Guild Wars 2

Generally speaking I think GW2’s designers have done a really good job of creating a pro-social play environment. Design really encourages players helping each other out.

Except for dungeons. I wouldn’t say my experience has been universally bad in dungeons. It’s generally been ok. But in terms of both frequency and severity, GW2 easily tops all other MMOs for dungeon nastiness.

There is a definite upside to being able to farm dungeons quickly for gold, fragments, tokens etc. But the downside is that there are a lot of very uptight and impatient players who have mega rage meltdowns at the slightest hiccup.

I was speaking to someone earlier in the week who was asking about the best ways to get gold in map chat and I naturally suggested dungeons. But they’d tried that and seen one of those meltdowns and were so not keen to see any more.

I think this aspect of the game’s design might need more thought.

EDIT – Idea for fixing :

Make dungeons like current dailies. Rather than each and every dungeon path being its own daily, the game could randomly pick a small handful – 3 or 4 – dungeon paths and give a substantially bigger daily reward (gold, fragments, tokens) for completing them And when I say completing I mean fully clearing it. Also disable the ability to skip cutscenes on those daily dungeons.

I’m a not so great player.

I just did a series of CoE PUGs. Did 2 teaching runs of P1 and P2, and one of P3.

Did a PUG run for all 3 paths afterward. No one kicked anyone.

First thing I did when I joined the PUGs was say: “Hey, I’m not that experienced, is that ok?” The LFG’s I joined had just literally said the paths. Didn’t say if they were wanting anything special.

I figure the key thing is to be up front that you’re inexperienced or not the best at something. That way, if they have a problem with it, you at least get kicked or can voluntarily leave before you put any real effort into it.

And there are jerks everywhere in the game. It’s just harder to avoid feeling their wrath in an instanced situation if something doesn’t right.

I agree definitely, no other mmo that i have played has been as mean and brutal towards other players especially to new players who stumble into an exp dungeon for the first time. Not even WoW is that bad during heroic dungeons, people are extremely helpful. The fact that a majority of “elite” gw2 players kick other players out of dungeons just because their AP arent in the thousands is ridiculous which is an absolutley terrible way to judge skill. Im a newer player and my brother is the one who brought me into gw2 and hes been playing since 2013 but his AP’s are only in the 900’s because he plays casually and he still gets kicked just because of that.

I’ve never had this happen unless it was a party that had a title with something like zerk & experienced only etc.

If you make a title that lets people know it’s a casual run (something like anyone welcome) and you won’t get these types, they’ll avoid you.

the only way to counter that is not to hang out with the wrong crowd. Join a casual guild. If you’re on EU I would (guild recruitment incoming!) offer you ours

And what Aberrant said.

@Seera

I’ve done the same when doing a dungeon for the first time too. My first runs were ok. It’s not rocket science. The nastiness has generally not been directed at myself.

I’ve only been on the receiving end of wrath once that I can recall. I was playing a guardian in a comically bad group and somehow ended copping the blame for everyone else’s screw ups. It was hilarious. One player in particular kept running ahead of me so I couldn’t wave down the poison blooms and everyone else behind him had to choke on the gas. Then at one point that player says “GUARDIAN EQUIP STAFF, ATTACK 1”. I just about wet myself laughing.

@Aberrant Yes you’re right and I typically avoid those groups if I can. But at quiet times of the day it’s that or sit around twiddling my thumbs waiting forever.

@Mirta Definitely. Now that… that other game has dropped its sub I’m sort of on the fence about what to play. But if I stick with GW2 then I think I’ll have to do that.

Mirta.5029:

the only way to counter that is not to hang out with the wrong crowd. Join a casual guild. If you’re on EU I would (guild recruitment incoming!) offer you ours

And what Aberrant said.

Finding a good one is the hard part. In Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn, their latest dungeons focused more on anti-speedrun development than anything. The story dungeon alone has 6 anti-speedrun gates (Literal walls, not counting the bosses) and the last boss has a mechanic that disallows people to speedrun / facestomp him (or else you wipe if you activate the run-saving item too early.) I’m glad developers are stepping up to the plate doing these things.

I’ve been playing since GW2 started, and have deleted characters three times, and as such, my AP is only 1200 or so. I also never did LS1, so I have no acheivements from there, and likely won’t do LS2.

I’ve already been in “Family” Guilds too, and sometimes, that’s not for me. Please see this blog post I made about the types of guilds and whatnot:

http://iancarlson666.tumblr.com/post/74523377989/a-review-of-mmorpg-communities-and-guild-types

I run speed runs all the time, and I think that sometimes people get angry becuase its easy to be angry on the internet and peoples time is precious to them. Everyone newbie or not should read LFGs. If you want to avoid the nastiness try not to join ones asking for specific builds. They are expecting top play out of everyone that joins.

While I don’t agree necessarily that anyone is a bad player for playing how they play. I think the “dark side” would be a whole lot brighter if we all just learned to accept the different types of groups.

Also, there are plenty of people who look fr those zerker groups expecting to be carried, and it can be quite harsh on both sides when that meta isn’t met.

Iyeru.5240:

I’ve already been in “Family” Guilds too, and sometimes, that’s not for me. Please see this blog post I made about the types of guilds and whatnot:

http://iancarlson666.tumblr.com/post/74523377989/a-review-of-mmorpg-communities-and-guild-types

… What’s the point in even dropping that? We’re just trying to have some nice fun, no need to be the overanalyst. Don’t know if I would even want an analyst like that in my guild.

if you join a zerker only group and youre a warrior in full exotic zerker gear and have an ascended gs, with ascended rings and amulet but a low AP score and get kicked because of it, before anyone including the pug leader has even bothered to look at your gear or doesnt even ask you to ping it, thats a design flaw and its unfair. They should remove pug leader having the ability to kick, and replace it with a group based vote.

GiraffeRampage.6420:

I agree definitely, no other mmo that i have played has been as mean and brutal towards other players especially to new players who stumble into an exp dungeon for the first time. Not even WoW is that bad during heroic dungeons, people are extremely helpful. The fact that a majority of “elite” gw2 players kick other players out of dungeons just because their AP arent in the thousands is ridiculous which is an absolutley terrible way to judge skill. Im a newer player and my brother is the one who brought me into gw2 and hes been playing since 2013 but his AP’s are only in the 900’s because he plays casually and he still gets kicked just because of that.

I’d totally forgotten about the AP snobbery. It’s definitely distasteful but I suppose that’s what you get in a game where the main form of end-game numeric advancement is a completely meaningless one like that.

To some people, having one bigger than yours is the most important thing in the world :P

Iyeru.5240:

In Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn, their latest dungeons focused more on anti-speedrun development than anything. The story dungeon alone has 6 anti-speedrun gates (Literal walls, not counting the bosses) and the last boss has a mechanic that disallows people to speedrun / facestomp him (or else you wipe if you activate the run-saving item too early.) I’m glad developers are stepping up to the plate doing these things.

That’s interesting. I didn’t play that one beyond a few beta weekends and hadn’t been keeping up with it. It is good they’re trying to address that.

Iyeru.5240:

Speed run groups are not evil. They enjoy playing their way. The non-trolls label their groups as such to avoid having people who do not fit their play style from joining.

Personally, I’m GLAD that ANet lets both groups coexist. And I’d be kicked from any speed run group because of lack of skills and I’m in no huge rush to correct that.

The ones who want to see how fast they can do it can do that and the ones that want to stop and smell the proverbial roses can do that as well.

The problem comes when the two groups mix and someone decides to be rude. And rude people exist in every part of this game.

The WvW who yells at the map completer to get out of WvW.
The PvP player who yells at the new player for causing his team to lose.
The PvE player at Teq or Wurm who yells at the new players making mistakes.

If you join a group that you don’t fit the requirements of don’t be surprised if you’re kicked before the dungeon even starts. And people have the right to ensure the people who join meet their LFG requirements.

Let’s not mistake arrogance with skill.

Toxic players tend to be bad at the game.

The really good players could just solo the dungeon anyways so things like a pugs AP/gear/skill/experience is completely irrelevant.

Mirta.5029:

Iyeru.5240:

I’ve already been in “Family” Guilds too, and sometimes, that’s not for me. Please see this blog post I made about the types of guilds and whatnot:

http://iancarlson666.tumblr.com/post/74523377989/a-review-of-mmorpg-communities-and-guild-types

… What’s the point in even dropping that? We’re just trying to have some nice fun, no need to be the overanalyst. Don’t know if I would even want an analyst like that in my guild.

actually, counter rant:
http://draksaite.blogspot.co.uk/2015/02/do-not-categorize-guild-rant.html

And back on topic: there’s nothing wrong with speedruns. It’s just not a community I would advise new players to mix with. Getting a guild, or writing up “accepting everyone”, “newbie run”, “casual run” on your LFGs helps. And don’t be afraid to host. Nobody will bite you for it

Whatever other factors might or might not be involved, players around since launch have been doing the same paths for nearly 2.5 years. Another factor is that the difficulty curve in a GW2 dungeon is based primarily on knowledge and timing. If you know what’s coming and have the timing, the fights will not seem hard. If you don’t know what’s coming, and/or don’t have the timing down, the fights can be very hard.

People who are already bored with the dungeons don’t want to return to the experience of having to struggle to complete a path because the other players don’t know the path. The seasoned dungeon runners have “paid their dues,” in a sense, and don’t always want to have to endure the experience of others paying theirs.

The unfortunate part of that is that they’re not bringing new blood in to replace the players who drop the game. However, with the lack of attention to the dungeon game, perhaps they think that the writing is on the wall. It may be that, for some, investing in the long term health of the dungeon game by bringing in new blood is not worth the effort.

Seera.5916:

If you join a group that you don’t fit the requirements of don’t be surprised if you’re kicked before the dungeon even starts. And people have the right to ensure the people who join meet their LFG requirements.

I assume that’s in response to Giraffe’s comments re AP? If so I’m pretty the point they were making was how meaningless the AP statistic is. I think they’re right – it’s not much of a measure of player competence – but I agree with you and go a little further. Not only do I respect their right to set stupid standards but I thank them for flagging themselves as people whose company I would probably not enjoy.

Marthkus.4615:

Let’s not mistake arrogance with skill.

Toxic players tend to be bad at the game.

The really good players could just solo the dungeon anyways so things like a pugs AP/gear/skill/experience is completely irrelevant.

Agree on the first, second I don’t know, third… maybe. I’ve solo’ed sections of some speed runs and have soloe’d the last boss in one of the twilight arbor twice. But I think it’d be difficult for a single player to solo a whole dungeon.

Mirta.5029:

And don’t be afraid to host. Nobody will bite you for it

There’s also no guarantee anyone will join. Just to repeat what I said earlier, my playtime is often during quiet times of the day and zerker speed runs seem to be far more popular.

Caeledh.5437:

There’s also no guarantee anyone will join. Just to repeat what I said earlier, my playtime is often during quiet times of the day and zerker speed runs seem to be far more popular.

don’t say it until you’ve tried it. Regarding dungeons like CoF normal groups seem to fill up faster than zerker groups, because of the amount of zerker groups versus the amount of normal groups. AC and TA seem like popular choices in general. Catching SE and Arah might be harder though for example, but those receive zerker LFGs less as well. Another advice would be to take 1 friend with you if you’re able to. LFGs with 2 people tend to fill up faster than LFGs with 1.

The only place that I found brutal as far as LFGs are considered is fractals levels 40 to 50 on less desirable classes, such as necro. Now for those be prepared to wait for an hour.

Caeledh.5437:

I assume that’s in response to Giraffe’s comments re AP? If so I’m pretty the point they were making was how meaningless the AP statistic is. I think they’re right – it’s not much of a measure of player competence – but I agree with you and go a little further. Not only do I respect their right to set stupid standards but I thank them for flagging themselves as people whose company I would probably not enjoy.

Just a more general comment. But yea, AP is mostly pointless. It gives SOME indication but it’s no where near 100% accurate. Not with how many AP options are out there. If AP was actually hard to come by, then yea, it would be an indication.

Frankly, I’m glad when they put the AP requirements up. I know that group isn’t the one for me, even if I do fit the requirements.

Mirta.5029:

Caeledh.5437:

There’s also no guarantee anyone will join. Just to repeat what I said earlier, my playtime is often during quiet times of the day and zerker speed runs seem to be far more popular.

don’t say it until you’ve tried it. Regarding dungeons like CoF normal groups seem to fill up faster than zerker groups, because of the amount of zerker groups versus the amount of normal groups. AC and TA seem like popular choices in general. Catching SE and Arah might be harder though for example, but those receive zerker LFGs less as well. Another advice would be to take 1 friend with you if you’re able to. LFGs with 2 people tend to fill up faster than LFGs with 1.

The only place that I found brutal as far as LFGs are considered is fractals levels 40 to 50 on less desirable classes, such as necro. Now for those be prepared to wait for an hour.

Caeledh never said they didn’t try.

Different time periods may have a higher percentage of players in one group vs the other. The time Caeledh can play in may just have a higher percentage of zerker speed run group players than the time period you do.

Caeledh may not be able to get a group with enough people to do a dungeon. Because the casual base is too spread out among the available dungeons and paths. Or just not doing dungeons that night for whatever reason.

I’m very nice to new players and tell them what to do and how things work, but they end up IGNORING everything anyone tells them to do, pull for no reason, refuse to stack, and can’t follow thus end up aggroing everything.

If new players could just follow the group around, listen, and tell them they’re new and don’t know what a boss does, it’d be fine. The problem is following 4 other people and listening is too difficult, so they end up being a liability and get kicked.

I don’t get what’s so hard about following/listening, I always did when I was doing a path I never knew how to do and besides dying to mechanics I didn’t know I didn’t grief the run or slow it down.

I have to constantly kick people who don’t follow as we stack and aggro mobs then stand there fighting them and get downed as we all spam “run back” “come” “stack” “run back”

Also, anyone below 3k AP is nearly always new to dungeons and doesn’t know how to play. Sub 1k AP 80’s make no sense and ALWAYS have no idea what they’re doing at all.

I know it’s rough, but that’s how the internet works. You can design mechanics to be more friendly, but you can’t make your players automatically become good people.

To an extent, toxic people have a point, they just have no tact. It’s that very point that keeps dungeons going though. Back on release, several groups considered dungeons to be the worst content they ever played after staggering 5 hours through AC Story. AC Explorable was inconceivable until people leveled up, geared up and learned how to dodge.

A lot of us enjoy the new skilled dungeon runs, and we don’t want to go through the trauma all over again. And here’s where the topic takes a U-turn:

I kick people for screaming at new players for that very reason. I play dungeons to enjoy myself, not set a record, but I prefer the runs be painless. I hate drama as much as I hate delays.

Many other MMOs have dungeons that you only do once or twice before you level past them and they become invalid. GW2 gives us a reason to play that content daily. We take pride in the progress we’ve made in being able to complete them in an efficient manner. We didn’t sign up for the drama, nor did we sign up to be teachers (unless we explicitly didn’t put “exp” in our LFG messages, which I omit frequently because I’m a nice guy).

That’s why toxic players and new players can sit on the opposite edge of the spectrum, both within the ring of valid targets for a votekick. It’s just like Shiyo said, new players ABSOLUTELY must fend for themselves on party chat. If they don’t want to make the effort to learn and cooperate then class dismissed.

Usually the one solution I can think of to avoid that kind of toxicity when it comes to dungeons is to just start an LFG of your own setting the expectations and such. The one problem there is that it could take you a looooong time just to get a full party if your guildmates don’t want to join in.

GiraffeRampage.6420:

I agree definitely, no other mmo that i have played has been as mean and brutal towards other players especially to new players who stumble into an exp dungeon for the first time. Not even WoW is that bad during heroic dungeons, people are extremely helpful. The fact that a majority of “elite” gw2 players kick other players out of dungeons just because their AP arent in the thousands is ridiculous which is an absolutley terrible way to judge skill. Im a newer player and my brother is the one who brought me into gw2 and hes been playing since 2013 but his AP’s are only in the 900’s because he plays casually and he still gets kicked just because of that.

The whole AP issue has to be a fallacy. My AP is over 12k. Does not make me skilled at running dungeons. More to the point, I know I am not skilled when it comes to dungeons.

Dungeons are not fun at this stage of the game. They are a source of income, and like any other method of acquiring income you want to be the most efficient you can be.
Thats why people have shorter tempers and the itch to kick.
Far too many people just see a path they want advertised and join without reading any of the LFG message. They deserve to be kicked.
Those who say well I have zerk gear and trinkets and I was still kicked: Were you attacking from ranged? were you using sub par traits/utilities. Or were you simply one of those “know it alls” chiming in every 30 seconds. Another situation where you deserve to be kicked.
Personally I avoid lfg posted that include the term “speed run”. In my mind that is for the guys in [Yet] (your fractal speed runs are inspiring), or [DnT] (even their casual runs are insanely fast).
While I disagree with people asking for AP in their LFG posts, I can understand they are just trying to get people with at least some experience.

I truly do not understand why it is so hard for people to hop on google or youtube and find out what is required for them to be an effective part of a quick or efficient dungeon run.
To be honest though I think 80% of the people complaining about zerk only or “speed runners” got mad that they were called out or kicked for being a carry.

There are countless guides on what will help you become effective in your chosen profession in any dungeon path or fractal, take the time to research it.

If you hate looking stuff up or can’t be bothered, try looking up and joining We Teach How We Want [Noob] they have a great mentoring system so you learn by doing.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Dungeon-Mentors-Noob/first

The darkside you referred to in the title is probably created by all the tryhards who look up the builds for the “meta” but never bother finding out how to use them properly or effectively and take dirtnaps regardless of how experienced the rest of the group actually is. To me berserker gear is sort of like spandex… just cause you can wear zerk doesn’t mean you should :P

The dark side is my master.

Caeledh.5437:

Generally speaking I think GW2’s designers have done a really good job of creating a pro-social play environment. Design really encourages players helping each other out.

Except for dungeons. I wouldn’t say my experience has been universally bad in dungeons. It’s generally been ok. But in terms of both frequency and severity, GW2 easily tops all other MMOs for dungeon nastiness.

There is a definite upside to being able to farm dungeons quickly for gold, fragments, tokens etc. But the downside is that there are a lot of very uptight and impatient players who have mega rage meltdowns at the slightest hiccup.

I was speaking to someone earlier in the week who was asking about the best ways to get gold in map chat and I naturally suggested dungeons. But they’d tried that and seen one of those meltdowns and were so not keen to see any more.

I think this aspect of the game’s design might need more thought.

Just read the party description and if they aren’t asking for pugs then don’t join. I think its pretty clear. And if they aren’t specific you can always ask and notify people at the beginning of the run if its okay that you aren’t experienced. And if you really want to find a pug party then post your own LFG. I don’t see why there is an issue with dungeon runs. Not everyone likes doing things inefficiently and thats fine imo. I haven’t had any issues with dungeon runs.

I generally try to do dungeons daily and see these kinds of threads constantly. Yet I have barely seen experience players flip but what I have seen more and more are new players go bananas because you try to teach them but apparently even any suggestion seems like you dishonor them some how o_o

Please don’t say the pugs that advertise as “speedrun” is actually a speedrun group. Most of those groups are just wannabes and does things really slow. Also, if you do not like speedrunners, make your own group its as simple as that.

I have pugged dungeon for a while and haven’t experienced this toxicity that some of the forumers seems to proclaim. Maybe its something that you guys are doing repeatedly that is netting you with the result.

I wouldn’t worry much about that. Dungeons are mostly run for profit, not fun, it’s a typical farming activity. Moreover, with the coming expansion, we most likely won’t be blessed with any new instanced content (in favour of open world activities) so the old dungeons will soon be forgotten.

GiraffeRampage.6420:

if you join a zerker only group and youre a warrior in full exotic zerker gear and have an ascended gs, with ascended rings and amulet but a low AP score and get kicked because of it,

“If you join…” is the problem.

I have 480 AP. I create my own lfgs, usually along the lines of the elitist “exp zerks only”. Like that I pug Arah daily, both on NA and EU. I have never been kicked in past 2 months of pugventuring.

So it seems the solution is to make your own lfg. Quite easy, right?

Caeledh.5437:

Generally speaking I think GW2’s designers have done a really good job of creating a pro-social play environment. Design really encourages players helping each other out.

Except for dungeons. I wouldn’t say my experience has been universally bad in dungeons. It’s generally been ok. But in terms of both frequency and severity, GW2 easily tops all other MMOs for dungeon nastiness.

There is a definite upside to being able to farm dungeons quickly for gold, fragments, tokens etc. But the downside is that there are a lot of very uptight and impatient players who have mega rage meltdowns at the slightest hiccup.

I was speaking to someone earlier in the week who was asking about the best ways to get gold in map chat and I naturally suggested dungeons. But they’d tried that and seen one of those meltdowns and were so not keen to see any more.

I think this aspect of the game’s design might need more thought.

Well what do you expect when players can’t read? If the LFG asks for experienced players and someone that doesn’t know the basics joins trouble will arise. I haven’t been kicked, ever, from a pug group, on the contrary I’m usually doing the teaching of pugs when I feel like it.

There are numerous ideas on how to solve this problem, joining a guild is the most important one. Reading the LFG message carefully is the best option when pugging.

The main problem for the LFG tool is that for new players it’s useless. A new player won’t want to start a new LFG message because they aren’t confident in their leading abilities yet, a new player won’t join an experienced group either, or if they do “dark things” will happen. Add to that, most LFG listings ask for experienced players and you can clearly see how the LFG tool is completely worthless for new players and it’s only there for experienced groups to fill their gaps.

Sure, you can say that there are listings that say “everyone welcome” but how many are they compared to the speedclear ones? How is a new player going to learn to speedclear if the speedclear groups won’t allow them in?

There is no dark side
When you’ve been playing >6000 hrs+ – all content of any form will always have individuals or things that make it seem bad.

Any instanced small group content will always have a higher perceived perception of being bad as people get kicked and there is a more intense focus of working together.
Think dungeons are bad try join PvP (ranked solo que).

The other thing to remember the group filling time is probably not a good indication as often many zerk groups (speed) will go with 2 or 3 people and see if the rest of the group fills up before the end

maddoctor.2738:

How is a new player going to learn to speedclear if the speedclear groups won’t allow them in?

Definitely not from “speedclear lf 2 guards 10k ap”. Most of this “speedclear” pugs don’t use “speedclear” tactics. Or common sense.

The “dark side” is that players keep joining groups they should not join.

I keep doing LFG-Posts like this:

SE 1+2+3 | expert players only | full berserker meta | write “gandalf” on join | be able to follow tactics

And still people who got no idea join the party. For example a Greatsword / Rifle Warrior. A Warrior that uses Rifle in Dungeons is not an expert at all. Don’t try to argue that he is.
I kick them and get a flame back like “What the kitten? Why you kicked me? Rifle on warrior is fine!”
The worst part is that players like that really think they are good at this game.

EDIT: by the way – the “gandalf” thing is to make sure they actualy read the LFG.

Seera.5916:

I figure the key thing is to be up front that you’re inexperienced or not the best at something. That way, if they have a problem with it, you at least get kicked or can voluntarily leave before you put any real effort into it.

This right here would make for a much better community and would improve player interactions a lot. In my experience, however, this happens about 1% of the time, or less.

Caeledh.5437:

Generally speaking I think GW2’s designers have done a really good job of creating a pro-social play environment. Design really encourages players helping each other out.

Except for dungeons. I wouldn’t say my experience has been universally bad in dungeons. It’s generally been ok. But in terms of both frequency and severity, GW2 easily tops all other MMOs for dungeon nastiness.

There is a definite upside to being able to farm dungeons quickly for gold, fragments, tokens etc. But the downside is that there are a lot of very uptight and impatient players who have mega rage meltdowns at the slightest hiccup.

I was speaking to someone earlier in the week who was asking about the best ways to get gold in map chat and I naturally suggested dungeons. But they’d tried that and seen one of those meltdowns and were so not keen to see any more.

I think this aspect of the game’s design might need more thought.

yeah all you have to do is take a look at the dungeon forums to realize the hardcore dungeon community is a pretty nasty group. And yeah thats in every game, but moreso here. That said, many of them dont pug(without a fairly big elitist warning in the lfg) anyhow, so the ragers you are finding are generally not the elite, but the want to be elites.

GiraffeRampage.6420:

They should remove pug leader having the ability to kick, and replace it with a group based vote.

How did this comment go by seven hours without anyone correcting it? It is a group-based vote: one person calls a kick vote on you and a second confirms to finalize it. ANet has been trying to raise the threshold (to require two confirmations), but there are reports it isn’t working as expected.

I really don’t enjoy dungeons but when I need to run them this pervasive toxicity the forums always talks about is not present. There are really crappy attitudes yes, but not often especially when you ignore speedrun group think.

The toxicity in PUG dungeons has a lot to do with what groups you join. A “p1” will generally be a lot less annoying than a “p1 zerk, exp, ping gear”

As someone who’s played a lot fo MMOs over 16 years, GW2 really isn’t any worse than other ones, it simply has this LFG system which has people lumped together a lot more often. In other games the speed runners will generally keep to themselves, here they post an LFG and get people who aren’t really set up and ready for htat, or think they are but really aren’t, and that’s where the toxicity starts.

I do take offense to the idea that the speed runners are at fault though, especially that the people active on the forums are bad. You have guilds like NOOB and ARES that actively try to invite people who are interested in learning dungeons and teach them, yet here we sit being bad mouthed for being too “elitist”. Show an interest in getting better and the people who are int he know will love you. I’m FAR from perfect, but I’ve felt nothing but love from the dungeon community, and I really feel that’s because I try to learn from them, and constantly improve. Go into a dungeon with a chip on your shoulder and start telling people they’re dumb for running things efficiently and sure you’re going to be met with the same toxicity you’re emitting.

There are bad apples in any group though, I’ve seen just as much hate and toxicity in map chats in silverwastes as I have in my time PUGing dungeons. Again though, that goes both ways, both the side of people expecting perfection, and those complaining because they’re unable to keep up.

If you want to do “speed runs” (lets be honest speed runs in LFG aren’t real speed runs) take a minute and ask questions of those that are more knowledgable, learn to play better, and do your best to improve. Eventually you won’t have any issues.

Personally some of my best times playing were in Arah “p1” groups where I get to play with some new players and lead them through teaching them encounters to the best of my ability (which again is limited). I do really enjoy my new guild that does real speed run tactics though as I feel pushed. It’s all different environments and I try to fit myself to the environment I’m in to the best of my ability, and I’ve very rarely has any real issues.

TL : DR – don’t join groups you aren’t a fit for, and try to play better and try and fit the groups you join and you won’t have issues. I concede therea re bad apples, but lumping everyone together is pretty dumb too.

Jerus.4350:

The toxicity in PUG dungeons has a lot to do with what groups you join. A “p1” will generally be a lot less annoying than a “p1 zerk, exp, ping gear”

As someone who’s played a lot fo MMOs over 16 years, GW2 really isn’t any worse than other ones, it simply has this LFG system which has people lumped together a lot more often. In other games the speed runners will generally keep to themselves, here they post an LFG and get people who aren’t really set up and ready for htat, or think they are but really aren’t, and that’s where the toxicity starts.

I do take offense to the idea that the speed runners are at fault though, especially that the people active on the forums are bad. You have guilds like NOOB and ARES that actively try to invite people who are interested in learning dungeons and teach them, yet here we sit being bad mouthed for being too “elitist”. Show an interest in getting better and the people who are int he know will love you. I’m FAR from perfect, but I’ve felt nothing but love from the dungeon community, and I really feel that’s because I try to learn from them, and constantly improve. Go into a dungeon with a chip on your shoulder and start telling people they’re dumb for running things efficiently and sure you’re going to be met with the same toxicity you’re emitting.

There are bad apples in any group though, I’ve seen just as much hate and toxicity in map chats in silverwastes as I have in my time PUGing dungeons. Again though, that goes both ways, both the side of people expecting perfection, and those complaining because they’re unable to keep up.

If you want to do “speed runs” (lets be honest speed runs in LFG aren’t real speed runs) take a minute and ask questions of those that are more knowledgable, learn to play better, and do your best to improve. Eventually you won’t have any issues.

Personally some of my best times playing were in Arah “p1” groups where I get to play with some new players and lead them through teaching them encounters to the best of my ability (which again is limited). I do really enjoy my new guild that does real speed run tactics though as I feel pushed. It’s all different environments and I try to fit myself to the environment I’m in to the best of my ability, and I’ve very rarely has any real issues.

TL : DR – don’t join groups you aren’t a fit for, and try to play better and try and fit the groups you join and you won’t have issues. I concede therea re bad apples, but lumping everyone together is pretty dumb too.

no offense intended, and it isnt everyone, but the fact that more than half the people in a thread were supporting kicking people for watching cutscenes during a story dungeon (which means its unlikely it was advertised as speed run) Heck even the guy who is supposed to be your representitive to anet said that kicking people for watching cutscenes in a story dungeon, which by the way is intended to be for story, and has less rewards than other dungeons for this purpose, is perfectly cool.

That told me a lot about the dungeon community, although there were some people, like yourself i believe, who said it probably was kitten move.

now maybe the OP was lying, or whatever, but peoples argument in the thread amounted to, my way or the high way, because i said so, they kept talking about what the others should follow what the group says, and ignored the fact that it only takes 2 people to kick someone, so its not even necessarilly a majority that wanted a kick.

they may be nice guys to you, but they represented themselves as the type of people who think its ok to destroy people time and effort on whim of their own, and fairly unflexible, unforgiving, and unwelcoming.

Wethospu.6437:

The dark side is my master.

Father Wethospu has spoken.

Caeledh.5437:

Generally speaking I think GW2’s designers have done a really good job of creating a pro-social play environment. Design really encourages players helping each other out.

Except for dungeons. I wouldn’t say my experience has been universally bad in dungeons. It’s generally been ok. But in terms of both frequency and severity, GW2 easily tops all other MMOs for dungeon nastiness.

There is a definite upside to being able to farm dungeons quickly for gold, fragments, tokens etc. But the downside is that there are a lot of very uptight and impatient players who have mega rage meltdowns at the slightest hiccup.

I was speaking to someone earlier in the week who was asking about the best ways to get gold in map chat and I naturally suggested dungeons. But they’d tried that and seen one of those meltdowns and were so not keen to see any more.

I think this aspect of the game’s design might need more thought.

there’s no dark side. If you joing a speed run group and don’tknow enough to do a speed run, and slow the group down, then you are going to be probably kicked or somebody is going to tell you to gtfo.

And they would be right.

Most of the pugs are not advertised as speed runs meta zerker or leave, and joining those groups you should be ok, as long as you warn them you don’t know the dungeon. There are some parts where somebody who doesn’t know what he is doing can really cause a mess. Saying it aloud so somebody can explain how the encounter works helps a lot, and people don’t mind explaining.

The only real dark side of speed runs is that they are boring. But it’s not the run’s fault. It’s the dungeon designed to be awful, and punish players for actually trying to enjoy it.

The only issue of dungeon LFG is the people’s inability to read.
They just press join without reading a single freaking word.

They deserve to be kicked if I list specific requirements on the post and they do not meet it. It’s like job resume. If I ask for a certain requirement and you do not even read it and try to sneak in without meeting my expectation, there’s no excuse or forgiveness that we end up dismissing you and kick you out of the group.

Don’t bother talking about how exceptionally different you are, or how kitten we are, because you do not show respect in the first place by not reading the post and the requirement.

For people that haven’t seen any toxic mentality…
Last week alone, on storymodes AC and CM that stated “storymode” on LFG. I have seen a guy kicked with 300ap because his ap was too low. One time a newbie was kicked from AC last boss because he didn’t waypoint to last boss fast enough (tried to run instead, died and kicked – we had no verbal fights before). Today at CM storymode a 3k ap guy decided he wants everyone to stack at corner at the point where you throw water on the drunk norn… he proceeded to just stand there for the rest of the fight and refused to “help” us until the boss had like 10% hp. Then proceeded to call us all noobs and idiots that can’t read.

And these are JUST the storymodes.

Usually this stuff doesn’t happen when I’m on my main acc (15k AP), but when I’m on my 2nd acc (1k ap), it seems to happen more.

Aomine.5012:

The only issue of dungeon LFG is the people’s inability to read.
They just press join without reading a single freaking word.

They deserve to be kicked if I list specific requirements on the post and they do not meet it. It’s like job resume. If I ask for a certain requirement and you do not even read it and try to sneak in without meeting my expectation, there’s no excuse or forgiveness that we end up dismissing you and kick you out of the group.

Don’t bother talking about how exceptionally different you are, or how kitten we are, because you do not show respect in the first place by not reading the post and the requirement.

exactly this.

This is because we have same content (namely dungeons) for over 2,5 years. Everyone joining speed clear groups is expected to know where to stand and what to do in order to achieve the best possible time so easy remedy would be not joining speed clear groups (these are usually advertized in LFG as “only experienced”, “zerker XY proffesion only + exp” etc.).

But since we have same content for so long, this expectation of everyone knowing every encounter is pouring into more casual LFGs too. The only thing that devs can do about this is making new content. Players should always admit they don’t know this or that path. You will be surprised how often they won’t kick you but rather explain each encounter.

another game i play has a few features that make it overall a better system though it has flaws.

• They have a party finder, which is like lfg
• they have duty finder which automatically places you in the first group that wants to do your selected instance
  this separates the people who have a clear strong desire for specific setups, or special needs, and people who just want to do content.
• vote kicking requires 50% at least to pass (though this can be a problem in 4 man groups)
• leaving a party 3 times gives you a penalty, if the party is currently full.
• party can vote to abandon the duty with no penalties
• players new to a dungeon give bonus tokens for those.

All together this tends to make people using duty finder slightly less aholish.
newbs and midrange people have a means of joining content where they are not expected to be perfect.
Which isnt to say they arent aholish at all, There are still going to be kitten moments, but overall pugging is not a stressful experience, and you can literally do it all day without much problem.
id say 50% of gw2 pug dungeons i have done, have some aholish behavior/moments, and generally have a fairly large disconnect between how players think things should be done.

dungeons are a mix for me in my experiences.
When i PUG i normally get a quiet group that just says “hi, p1, lets kitten, go” and in general knows what its doing.
There are also those who dont know what they are doing but keep quiet about it…making us fail ,and then sometimes someone tries to explain and other times they rage quit or start kicking people.

On the other hand when i went with my guildies or friends ive seen a great amount of helping and effort put into the group.

Ive also been on several “learning” dungeon runs,where there was 1-2 “veterans” and 3-4 noobs that were there to learn the corners and tricks of dungeons.

so yeah. Depends on with who you are going

Who are you all to comment my playstyle? Elitists. I gearcheck how I want, you can’t tell me how to play.