Guild Wars 2

DogCompany.1062:

Why are the Dungeons so simple to the point where no defense is necessary to complete? Why is it that one profession, or one build, complete Dungeons almost effortlessly?

Have you done dungeons? Defense is absolutely necessary. However, there are multiple kinds of defense. For example dodging comes built into every class, and is 100% damage reduction. Also many professions have the ability to negate or even reflect projectiles. Many classes come with built in evades other than dodges or blocks, all of which is 100% damage reduction. Defense from gear is probably the worst kind of defense because it’s only 10-15% DR which in the harder dungeons ends up not making a difference.

Another point – you may have heard the term “the best defense is a good offense”. Well, if you’re killing mobs in 10 seconds, you don’t need to worry as much about defense as you would in a group that takes 30 seconds.

Finally, it’s not any kind of secret why zerker is the best. The holy trinity in dungeons for MMOs has ALWAYS been tank, healer, dps. When arenanet removed tank & healer, guess what was left? Zerker gear is the best dps gear for almost every class, thus the most popular.

Inimicus.7162:

Dungeons may never get worked on, shields may never have their value increased, but the one they have done to screw with “all zerk all the time zerk or gtfo zerk zerk zerk” heads is in the living story… the tower of nightmares? and even LA right now, you are punished for zerk/zerging, and I like this.

I have to disagree.
Neither the Tower of Nightmares nor Escape from L.A. punished berserker gear. Enemies were slightly smarter and running on full zerker was more challenging than usual, but still absolutely viable and the fastest one on dealing with every fight.

Those releases just encouraged (loot wise) zerging, which is fairly incompatible with berserker gear atm and which regularly receives as many complaints as berserker meta does.
If you would try to climb the tower (killing enemies instead of skipping everything) / save as many citizens as possible either solo or with a quite small group, berserker would still be the most efficient possible way to do it.

wolfpaq.7354:

DogCompany.1062:

Why are the Dungeons so simple to the point where no defense is necessary to complete? Why is it that one profession, or one build, complete Dungeons almost effortlessly?

Have you done dungeons? Defense is absolutely necessary. However, there are multiple kinds of defense. For example dodging comes built into every class, and is 100% damage reduction. Also many professions have the ability to negate or even reflect projectiles. Many classes come with built in evades other than dodges or blocks, all of which is 100% damage reduction. Defense from gear is probably the worst kind of defense because it’s only 10-15% DR which in the harder dungeons ends up not making a difference.

Another point – you may have heard the term “the best defense is a good offense”. Well, if you’re killing mobs in 10 seconds, you don’t need to worry as much about defense as you would in a group that takes 30 seconds.

Finally, it’s not any kind of secret why zerker is the best. The holy trinity in dungeons for MMOs has ALWAYS been tank, healer, dps. When arenanet removed tank & healer, guess what was left? Zerker gear is the best dps gear for almost every class, thus the most popular.

They removed the “tank” and made the “healer” into a “protector” via said boon, or aegis, aoe reflects, etc etc… but yes, you are on point, even if i read a bit of animosity towards the differing opinion.

Berserker gear is best, and even with the incoming alteration to crit damage is guaranteed now to be the best for dungeons especially. That said, the animosity for and against is wasted, because I’d rather see someone wear soldier/cleric into a dungeon run with me if means I don’t have to half dps totally every few seconds to rez them when they miss the occasional mechanic… some fights are better at this allowance than others, but instead of just putting them down, point out that the toughness on their “survival” gear is known to bring more attention to them… which in turn means they take more damage negating the reason they chose it in a rather cruel twist of fate.

Further actually, when one day they merge pvp and pve armors: Wouldn’t it be fun if they stripped ALL stats from pve armors and made all just like spvp? Bare defense and the only stats you get are off runes, maybe a little something from trinkets? That would make it all fair across the board. (and more like GW1 coincidentally)

Dual.8953:

I can think of 3 solutions off the top of my head.
1) Increase the difficulty of dungeons to the point that full Zerker parties won’t work.
2) Add challenges that target specific skillsets
3) Make the dungeon rewards undesirable to farmers

I appreciate your input especially presenting a list of solutions. I would definitely agree with you towards reconfiguring Dungeons so that Berserker-Type builds would be more vulnerable to attacks, for example, change the damage output of the Champions within the Dungeons.

This also, adds an additional question: If they were to change the stats of, say, Tank-Type classes, and how they encounter Champions, would that negatively impact WvW?

Vargamonth.2047:

Inimicus.7162:

Dungeons may never get worked on, shields may never have their value increased, but the one they have done to screw with “all zerk all the time zerk or gtfo zerk zerk zerk” heads is in the living story… the tower of nightmares? and even LA right now, you are punished for zerk/zerging, and I like this.

I have to disagree.
Neither the Tower of Nightmares nor Escape from L.A. punished berserker gear. Enemies were slightly smarter and running on full zerker was more challenging than usual, but still absolutely viable and the fastest one on dealing with every fight.

Those releases just encouraged (loot wise) zerging, which is fairly incompatible with berserker gear atm and which regularly receives as many complaints as berserker meta does.
If you would try to climb the tower (killing enemies instead of skipping everything) / save as many citizens as possible either solo or with a quite small group, berserker would still be the most efficient possible way to do it.

Making it harder is punishment. Tower of nightmares and it’s conditions, LA and it’s miasma in some limited ways. They can’t “make it go away” but they can make it so that you actually have to be really good to get away with it… and while they could have gone a lot farther with it in both, they would have also pushed away many, many people who wouldn’t have been able to cope no matter what gear they had on.

The super hard scaling to “elite” mobs also is both punishment for zerkers and zerglings… They are champion mobs with no loot, depriving zerglings of their precious easy loot, and forcing zerkers to show a little skill in handling a mob that FORCES them to survive for longer than it takes a warrior’s HB to cast all the way. Also to a lesser degree because it’s easy to carry those idiots… the citizen rescue in LA is a nice attempt to bring everyone together for a common goal, but also try to break the zerg apart some. Yes, the zerglings still get the lion’s share of the loot, and I think that needs to be addressed, but the failures in many of these living story things really do show an evolution in Anet’s thinking towards how to make something “big” without making a zergling infestation. Even though, I think their success has been somewhat limited, and the story a bit boring, I am impressed at the attempts. They can not redesign the rest of the system at this point, but they can change how they make their content to reduce or punish those don’t adapt. In this respect, they actually ARE really being innovative. And for all my other gripes, I do applaud this.

Dee Jay.2460:

Hardcore dungeon runners typically run full Beserker Guardians as well, with the odd support skill and Aegis to give a little wiggle-room for errors to occur.

And Berserker Guardians deal some impressive damage and Binding Blade is great for bunching up mobs and cleaving them down.

There is no such thing as a hardcore gamer in gw2, there are only casuals.

Dual.8953:

1) Glass Cannoning is supposed to be high risk, high reward. The fact that most parties run full zerk, to the point that you’re seen as a burden for not following suit, suggests that the risk factor isn’t there. Increasing the difficulty will do wonders, it’ll increase the importance of support, in increasing the difficulty they could rework control’s effectiveness, and if they make it harder to melee burn mobs down, ranged will become valuable again. To make things more clear, Zerker parties would still be possible, it’d just require much more skill to run one without wiping. Ideally most parties will consist of 1-3 dps and 2 other specs to support them

That’s the current situation, players support each others. There is no dedicated support aka healing bot you seem to want.

Nick.6972:

I don’t like running Zerker gear, but I want to finish the tediously long boss fights as fast as it’s possible.

This is the mind set that, I believe, ruins MMO games. Personally, it reduces the challenge and depletes the value of the Gear/Item. I understand most people do not want to spend hours in a Dungeon trying to figure out the puzzle in order to move on to the next stage, but I would have to argue that the simplicity of the Dungeons, through strict profession choices, may have a negative affect on the game itself.

To add on the subject, would it be better to remove Gear/Items that are not used by the Guild Wars 2 Community, since Berserker-Type classes are a “must have” in the current culture of the game?

Bread.7516:

Why people find it boring is not really due to the gear/build sets, it’s more of the boss encounters and AI lacking variety in their movesets and behaviour.

I appreciate your comment and this comment definitely stands out. My question for you would be; would you appreciate/enjoy a randomization of the Champions/Bosses forms of attacks instead of a continuous cycle of repetitive movements?

Harper.4173:

Dungeons were designed to be medium-hard to complete ON release. Not 1+ years after.
You want harder content? Go do fractals at level 30+.

Dungeons are designed in such a way that NO MATTER HOW BAD YOU ARE you will still complete it if you keep trying. That means that a VERY GOOD GROUP will breeze right on through. Regardless of gear – but zerker will make it the fastest.

I am familiar with high level Fractals and my experience tells me that Fractals should be the standard of any Dungeon. In short, shouldn’t Arena Net consider creating, or reconfiguring, more difficult Dungeons in order to avoid such repetitions?

Lankybird.8149:

as mentioned, Guild Wars entire combat system was built around NOT having a tank healer dps… or what is known as the holy trinity. And in league of legends you need a a good jungler (Normally tanky dps), a good AD (Attack DMG) carry, and rest is whatever. You do not in anyway need a healer aka or support. Sonna is nice to have though only one team gets her. anyway now that we derailed this…. yeah totally different games.

This is what I consider unfortunate because there is no use, for example, Cleric’s Gear. Since it can maximize a professions Healing abilities, it is the most rejected stats in the Guild Wars 2 Community, do to lack of Damage. My question for you is; would it be better to remove such a Gear, such as Cleric’s, from the game?

When you focus combat around the push of one button to negate any incoming damage, you cannot really tease out nuances of gear. It doesn’t matter what stats a character has if he or she can dodge through the appropriate attacks and hit their own heal if needed. Thus doing the most amount of damage in the shortest amount of time is the preferred aim.

If conditions worked better, they might be what folks ran.

When learning an encounter, it sure might be helpful to have soldier’s stats or someone with more healing power and/or water fields. But honestly dungeon content seems (I must admit here that I have several explorable paths yet to do) more about awareness of the boss’s skills and proper management of dodges. Gear stat choices play no role on whether or not a dodge works.

If encounters are made that do focus on gear, then the game becomes unfair, in my opinion. While players may prefer beserker stats on characters to kill enemies more quickly, any stat combination can manage the dodging and fight in the current setup. If an encounter is made to, say, constantly apply pressure in a way to encourage more vitality or healing or something to the extent that it is actually impossible to complete with beserker-slotted characters, then I would argue the design is flawed in a game that promises anyone can use whatever stats they like to build their character however they can.

Note the difference -- currently, the only exclusion folks face is from fellow players forming parties. Unfortunate, but not inherent to the game when it happens. If dodging and healing skills alone aren’t sufficient to pass an encounter, where a certain gear type is needed, then the game would be excluding a specific build. That would be a poor design choice for a game like this.

It would be much lessened, however, if we could select stats on our gear instead of having the carry several different sets. Maybe a GW1-inspired system of prefix/suffix components, and as long as we build them once and apply it to the gear those selections would remain available. But this is an off-topic idea.

Caedmon.6798:

Dungeons havent become simple,people have been playing them for over a year and know them inside out.Why should they bother with any other build than berserk ? They know what to expect,they know what to do,they know how the kill the bosses and complete the paths without being wiped.Why pick any other stat if you Know how to complete the dungeons without wiping ? If you can shave off 10m of your run,why hold back.

This is a common response from those who have posted recently on this subject. Two questions:

Would it be better for Arena Net to design more Berserker-Type classes? or,
Would it benefit Arena Net to design Dungeons where it will challenge more Berserker-Type play-styles?

Lastly, I support the idea that Champions/Bosses have a randomization of combat orders so that the Opponents are not easily predictable.

wolfpaq.7354:

Another point – you may have heard the term “the best defense is a good offense”. Well, if you’re killing mobs in 10 seconds, you don’t need to worry as much about defense as you would in a group that takes 30 seconds.

To answer your question, yes, I participate in Dungeons and that’s the reason I brought this topic to fruition. Regarding the comment shown, I believe this is exactly why Dungeons need to be altered.

My question for you is; should Arena Net remove the ability, Dodge, from every class in order to require more Healer/Tank classes and establish parties of different professions instead of one profession to “rule them all?”

I don’t know. I see parties with multiple professions all the time. I don’t think people run the 4 warrior 1 Mesmer thing anymore (as an example).

Anyway let’s not get rid of dodge, let’s not require healers and tanks. The loot system, for one, would keep people from running a healer and gameplay would not be even remotely varied in a trinity game.

synk.6907:

When you focus combat around the push of one button to negate any incoming damage, you cannot really tease out nuances of gear. It doesn’t matter what stats a character has if he or she can dodge through the appropriate attacks and hit their own heal if needed. Thus doing the most amount of damage in the shortest amount of time is the preferred aim.

I’ve noticed a lot of people on this post and the ability, Dodge, was mentioned several times throughout this post. I asked a person regarding Dodge and that is this; would removing the ability, Dodge, force players to encourage or reconsider a party of Berserker-Type professions before entering a Dungeon? or,

Would it be acceptable to Dodge an opponents attack, but only take a, for example, 10% Damage from the opponents attack instead of 100% Damage avoidance?

Well, let me ask you this, if you dodge a punch, and it doesn’t hit you in real life, does it still hurt? (Do you feel 10% of that force?)

first everyone was whining cos of usage of explorer stats in dungeons, now we get whine cos of to berserker stats? o0

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Anyway let’s not get rid of dodge, let’s not require healers and tanks. The loot system, for one, would keep people from running a healer and gameplay would not be even remotely varied in a trinity game.

I appreciate your response and would definitely like your input regarding the Dodge ability. I would most like to hear from you regarding this question.

What would your reaction be if, Dodge, only reduced the Damage taken from opponents instead of a 100% Damage avoidance?

DogCompany.1062:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Anyway let’s not get rid of dodge, let’s not require healers and tanks. The loot system, for one, would keep people from running a healer and gameplay would not be even remotely varied in a trinity game.

I appreciate your response and would definitely like your input regarding the Dodge ability. I would most like to hear from you regarding this question.

What would your reaction be if, Dodge, only reduced the Damage taken from opponents instead of a 100% Damage avoidance?

I’ll respond with my earlier post:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Well, let me ask you this, if you dodge a punch, and it doesn’t hit you in real life, does it still hurt? (Do you feel 10% of that force?)

That’s how I feel on the matter. I see no reason why skill and good timing shouldn’t keep you safe.

This just in from general discussion: “I was once in a dungeon with some warrior zerkers. They berated me the whole time, they lay on the ground dead, while I killed the boss solo. It was amazing that I could not convince them that my build was superior to theirs, as 4 of them could not even dent the boss, yet I was able to kill him solo.
The zerker crowd bases their stand on the fact that they circumvent the game by stacking damage to avoid playing the game, no skill involved in that.
As a solo ranger, I would say that I showed them what skill is.”

Bearbow kiting is true skill, guys.

Removing dodge would cripple GW2’s intended style of combat.

Altering dodge to still cause damage, albeit a small amount, seems like a slap on the wrist of players who’ve learned a fight’s mechanics and know the attacks. Moreso considering that we all have endurance and a limited ability to dodge in succession.

The game tossed out the idea of tanks and healers, so everyone has to be able to save themselves. To punish players for focusing on that seems wrong and counter-intuitive to me.

edit: I’ll re-state again that I don’t think folks with other gear selections are playing wrong, and you have a lot more room for error and to take hits gearing otherwise. The "issue" isn’t built-into the game at all.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

DogCompany.1062:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Anyway let’s not get rid of dodge, let’s not require healers and tanks. The loot system, for one, would keep people from running a healer and gameplay would not be even remotely varied in a trinity game.

I appreciate your response and would definitely like your input regarding the Dodge ability. I would most like to hear from you regarding this question.

What would your reaction be if, Dodge, only reduced the Damage taken from opponents instead of a 100% Damage avoidance?

I’ll respond with my earlier post:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Well, let me ask you this, if you dodge a punch, and it doesn’t hit you in real life, does it still hurt? (Do you feel 10% of that force?)

That’s how I feel on the matter. I see no reason why skill and good timing shouldn’t keep you safe.

I don’t see it as skill, but I do agree with you on good timing. Also, if we are speaking realistically, Dodging doesn’t nullify all Damage, unless you take into account a flesh wound, such as a knife, or a bullet grazing your skin. In the end, there is some trauma taken after such events. So my question for you still stands.

DogCompany.1062:

To answer your question, yes, I participate in Dungeons and that’s the reason I brought this topic to fruition. Regarding the comment shown, I believe this is exactly why Dungeons need to be altered.

My question for you is; should Arena Net remove the ability, Dodge, from every class in order to require more Healer/Tank classes and establish parties of different professions instead of one profession to “rule them all?”

I don’t think so. I just think the community just needs to get used to the fact that this game doesn’t have tanks and healers.

What would be awesome is if they could divorce pvp from pve so that they could buff PvE healing power & toughness such that they would be actual useful stats to have in pve. Regen tic’ing for 250 instead of 130 is a joke when mobs are hitting for 10k+.

There still wouldn’t be tanks & healers, but people who wear clerics / soldiers could actually be more useful.

Edit: I had a couple other things I wanted to point out. Berserker gear is not a profession. You should stop referring to it as such because profession already has an established meaning in the gw2 context.

The other point I wanted to make is the other type of damage dealing: conditions. Condition builds are already in a good place when they are by themselves. Stacking up the DoTs can do sizable dps – and specifically necro condition builds do by far the most dps when the # of targets > 3. The problem is you can only have one per group because of the idiotic way ArenaNet handles conditions. This is probably another issue that needs to be resolved in a pve/pvp split, but for pve exclusively the following changes need to be made: No more cap limit for bleeds & torment. Poison & burning need to stack per player. So if 5 players burn a boss, he needs to have 5 stacks of burning each with its own dps & duration, not a super long burning duration that does variable damage based on each player condition damage.

Those two changes alone would make condition damage a very viable alternative to power/crit in dungeons.

synk.6907:

Removing dodge would cripple GW2’s intended style of combat.

Altering dodge to still cause damage, albeit a small amount, seems like a slap on the wrist of players who’ve learned a fight’s mechanics and know the attacks. Moreso considering that we all have endurance and a limited ability to dodge in succession.

I appreciate your comments regarding the Dodge ability.

So, would it be best if Dodge wasn’t a 100% Damage avoidance? Would it be alright, for example, Dodge would reduce 60% of Damage taken from opponents?

DogCompany.1062:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

DogCompany.1062:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Anyway let’s not get rid of dodge, let’s not require healers and tanks. The loot system, for one, would keep people from running a healer and gameplay would not be even remotely varied in a trinity game.

I appreciate your response and would definitely like your input regarding the Dodge ability. I would most like to hear from you regarding this question.

What would your reaction be if, Dodge, only reduced the Damage taken from opponents instead of a 100% Damage avoidance?

I’ll respond with my earlier post:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Well, let me ask you this, if you dodge a punch, and it doesn’t hit you in real life, does it still hurt? (Do you feel 10% of that force?)

That’s how I feel on the matter. I see no reason why skill and good timing shouldn’t keep you safe.

I don’t see it as skill, but I do agree with you on good timing. Also, if we are speaking realistically, Dodging doesn’t nullify all Damage, unless you take into account a flesh wound, such as a knife, or a bullet grazing your skin. In the end, there is some trauma taken after such events. So my question for you still stands.

I’m saying, you can dodge a punch without getting hurt. If you evade any hit by a person, you don’t get hurt. If you don’t evade entirely, you’ll have a flesh wound or something.

You don’t have to see it as skill. I see it as skill because I am not skilled enough or knowledgable enough to, say, melee Lupicus and understand when to dodge. Player skill and practice allows them to virtually receive no damage. However, 1 year ago, when the fight was fresh and new, not anyone (or maybe more accurately, barely anyone) knew how to fight the Lupi fight in an efficient manner. Most fights currently in the game have been done possibly 500 times or more by certain players. When you do something that many times you become skilled at that fight.

Are you a bot, responding to trigger words? You don’t seem to read the full sentences.

Then how would we get past deadeyes? They do 50,000 damage kill shots. Lupicus deals 16,000 damage with swipes. Lupine blasts deal ~8,000 damage. There is absolutely no benefit to making dodges reduce damage, all it does is make dungeons get cleared slower since you have to compensate with defensive gear, and I much prefer being rewarded for skillful dodging rather than being gear gated.

wolfpaq.7354:

DogCompany.1062:

To answer your question, yes, I participate in Dungeons and that’s the reason I brought this topic to fruition. Regarding the comment shown, I believe this is exactly why Dungeons need to be altered.

My question for you is; should Arena Net remove the ability, Dodge, from every class in order to require more Healer/Tank classes and establish parties of different professions instead of one profession to “rule them all?”

I don’t think so. I just think the community just needs to get used to the fact that this game doesn’t have tanks and healers.

What would be awesome is if they could divorce pvp from pve so that they could buff PvE healing power & toughness such that they would be actual useful stats to have in pve. Regen tic’ing for 250 instead of 130 is a joke when mobs are hitting for 10k+.

There still wouldn’t be tanks & healers, but people who wear clerics / soldiers could actually be more useful.

Personally, I prefer to give support to the parties I’m with, Guardian is my lead role and that’s how its been since the beginning. It’s also unfortunate that stats, Cleric/Soldier, doesn’t offer much do to Damage and are very unpopular.

Another question I have is this; would the Support-Type professions be utilized if the Dungeons recommended or required at least one in a party?

Well, yes. A truly skilled team would adapt to any dungeon design changes and make the most efficient team possible. If that became “we need a bear bow” I’m sure they’d do it.

hendo.1940:

Then how would we get past deadeyes? They do 50,000 damage kill shots. Lupicus deals 16,000 damage with swipes. Lupine blasts deal ~8,000 damage. There is absolutely no benefit to making dodges reduce damage, all it does is make dungeons get cleared slower since you have to compensate with defensive gear, and I much prefer being rewarded for skillful dodging rather than being gear gated.

Interesting comment. Say that the Dodge ability was nullified and Damage was still taken, for example, 60% of Damage was reduced as you perform a Dodge. Would that encourage more Healer-Type professions to come out to benefit parties such as those who participate, in the Dungeon, Arah?

DogCompany.1062:

Personally, I prefer to give support to the parties I’m with, Guardian is my lead role and that’s how its been since the beginning. It’s also unfortunate that stats, Cleric/Soldier, doesn’t offer much do to Damage and are very unpopular.

Another question I have is this; would the Support-Type professions be utilized if the Dungeons recommended or required at least one in a party?

Support Type professions are already utilized. They just do it with berserker gear so that while their support skills are on cooldown they can be doing reasonable damage.

The game has no healer profession— every class is responsible for its own healing with the 6 ability.

The game has no tank profession— there are no aggro-drawing mechanics (except wearing toughness gear, which is unreliable at best) in this game.

There is no Trinity in GW2, and that is the stated goal of the designers. Tanks and Healers will never have a role in the game.

Instead of passive support from tanking and healing, the game has active support, from varied classes like guardians, mesmers, elementalists, and engineers— in fact, just about every class provides support in some fashion (except necro, which is why they’re not used in dungeons). This is absolutely critical to dungeon success.

Seriously, why is a trinity necessary? There’s already tons of diversity in roles from different classes. If you still want a trinity, go play another game.

Dual.8953:

DogCompany.1062:

maxinion.8396:

The roles of dps/tank/healer are old and boring, and done to death by other games. (Though we could always use more— condition could be improved, etc.)

I understand that this game doesn’t need Tanks/Healers and that was definitely a topic that concerned me the most. First, I enjoyed playing the role as Healer. I don’t mind having others do the majority of the Damage. Since that was my first build as a Guardian, it quickly grew outdated and unwanted as Guild Wars 2 became more populated. Therefore, I was forced to change to a different build and train myself in that new combat style that the majority of players prefer or else threaten dismal from the party.

So, in the end, has Guild Wars 2 become such a linear game, in which, players must continue to update their build, play-style, and meet a standard to enjoy the game?

That’s about my problem with the whole Zerker thing. If you want to play in some way other then the current DPS meta, you’ll have difficulty finding a party. Shame too because this linearity exactly what a lot of players came to GW2 to escape. This mentality is largely driven by players’ desire for gold gain.
I can think of 3 solutions off the top of my head.
1) Increase the difficulty of dungeons to the point that full Zerker parties won’t work.
2) Add challenges that target specific skillsets
3) Make the dungeon rewards undesirable to farmers

Wrong. It’s faster to find a party with no prerequisite than a zerker party. It’s especially slow to find a meta party from the lfg.

Another point: guards are still excellent support, even in full zerker. Stability, protection, reflects, and so much aegis. This kind of support is incredible! You’re preventing 20-100% of the damage that your allies are taking, without sacrificing any of your own damage!

Have people really still not got their heads around the fact that “support” is not tied to your gear/stats?

Those zerk guards ARE providing support/defense, you don’t have to be full bunker clerics in order to do as such.

And no, nerfing active defense in order to try and promote lolfacetanks and zero dps heal spammers to the meta is a terrible idea.

Dual.8953:

Harper.4173:

Dual.8953:

I can think of 3 solutions off the top of my head.
1) Increase the difficulty of dungeons to the point that full Zerker parties won’t work.
2) Add challenges that target specific skillsets
3) Make the dungeon rewards undesirable to farmers

1) that’s biased, hateful and unfair. Why should that be the case? Why shouldn’t Cleric’s be unable to complete dungeons?
Just because zerker is most effective at clearing a dungeon doesn’t mean it will not immediately be replaced by a new meta the moment it is no longer the best possible alternative.
Zerker isn’t a gear set friend, it’s a state of mind.

2)Could work, but most player won’t bother.
3)Then who’ll do your dungeons?

Do you remember how much people did dungeons before the 1+ gold reward system was implemented? People did CoF P1 – TO FARM. And pretty much none of the other dungeons because they weren’t worth it.

1) Glass Cannoning is supposed to be high risk, high reward. The fact that most parties run full zerk, to the point that you’re seen as a burden for not following suit, suggests that the risk factor isn’t there. Increasing the difficulty will do wonders, it’ll increase the importance of support, in increasing the difficulty they could rework control’s effectiveness, and if they make it harder to melee burn mobs down, ranged will become valuable again. To make things more clear, Zerker parties would still be possible, it’d just require much more skill to run one without wiping. Ideally most parties will consist of 1-3 dps and 2 other specs to support them.
2) Rather not this one, it’d just some abitrary challenge that’d artifcally make taking someone with a different spec important.
3) Dungeons are the way they are now because they’re became farmable. Farming them is what has caused the player base’s tactics to develop so rapidly that an optimum strategy was found. Farming is what drives this need for efficiency, and has driven the need to create universally optimum tactic. With farming gone, only people who actually want to do the content for fun will remain, the farmers will move onto the next farmable thing. That said this is probably the laziest, and least helpful solution.

1. Insistence on best DPS gear in GW2 dungeons is not due to lack of risk. It is a demand that one’s dungeon party consist of experienced players with skill. There are plenty of berserker players who lack one, the other, or both, and they are likely no more welcome than someone in cleric’s would be.

Full berserker clears that do not use support, active defense, etc. would (and do) fail. Ranged will only ever be optimal in GW2 dungeons if its damage is upped to be comparable to melee. Boosting dungeon difficulty will just cut down on dungeon accessibility.

3. Two issues here. How do you entice players to repeat dungeons over and over again if you remove rewards, or make them not worth the effort (i.e., remove the possibility of farming them)? This idea would just reduce the number of players doing dungeons. How many people actually do dungeons over and over again just for fun? Do you think people would flock to the dungeon for the challenge? I think the GW2 community has pretty much disproved the idea that people play MMO’s solely for fun.

The other flaw in this thinking is that players would not have evolved the dungeon meta without dungeons being farm spots. Let’s assume that people do dungeons only for fun? What fun is that? For some, the fun is in playing well and doing the dungeon quickly and efficiently. There would still be a “best way” meta, there just wouldn’t be as many using it.

wolfpaq.7354:

DogCompany.1062:

Personally, I prefer to give support to the parties I’m with, Guardian is my lead role and that’s how its been since the beginning. It’s also unfortunate that stats, Cleric/Soldier, doesn’t offer much do to Damage and are very unpopular.

Another question I have is this; would the Support-Type professions be utilized if the Dungeons recommended or required at least one in a party?

Support Type professions are already utilized. They just do it with berserker gear so that while their support skills are on cooldown they can be doing reasonable damage.

You know I main a full zerk guardian, I manage to do impressive damage and I give all kinds of support. Blinding trash adding vunerability, up to 3 party wide blocks in a row, wall of reflection for projectile control, shield of the avenger for even more projectile control, fire fields to assist with might stacking this also removes conditions. Virtute of courage at just the right moment for an AOE party heal and 3 condi removal. This is all while using GS, Sword and focus, I haven’t even gotten into using hammer for unlimited protection when needed.

What doesn’t help the party is staff camping guardian thinking their 12 stacks of might and heal is making a difference in every situation. It doesn’t, this isn’t a trinity game with assigned roles. This is the kind of game where 5 players work together to make the most of their skills and utilities , there are no roles.

The problem is not Full DPS build, the problem is that any other role are simply broken.

Support exist and fill a great role, but the vast majority of important support are basic support that need nothing from trait or gear. Meaning that the important support can come from a full DPS build. Even full DPS build have some support trait like on the guardian that use trait like Master of Consecration. But these trait are worth having, while most support trait and all support gear stats are near useless. You will need reflect in a Full DPS group, but you won’t need additional healing.

If the game make the Support useful, then more Support build will exist.

Thaddeus.4891:

The problem is not Full DPS build, the problem is that any other role are simply broken.

Support exist and fill a great role, but the vast majority of important support are basic support that need nothing from trait or gear. Meaning that the important support can come from a full DPS build. Even full DPS build have some support trait like on the guardian that use trait like Master of Consecration. But these trait are worth having, while most support trait and all support gear stats are near useless. You will need reflect in a Full DPS group, but you won’t need additional healing.

If the game make the Support useful, then more Support build will exist.

Support is already super useful. This is why people run guardians and mesmers and eles.

Here’s a nice video from a GW2 dev about guardian PVE builds. Notice that he runs full zerker, but emphasizes the support role of guardians with blinds and aegis. This is exactly the right role of guardians.

(on a side note: very pleasantly surprised he’s using 20/25/0/0/25!)

well that pretty much ended every guardian thread in the guardian forum +1

Did anyone read prelaunch blogs from anet? Anet doesn’t like reactive damage reduction and we’re thankful for it. Please read the following quotes (or even better, whole articles/interviews)

http://amd-icbm.com/icbm/eric-flannum-talks-about-death-and-healing/

gamona: There is no dedicated healing class in Guild Wars 2 which makes combat unlike other MMORPGs where you have a tank, a healer and damage dealer. Maybe you can tell us how a combat situation will/can work out in Guild Wars 2?

Eric Flannum: I can give you an example of an epic boss battle we had just a few nights ago. We were testing a dungeon which is normally supposed to be challenging for a full party of five. Well, we had an odd number of people testing and were left with only three people. Two warriors and an as yet unnamed ranged profession. I was one of the warriors and was specced out for ranged damage and was carrying a longbow and rifle. The other warrior was more of a traditional warrior with lots of health and specced for mace and shield. Our ranged companion was specced for ranged damage with a little bit of control.

We fought our way into the dungeon fairly well until we got into a fight with 5 boss golems each of whom uses a different type of elemental beam weapon. We were clearly overmatched but pressed on, determined to take some of them with us. Our more tankish warrior would call out targets and our ranged friend would immobilize them while I inflicted as much aoe damage as possible. If one of the warrior went down we’d use the downed skill “Retreat!” to give a speed buff to the others which would further enable them to kite the golems away so we could revive our fallen companion. A few times during the fight the other warrior would also use a downed skill called Vengeance which allows the warrior to get up and act normally for a short period of time before going straight to “defeated.” He’d use this skill to rez a friend or lead the golems away for a short period of time while the others healed. We defeated this encounter with no healer and nobody even playing one of the more support oriented professions in the game. We subsisted solely on self heals, solid tactics, and a little bit of luck.

http://amd-icbm.com/icbm/anet-blog-whats-your-style-jon-peters-talks-about-combat/

Healing Skill slot
“Everyone has a dedicated slot on their skill bar where they must place a healing skill. These vary greatly and are an intimate part of the Guild Wars 2 build-making process, but ultimately they are your most efficient and reliable way to sustain yourself in battle. Why did we do this? Because we think it is a more interesting way to create sustained encounters for solo players AND groups while keeping players focused on themselves and their surroundings.”

No allied targeting
“This is one of the big ones. There are no skills that specifically target allies. Everything must be done using positioning, ground targeting or other unconventional methods. This keeps every profession focused on their allies in the world, which adds a tactical complexity to the combat. Instead of watching red bars, we want you to watch your allies in the world. Making sure you are dropping ground-targeted spells effectively and moving into position to block attacks on allies is how we want players to defend each other.”

Summary
“We’ve said this a few times in a few places but I can’t reiterate it enough: We built this game so that they professions act as play styles, not as roles. Each profession can support, control, and do damage. We believe that this creates more dynamic combat and more distinct professions because there are more play styles than roles.”

“One of the best ways to explain this is with an analogy. In a first person shooter there can be a variety of weapons, from sniper rifles to rocket launchers to machine guns and shotguns. No one looks at these weapons and says, “They’re all the same, they all just do DPS.” Why should an MMO be any different?”

Hopefully, that should help you understand the difference between gw2 and other mmos.

maxinion.8396:

The game has no healer profession— every class is responsible for its own healing with the 6 ability.

The game has no tank profession— there are no aggro-drawing mechanics (except wearing toughness gear, which is unreliable at best) in this game.

There is no Trinity in GW2, and that is the stated goal of the designers. Tanks and Healers will never have a role in the game.

Instead of passive support from tanking and healing, the game has active support, from varied classes like guardians, mesmers, elementalists, and engineers— in fact, just about every class provides support in some fashion (except necro, which is why they’re not used in dungeons). This is absolutely critical to dungeon success.

Seriously, why is a trinity necessary? There’s already tons of diversity in roles from different classes. If you still want a trinity, go play another game.

I appreciate the response and you couldn’t have made the game more depressing after this comment. In short, this game is revolved around specific classes and do to the social normality of the game, Berserker-Type professions are simply required to join any party. I understand there are different types of professions out there, but in the end, it seems only one profession is required to perform almost 80% of the game function and events. Its unfortunate to encounter, I say again, linear gameplay. If the Trinity was applied to this game, I would assume that would be claimed as linear as well. In the end, having this Trinity attracts multiple types of professions instead of just a single profession mastering everything within the game. For example, Tank-Type professions will excel in WvW and Berserker-Type Professions in PvE. Lastly, I do not expect perfection in the game, but I would like to see some diversity within this game.

Edea liae says hi.

Control builds aren’t useful due to “IMMUNE”/defiance, which is terrible and has needed a redesign since forever. To quote someone else, “The only really viable CC in GW2 dungeons is death”, aka zerker.

Non-zerker Support builds (Basically support builds that are not: zerker reflect aegis guardians, zerker blind field stealth theifs, zerk banner+offensive shout warriors, zerk timewarp reflect glamour mantra mesmers, etc) aren’t useful, you kill too slow, and mobs do too much damage. Or, defensive supports don’t scale enough in PVE from traits or base stats to be useful.

Tank builds aren’t viable since aggro swaps often , and toughness is super unreliable for aggro draws. Plus, bosses do so much damage in dungeons like arah, CoE, aether path, and fractals 50, they’d just 2 shot instead of 1 shot if you were wearing that gear anyway. Plus, Dodge and a party that’s not terrible makes bunker tanks unneeded. Plus, zerker gaurdians/warriors are such great DPS there’s no reason to bring them on full support/bunker in dungeons.

This leaves straight DPS, aka zerker.

Anet needs to make Control/Defensive Support viable in tough PVE if you want build diversity.

DogCompany.1062:

Berserker-Type professions are simply required to join any party.

I wish people would do their homework before making these claims. All you have to do is look at the lfg.

Enokitake.1742:

Edea liae says hi.

Control builds aren’t useful due to “IMMUNE”/defiance, which is terrible and has needed a redesign since forever. To quote someone else, “The only really viable CC in GW2 dungeons is death”, aka zerker.

Non-zerker Support builds (Basically support builds that are not: zerker reflect aegis guardians, zerker blind field stealth theifs, zerk banner+offensive shout warriors, zerk timewarp reflect glamour mantra mesmers, etc) aren’t useful, you kill too slow, and mobs do too much damage. Or, defensive supports don’t scale enough in PVE from traits or base stats to be useful.

Tank builds aren’t viable since aggro swaps often , and toughness is super unreliable for aggro draws. Plus, bosses do so much damage in dungeons like arah, CoE, aether path, and fractals 50, they’d just 2 shot instead of 1 shot if you were wearing that gear anyway. Plus, Dodge and a party that’s not terrible makes bunker tanks unneeded. Plus, zerker gaurdians/warriors are such great DPS there’s no reason to bring them on full support/bunker in dungeons.

This leaves straight DPS, aka zerker.

Anet needs to make Control/Defensive Support viable in tough PVE if you want build diversity.

They are already viable and being used.

haviz.1340:

Enokitake.1742:

Edea liae says hi.

Control builds aren’t useful due to “IMMUNE”/defiance, which is terrible and has needed a redesign since forever. To quote someone else, “The only really viable CC in GW2 dungeons is death”, aka zerker.

Non-zerker Support builds (Basically support builds that are not: zerker reflect aegis guardians, zerker blind field stealth theifs, zerk banner+offensive shout warriors, zerk timewarp reflect glamour mantra mesmers, etc) aren’t useful, you kill too slow, and mobs do too much damage. Or, defensive supports don’t scale enough in PVE from traits or base stats to be useful.

Tank builds aren’t viable since aggro swaps often , and toughness is super unreliable for aggro draws. Plus, bosses do so much damage in dungeons like arah, CoE, aether path, and fractals 50, they’d just 2 shot instead of 1 shot if you were wearing that gear anyway. Plus, Dodge and a party that’s not terrible makes bunker tanks unneeded. Plus, zerker gaurdians/warriors are such great DPS there’s no reason to bring them on full support/bunker in dungeons.

This leaves straight DPS, aka zerker.

Anet needs to make Control/Defensive Support viable in tough PVE if you want build diversity.

They are already viable and being used.

Not in fast clears they’re not.

People really don’t get it.

We tell them over

and over

and over

and over

and over

and over again

that support and control is viable and used in GW2. Yet every single time are ignored.

Well I’m sorry if you don’t consider might stacking, fury stacking, aegis, blind, protection, reflect, mob positioning, crowd controlling bosses and then shaving defiant stacks off for the next CC, immobilising/crippling/chilling bosses as support and control, but I’m afraid your concept, “healing” just isn’t a part of support in GW2. For control you also do not need to use mace/mace + hammer warriors with sigils of paralyzation, you just need to use the appropriate utility skills and weapon skills.

Not in fast clears they’re not.

Here you go:

Also:

Guardian uses stability for the p1/2 transition to prevent knockdown, phase2>3 transition gets reflect and aegis up so no stray projectiles can harm us, there’s might and fury stacking before the fight, and banners for extra support. How you can say there isn’t support here is beyond me.

Enokitake.1742:

Not in fast clears they’re not.

People from speed clearing guilds like rT and DnT tells you otherwise right in this thread.

hendo.1940:

People really don’t get it.

We tell them over

and over

and over

and over

and over

and over again

that support and control is viable and used in GW2. Yet every single time are ignored.

Well I’m sorry if you don’t consider might stacking, fury stacking, aegis, blind, protection, reflect, mob positioning, crowd controlling bosses and then shaving defiant stacks off for the next CC, immobilising/crippling/chilling bosses as support and control, but I’m afraid your concept, “healing” just isn’t a part of support in GW2. For control you also do not need to use mace/mace + hammer warriors with sigils of paralyzation, you just need to use the appropriate utility skills and weapon skills.

Agreed, it’s like they play a completely different game.