The first thing I’d like to address is the start of your dungeon run which would be looking for the group.
You have:
1. LFG tool (Must be in the same map)
2. /Map shouting in LA or in the zone of the dungeon.
3. GW2lfg.com
4. Guilds
1. The LFG tool is very limited and does not allow for a global feature as many have suggested. It also does not cater to those who-
a. Are new and have never done dungeons
b. Are looking for a specific style of run
c. Are lower level
If you are new to dungeons chances are you may come across people who will kick you once they find out, people who will leave because they have to teach you. I think this is a great disadvantage to the game, and a disservice to those who recently joined GW2.
2. The /map shout function can fix the problems a,b,c because you can specifically mention what kind of run you would like. However, this also means you are spamming the chat channel in that area or in LA to get a party together. So with convenience and clarity, we cause commotion and map spam. In a place like LA tons fo things can be going on from chats about WvW and whats happening to random people talking about whatever, and then to those seeking groups or members. This all turns into one giant spam wall of text that really takes away from the game.
3. The 3rd party website known as gw2lfg.com removes problems a,b,c again by being clear on your intentions. It also removes spam from the /map screen, so in turn fixes problems with #2. This however leads people to grief players as this site is not owned or operated by Arenanet, and therefore much like the dragon timer website, can be taken advantage of. This third option is very limiting in the way that you have to tab out to use, and the posts often become filled before you can get the group you would like. A better chat based, or list based LFG tool in game would remedy this, but that is an entirely different discussion.
4. Guilds are a great place to find dungeon members. Hopefully the guild you are in is supportive and enjoys dungeon runs and for those who are new, they are willing to teach. This method is great but works in the opposite way of the other methods. Instead of random people joining up in the open world, now you have caused only select people in guilds to do dungeons together. This makes those few people less likely to help or join with other players outside of the guild.
So we have all those things going on, and this is just the beginning of your journey through a dungeon. As you can see, these steps themselves are a journey almost worthy of a story in their own right. But again, we have much further to go, as we haven’t even found a group yet.
Now the fun part. We have finally found a group and we know what we want to do. We take our full group and head to the dungeon and the time either directly before we enter, when we enter, or shortly after, becomes the make or break of our experience.
a. You mention that it is your first time and
i. You get kicked
ii. You get laughed at
iii. Everyone leaves
iv. The group decides to deal with it and move on
b. You are doing story mode and your gear isn’t all that great, on top of that you haven’t done this very many times and
i. You get kicked
ii. You get laughed at
iii. Everyone leaves
iv. The group decides to deal with it and move on
c. Ok now your past all that nonsense.. You heading through and the group mentions
i. We need to glitch this part to get past
ii. We need to get around this part to get past
iii. We are going to only do the easy path
d. So now you’re sweating a bit, a lot of work just to experience a story or explore mode. You get past that part one way or another and
i. You are at the end and the dungeon glitched and you cannot continue
ii. You are at the boss and everyone says we will stand in this safe spot or ported spot so we can’t die
iii. Everyone dies and leaves
iv. You die and get kicked
e. Well now no matter what happened it sure seems like a huge deal just to do one dungeon. You think to yourself “I’m either going to never do them again, or maybe just not play this game because I love dungeons and this is my focus.”
Well now we have been on quite the long journey… Our minds are mush, our hearts shattered, and even if this only happens 3/5 times it is still too much.
Some problems I’ve noticed is that some bosses are so insanely annoying that they can simply 1 shot you if you mess up just once. Now in a trinity game this would be oh no big deal raise and continue. But this is GW2, and we do not have, nor do most of us wish to have a trinity. So it seems as though some of these dungeons need to be rescaled to player skill, or possibly even given easy/hard modes until players can adjust. The rewards of course being equal to difficulty as it should be. I think 1 shotting skills can be helpful so that berserker type builds learn to have to kite or pay attention more, but for those learning straight off or who are new are greatly discouraged by this.
Another problem is the fact that mostly 80’s do these dungeons. They are fully traited and in rare/exotic gear in order to have a decent advantage at them. And yet we see 80’s dying in level 30 dungeons even if they are traited as a tank style. This seems to make no sense to me, because if an 80 is getting killed with ease what hope does a level 30 in greens have of enjoying the dungeon? I think it is a detriment to the game that these dungeons have levels attached such as 30,40,50 etc, and yet no one wishes to do them unless you are 80. Even then, some people want to skip 90% of the dungeon for the reward because it is so insanely hard. I know I do not speak just for myself when I say some people out there would simply love to run a well done dungeon even if the reward was less than those who ran the harder version. Some people even run dungeons just because they are super fun to do with friends and help you experience the game.
But as you can see from the giant wall of text, a lot of work is needed to even get into that dungeon. And when you do your experience can quickly go downhill and push you away. Some dungeons like Fractals should be difficult, best in slot gear, varying stages, and many interesting boss types. But for the majority of your player base who are not 80 yet, have not mastered the dungeons yet, are getting discouraged by the amount of effort it takes to enjoy this large aspect of the game. I feel bad that I’ve heard so many (and I do mean many..) people say they were kicked because they were new, were kicked because they didn’t know the dungeon well, or because they weren’t some certain build. This could easily bring some players to tears depending on how harassed they get, or how horrible they feel.
Do you know when someone is in the highest sense of joy, perhaps the idea of playing gw2 for the first time and doing the first dungeon, that it only takes 1 adverse experience to bring them to the opposite of that scale? Tumbling down from excited to depressed and anxious, this is really not where we want our community. On the fringe of loving and hating the game, this does not bring anyone positive outcomes.
So this was my super long speech on dungeons and players in my experience so far in game. I’ve listed some issues and feedback on fixes, but the purpose of this was much broader. I want to know what the community thinks Arenanet can do that would fix the majority of these problems while encouraging people to do the dungeons. Your open letters to Arenanet staff on how we can solve this problem-how we can go about opening up dungeons to a broader audience. How we can do away with this griefing and dissatisfaction with a large aspect of gw2.
Wha..?
Really, too much overstatement in all of this. Never really had problems with getting into a group, especially gw2lfg – what griefing are you talking about?!
As for “cheesing, skipping and bugging”, well you have youtube with guides about every dungeon. Just spend a little time to learn a thing or two. I mean if you don’t respect people who you are doing dungeon with by being ignorant, why should they respect you.
I ran Arah earlier with a pug formed on gw2lfg, and one mesmer had never ran Arah before. What this player did was watch the path we were running done on YouTube, so he or she had some idea of what to expect. If you do that and let people know you’ve done your homework, they’ll be more inclined to work with you.
It’s a good way to gain confidence and for the morale of the party to go up
Wha..?
Really, too much overstatement in all of this. Never really had problems with getting into a group, especially gw2lfg – what griefing are you talking about?!
As for “cheesing, skipping and bugging”, well you have youtube with guides about every dungeon. Just spend a little time to learn a thing or two. I mean if you don’t respect people who you are doing dungeon with by being ignorant, why should they respect you.
Just because you haven’t experienced it doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. My wife looked for a party, once she got one and mentioned she had never done the dungeon they kicked her. Has happened to about 20 guild mates as well. Youtube guides are good, but why should people have to research the dungeon on youtube and guides just to enjoy them? Why can’t people simply run them and experience them and learn? Same thing goes for gw2lfg, why should you have to spend your time out of game to find a group or to do research. It makes no sense that you have to prepare for 45 minutes for a dungeon just to do one. you should be able to enter and adjust, and learn, not be one shotted and gear checked by elitists.
Other games allow you some leniency in dungeons or instances and the leader usually helps anyone who is new understand what is coming and what to do. Here you have silent parties and people just dpsing or glitching everything to get to the end. Not ok with it? They kick you.
I personally don’t like watching videos and guides of dungeon runs as i like to experience them first hand for the first time.
Yes that makes it more challenging but isn’t that the whole point of dungeons and part of the enjoyment.
What fun is skipping everything possible, glitching bosses and knowing everything in the dungeon before you’ve even entered?
It seems people no longer want challenging fun experiences any more and just want to be rewarded for the least amount of time and effort possible.
I don’t think that you should imply that berating players new to dungeons is a phenomenon specific to GW2. Played in enough trashy pugs in WoW, both post and pre LFG queues, and a few other MMOs to be certain that its fairly ubiquitous across the genre.
That’s what happens when you roll the dice and form a group with a bunch of random people. There’s always the chance that you’re going to get grouped up with a bunch of jerks, and I don’t think you should be placing the blame on dungeon design or the state of the ingame LFG infrastructure for it.
(edited by Hobocop.1508)
I don’t think that you should imply that berating players new to dungeons is a phenomenon specific to GW2. Played in enough trashy pugs in WoW, both post and pre LFG queues, and a few other MMOs to be certain that its fairly ubiquitous across the genre.
That’s what happens when you roll the dice and form a group with a bunch of random people. There’s always the chance that you’re going to get grouped up with a bunch of jerks, and I don’t think you should be placing the blame on dungeon design or the state of the ingame LFG infrastructure for it.
I realize this is in other mmos as well, but because of the difficulty often people don’t even second glance new players and avoid them. Especially if they are not 80. Now take Aion for instance, the dungeons/instances were fairly straight forward (granted I sort of despise that game..) but you didn’t need to prepare or spend hours outside of game to learn the dungeon. After a few runs you understood them and could do fairly well and didn’t need epic gear either. But in GW2 you have these level 30 dungeons with ppl spamming that you need to be 80 and in X gear, or that they are glitching part 1 or 2 and only invite those who are ok with that. Why should exploiting be a common part of dungeons in a game? Something is clearly wrong, and yes it is in other games, but I’m playing this one.
I don’t think that you should imply that berating players new to dungeons is a phenomenon specific to GW2. Played in enough trashy pugs in WoW, both post and pre LFG queues, and a few other MMOs to be certain that its fairly ubiquitous across the genre.
That’s what happens when you roll the dice and form a group with a bunch of random people. There’s always the chance that you’re going to get grouped up with a bunch of jerks, and I don’t think you should be placing the blame on dungeon design or the state of the ingame LFG infrastructure for it.
I realize this is in other mmos as well, but because of the difficulty often people don’t even second glance new players and avoid them. Especially if they are not 80. Now take Aion for instance, the dungeons/instances were fairly straight forward (granted I sort of despise that game..) but you didn’t need to prepare or spend hours outside of game to learn the dungeon. After a few runs you understood them and could do fairly well and didn’t need epic gear either. But in GW2 you have these level 30 dungeons with ppl spamming that you need to be 80 and in X gear, or that they are glitching part 1 or 2 and only invite those who are ok with that. Why should exploiting be a common part of dungeons in a game? Something is clearly wrong, and yes it is in other games, but I’m playing this one.
I found the community in gw2 to be the nicest of any mmo I’ve played. There’s no comparison with wow’s community but this has a lot to do with how over moderated this game is. That can be a good and bad thing.
Might want to take out numero 3 as per:
Advertising of any businesses or organizations is strictly forbidden by our forum Code of Conduct. Continued violation of this rule will result in the permanent suspension of your forum posting privileges.
Just a suggestion for the sake of keeping the thread
Might want to take out numero 3 as per:
Advertising of any businesses or organizations is strictly forbidden by our forum Code of Conduct. Continued violation of this rule will result in the permanent suspension of your forum posting privileges.
Just a suggestion for the sake of keeping the thread
Arenanet used the reference as well. In that respect the gw2 wiki would be disallowed as well as their fan sites.
And then there is-
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/need-a-Group-for-Arah-Dungen/first#post1877864
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Does-profession-priority-exist
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/why-people-still-run-AC-after-patch/first#post1877607
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Does-profession-priority-exist/first#post1878523
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/AC-Story-mode-Whiteside-Ridge-Now
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Speedruns-Thor-Elem-or-Zerk-War
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Frustration-with-dungeons
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Frustration-with-dungeons/first#post1865270
But hey, whos counting :P
(edited by Geotherma.2395)
I admit, I jump at the chance to take a newbie through a dungeon as early as possible. It’s not because I enjoy the challenge of leading them through it, though I do, but because I want them to see as soon as possible what they can expect in later dungeons as a general idea, and to get them to think on what they’ll need to bring to the table.
That side, the idea that players new to dungeons, or to any game at all, needs to do research in order to know what to do in game as far as just playing through the content (this does not apply to class builds) seems kittening dumb to me. It is never going to occur to new players that they need to go looking at youtube videos, the wiki, or GW2 dungeon blogs, or what have you in order to have their first dungeon experience. The only time I ever did that was for Arah 1, and I find it a lot more fun to just experience the dungeon rather than spoil it for yourself for the sake of not getting flak from the rest of the player base, most of whom probably had the same or similar experience as the new player just trying to learn to do the dungeon at some point in time.
It detracts from the experience of the dungeon itself, I feel, so the notion just seems silly to me.
Youtube guides are good, but why should people have to research the dungeon on youtube and guides just to enjoy them? Why can’t people simply run them and experience them and learn?
Well, you see, there is a very brief time in MMO life when everyone are new to dungeons, don’t know how to do them and start to explore them. After a while the majority of population will know everything about dungeon.
So basically if you don’t learn the dungeon from youtube or guides, you’re forcing your teammates to explain things to you. It’s fine by me. But not everyone have time. Some people jump in-game for 1 hour to do a quick run and don’t want to explain things. Especially without voice communication.
The solution to this would be either to play with 4 friends who are as new to this game just as you are or to find a guild with such people. There’s just no other way around to explore dungeons in any non-new MMO. You really need to look on this from both sides, not just your own.
why should you have to spend your time out of game to find a group
Because you need to work to get what you want?
It doesn’t really takes much time to find group on gw2lfg during prime-time. But yeah you’re risk getting into a party with ragers\elitists\afkers etc etc.
And if you want to get a specific group that you want, well you have to spend time for it. Why not?
I hate the waiting too. I really do. It’s hard sometimes to wait, doing nothing, while we gather people for that arah p4 run. But it’s not something Anet or GW2 can fix. It’s a human issue and you need to respect that.
Other games allow you some leniency in dungeons or instances and the leader usually helps anyone who is new understand what is coming and what to do.
Not really.
Pugs are always all about speedrunning. That’s just a nature of things. You want to spend as little time as possible with unknown people who might ruin your dungeon run at any time.
Guilds are whole other thing. Guild parties mostly explain all the things and it’s even more easier if you have some voice chat options like TS. And it’s even easier to find parties if you join a big guild.
(edited by Isslair.4908)
I ran Arah earlier with a pug formed on gw2lfg, and one mesmer had never ran Arah before. What this player did was watch the path we were running done on YouTube, so he or she had some idea of what to expect. If you do that and let people know you’ve done your homework, they’ll be more inclined to work with you.
It’s a good way to gain confidence and for the morale of the party to go up
I ran Arah P2 with 3 guildies and another player who knew the dungeon. Myself and 2 of the guildies had never done Arah Exp before, and the other had never done that path (last thing for DM title). Only three of us in the group were reasonably able to skip trash (and I admit I died because I didn’t know the routes), so we cleared a path, but we still got most of the bosses first try. GL took a few wipes, but even then there was a sense of progress. In fact, GL was the only part where we stopped and made the two other guildies watch a video to see his abilities. Everything else we explained as we went.
In the end, though, it’s all about finding people willing to help you if you haven’t been somewhere before. As long as you can prove basic competence and willingness to learn, there should be no shortage of people willing to help. So, I’m not sure what’s going on in the OP’s experience, but it’s pretty different from what I’ve seen. . .
Youtube guides are good, but why should people have to research the dungeon on youtube and guides just to enjoy them? Why can’t people simply run them and experience them and learn?
Well, you see, there is a very brief time in MMO life when everyone are new to dungeons, don’t know how to do them and start to explore them. After a while the majority of population will know everything about dungeon.
So basically if you don’t learn the dungeon from youtube or guides, you’re forcing your teammates to explain things to you. It’s fine by me. But not everyone have time. Some people jump in-game for 1 hour to do a quick run and don’t want to explain things. Especially without voice communication.
The solution to this would be either to play with 4 friends who are as new to this game just as you are or to find a guild with such people. There’s just no other way around to explore dungeons in any non-new MMO. You really need to look on this from both sides, not just your own.why should you have to spend your time out of game to find a group
Because you need to work to get what you want?
It doesn’t really takes much time to find group on gw2lfg during prime-time. But yeah you’re risk getting into a party with ragers\elitists\afkers etc etc.
And if you want to get a specific group that you want, well you have to spend time for it. Why not?
I hate the waiting too. I really do. It’s hard sometimes to wait, doing nothing, while we gather people for that arah p4 run. But it’s not something Anet or GW2 can fix. It’s a human issue and you need to respect that.Other games allow you some leniency in dungeons or instances and the leader usually helps anyone who is new understand what is coming and what to do.
Not really.
Pugs are always all about speedrunning. That’s just a nature of things. You want to spend as little time as possible with unknown people who might ruin your dungeon run at any time.
Guilds are whole other thing. Guild parties mostly explain all the things and it’s even more easier if you have some voice chat options like TS. And it’s even easier to find parties if you join a big guild.
I’ve never done a speed run in Aion or FFXI in 4 years of play, nor have I ever had to youtube a guide on a dungeon or instance for any other game in over 10 years of mmo play.
And some instances in FFXI were 5-8 hours long.
I’ve never done a speed run in Aion or FFXI in 4 years of play, nor have I ever had to youtube a guide on a dungeon or instance for any other game in over 10 years of mmo play.
Well I can say something in the same lines:
I don’t have to explain things to new people, nor do I have to do dungeon slower because some doesn’t want to speedrun.
You see it works both ways.
I can understand both sides. Why can’t you?
I’ve never done a speed run in Aion or FFXI in 4 years of play, nor have I ever had to youtube a guide on a dungeon or instance for any other game in over 10 years of mmo play.
Well I can say something in the same lines:
I don’t have to explain things to new people, nor do I have to do dungeon slower because some doesn’t want to speedrun.You see it works both ways.
I can understand both sides. Why can’t you?
Because your way is selfish and detracts from a good MMO community. Telling someone to leave the game and do research, is NOT the same as simply telling someone you are doing a speedrun. People like you are part of the problem.
Explaining and teaching new players about the world of Tyria is the core of GW2 which is community and teamwork. Everything in gw2 screams teamwork and everyone working together for a greater goal. To say you don’t need to teach people, sure. Your right. But then you are of no benefit to the community whatsoever.
He’s a benefit to me. I like to do dungeons fast, easy, and without having to explain things. I want him in my group!
Teamwork is a great thing, agreed. But individual people are playing this game, and different people want different things out of it. For example, I personally am a pretty casual player. I like to run CoE and TA when I have time to play. Sometimes, I have some extra time, and I enjoy helping new players out. Other times, though, I only have an hour to play, and I just want to run a path with people who have done it before so that it goes relatively smoothly. I am incredibly familiar with the two dungeons I run regularly, but there are dungeons I haven’t done. If I’m going to try to do those, my first step is to watch a video or read a guide on it. Then, I will make a post on gw2lfg and state that it is my first time running this particular dungeon. Time is a precious commodity, and I don’t want to waste the time that other people have set aside to have fun with. That’s just common courtesy. It doesn’t take all that much time to familiarize yourself with a dungeon before you start it. The way I see it, the time spent researching is a great investment. That way, you can better utilize advice you get from your party members, and you may not have to ask for help as many times.
Start your own groups if you want a specific experience. Certain things might take longer to find, but you’ll have a more enjoyable run when you do find a group. Joining someone else’s group and expecting them to cater to you is selfish. If you aren’t going to be patient, don’t expect someone else to be.
Its funny because no one but the OP has had this experience. Clearly he is leaving out details.
This doesnt happen, maybe 1/10 parties. Gross exxagerration.
This guy made cof p1 (warrior), first timer, 650 achivement points. I had rude team, and all he did was say “Watch youtube on how to beat the domes part, ill be back in 5 minutes, if you havent watched, ill leave” We waited, he learned it, he did it. Done.
I consider that guy rude, but still no one was griefed/kicked
Its funny because no one but the OP has had this experience. Clearly he is leaving out details.
This doesnt happen, maybe 1/10 parties. Gross exxagerration.
This guy made cof p1 (warrior), first timer, 650 achivement points. I had rude team, and all he did was say “Watch youtube on how to beat the domes part, ill be back in 5 minutes, if you havent watched, ill leave” We waited, he learned it, he did it. Done.
I consider that guy rude, but still no one was griefed/kicked
People are missing the entire post, and focusing on one aspect. The point was that there are many hurdles in place to overcome just to enjoy a dungeon. Not that everyone is a bad person, not that all dungeon runs are bad. i was stating my experience and others with things that happen often in this game. Most of which could be solved by an in game lfg, and some overhaul of dungeons. As it is entirely obvious I’m not alone on that aspect from the hundreds of threads about the dungeons being difficult, glitched, bugged, problematic or otherwise not worthy of doing.
Where is “join a guild cool enough to teach me how to play” on the list of steps? You might want to pencil that in.
Where is “join a guild cool enough to teach me how to play” on the list of steps? You might want to pencil that in.
“4. Guilds are a great place to find dungeon members. Hopefully the guild you are in is supportive and enjoys dungeon runs and for those who are new, they are willing to teach. This method is great but works in the opposite way of the other methods. Instead of random people joining up in the open world, now you have caused only select people in guilds to do dungeons together. This makes those few people less likely to help or join with other players outside of the guild.”
:P
If people want to only run with experienced players, let them. Form your own groups or wait until you find one that doesn’t mind. I have seen people get kicked for inexperience and I’ve seen people teach others that mention they are inexperienced. Why is it that just because something isn’t being ran casually and carefree people think it’s destroying the game? What is so wrong with speedruns and people wanting to play with other experienced players so they can challenge themselves by trying to run things fast and do them well? I am seriously in disbelief at the amount of people making these big long elaborate threads about people not wanting to take them because they aren’t experienced, aren’t a specific class or don’t have proper gear. Why are people so hellbent on turning every single dungeon run in the game into a casual, slow teaching run? No one is making posts complaining about getting kicked from a run because he wanted to do things efficiently and the rest of the group just wanted to play leisurely and claiming that that kind of attitude is destroying the game. Just understand that some people are more serious about the game than you are and move on. I don’t log onto gw2 so I can “be a benefit to the community” and reinforce your ideals that the game is all about teamwork and community. Maybe you think that “Explaining and teaching new players about the world of Tyria is the core of GW2 which is community and teamwork.” but not everyone feels that way. Some people just want to log on and play the way they enjoy it, which just happens to be speed running and doing things well, rather than being a helpful member of society. Just because someone doesn’t view the game the same way you do doesn’t make them “part of the problem”. As you can see I used almost direct quotes from your post so maybe you can understand that the reasons you play aren’t always the same reasons that others play. Players shouldn’t have to suffer and not have fun when playing a video game just because you think it’s how the game should be played.
(edited by Syn Sity.5826)
If people want to only run with experienced players, let them. Form your own groups or wait until you find one that doesn’t mind. I have seen people get kicked for inexperience and I’ve seen people teach others that mention they are inexperienced. Why is it that just because something isn’t being ran casually and carefree people think it’s destroying the game? What is so wrong with speedruns and people wanting to play with other experienced players so they can challenge themselves by trying to run things fast and do them well? I am seriously in disbelief at the amount of people making these big long elaborate threads about people not wanting to take them because they aren’t experienced, aren’t a specific class or don’t have proper gear. Why are people so hellbent on turning every single dungeon run in the game into a casual, slow teaching run? No one is making posts complaining about getting kicked from a run because he wanted to do things efficiently and the rest of the group just wanted to play leisurely and claiming that that kind of attitude is destroying the game. Just understand that some people are more serious about the game than you are and move on. I don’t log onto gw2 so I can “be a benefit to the community” and reinforce your ideals that the game is all about teamwork and community. Maybe you think that “Explaining and teaching new players about the world of Tyria is the core of GW2 which is community and teamwork.” but not everyone feels that way. Some people just want to log on and play the way they enjoy it, which just happens to be speed running and doing things well, rather than being a helpful member of society. Just because someone doesn’t view the game the same way you do doesn’t make them “part of the problem”. As you can see I used almost direct quotes from your post so maybe you can understand that the reasons you play aren’t always the same reasons that others play. Players shouldn’t have to suffer and not have fun when playing a video game just because you think it’s how the game should be played.
Again, people are reading into things too much. i will put it in as plain English as I possibly can:
Without a proper LFG tool people are jumping through hurtles to enjoy dungeons. And you seriously can’t think that it is my “opinion” that elitists and combative players are a bad part of MMO’s. Because they are, and that is a fact, not an opinion. The design of the game (whether or not people want to see it) was to work together. How on earth would an MMO be about doing everything for yourself? Why not just play a solo game then? Sigh..
How would an in-game LFG tool address any of those issues? You’ll just end up with a new way for those players you hate so much to reach you. If there was a dungeon lobby there’d still be players asking you to view Youtube videos, ping gear, etc. Also if you get the group you’ll still have the acidic personalities and people who don’t know how to run the dungeon because they’ve knowingly or ignorantly been carried through by their group.
I don’t know – maybe you’ve joined a poor guild but there are certainly guilds around there that won’t do your i., ii., iii., if you aren’t deserving of them. Also with the multi-guilding system there’s no problem keeping your dungeon buddies in one guild. PuGs will kick/leave/swear because in their minds they have nothing to gain by being nice to you (despite this actually hurting their personality behind the scenes). All of my first dungeon experiences have been from guild experimental runs (high armor repair bills) or tutorial runs where guildies that know the dungeon show it to those that have not. I think you’re underestimating the strength of friendly guilds and I suggest you look for one. The friendly / supportive guilds usually have rules that discourage unfriendly behaviour. (E.g. For my guild you’ll get demerits or permanent ban if you insult someone.)
Before you rant about inaccessibility of the content, I’ll agree with you on that point. However it’s just a fact of this game that it’s complicated enough that you can’t easily run through everything happily with PuGs. Also the shiny rewards inevitably attract people who want to get to them as efficiently as possible, and unfortunately lead to exclusiveness.
I tried to teach a PuG before, but the big issue is you can’t know your PuGs and you have fewer tools to communicate with them (just the chat box). This lack of “interactiveness” is what makes the experience of having rookie PuGs bad everyone in the group (the rookie, the teachers, and everyone else), and that’s why I leave my PuGing to something like once a month – it’s just not good for my sanity :P. Certainly voice comm for PuGs would help, but that would likely be cost prohibitive for ANet unless they charged gems/cash for use of it.
With guild groups or friend groups you have the option of preparing for the dungeon run even DAYS in advance, picking up gear and interacting to make sure your traits fit together.
(edited by NibriAyid.3680)
If people want to only run with experienced players, let them. Form your own groups or wait until you find one that doesn’t mind. I have seen people get kicked for inexperience and I’ve seen people teach others that mention they are inexperienced. Why is it that just because something isn’t being ran casually and carefree people think it’s destroying the game? What is so wrong with speedruns and people wanting to play with other experienced players so they can challenge themselves by trying to run things fast and do them well? I am seriously in disbelief at the amount of people making these big long elaborate threads about people not wanting to take them because they aren’t experienced, aren’t a specific class or don’t have proper gear. Why are people so hellbent on turning every single dungeon run in the game into a casual, slow teaching run? No one is making posts complaining about getting kicked from a run because he wanted to do things efficiently and the rest of the group just wanted to play leisurely and claiming that that kind of attitude is destroying the game. Just understand that some people are more serious about the game than you are and move on. I don’t log onto gw2 so I can “be a benefit to the community” and reinforce your ideals that the game is all about teamwork and community. Maybe you think that “Explaining and teaching new players about the world of Tyria is the core of GW2 which is community and teamwork.” but not everyone feels that way. Some people just want to log on and play the way they enjoy it, which just happens to be speed running and doing things well, rather than being a helpful member of society. Just because someone doesn’t view the game the same way you do doesn’t make them “part of the problem”. As you can see I used almost direct quotes from your post so maybe you can understand that the reasons you play aren’t always the same reasons that others play. Players shouldn’t have to suffer and not have fun when playing a video game just because you think it’s how the game should be played.
Again, people are reading into things too much. i will put it in as plain English as I possibly can:
Without a proper LFG tool people are jumping through hurtles to enjoy dungeons. And you seriously can’t think that it is my “opinion” that elitists and combative players are a bad part of MMO’s. Because they are, and that is a fact, not an opinion. The design of the game (whether or not people want to see it) was to work together. How on earth would an MMO be about doing everything for yourself? Why not just play a solo game then? Sigh..
I used quotes from your own post to avoid this type of confusion. YOU are the problem. As you can see no one agrees with your point of view and you are being pointed out as the selfish one for wanting everyone to waste their time teaching you. And again, it is not a fact. If it was a fact then everyone on this thread wouldn’t be calling you out on your bullkitten. I’m not saying co-operative play is pointless, I’m saying that it shouldn’t be everyone in the game’s prerogative to hold people’s hands through content so they can benefit the community.
How would an in-game LFG tool address any of those issues? You’ll just end up with a new way for those players you hate so much to reach you. If there was a dungeon lobby there’d still be players asking you to view Youtube videos, ping gear, etc. Also if you get the group you’ll still have the acidic personalities and people who don’t know how to run the dungeon because they’ve knowingly or ignorantly been carried through by their group.
I don’t know – maybe you’ve joined a poor guild but there are certainly guilds around there that won’t do your i., ii., iii., if you aren’t deserving of them. Also with the multi-guilding system there’s no problem keeping your dungeon buddies in one guild. PuGs will kick/leave/swear because in their minds they have nothing to gain by being nice to you (despite this actually hurting their personality behind the scenes). All of my first dungeon experiences have been from guild experimental runs (high armor repair bills) or tutorial runs where guildies that know the dungeon show it to those that have not. I think you’re underestimating the strength of friendly guilds and I suggest you look for one. The friendly / supportive guilds usually have rules that discourage unfriendly behaviour. (E.g. For my guild you’ll get demerits or permanent ban if you insult someone.)
Before you rant about inaccessibility of the content, I’ll agree with you on that point. However it’s just a fact of this game that it’s complicated enough that you can’t easily run through everything happily with PuGs. Also the shiny rewards inevitably attract people who want to get to them as efficiently as possible, and unfortunately lead to exclusiveness.
I tried to teach a PuG before, but the big issue is you can’t know your PuGs and you have fewer tools to communicate with them (just the chat box). This lack of “interactiveness” is what makes the experience of having rookie PuGs bad everyone in the group (the rookie, the teachers, and everyone else), and that’s why I leave my PuGing to something like once a month – it’s just not good for my sanity :P. Certainly voice comm for PuGs would help, but that would likely be cost prohibitive for ANet unless they charged gems/cash for use of it.
With guild groups or friend groups you have the option of preparing for the dungeon run even DAYS in advance, picking up gear and interacting to make sure your traits fit together.
Because you cannot currently state in the title of the LFG post that you are looking for a speed run etc. So you would be able to avoid those people and seek out who you wish to play with. I’m referring to the not yet added LFG posts, inferring that they would have a title. None of this is confirmed, just saying.
And again, I’m not talking about MYSELF in this post. I’m stating facts about some obstacles “some” players face.
(edited by Geotherma.2395)
If people want to only run with experienced players, let them. Form your own groups or wait until you find one that doesn’t mind. I have seen people get kicked for inexperience and I’ve seen people teach others that mention they are inexperienced. Why is it that just because something isn’t being ran casually and carefree people think it’s destroying the game? What is so wrong with speedruns and people wanting to play with other experienced players so they can challenge themselves by trying to run things fast and do them well? I am seriously in disbelief at the amount of people making these big long elaborate threads about people not wanting to take them because they aren’t experienced, aren’t a specific class or don’t have proper gear. Why are people so hellbent on turning every single dungeon run in the game into a casual, slow teaching run? No one is making posts complaining about getting kicked from a run because he wanted to do things efficiently and the rest of the group just wanted to play leisurely and claiming that that kind of attitude is destroying the game. Just understand that some people are more serious about the game than you are and move on. I don’t log onto gw2 so I can “be a benefit to the community” and reinforce your ideals that the game is all about teamwork and community. Maybe you think that “Explaining and teaching new players about the world of Tyria is the core of GW2 which is community and teamwork.” but not everyone feels that way. Some people just want to log on and play the way they enjoy it, which just happens to be speed running and doing things well, rather than being a helpful member of society. Just because someone doesn’t view the game the same way you do doesn’t make them “part of the problem”. As you can see I used almost direct quotes from your post so maybe you can understand that the reasons you play aren’t always the same reasons that others play. Players shouldn’t have to suffer and not have fun when playing a video game just because you think it’s how the game should be played.
Again, people are reading into things too much. i will put it in as plain English as I possibly can:
Without a proper LFG tool people are jumping through hurtles to enjoy dungeons. And you seriously can’t think that it is my “opinion” that elitists and combative players are a bad part of MMO’s. Because they are, and that is a fact, not an opinion. The design of the game (whether or not people want to see it) was to work together. How on earth would an MMO be about doing everything for yourself? Why not just play a solo game then? Sigh..
I used quotes from your own post to avoid this type of confusion. YOU are the problem. As you can see no one agrees with your point of view and you are being pointed out as the selfish one for wanting everyone to waste their time teaching you. And again, it is not a fact. If it was a fact then everyone on this thread wouldn’t be calling you out on your bullkitten. I’m not saying co-operative play is pointless, I’m saying that it shouldn’t be everyone in the game’s prerogative to hold people’s hands through content so they can benefit the community.
I like how “no one agrees with you” is assuming that the 5 people who posted are the majority, or even part of the player base. Way off. How is it that Aion, FFXI, WoW, and tons of other MMO’s don’t require you to get a training video to do dungeons, yet you seem to think this one does? i never said everyone should hold hands and pander to each other, again you seem to have skipped over my point yet again. PEOPLE are inviting others and WITHOUT warning kicking them without ever stating they wanted a speed ruin based on such things as level, or gear, or someone saying they are new. They could have easily said in a tactful way that they are looking for a specific type of group, without being rude and condescending. But I am done arguing with you because clearly you seem to have somehow read OVER that sentence 4 times now, which is mind boggling. My god, no wonder most people in game stay off forums. Talk about hand holding, I feel like I should link an english language youtube instructional for you. I NEVER said everyone needs to teach others, I said it would be helpful. And that people should announce what they are looking for and treat others with some respect. I’ve shaken hands with people I didn’t like, I’ve killed people who were trying to kill me or attack my country, I think most of us have come a long way in showing that we can care about how others feel even in the slightest. Except for the few I suppose who must be right, must have things their way, and cannot understand what it means to do things in a tactful and respectful manner.
(edited by Geotherma.2395)
I’ve never done a speed run in Aion or FFXI in 4 years of play, nor have I ever had to youtube a guide on a dungeon or instance for any other game in over 10 years of mmo play.
Well I can say something in the same lines:
I don’t have to explain things to new people, nor do I have to do dungeon slower because some doesn’t want to speedrun.You see it works both ways.
I can understand both sides. Why can’t you?
Because your way is selfish and detracts from a good MMO community. Telling someone to leave the game and do research, is NOT the same as simply telling someone you are doing a speedrun. People like you are part of the problem.
Explaining and teaching new players about the world of Tyria is the core of GW2 which is community and teamwork. Everything in gw2 screams teamwork and everyone working together for a greater goal. To say you don’t need to teach people, sure. Your right. But then you are of no benefit to the community whatsoever.
I went ahead and linked you a quote up here of something you posted less than a day ago, in which you explicitly state that people who don’t want to teach and explain things to new players are “part of the problem” and are “of no benefit to the community whatsoever”. This is the post I have been arguing against, not whatever other bullkitten you’ve been spouting off. In response to the part where you said " PEOPLE are inviting others and WITHOUT warning kicking them without ever stating they wanted a speed ruin based on such things as level, or gear, or someone saying they are new.", my first and probably most logical argument is, how do you know you’re being kicked because they wanted a speedrun if they didn’t say anything before you were kicked? Are you pm’ing them afterwards and having a polite conversation about why you were so abruptly kicked? Well if so, problem solved. They may have kicked you first, but in the end you got your explanation and now you understand why you were kicked. And if this conversation didn’t take place then you are just making assumptions (and you know what they say about what happens when you assume) and this whole post will have been made because you assumed someone kicked you for a certain reason. For all you know you were kicked because they were going to invite a friend/guildie, you said something they didn’t like, one of them had played with you before and had a bad experience with you (which i honestly would not so strongly doubt).
Secondly, I’m not seeing how this is such a big problem? You join a group, they don’t want someone inexperienced (and they found out you were inexperienced however way) so they kick you. Then you join a new group. Is the lack of them saying “hey man we’re doing speedruns CYA” really what’s making dungeons such a pain? Maybe if this happened like 15 times in a row, eventually I’d start to get a little ticked off.
Lastly, but probably most importantly, I have to raise the question – how is a new LFG tool going to prevent these issues? What will this lfg tool have that the current systems do not? In both map chat and gw2lfg you can quite clearly describe what type of run you want. If these people who are repeatedly kicking you from runs without saying anything are just being lazy and refusing to type in and explain that they’re doing speed runs, won’t they be just as lazy with a new lfg tool? Or are you hoping that this new awesomely designed lfg system will be so fun and interactive that they will choose to more accurately describe the type of run they want?
In closing, there is definitely an argument to be made that a lfg tool would be much better coming from anet themselves, rather than from gw2lfg, but this is not that argument. This argument has veered off topic so you can push your own ideals of how the game should be played down other people’s throats. Frankly I believe the entire reasoning for this post isn’t to say how much we need a new lfg tool, but to try and “raise awareness” of the growing problem in the community that is speedruns. Honestly, I’m pretty sure the vast majority of this game would call you and others like you the growing problem, but they’re all too busy doing speedruns. Also, this is the internet, quit expecting everyone to show you respect. I’m not sure what part of the internet you ventured off into where everyone was respectful and courteous but you will find that things aren’t like that in most parts.
(edited by Syn Sity.5826)
Just because you haven’t experienced it doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. My wife looked for a party, once she got one and mentioned she had never done the dungeon they kicked her. Has happened to about 20 guild mates as well. Youtube guides are good, but why should people have to research the dungeon on youtube and guides just to enjoy them? Why can’t people simply run them and experience them and learn? Same thing goes for gw2lfg, why should you have to spend your time out of game to find a group or to do research. It makes no sense that you have to prepare for 45 minutes for a dungeon just to do one. you should be able to enter and adjust, and learn, not be one shotted and gear checked by elitists.
Other games allow you some leniency in dungeons or instances and the leader usually helps anyone who is new understand what is coming and what to do. Here you have silent parties and people just dpsing or glitching everything to get to the end. Not ok with it? They kick you.
Hold on a sec. Your wife plays GW2 and you also have at least 20 guild mates… so why are you looking for pugs so often where you don’t know anyone else? Get a full guild party together or start with one or two people you know and post to the lfg site specifying you are new to the dungeon and don’t want to skip or glitch stuff. You will then get either (or a combination) of the following people joining up with you: a) other newbies or b) helpful experienced players that want to teach you the dungeon. Either option will eliminate discrimination based on being new.
Just because you haven’t experienced it doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. My wife looked for a party, once she got one and mentioned she had never done the dungeon they kicked her. Has happened to about 20 guild mates as well. Youtube guides are good, but why should people have to research the dungeon on youtube and guides just to enjoy them? Why can’t people simply run them and experience them and learn? Same thing goes for gw2lfg, why should you have to spend your time out of game to find a group or to do research. It makes no sense that you have to prepare for 45 minutes for a dungeon just to do one. you should be able to enter and adjust, and learn, not be one shotted and gear checked by elitists.
Other games allow you some leniency in dungeons or instances and the leader usually helps anyone who is new understand what is coming and what to do. Here you have silent parties and people just dpsing or glitching everything to get to the end. Not ok with it? They kick you.
Hold on a sec. Your wife plays GW2 and you also have at least 20 guild mates… so why are you looking for pugs so often where you don’t know anyone else? Get a full guild party together or start with one or two people you know and post to the lfg site specifying you are new to the dungeon and don’t want to skip or glitch stuff. You will then get either (or a combination) of the following people joining up with you: a) other newbies or b) helpful experienced players that want to teach you the dungeon. Either option will eliminate discrimination based on being new.
Again, no where in my post said I was having problems finding dungeons. I was listing problems I had seen with others as I do not enjoy dungeons myself. The purpose of the post was to outline problems people face with dungeons, and how people are treated in game when it comes to dungeons. The elitism, the harassment, and the fact that people will kick you at the end of some runs just for fun, is why I made this. It is just stating some aspects that are problematic, it is not me asking people to baby me through dungeons or to pander to everyone. I think people “should” be helpful in an MMO, that is what makes a good community. But at no time did I say that means everyone should have to teach others when they don’t want to, or don’t have time etc. But not telling someone that you are doing a certain run or kicking them at the end and saying “you aren’t wearing x gear, or we don’t want noobs” is not how people should be treated. Again, showing this attitude was the point of the post. To list problems people face in game, which you can see evidence of on general forums and here.
Apologies, it’s easy to assume these things are happening to you specifically since you seem so heated about it and wrote so much text about it.
Practically everything you mentioned above can be avoided by being smart when looking for a group as I stated in my first post. Post your intentions to avoid being invited to an “elitist” group and don’t join groups that advertise for certain gear, speed runs etc. Most if not all people that are looking for certain gear, speed runs, etc. will indicate that in their post to weed out players they don’t want to play with, so other players can do the same thing, just the other way around. I rarely interact with people I find unpleasant because it’s not that hard to pick out the jerks on the lfg site.
I have never had any of the bad things you mentioned in the OP happen to me, and I’ve done so many dungeon runs, both PUG and otherwise, of so many different paths and dungeons that it might make your eyes bleed.
I am not convinced in the least that your experiences represent the norm. Rather, the reality is that countless thousands of people play these instances daily without a hitch (maybe they succeed, maybe they fail, but they aren’t cruel to each other), and any assorted percent of them could be pubs or friend-groups. The number of instances of people complaining about this sort of thing on the forum is a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of the population, and is most certainly not something ANet needs to act specifically on.
Apologies, it’s easy to assume these things are happening to you specifically since you seem so heated about it and wrote so much text about it.
Practically everything you mentioned above can be avoided by being smart when looking for a group as I stated in my first post. Post your intentions to avoid being invited to an “elitist” group and don’t join groups that advertise for certain gear, speed runs etc. Most if not all people that are looking for certain gear, speed runs, etc. will indicate that in their post to weed out players they don’t want to play with, so other players can do the same thing, just the other way around. I rarely interact with people I find unpleasant because it’s not that hard to pick out the jerks on the lfg site.
I just wanted people to be prepared, as players like any other MMO can be cruel and give the impression that the game itself is not worth playing. Social interaction says a lot about games, and even though everyone doesn’t experience these things, I felt it was important that people seen the various problems they may encounter while in game. And thus showing them that not all of us are like that, and those acts are not the acts of the majority, and not to base the game off of those type of experiences. I farm mostly, so I keep to myself. The only real interaction is with friends or guild. If I were to base this game solely off the forums (which wouldn’t be a fair representation of the game) I too would have turned to a different MMO.
The reason I went into such great detail is because it bothers me that people would treat others like this in a game. Most people, myself included, play games to get away from the world. To enjoy something separate where we can relax and have fun. When not playing my mind is full of things I’d rather not think about, and as some other veterans have mentioned, GW2 is a place where we can break away from that. Even if just momentarily.
(edited by Geotherma.2395)
I have never had any of the bad things you mentioned in the OP happen to me, and I’ve done so many dungeon runs, both PUG and otherwise, of so many different paths and dungeons that it might make your eyes bleed.
I am not convinced in the least that your experiences represent the norm. Rather, the reality is that countless thousands of people play these instances daily without a hitch (maybe they succeed, maybe they fail, but they aren’t cruel to each other), and any assorted percent of them could be pubs or friend-groups. The number of instances of people complaining about this sort of thing on the forum is a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of the population, and is most certainly not something ANet needs to act specifically on.
I was going to reply to this, but i think I touched on what you said in the post above lol.
I can appreciate wanting people to be prepared. There’s always the risk that something can go bad and you’ll get a terrible, cruel, or otherwise abysmal group. Sometimes I have to kick players out of a run I’m doing because they are downright bad, and their badness prevents us from succeeding because that specific path of whatever cannot be 4-manned properly. I feel bad in those cases, but I know that it is exactly what the functionality is for. I then find someone else and move on with the path.
It’s important to not expect everything to be peaches and cream when working with other people, and more than anything is that a life lesson than something specific to games, or even GW2.
For new players looking to get into dungeons, this is what is fair to ask of a level 80:
Once you’ve moved onto Explorable Mode dungeons:
To those who feel that a new player should make their run fast and seamless:
While I understand where you’re coming from, know that you were once new and wanted to dive into dungeons, too. Please give others the same understanding as those who helped you or worked it out with you did.
This lack of understanding is what makes it vile to work with others, and what most people complain about. Without it, you are a part of the communal problem. This is a MMO, and understanding of others can be your greatest tool.
After doing a dungeon after dungeon they become a grind. People grind because of few reasons stats, skins (in case of CoF path 1 gold).
People that did dungeon more then a few times try to skip things because they are literally the same so if you compleat the path faster is better.
Geotherma, I have a question. The video guides were made to be exactly what they claim to be—guides. That is, they are the result of the GW2 community reaching out to help players who haven’t done or struggle with certain dungeons to complete them (or complete them more efficiently). With that in mind, I guess I have three questions:
Geotherma, I have a question. The video guides were made to be exactly what they claim to be—guides. That is, they are the result of the GW2 community reaching out to help players who haven’t done or struggle with certain dungeons to complete them (or complete them more efficiently). With that in mind, I guess I have three questions:
- How is it detrimental to the community spirit of the game to ask players to reference guides established as part of a community effort?
- Is it selfish of me to tell a person asking for details about the effect of Precision to type “/wiki precision”?
- If the easiest and most efficient way to teach someone is to have them reference materials composed as a community effort, how is it against the spirit of the community to direct them to those materials?
1. Because they have to stop playing the game to do the research. When should a player ever be asked to STOP playing the game to learn how to enjoy it?
2. If you don’t know the answer then no, if you do then you can state a simple answer and do as I do and say “There is also probably more info than I can type in the /wiki about that”. Which is both respectful and has yet to get anyone upset.
3. If you have already done a run with the person at that point I believe it is ok as a friendly tip to link or suggest certain videos that could help them get a more in depth look at the dungeon.
All the things you listed can be done in a respectful and tactful manner, without ever harassing the player.
(edited by Geotherma.2395)
This is how I perceive the use of guides in a MMO community:
I prefer to learn through experience with minor guidance when it comes to video games, but I understand those who want to treat it as a mechanic to farm. This, however, should not be the norm when introducing new players to dungeons.
All the things you listed can be done in a respectful and tactful manner, without ever harassing the player.
Agreed!
Geotherma, I have a question. The video guides were made to be exactly what they claim to be—guides. That is, they are the result of the GW2 community reaching out to help players who haven’t done or struggle with certain dungeons to complete them (or complete them more efficiently). With that in mind, I guess I have three questions:
- How is it detrimental to the community spirit of the game to ask players to reference guides established as part of a community effort?
- Is it selfish of me to tell a person asking for details about the effect of Precision to type “/wiki precision”?
- If the easiest and most efficient way to teach someone is to have them reference materials composed as a community effort, how is it against the spirit of the community to direct them to those materials?
1. Because they have to stop playing the game to do the research. When should a player ever be asked to STOP playing the game to learn how to enjoy it?
2. If you don’t know the answer then no, if you do then you can state a simple answer and do as I do and say “There is also probably more info than I can type in the /wiki about that”. Which is both respectful and has yet to get anyone upset.
3. If you have already done a run with the person at that point I believe it is ok as a friendly tip to link or suggest certain videos that could help them get a more in depth look at the dungeon.
All the things you listed can be done in a respectful and tactful manner, without ever harassing the player.
I have a bone to pick with situations like #2. There are some people out there that never bother to attempt at any research on their own (a simple google or wiki search) and ask the most basic of questions on the forum or in map chat. I don’t think it should be considered rude or upsetting to refer people to the wiki. Some people need to learn to be more self-sufficient – if people keep up the hand holding, they will never learn. Just a pet peeve of mine… This is coming from a very helpful person that has reached her breaking point with responding to simple questions… anyway, back to the topic at hand…
Geotherma, I have a question. The video guides were made to be exactly what they claim to be—guides. That is, they are the result of the GW2 community reaching out to help players who haven’t done or struggle with certain dungeons to complete them (or complete them more efficiently). With that in mind, I guess I have three questions:
- How is it detrimental to the community spirit of the game to ask players to reference guides established as part of a community effort?
- Is it selfish of me to tell a person asking for details about the effect of Precision to type “/wiki precision”?
- If the easiest and most efficient way to teach someone is to have them reference materials composed as a community effort, how is it against the spirit of the community to direct them to those materials?
1. Because they have to stop playing the game to do the research. When should a player ever be asked to STOP playing the game to learn how to enjoy it?
2. If you don’t know the answer then no, if you do then you can state a simple answer and do as I do and say “There is also probably more info than I can type in the /wiki about that”. Which is both respectful and has yet to get anyone upset.
3. If you have already done a run with the person at that point I believe it is ok as a friendly tip to link or suggest certain videos that could help them get a more in depth look at the dungeon.
All the things you listed can be done in a respectful and tactful manner, without ever harassing the player.
And, to be clear, in each of these situations I would make the suggestion with both tact and respect. At no point does my interaction with other players even remotely approach harassment.
Geotherma, I have a question. The video guides were made to be exactly what they claim to be—guides. That is, they are the result of the GW2 community reaching out to help players who haven’t done or struggle with certain dungeons to complete them (or complete them more efficiently). With that in mind, I guess I have three questions:
- How is it detrimental to the community spirit of the game to ask players to reference guides established as part of a community effort?
- Is it selfish of me to tell a person asking for details about the effect of Precision to type “/wiki precision”?
- If the easiest and most efficient way to teach someone is to have them reference materials composed as a community effort, how is it against the spirit of the community to direct them to those materials?
1. Because they have to stop playing the game to do the research. When should a player ever be asked to STOP playing the game to learn how to enjoy it?
2. If you don’t know the answer then no, if you do then you can state a simple answer and do as I do and say “There is also probably more info than I can type in the /wiki about that”. Which is both respectful and has yet to get anyone upset.
3. If you have already done a run with the person at that point I believe it is ok as a friendly tip to link or suggest certain videos that could help them get a more in depth look at the dungeon.
All the things you listed can be done in a respectful and tactful manner, without ever harassing the player.
- Except that if I have to pause the run to explain a fight, we’ve already stopped playing the game. Yes, we’re still looking at the game screen, but all we’re paying attention to is the chat interface. Since I can’t do anything else other than auto-run or auto-attack while typing in the chat box, typing an explanation kills the game anyway.
- That still requires them to stop playing the game, does it not? Why is the wiki okay, but videos are not?
- What if we’re preparing for, say, a Giganticus Lupicus fight, and it’s their first time in Arah? Do I try to explain in chat and pray that my explanations are clear enough and that they’re getting the right image so they don’t die repeatedly? Or do I give them a better chance at a low repair bill and link them a video so they can see the attacks and the strategies for themselves?
And, to be clear, in each of these situations I would make the suggestion with both tact and respect. At no point does my interaction with other players even remotely approach harassment.
1. Voice chat.
2. After the run, or before for quick reference, not in depth research.
3. Voice chat. And I would say that in an instance where the fight is too complex to explain via voice chat or chat text, then a video link would be an ok final suggestion.
For all situations when communication and efficiency are concerned voice chat would be my recommendation. Most players who are serious enough to want to learn such things as pvp and teamwork at its most efficient level use or have used some voice chat service or another. (I personally don’t like “talking” in a game, but that is entirely a personal thing. I do see its uses but for my own reason I don’t do it.)
When all roads are exhausted then a combination can be used for the appropriate dungeon or circumstance.
In either case, those willing to teach need a way to find those who wish to learn. And those who wish to learn, need a way to reach out for help and be accepted. Forcing someone to look up information and giving up on them (not stating at you) is not what our community needs. If someone does not wish to help and be a positive part of the community then fine, so long as they leave those who are new and learning alone-since clearly they have nothing but harassment to offer.
Going back to my original statements, a LFG tool that had several options could cater to every side, all while being in game.
Title:LFM Arah Story (new players welcome)
Members in party: 3/5
Title:LFM CoF P1. (Speed/exp players please)
Members in party: 2/5
Simple and efficient. More could be added of course, but you get the idea.
Fix the mentality that its ok to harass players-long term goal.
Fix the current LFG/LFP tool-Needed tool
When we remedy those, or at least the majority, the dungeon runners of today-the dungeon runners of tomorrow-and the community of GW2 will be in a much better place.
Voice chat is indeed a wonderful thing, and it’s what I use to teach guildies about mechanics. That being said, I thought our conversation was mostly regarding pugs, and I have no intention of giving random pugs my guild’s chat info. . .which leaves us with text or video.
- How is it detrimental to the community spirit of the game to ask players to reference guides established as part of a community effort?
1. Because they have to stop playing the game to do the research. When should a player ever be asked to STOP playing the game to learn how to enjoy it?
- Except that if I have to pause the run to explain a fight, we’ve already stopped playing the game. Yes, we’re still looking at the game screen, but all we’re paying attention to is the chat interface. Since I can’t do anything else other than auto-run or auto-attack while typing in the chat box, typing an explanation kills the game anyway.
1. Voice chat.
How many PUG’s have you been in that have voice chat available? We’ve got Ventrilo available in my guild and some guild members don’t even use it — but they want to do dungeons.
Umm… I use gw2lfg a lot. Okay, I lie, 99% of my dungeon runs are gw2lfg. My experience is very different from what OP is describing…
When I join a group, doing some dungeon for the first time, I would usually say:
Hi guys, I have never done this before. Do you guys mind?
And thus far, the responses I have had are:
Neh, tis cool.
Just follow closely.
Even when I have done the dungeon before but I am using a new toon/class that I am not familiar with, I too will declare and usually they will give me some suggestion as to what role should I be playing and some even offer really helpful tips.
Of course, I have never join a group that has announce that they are looking for experience players only or if they are looking for a certain type of class.
Also, I understand that in MMOs, dungeons skipping is part of the dungeon experience, hence I will always try to have swiftness/stability/stun breaker ready when I am running a dungeon for the 1st time. Yes, I will not be optimizing my dps but hey, tis my first run. If they do not start to attack, I wont attack either, I’ll just run with them.
I have seen one player leave in fotm because there were a couple new players who arent familiar with the fractal.
I have seen 1 player who rage quit our party because we were…. skipping, not waiting for him. He was level 80, a Warrior, running AC and he never told any of us he doesnt know the dungeon… he quit in front of the last boss after giving us a piece of his mind… that… is not our fault right… we were willing to share our experience but the new player has to announce that they are new and not initiate anything but follow closely right? No?
Voice chat is indeed a wonderful thing, and it’s what I use to teach guildies about mechanics. That being said, I thought our conversation was mostly regarding pugs, and I have no intention of giving random pugs my guild’s chat info. . .which leaves us with text or video.
That is true, but from what I’ve seen you, unlike some, understand how to go about suggesting things to those players. I just don’t think it should be a knee jerk reaction for others who clearly do not understand tact.
- How is it detrimental to the community spirit of the game to ask players to reference guides established as part of a community effort?
1. Because they have to stop playing the game to do the research. When should a player ever be asked to STOP playing the game to learn how to enjoy it?
- Except that if I have to pause the run to explain a fight, we’ve already stopped playing the game. Yes, we’re still looking at the game screen, but all we’re paying attention to is the chat interface. Since I can’t do anything else other than auto-run or auto-attack while typing in the chat box, typing an explanation kills the game anyway.
1. Voice chat.
How many PUG’s have you been in that have voice chat available? We’ve got Ventrilo available in my guild and some guild members don’t even use it — but they want to do dungeons.
I open my mumble server to anyone who wants to use, so long as they are registered. I have no problem with people using it so long as they follow the rules and respect each other. Not everyone does this, but i do my part to help others when I can.
Umm… I use gw2lfg a lot. Okay, I lie, 99% of my dungeon runs are gw2lfg. My experience is very different from what OP is describing…
When I join a group, doing some dungeon for the first time, I would usually say:
Hi guys, I have never done this before. Do you guys mind?And thus far, the responses I have had are:
Neh, tis cool.
Just follow closely.Even when I have done the dungeon before but I am using a new toon/class that I am not familiar with, I too will declare and usually they will give me some suggestion as to what role should I be playing and some even offer really helpful tips.
Of course, I have never join a group that has announce that they are looking for experience players only or if they are looking for a certain type of class.
Also, I understand that in MMOs, dungeons skipping is part of the dungeon experience, hence I will always try to have swiftness/stability/stun breaker ready when I am running a dungeon for the 1st time. Yes, I will not be optimizing my dps but hey, tis my first run. If they do not start to attack, I wont attack either, I’ll just run with them.
I have seen one player leave in fotm because there were a couple new players who arent familiar with the fractal.
I have seen 1 player who rage quit our party because we were…. skipping, not waiting for him. He was level 80, a Warrior, running AC and he never told any of us he doesnt know the dungeon… he quit in front of the last boss after giving us a piece of his mind… that… is not our fault right… we were willing to share our experience but the new player has to announce that they are new and not initiate anything but follow closely right? No?
While your personal experience may differ, and there’s nothing wrong with that since it is nice to see some helpful players in game, it doesn’t take away from the fact that it still happens. Much like how some people were getting fused tickets on try 1,2,3, whereas others were spending $200 and got nothing. I think we could call that the Human RNG factor :P
Your second part. I really wish there was no need to skip things. I understand players should not be forced to do glitchy, or badly created content. But I think that is on the devs and designers to fix, and it is sad to see that players weren’t able to enjoy the entire dungeon experience that someone spent so long coding and designing. But that is where we are now, and hopefully they will fix this to make it worth running it 100%.
The last part I could say this could be because they have had bad experiences in the past and perhaps felt they would be shunned or ridiculed and thus leaped to anger. Of course I don’t know this person so I could be completely off, but I doubt this never occurs in game.
But it goes both ways I suppose, new players assume that they are dealing with elitists and thus become defensive. Elitists deal with new players who aren’t defensive “yet”, thus having the possibility of making them so. So it seems like an endless cycle, on that I hope in different ways we can change. Too many MMO’s get ruined because of community. The forums may say otherwise- bad mechanics, story, dungeons, options, graphics etc etc. But the truth is most people can live with games that are barely playable in some cases if the community is worth staying for. Look at FFXI.
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