Guild Wars 2

Here is what I suggest, have a “Beginner” check box in LFG that is always checked unless the player uncheck them. This option is autosaved so once you uncheck it will always be unchecked. This way we shift the blame in LFG where people can say, if you didn’t want to get kicked you shouldn’t have unchecked that beginner box.

DonQuack.9025:

phys.7689:

I think the op, who was a lot more tactful, and probably respectful than me has a valid point. Something about something brings out more negative dungeon runs for the non proffesional dungeon player in this game than in other games.

Most other games have built in gear/level/role checks. The “casuals” cant play with “pro” Most other games have easily identifiable roles. Youre not going to find a healer who specs into earth damage just because.

The “problem” with gw2 is that everyone can.

And no offence intended but what games are you speaking of? I cant think of one mmo where the dungeon community isnt thought of as kittens by the “casuals” despite pretty much everything the “casuals” do is because of said community.

they got problems still of course, but they are less vocal and there are less incidents

The fact that their are harder roles, and gear minimums may be a factor.

Also im not just going off the general opinions, but i have literally pugged for like hours the other day and had no big beefs or rage quits, in gw2, i can usually go maybe 4 runs before there is some issue or another. People say thanks for the game, and good luck on your drops.

Perhaps its also because there is a clearer line between elite content and regular content.

regardless its not as bad.

DonQuack.9025:

phys.7689:

I think the op, who was a lot more tactful, and probably respectful than me has a valid point. Something about something brings out more negative dungeon runs for the non proffesional dungeon player in this game than in other games.

Most other games have built in gear/level/role checks. The “casuals” cant play with “pro” Most other games have easily identifiable roles. Youre not going to find a healer who specs into earth damage just because.

The “problem” with gw2 is that everyone can.

And no offence intended but what games are you speaking of? I cant think of one mmo where the dungeon community isnt thought of as kittens by the “casuals” despite pretty much everything the “casuals” do is because of said community.

I’m pretty sure it’s FFXIV:ARR.

The community there is “nice” because they are bribed by the game to carry new players. That and there’s an inspect function and developed DPS meters so players have to be more honest when it comes to joining groups.

The “story mode” encounters are also easy enough in such a way that if someone does want to watch the cutscenes, the other people in the party are likely so highly geared that they can simply move on without the person watching.

FFXIV also has a much better chat system where you can actually see the chat from all the “groups” (guild + linkshell) you belong to all the time, instead of being forced to primarily represent one. This also makes it easier to find groups because when you ask in guild/linkshell chat for something you’re assured everyone in that group has seen your request.

EcoRI.9273:

Here is what I suggest, have a “Beginner” check box in LFG that is always checked unless the player uncheck them. This option is autosaved so once you uncheck it will always be unchecked. This way we shift the blame in LFG where people can say, if you didn’t want to get kicked you shouldn’t have unchecked that beginner box.

i think there probably needs to be 3 options.
because a lot of people dont want to be thought of as beginner
novice, hero, and god of the arena
people can accept being a hero.

Nope. To properly fix “problem” content needs to

1. Make it guild bound. aka no more pugging possible. thus own fault for joining kittenty guild.

2. Gear bound. Dont have x gear you will pretty much die. Not only things like agony except everywhere and quick killing. but need x hp, atk, prec w.e.

3.Inspect tool.

4. One does not join groups via lfg. They REQUEST to join groups and Group lead can inspect.

5. PROPER punishment for ALL who abuse kick function.
6. PROPER punishment for all those who abuse listed req in lfg.
7. PROPER punishment for all who are abusive in groups.

or just take it all out and make it matchmaking.

You q up for a dungeon and gg.

Dave.2536:

DonQuack.9025:

phys.7689:

I think the op, who was a lot more tactful, and probably respectful than me has a valid point. Something about something brings out more negative dungeon runs for the non proffesional dungeon player in this game than in other games.

Most other games have built in gear/level/role checks. The “casuals” cant play with “pro” Most other games have easily identifiable roles. Youre not going to find a healer who specs into earth damage just because.

The “problem” with gw2 is that everyone can.

And no offence intended but what games are you speaking of? I cant think of one mmo where the dungeon community isnt thought of as kittens by the “casuals” despite pretty much everything the “casuals” do is because of said community.

I’m pretty sure it’s FFXIV:ARR.

The community there is “nice” because they are bribed by the game to carry new players. That and there’s an inspect function and developed DPS meters so players have to be more honest when it comes to joining groups.

The “story mode” encounters are also easy enough in such a way that if someone does want to watch the cutscenes, the other people in the party are likely so highly geared that they can simply move on without the person watching.

FFXIV also has a much better chat system where you can actually see the chat from all the “groups” (guild + linkshell) you belong to all the time, instead of being forced to primarily represent one. This also makes it easier to find groups because when you ask in guild/linkshell chat for something you’re assured everyone in that group has seen your request.

if bribery is what it takes, hey whatever works.

at the end of the day all these little systems somehow make dungeons something a lot of people do, and they are generally less likely to go really really bad.

I wouldnt mind being paid 1g per newb I carry. Its those 11k ap ones.

As for ffxiv. There is a difference in cutscenes. In gw2 the world stops. “No one” would care if someone watched the cutscene if it were like that here. Though the person might care as prolly can kill quite a few bosses in the time it takes a cutscene to play.

phys.7689:

if bribery is what it takes, hey whatever works.

at the end of the day all these little systems somehow make dungeons something a lot of people do, and they are generally less likely to go really really bad.

I’m not really sure it’s even mostly the bribery (although it certainly doesn’t hurt), as much as the game having all the tools available for people to filter out players who clearly don’t belong, having a preemptive effect of making sure players are indeed more careful about figuring out who doesn’t belong.

Inspect and DPS (and aggro/heal) meters helps to show who is/isn’t pulling their weight, as well as provide a pretty good indication of who might be newer to the game.

Actual endgame difficulty content and a pretty clear skill/gear gate behind them also help separate the casual and hardcore groups, as the casuals know they will not be doing that content until the next gear treadmill/echo patch hits, and the hardcores no long have any need to run the easy stuff.

*On the other hand, I do feel that the GW2 community is far better in terms of offering “proactive help”, as guides and wikis are updated and maintained extremely well. We may not necessarily be as helpful while inside the dungeon, but that should not invalidate all the work that we put in when we’re not doing them.

DonQuack.9025:

I wouldnt mind being paid 1g per newb I carry. Its those 11k ap ones.

As for ffxiv. There is a difference in cutscenes. In gw2 the world stops. “No one” would care if someone watched the cutscene if it were like that here. Though the person might care as prolly can kill quite a few bosses in the time it takes a cutscene to play.

some people want people to skip still, but they wouldnt kick someone over it. but you go into a pug,
I think the fact that they have a duty finder AND an lfg like system helps a lot. The normals in gw2 join lfgs because thats the only system, and they want to get something done.
in ffxiv people join lfgs because they want something the duty finder doesnt offer, something specific, and they can set the options so they get close to what they are looking for.
you set up 2 warriors 1 mesmer and necro then only 2 warriors 1 mesmer and healer can join.

frifox.5283:

GiraffeRampage.6420:

if you join a zerker only group and youre a warrior in full exotic zerker gear and have an ascended gs, with ascended rings and amulet but a low AP score and get kicked because of it,

“If you join…” is the problem.

I have 480 AP. I create my own lfgs, usually along the lines of the elitist “exp zerks only”. Like that I pug Arah daily, both on NA and EU. I have never been kicked in past 2 months of pugventuring.

So it seems the solution is to make your own lfg. Quite easy, right?

How is it possible to have 480 AP and be level 80? I don’t understand, are you intentionally avoiding achievements?

@shiyo

Tomes/ dungeons all you need to do

I think I played with a 340ap lvl 80 today

Shiyo.3578:

Also, anyone below 3k AP is nearly always new to dungeons and doesn’t know how to play. Sub 1k AP 80’s make no sense and ALWAYS have no idea what they’re doing at all.

Again this is my exact point as to why going off AP score is a terrible way to judge someones skill. To counter your opinion, do you kick someone who has an AP of 750 but has full zerker CoF gear and exotic weapons? Because obviously they have ran that particular dungeon a few dozen times. but i guess going off what you claim, they clearly dont know what their doing…..give me a break, please. Stop judging off AP score, its very inaccurate of someones skill at their proff and mechanics of dungeons.

Ive 90% of people with over 12kap are bad at the game.
^ Fact.

DonQuack.9025:

90% of people with any amount of AP are bad at the game.
^ Fact.

fixed

Dave.2536:

DonQuack.9025:

90% of people are just bad
^ Fact.

fixed

double fixed

Fun fact: When i got my Dungeon Master achievement, full Medium Arah/TA set + some weapons, as well as almost the whole ASC collection (only need those heavy pants for it to be complete) i had just about 2K AP. That was over a year ago, now it’s 3,5K AP.

Well, if PUGging dungeons, expecially arah, is nearly all you do, you don’t end up getting that many achievements. I also went in-active whenever a major event happened…idk why, bad timing, i guess.
Also, when i’m playing and not running a dungeon, it’s kinda like…how should i explain it…? Ah yes, do you know the curiosity-core from Portal? Yeah, that’s me, when playing GW2 on the PvE maps.

On the other hand, my little brother with his 12K AP only knows a little bit about ASC p1+p3.

phys.7689:

Regardless, in game, dungeons tend to get negative more often than in other games.

Honestly man, GW1 was much more exclusive. You had to ping skills before dungeons and fit an exact role. GW2 lets you join whatever group with whatever build. It isn’t perfect but let’s not say it’s worse than any other games. In fact, after both WoW and GW1, I think GW2’s system is the most forgiving I’ve played.

phys.7689:

Something about something brings out more negative dungeon runs for the non proffesional dungeon player in this game than in other games.

I dont think this is actually a good thing for dungeon gameplay as a whole, i think that the more people who enjoy and play dungeons, the more likely they are to get better/more development. While its fine to have elite groups and special teams, the basic regular dungeon politics shouldnt feel unapproachable

I agree. They shouldn’t feel unapproachable. That’s the RNG of MMOs though. Some people are kittens, others are nice, some people had a rough day at work, some people are feeling extra helpful, etc…

It depends who you get in a PuG. You talk about every 4 runs or something you run into a jerk. Take a look around man. That’s daily life. Some people are rude.

Glad you reconsidered the broad brush painting of the whole community. Most of the good players I know are very helpful and most of the great ones are the ones posting solo videos and guides on a weekly basis.

There are guilds and posts dedicated to helping new players to their feet in dungeons. These are the things worth taking into consideration. Most players I’ve ever been around have been goons who ran AC and CoF and think they know a kitten thing about the game’s mechanics. They’re pretty bad themselves so they rage. Good players don’t care if you suck. They’ll just run ahead and carry (probably poking a bit of fun in TS but still willing to be friendly and helpful).

Caeledh.5437:

Generally speaking I think GW2’s designers have done a really good job of creating a pro-social play environment. Design really encourages players helping each other out.

Except for dungeons. I wouldn’t say my experience has been universally bad in dungeons. It’s generally been ok. But in terms of both frequency and severity, GW2 easily tops all other MMOs for dungeon nastiness.

There is a definite upside to being able to farm dungeons quickly for gold, fragments, tokens etc. But the downside is that there are a lot of very uptight and impatient players who have mega rage meltdowns at the slightest hiccup.

I was speaking to someone earlier in the week who was asking about the best ways to get gold in map chat and I naturally suggested dungeons. But they’d tried that and seen one of those meltdowns and were so not keen to see any more.

I think this aspect of the game’s design might need more thought.

The game is fine. This is a people problem.

If a person underperforms people who care about performance will kick or abuse that person for not being up to the standards they request.

It’s as simple as that really.

Personally I completely disagree with the abuse. A simple kick is enough. Get them out of your hair and get back on track to making gold is what I feel is best. But that’s just me.

If people want to avoid these unpleasant experiences they should stay away from parties that are not for them.

GiraffeRampage.6420:

I agree definitely, no other mmo that i have played has been as mean and brutal towards other players especially to new players who stumble into an exp dungeon for the first time. Not even WoW is that bad during heroic dungeons, people are extremely helpful. The fact that a majority of “elite” gw2 players kick other players out of dungeons just because their AP arent in the thousands is ridiculous which is an absolutley terrible way to judge skill. Im a newer player and my brother is the one who brought me into gw2 and hes been playing since 2013 but his AP’s are only in the 900’s because he plays casually and he still gets kicked just because of that.

And he gets kicked precisely because people don’t want someone who plays casually. If they wanted that 900 ap would be fine.
They want someone who’s been playing since 2012 on release – who averages 3-4 hours every day and has played each day ever since the game came out.
They want someone at 20k AP who knows the game by heart.

You can’t expect people who don’t want to play with casual players to force themselves to do it just because.
Find people who will accept and teach you the basics. Learn, Improve and in time you’ll run with the experienced players.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Whatever other factors might or might not be involved, players around since launch have been doing the same paths for nearly 2.5 years. Another factor is that the difficulty curve in a GW2 dungeon is based primarily on knowledge and timing. If you know what’s coming and have the timing, the fights will not seem hard. If you don’t know what’s coming, and/or don’t have the timing down, the fights can be very hard.

People who are already bored with the dungeons don’t want to return to the experience of having to struggle to complete a path because the other players don’t know the path. The seasoned dungeon runners have “paid their dues,” in a sense, and don’t always want to have to endure the experience of others paying theirs.

The unfortunate part of that is that they’re not bringing new blood in to replace the players who drop the game. However, with the lack of attention to the dungeon game, perhaps they think that the writing is on the wall. It may be that, for some, investing in the long term health of the dungeon game by bringing in new blood is not worth the effort.

Exactly this – I’ve had more than my share of new/inexperienced players to last me well into and after GW3.
If people want to be taught – that’s easy now. There are written guides, youtube guides and a lot of the dungeon forum community organizes teaching runs.
There are a lot of players who are willing to teach – so before you join a party make sure you know what you’re doing.

I know that this goes against the “just play the game” and go from there mentality but you have to understand that the people who are kicking now did dungeons for the first time 2.5 years ago. They’ve been doing them over and over and over again and you can’t really have them go back in time to 2.5 years ago when the content was fine and not knowing it by heart was acceptable.

phys.7689:

the dungeon community should actually be for everyone who likes the gameplay of dungeons.

See your response shows a lot here.

You want people to follow what you say, so you make guides, cool
if people dont follow what you say, they are the enemy, and are objectively stupid.

regardless of your rightness or wrongness about anything mechanic related, thats the attitude that people dont like that makes them want to avoid dungeons, and dealing with that mindset.

Sure, there are hardheads on the other side,
half the time the complaint people have isnt even about one side or the other side, its that when they are trying to do a dungeon, these two sides will have a big argument in the middle of the dungeon, and someone will rage quit, or vote kick.

a lot of people dont want to do that, they want to work together to beat a dungeon meta or not, without huge blow ups because 1 guy isnt following meta.

and no, that isnt confined just to lfgs that ask for speed clears/ zerk metas etc.

you think im trolling when i say people outside of the dungeon community think that dungeons are filled with drama and control freaks? look at the op, thats what people really think

1. He makes guides for getting things done fast. If you don’t follow the guides don’t join groups that care about doing things fast.

2. Attitude has nothing to do with it. You either follow the guides and play with people that care about the guides or don’t follow them and expect being kicked from those groups.

3.

a lot of people dont want to do that, they want to work together to beat a dungeon meta or not, without huge blow ups because 1 guy isnt following meta.

This was a thing 2.5 years ago. Nobody does dungeons to “work thgether and beat a duongen” these days.
Most players have already done the “beat a dungeon” step a few hundred times by now.

So find those players who haven’t or find those who are willing to be patient and tolerant. Don’t take it out on the rest of us just because you weren’t here 2.5 years ago and feel left out.

Harper.4173:

phys.7689:

the dungeon community should actually be for everyone who likes the gameplay of dungeons.

See your response shows a lot here.

You want people to follow what you say, so you make guides, cool
if people dont follow what you say, they are the enemy, and are objectively stupid.

regardless of your rightness or wrongness about anything mechanic related, thats the attitude that people dont like that makes them want to avoid dungeons, and dealing with that mindset.

Sure, there are hardheads on the other side,
half the time the complaint people have isnt even about one side or the other side, its that when they are trying to do a dungeon, these two sides will have a big argument in the middle of the dungeon, and someone will rage quit, or vote kick.

a lot of people dont want to do that, they want to work together to beat a dungeon meta or not, without huge blow ups because 1 guy isnt following meta.

and no, that isnt confined just to lfgs that ask for speed clears/ zerk metas etc.

you think im trolling when i say people outside of the dungeon community think that dungeons are filled with drama and control freaks? look at the op, thats what people really think

1. He makes guides for getting things done fast. If you don’t follow the guides don’t join groups that care about doing things fast.

2. Attitude has nothing to do with it. You either follow the guides and play with people that care about the guides or don’t follow them and expect being kicked from those groups.

3.

a lot of people dont want to do that, they want to work together to beat a dungeon meta or not, without huge blow ups because 1 guy isnt following meta.

This was a thing 2.5 years ago. Nobody does dungeons to “work thgether and beat a duongen” these days.
Most players have already done the “beat a dungeon” step a few hundred times by now.

So find those players who haven’t or find those who are willing to be patient and tolerant. Don’t take it out on the rest of us just because you weren’t here 2.5 years ago and feel left out.

you missed the part where this happens in parties whether there is a zerker meta whatever request or not.

this is what happens when a normal player tries to play the game, and though the read the guides thing makes sense for hardcore dungeon running, it shouldnt really be the default expectation of non meta requested LFGs.

and yeah i have been playing the game from day 1, its not really about me, i expect crap to go wrong, and people to be aholes when i pug. Thing is, i found out the frequency of the drama is much lower in some other games, the question is why is that, and how can that be brought into this game without screwing everything up.

phys.7689:

Harper.4173:

phys.7689:

the dungeon community should actually be for everyone who likes the gameplay of dungeons.

See your response shows a lot here.

You want people to follow what you say, so you make guides, cool
if people dont follow what you say, they are the enemy, and are objectively stupid.

regardless of your rightness or wrongness about anything mechanic related, thats the attitude that people dont like that makes them want to avoid dungeons, and dealing with that mindset.

Sure, there are hardheads on the other side,
half the time the complaint people have isnt even about one side or the other side, its that when they are trying to do a dungeon, these two sides will have a big argument in the middle of the dungeon, and someone will rage quit, or vote kick.

a lot of people dont want to do that, they want to work together to beat a dungeon meta or not, without huge blow ups because 1 guy isnt following meta.

and no, that isnt confined just to lfgs that ask for speed clears/ zerk metas etc.

you think im trolling when i say people outside of the dungeon community think that dungeons are filled with drama and control freaks? look at the op, thats what people really think

1. He makes guides for getting things done fast. If you don’t follow the guides don’t join groups that care about doing things fast.

2. Attitude has nothing to do with it. You either follow the guides and play with people that care about the guides or don’t follow them and expect being kicked from those groups.

3.

a lot of people dont want to do that, they want to work together to beat a dungeon meta or not, without huge blow ups because 1 guy isnt following meta.

This was a thing 2.5 years ago. Nobody does dungeons to “work thgether and beat a duongen” these days.
Most players have already done the “beat a dungeon” step a few hundred times by now.

So find those players who haven’t or find those who are willing to be patient and tolerant. Don’t take it out on the rest of us just because you weren’t here 2.5 years ago and feel left out.

you missed the part where this happens in parties whether there is a zerker meta whatever request or not.

this is what happens when a normal player tries to play the game, and though the read the guides thing makes sense for hardcore dungeon running, it shouldnt really be the default expectation of non meta requested LFGs.

and yeah i have been playing the game from day 1, its not really about me, i expect crap to go wrong, and people to be aholes when i pug. Thing is, i found out the frequency of the drama is much lower in some other games, the question is why is that, and how can that be brought into this game without screwing everything up.

I always ask if I’m joining an LFG that doesn’t say all welcome, or non-stack, etc.

Unfortunately, there are some meta runners that decide that just p1 or p2 is enough. And then wonder why non-meta players join. And there are likely a few who don’t read the LFG descriptions as well. But you’re free and clear to kick them as they don’t meet the group requirements (you aren’t requiring anything, they’re trying to force you to).

Saint.5647:

Good players don’t care if you suck. They’ll just run ahead and carry (probably poking a bit of fun in TS but still willing to be friendly and helpful).

Hey now, plenty of good players won’t even run ahead! ‘Cause it’s not much fun if you’re constantly getting left behind by the rest of the group at every fight or something.

(Well, I’m not sure I can claim to be good. But I know when my friends and I pug, we’re expecting we might have to carry a bit, and we’re not gonna carry just by rushing ahead and duoing everything or anything like that.)

Seera.5916:

phys.7689:

Harper.4173:

phys.7689:

the dungeon community should actually be for everyone who likes the gameplay of dungeons.

See your response shows a lot here.

You want people to follow what you say, so you make guides, cool
if people dont follow what you say, they are the enemy, and are objectively stupid.

regardless of your rightness or wrongness about anything mechanic related, thats the attitude that people dont like that makes them want to avoid dungeons, and dealing with that mindset.

Sure, there are hardheads on the other side,
half the time the complaint people have isnt even about one side or the other side, its that when they are trying to do a dungeon, these two sides will have a big argument in the middle of the dungeon, and someone will rage quit, or vote kick.

a lot of people dont want to do that, they want to work together to beat a dungeon meta or not, without huge blow ups because 1 guy isnt following meta.

and no, that isnt confined just to lfgs that ask for speed clears/ zerk metas etc.

you think im trolling when i say people outside of the dungeon community think that dungeons are filled with drama and control freaks? look at the op, thats what people really think

1. He makes guides for getting things done fast. If you don’t follow the guides don’t join groups that care about doing things fast.

2. Attitude has nothing to do with it. You either follow the guides and play with people that care about the guides or don’t follow them and expect being kicked from those groups.

3.

a lot of people dont want to do that, they want to work together to beat a dungeon meta or not, without huge blow ups because 1 guy isnt following meta.

This was a thing 2.5 years ago. Nobody does dungeons to “work thgether and beat a duongen” these days.
Most players have already done the “beat a dungeon” step a few hundred times by now.

So find those players who haven’t or find those who are willing to be patient and tolerant. Don’t take it out on the rest of us just because you weren’t here 2.5 years ago and feel left out.

you missed the part where this happens in parties whether there is a zerker meta whatever request or not.

this is what happens when a normal player tries to play the game, and though the read the guides thing makes sense for hardcore dungeon running, it shouldnt really be the default expectation of non meta requested LFGs.

and yeah i have been playing the game from day 1, its not really about me, i expect crap to go wrong, and people to be aholes when i pug. Thing is, i found out the frequency of the drama is much lower in some other games, the question is why is that, and how can that be brought into this game without screwing everything up.

I always ask if I’m joining an LFG that doesn’t say all welcome, or non-stack, etc.

Unfortunately, there are some meta runners that decide that just p1 or p2 is enough. And then wonder why non-meta players join. And there are likely a few who don’t read the LFG descriptions as well. But you’re free and clear to kick them as they don’t meet the group requirements (you aren’t requiring anything, they’re trying to force you to).

i dont like this idea of kicking people so easily, maybe Im just crazy, but it doesnt feel like people just kicking people all the time will generate a positive feeling about dungeon running.

The other game has kick, and i most of the times i have seen it used it was for a disconnect or afking. Sometimes someone being a super kitten.

Thing is, i found out the frequency of the drama is much lower in some other games, the question is why is that, and how can that be brought into this game without screwing everything up.

Other games don’t “force” the casual and hardcore players to mingle as much as GW2 does. FFXIV has a pretty clear line between hardcore content (Coil/primals) and more casual stuff (whatever they farm for tomes now), and the really hardcore players no longer have much reason to venture back into the casual content, and especially not the story line stuff. Even the “bribes” are not enough to entice the very elite.

GW2 puts some of its most lucrative rewards in the easy content while the harder stuff rewards trash in comparison. You then end up with everyone of all sorts of abilities being driven to run the same content.

i dont like this idea of kicking people so easily, maybe Im just crazy, but it doesnt feel like people just kicking people all the time will generate a positive feeling about dungeon running.

Neither does asking for zerker players for FotM 50 and getting a player obviously in some sort of defensive gear, a bunch of magic find food+boosters, and a corruption sigil. I suspect that with DPS meters and/or the inspect function I would not have run into such a player (as it would have been clear to him to not join my party), and such an incident would have been avoided.

In exchange for more peaceful behavior after the group is formed, are you willing to accept Inspect and DPS meters? We in the dungeon community would instantly accept that proposal in overwhelming numbers.

The problem isn’t even casual vs hardcore, it’s players who actually try and do their best have to mingle with bads who just want or are too ignorant and require carrying.

fishball.7204:

The problem isn’t even casual vs hardcore, it’s players who actually try and do their best have to mingle with bads who just want or are too ignorant and require carrying.

ding ding ding we have a winner.

Dave.2536:

Thing is, i found out the frequency of the drama is much lower in some other games, the question is why is that, and how can that be brought into this game without screwing everything up.

Other games don’t “force” the casual and hardcore players to mingle as much as GW2 does. FFXIV has a pretty clear line between hardcore content (Coil/primals) and more casual stuff (whatever they farm for tomes now), and the really hardcore players no longer have much reason to venture back into the casual content, and especially not the story line stuff. Even the “bribes” are not enough to entice the very elite.

GW2 puts some of its most lucrative rewards in the easy content while the harder stuff rewards trash in comparison. You then end up with everyone of all sorts of abilities being driven to run the same content.

i dont like this idea of kicking people so easily, maybe Im just crazy, but it doesnt feel like people just kicking people all the time will generate a positive feeling about dungeon running.

Neither does asking for zerker players for FotM 50 and getting a player obviously in some sort of defensive gear, a bunch of magic find food+boosters, and a corruption sigil. I suspect that with DPS meters and/or the inspect function I would not have run into such a player (as it would have been clear to him to not join my party), and such an incident would have been avoided.

In exchange for more peaceful behavior after the group is formed, are you willing to accept Inspect and DPS meters? We in the dungeon community would instantly accept that proposal in overwhelming numbers.

inspect isnt really that relevant in ffxiv, they have a min gear level, and winning most encounters is more about learning the encounter than how high you are above that min requirement.

As far as the elite content, much higher rate of rage there, but thats usually after failing multiple times, as far as the dps meter, in ffxiv i never noticed it, only the agro meter. I dont really think there is much advantage to a dps meter in gw2 anyhow. the guy who does the most damage, is probably getting 25 might stacks, fury and vulnerability from some one else/team effort.

i do agree that their isnt a clear delineation between regular dungeon play and hardcore dungeon play.

and to be clear, on the kicking, she was recommending i/we kick players who join parties with no real meta announcement and try to enforce a specific playstyle. And i was saying i dont think i would want to be kicking people so easily.

See, heres the thing the average guy, or newb sees a kick, hes like kitten , things are pretty unforgiving, this guy got kicked for saying lets stack in the corner/not stack in the corner. Average player doesnt really want to see that stuff, even if its not him. They just want things to go relatively smoothly.

Just because you don’t think there are pros to a DPS meter (or inspect) in this game does not mean that there actually aren’t any.

Meters and inspect mainly filter out the people who aren’t pulling their weight in a group, and serve as a preemptive filter against people who would try to join a group they clearly don’t belong in. When was the last time you saw a lvl 80 DPS try to join a lvl 100+ speed run group? We get that kind of stuff all the time in GW2. In other words, a lot of the effect happens preemptively and in the subconscious. Problems are prevented before they happen and this is why you don’t see any.

PS: gear requirements in FFXIV are a joke. They’re pretty much the equivalent to asking for level 75 white gear for CoF or level 80 green gear for FotM 50.

EDIT:

and to be clear, on the kicking, she was recommending i/we kick players who join parties with no real meta announcement and try to enforce a specific playstyle.

I don’t endorse that. Very few in this forum endorse that. Because most of us are either forgiving and patient enough to deal with bad players, or we’re not masochist enough to try to make a group without specifying clear expectations.

Just in case it needs to be said, do not even think of trying to pin a “culture of kicking” for kicks of the players who very clearly do disregard the LFG posting when they join a group with clearly set expectations.

phys.7689:

i dont like this idea of kicking people so easily, maybe Im just crazy, but it doesnt feel like people just kicking people all the time will generate a positive feeling about dungeon running.

The other game has kick, and i most of the times i have seen it used it was for a disconnect or afking. Sometimes someone being a super kitten.

So if I post an LFG with a requirement of X and someone joins who does not meet requirement X, I’m supposed to just settle?

That X could be:

• Level 80 zerker, exp
• Anyone welcome [the one who doesn’t meet this requirement would be the one who yells at other members for not being meta or demanding that members ping gear for purposes other than related to what skin is that]

That sounds like a lose/lose situation. The zerkers get a slow run and the casuals get yelled at for slowing the run down.

Kicking those who don’t fit the requirements ends up being most times a 5 win and 1 loses. The 5 winners being the 5 party members that go into the dungeon who meet the requirements. They have a fun time going through as fast as possible or killing every mob they see depending on what the requirements were. The 1 loser was the one who got kicked when they were the type who doesn’t read the LFG description or joins groups they know they don’t fit just to cause trouble.

There are rare occasions where it is a win/win situation. The situation where a person clicks on the wrong LFG or they misinterpreted a requirement. Like a new player joining a group that says P1 80 exp. They may think it’s explorable and not experienced. They’ll have a much better time with a group that’s accommodating new players and they won’t slow down the group that at least wants a smooth run with low chance of hiccups.

phys.7689:

Harper.4173:

phys.7689:

the dungeon community should actually be for everyone who likes the gameplay of dungeons.

See your response shows a lot here.

You want people to follow what you say, so you make guides, cool
if people dont follow what you say, they are the enemy, and are objectively stupid.

regardless of your rightness or wrongness about anything mechanic related, thats the attitude that people dont like that makes them want to avoid dungeons, and dealing with that mindset.

Sure, there are hardheads on the other side,
half the time the complaint people have isnt even about one side or the other side, its that when they are trying to do a dungeon, these two sides will have a big argument in the middle of the dungeon, and someone will rage quit, or vote kick.

a lot of people dont want to do that, they want to work together to beat a dungeon meta or not, without huge blow ups because 1 guy isnt following meta.

and no, that isnt confined just to lfgs that ask for speed clears/ zerk metas etc.

you think im trolling when i say people outside of the dungeon community think that dungeons are filled with drama and control freaks? look at the op, thats what people really think

1. He makes guides for getting things done fast. If you don’t follow the guides don’t join groups that care about doing things fast.

2. Attitude has nothing to do with it. You either follow the guides and play with people that care about the guides or don’t follow them and expect being kicked from those groups.

3.

a lot of people dont want to do that, they want to work together to beat a dungeon meta or not, without huge blow ups because 1 guy isnt following meta.

This was a thing 2.5 years ago. Nobody does dungeons to “work thgether and beat a duongen” these days.
Most players have already done the “beat a dungeon” step a few hundred times by now.

So find those players who haven’t or find those who are willing to be patient and tolerant. Don’t take it out on the rest of us just because you weren’t here 2.5 years ago and feel left out.

you missed the part where this happens in parties whether there is a zerker meta whatever request or not.

this is what happens when a normal player tries to play the game, and though the read the guides thing makes sense for hardcore dungeon running, it shouldnt really be the default expectation of non meta requested LFGs.

and yeah i have been playing the game from day 1, its not really about me, i expect crap to go wrong, and people to be aholes when i pug. Thing is, i found out the frequency of the drama is much lower in some other games, the question is why is that, and how can that be brought into this game without screwing everything up.

If a non-meta player comes into a meta run you kick him and you’ve solved your problem.
Why must there be such drama if a meta player joins a non-meta run? Just kick him and be done with it.

Why must we post and repost on the forums about it?

If he’s not the kind of player you wanted and advertised for – regardless of what group he belongs in – kick and replace.

Dave.2536:

Just because you don’t think there are pros to a DPS meter (or inspect) in this game does not mean that there actually aren’t any.

Meters and inspect mainly filter out the people who aren’t pulling their weight in a group, and serve as a preemptive filter against people who would try to join a group they clearly don’t belong in. When was the last time you saw a lvl 80 DPS try to join a lvl 100+ speed run group? We get that kind of stuff all the time in GW2. In other words, a lot of the effect happens preemptively and in the subconscious. Problems are prevented before they happen and this is why you don’t see any.

PS: gear requirements in FFXIV are a joke. They’re pretty much the equivalent to asking for level 75 white gear for CoF or level 80 green gear for FotM 50.

---

EDIT:

and to be clear, on the kicking, she was recommending i/we kick players who join parties with no real meta announcement and try to enforce a specific playstyle.

I don’t endorse that. Very few in this forum endorse that. Because most of us are either forgiving and patient enough to deal with bad players, or we’re not masochist enough to try to make a group without specifying clear expectations.

Just in case it needs to be said, do not even think of trying to pin a “culture of kicking” for kicks of the players who very clearly do disregard the LFG posting when they join a group with clearly set expectations.

actually, from what i hear, a lot of those encounters actually were initially beat at those levels, without the echo/harder mechanics
first coil requires 70, and at the time, i dont think you could get many level 80 pieces, if any. after beating it you had some level 90 pieces,

even the regular dungeons ilevels, like pharoh sirius was 48, which is meant to be one of the first dungeons you do after you hit 50, and its definately doable at 48, thats when me and my friends did it, same with garudahm/ifrit hm

nowdays everyone is generally way over level, but they were actually beat initially by people who did not have whatver level gear dropped there, that was the awesome gear, and it was harder.

fishball.7204:

The problem isn’t even casual vs hardcore, it’s players who actually try and do their best have to mingle with bads who just want or are too ignorant and require carrying.

To some point I can agree. There are people out there who take this game very seriously and do their best.

On the other side it’s not necessarily bads – some people can’t – physically and cognitively pass a certain cap in game skill ability ( whatever you want to call it). It’s not that they don’t want to – they just can’t. I’ve met quite a few and not only in this game.

We’d start a game together and they’d be at skill level 3 – a year would pass and they’d play just as much as me and still be at that level of 3 while me and others would have progressed to 10 or 12.

That however doesn’t somehow absolve them and make them better and desirable players.

Seera – personally I think the decision should be taken out of player hands entirely.

I’m talking about filters. Not DPS meters, not inspection – just basic filters.
Just like we have on the trading post.

If I start a group and set some filters – people who don’t have the requirements to join don’t even see the party and thus no conflict can arise.

Nobody can complain that I inspected and bullied them – nobody can complain that I measured their DPS.

Simply and clean my party doesn’t even show up for those who don’t have the requirements.

It boggles my mind to understand why this isn’t in the game yet.
Maybe they don’t want to fracture the player base – but we’re already doing that via kicks and infighting.

phys.7689:

actually, from what i hear, a lot of those encounters actually were initially beat at those levels, without the echo/harder mechanics
first coil requires 70, and at the time, i dont think you could get many level 80 pieces, if any. after beating it you had some level 90 pieces,

Coil up to Turn 4 was beaten fairly quickly, with the biggest obstacle for Turn 4 being figuring out where to position all the members. Coil 5 was beaten as soon as people started getting enough lvl 90 gear from the weekly-gated Mythology tomes with some supplements from Coil 1-4.

On your other point, “someone can beat it with this gear” is not the same as “anyone can beat it with this gear”. I’m sure I could clear CoF with level 75 white gear as well, but that honestly doesn’t mean I should, or that I should have to accept someone who joins my run with that gear.

As far as Garuda HM, I suspect most (may still be an understatement) people who show up there with 48 gear are getting carried by others with much stronger gear. Given that my own group could sell 2, maybe 3, slots for Garuda HM (usually wanted Garuda + Titan), with those 2 tanking whatever material the ground there was made out of, there would be no issue at all coping with people in the party bare running minimum gear.

Harper.4173:

phys.7689:

Harper.4173:

phys.7689:

the dungeon community should actually be for everyone who likes the gameplay of dungeons.

See your response shows a lot here.

You want people to follow what you say, so you make guides, cool
if people dont follow what you say, they are the enemy, and are objectively stupid.

regardless of your rightness or wrongness about anything mechanic related, thats the attitude that people dont like that makes them want to avoid dungeons, and dealing with that mindset.

Sure, there are hardheads on the other side,
half the time the complaint people have isnt even about one side or the other side, its that when they are trying to do a dungeon, these two sides will have a big argument in the middle of the dungeon, and someone will rage quit, or vote kick.

a lot of people dont want to do that, they want to work together to beat a dungeon meta or not, without huge blow ups because 1 guy isnt following meta.

and no, that isnt confined just to lfgs that ask for speed clears/ zerk metas etc.

you think im trolling when i say people outside of the dungeon community think that dungeons are filled with drama and control freaks? look at the op, thats what people really think

1. He makes guides for getting things done fast. If you don’t follow the guides don’t join groups that care about doing things fast.

2. Attitude has nothing to do with it. You either follow the guides and play with people that care about the guides or don’t follow them and expect being kicked from those groups.

3.

a lot of people dont want to do that, they want to work together to beat a dungeon meta or not, without huge blow ups because 1 guy isnt following meta.

This was a thing 2.5 years ago. Nobody does dungeons to “work thgether and beat a duongen” these days.
Most players have already done the “beat a dungeon” step a few hundred times by now.

So find those players who haven’t or find those who are willing to be patient and tolerant. Don’t take it out on the rest of us just because you weren’t here 2.5 years ago and feel left out.

you missed the part where this happens in parties whether there is a zerker meta whatever request or not.

this is what happens when a normal player tries to play the game, and though the read the guides thing makes sense for hardcore dungeon running, it shouldnt really be the default expectation of non meta requested LFGs.

and yeah i have been playing the game from day 1, its not really about me, i expect crap to go wrong, and people to be aholes when i pug. Thing is, i found out the frequency of the drama is much lower in some other games, the question is why is that, and how can that be brought into this game without screwing everything up.

If a non-meta player comes into a meta run you kick him and you’ve solved your problem.
Why must there be such drama if a meta player joins a non-meta run? Just kick him and be done with it.

Why must we post and repost on the forums about it?

If he’s not the kind of player you wanted and advertised for – regardless of what group he belongs in – kick and replace.

its hard for you to understand what im saying because you see kicking as something with no negative connotations, just a matter of course.

however, a lot of people dont see it that way, kicking to them, is the final solution when there can be no more understanding between people. Its kind of harsh, and leaves a slightly bad taste in the air. I know you dont understand this, but i suppose it comes down to empathy.

Even though some one may be being slightly jerky, you know how it would feel to get kicked, and so you dont feel good when you have to start kicking people.
Or perhaps its just logical. In their minds they see some one get kicked for a disagreement, and they think hmm… if i disagree they might kick me too…

Now this isnt everybody, but its enough that some average guy comes in, just to play, and he sees someone get kicked in the first room, they often take it away as a negative experience.

Im not saying you shouldnt be kicking people, im telling you that people getting kicked is a negative experience for a lot of players, Most especially people who havent run dungeons a ton, they dont know that this is an age old debate, and the kick may be a pre emptive measure to stop 10-15 minutes of pointless arguing, (even though the guy may actually stop biotching about whatever after a short discussion)

If people got kicked more they’d start to develop behavior patterns that made them less prone to being kicked.

If someone who’s a jerk gets kicked 24/7 from most parties – chances are he’ll try to reassess the situation and maybe realize he’s doing something wrong.

The bottom line is this.

Players ( both meta and non-meta) have the means to enforce their desired means of play in their parties which they created with that intent in mind.

If conflict arises it is because of their flaw and inability to use these tools quickly and effectively in order to avoid the conflict.

Simply put : If i kick someone who doesn’t correspond to my party requirements before he can even do something wrong and start a conflict than by kicking that person I’ve spared everyone a lot of grief.

Now – if people aren’t willing to do that – then we have what we have today – fighting, name calling, hateful people who keep going at each other’s throats.

I know you dont understand this, but i suppose it comes down to empathy.

This sort of condescension is unnecessary and undermines everything you’ve done up to now. What you dismiss as Harper’s lack of understanding and empathy may also be turned around to be your inability or refusal to understand him or how this game does things(egocentricity).

Or perhaps its just logical. In their minds they see some one get kicked for a disagreement, and they think hmm… if i disagree they might kick me too…

If I formed a zerker party and kicked someone who joined without zerker gear, the other 3 members would be thinking “that’s what you get for not reading/following LFG”.

Since this is the kind of lesson and feeling that people get when they see someone get kicked, then by golly maybe I need to kick more people!

Dave.2536:

phys.7689:

actually, from what i hear, a lot of those encounters actually were initially beat at those levels, without the echo/harder mechanics
first coil requires 70, and at the time, i dont think you could get many level 80 pieces, if any. after beating it you had some level 90 pieces,

Coil up to Turn 4 was beaten fairly quickly, with the biggest obstacle for Turn 4 being figuring out where to position all the members. Coil 5 was beaten as soon as people started getting enough lvl 90 gear from the weekly-gated Mythology tomes with some supplements from Coil 1-4.

On your other point, “someone can beat it with this gear” is not the same as “anyone can beat it with this gear”. I’m sure I could clear CoF with level 75 white gear as well, but that honestly doesn’t mean I should, or that I should have to accept someone who joins my run with that gear.

As far as Garuda HM, I suspect most (may still be an understatement) people who show up there with 48 gear are getting carried by others with much stronger gear. Given that my own group could sell 2, maybe 3, slots for Garuda HM (usually wanted Garuda + Titan), with those 2 tanking whatever material the ground there was made out of, there would be no issue at all coping with people in the party bare running minimum gear.

Twintania wasn’t killed with such an ease. Look up some info on pre-nerf Twisters and the BlueGarter FC. It’s a very entertaining read, you should check it out.

The good thing about PUGging in FFXIV is player-base segregation: DF for casuals and PF for wannabe-hardcores. Truly dedicated players form statics.
Of course, many things depend heavily on your data center’s/world’s average skill level. On the EU data center coil T7 has a success rate of 15-20% in DF from what I’ve seen (same numbers for PF ‘farm’ parties). This is incredibly low given how easy is T7 right now with all the nerfs, echo and overgear.
On Japan servers people regularly pug T13 in PF. The difference is striking as you can see.
Nevertheless, my point was the player-base segregation and the fact the game does provide at least some number of tools to point out the baddie. GW2 has nothing comparable.
AP points are bullkitten gauge. The majority of 20K+ AP players is terribad at efficient dungeoneering because they’ve spent more time grinding the Agent of Entropy and other mindless open-world content than learning how to speedrun.
You can resort to gearchecks but zerk gear is not a fairy sorcery that instantly turns a baddie into a capable and experienced player per se. Even if you ask people to tell how their trait points are allocated, it might be a deception.

At the very end it’s just better to find a group of like-minded individuals.

I suppose I was a bit understating on “enough lvl 90 gear” and did not explicitly give credit for all the time and effort spent on Twintania. My main point was still that the “min gear” requirements in FFXIV were and are a joke in terms of filtering out anything.

Anyways, my point is that playerbase is segregated and has at least some tools to point out the baddie. GW2 has nothing.
AP points are bullkitten gauge for possible dungeon performance. 95% of 20K+ AP guys are bad because they’ve spent more time grinding Agent of Entropy and mindless open-world content.

+1 to this. We wouldn’t even try to check potato metrics like AP (although I can honestly still justify “min 1k” or “min 2k” personally) if there were better and more effective filters.

I’m pretty sure some “leet” people do pugs specifically so they can trash talk other people through the run, with a captive audience who won’t just leave because that would lose their progress so far.

And the blame is not all on the PUG’s side. If you form a PUG to do CM, with the description “zerk 5k AP”, people will expect to run down the alley on the right to break aggro after the skip before Frost, equip a ranged weapon for standing on the beam, and then cross the water. That is “PUG meta”. If you run straight to him without saying anything, and pull a bunch of bandits from up on the ridge along the way, and die alone, that is your fault not theirs.

I had a guy do that yesterday. Then on the second attempt, he ran to a different place from the first (behind the upright in the cave on the left), and laughed at people in chat for not following, and called them “stupid noobs”.

Looking back, what I might have done is arranged a co-ordinated kick for him while I soloed Frost from the beam. But it never occurred to me, I’m not like him.

Oh, and he was a thief with a shortbow but he never once blasted my lava font before a fight. So leet.

But I’ve also played with people much better than me who were great, and sent a thief back for me when I couldn’t solo a skip in TA, and things like that.

I think unpleasant people just happen, speed clear or not, and in a dungeon you are semi-stuck with them. You just have to deal with it however you can — e.g. by posting the story on the forums to get it out of your system.

You shouldnt be pulling bandits to frost anyway. Stay still in stealth until they stop moving. If pugs dont do this (they dont because almost all of them use SR only and never blast smoke fields) then you shouldnt run straight to him. But yeah it is pretty annoying seeing every pug use the safe spot. Its not even the best safe spot lol.

Thankfully ive now completed my CM collection so i no longer have to suffer through terrible pug tactics in such a pug unfriendly dungeon.

Dave.2536:

My main point was still that the “min gear” requirements in FFXIV were and are a joke in terms of filtering out anything.

I’d say ilvl reqs are there to help a new player in getting some insight on which content is harder and which is easier. Otherwise you’d be stuck with a ton of raids, trials and dungeons, bewildered and clueless; where you are able to go and pull your weight.

Dave.2536:

potato metrics

Potato metrics are cancer of PUGs. The sheer number of ‘90K AP+’ listings in the LFG just demonstrates how utterly ignorant people are en masse. ‘LFG 8 heavies’ and ‘stack only’ are close second on the list.

J Eberle.9312:

Last night I said to a friend, potato is coming.

I was right.
Potato happened.

Better beware!

Alot of times you can tell what kind of party your getting in to from the message you see in lfg. I never join any party that demands me to be or have anything specific. Parties asking for berserkers, specific class or amount of ap can go crawl back under the rock they came from. Anyone demanding something from someone else is probably not such a good playeras (s)he himself thinks. Even when I meet the requirements, I’d rather wait for another group then join that one.

J Eberle.9312:

Last night I said to a friend, potato is coming.

I was right.
Potato happened.

Potato is now my iPad’s wallpaper.

We’re all potatoes now.

Potato.

Asaghon.8346:

Alot of times you can tell what kind of party your getting in to from the message you see in lfg. I never join any party that demands me to be or have anything specific. Parties asking for berserkers, specific class or amount of ap can go crawl back under the rock they came from. Anyone demanding something from someone else is probably not such a good playeras (s)he himself thinks. Even when I meet the requirements, I’d rather wait for another group then join that one.

Players like you are why I will continue to have requirements. Thank you for being so easy to filter out!

I’ve legit never seen a pug group blast smoke like ever. Maybe I’m just unlucky but it’s stuff like that which irks me when pugging :S

Dave.2536:

I know you dont understand this, but i suppose it comes down to empathy.

This sort of condescension is unnecessary and undermines everything you’ve done up to now. What you dismiss as Harper’s lack of understanding and empathy may also be turned around to be your inability or refusal to understand him or how this game does things(egocentricity).

Or perhaps its just logical. In their minds they see some one get kicked for a disagreement, and they think hmm… if i disagree they might kick me too…

If I formed a zerker party and kicked someone who joined without zerker gear, the other 3 members would be thinking “that’s what you get for not reading/following LFG”.

Since this is the kind of lesson and feeling that people get when they see someone get kicked, then by golly maybe I need to kick more people!

you are reading too far into it.
I genuinely mean he does not understand it, and im not saying he should, i am saying that i see there is a disconnect because he has a logical argument. But his logical argument does not consider the fact that people are not all logical, and many are acting based on emotion. I feel bad when someone gets kicked, even if the kicking served a purpose. There are a lot of people who are similar.

As to the kicking of someone not following your meta, you arent really getting that the other group of people is different than you. They have a different goal, the people who are new/average and are joining a party that doesnt have a meta requirement arent just joining a party for a different playstyle, they are joining a party for a different atmosphere and feeling.

While a party focused on effeciency, the general feeling of kicking someone may be to maximize effeciency, the people who join an open party, or who may enjoy doing killing crap and taking down big bosses with a bit of a challenge and a bit of a social element are less focused on effeciency.
they are more focused on having a situation of bonding with people through adventure(and winning). If that is your purpose than kicking someone is a strong blow to that.

kicking someone is the end of any social interaction with them, the final blow. And generally seeing that happen doesnt make people feel more social,
unless the guy was such a big jerk that they bond through hatred of him.

Im not saying anyone has to take my viewpoint, im more trying to explain, that some people have these viewpoints, and people who are less focused on the bottomline, are more likely to be these types. And that may be why a lot of them feel alienated in dungeons, or like they shouldnt bother.

Ideally you want to create a system for dungeons that can please both groups, so that more people can enjoy dungeons, and they can make more of them, because so many people want to do them.

split for formatting
And i do think the key is probably to have the game better manage expectations, and create channels that give a soft seperation between the players with different focuses.

perhaps they could have some formalized lfg settings with different rule systems/expectations

Its all about the party mode.

• kicking requires 3/5
• leaving 4 times a day gives a penalty
• cool dude commendations can be handed out on completion, which serves no real purpose other than unlocking some titles related to being an easy going adventurer
• kicking for reasons other than harrassment, afk, offline etc are actionable offenses.
• vote abandon everyone leaves with no leaving penalty

this would be the default mode, and you would have to click a different button to see the other mode.

And thats the bottom line mode

• kicking is instituted by leader and seconded
• leader can be changed by 4/5 vote
• leader changes on DC by vote, or order of joining.
• leaving, no penalty? (not sure if this would be good, im assuming yes)
• Each person can give 1 person master of execution commendation on completion which serves no other purpose other than unlocking some titles related to being an effecient adventurer. (and probably end up as a kind of badge on how good you are in elite circles)
• kicking isnt actionable unless its greifing

This alone would probably create a clear delination of what the purpose is, and what to expect, while you can do this by writing stuff lfg, there is still a lot of confusion, and just a different understanding of purpose. Also these two different groups probably need a different rule set governing them.
newer adventurers, or more relaxed players who dont dungeon a lot, might give dungeons another try if there is a mode dedicated to just going in there and doing a dungeon with some people.