Guild Wars 2

Just so I can get this clear in my head and reassure some guildmates, If we alternate between, lets say, Twilight Arbor up path, and Twilight Arbor forward up path, we will see no diminished returns?

We don’t mind giving feedback, but are you really listening?

There is a differnce between difficult and time consuming / expensive to run. The reason many people are peeved at CoF is because it was generating money which negated their cost’s from dying.

As it currently stands, more and more dungeon’s are going to be affected by changes of a few, enough that only the most dedicated people will want to bother with them.

Bring back the fun… let us play without worrying about money all the time or getting frustrated so much.

After reading so many post’s today, I think it’s the money that’s causing most issue’s. We don’t want to be struggling all the time, hence why people are looking for short cuts.

Story mode i can perfectly understand. I would also like to understand the extent of the dungeon repeating nerf.

Was the coin/token/drop rate nerfed at all for the first two runs of a chain? It seems to be implied that on the third run the coin/token/drop rate (any combination of these) would decrease and that there is no alterations in rates for the first two runs compared to pre-patch. Is this true?

As well, as Clinth.9548 mentioned, would there be any penalty to run 2 TA path 1, then 1 TA path 2, and return to TA path 1 afterwards?

Hello,

I was actually going to post a question regarding what you constitute as fast, but you have answered that in your post. However, I would like to address one point.

I think the 30 minutes limitation implemented as the threshold for speed run is too high. The group I run with can clear both TA Up and Forward up in roughly 30 minutes. If the change is working as intended, it would mean we will have to pace ourselves instead of just going all-out all the time, which is more fun for us that way. I can see why the diminishing return on repeating is implemented as you want variety, but I would strongly encourage re-evaluating the threshold time considered to be a fast run. TA wouldn’t be the only issue. We can clear AC in less than 30, maybe even 25 depending on route. We are getting close to or below 30 with various other dungeons as well

If possible, please reconsider the threshold.

Thank you,
TJL

JonPeters.5630:

it is not our intention to make them feel like a grind.

then why did you make gear cost a trillion of 1 token for 1 dungeon

So now we have:
1. No gold from dungeons
2. No exp from dungeons
3. No fun from dungeons
4. No drop from dungeons
5. Ugly skins from tokens
6. more deaths because of dungeon difficulty after patch

nothing to do here.

Well if you say is not intended to be a grind, why Gear cost huge amount of Karma, Dungeon Tokens Gold or whatever, end game in GW2 is like another Korean MMO sit down and Farm Farm Farm = Boring.

I’m not saying should be easy, but actualy rewards from dungeons = nothing was no upgrade for new lvl 80’s they just farmin for stupid large amount of tokens to get geared.

I feel that fights should reward some measure of skill at the very least.

For example, Smoke Lords in CoF hit for too much damage given how hard their attacks are to spot. Given the damage output they do, their attacks should be telegraphed better (or be more obvious) such that the skilled player would be able to dodge accordingly.

Right now, it would be a do-or-die thing as their attacks can not be spotted amidst all the explosions and particle effects flying around.

I also really enjoyed rooms such as the Bomb diffusing room in CoF and would like to see some of the more boring sections of dungeons reworked to have unique mechanics like this whereby coordination was an integral part of the dungeon experience and had very much less to do with your profession/gear — pressure plates, cooperative puzzles would be very much welcome over the set-standard tank-and-spank fights we have right now.

Additionally, rather than having the mobs spawn directly in the room where Magg sets up his Kaboomium, it would possibly be wiser to have them approach the door in (slower) waves from the Bomb room (would also make more sense). This would play a double factor to mitigating how near-impossible it is to do right now as well as providing adequate groups the capacity to kill them fast enough (i.e: the time taken for a wave to get to the defence would be the timeframe needed to kill the current wave, much like a tower defence game).

I did TA explo twice with difffent paths and still got diminished returns. (Only half the xp and gold for the 2nd dungeon)

Olgit.8629:

The reason many people are peeved at CoF is because it was generating money which negated their cost’s from dying.

Simple solution to that. Learn how to do the dungeons properly and you won’t die. The group I do Twilight Arbor with used to die a heck of a lot at first. Once we took a step back, and analysed why we were dying, we took steps to mitigate that, and now its rare for us to even have 1 death in a run.

I don’t understand whats wrong with generating money in a dungeon?! I’ve only run AC myself, story mode plenty of times and explorer once, and for all story mode runs but once Ive come out with extra money.

I really don’t understand these changes. All I want to do is run dungeons, but now you are making them less worthy of my time? There is a point where lack of reward is going to outweigh everything else. I don’t care how “fun” they are, if I wanted to just play a game without feeling that my character is advancing and getting more powerful from nice drops/xp Id just play a polished and much more mechanically forgiving single player plate-former game.

JonPeters.5630:

Hey all, it is my fault the updates to those 3 dungeon chains did not get into to the notes. There is a lot going on right now and as we establish our patch process sometimes things will slip through the cracks. I wanted to shed some light on the dungeon speed clear stuff as well. You should not see any diminished returns unless you.

1) Run the same exact chain over twice in a row
2) Complete multiple dungeons in 30 minutes or less each.

We also reduced the rewards of completing story mode, once you have already completed it, because the rewards for story mode were never intended to be a high as they were.

At this time, dungeons should one of the most efficient ways to level and get gold, and it is not our intention to make them feel like a grind.

So then the worse thing to do is setting the dungeon gear to 1380 tokens which is way too much. That is something that must be lowered if you don’t want your players to feel like they are grinding in a korean farmfest.

This CoF thing was so far only thing that brought me bit of fun, by beeing rewarding.

You took pretty much only joyfull thing at endgame part from loads of players, and created huge crater between new players and anyone who already farmed gear in CoF. Why would you keep repeating mestakes of other MMOs and create such a disatventage between players?

@Xaia.2304 +1 that´s right

why not just set up a cooldown timer like 1h 2h 3h like in every MMO i ve ever played so far….

“So now we have:
1. No gold from dungeons
2. No exp from dungeons
3. No fun from dungeons
4. No drop from dungeons
5. Ugly skins from tokens
6. more deaths because of dungeon difficulty after patch

nothing to do here."

They are killing it for me.

In my opinion, I vote personally for a removal of the 30 minute limit per run..since that in turn is a hinderance to better yourself to the point of doing efficient runs…unless it’s in the manner that some key paths aren’t supposed to be done in 30 minutes as minimum and are currently done due to mechanics/or the way they are.. I think more elaborating is needed but for that point, this is my two cents.

The first change is an acceptable fix, given the notoriety of constant farming runs…in turn would make people to branch out and do other runs. It should be that if people alternate for example. They do one path of the dungeon, then they do another path, and then after that they do the same path, there shouldn’t be any diminishing returns at all. If this is the case, then it is alright. I do recommend bumping up at least the first time of the day token count a bit higher though to make different path running more lucrative but since you are going to do a pass on dungeon rewards, i’m on hold on that.

I do suggest, perhaps adding karma aswell to the rewards aswell, tied with the one time reward for story, and after each run in explorable mode. Perhaps around 400-700ish per path run aswell. It does give more incentive to do dungeons which currently they do lack just a bit more.

It seems like you guys are actively trying to prevent us from having fun in this game. Why don’t you focus on fixing the insane amount of bugs in this game before you mess something up that is actually rewarding and functional? Also, if it isn’t supposed to be a grind then make the dungeon reward more tokens! If you want to make them difficult so we can’t speedrun them thats fine, but then make them drop enough tokens that we only have to run it 2-3 times for a piece of gear!

i paid for this game to enjoy it, but now i ended up more stressed…

i think you guys killed the casual players in the game..

Sarius, those runs were fun beacouse they were rewarding, and u could prepare for other dungeons only thanks to CoF in matter of not grinding 150 hours for gear/cash.

It’s bout beeing fun, isn’t it ? If so many players feels it used to be fun, why just don’t put it how it was, especially as you mentioned so many ppl have those sets already, why rest have to put more effort into em?

@jeno
I totally agree, that kills casual playing and end up with harcore grinding to actually have ‘something’. If u can’t be hardcore, there’s no point of playing since u will never be rewarded.

Dear JonPeters.

I would like to know if you even TESTING your changes.

Now CoF (magg road) is impossible to make. Especcialy for casual playares
Causal Players can forget about makin random group

Road 1 in CoF – Impossible to make , mobs are healin to fast at last boss
Road 2 in CoF – Impossible to make , mobs are 2 shottin you in “detonate the gate” (event right after last boss)

we Tried Evry single possible way in 80 lvl party , full exotic setup full defense set up.

Now ok you gonna tell me it should be hard. But tell me dear designer if its worth it. i need make XXXXXXXXXX runs to make ful set . and Now i cant finish SINGLE RUN .

So its not like it was game breakin . Im not angry about pixels ( I hitted end content 1 wee ago) I have full exotics and i dont care aboutkittenpixels . But you takin FUN + REWARD from that game.

26 SILVER for road where you cant finish it now… is it worht it ?
so start lowering now cost of badges thx.

Please focus on fixing the dungeons first.
Then balance, then rewards.

@Azriel

who said they wanted gw2 to be fun ? lol

jeno.6435:

i paid for this game to enjoy it, but now i ended up more stressed…

i think you guys killed the casual players in the game..

This is exactly how I feel. Personally I don’t actually mind the dungeons too much myself, they are HARD but fun, if very frustrating.

It is stressing, I want a game that is not WOW that I can play with my friends. But I have no idea how I’m going to convince my SO and some of my other friends to buy this game now. They are older people, we used to play GW1 back in college, but very few of us have the desire to come home after a full day of work to this frustration. Watching me play AC story mode was enough to turn many of them off, even though I rarely die in that one, or come out with less money than I came in.

Maybe people wouldn’t do speed runs of the easier paths if the other paths weren’t unrewarding and time consuming. Some paths can take up to 2 hours to complete it even with a group that know what they are doing. And in the end what we get for all the hard work? Blues blues and more blues. And that one copper from that chest. I’m not asking for an orange item every run but the problem is that I did CoF hundreds of times upon hundreds of time, and i only got crap rewards, maybe 1 or 2 yellows. Only reason i was doing were for the money and the exp, and now i don’t have any reason to do it again. Oh and i had 130% magic find.

They might be exciting and fun for the second and first time, but after 58~60 runs just for an armor set, which may take hours to complete each run, it become a utter chore and i rather be killing normal mobs for better chance and rewards. And money! Because after dying hundreds of times, i will need to sell my kidney to fix my stuff.

And i have a doubt. Is it true that the game have an anti farming code for normal monsters as well? If you kill them too many times, you stop getting loot? I’m just feeling that anet loves punishing people that play the game too much.

JonPeters.5630:

At this time, dungeons should one of the most efficient ways to level and get gold, and it is not our intention to make them feel like a grind. (…)

Dungeons are meant to be difficult and we will continue to update them to try and reach a point where the time invested to XP/Gold/Tokens is similar for each dungeon. Some right now are just too easy to complete while others may be too hard. Moving forward we will try and post more clear change notes for those dungeons we do fix.

Thanks for your feedback, we really appreciate your desire to help us keep improving on the game.

Jon

So, you don’t want them to feel like grind, and that’s why you’re increasing the amount of times one has to play through the same dungeon to ge a reward from “too many times” to “way fluffy kitty too many times”…
Please explain your logic to me, I fail to compute.

Dungeons are meant to be difficult if a failed approach, but you seem to be following this path for the last 10 years without learning a single thing, simply multiplying HP and dmg of mobs every time you come to a conclusion that some group of players is doing them too fast for your liking.
They should be challenging enough to be fun (you know, that keyword of yours) and not too much as to ge frustrating.
Your dungeons are not challenging, and you admit that yourself by saying that ANet dungeon team thought them too easy for release: this is your clue. If mechanics becomes trivial when discovered, it’s not good design.

Once you learn how to design a dungeon that is still challenging even when the mechanics is known, while still doable and still allowing for a mistake or two, you’ll know how to make good dungeons.
I am sorry but I have not seen a single dungeon made by ANet that would match that.
The closest you ever got was Bonus Mission Pack in GW1.
And stop buffing every hp bas and every auto attack you come across, this is such a turn off.

So in order to avoid getting low rewards, you have to make sure you don’t finish a dungeon in under 30 minutes and you can only run a path a day? Which means you can only run a dungeon 3 times per day (3 paths)?
Edit: “over twice in a row” so this means you can run a path 2 times each for a total of 6 same dungeon runs?

Fasalina.6571:

So in order to avoid getting low rewards, you have to make sure you don’t finish a dungeon in under 30 minutes and you can only run a path a day? Which means you can only run a dungeon 3 times per day (3 paths)?

Where did you get that?

Xaia.2304:

So now we have:
1. No gold from dungeons
2. No exp from dungeons
3. No fun from dungeons
4. No drop from dungeons
5. Ugly skins from tokens
6. more deaths because of dungeon difficulty after patch

nothing to do here.

I pretty much agree with this.
I can’t see you gaining anything but the loss of customers when they realise your endgame only caters to the hardcore and the only casual path available is the farming of some tiny boring events in the orr zones, or going back and doing old noob zones, which results in pretty much no real reward.

The issue isn’t just with making dungeons “easier”.
It’s that your idea of challenging is horrible, hp meatshield non-boss monsters, buggy events that barely work and are really frustrating. Reward for time spent is way off.

At some point it’s good game beeing broken by this patch ain’t it ? There was some bugs ect. which needed to be fixed, but besides that it really seemed well made, also for casuals. Now instead of fixing bugged skill challanges ect, u just took the fun away soo….

Sarius.6983:

In my opinion, I vote personally for a removal of the 30 minute limit per run..since that in turn is a hinderance to better yourself to the point of doing efficient runs…unless it’s in the manner that some key paths aren’t supposed to be done in 30 minutes as minimum and are currently done due to mechanics/or the way they are.. I think more elaborating is needed but for that point, this is my two cents.

The first change is an acceptable fix, given the notoriety of constant farming runs…in turn would make people to branch out and do other runs. It should be that if people alternate for example. They do one path of the dungeon, then they do another path, and then after that they do the same path, there shouldn’t be any diminishing returns at all. If this is the case, then it is alright. I do recommend bumping up at least the first time of the day token count a bit higher though to make different path running more lucrative but since you are going to do a pass on dungeon rewards, i’m on hold on that.

I do suggest, perhaps adding karma aswell to the rewards aswell, tied with the one time reward for story, and after each run in explorable mode. Perhaps around 400-700ish per path run aswell. It does give more incentive to do dungeons which currently they do lack just a bit more.

I agree with both ideas. Although, I think a threshold would be fine. My suggestion would be 20 minutes, just based on the fact that outside CoF, I’ve not gotten a dungeon run to under 20 minutes. We’ve gotten close, but never under it. If you can go under it, an exploit is probably involved.

And I’m always for more karma.

TJL

Honestly, I’m baffled.

Simply unsure in what direction you wish to take this game, other then to the bank so you can make the biggest profit possible.

If I look on metrics and notice that only 3 dungeons are being ran significantly, it would most likely not make me call it a “exploit” (as your team did), but rather make me wonder what is wrong with my other dungeons that make these three so attractive. (CM, CoF, AC to a lesser extent)

The very last thing I would do would be to immediately fix those three before I at least had some fixes to roll out for the rest, so that it at least stays on a standard level.

Maybe eventually you’ll figure out what exactly your doing, but until then I think I’ll be chilling in Borderlands 2 & Torchlight 2… you know, not buying any of your gems.

Ashane.3520:

Honestly, I’m baffled.

Simply unsure in what direction you wish to take this game, other then to the bank so you can make the biggest profit possible.

If I look on metrics and notice that only 3 dungeons are being ran significantly, it would most likely not make me call it a “exploit” (as your team did), but rather make me wonder what is wrong with my other dungeons that make these three so attractive. (CM, CoF, AC to a lesser extent)

The very last thing I would do would be to immediately fix those three before I at least had some fixes to roll out for the rest, so that it at least stays on a standard level.

Maybe eventually you’ll figure out what exactly your doing, but until then I think I’ll be chilling in Borderlands 2 & Torchlight 2… you know, not buying any of your gems.

I have to agreee with this too.
I think I’m going to quit for a while to see how you handle this before I bother wasting any more time in the game.

Its simple the dungeon system is broken and they are basically saying " look we don’t know what we are doing so we are putting an impossible fix for now so you turn away and do something else until we find a permanent fix"

Here is the thing, certain dungeons have certain armor sets that with the looks people want. Someone did suggest a universal token rather than specific dungeon token along with some timer. That will make people run different dungeons and cycle through a big variety and yet get tokens to purchase what they want.
The other issue we have faced is the difficulty of some of them after patch is ludicrous.

Some of these patches are unintentionally benefiting a small group, mostly botters who don’t really care if things take a bit longer, hardcore players that already grinded almost everything they wanted, and a lucky few who hoarded up karma items, such as cultural items and butter, before a patch.

The latest dungeon changes make this game even more of a grind and really takes out a lot of the fun – of randomly meeting new friends and just completing some run – even having some breathing room to mess around.

JonPeters.5630:

At this time, dungeons should one of the most efficient ways to level and get gold, and it is not our intention to make them feel like a grind.

You’ve failed.

They feel like nothing else than the biggest grind and incredibly counter intuitive to the design philosophy to the rest of the game. The way dungeons have been designed, all encounters are designed to be a large speed bump to keep you from completing the dungeon completely and given immense health pools which detracts from any interesting gameplay segments in the dungeon path.

Furthermore, players have no incentive not to find the quickest path through to finish due to the large cost of dungeon armors which seem to be inflated to match the prohibitively high cost of cultural armors. Whatever happened to getting a rare piece of awesome dungeon armor every time you run the dungeon? Whatever happened to cultural armors being rewards for karma? These things were changed close to launch and I believe it was because you at Anet over-reacted to player worries about endgame.

I’ve previously made a post on these forums about how the new dungeons aren’t hard (in the challenging sense) or fun. But more tedious. I still believe this but I still believe these can be fixed by making trash mobs fit more into player expectations. It’s doing no favors to the dungeons that the trash mobs are considered harder than the bosses and are becoming more memorable and infamous than the encounters that players should be remembering, the bosses.

I believe the game is fun and dungeons could be fun with tuning but that tuning would have to be in the opposite direction than the one you’re heading. Nothing has made me want to stop playing than when I discovered this morning that I have half a dungeon set and an impossible sisyphus-like grind to get the remaining pieces of my armor set with no reprieve in sight.

this is the only thing i consider as an “end game” and you guys broke it :/

Untouch.2541:

Fasalina.6571:

So in order to avoid getting low rewards, you have to make sure you don’t finish a dungeon in under 30 minutes and you can only run a path a day? Which means you can only run a dungeon 3 times per day (3 paths)?

Where did you get that?

I’m trying to deduce stuff from the Op’s post. He said that a nerf will occur if you run a dungeon in under 30 minutes and if you take the same path (not dungeon) more than 2 times. So what I understand is that if you keep the runs over 30 minutes and only run the same path only 2 times, you’ll still get the rewards. Which basically means you can run all dungeons 6 times each in a day.
But I might be wrong though.

Fasalina.6571:

Untouch.2541:

Fasalina.6571:

So in order to avoid getting low rewards, you have to make sure you don’t finish a dungeon in under 30 minutes and you can only run a path a day? Which means you can only run a dungeon 3 times per day (3 paths)?

Where did you get that?

I’m trying to deduce stuff from the Op’s post. He said that a nerf will occur if you run a dungeon in under 30 minutes and if you take the same path (not dungeon) more than 2 times. So what I understand is that if you keep the runs over 30 minutes and only run the same path only 2 times, you’ll still get the rewards. Which basically means you can run all dungeons 6 times each in a day.
But I might be wrong though.

2 times in a row.

I wanna log in and have fun.
I don’t wanna log and think I need to grind “this” dungeon for “x” set.
Will be nice an universal token as many stated before me, then I can go and help a friend in AC, we can do explorables of other dungeons to check how they are, I can even see if I like other dungeons and not the ones that offers the set with the stats I want.
Please, reconsider what are you doing guys, I’ve been playing GW1 since factions released (6 years ago or maybe more?) and yes we had grind in GW1 but was no near to this type of grind, in any possible manner, and was always fun and nice to do.
Here now to change build, means to change gears, which as exotics are expensive, and I can’t be doing 5-6 differents sets for each time you guys wanna change something in an instance, that means around 20-30g between gems and armor, is not the same as changing some skills and try again and see how we do this time.

Thanks.

Best change yet. Thank you for this.

Grinding dungeons isn’t fun for most of us and seeing people walk away with full dungeon sets with little actual effort – or even worse, being turned down from groups because I didnt want to speed run the dungeon over and over – was a little disheartening.

As a more casual player who still has an interest in the dungeon challenges, I applaud this change. Talking to my guild in chat this morning – they universally agree.

you nerfed dungeons that fine. because i like them but the party search feature isnt on par with gw 1. and i dont like the grind in any game either. the nerf to the dungeon is fine…. but you need to spread that wealth out somewhere else not just take it away. give events or hearts a buff. right now they arent worth it. and seriously please make higherlevel/gear characters at least noticably strong if they visit a low level area to play with friends. or scale up the rewards for them for doing so. right now its only a punishment to be anywhere but where youre “supposed” to be. which limits exploration. this should include finding new areas and waypoints. even in starting areas. i want to have fun everywhere i go. but right now if i visit a low level area i cant leave it fast enough skipping by anything non essential. you want players to explore the world. thats fine. i want to as well…. but youre discouraging me from looking everywhere because when i go to an area where my level drops 20 levels…. my rewards and thus my incentive for being there to snoop around drops just as much. really think on this one.

great lets just play another diablo 3 and lose more money then we make.

Riavan.2609:

Xaia.2304:

So now we have:
1. No gold from dungeons
2. No exp from dungeons
3. No fun from dungeons
4. No drop from dungeons
5. Ugly skins from tokens
6. more deaths because of dungeon difficulty after patch

nothing to do here.

I pretty much agree with this.
I can’t see you gaining anything but the loss of customers when they realise your endgame only caters to the hardcore and the only casual path available is the farming of some tiny boring events in the orr zones, or going back and doing old noob zones, which results in pretty much no real reward.

The issue isn’t just with making dungeons “easier”.
It’s that your idea of challenging is horrible, hp meatshield non-boss monsters, buggy events that barely work and are really frustrating. Reward for time spent is way off.

My only hope at this point is that GW1 was much harder at release, and then over time most things gradually became easier. They didn’t actually tone anything down, but they wound up giving you more options, which in turn made the difficult content easier.

I don’t think they are going to lower the ridiculous HP, but maybe they’ll tweak them for a better time to reward ratio (and hopefully lower the token costs or raise the tokens dropped as well).

I also agree that the dungeons are going to drive the casuals away. I’m still having more fun in GW1 than I am here.

Great change ANet, thank you! I actually reported this for CM.

Now people will play dungeons for the challenge or move on. (and you’ll get a better idea of what dungeons are boring). And still, you get your normal reward the first time you play and each time you find a new way of playing it.

Don’t mind the vocal minority. You are doing great.

Xaia.2304:

So now we have:
1. No gold from dungeons
2. No exp from dungeons
3. No fun from dungeons
4. No drop from dungeons
5. Ugly skins from tokens
6. more deaths because of dungeon difficulty after patch

nothing to do here.

This pretty much kills the casual players. This patch is starting to cater towards the more hardcore players without giving any reprieve to the casual ones and turning into another grindquest mmo that is probably alot of us tried to avoid by getting this game.

nbates.4701:

Great change ANet, thank you! I actually reported this for CM.

Now people will play dungeons for the challenge or move on. (and you’ll get a better idea of what dungeons are boring). And still, you get your normal reward the first time you play and each time you find a new way of playing it.

Don’t mind the vocal minority. You are doing great.

No they wont since this is not challenge nor fun.

Blaeys.3102:

Best change yet. Thank you for this.

Grinding dungeons isn’t fun for most of us and seeing people walk away with full dungeon sets with little actual effort – or even worse, being turned down from groups because I didnt want to speed run the dungeon over and over – was a little disheartening.

As a more casual player who still has an interest in the dungeon challenges, I applaud this change. Talking to my guild in chat this morning – they universally agree.

your against “speed” run cuz people get dungeon gears easier? and your a casual player too

so you rather do the “superhardnexttoimpossible” run for the gears which is twice or even more harder and time consuming ? so you find this more fun then ?

is that what you mean ?