Guild Wars 2

Lots of folks are comparing the grind factor to WoW. First of all, WoW did institute the number of times you could run an instance within a certain time period – for the folks claiming nerf from the mountain tops, this is not a foreign concept.

The money nerf: You know it’s always difficult to take something away from players after they’ve had it for a time and it’s totally understandable…but to be honest, I’d like to see ANet tool everything down now while the game is still in its infant stages and then slowly make incremental updates as the game and its players evolve and progress.

WoW nerfs things all of the time – the game still exists after the dust settles from people’s anger.

Are there other ways to make money in this game? Yes. Even in WoW lots of us needed to do a lot of farming to make potions, feasts and needed to get money saved up for those repair bills before we did a raid.

I don’t see what Anet has really done other than take something away and encourage people to venture back out into the world and take part in other money making ventures.

Tik.2381:

The only people complaining are the ones running the same easy lines over and over for hours to cheat the system, end of story.

Now you have to play it the way it was meant to be played. Deal with it, no more easy mode for you.

Yeah, hit ‘em again Ike! Agreed.
Let’s all go back to WoW Cataclysm Heroics and complain how hard they are…and then…a month later…complain they’re too easy.

You guys changed the reward from 20+ silver down to 2 silver? when we die our repair bill is more than 2 silver fix it.

importune.7120:

Because then people wont waste their time running a dungeon for nothing.

Why would ANet care if you waste time in the game or not, whether you play 6 hours daily or six hours in one week that does not make them any more money. You are not paying for time in this game.

The grind for legendary weapons and dungeon sets is simply there because they won’t want everyone and their mother with that (cosmetic) gear in a month. Also, hard locking content is counter productive because maybe, just maybe there is someone who plays the content for the content’s sake. So they leave in the possibility to run the content for those who want to run it anyways.

Y u mad its vydia.6324:

@Nebilim: Are we playing the same game? What the hell do tokens have to do with anything, explorable mode was NOT nerfed at all.

Did you read the post i quoted or the thread for the matter son? If you do a dungeon for less than 30 minutes, you start having diminishing gains. And if you repeat the same path. Yeah, Explorable mode. How is that not punishing hardcore players? The 30 min cap is ridiculous, there is no purpose to it.

“Farming story mode is baby tier, and did not deserve 20+ silver / completion. Get over it.”

He’s got a point. 26s and 125k xp for 12 minutes work in CM doesn’t seem completely balanced. For the rest of the issues, especially explorable I don’t know. I noticed a lot more veteran mobs in CM this morning.

I think it needs balance. Like I say, 26s for 12 minutes play is a bit silly, but the rewards for doing a particularly taxing dungeon need to be relative. People who want the top gear/skins will have to do a lot of stuff to get them, but it need to be achievable, even it’s a long term goal.

To the rest of the forum; guys, we’ve had it easy on the gold/reward so far. You want prices to skyrocket? Fine, but I’d much rather not buy bone shards at 1s70 a go.

Tearmatt.5410:

You guys changed the reward from 20+ silver down to 2 silver? when we die our repair bill is more than 2 silver fix it.

Not to mention the teleport cost to get to the entrance and that’s about 2 silver+.

Write.3192:

Tearmatt.5410:

You guys changed the reward from 20+ silver down to 2 silver? when we die our repair bill is more than 2 silver fix it.

Not to mention the teleport cost to get to the entrance and that’s about 2 silver+.

The change they did with the reward is unrewarding lol,..what a joke

Write.3192:

Tearmatt.5410:

You guys changed the reward from 20+ silver down to 2 silver? when we die our repair bill is more than 2 silver fix it.

Not to mention the teleport cost to get to the entrance and that’s about 2 silver+.

Heart of Mists→Lions Arch→Divinity’s Reach→Dwayna Waypoint→2 minute jog in Queensdale.

By adding in your changes you made Dungeons the worst grind in MMO history. Fix it ANET or a lot of people will stop doing them or possibly just quit playing. And then you’ll be stuck with a pretty GW1..

The game already has so much to do, so many time sinks, that even playing ONE character will take forever.

My problem isnt money or experience and all that. It is marks and marks alone.

I did CoF speedruns for 2 entire days (6-10 hours) and got the weapon + helmet.

The total runs for ONE set is maybe 70-100 runs. That is already an extreme amount of time with “only” 20 minute runs.

Having to deal with getting 20-30 marks a few times a day is a gamebreaker for me. If the dungeons are already so long and hard – one should excpect atleast 50 marks minimum per run. 20 minute CoF runs made the game from horrible to MANAGABLE. So unless ArenaNet does some miracle work the next few weeks Im out. Not only from this MMO but MMOs as games in general.

Developers fail, fail and fail some more in listening to the players. Then they wonder why everyone is leaving.

It is a shame because GW2 is the only MMO Ive enjoyed since WoW (Vailla+ burning crusade) and Ive tried them all. They all say the same – “Games for gamers made by gamers”… but each time Im left with a bitter aftertaste like being lied to by politicians.

Here is my advice to ArenaNet. You want people to stay, and be rewarded for their time? Then friggin REWARD them. Minimum 50 marks for a dungeon if this is how its gonna be. There is already a billion time sinks, now you want people to spend half a year to get a set so they can START having fun?

I logged on today to invest another 10 hours doing CoF speedruns. Only to be told by ArenaNet that “Hey, now you have to atleast tripple that time”

I feel like such a Dbag for telling my friends how in this game we wont have to grind forever……….I was such a fanboi >.<

You have a few issues that seem to be fixed pretty easily…

1.) There is very little insentive to run dungeons, besides the grind to get tokens, in order to get the gear.

2.) Getting tokens takes a long time to get, people will always find the shortest way to get to the end of something when you have to do a task 50+ times in order to accomplish that goal.

3.) Dungeons feel too long for what you are rewarded.

My proposition starts with a very simple fix, every time you complete a path of a dungeon for a first time reward a sizable reward of tokens. ONLY for the first time you ever complete the path, say 50 tokes, each dungeon normally has 4 paths, so by the time that you finish all paths you are able to by one of the exotic set pieces. But also, add to this when you complete all paths in a dungeon create a very sizable reward, a full stack of tokens. So now you ran 4 paths of the dungeon and have 450 tokens, that is still only 1/3 of the set. You still need to grind out that last 2/3, but you have experienced the dungeons in their entirety and you feel like you have already accomplished a lot by having 2 pieces of the set gear already. This makes it so you are more likely to continue the grind to finish of that set.

Secondly, have every explorable mode dungeon, have a slight chance (say 10%), to drop an untradebale weapon skin (make them white so you can’t really break them down for anything and make them vendor for 2 silver or something like that) that is only atainable through finishing the dungeons. Maybe take the ones that you currently have for barter off the merchants and have it so you can only get them by drop. You need to give a reason to finish the dungeons, that shinny at the end, the lottery system is huge for that.

Lastly, and the hardest change, you need to work on your tuning of trash versus bosses. You currently have a situation where trash is taking up a lot of time and bosses, a lot of times, are incredibly easy. I know you guys can make some really good bosses because I have seen some of them, the twins in catacombs are a great example. But, currently there is just too much trash that is just too difficult. Dungeons are supposed to be building up to hard parts, where you fight you way to each more amazing and dificult boss. Right now they are not like that. You guy’s really should cut out some trash or lower the HP on some of it. A dungeon that you expect people to run over and over again should take no longer than 45 minutes.

I know this game is new, and it has a ton of potential, when you guys hit something it is incredibly fun and very different from other MMO dungeons. It is more about team work and movement than anything I have seen. But you need to have dungeons layed out a bit better. And you really need to work on monotenous boss fights.

JonPeters.5630:

Let me clarify the change a bit since not everyone understands it.

If you run the exact same chain twice in a row you will have your rewards cut. This means you can bounce back and forth between 2 different chains, even in the same dungeon without ever hitting this change. This change is made to encourage people to try different chains.

If you speed clear dungeons at a rate of more than 2/ hour, and continue to do that for some time your rewards will slowly begin to degrade. It doesn’t kick in after running a single dungeon and it doesn’t immediately zero out rewards.

Finally we reduced the value of repeating the story mode, because they are built to be easier and we want to encourage those repeating dungeons to run explore mode.

We’ll do the other Run Options when they are actually possible to finish, exmaple CoF explo mode option 1 last boss = never ending battle / option 3 starting mission = almost impossible if you have no TANK or someone as a bait when you need all of em to light a torch.

Boriken.3507:

I feel like such a Dbag for telling my friends how in this game we wont have to grind forever……….I was such a fanboi >.<

not your fault anet changed it.

Nebilim.5127:

Y u mad its vydia.6324:

@Nebilim: Are we playing the same game? What the hell do tokens have to do with anything, explorable mode was NOT nerfed at all.

Did you read the post i quoted or the thread for the matter son? If you do a dungeon for less than 30 minutes, you start having diminishing gains. And if you repeat the same path. Yeah, Explorable mode. How is that not punishing hardcore players? The 30 min cap is ridiculous, there is no purpose to it.

Do you even english? That cap happens when you finish multiple dungeons in 30 minutes time. How many times did you finish TWO explorable mode dungeons in 30 minutes? Oh right no one can do that.

The problem with this change is that it makes what was barely worth doing into essentially a giant money sink and waste of time. The problem only wasn’t that CoF #2 was too easy, but that the dungeons in general give horribly bad rewards, but still slightly better than the now nerfed-to-oblivion mob and event drops.

The solution should have been to increase the difficulty and rewards so they’re still actually worth running. Instead they just nerfed the rewards and make it a huge waste of time and something guaranteed to lose you money. On top of that, the diminishing rewards stuff is also bugged (as someone mentioned, doing a different path still gives you 6s!).

6s is less than the cost of one repair. You are guaranteed to lose money and get nothing out of the dungeons now, just like most other activities in the game (farming, events, both of which now give nerfed-to-oblivion rewards, usually barely enough to the cover the cost of traveling there).

These changes serve only to make the game into a huge chore because of the massively poor rewards for doing anything compared to the huge amount of money it costs to repair or travel.

Ok …So i ran CoF last night like 5 times before this “nerf” or patch or what ever you want to call it. Today I ran TA and guess what was waiting for me at the end 6 SILVERS and 60 COPPERS .. what gives ?

This was my first TA of the day!!!!!

At this rate people will leave the game en mass. Dare i mention the underwhelming, and broken bosses across multiple dungeons ?

The changes to the dungeons are pure idiocy. Not sure what dimwit came up with these ideas…

Instead of making them LESS like a grind, all they’ve done is make them MORE like a grind. Grind = playing the same thing over and over for very little reward.

Logic fail.

The dungeons wouldn’t be so bad if healing worked the way it should.

JonPeters.5630:

We also reduced the rewards of completing story mode, once you have already completed it, because the rewards for story mode were never intended to be a high as they were.

so you want to say players who haven’t done story modes yet will have even more fun to find other people to do it since there is even less incentive to do it twice?

that “rewards never intended to be as high” is a nice theory, but not with the current state of story modes.

I just ran AC explore mode with a group and noticed no difference in reward from yesterday’s explore mode in CM. I then immediately ran AC story mode and found the reward decrease at the end to be reasonable. I got 13 silvers and 88k exp as opposed yesterday’s 26 silvers and 177k exp (I think) at L80. It looks like the nerf mainly harms farmers but have little material impact on non-farming players; I assume I would have gotten the same reward running CM one time. I consider the nerf unharmful and want to add my support for it.

I’m really just curious about the implementation here. Is it attempts or completions? Cause counting attempts would penalize players who encounter bugs in their dungeon runs and are forced to start over. Which can’t be ANet’s intention. Especially while mobs still spawns inside geometry with reckless abandon.

“1) Run the same exact chain over twice in a row
2) Complete multiple dungeons in 30 minutes or less each.”

Guys, get good at GW2. But please don’t get too good, or we will punish you.

Police State MMO of the year…

the problems with dungeons is that most people(on my server at least) only wants to run arah and the other dungeons are very empty which makes getting a group for them very hard.i waited 30min in front of twilight arbor so i can get the armor set from it and no group at all

I don’t agree with 1) at all given that the amount of farming required to get all the loot is totally ludicrous to sit down and punish people for taking the path of least resistance to tokens when over a thousand are needed for a full set and you get a measly 30 per run maximum.

Can we make it beneficial to run different ends of the dungeon instead of punish people for farming the same one? The problem here is that two are not rewarding enough, not that one is too rewarding.

So what’s happening here is that Anet wants to make the dungeons less of a grind, so they made them harder and made it take longer to get what you want?
In what world does this make sense?
The rewards from the dungeons were ALREADY terrible, and now you make them even worse?
There is now zero incentive to run these dungeons, as the amount of time and effort to get the gear is so ridiculous that one might as well buy a set of generic exotics.
You are making it difficult to want to play this game, Anet.

Hello ArenaNet,

I just came here to this topic to leave my comment about the patch updates regarding to dungeons, with special attention to Citadel of Flames – CoF, and I just wanted to say that it’s absolutly frustrating playing this way. I mean, this is completely idiotic turning a fun and fast run into 2 hours of dispair. I tried this about a minute ago and my group couldn’t end the dungeon, what a perfect waste of my time. I also would like to say one thing, instead of nerfing fun stuff, upgrade your fricking servers cause everytime at afternoon GMT everyone lags like hell and the game is unplayable.

Really, I’m so angry with this crap I want to uninstall the game… You see, I have a job and I can’t farm like all the kids on vacation from school that already have the fricking full set, this action you took is totally unfair for those like me that actually have a life and can’t farm 24/7. What are the actions you going to take towards players that already have the full set and abused of the supposed bugs in CoF that made you nerfed it? Ouh let me answer that for you, NONE. They will still have the set and laugh to the faces of people that don’t have it.

But hey, this post will be useless since you won’t read it and won’t do anything about it.

Like everybody else, I too have the right to rage in this thread, so enjoy my post.

Goodbye.

Rinon.5402:

So what’s happening here is that Anet wants to make the dungeons less of a grind, so they made them harder and made it take longer to get what you want?

Not only that, but they even give you less of a reward, and the reward was pretty bad to begin with. This change is honestly pretty terrible.

It was already hard enough to get a group for the dungeons that people liked running, now it will be virtually impossible to get anyone to play them (and I don’t blame them, I don’t want to spend an hour or more for a couple pieces of loot worth copper and maybe 20 silver either. That’s what I call “A waste of time”).

For all the deaths.. the repairs should be free inside the dungeon at least….

JonPeters

Game Designer

Let me clarify the change a bit since not everyone understands it.

If you run the exact same chain twice in a row you will have your rewards cut. This means you can bounce back and forth between 2 different chains, even in the same dungeon without ever hitting this change. This change is made to encourage people to try different chains.

If you speed clear dungeons at a rate of more than 2/ hour, and continue to do that for some time your rewards will slowly begin to degrade. It doesn’t kick in after running a single dungeon and it doesn’t immediately zero out rewards.

Finally we reduced the value of repeating the story mode, because they are built to be easier and we want to encourage those repeating dungeons to run explore mode.

Except a load of crap got added to story mode and you’ve just eliminated any chance of experienced players helping new players.
you kittened it up big time boyo.

As it stands you’ve turned people away from doing story mode so why the hell would they want to do explorable? Story was meant to entice people into the world of dungeon runs, not put them off.

And while you’re here, lets me say that infinity spawns is not a well thought out challenge for dungeons. it is not a rewarding experience to have to fight through things like that. Some of your dungeon design is clearly lacking and opting for the lazy “oh lets just chuck mobs at them” just highlights this.

CoF is just freaking borcken now its bugging ALL the time you guys try to fix the economy before fixing the game seriously .

So much weeping and gnashing of teeth. The game is what…three weeks old? If you think this is the first and only nerf you’re in for a shock.

You guys ruined the game experience for me. Thanks a lot. Going back to xbox. I cant believe i ever thought Anet was capable of not doing the nerfs into the ground as they have in the entire first game they made.

How many pages do we need to achieve on this rage thread to get the guys up top to fix this? Here’s my contribution

RAAAAAAAGGGEEEEE

Xaia.2304:

So now we have:
1. No gold from dungeons
2. No exp from dungeons
3. No fun from dungeons
4. No drop from dungeons
5. Ugly skins from tokens
6. more deaths because of dungeon difficulty after patch

nothing to do here.

True story!
Now return our old dungeons and make AC easyer ITS WAY TO HARD FOR ITS LVL!

This game had such potential and now I don’t even want to play it anymore. Such a buzzkill.

dli.2491:

How many pages do we need to achieve on this rage thread to get the guys up top to fix this?

Seriously. Just roll this back, this is the stupidest patch I have ever seen.

Not logging in again untill the next patch.

stupid quote of the day is
We didnt want to dungeons to feel like too much of a grind.

So the solution is to make it even more of a grind? was “too much of a grind” not enough?

Karnsies.1570:

Not logging in again untill the next patch.

hope they fix this

Y u mad its vydia.6324:

Nebilim.5127:

Y u mad its vydia.6324:

@Nebilim: Are we playing the same game? What the hell do tokens have to do with anything, explorable mode was NOT nerfed at all.

Did you read the post i quoted or the thread for the matter son? If you do a dungeon for less than 30 minutes, you start having diminishing gains. And if you repeat the same path. Yeah, Explorable mode. How is that not punishing hardcore players? The 30 min cap is ridiculous, there is no purpose to it.

Do you even english? That cap happens when you finish multiple dungeons in 30 minutes time. How many times did you finish TWO explorable mode dungeons in 30 minutes? Oh right no one can do that.

You must be:
1.) Really low leveled
2.) Never actually played gw2 before
3.) A really bad player
4.) Trolling.
Oh I hope you are trolling vydia

So do you get less reward the FIRST time you complete a chain for the day or just on multiple runs?

Maybe instead of buffing this one, have a look at the other dungeon and make THOSE more enviable so that people WANT to do them.

Don’t reduce rewards, are you kidding me?

Doesn’t the fact that tons of people were grinding Cof#2 tell you something about what players WANT?

Just saying, I’ll do them all once and never go back as it’s clearly no way to make money and get rewards in there. Plus some of them are just plainly not fun.

I suspect that, unfortunately, ArenaNet will dismiss most of the negative feedback as a knee jerk to losing the “easy” rewards and not as a demonstration of player dissatisfaction with the way they’ve designed the grind for end-game and how it’s sucking the fun out of player’s experiences. I’m beginning to feel like nothing I do in the game is being rewarded by anything meaningful at all. Every time I log in I don’t feel like I’ve made any progress at all. Most of the content in the game is not progressing me towards the gear I want. So few viable parts of the game to play to progress towards goals.

Sadly I don’t think these voices are being heard. Nowhere in his post did he recognise a problem with the number of tokens required for dungeon gear. In-fact, from the sounds of it, they plan to make sure all dungeon gear is reaches a grindy and hard to get benchmark which to me sounds more like they plan on eliminating any future “exploits” for dungeon paths which are “too fast”. As usual with GW2, get in fast and get it early. Buy your norn racial weapons for cheap when you can, sell chilli poppers when it’s worthwhile, buy your faction armour when it’s affordable and run the dungeons before they are nerfed. ArenaNet doesn’t want you to enjoy the game and receive rewards for reasonable time spent, they want you on that grind treadmill like every other MMO developer out there. Your eyes should be bleeding at the sight of the dungeon by the time you get the armour from it, if they aren’t you haven’t repeated it enough times.

Shiren.9532:

I suspect that, unfortunately, ArenaNet will dismiss most of the negative feedback as a knee jerk to losing the “easy” rewards and not as a demonstration of player dissatisfaction with the way they’ve designed the grind for end-game and how it’s sucking the fun out of player’s experiences. I’m beginning to feel like nothing I do in the game is being rewarded by anything meaningful at all. Every time I log in I don’t feel like I’ve made any progress at all. Most of the content in the game is not progressing me towards the gear I want. So few viable parts of the game to play to progress towards goals.

Sadly I don’t think these voices are being heard. Nowhere in his post did he recognise a problem with the number of tokens required for dungeon gear. In-fact, from the sounds of it, they plan to make sure all dungeon gear is reaches a grindy and hard to get benchmark which to me sounds more like they plan on eliminating any future “exploits” for dungeon paths which are “too fast”. As usual with GW2, get in fast and get it early. Buy your norn racial weapons for cheap when you can, sell chilli poppers when it’s worthwhile, buy your faction armour when it’s affordable and run the dungeons before they are nerfed. ArenaNet doesn’t want you to enjoy the game and receive rewards for reasonable time spent, they want you on that grind treadmill like every other MMO developer out there. Your eyes should be bleeding at the sight of the dungeon by the time you get the armour from it, if they aren’t you haven’t repeated it enough times.

I can’t believe I wasted my money on this game.

Vithaar.8637:

Maybe instead of buffing this one, have a look at the other dungeon and make THOSE more enviable so that people WANT to do them.

Don’t reduce rewards, are you kidding me?

Doesn’t the fact that tons of people were grinding Cof#2 tell you something about what players WANT?

Just saying, I’ll do them all once and never go back as it’s clearly no way to make money and get rewards in there. Plus some of them are just plainly not fun.

Do you know what 90% of the players want?They want an easy way to get power in the game.They dont care about challenge nor do they keep playing for fun.They get their fun by getting power and wealth..Of course this patch was going to drive almost anyone mad..They had to do this or make every dungeon as easy as cof was.
Im sorry but its the truth

You have in effect just killed the dungeons. There is now almost zero incentive to do them.

I find it kind of humorous that you keep stating that “you don’t want there to be a grind.” In reality, the dungeons in GW2 are some of the most grindy dungeons in any game to date.

“We also reduced the rewards of completing story mode, once you have already completed it, because the rewards for story mode were never intended to be a high as they were.”
“At this time, dungeons should one of the most efficient ways to level and get gold, and it is not our intention to make them feel like a grind.”

sounds a lot like….

“I didn’t rub my feet on Dave Chappele’s couch.”
“Of course I rubbed my feet on Dave Chappelle’s couch.”

Shiren

I suspect that, unfortunately, ArenaNet will dismiss most of the negative feedback as a knee jerk to losing the “easy” rewards

I hope they do, cause that’s exactly what this thread is full of.