Fixing bugged thread
Last Dungeon I did was impossible to get through. So if the reward is good at the end then its a good reason. I have never been able to get through one. Maybe cause I won’t run with anyone but my wife cause everyone else just takes all the loot before I can actually get to it. I can’t stay on my feet long enough and not a soul helps other players out they just run off do what they want and leave people behind.
Wut? Takes the loot? I think you’re playing some other game. Loot doesn’t work like that in GW2. Also, I’ve never heard of a dungeon run where group members leave you behind when you die/downed. That would get nothing accomplished.
I do believe that there should be better rewards for higher dungeons. Everyone runs the path of least resistance because doing AC is the same financial gain as doing Arah.
The game being “all about skins” has LONG sailed.
please give us examples of bosses that don’t use their mechanics if a party is stacked. I always see people say this yet they never give examples.
But pretty much everything in AC comes to mind offhand.
Since I don’t really do Arah I’ll only respond to this one.
AC P1: I’d really like to see a party stack Howling King and not get wiped. You’ve basically put the entire party into his optimal attack position. That’s not counting the adds that you have to kite in to the AOEs. The only trick to this wipe is start him at the far end of the room and melee him from all directions then dodge when he fires. Then it’s a face roll
AC P2: The only difficulty in this path is getting a party who know how to handle the traps and guns. If a player can’t dodge his rolling attack, which is his only attack, that player fails.
AC P3: The stack position in this path is just an exploit in the way the ceiling collapse works. Even if that were patched, keeping Rumblus close in so that Grast stays with you so he pops his shield all the time makes this a face roll.
Next?
Volkov is the most glaring one.
actually he has ranged and melee mechanics. at range he will burrow and one-shot you, in melee he applies massive bleeds. this isn’t negating mechanics, this is a boss adapting to your proximity.
Fyonna
if you stack in a corner she just jumps backwards in to the wall. still using her mechanic.
the destroyer
evolved or destroyer of worlds? they both fully use their mechanics.
Aldus
uses all of his mechanics when stacked.
tree bosse
use all of their mechanics when stacked.
Sorge
no idea, don’t do hotw p2/3.
So 5/6 of the bosses you mentioned aren’t even negated by stacking. try again please.
Well, try again at what? You can argue the mechanics are meant to be “Stack, no AoE!” but it still doesn’tchange the results does it?
Again, Volkov – He waddles his way down to you from his spawn point. Following the range/melee bit, he should burrow/bomb every time. Yet he only does if a player is outside the nook after his dialog ends. So he has an ability that wipes groups., but doesn’t use it cause everyone is in a tight little ball. Cause that would be mean or something.
Fyonna – her mechanics of her encounter are in the room. The one we pull her out of. Otherwise she is a sylvari with a basic melee attack that turns into a spider with a basic melee attack. But it hardly matters cause like everything else downscaled right now, she’s blown up.
Aldus’ mechanics I’d technically concede. But I somehow doubt a ‘fairly safe spot so long as you don’t target’ is on the level. Ditto with the trees. That’s the problem with most of this.
Fixing or ‘redesigning’ a couple of these fights to be less cheeseable would go along ways to helping with that ‘too easy not to do it’ bit.
only when dungeon runs guarantees a piece of armor per run then you can talk about reducing the gold reward, just 80 points for a dungeon is a but underwhelming if you ask me.
Now do it as simple mortals do – with a multi-language PUG of “play-how-I-want!” builds, and then come back.
I still don’t have all paths done simply because I want to “explore” them first instead of reading guides, but PUGs are awful and ragequit half-way so I just gave up trying.
Again, Volkov – He waddles his way down to you from his spawn point. Following the range/melee bit, he should burrow/bomb every time. Yet he only does if a player is outside the nook after his dialog ends. So he has an ability that wipes groups., but doesn’t use it cause everyone is in a tight little ball. Cause that would be mean or something.
Stacking isn’t negating it, what’s actually happening is you’re LoSing and while he’s aware that you’re nearby and trying to find a path to run to you from he doesn’t have direct line of sight for his burrow skill. Stack right in front of him at range and he’ll burrow and dumpster the whole party because he has line of sight.
Fyonna – her mechanics of her encounter are in the room. The one we pull her out of. Otherwise she is a sylvari with a basic melee attack that turns into a spider with a basic melee attack. But it hardly matters cause like everything else downscaled right now, she’s blown up.
We fight her in the middle and just stand in a circle and avoid hitting the eggs. She does her range attack, transforms in to a spider and does a melee attack. She’s harmless no matter where you fight her, stacking is not an issue.
Aldus’ mechanics I’d technically concede. But I somehow doubt a ‘fairly safe spot so long as you don’t target’ is on the level. Ditto with the trees. That’s the problem with most of this.
Aldus you attack on the stairs and reflect his projectiles. Then you try to clear his ice shield ASAP, and you dodge out of his chill AOE when it comes up. There’s nowhere stacking mitigates damage here.
For the tree if you don’t have it blinded it’ll throw you in the trash can with bleeds, and on the path with the mortars around it you need reflects. For the other one with the mosshearts, stability is useful. IIRC you need blinds to prevent the tree applying bleeds in both paths. What most likely happened is you got carried and you didn’t see it doing anything so you immediately drew the conclusion that stacking = cheesing.
So once more – try again please. All you’re showing is that you don’t understand LoSing, stacking or any of the boss’ mechanics, and you just see people sitting in a ball and think that lets you just blow through everything.
(edited by maha.7902)
please give us examples of bosses that don’t use their mechanics if a party is stacked. I always see people say this yet they never give examples.
But pretty much everything in AC comes to mind offhand.
Since I don’t really do Arah I’ll only respond to this one.
AC P1: I’d really like to see a party stack Howling King and not get wiped. You’ve basically put the entire party into his optimal attack position. That’s not counting the adds that you have to kite in to the AOEs. The only trick to this wipe is start him at the far end of the room and melee him from all directions then dodge when he fires. Then it’s a face roll
AC P2: The only difficulty in this path is getting a party who know how to handle the traps and guns. If a player can’t dodge his rolling attack, which is his only attack, that player fails.
AC P3: The stack position in this path is just an exploit in the way the ceiling collapse works. Even if that were patched, keeping Rumblus close in so that Grast stays with you so he pops his shield all the time makes this a face roll.
Next?
The Howling King dies to zerk groups in around 10’ish seconds in an honest fight. If you go into the bottom/right corner and FGS your face into the wall, its health bar literally drops like a brick. His adds and attacks aren’t even an issue anymore. His health is next to nothing compared to what five dps players drop. Same with the ghost eater. Stack in the pilliar, one player lures, boss dies, gold get.
As long as the pillar blocks rocks and keeps you from being knocked too far away, you don’t even need the NPC at Rumblus. He doesn’t seem to die as quick at least.
I will stick to not doing dungeon runs….Cause I have had nothing but horrible experiences with them and people I do not know.
What content is more challenging than Dungeons?
Dungeons are fine. The problem is there aren’t other paths with any sort of ‘daily’ limit like that for people that don’t enjoy dungeons.
I think that we want to make MMOs ‘Lil Americas’ is kinda sad. I think greed is sad. I don’t particular think there is anything special about a dungeon that should reward someone more for their time than anything else that also takes time to complete. I think risk/reward is a terrible paradigm.
But, that’s just an opinion. And I’m sure I’m in the minority. Dungeons are too big to fail. Free markets. NASCAR. Flag pins. Mission Accomplished. Gordon Gekko.
Peace.
Dungeon rewards are fine, if you take an average group say it takes them 10-15 mins per path, allowing for errors etc, you can run say, AC p1/2, hotw P1, CoF P1,2 in say 90 mins, this would get you about 5-7gold + drops
Thats however 5-7 new generated gold, thats the problem.
Do the FGS train, and you have maybe 1g as new generated gold in that time +drops, maybe even less now. The last time i did the train was before the last nerf, and there i had made 2g30s pure gold after 4 hours.
And there are also not 1000s of people do the train. In EU we have normally maybe 2-3 instances now of FGS .. all in all i would say there are maybe 100-200 people doing the train at the main time.
/delete this nonsense
In theory, reworking the dungeon reward would be a really good thing. Its true that right now, Dungeon reward is high compare to any other source of income. Fractal is rewarding when you still need some ascended stuff (like rings and back item), but rapidly become pretty unrewarding once you reach level 50. sPvP and WvW is getting better, but that is still lower income. It would be nice if the game had a real balance between challenge and reward. The more challenging and risky something is, the more rewarding it is. So that every part of the game feal rewarding to a certain population of player. But the way Anet handle things in the game is only nerfing stuff that become too much rewarding, they are not balancing.
Dungeon rewards are fine, if you take an average group say it takes them 10-15 mins per path, allowing for errors etc, you can run say, AC p1/2, hotw P1, CoF P1,2 in say 90 mins, this would get you about 5-7gold + drops
Thats however 5-7 new generated gold, thats the problem.
Do the FGS train, and you have maybe 1g as new generated gold in that time +drops, maybe even less now. The last time i did the train was before the last nerf, and there i had made 2g30s pure gold after 4 hours.
And there are also not 1000s of people do the train. In EU we have normally maybe 2-3 instances now of FGS .. all in all i would say there are maybe 100-200 people doing the train at the main time.
I would argue there are a lot more people on trains than there are in dungeons in the NA servers. The dungeon LFG is completely empty when it’s not US prime time, however there are trains in QD and FGS 24/7.
And, as I stated before, ArenaNet chose to nerf train loot instead of dungeon loot, so I see that as suggestive that dungeons are not the primary contributor to inflation.
Dungeon rewards are fine, if you take an average group say it takes them 10-15 mins per path, allowing for errors etc, you can run say, AC p1/2, hotw P1, CoF P1,2 in say 90 mins, this would get you about 5-7gold + drops
Thats however 5-7 new generated gold, thats the problem.
Do the FGS train, and you have maybe 1g as new generated gold in that time +drops, maybe even less now. The last time i did the train was before the last nerf, and there i had made 2g30s pure gold after 4 hours.
And there are also not 1000s of people do the train. In EU we have normally maybe 2-3 instances now of FGS .. all in all i would say there are maybe 100-200 people doing the train at the main time.
I would argue there are a lot more people on trains than there are in dungeons in the NA servers. The dungeon LFG is completely empty when it’s not US prime time, however there are trains in QD and FGS 24/7.
And, as I stated before, ArenaNet chose to nerf train loot instead of dungeon loot, so I see that as suggestive that dungeons are not the primary contributor to inflation.
@ bold, no longer exist, and FGS is a shadow if its former self.
Also, champ coin drop has been greatly nerfed, most of the time you only get 1s and some change now, every once in a while you’ll get 7s+.
Please, no nerfing dungeon rewards. It’s the only way for unlucky non-tp players to make at least a little money. The effort imo is in balance with the rewards.
I would argue there are a lot more people on trains than there are in dungeons in the NA servers. The dungeon LFG is completely empty when it’s not US prime time,
Ya, LFG usually fill up in second. That’s why you almost never see any LFG because they are already full. Also, you don’t see group that are complete without using the LFG (mainly guild group). I’m using LFG for not more than half of my run.
Also, champ coin drop has been greatly nerfed, most of the time you only get 1s and some change now, every once in a while you’ll get 7s+.
Yeah .. last time i killed the Troll in FGS i got 1s22c, 3 Bloodstone and a green item.
And even John Smith has said before the last nerf, that running the train is by far not a good way to make money.
Would be interesting to hear some numbers from John here btw.
Dungeon rewards are fine, if you take an average group say it takes them 10-15 mins per path, allowing for errors etc, you can run say, AC p1/2, hotw P1, CoF P1,2 in say 90 mins, this would get you about 5-7gold + drops
Thats however 5-7 new generated gold, thats the problem.
Do the FGS train, and you have maybe 1g as new generated gold in that time +drops, maybe even less now. The last time i did the train was before the last nerf, and there i had made 2g30s pure gold after 4 hours.
And there are also not 1000s of people do the train. In EU we have normally maybe 2-3 instances now of FGS .. all in all i would say there are maybe 100-200 people doing the train at the main time.
You do realize that creation of money is necessary for an economy to work right? That aside, considering gems are purchasable which can be instantly converted to gold, the whole premise of “newly generated money” via dungeons being a bad thing is rendered completely moot. In half a minute I can spend $10.00 at the gemstore and convert that to ~70g. If I wanted to earn that in game I would have to spend on average 90min/7g ( to use someone’s figures earlier, which are fair if you have a decent group and focus on 5-6 easy paths). That would be 900min+ of dungeon running (spread over multiple days due to daily cap of course) to match what someone with an extra $10 to blow on the gem store could get instantly, not to mention someone with $20 or even $50 to spend on gems.
Now of course I realize that 90min/7g would need to be multiplied by 5 people to compare money generated accurately to my one person buying gems example, but I’m inclined to believe there are far more people buying gems and converting them to gold than we could ever realize. Simply from the fact that gold farming typically gets nerfed and more and more stuff are added to gem store, more so than any content that’s for sure.
Dungeon rewards are fine, if anything they should be higher, and if not dungeon rewards being higher, then there needs to be a viable method for a solo player to create money outside of TP flipping, gem store purchasing, and WvW/EoTM train, because right now it’s pretty much gem store if you want to play by your lonesome.
That aside, considering gems are purchasable which can be instantly converted to gold, the whole premise of “newly generated money” via dungeons being a bad thing is rendered completely moot. In half a minute I can spend $10.00 at the gemstore and convert that to ~70g.
Totally wrong .. the gold is not generated out of thin air, you just get the gold that some other people pay to buy gems, and even there a part of that gold is removed from the economy.
That aside, considering gems are purchasable which can be instantly converted to gold, the whole premise of “newly generated money” via dungeons being a bad thing is rendered completely moot. In half a minute I can spend $10.00 at the gemstore and convert that to ~70g.
Totally wrong .. the gold is not generated out of thin air, you just get the gold that some other people pay to buy gems, and even there a part of that gold is removed from the economy.
You have it backwards.
Obvious troll. go back and play the TP
Where’s my bingo card?
You can rant, pout and insult all you like. But most dungeons do take less time and skill than about any other aspect in the game , yet pay out considerably more. That hardly seems a good thing.
But I am sorry if that upsets your tinfoil hats, or “I hate this game/company yet continue to play!” sensibilities.
Oh wow I nearly chocked on my food when I read this.
Less time and skill that’s about any other aspects ? Yeah because meta events in PvE are really hard these days, and farming EotM is really hard to do…
What would be nice however, is for Anet to once and for all fix all those little bugs and bad AI in their dungeons.
That aside, considering gems are purchasable which can be instantly converted to gold, the whole premise of “newly generated money” via dungeons being a bad thing is rendered completely moot. In half a minute I can spend $10.00 at the gemstore and convert that to ~70g.
Totally wrong .. the gold is not generated out of thin air, you just get the gold that some other people pay to buy gems, and even there a part of that gold is removed from the economy.
You have it backwards.
Beldin is most likely 100% correct (I caveat as we don’t know the full coding/operation of the system but can infer it based on ArenaNet explanations and the historical movement of the exchange rate). All gem to gold conversions utilize gold that was created by players in the past and traded in for gems in the past. The only thing that is created out of thin air as part of the transaction is gems (when real money is used to acquire them). Once you have gems, you can trade them for a portion of the pool of gold that other players had previously traded for gems.
On Topic: I do think that dungeon runs are probably close to being the number one source of generated coin at this point, if not in total than at least for individuals. That means that dungeon rewards are probably pretty high on the list of places that will receive a nerf should the economy warrant a reduction in gold faucets. I’m not leveling an opine as to whether the effort to payout ratio is “fair”, nor whether any changes to gold generation are needed.
(edited by mtpelion.4562)
That aside, considering gems are purchasable which can be instantly converted to gold, the whole premise of “newly generated money” via dungeons being a bad thing is rendered completely moot. In half a minute I can spend $10.00 at the gemstore and convert that to ~70g.
Totally wrong .. the gold is not generated out of thin air, you just get the gold that some other people pay to buy gems, and even there a part of that gold is removed from the economy.
You have it backwards.
Beldin is most likely 100% correct (I caveat as we don’t know the full coding/operation of the system but can infer it based on ArenaNet explanations and the historical movement of the exchange rate). All gem to gold conversions utilize gold that was created by players in the past and traded in for gems in the past. The only thing that is created out of thin air as part of the transaction is gems (when real money is used to acquire them). Once you have gems, you can trade them for a portion of the pool of gold that other players had previously traded for gems.
I was pretty sure I saw the BLTC forum frequenters say that the gems being bought for gold were gems provided by the people who converted gems to gold, and that the more people who use RL money for gold the lower the gold to gem rate becomes.
I do not know for sure but I did think they did.
That aside, considering gems are purchasable which can be instantly converted to gold, the whole premise of “newly generated money” via dungeons being a bad thing is rendered completely moot. In half a minute I can spend $10.00 at the gemstore and convert that to ~70g.
Totally wrong .. the gold is not generated out of thin air, you just get the gold that some other people pay to buy gems, and even there a part of that gold is removed from the economy.
You have it backwards.
Beldin is most likely 100% correct (I caveat as we don’t know the full coding/operation of the system but can infer it based on ArenaNet explanations and the historical movement of the exchange rate). All gem to gold conversions utilize gold that was created by players in the past and traded in for gems in the past. The only thing that is created out of thin air as part of the transaction is gems (when real money is used to acquire them). Once you have gems, you can trade them for a portion of the pool of gold that other players had previously traded for gems.
I was pretty sure I saw the BLTC forum frequenters say that the gems being bought for gold were gems provided by the people who converted gems to gold, and that the more people who use RL money for gold the lower the gold to gem rate becomes.
I do not know for sure but I did think they did.
All gold is created by the players when they do things that reward gold.
All gems are created by ArenaNet when players buy them with cash.
All gold to gem conversions take existing gold out of the player’s bank and put it on the exchange and remove some number of gems from the exchange and add them to the player’s bank.
All gem to gold conversions take existing gems out of the player’s bank and put them on the exchange and remove some number of gold from the exchange and add it to the player’s bank.
I believe that is what Beldin was referring to. Using your credit card does not create any coins. It creates gems which can be traded for coins.
That aside, considering gems are purchasable which can be instantly converted to gold, the whole premise of “newly generated money” via dungeons being a bad thing is rendered completely moot. In half a minute I can spend $10.00 at the gemstore and convert that to ~70g.
Totally wrong .. the gold is not generated out of thin air, you just get the gold that some other people pay to buy gems, and even there a part of that gold is removed from the economy.
You have it backwards.
Beldin is most likely 100% correct (I caveat as we don’t know the full coding/operation of the system but can infer it based on ArenaNet explanations and the historical movement of the exchange rate). All gem to gold conversions utilize gold that was created by players in the past and traded in for gems in the past. The only thing that is created out of thin air as part of the transaction is gems (when real money is used to acquire them). Once you have gems, you can trade them for a portion of the pool of gold that other players had previously traded for gems.
I was pretty sure I saw the BLTC forum frequenters say that the gems being bought for gold were gems provided by the people who converted gems to gold, and that the more people who use RL money for gold the lower the gold to gem rate becomes.
I do not know for sure but I did think they did.
All gold is created by the players when they do things that reward gold.
All gems are created by ArenaNet when players buy them with cash.
All gold to gem conversions take existing gold out of the player’s bank and put it on the exchange and remove some number of gems from the exchange and add them to the player’s bank.
All gem to gold conversions take existing gems out of the player’s bank and put them on the exchange and remove some number of gold from the exchange and add it to the player’s bank.I believe that is what Beldin was referring to. Using your credit card does not create any coins. It creates gems which can be traded for coins.
See if your 2 top points are true, no one could initiate the gem to gold gold to gem first.
That aside, considering gems are purchasable which can be instantly converted to gold, the whole premise of “newly generated money” via dungeons being a bad thing is rendered completely moot. In half a minute I can spend $10.00 at the gemstore and convert that to ~70g.
Totally wrong .. the gold is not generated out of thin air, you just get the gold that some other people pay to buy gems, and even there a part of that gold is removed from the economy.
You have it backwards.
Beldin is most likely 100% correct (I caveat as we don’t know the full coding/operation of the system but can infer it based on ArenaNet explanations and the historical movement of the exchange rate). All gem to gold conversions utilize gold that was created by players in the past and traded in for gems in the past. The only thing that is created out of thin air as part of the transaction is gems (when real money is used to acquire them). Once you have gems, you can trade them for a portion of the pool of gold that other players had previously traded for gems.
I was pretty sure I saw the BLTC forum frequenters say that the gems being bought for gold were gems provided by the people who converted gems to gold, and that the more people who use RL money for gold the lower the gold to gem rate becomes.
I do not know for sure but I did think they did.
All gold is created by the players when they do things that reward gold.
All gems are created by ArenaNet when players buy them with cash.
All gold to gem conversions take existing gold out of the player’s bank and put it on the exchange and remove some number of gems from the exchange and add them to the player’s bank.
All gem to gold conversions take existing gems out of the player’s bank and put them on the exchange and remove some number of gold from the exchange and add it to the player’s bank.I believe that is what Beldin was referring to. Using your credit card does not create any coins. It creates gems which can be traded for coins.
See if your 2 top points are true, no one could initiate the gem to gold gold to gem first.
That is correct. ArenaNet seeded the exchange with some gold and gems back at launch. Since then it’s been run by the rules above.
That aside, considering gems are purchasable which can be instantly converted to gold, the whole premise of “newly generated money” via dungeons being a bad thing is rendered completely moot. In half a minute I can spend $10.00 at the gemstore and convert that to ~70g.
Totally wrong .. the gold is not generated out of thin air, you just get the gold that some other people pay to buy gems, and even there a part of that gold is removed from the economy.
actually, it is generated out of thin air. however, there is an equation that decides how much to take out of the market when someone wants to go from gold>gems.
there is no gold in fort knox
there is no actual gem bank. If there was, one wouldnt be able to buy gold at the launch of the game. and they would have issues whenever the current balance of gems and gold buying was out of wack.
So yes, they can make money out of thin air, but some is destroyed whenever people decide to buy gems with gold. Which is doing more? i really have no idea, perhaps the equation balances it pretty well, perhaps not.
That aside, considering gems are purchasable which can be instantly converted to gold, the whole premise of “newly generated money” via dungeons being a bad thing is rendered completely moot. In half a minute I can spend $10.00 at the gemstore and convert that to ~70g.
Totally wrong .. the gold is not generated out of thin air, you just get the gold that some other people pay to buy gems, and even there a part of that gold is removed from the economy.
actually, it is generated out of thin air. however, there is an equation that decides how much to take out of the market when someone wants to go from gold>gems.
there is no gold in fort knox
there is no actual gem bank. If there was, one wouldnt be able to buy gold at the launch of the game. and they would have issues whenever the current balance of gems and gold buying was out of wack.
So yes, they can make money out of thin air, but some is destroyed whenever people decide to buy gems with gold. Which is doing more? i really have no idea, perhaps the equation balances it pretty well, perhaps not.
This is what I thought… but mtpelion has some good arguments
That aside, considering gems are purchasable which can be instantly converted to gold, the whole premise of “newly generated money” via dungeons being a bad thing is rendered completely moot. In half a minute I can spend $10.00 at the gemstore and convert that to ~70g.
Totally wrong .. the gold is not generated out of thin air, you just get the gold that some other people pay to buy gems, and even there a part of that gold is removed from the economy.
You have it backwards.
Beldin is most likely 100% correct (I caveat as we don’t know the full coding/operation of the system but can infer it based on ArenaNet explanations and the historical movement of the exchange rate). All gem to gold conversions utilize gold that was created by players in the past and traded in for gems in the past. The only thing that is created out of thin air as part of the transaction is gems (when real money is used to acquire them). Once you have gems, you can trade them for a portion of the pool of gold that other players had previously traded for gems.
I was pretty sure I saw the BLTC forum frequenters say that the gems being bought for gold were gems provided by the people who converted gems to gold, and that the more people who use RL money for gold the lower the gold to gem rate becomes.
I do not know for sure but I did think they did.
All gold is created by the players when they do things that reward gold.
All gems are created by ArenaNet when players buy them with cash.
All gold to gem conversions take existing gold out of the player’s bank and put it on the exchange and remove some number of gems from the exchange and add them to the player’s bank.
All gem to gold conversions take existing gems out of the player’s bank and put them on the exchange and remove some number of gold from the exchange and add it to the player’s bank.I believe that is what Beldin was referring to. Using your credit card does not create any coins. It creates gems which can be traded for coins.
See if your 2 top points are true, no one could initiate the gem to gold gold to gem first.
That is correct. ArenaNet seeded the exchange with some gold and gems back at launch. Since then it’s been run by the rules above.
no they didnt.
At some point they revealed that the gem to gold system is ruled by an algorithm that determines the value based on some values, and that they can alter those values if they feel like it.
its not a fort knox system its an equation
the system will never no matter what run out of gems. the system will never no matter what run out of gold. It will create it as it sees fit, and try to use the equations for the value to make the output at acceptable levels.
That aside, considering gems are purchasable which can be instantly converted to gold, the whole premise of “newly generated money” via dungeons being a bad thing is rendered completely moot. In half a minute I can spend $10.00 at the gemstore and convert that to ~70g.
Totally wrong .. the gold is not generated out of thin air, you just get the gold that some other people pay to buy gems, and even there a part of that gold is removed from the economy.
This buy/sell gimmick they have means nothing, it’s an illusion of balance. It’s not like the TP where there are only X gems and Y gold available. There are far more people buying gems and converting to gold than the other way around. It would never be able to sustain itself. People typically only buy gems with gold when something cool comes out on the gem store (thus variable/low demand on gems), versus year-round need for gold (extremely high demand), because you need gold for everything in this game.
At some point you would click convert 1000 gems to gold and get hit with “no gold available” if it relied solely on people “buying” gems with gold to feed the conversions, because the need for gold is far higher than the need for gems. The gold that people are converting to gems would never, ever be able to supply the people buying gems with CCs and then hitting the convert to gold button, because there is a relatively endless supply of real life money that will continue to generate these magical gems. You would run out of gem “buyers” and then effectively out of gold with which to convert your gems to. The only way to make it so Anet can continue to let you convert your CC-purchased arbitrarily created gems is to have an endless supply of gold that is not tied to anything but air.
I’m postulating of course since Anet has never released hard numbers, but if you honestly believe it is being balanced by its own gold pool, then I don’t know what to say honestly.
Please, no nerfing dungeon rewards. It’s the only way for unlucky non-tp players to make at least a little money. The effort imo is in balance with the rewards.
That is the problem. Dungeons are the most rewarding. We can dump a few hours into them and come out with much, much more gold/reward than we can in wvw or real pvp, or anything else. Making other stuff as good just means gold is even further devalued.
People rant about the blade shard vendor. Of course they’re worth nothing, people were running around with thousands of them. If you only had a stack or two, then you were boned by the guys who grinded their faces off. This is the path gold is on.
But that is part of the bigger gold issue. Right now, dungeons have things that could be fixed to bring them back into line. In my opinion the AC troll popping up in HotW is perfect fix. It made a fast, but boring path more lively and more interesting. However, pugs seem to have dropped it like a brick. And why not? Faster, easier paths still exist.
So its logical to instead bring everything else up to the match the
disproportional element. Well. That mindset certainly worked out well for Guild Wars pvp back in the day.The new player bit can be argued many different ways. Catacombs is the Queensdale of dungeons, and it pretty much suffers similar issues when you bring up new players. Perhaps even more so, considering no other dungeon compares in reward/time/difficulty ratio.
Crying nerf is also fairly meaningless. Was HotW1 nerfed by adding the AC troll? Was SE nerfed by making the blockades unavoidable? TA-Foward, with the silly wall-climb? Most dungeons have similar things these days. All of which decrease the challenge, speed up the run, and further that reward gap.
Right now, a number of dungeon bosses do not use their most devastating abilities if a group stacks. That is silly, and the very definition of exploiting a weak AI. Why exactly would you want this to continue, let alone be the most rewarding venue of play? “Stack in corner, collect gold” is a fairly crappy game.
Ignoring the poorly worded insults. ANet has the data. They can and will do what they will with the rates. What I’m telling them is that as a player, this too easy and too good to pass up. And that raises some pretty severe concerns about the lifespan of the game.
Yes, I want AI to be more challenging.
But, how does that justify lower rewards?
I can’t even believe what I just read.
Dungeon running can barely make a fraction of the profit TP players can. And you want to reduce the already limited amount of loot we can get in game? I mean the gold reward is LIMITED to once per day. You… no. Please don’t ask for the one thing in the game that gives an okay reward to be nerfed. That’s the most absurd thing I’ve ever seen on this forum. And that counts the feeling of felankor.
I’m not agreeing DG rewards are too good, in fact, rewards for beating stuff like Arah or TA Aether is horribly underwhelming.
But TP players make more money than anyone else in any MMO, because unlike PvEing, you can also make losses.
I’m not going to pretend like I know about TP flipping or whatever but what I do know is that Nerfing dungeon rewards is probably the worst idea ever. Because it’s players making gold from applying teamwork and skill to playing the actual game.
Meh. Whatever. Dumb thread is dumb.
Of course it’s dumb. But he does have a point though.. in a way.
For example, why the heck does AC3 have the same payout as Arah3. AC3 is a 15mins < faceroll where every fight consists of stack>faceroll>win or just ‘we got an ele’ and instawin, Arah3 does actually take a bit of skill.
Then Arah 3 should have a better gold reward, instead of AC having less. Those gold rewards were established too long ago. They established them when cof was farmed and the new AC was complained about. There’s the issue. The gold rewards have not kept up with the changes in the dungeons and within the community.
I’m still into the idea of giving dungeons unique tradable drops (which you have a chance to actually see dropping in this lifetime), instead of just upping the gold reward on everything, because in the famous words of our Pact Marshall: ‘(just adding more hold into the economy) won’t end well’.
Well look at the Aetherpath drops and fractal weapons. They’re highly sought after… but. Rng is just a terrible way to reward players. There has to be a static reward. But I’m all for unique drops in addition to existing gold rewards.
However… look at dungeon recipes. The right ones can make dedicated lucky dungeon runners filthy rich. So at least there are those.
Hence ‘(which you have a chance to actually see dropping in this lifetime)’. Aetherpath rewards are just RNG taken to the extreme, its either nothing at all or huge money.
And you just reminded me that I double-clicked an Infinity Loop recipe onto a character with 3 Jewelcrafting my accident ._.
That aside, considering gems are purchasable which can be instantly converted to gold, the whole premise of “newly generated money” via dungeons being a bad thing is rendered completely moot. In half a minute I can spend $10.00 at the gemstore and convert that to ~70g.
Totally wrong .. the gold is not generated out of thin air, you just get the gold that some other people pay to buy gems, and even there a part of that gold is removed from the economy.
You have it backwards.
Beldin is most likely 100% correct (I caveat as we don’t know the full coding/operation of the system but can infer it based on ArenaNet explanations and the historical movement of the exchange rate). All gem to gold conversions utilize gold that was created by players in the past and traded in for gems in the past. The only thing that is created out of thin air as part of the transaction is gems (when real money is used to acquire them). Once you have gems, you can trade them for a portion of the pool of gold that other players had previously traded for gems.
I was pretty sure I saw the BLTC forum frequenters say that the gems being bought for gold were gems provided by the people who converted gems to gold, and that the more people who use RL money for gold the lower the gold to gem rate becomes.
I do not know for sure but I did think they did.
All gold is created by the players when they do things that reward gold.
All gems are created by ArenaNet when players buy them with cash.
All gold to gem conversions take existing gold out of the player’s bank and put it on the exchange and remove some number of gems from the exchange and add them to the player’s bank.
All gem to gold conversions take existing gems out of the player’s bank and put them on the exchange and remove some number of gold from the exchange and add it to the player’s bank.I believe that is what Beldin was referring to. Using your credit card does not create any coins. It creates gems which can be traded for coins.
See if your 2 top points are true, no one could initiate the gem to gold gold to gem first.
That is correct. ArenaNet seeded the exchange with some gold and gems back at launch. Since then it’s been run by the rules above.
no they didnt.
At some point they revealed that the gem to gold system is ruled by an algorithm that determines the value based on some values, and that they can alter those values if they feel like it.
its not a fort knox system its an equationthe system will never no matter what run out of gems. the system will never no matter what run out of gold. It will create it as it sees fit, and try to use the equations for the value to make the output at acceptable levels.
By seeding the exchange, he simply means initializing 2 variables to be greater than 0 for that algorithm. You’re both in agreement.
As to your second part. You don’t know that.
It could be that as the virtual supply of Gems get’s to be almost 0, the price would tend to infinity.
no they didnt.
At some point they revealed that the gem to gold system is ruled by an algorithm that determines the value based on some values, and that they can alter those values if they feel like it.
its not a fort knox system its an equationthe system will never no matter what run out of gems. the system will never no matter what run out of gold. It will create it as it sees fit, and try to use the equations for the value to make the output at acceptable levels.
I was breaking it down via an allegory. Of course everything is moving around as bits of 1s and 0s in an algorithm. There is no fort knox because there is no physical coin or gem. The “bank” is a purely conceptual one that exists within the margins set forth by the formula.
The functionality that we have experience with works as described above.
Though I do wonder what would happen if the “bank” ran out of one or the other. You’d have the potential for a very fast paced gold faucet or sink (depending on which way it went) which I’d imagine has some sort of failsafe to prevent.
Please, no nerfing dungeon rewards. It’s the only way for unlucky non-tp players to make at least a little money. The effort imo is in balance with the rewards.
That is the problem. Dungeons are the most rewarding. We can dump a few hours into them and come out with much, much more gold/reward than we can in wvw or real pvp, or anything else.
That is true only if you look at running a single path. Once you start talking about “few hours dumped into them”, other activities become more appealing. And one of the strong contestants here is WvW – the EotM train.
The “gold issue” you keep referring to does exist, but it has nothing to do with dungeon rewards being too good. What we need is just the rewards to offer more material, non-gold goods. Especially since converting those goods to gold via TP actually destroy gold, due to taxes.
Also, dungeons are in no way the main gold source on this game. I bet that for each person making 2g in 15 minutes of a dungeon run, there are at least 200 people that at the same time gained 1s or more by simply vendoring their drops from normal, non-farming open world activity.
Don’t want to throw out giant paragraphs, but the gold reward from dungeons seem awfully good. Maybe you guys at ANet already know this. But as a player I can say its easy to pass up other stuff just to make sure the daily “easy” dungeons get done.
I’m not an economist, but I’m pretty sure inflation is a thing. Thousands of gold entering into the world each day probably isn’t helping it retain much value. This makes the gap between dungeon rewards and everything else even seem much bigger, too.
Catacombs in particular seems like it pays way too much for how quick-n-easy it is these days. Between ferocity scaling down so favorably, FGS-rush/frostbow spam, the two mid-bosses being cheeseable (corner stack, no AOEs), and the end bosses melting, even a basic pug can clear all three paths pretty quick. – Maybe drop it to 50s, or fix the bosses. This might drive off the dedicated dungeoneers , but it might become a bit more low-level friendly as a result.
Sorrow’s is another standout. Path two and three are about right. But path 1 is silly. Actually, a good chunk of the late night LFGs are now people skipping Tazza, and farming bags over and over. For the most part is comes down to the end boss being fairly easy (or skippable), and there being no need to fight the trash mobs along the route. Not quite as easy as AC or COF, but the bag thing should probably be looked into.
Anyway. Overall the rewards seem out of proportion given the challenge/length to other stuff in the game. Maybe the internal data shows otherwise, but that’s my take.
(Might be nice to have an Emyreal sink or two. Those are piling up a a wee bit, too.)
Nope. I actually like being rewarded. ArenaNet has nerfed enough profitable avenues, let’s not tempt them to nerf more.
its a troll. dum dums.
Dungeons should get an automatic dynamic reward calculation system.
They should already be getting metrics of how many people do dungeons and how long they take. Maybe even how often they get defeats and even wipes, or even how many of the enemies in the dungeon are defeated.
Once they get metrics from the entire palyerbase, they should dynamically rig them with the rewards, and calculate each week the rewards for the dungeons, between a minimum cap and a maximum cap.
Do a dungeon that everyone does very often, you get less rewards than if you do one that everyone avoids.
Dungeon completion could also be taken into account.
Skip all events and enemies, you get less rewards than if you cleared everything. Killing every single thing in the dungeon could get a weekly “Vanquisher Bonus” for those that value thoroughness over speed.
They could even make it so the NPCs in the entrance talking about the dungeon tell you the possible rewards for story and each path, calling them something like “dungeon bounties”.
(edited by MithranArkanere.8957)
DArn it befouls here now.
OP confirmed cleric bearbow open world boss farmer. I’m sorry the rares you get are not enough. Maybe the “skillfull” WvW AoE spam while in PvT is more to your liking.
Though I usually encourage discussions, as they often produce solutions to existing problems and ideas for new content, this thread looks like it was written to purposely upset people or by someone with little knowledge of the game’s mechanics. As such, I don’t think that it’s worth the time or the effort to try and squeeze meaningful arguments from its creator.
Whether you agree or disagree with me, it’s up to you.
(It’s still a fun read, though).
I just want to say to the OP that you are probably posting this in the wrong place. It is almost like going to a conference for the 1% and telling them, “hey you are being payed too much, I suggest we cut your salaries by X%.” Dungeon farming is the bread and butter for most of the people who dwells in this section of the forums. Personally I agree that dungeon rewards are really good.
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