Guild Wars 2

phys.7689:

Zenith.7301:

phys.7689:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

If you join the speed clear group expecting to be asked to alter your build. Its quite simple.

Would be quite easy to add a tooltip description to each category.

There are ( as far as i can see) 4 categories of dungeon running
1) record running
2) speed clearing
3) completion
4) learning the ropes.

Record running NEVER uses pugs. IF you think this category pugs, then you belong in the 4th category.
Category 4 is pretty obvious – go here if you are unsure/new/returning. Alternatively if you want to teach the aforementioned players.

Category 2 and 3 are the ones who need segregating.
Those who want to speed clear.
and those who just want to complete.

Problem lies in: those who want to complete, want to sponge off those who are speed clearing. Those who just want to complete – without coordinating party composition should join category 3.

The problem you are stating is thus: People want to enjoy having a fast run without coordinating or balancing party composition or getting into teamspeak.
This right here is why people keep getting booted from parties.
With the lfg options it will be straightforward:
Join the completion groups, or make your own.

You’re pretty much calling people too stupid to figure this out, which is quite insulting.
There is still going to be trolls.These trolls can join “exp zerk ele only” groups with a level necro in dire gear, nothing we can do about that.

However reasonable players will grasp this quickly and make use of it.
IF we can improve the experience for reasonable players, and help them find like minded players, then the filter would be a success. Any reasonable player should see the speed clear and its tooltip, and expect they may have to change build.
If you get kicked for refusing to do so, it is much more clear you only have yourself to blame. You should have joined or formed a “Completion” group not a “Speed Clear” group.
If someone kicks you from an anything goes group over build or playstyle – yeah, QQ. They were being dirtbags ( which is also borderline LFG abuse and reportable..).
a tooltip for each category with a short description would help considerably.

So again:
Record Run – for breaking completion time records
Speed Clear – for highly coordinated meta runs.
Completion – anything goes.
Learning – for learning or teaching how to do the dungeon.

Added meta to speed clear, as that may help with confusion.
This is no way should replace the text for each LFG.

you could use speed clear if you want in the description, but i am telling you, it will increase your chances of getting legitimate misses. Its not about intelligent or not intelligent, its about how people interpret words and preconceived notions.

Speed clear can mean something to people who are unfamiliar with your terminology.

if you have checkouts counters marked

Speed checkout
normal checkout
special checkout

people will go to the speed checkout when they want to check out fast, not realizing that this checkout may require you to have a cart that automatically tabulates everything in your cart, and accept credit card payments only.

thus making the line very slow, and annoying all people who know what they are supposed to do.

If it was named
CartCreditSpeed checkout people would only go in there if they already knew what the hell CartCreditSpeed is.

they wouldnt assume they knew what it meant.

As to the main problem being people leeching, no thats not really the main problem. Thats actually a very small problem, sure we can try to take care of it, but its actually a very small issue when it comes to the overall health and accessibility of dungeons. I can assure you, the vast majority of people not attempting dungeons, is not because newbs keep joining their speedruns and trying to leech.

Yeah, it’s probably because doing open world farm trains or playing the auction house will net you far more rewards than any speed run will ever get you.

This game doesn’t reward you for actually playing the game or doing challenging content.

The lv50 fractal rewards including rings you don’t need (considering if you have 70+ AR are you already have all accessories+10 agony at least infused on each slot) and the awful gold reward for time spent is testament to a reward scheme that’s perverted.

this is true, but even when these things didnt net you more, or at least people didnt know about it as much, people did these other things because these other things are highly accessible.

the basic dungeon running needs to be more accessible

Fractal 50 is more accessible than regular dungeons?

I think this just about discredits every argument you have.

Zenith.7301:

What part of “replace a warrior with conjure ele if you want” did you not get, or is this the part where you argue for bringing a necromancer or ranger in place for a warrior.

Because if so I’m not going to bother with you. Maybe for explorable dungeons a spotter ranger can ever be more efficient than a awarrior, but in fractal 50 all that efficiency is lost as there are several bosses a ranger can’t melee with consistency or efficiency.

Wth are you talking about. YOU said :

Zenith.7301:

You stack them for the damage

Zenith.7301:

You know, make rangers, necromancers, and mesmers useful to stack just like warriors or thieves instead of just bringing one for some niche utility.

You said that warriors were useful to stack, which isn’t true. Don’t tell me you didn’t said it, its right there.

For the second part. I believe that you think that i’m someone else because I never talk about ranger or necromancer, don’t know where you take that. I couldn’t care less about necromancer. I won’t gonna kick them in a casual run, but I don’t want them either. As for the ranger. I prefer an additional elementalist over a ranger, but If I have to choice between a second Warrior or a Ranger, I’ll take the ranger. Yes most pugs are bad with ranger. They don’t know how to use the sword and can’t manage their pets. But that doesn’t mean that a good ranger can’t do those two thing.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

I think this just about discredits every argument you have.

His other arguments include such slammers as

Yeah, it’s probably because doing open world farm trains … will net you far more rewards than any speed run will ever get you.

so there’s not many arguments that aren’t already discredited

Artemis Thuras.8795:

Then people learn the first time they make a mistake, and go to the right checkout.
In future they go to the right checkout, and they tell their friends which checkout they should go to.

Much the same thing will happen with this filter. People might make a mistake. kitten happens. People learn from their mistakes, or they are too stupid to learn from their mistakes and keep making them until they get suppressed from the lfg.

SpeedClear is not an unclear phrase. It is very commonly used. Naming it something vague, or using some made up term will simply make it harder for people to understand what it is. That is not a good thing.

The fact remains, you are calling people too stupid to figure out which type of group they should join. I find that rude. I’m sure many others will too.

its bad design to create a UI that leads people to the wrong choices, even if they will eventually learn what it means
Trust me, as a designer, its considered a nono

Getting kicked from a speed clear party is not a good experience.

However, for things you dont want people to select unless they are in the know, its fine to make them less accessible.

this is why generally UI will hide the advanced tabs, or have non essential folders default to hidden, or at the very least make it not a base option.

You dont want anyone going into a speedclear party without having prior knowlege as to what speedclearing is all about, correct? therefore it makes sense that the word should not be something they would have a false familiarity with.

i dont care about how smart or how stupid people are, minimizing undesirable outcomes, while giving the same options is a win/win. in terms of UI design.

i dont think anyone finds the name of a category rude, you might find my motivations rude, but my motivations are irrelevant.

heres my goal

people only join speedruns when they know how to speedrun, this basically involves following whatever is meta, probably doing research ahead of time, practicing, and learning all the tricks for a specific dungeon.

people who dont know how to speedrun, and just want to beat a dungeon join the second group

people who want to learn or teach join the last.

This means the first category should not be as accessible as the 2nd, one easy soft method to adjust accessibility is in naming it.

Element Two.7316:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

I think this just about discredits every argument you have.

His other arguments include such slammers as

Yeah, it’s probably because doing open world farm trains … will net you far more rewards than any speed run will ever get you.

so there’s not many arguments that aren’t already discredited

Well he said open world farm and TP. And SW chest farming will get you more gold per hour than dungeon. So you discredit yourself with that statement.

Why are there people here referring to pug groups as “speed clear parties” …?

Purple Miku.7032:

Why are there people here referring to pug groups as “speed clear parties” …?

^^

I sure as hell don’t join groups that say “speed run” with any expectation of it actually using speed run tactics.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

phys.7689:

this is true, but even when these things didnt net you more, or at least people didnt know about it as much, people did these other things because these other things are highly accessible.

the basic dungeon running needs to be more accessible

Fractal 50 is more accessible than regular dungeons?

I think this just about discredits every argument you have.

uh the point of my statement was that even if boss trains gave the same rewards as dungeons, people would not do it because it is less accesible.

the guy as i understand it is saying that fractals/dungeons give crappy rewards, and that makes people not want to do fractals/dungeons.

I think you are too focused on debating me and not focused on the actual problems people are trying to discuss.

*edit, reading my statement again, i probably used too many pronouns without defining them, i think you were assuming different things my pronouns were refering to.

Thaddeus.4891:

Element Two.7316:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

I think this just about discredits every argument you have.

His other arguments include such slammers as

Yeah, it’s probably because doing open world farm trains … will net you far more rewards than any speed run will ever get you.

so there’s not many arguments that aren’t already discredited

Well he said open world farm and TP. And SW chest farming will get you more gold per hour than dungeon. So you discredit yourself with that statement.

Are you sure? Could have sworn a guy posted like 10k champ bags or something like that with an average of 7-10g per hour (he didn’t sell everything he got and was at 7g per hour, probably up to 10 if he had sold all the stuff). Can’t that be beaten with a good group doing a solid tour?

Because sometimes speed clear party has to pug one slot. And i met Lua and co. in such occasions. Honorable mention would be my bro Langrim. Most of the time, speed clear group was formed by invitation/referral between friends of friends though.

From what I understand Honor of the Waves p1 “speed clear” pugs AFK range the troll. So there is a lot of misuse of that term, yes.

hybrid.5027:

From what I understand Honor of the Waves p1 “speed clear” pugs AFK range the troll. So there is a lot of misuse of that term, yes.

which is another reason i would want to give meta speed style of play a different/new name, IF it is supposed to represent a category for people to choose which means they want to play in a time focused meta style of play

perhaps

time meta

I don’t see the point of those categories in the sense that, how do they differ from simply putting in an LFG message?

Extra description for the lfg and it would be as clear as a sunny day. For example: SE p3, speed clear, melee clown car. CM speed clear, stealth skip, etc. The poster is expected to fill the key role tho.

Those p4 speed runs when the entire team ranges melandru for 10 minutes

Time meta is 5 mesmers using time warp right?

5 chronomancers using time warp.

Jerus.4350:

Well he said open world farm and TP. And SW chest farming will get you more gold per hour than dungeon. So you discredit yourself with that statement.

Are you sure? Could have sworn a guy posted like 10k champ bags or something like that with an average of 7-10g per hour (he didn’t sell everything he got and was at 7g per hour, probably up to 10 if he had sold all the stuff). Can’t that be beaten with a good group doing a solid tour?
[/quote]

In dungeon I can do around 7 gold/hour with pugs, 10 gold/hour with my guild group.

In Silverwaste you do around 8 gold for a normal 40 chest run around the map if you sell everything. You can make a standard chest run in around 30 min. You can even go faster. For exemple with my guild we go there with 20-30 ppl so we always have a lot of ppl with shovel and we can do it in 20-25min. So its around 16-24 gold per hour.

Additionally, SW chest give you good useful loot. I usually keep Glob of Ectos, tier 5 and tier 6 and use them instead of selling them. That save me the 15% taxe on the TP. For example, selling an ecto will give you around 28.5 silver, but you will save 32 silver if you keep them (compare to buying them later when you need them). Of course this only affect you if you need those item.

Since I spend most of my gold on skin and legendary, SW chest farm can yield me the equivalent of 20-25 gold per hour (I keep what I need, sell what I don’t need). But it can drop drastically when a chest farm isn’t really good or you spend a lot of time trying to find one, and unless you are a complete leecher you would want to do normal SW map to gain some shovel. I still prefer dungeon run, its more fun for me.

Jerus.4350:

I don’t see the point of those categories in the sense that, how do they differ from simply putting in an LFG message?

1) because categories can set up standardized meanings.
2) people often think their wording is really clear when its not.
perfect example i used to see all the time

p1 exp

what does exp mean?

• explorable
• doing it for exp (gaining levels)
• must be experienced
  • what does experienced even mean? i could have done a dungeon 100 times and not know whatever the meta for speed runs is, i can be highly experienced at dungeon vanquishing, or playing

by setting up a category for intent, with clear delineation, you get people who are more likely to have the same intent with their play.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

Time meta is 5 mesmers using time warp right?

perhaps not.

Evidently we all have different definitions of what speedclearing is.

To me if you’re putting up an LFG ad for the group, it’s pugging and speedclearing is not the same as pugging.

We all agree on one thing at this point: “filter for intent”.

Low-stress individuals don’t want the “time attack” or “speed clear” or whatever it ends up getting called stress, but the speed clear crew doesn’t want the super casuals with poor gear/builds/attitudes for speed.

Let’s recap what we have so far:

Filter System

• Class Filters: Only allows X class(es) to join the party
• Level Filter: Only allow >X leveled characters to join the party

These have received unanimous support.

• Purpose Filter: “Speed Clear”, “Completion”, “Learning”

There has been some back-and-forth about this, but mostly on the wording. Everyone agrees on the purpose of this.

I think the wording of “speed clear” is a little nebulous, but I’m hinging the usage of this wording on the idea that we can have hover-over tooltips which clearly indicate that speed clear is intended for people using coordinated builds to optimize for fastest clear times of the dungeon, and that high-level coordination and teamplay with optimal builds and gear are required.

Are there any other kind of LFG filters that we think are particularly valuable?

Agony resistance suitable for the level?

phys.7689:

Jerus.4350:

I don’t see the point of those categories in the sense that, how do they differ from simply putting in an LFG message?

1) because categories can set up standardized meanings.
2) people often think their wording is really clear when its not.
perfect example i used to see all the time

p1 exp

what does exp mean?

• explorable
• doing it for exp (gaining levels)
• must be experienced
  • what does experienced even mean? i could have done a dungeon 100 times and not know whatever the meta for speed runs is, i can be highly experienced at dungeon vanquishing, or playing

by setting up a category for intent, with clear delineation, you get people who are more likely to have the same intent with their play.

I agree with the exp thing, always thought it was the one point of confusion. “no necro” and necros join… “80” and lvl 50’s join. I mean c’mon. Not all the normal things are confusing.

I seriously doubt these categories will do anything. There’s nothing to stop a player from joining the “speed clear” just like there isn’t now. They see that and go “yeah, I ant to go fast, and these guys are probably pretty good and can carry me” just like they do with the “80 exp zerk” groups now. I can’t help but feel it’s a futile effort that will do nothing but waste developer time. If they want to undertake it with some sense of hope that they’ll be doing something positive, sure, i don’t think it’ll hurt, but I still see it as a waste of time.

Jerus.4350:

There’s nothing to stop a player from joining the “speed clear” just like there isn’t now. They see that and go “yeah, I ant to go fast, and these guys are probably pretty good and can carry me” just like they do with the “80 exp zerk” groups now.

This is exactly why I prefer objective filters that totally prevent people from joining a group they don’t meet the conditions for. I do think having one subjective filter for intent is good, but I think keeping the rest objective would be more beneficial.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

Agony resistance suitable for the level?

This is a pretty good idea.

Do you think you could actually get a zerker only filter to fly?

What would the limitations be? Would it be stat based to include builds also? What about build variation? What about if someone has say a knights greatsword that they got in an ascended box and set it up for Arah with an undead sigil making it better (?) than their exotic weapon that has force/night?

See my fear is that any objective thing would have either loopholes to get around it, or be so strict that it’d eliminate people running completel legitimate stuff but isn’t “perfect”.

If it’s based on armor type will assassin be allowed in “zerk” parties?
Will and AH guard on staff that simply has zerk gear be allowed?

The details of such a system worry me, implemented poorly and it could simply be a nightmare to play with.

And the whole “speed run”“lets get it done” “learning” idea, i simply don’t see the benefit of it over the current notes other than clarifying what “exp” means, which we could all simply stop being lazy and type “experienced”. In the end it’s all subjective still though.

The filter should affect the party creator too by the way, if anet ever gets around implementing one. I’m done joining parties that say “zerker only”, just to find a bunch of soldier and knight wearing zero dpsers being the ones who made the lfg. I’d rather join more honest random pugs than that. You shouldn’t be able to build a filter around zerk if you’re not wearing it yourself.

Jerus.4350:

Do you think you could actually get a zerker only filter to fly?

What would the limitations be? Would it be stat based to include builds also? What about build variation? What about if someone has say a knights greatsword that they got in an ascended box and set it up for Arah with an undead sigil making it better (?) than their exotic weapon that has force/night?

See my fear is that any objective thing would have either loopholes to get around it, or be so strict that it’d eliminate people running completel legitimate stuff but isn’t “perfect”.

If it’s based on armor type will assassin be allowed in “zerk” parties?
Will and AH guard on staff that simply has zerk gear be allowed?

The details of such a system worry me, implemented poorly and it could simply be a nightmare to play with.

And the whole “speed run”“lets get it done” “learning” idea, i simply don’t see the benefit of it over the current notes other than clarifying what “exp” means, which we could all simply stop being lazy and type “experienced”. In the end it’s all subjective still though.

the objective filters hes currently talking about is
class
level

the non objective filters work all the time. its not just about filtering people its also about setting player expectations.

lets say you make a game mode called
YOU WILL DIE IN ONE HIT mode
people will not be surprised if they die in one hit.
they are less likely complain that you will die in one hit mode is too hard.

speedrun does not properly set player expectations, neither does experienced.
the truth is speedrunning is practically a totally different mode of play, the focus is to kill as few enemies as possible.

Back in the days PSO used to have two ways to get an S rank in a special mission, kill everything or kill some minimal number of enemies, like 9 enemies in the whole instance .

The game play of doing it in the minimal was totally different. People going for 9 enemy kills knew they had to know exactly which 9 enemies to kill, they might have to be aware of hidden paths, fight bosses with single targets, and kill specific monsters within a wave to open doors.
Speedrunning is similar to this in its differences in gameplay, its not simply just doing the same thing faster, and a lot of people dont really get that.

an example of last nights arah run:
We advertised " TS3 – zerk ele".
We had about 8 people join before we got an ele.
Which means constantly relisting the LFG.
We also got abuse- such as " I’m reporting you for kicking me at the end" ( the guy hadn’t even set foot in the instance). Amongst others.
The problem is the LFG suppression then kicks in if we go through 2-3 people in the span of a couple of minutes. Not to mention distracts us while 3-4 manning a dungeon.
We ended up 4 manning p2 and sold the 5th slot at brie because the LFG broke on us and we couldn’t relist without disbanding the party and reforming for a significant time.
This is why we’re asking for class filters – we can’t be the only ones suffering from this, and both sides suffer.

Similar situation for things like level of course.
Purpose Filter:
“Speed Clear” Parties who want to coordinate and complete quicky.*
“Completion” Parties who want to take it slow and steady.**
“Learning” Parties wanting to learn or teach how to complete a run.

*Not sure on exact wording but something meaning coordinated, with flexibility to fit team composition. Willing to use combos to maximum effect. For me Speed Clear embodies the concept of what a party might be aiming for ( if not achieving it perfectly).
At the very least, those who want to get faster runs will be more likely to want to listen to build and gear advice. Getting the right mentality makes this type of run much smoother and less stressful.

• or not share what build they are running.

Intention filtering may not stop the trolls, but it’ll help the innocent players who may need a bit more guidance on the type of party to join. Worst case – trolls do what they do now. Best case – helps out everyone else.

Gear filtering could be a problem, but yes, if implemented, should be required by the creator also.

Rising Dusk.2408:

This is exactly why I prefer objective filters that totally prevent people from joining a group they don’t meet the conditions for.

I would prefer filters which prevent people from joining the dungeon. Just today I had to switch chars for 3 out of 4 fractal runs to be on a desired class. Because the LA loading screen takes to long i did not want to switch first join after, lost quite a lot of chances for groups that way before.
Of course some auto kick after 1 minute or so with auto repost lfg should be added, to prevent people not leaving once they cant get into the dungeon.

Another possibility would be for the filters to take into consideration all chars on an account, so if it states “ele 80” and i’m on my engi i can join. The group would know I have the appropiate class with the appropiate level just that I’m not on it at the moment.

Jerus.4350:

Do you think you could actually get a zerker only filter to fly?

All of the questions you asked are exactly why I think a gear-checking filter wouldn’t work. The biggest concern is that people could join a group with one set of gear on and then switch out to whatever they wanted to actually run without anyone else knowing.

The trick is finding ways we can kitten the experience of a player. All measures we have now are fairly poor at this, including AP and /age, but at least that’s something.

Bohantopa.5729:

I would prefer filters which prevent people from joining the dungeon. Just today I had to switch chars for 3 out of 4 fractal runs to be on a desired class. Because the LA loading screen takes to long i did not want to switch first join after, lost quite a lot of chances for groups that way before.
Of course some auto kick after 1 minute or so with auto repost lfg should be added, to prevent people not leaving once they cant get into the dungeon.

Another possibility would be for the filters to take into consideration all chars on an account, so if it states “ele 80” and i’m on my engi i can join. The group would know I have the appropiate class with the appropiate level just that I’m not on it at the moment.

Hrm.. These are very good points. Using my gut as a software engineer, I think the first thing you mention (them not being able to enter the dungeon) might not be feasible, but the second option is valid. Having it consider account-wide filters would be something to consider.

The game already tracks dungeon visits with Hobby dungeon explorer shouldn’t be that hard to tie that metric into a filter system.
Beginner = <50
Intermediate = >150
Experienced = >300
The only problem with doing it this way: you don’t know if the person has any experience running the profession he joins your group with.

I am <50 on my hobby dungeon explorer because I was lazy and just never did SEp2 till about a month or so ago.

If hobby dungeon didn’t require dungeon master I’m sure I’d be in the 300+ range.

And exactly Rising, but I don’t see much benefit to things like just making sure levels are checked or profession. Seems like it’d likely be quite the undertaking to change the system just for those minor benefits.

A year or so ago I tried joining an explorable AC run. On the first boss everyone insisted that we stack up in a tiny corner, bring the boss to the corner, stand on the boss, and kill it.

It was a disaster. They tried, again and again, this failing method, instead of just fighting the boss out in the big open room, which seems to be what was originally intended by the developer. Eventually people started getting angry at one another. The group leader and some guy who had a lot of experience started yelling at each other.

I just left the group. No time for that noise. I’ve never done another dungeon in this game. Worst instanced dungeon experience I have ever had in an MMO. GW2 dungeons are a joke. The fact that people can finish them in 5 minutes by skipping trash, doing weird stuff like “running up against a corner”, de-aggroing enemies, and just stacking areas and burning down speak volumes about how lazy the dungeon designers were.

People can poo on Blizzard all they want, and I don’t like them much myself, but dungeons in this game make me consider returning to WoW… which is probably another reason I stay out of them.

Milkduds.7109:

They tried, again and again, this failing method, instead of just fighting the boss out in the big open room, which seems to be what was originally intended by the developer.

kekkity kekkity kek

Milkduds.7109:

A year or so ago I tried joining an explorable AC run. On the first boss everyone insisted that we stack up in a tiny corner, bring the boss to the corner, stand on the boss, and kill it.

It was a disaster. They tried, again and again, this failing method, instead of just fighting the boss out in the big open room, which seems to be what was originally intended by the developer. Eventually people started getting angry at one another. The group leader and some guy who had a lot of experience started yelling at each other.

I just left the group. No time for that noise. I’ve never done another dungeon in this game. Worst instanced dungeon experience I have ever had in an MMO. GW2 dungeons are a joke. The fact that people can finish them in 5 minutes by skipping trash, doing weird stuff like “running up against a corner”, de-aggroing enemies, and just stacking areas and burning down speak volumes about how lazy the dungeon designers were.

People can poo on Blizzard all they want, and I don’t like them much myself, but dungeons in this game make me consider returning to WoW… which is probably another reason I stay out of them.

That’s solo… your group just sucked. And you don’t need corners, people are just dumb and see stuff in videos and copy it without thinking much about why. People used that corner for FGS, when that was nerfed it stopped being worthwhile.

Jerus.4350:

And exactly Rising, but I don’t see much benefit to things like just making sure levels are checked or profession. Seems like it’d likely be quite the undertaking to change the system just for those minor benefits.

The benefit might be small, but it could also be fairly useful. We also don’t know how difficult it is to implement, nor should it be a big concern for us. That enough people are talking about it, though, means that the developers will want to hear about it. If we have a good idea of what we want when I talk to them about it, that’s all the better.

I personally dont really care for filters, the description should be good enough. Unfortunately people ignore it or dont read it (blame people). Im more concerned about LFG griefing than anything. I admit check boxes for certain filters could be nice. So opt in checkboxes for experienced players. This way players that dont read wouldnt notice the checkbox and they would only see the regular entries by default.

Id prefer to see better group security and management before we tackle filters. But im certainly not against LFG improvements.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Jerus.4350:

And exactly Rising, but I don’t see much benefit to things like just making sure levels are checked or profession. Seems like it’d likely be quite the undertaking to change the system just for those minor benefits.

The benefit might be small, but it could also be fairly useful. We also don’t know how difficult it is to implement, nor should it be a big concern for us. That enough people are talking about it, though, means that the developers will want to hear about it. If we have a good idea of what we want when I talk to them about it, that’s all the better.

Ehh, just consider me a pessimist who fears that if they touch it they’ll make it worse rather than better and at best it’ll be no different but a lot of time wasted.

I am with spoj on this though.

At the very least I’ve always felt that they should change the LFG join group button to be the same functionality as /join, where the group has to accept you in, a lot of screening could be done with that alone.

Jerus.4350:

Milkduds.7109:

A year or so ago I tried joining an explorable AC run. On the first boss everyone insisted that we stack up in a tiny corner, bring the boss to the corner, stand on the boss, and kill it.

It was a disaster. They tried, again and again, this failing method, instead of just fighting the boss out in the big open room, which seems to be what was originally intended by the developer. Eventually people started getting angry at one another. The group leader and some guy who had a lot of experience started yelling at each other.

I just left the group. No time for that noise. I’ve never done another dungeon in this game. Worst instanced dungeon experience I have ever had in an MMO. GW2 dungeons are a joke. The fact that people can finish them in 5 minutes by skipping trash, doing weird stuff like “running up against a corner”, de-aggroing enemies, and just stacking areas and burning down speak volumes about how lazy the dungeon designers were.

People can poo on Blizzard all they want, and I don’t like them much myself, but dungeons in this game make me consider returning to WoW… which is probably another reason I stay out of them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BF0ttD5lGkY

That’s solo… your group just sucked. And you don’t need corners, people are just dumb and see stuff in videos and copy it without thinking much about why. People used that corner for FGS, when that was nerfed it stopped being worthwhile.

Yeah, his group sucked, it’s a PuG.

But you don’t think that linking that video shows just how poorly designed PvE is where someone can cheese conjures on large hit boxes and the power of might stacking to down a boss in a few seconds?

How can you entice people that come from competitive raid content in other MMO’s to look positively on this? The video is not good commentary, if a player can solo it in such a fashion under that time, it’s even worse as a group.

I’ve had Kohler died before he can even pull off an attack or pull people. Something is wrong when you can stack damage modifiers to such a degree that you can simply eliminate several or most of the mechanics off a boss.

It’s really boring. Everytime I join an arah run I spend more time stealthed than I spend time outside it.

We’ll see what HoT brings but I hope it’s not bosses that die in under 1-2 minutes to focus fire.

I used to do raids in other games. I had similar videos of us just laying waste to things like they were nothing. Playing well and making things look easy can be decieving. Couple that with the fact that we’re talking the first boss in the first dungeon that was significantly nerfed last April, well… yeah…

If you’re blowing up Arah bosses with as much ease, bravo, you’re better than the vast majority of groups out there.

As far as dying in under 1-2 mins, I personally don’t miss the half hour + fights of other MMOs I played. I think 3-5 mins is about perfect personally. Which is probably what a boss fight takes most pug or inexperienced groups in any of the higher level content in this game, play things perfect and you can do better, but isn’t that how it’s supposed to be? Designed around mediocre play, allow exceptional play? I mean that’s pretty standard game design from what I’ve seen of every MMO, only rarely do you see stuff where devs say “well we don’t think they can beat it” but then of course people do I’ve been there.

Purple Miku.7032:

Milkduds.7109:

They tried, again and again, this failing method, instead of just fighting the boss out in the big open room, which seems to be what was originally intended by the developer.

kekkity kekkity kek

bur

Jerus.4350:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BF0ttD5lGkY

That’s solo…

How do I get that in slow motion?

Morte.5916:

How do I get that in slow motion?

Click on the gear symbol (Settings) and change the speed from “Normal” to either 0.25 or 0.5.

Youtube offers the ability to watch it in 25%, 50%, 150% and 200% speeds.

I’ve never had a problem pugging in this game. Yeah sure, there have been some unpleasant experiences but nothing that doesn’t happen in other MMOs. You’re doing a dungeon with 4 other randoms after all, of course you’re gonna run in your fair share of jerks.

If I can give one advice to people. The devs have given us a pug system where you can actually type specifically what you want instead of just randomly putting people together like in other games. Learning to read will vastly increase the amount of good experiences you’ll have using the tool.

cranos.5913:

Learning to read will vastly increase the amount of good experiences you’ll have using the tool.

This made me LOL, if only people would read. We’d be so lucky

They do read. “lvl 80 exp zerker meta builds” = “free carry come leech”

Dave.2536:

They do read. “lvl 80 exp zerker meta builds” = “free carry come leech”

Then their free leech is taken away by getting kicked, they come to the forums to complain about the toxic environment because they’re not pulling their weight and here we are…

Jerus.4350:

I used to do raids in other games. I had similar videos of us just laying waste to things like they were nothing. Playing well and making things look easy can be decieving. Couple that with the fact that we’re talking the first boss in the first dungeon that was significantly nerfed last April, well… yeah…

If you’re blowing up Arah bosses with as much ease, bravo, you’re better than the vast majority of groups out there.

As far as dying in under 1-2 mins, I personally don’t miss the half hour + fights of other MMOs I played. I think 3-5 mins is about perfect personally. Which is probably what a boss fight takes most pug or inexperienced groups in any of the higher level content in this game, play things perfect and you can do better, but isn’t that how it’s supposed to be? Designed around mediocre play, allow exceptional play? I mean that’s pretty standard game design from what I’ve seen of every MMO, only rarely do you see stuff where devs say “well we don’t think they can beat it” but then of course people do I’ve been there.

You don’t lay waste to mythic level bosses in less than 2 minutes, and you certainly don’t get to skip Imperator Margok or Blackhand’s mechanics however much you are geared out. People still need to do the mechanics. You still gotta do your force novas, people still need to lay down traps properly, and they still need to spread out and drop stacks and mines properly. Black Furnace doesn’t allow you to just ignore killing the adds and taking bombs to the furnance and luring the elementals to take off the shield off primal elementalists just because you brought enough damage you can mongoloid zerg a boss down.

In this game the damage output is so high that you only worry about a few dodges if any assuming your guardians or thieves aren’t making the group take virtually no damage.

So I learned to perfectly dodge a few tells through repetition of content and a boss dies in 2 minutes or less. I don’t feel good about that. There’s no attrition whatsoever.

I hope this game has more encounter mechanics that force group members to do differing tasks during an encounter other than stacking and putting up reflection field/aegis and the odd dodge, while zerging every content down with OP boon stacking (they’ve been getting nerfed for a reason, might stacks are broken and so are conjures on large hit box mobs).

I see the glitching going on in this game and it’s sickening. From abusing boss hitboxes to taking advantage of AI deficiencies and stealth spam takes the cake. They might as well take out most of a dungeon and advertise to people “Join this dungeon, get your 3g in 10 minutes or less and get out. You’re just here for the gold anyway as it’s clear that you try to avoid as much of the content as possible, so just come into the instance and get your gold without the hassle of playing the game”

I was honestly excited about the HoT talks and trailers, maybe this awful pve content gets a fix to encourage more interesting encounters.

Zenith.7301:

Yeah, his group sucked, it’s a PuG.

But you don’t think that linking that video shows just how poorly designed PvE is where someone can cheese conjures on large hit boxes and the power of might stacking to down a boss in a few seconds?

If you think its cheesy try to do the same. Stacking 25 might on yourself on an elementalist is hard in one shot and need practice. You can do it more easily in two shot, but either you don’t have enough time to kill the boss with all your might or you need Rune of strength. He had to change trait quickly, then had a good rotation. He also dodge Icebow to concentrate the damage on a line. Something that isn’t easy in a combat situation.

FGS back in the days. That was cheesy. You simply had to pull the boss in a corner and press 3 skills, no practice, no preparation, no skills.

Zenith.7301:

You don’t lay waste to mythic level bosses in less than 2 minutes, and you certainly don’t get to skip Imperator Margok or Blackhand’s mechanics however much you are geared out.

And you don’t lay waste to Fractal 50 Bosses or most of the higher level World bosses. AC is a low level dungeon with scaling issues. Every mobs is super easy to kill in there. You can’t say that its a broken PvE because 1 low level boss is super easy to kill and then compare that to the hardest boss to kill in WoW. That’s just a stupid comparison.