Guild Wars 2

hendo.1940:

that support and control is viable and used in GW2. Yet every single time are ignored.

Well I’m sorry if you don’t consider might stacking, fury stacking, aegis, blind, protection, reflect, mob positioning, crowd controlling bosses and then shaving defiant stacks off for the next CC, immobilising/crippling/chilling bosses as support and control, but I’m afraid your concept, “healing” just isn’t a part of support in GW2. For control you also do not need to use mace/mace + hammer warriors with sigils of paralyzation, you just need to use the appropriate utility skills and weapon skills.

Actually, you don’t seem to be listening. We’re not saying they’re not viable at all. We’re saying that compared to zerker-offensive support derived from utility builds, they’re significantly less viable.

hendo.1940:

Guardian uses stability for the p1/2 transition to prevent knockdown, phase2>3 transition gets reflect and aegis up so no stray projectiles can harm us, there’s might and fury stacking before the fight, and banners for extra support. How you can say there isn’t support here is beyond me.

I specifically categorized support builds as meta (mostly fractal meta): “zerker reflect aegis guardians, zerker blind field stealth theifs, zerk banner+offensive shout warriors, zerk timewarp reflect glamour mantra mesmers”… If you were reading, we’re talking about the same thing there. The only thing missing is a stability shout (or whatever you had him use, derived from utilities either way) on the guardian…

We’ll come back to this next paragraph:

Your lupi video: You’re clearly wearing zerker gear for your 1 minute drop, which is the point of the thread. Yes, You’re stacking might, vulnerability, weakness, protection, fury, which the builds i just listed above can easily do by swapping only utilities. But the point of the thread is talking about non-zerker not being as viable or effective as zerker.

You’re only proving his/my point by posting 1 minute zerker drops of gigi lupi .

Why should a more defensive build be more viable than an offensive one? The inevitable progression in video games is that as you become more familiar with content, you slot out more defensive gear for more offensive pieces as you know better how to actively counter fight mechanics rather than having to rely on passive damage mitigation.

What you interpret as a problem, I see as a natural progression. PVT used to be the dungeon meta, now it’s full berserker as we’ve had over a year to learn boss mechanics and speed clearers know how to mitigate the damage from them. This applies to quite literally every single game ever – even something like dragon age with a trinity-esque combat system, people realised stacking offensive skill mages and using fireball and storm of the century was more effective than using a tank to hold aggro with dps’ers dps’ing behind (or wherever) so if people wanted to be efficient, they just used a triple mage party composition. Maybe 1 warrior to hold aggro if the CC and DPS skills from the mages somehow weren’t enough.

I still find it absolutely hilarious that you tried to tell members of two elite dungeon guilds that support and control doesn’t matter though, when we use it in abundance every day.

Enokitake.1742:

hendo.1940:

that support and control is viable and used in GW2. Yet every single time are ignored.

Well I’m sorry if you don’t consider might stacking, fury stacking, aegis, blind, protection, reflect, mob positioning, crowd controlling bosses and then shaving defiant stacks off for the next CC, immobilising/crippling/chilling bosses as support and control, but I’m afraid your concept, “healing” just isn’t a part of support in GW2. For control you also do not need to use mace/mace + hammer warriors with sigils of paralyzation, you just need to use the appropriate utility skills and weapon skills.

Actually, you don’t seem to be listening. We’re not saying they’re not viable at all. We’re saying that compared to zerker-offensive support derived from utility builds, they’re significantly less viable.

hendo.1940:

Guardian uses stability for the p1/2 transition to prevent knockdown, phase2>3 transition gets reflect and aegis up so no stray projectiles can harm us, there’s might and fury stacking before the fight, and banners for extra support. How you can say there isn’t support here is beyond me.

I specifically categorized support builds as meta (mostly fractal meta): “zerker reflect aegis guardians, zerker blind field stealth theifs, zerk banner+offensive shout warriors, zerk timewarp reflect glamour mantra mesmers”… If you were reading, we’re talking about the same thing there. The only thing missing is a stability shout on the guardian…

We’ll come back to this next paragraph:

Your lupi video: You’re clearly wearing zerker gear for your 1 minute drop, which is the point of the thread. Yes, You’re stacking might, vulnerability, weakness, protection, fury, which the builds i just listed above can easily do by swapping only utilities. But the point of the thread is talking about non-zerker not being as viable or effective as zerker.

You’re only proving his/my point by posting 1 minute zerker drops of gigi lupi .

So this becomes a personal definition of what support is as perceived by you, VS what actual support in the game is.

hendo.1940:

Why should a more defensive build be more viable than an offensive one? The inevitable progression in video games is that as you become more familiar with content, you slot out more defensive gear for more offensive pieces as you know better how to actively counter fight mechanics rather than having to rely on passive damage mitigation.

Which is actually exactly my point, and I agree. They’re not equally effective. Anet would have to redesign the game to make it so.

hendo.1940:

I still find it absolutely hilarious that you tried to tell members of two elite dungeon guilds that support and control doesn’t matter though, when we use it in abundance every day.

MastaNeenja.1537:

So this becomes a personal definition of what support is as perceived by you, VS what actual support in the game is.

No, its all support, I never said it wasn’t… in fact, I included it in my post under support. I’ll repeat it since you missed it:

Non-zerker Support builds (Basically support builds that are not: zerker reflect aegis guardians, zerker blind field stealth theifs, zerk banner+offensive shout warriors, zerk timewarp reflect glamour mantra mesmers)

So, if you actual read the post:
I never said ALL support/control wasn’t viable. I said that outside of the current meta, which is offensive – utility derived support in zerker gear (which I then proceeded to fully list in my post) its not worth it since its too slow.

And your responses are posting a Lupi drop in 1 minute using almost exactly what I’m talking about with only a few utilities changed. Granted, I was talking more fractals meta and not lupi speed drops at the time.

In case you haven’t noticed, they’re are almost exactly the same thing. Same classes, Same gear, same general weapon sets, mostly same utilities, mostly same elites… so… ???

As shown by the Lupi video: They wouldn’t have done that time in clerics or PVT gear using defensive trait support.

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that, but you can’t argue those are even close to the same in effectiveness in PVE. .

Fenrir.3609:

The fact of the matter is that “tanky” specs are capable of doing the content, they are more viable for less skilled players to learn with and they do have a major role in all the content outside of instanced pve. But there is zero reason for them to be included in speed run groups or be part of the pve speed meta simply because someone thinks his facetank shout heal warrior should be as optimal as zerkers.

That’s EXACTLY my point… lol. You’d have to redesign the game to make it so.

Enokitake.1742:

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that, but you can’t argue those are even close to the same in effectiveness in PVE. .

We aren’t arguing that. We don’t want them to be the same effectiveness. A guy on crutches shouldn’t be able to beat a healthy person in a footrace. A guy who needs defensive gear to survive content shouldn’t be able to out DPS someone who doesn’t. We like the state of affairs where more skill = faster and better. We don’t want the same effectiveness so I wonder what you’re reading in our responses that makes you think we do.

Enokitake.1742:

That’s EXACTLY my point… lol. You’d have to redesign the game to make it so.

Why the fk would you redesign the game just so some nub stacking loads of toughness can be part of “da speed clear groupz!”?

If people are not capable of grasping the fact that they can provide support and do damage (not saying that is you as you have obviously pointed out that zerk groups do use support), or if people are unable to “go dps” and have to take crutch stats/builds. Then they should not expect to be anywhere near a speed clear team.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

We aren’t arguing that. We don’t want them to be the same effectiveness. A guy on crutches shouldn’t be able to beat a healthy person in a footrace. A guy who needs defensive gear to survive content shouldn’t be able to out DPS someone who doesn’t. We like the state of affairs where more skill = faster and better. We don’t want the same effectiveness so I wonder what you’re reading in our responses that makes you think we do.

That’s more an argument directed towards the general “why isn’t PVT/Clerics/whatever not as effective as zerker, and how can we make it so” then the speed clearing crowd.

Why the fk would you redesign the game in order to force tie support to tank builds. Just so some nub stacking loads of toughness can be part of “da speed clear groupz!”?

If people are not capable of grasping the fact that they can provide support and do damage (not saying that is you as you have obviously pointed out that zerk groups do use support), or if people are unable to “go dps” and have to take crutch stats/builds. Then they should not expect to be anywhere near a speed clear team.

Pointing out you’d have to redesign the game from the ground up to do it, is intended to be an argument against it, not for it… :P

I Re-design the game how i want, so i can play how i want better.

Enokitake.1742:

Pointing out you’d have to redesign the game from the ground up to do it, is intended to be an argument against it, not for it… :P

Ah, in that case I apologise for misunderstanding you.

Enokitake.1742:

No, its all support, I never said it wasn’t… in fact, I included it in my post under support. I’ll repeat it since you missed it:

Non-zerker Support builds (Basically support builds that are not: zerker reflect aegis guardians, zerker blind field stealth theifs, zerk banner+offensive shout warriors, zerk timewarp reflect glamour mantra mesmers)

Then why do you refer to it as non-zerker support? There is only one kind of support in this game. You said it not me, it’s your perception of how you think support should be as opposed to utilizing the tools given to you in the game.

You do the same support skills with any set of armor and it won’t make a bit of difference. You can’t separate support based on gear, thankfully.

So why wear armor that is going to reduce your damage when you don’t have to? Exactly why do you need healing power and extra vitality if you rarely get hit because of careful blinds, dodges, and blocks? The answer is you don’t.

It’s true that most of the stats are useless in pve. You can’t fix this without ruining the action part of the game. Tank/healer/dps where everybody is half-afk autoattacking is worse than the current situation. They should really fix conditions though. Maybe add a new combination that’s full condition damage like berserker is now for direct damage.

MastaNeenja.1537:

Then why do you refer to it as non-zerker support? There is only one kind of support in this game. You said it not me, it’s your perception of how you think support should be as opposed to utilizing the tools given to you in the game.

You do the same support skills with any set of armor and it won’t make a bit of difference. You can’t separate support based on gear, thankfully.

So why wear armor that is going to reduce your damage when you don’t have to? Exactly why do you need healing power and extra vitality if you rarely get hit because of careful blinds, dodges, and blocks? The answer is you don’t.

I don’t mean it like those two things are inherently entwined. When I said it i meant “support from X utility in berserker gear” as opposed to “support from X utility while in clerics gear”… It’s supposed to clarify which build I’m referring to?

If I just said support, OP might assume I meant support builds in PVT/Cleric/Celestial build, like tapdatmouse, or something? That’s why I’m saying it that way.

Enokitake.1742:

MastaNeenja.1537:

Then why do you refer to it as non-zerker support? There is only one kind of support in this game. You said it not me, it’s your perception of how you think support should be as opposed to utilizing the tools given to you in the game.

You do the same support skills with any set of armor and it won’t make a bit of difference. You can’t separate support based on gear, thankfully.

So why wear armor that is going to reduce your damage when you don’t have to? Exactly why do you need healing power and extra vitality if you rarely get hit because of careful blinds, dodges, and blocks? The answer is you don’t.

I don’t mean it like those two things are inherently entwined. When I said it i meant “support from X utility in berserker gear” as opposed to “support from X utility while in clerics gear”… It’s supposed to clarify which build I’m referring to?

If I just said support, OP might assume I meant support builds in PVT/Cleric/Celestial build, like tapdatmouse, or something? That’s why I’m saying it that way.

Then you’re just adding extra words and complicating it you should keep it to specific gear and leave the support part out. But there is no real difference in gear when it comes to support. They are separate, you have access to the same support skills regardless of gear.

There will always be a way to clear pve effective (if not, pve has reached a state where you press the “I win”-button and get some shinies).
Those who clear it effective now, will adapt after changes and continue to play effective.
There will always be people who cry because their way of playing the game is not effective.
If you make the game difficult, so that berserker isnt viable anymore the people who play berserker will adapt and still be effective. The people who cried will drown in tears after they realize that they are barely able to complete the conent after the changes and the people playing effective will still clear everything faster.

So the people cried for changes will still cry for changes and if it changes again they´ll still cry, until there is a “I win”-button.

(sorry for mistakes, im alittle bit sleepy )

There are definitely ways to keep the game action-oriented while curbing the efficiency gap between zerker and non-zerker setups. It just involves making content that can’t be so easily predicted and exploited, which simply will not happen while there is no dedicated team working on it.

hendo.1940:

People really don’t get it.

We tell them over

and over

and over

and over

and over

and over again

that support and control is viable and used in GW2. Yet every single time are ignored.

Well I’m sorry if you don’t consider might stacking, fury stacking, aegis, blind, protection, reflect, mob positioning, crowd controlling bosses and then shaving defiant stacks off for the next CC, immobilising/crippling/chilling bosses as support and control, but I’m afraid your concept, “healing” just isn’t a part of support in GW2. For control you also do not need to use mace/mace + hammer warriors with sigils of paralyzation, you just need to use the appropriate utility skills and weapon skills.

Not in fast clears they’re not.

Here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBtFWy-ccTk

Also:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IaySIyZh4o

Guardian uses stability for the p1/2 transition to prevent knockdown, phase2>3 transition gets reflect and aegis up so no stray projectiles can harm us, there’s might and fury stacking before the fight, and banners for extra support. How you can say there isn’t support here is beyond me.

Based on your statement, Guild Wars 2 has created every class as a Hybrid-Type to where each and every character has it’s own support capabilities. Yet, with all the flexibilities of each class, only one profession has found to be useful regardless of the stats designed for several variations of professions that are not used by, I would assume, a large majority of players. Now, why do you think that is?

There are definitely ways to keep the game action-oriented while curbing the efficiency gap between zerker and non-zerker setups. It just involves making content that can’t be so easily predicted and exploited, which simply will not happen while there is no dedicated team working on it.

How so? All content becomes predictable once you’ve done it enough times, and content doesn’t need to be exploited to be cleared efficiently either.

Based on your statement, Guild Wars 2 has created every class as a Hybrid-Type to where each and every character has it’s own support capabilities.

100% correct.

Yet, with all the flexibilities of each class, only one profession has found to be useful regardless of the stats designed for several variations of professions that are not used by, I would assume, a large majority of players. Now, why do you think that is?

All professions bar necromancer are useful in dungeons, though I’m not entirely sure what you’re trying to say.

Necro are also useful in dungeons, if played right. And the game isn’t designed around dungeons only. Dungeons are only one of several endgame contents. So I fail to see what you think we should understand here.

I’ll say this as the third poster in a row, and now the third time I’ve said it myself in this thread: all classes are useful in all dungeons because they all bring DPS + utility.

DogCompany.1062:

Bread.7516:

Why people find it boring is not really due to the gear/build sets, it’s more of the boss encounters and AI lacking variety in their movesets and behaviour.

I appreciate your comment and this comment definitely stands out. My question for you would be; would you appreciate/enjoy a randomization of the Champions/Bosses forms of attacks instead of a continuous cycle of repetitive movements?

To answer that yes, action games have a certain RNG to their attacks but also have some sort of AI to detect player position and which set of attacks to execute. If you notice sometimes in action games, bosses just walk, wait, and see what you do before executing an attack/defense.

That is not all that is lacking, bosses in gw2 are not only dumb, they have no movement. Example they don’t back step / side step, they don’t step-in (leap/rush attacks to close gaps or to get out of danger zones), there are not many aoe “screw off” attacks or defensive abilities. Distancing and zoning should be something a player needs to be aware of (besides max cleave range).

Also to compensate for the slow attacks on bosses, most of their hits need to be Launch/Stagger attacks – a common trait seen in action games. This could be the answer to player’s complaints about 1-shots; skilled players can stay within proper zone, less skilled have trouble staying in it and have more difficulty. Zoning may also potentially be an actual solution to their ranged problem in pve encounters depending on how they balance out skills – don’t count on this.

The reason people like lupi so much is because he is probably one of the few bosses that his move sets emulate an action game boss but without the AI (he’s like action game boss ‘light-version’). Games like these need to be intuitive, if a boss gets a buff – an icon below their HP bar is not an acceptable indicator (make your animation team work).

Also try CoF p3 boss full melee, he’s sort of fun-ish if not bugged to cancel out is invul stages(imo instead of invul he should just immediately stomp from point A to B – no one likes waiting). You will see a change on people’s fighting patterns in gw2 – it’s more reactive.

hendo.1940:

There are definitely ways to keep the game action-oriented while curbing the efficiency gap between zerker and non-zerker setups. It just involves making content that can’t be so easily predicted and exploited, which simply will not happen while there is no dedicated team working on it.

How so? All content becomes predictable once you’ve done it enough times, and content doesn’t need to be exploited to be cleared efficiently either.

Because when you’re tweaking it and providing new elements on a consistent basis, the predictability becomes less prominent because things are constantly changing. This makes for more reactive play instead of proactive play. Reactive play is what this game’s PvE needs more of, because it takes much more skill to be able to adapt successfully to an unpredictable series of events.

DogCompany.1062:

Based on your statement, Guild Wars 2 has created every class as a Hybrid-Type to where each and every character has it’s own support capabilities. Yet, with all the flexibilities of each class, only one profession has found to be useful regardless of the stats designed for several variations of professions that are not used by, I would assume, a large majority of players. Now, why do you think that is?

What?

Black Box.9312:

hendo.1940:

There are definitely ways to keep the game action-oriented while curbing the efficiency gap between zerker and non-zerker setups. It just involves making content that can’t be so easily predicted and exploited, which simply will not happen while there is no dedicated team working on it.

How so? All content becomes predictable once you’ve done it enough times, and content doesn’t need to be exploited to be cleared efficiently either.

Because when you’re tweaking it and providing new elements on a consistent basis, the predictability becomes less prominent because things are constantly changing. This makes for more reactive play instead of proactive play. Reactive play is what this game’s PvE needs more of, because it takes much more skill to be able to adapt successfully to an unpredictable series of events.

Actually what happens is everybody learns each variation and develops strategies for each of them.

maxinion.8396:

Thaddeus.4891:

The problem is not Full DPS build, the problem is that any other role are simply broken.

Support exist and fill a great role, but the vast majority of important support are basic support that need nothing from trait or gear. Meaning that the important support can come from a full DPS build. Even full DPS build have some support trait like on the guardian that use trait like Master of Consecration. But these trait are worth having, while most support trait and all support gear stats are near useless. You will need reflect in a Full DPS group, but you won’t need additional healing.

If the game make the Support useful, then more Support build will exist.

Support is already super useful. This is why people run guardians and mesmers and eles.

I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear. Right now basic DPS is kitten, you need to have a build and gear to have good DPS. But basic support is super powerful, with build and gear being able to only boost them a bit. There are not on equal ground, the best build is DPS Build and Gear with the basic support. If they make support more relying on build and gear, you could achieve a better balance between DPS and Support build.

Thaddeus.4891:

maxinion.8396:

Thaddeus.4891:

The problem is not Full DPS build, the problem is that any other role are simply broken.

Support exist and fill a great role, but the vast majority of important support are basic support that need nothing from trait or gear. Meaning that the important support can come from a full DPS build. Even full DPS build have some support trait like on the guardian that use trait like Master of Consecration. But these trait are worth having, while most support trait and all support gear stats are near useless. You will need reflect in a Full DPS group, but you won’t need additional healing.

If the game make the Support useful, then more Support build will exist.

Support is already super useful. This is why people run guardians and mesmers and eles.

I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear. Right now basic DPS is kitten, you need to have a build and gear to have good DPS. But basic support is super powerful, with build and gear being able to only boost them a bit. There are not on equal ground, the best build is DPS Build and Gear with the basic support. If they make support more relying on build and gear, you could achieve a better balance between DPS and Support build.

Like change healing power to boon power, and make is so base boon effects signicantly weaker, and make control duration scale with something like toughness?
Of course depending on this is handled, it could outright nuke the current dungeon meta, but in a meta where only one spec stands far beyond the others in terms of potential, is it really a bad thing to enforce the concept of giving up something to specialize in something?

Actually, if they buffed healing power, boon duration and retaliation damage, it could bring back the gw1 meta to the game. There would be more diversity in PvE, but PvP and WvW could get wrecked.

Thaddeus.4891:

If they make support more relying on build and gear, you could achieve a better balance between DPS and Support build.

And why, pray tell, would anyone want that? Are you absolutely sure that state of affairs (LF1m Supported Geared Guardian) is better than what we have now? It’s different yes, but I would say you could not prove to me that it would be more fun or better. Therefore it would simply be changing for the sake of change, which is among the worst reasons to change things, especially when the current state of affairs is working as intended.

To make things actually enjoyable, ArenaNet should simply remove non-Berserker gear from the game. Then the only “progression” left to people is to get more skills (as in play skills, not game skills).

Then we’ll get this kind of conversations:

- “But I can’t do that boss”
- “Well, try again until you get it”

- “But I play how I want”
- “You want to play bad?”

- “But I like healing people, I see I help them”
- “Actually you don’t because dungeon forum”

- “But I need to tank because the noobs need help”
- “They need to play better. The sooner they get good, the better.”

Then we’ll all be fine because people will know how to play, and GW2 will have become a better community \o/

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Thaddeus.4891:

If they make support more relying on build and gear, you could achieve a better balance between DPS and Support build.

And why, pray tell, would anyone want that? Are you absolutely sure that state of affairs (LF1m Supported Geared Guardian) is better than what we have now? It’s different yes, but I would say you could not prove to me that it would be more fun or better. Therefore it would simply be changing for the sake of change, which is among the worst reasons to change things, especially when the current state of affairs is working as intended.

There a multitude of players who want to run utility centered specs, but are completely snubbed by the current dungeon meta because their spec doesn’t do high DPS, so I say yes, there is a calling for change.

Dual.8953:

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Thaddeus.4891:

If they make support more relying on build and gear, you could achieve a better balance between DPS and Support build.

And why, pray tell, would anyone want that? Are you absolutely sure that state of affairs (LF1m Supported Geared Guardian) is better than what we have now? It’s different yes, but I would say you could not prove to me that it would be more fun or better. Therefore it would simply be changing for the sake of change, which is among the worst reasons to change things, especially when the current state of affairs is working as intended.

There a multitude of players who want to run utility centered specs, but are completely snubbed by the current dungeon meta because their spec doesn’t do high DPS, so I say yes, there is a calling for change.

Maybe their specs and utility choices are just bad? A lot of skills are lackluster in PVE but are awesome in other game modes. For example I never use Guardian Meditations in PVE but they are amazing in WVW.

Furthermore anyone can play however they want you just open your own group and say anyone is welcome to join. But if a player gets kicked a lot or spends hours in dungeons on failed runs they might want to do some reflecting and ask what they can do to improve before they blame the game or other people. There’s lots of average players out there that play and have fun and are looking for groups to join, not every dungeon run is a speed run.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Thaddeus.4891:

If they make support more relying on build and gear, you could achieve a better balance between DPS and Support build.

And why, pray tell, would anyone want that? Are you absolutely sure that state of affairs (LF1m Supported Geared Guardian) is better than what we have now? It’s different yes, but I would say you could not prove to me that it would be more fun or better. Therefore it would simply be changing for the sake of change, which is among the worst reasons to change things, especially when the current state of affairs is working as intended.

Well of course if they change Full DPS superiority for Full Support superiority that will change nothing. I’m really not sure what change would allow the best result, but right now a support or condition damage build are really bad. When i started the game (which i love btw), i wanted to create my Guardian to be Support, my Engineer to be Range DPS, my Elementalist to be Condition and my Warrior to be melee DPS. That ways i can play different role. But right now my Guardian, Warrior, Elementalist and Mesmer are all melee DPS. They all bring different gameplay and that nice, but they bring the same primary role.

Without getting into the Trinity, that would be nice if different build would be efficient.

What stops you from running utility centered specs? Random pugs?

Dual.8953:

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Thaddeus.4891:

If they make support more relying on build and gear, you could achieve a better balance between DPS and Support build.

And why, pray tell, would anyone want that? Are you absolutely sure that state of affairs (LF1m Supported Geared Guardian) is better than what we have now? It’s different yes, but I would say you could not prove to me that it would be more fun or better. Therefore it would simply be changing for the sake of change, which is among the worst reasons to change things, especially when the current state of affairs is working as intended.

There a multitude of players who want to run utility centered specs, but are completely snubbed by the current dungeon meta because their spec doesn’t do high DPS, so I say yes, there is a calling for change.

Even a DPS optimized guardian/ mesmer is still “mostly” utility (since especially the DPS of a mesmer is lower than other classes in most situations, but makes up for it with utility). Instead of introducing a soft trinity based on gearing, folks should choose the classes which actually allow them to play how they want successfully.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Thaddeus.4891:

If they make support more relying on build and gear, you could achieve a better balance between DPS and Support build.

And why, pray tell, would anyone want that? Are you absolutely sure that state of affairs (LF1m Supported Geared Guardian) is better than what we have now? It’s different yes, but I would say you could not prove to me that it would be more fun or better. Therefore it would simply be changing for the sake of change, which is among the worst reasons to change things, especially when the current state of affairs is working as intended.

There’s not much they could do outside of literally breaking the current dungeon system that could make it worse.

Just let me gets some things strait. I love the full DPS meta. I make guild speed clear all the time and without pushing people toward it i always advice people to go more toward full DPS build if they can play it. My guardian went from full Clerics to AH build to full DPS build before finally being a WvW toons. I have 7 characters and they most of them are freaking nice to play. I’m not either saying that full DPS character have no utilities or support, usually full DPS players are also better at Supporting than Support build (simply because they are usually better player). I not either saying that this ruin the game and the game is nob bad mechanics and players using abuse to skip through everything.

The only thing I’m saying is : Hey currently, only DPS build are efficient. I can play whatever role i want, but that would only make my character weaker overall. Would it be nice if more diverse role would be good too? I would like that Condition Damage have a role. Like Direct Damage is better against Veteran and Elite, but Condition is Better against Champion and Legendary? The Triple Wurm fight is great because most people have a role. The Condi Team take care of Husk, while the Reflect team take care of the eggs, the Power Team take care of the wurms, etc.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Thaddeus.4891:

If they make support more relying on build and gear, you could achieve a better balance between DPS and Support build.

And why, pray tell, would anyone want that? Are you absolutely sure that state of affairs (LF1m Supported Geared Guardian) is better than what we have now? It’s different yes, but I would say you could not prove to me that it would be more fun or better. Therefore it would simply be changing for the sake of change, which is among the worst reasons to change things, especially when the current state of affairs is working as intended.

I completely agree with you that changing things just for the sake of change is pointless. I have to disagree about things working as intended since Anet is nerfing critical damage and is supposedly actively working on changing the full damage dungeon meta. If it was working as intended they wouldn’t be doing anything.

The only elements of support and control that are gear dependent are negligible in dungeons, and that dead horse has been beaten to a paste by now. The most meaningful change that could be made would be to adjust the AI in dungeons to be more like the HM GW1 AI, where if enemies took a certain amount of damage when they were bunched up they would split apart and you needed to use control skills to keep them together. Doing that actually requires a certain sacrifice of damage since most of the control skills necessary for this situation are weapon based. I would think they have more planned than just nerfing critical damage since just reducing the damage output of berserker gear doesn’t do anything that would change the current meta.

Black Box.9312:

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Thaddeus.4891:

If they make support more relying on build and gear, you could achieve a better balance between DPS and Support build.

And why, pray tell, would anyone want that? Are you absolutely sure that state of affairs (LF1m Supported Geared Guardian) is better than what we have now? It’s different yes, but I would say you could not prove to me that it would be more fun or better. Therefore it would simply be changing for the sake of change, which is among the worst reasons to change things, especially when the current state of affairs is working as intended.

There’s not much they could do outside of literally breaking the current dungeon system that could make it worse.

Exactly people don’t ask to change the rules of golf (or any other random sport) they either learn and get better or they find something different to pursue.

Dual.8953:

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Thaddeus.4891:

If they make support more relying on build and gear, you could achieve a better balance between DPS and Support build.

And why, pray tell, would anyone want that? Are you absolutely sure that state of affairs (LF1m Supported Geared Guardian) is better than what we have now? It’s different yes, but I would say you could not prove to me that it would be more fun or better. Therefore it would simply be changing for the sake of change, which is among the worst reasons to change things, especially when the current state of affairs is working as intended.

There a multitude of players who want to run utility centered specs, but are completely snubbed by the current dungeon meta because their spec doesn’t do high DPS, so I say yes, there is a calling for change.

Yeah but those people don’t understand the game. Catering to people who don’t understand that there is no such thing as a dedicated “utility spec” in guild wars 2 is like catering to people who want a cheeseburger from pizza hut.

The core concept of the pve in this game is…

1. Everyone does dps.
2. Everyone provides support (differing in capabilities by class)
3. No one is forced to choose between DPS or Support.
4. If you choose to neglect DPS (clerics Boon duration mesmer) you are suboptimal. If you choose to ignore Support (5 sig warrior no banners in group) you are suboptimal. Everyone is at their best when they maximize their DPS while bringing as much party support as they are capable of.

I draw a lot of flak for saying this, but anyone who doesn’t want this gameplay is simply asking for a trinity system. It might be a soft trinity or it might be 3 different roles from the traditional dps/support/heals trinity but nonetheless it appears that the “dedicated support spec” crowd just wants some form of a trinity system.

Sorry but no. We (people who like the game for what it is) do not want a trinity system. We do not want certain classes or particular trinity types being required for dungeon groups. We want the essential nature of this game undiluted by cry-hards who pine away for the trinity system that the developers of this game were quite clear in indicating that they were walking away from.

The only thing I’m saying is : Hey currently, only DPS build are efficient.

There really is no such thing as a “dps build.” All builds should be expected to do their share of DPS, that should be a given in any build. And there are a great many examples of how the “meta dps build” for a given profession isn’t even their highest potential DPS spec, but they use a lower DPS configuration due to support considerations.

I have to disagree about things working as intended since Anet is nerfing critical damage and is supposedly actively working on changing the full damage dungeon meta. If it was working as intended they wouldn’t be doing anything.

No, it working as intended. They intended from day one for the more advanced players to be using full glass cannon builds in PVE. All they said was they didn’t anticipate the damage numbers people have been able to achieve through team buffs, synergy, and power creep. As a result they are toning down critical damage a bit to make the numbers in line with their expectations. No where did they say that they were going to do anything about making advanced players have to wear tanky gear.

About AI, I agree the gw1 AI was pretty good. That said, Wethospu had a quote before that still rings true: becareful what you wish for, because if they make content so hard that the elite pve crowd has to start wearing tanky gear and healing specs to survive it, it will be so hard that casuals have no chance to beat it. The river of tears from content that difficult will make the complaints about the dps meta seem like nothing.

" Due to a diverse skill system allowing for a multitude of vastly different character builds, every profession in Guild Wars 2 is capable of fitting each of the combat roles (damage, support, control) or are sometimes even the result of a combination of them."
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Combat

Everything in that quote, which you seem to think contradicts what I said, supports my argument. A good build will be able to CC, Support, and Damage. This is what they designed the game to be. I don’t read anything in that quote which says they expect a soft trinity.

haviz.1340:

What stops you from running utility centered specs? Random pugs?

The meta. If you want to be considered a respectable dungeoneer, you have to cast your pure utility build aside and run a meta build; or parties will only accept you except out of charity or apathy. (more common then it sounds) I guess it really all comes down to pride.

Dual.8953:

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Thaddeus.4891:

If they make support more relying on build and gear, you could achieve a better balance between DPS and Support build.

And why, pray tell, would anyone want that? Are you absolutely sure that state of affairs (LF1m Supported Geared Guardian) is better than what we have now? It’s different yes, but I would say you could not prove to me that it would be more fun or better. Therefore it would simply be changing for the sake of change, which is among the worst reasons to change things, especially when the current state of affairs is working as intended.

There a multitude of players who want to run utility centered specs, but are completely snubbed by the current dungeon meta because their spec doesn’t do high DPS, so I say yes, there is a calling for change.

Snubbed by the current dungeon meta? So you don’t like that they can’t get into a meta run? How often do you even see a meta run on the lfg? Almost never. I’ve seen more “need tank”, “need tanky guard” lfg’s than “meta” lfg’s. So I guess non-tanks are getting snubbed too…

Dual.8953:

haviz.1340:

What stops you from running utility centered specs? Random pugs?

The meta. If you want to be considered a respectable dungeoneer, you have to cast your pure utility build aside and run a meta build; or parties will only accept you except out of charity or apathy. (more common then it sounds) I guess it really all comes down to pride.

Lol, seriously is there some totally different lfg tool out there? The majority of lfg’s have no prerequisite.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Yeah but those people don’t understand the game. Catering to people who don’t understand that there is no such thing as a dedicated “utility spec” in guild wars 2 is like catering to people who want a cheeseburger from pizza hut.

The core concept of the pve in this game is…

1. Everyone does dps.
2. Everyone provides support (differing in capabilities by class)
3. No one is forced to choose between DPS or Support.
4. If you choose to neglect DPS (clerics Boon duration mesmer) you are suboptimal. If you choose to ignore Support (5 sig warrior no banners in group) you are suboptimal. Everyone is at their best when they maximize their DPS while bringing as much party support as they are capable of.

I draw a lot of flak for saying this, but anyone who doesn’t want this gameplay is simply asking for a trinity system. It might be a soft trinity or it might be 3 different roles from the traditional dps/support/heals trinity but nonetheless it appears that the “dedicated support spec” crowd just wants some form of a trinity system.

Sorry but no. We (people who like the game for what it is) do not want a trinity system. We do not want certain classes or particular trinity types being required for dungeon groups. We want the essential nature of this game undiluted by cry-hards who pine away for the trinity system that the developers of this game were quite clear in indicating that they were walking away from.

well said.

MastaNeenja.1537:

Black Box.9312:

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Thaddeus.4891:

If they make support more relying on build and gear, you could achieve a better balance between DPS and Support build.

And why, pray tell, would anyone want that? Are you absolutely sure that state of affairs (LF1m Supported Geared Guardian) is better than what we have now? It’s different yes, but I would say you could not prove to me that it would be more fun or better. Therefore it would simply be changing for the sake of change, which is among the worst reasons to change things, especially when the current state of affairs is working as intended.

There’s not much they could do outside of literally breaking the current dungeon system that could make it worse.

Exactly people don’t ask to change the rules of golf (or any other random sport) they either learn and get better or they find something different to pursue.

I don’t think you quite understand what I meant. This game’s PvE is just SO lacking at this moment, that I highly doubt that any sort of changes that don’t literally make it unplayable could make it any worse. The kind of simple-minded, one-build-fits-all playstyle that it promotes completely kills any sort of diversified play, making for a game where you can do something once and literally have done all it has to offer.

I don’t know about y’all, but my build and weapons (even gear) and skills change frequently within dungeons or between them. It’s a lot of variety.

Black Box.9312:

MastaNeenja.1537:

Black Box.9312:

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Thaddeus.4891:

If they make support more relying on build and gear, you could achieve a better balance between DPS and Support build.

And why, pray tell, would anyone want that? Are you absolutely sure that state of affairs (LF1m Supported Geared Guardian) is better than what we have now? It’s different yes, but I would say you could not prove to me that it would be more fun or better. Therefore it would simply be changing for the sake of change, which is among the worst reasons to change things, especially when the current state of affairs is working as intended.

There’s not much they could do outside of literally breaking the current dungeon system that could make it worse.

Exactly people don’t ask to change the rules of golf (or any other random sport) they either learn and get better or they find something different to pursue.

I don’t think you quite understand what I meant. This game’s PvE is just SO lacking at this moment, that I highly doubt that any sort of changes that don’t literally make it unplayable could make it any worse. The kind of simple-minded, one-build-fits-all playstyle that it promotes completely kills any sort of diversified play, making for a game where you can do something once and literally have done all it has to offer.

Yep, you’re right I misunderstood you sorry about that.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Dual.8953:

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Thaddeus.4891:

If they make support more relying on build and gear, you could achieve a better balance between DPS and Support build.

And why, pray tell, would anyone want that? Are you absolutely sure that state of affairs (LF1m Supported Geared Guardian) is better than what we have now? It’s different yes, but I would say you could not prove to me that it would be more fun or better. Therefore it would simply be changing for the sake of change, which is among the worst reasons to change things, especially when the current state of affairs is working as intended.

There a multitude of players who want to run utility centered specs, but are completely snubbed by the current dungeon meta because their spec doesn’t do high DPS, so I say yes, there is a calling for change.

Yeah but those people don’t understand the game. Catering to people who don’t understand that there is no such thing as a dedicated “utility spec” in guild wars 2 is like catering to people who want a cheeseburger from pizza hut.

The core concept of the pve in this game is…

1. Everyone does dps.
2. Everyone provides support (differing in capabilities by class)
3. No one is forced to choose between DPS or Support.
4. If you choose to neglect DPS (clerics Boon duration mesmer) you are suboptimal. If you choose to ignore Support (5 sig warrior no banners in group) you are suboptimal. Everyone is at their best when they maximize their DPS while bringing as much party support as they are capable of.

I draw a lot of flak for saying this, but anyone who doesn’t want this gameplay is simply asking for a trinity system. It might be a soft trinity or it might be 3 different roles from the traditional dps/support/heals trinity but nonetheless it appears that the “dedicated support spec” crowd just wants some form of a trinity system.

Sorry but no. We (people who like the game for what it is) do not want a trinity system. We do not want certain classes or particular trinity types being required for dungeon groups. We want the essential nature of this game undiluted by cry-hards who pine away for the trinity system that the developers of this game were quite clear in indicating that they were walking away from.

" Due to a diverse skill system allowing for a multitude of vastly different character builds, every profession in Guild Wars 2 is capable of fitting each of the combat roles (damage, support, control) or are sometimes even the result of a combination of them."
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Combat

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Dual.8953:

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Thaddeus.4891:

If they make support more relying on build and gear, you could achieve a better balance between DPS and Support build.

And why, pray tell, would anyone want that? Are you absolutely sure that state of affairs (LF1m Supported Geared Guardian) is better than what we have now? It’s different yes, but I would say you could not prove to me that it would be more fun or better. Therefore it would simply be changing for the sake of change, which is among the worst reasons to change things, especially when the current state of affairs is working as intended.

There a multitude of players who want to run utility centered specs, but are completely snubbed by the current dungeon meta because their spec doesn’t do high DPS, so I say yes, there is a calling for change.

Yeah but those people don’t understand the game. Catering to people who don’t understand that there is no such thing as a dedicated “utility spec” in guild wars 2 is like catering to people who want a cheeseburger from pizza hut.

The core concept of the pve in this game is…

1. Everyone does dps.
2. Everyone provides support (differing in capabilities by class)
3. No one is forced to choose between DPS or Support.
4. If you choose to neglect DPS (clerics Boon duration mesmer) you are suboptimal. If you choose to ignore Support (5 sig warrior no banners in group) you are suboptimal. Everyone is at their best when they maximize their DPS while bringing as much party support as they are capable of.

I draw a lot of flak for saying this, but anyone who doesn’t want this gameplay is simply asking for a trinity system. It might be a soft trinity or it might be 3 different roles from the traditional dps/support/heals trinity but nonetheless it appears that the “dedicated support spec” crowd just wants some form of a trinity system.

Sorry but no. We (people who like the game for what it is) do not want a trinity system. We do not want certain classes or particular trinity types being required for dungeon groups. We want the essential nature of this game undiluted by cry-hards who pine away for the trinity system that the developers of this game were quite clear in indicating that they were walking away from.

Just to make sure I make my own opinion clear, after playing this game I will never play a game with the Holy Trinity again. I LIKE not having one person standing there making mobs turn their backs to me while I mindlessly rotate abilities and not stand in the fire. While I enjoyed playing healers, I LIKE being able to be a meaningful part of the fight outside of raising health bars. I LOVE the state of focus fights require since at any moment I may suddenly be the focus of an enemy and will need to react accordingly. I LOVE the chaos fights are in this game without a tank standing there holding aggro.
I agree with everything you said. Without some sort of major stat overhaul that I can’t even begin to imagine, more experienced dungeon runners, whether they run meta builds or their own, will always add in as much full damage gear as they are comfortable wearing and provide control and support through utility and weapon skills. When Anet announced the game would have its own trinity of Damage, Control, Support that any class could play a role in I was excited. While currently it may not be exactly what they envisioned, its pretty close. The only thing that I am disappointed about is that we didn’t really get the AI from dungeon enemies they described during development.

30/30/0/0/10, 10/30/0/20/10, 10/30/0/10/20, 0/30/0/25/15, 10/20/0/25/15 builds are used by a number of people on mesmer, with the first two and 0/30 being the meta ones.

30/25/0/0/15, 30/10/0/20/10 warrior builds.

10/30/0/5/25, 10/25/0/10/25, 10/25/0/5/30, 20/25/0/0/25, 15/15/0/20/20, 15/25/0/20/10 guardian builds.

I’m not familiar with eles but there’s a bunch of different builds there too (people in our guild actually tend to swap builds while doing dungeon tours when playing eles actually.

I wasn’t trying to make any sort of assumption or suggestion that Anet was going to adjust content that would require the more experienced players to wear tankier gear. You are absolutely right there, it would only be a disaster for the average player.

hendo.1940:

I’m not familiar with eles but there’s a bunch of different builds there too (people in our guild actually tend to swap builds while doing dungeon tours when playing eles actually.

I’m guessing it’s because the ele builds are more specialised than other classes due to the way their traits are distributed, or something like that.