Guild Wars 2

Miellyn.6847:

Astralporing.1957:

Vinceman.4572:

I still don’t know why people like you are either not able to read or not willing to. Again for you: I’m not against easy mode raids, I’m against easy modes with the current raid rewards + moving off raid developers from developing challenging content – I have no problem in taking LS developers and delay the next LS releases.

You had no problem however with assigning devs to raids, hadn’t you. You don’t think, i hope, that assigning a number of dev spots to raids didn’t deduce those spots from other types of content, right?

Most people from the raid team were specifically recruited for raid development. They didn’t work for ArenaNet before.

Can you name one raid team member other than Jason Reynolds who was hired specifically for raid development?

The list of known raid team members can be found here
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_2_Raids_Team

Either the list is very much incomplete if “most” of the raids team were hired, meaning the raids team has at least 20 people or you are in fact wrong.

Miellyn.6847:

Astralporing.1957:

Vinceman.4572:

I still don’t know why people like you are either not able to read or not willing to. Again for you: I’m not against easy mode raids, I’m against easy modes with the current raid rewards + moving off raid developers from developing challenging content – I have no problem in taking LS developers and delay the next LS releases.

You had no problem however with assigning devs to raids, hadn’t you. You don’t think, i hope, that assigning a number of dev spots to raids didn’t deduce those spots from other types of content, right?

Most people from the raid team were specifically recruited for raid development. They didn’t work for ArenaNet before.

First, not all of them (not even most of them, actually). Second, even if specific people were hired for raids, that cost money that could have been used to hire someone else to do something else (and while it’s true that not everything can be done faster by hiring more people, it’s also true that a lot of things in this game could use more people). Third, lot of stuff for raids were done not by the raid team, but by the core team (or at least with help from the core team).

All that was done at the cost of diminishing potential work on other projects. Which seems perfectly fine for you.

Jockum.1385:

Vinceman.4572:

The difference is before HoT and raids the game was in an awful situation, awful than ever before. Content drought all the way. Many people left because there was no endgame content at all, not even non-challenging.
Raids were and still are a revitalising part of content and have made the game overall better, not worse because it’s an additional option to play – option, not must.

For many players the situation is still the same. Quite a lot of people were doing dungeons which are not able/willing/whatever to raid.
These players are left behind and the game is an even worse situation now.
I agree that content as raids are needed and healthy if done right.
But currently I’m under the impression that raids have replaced new fractals/dungeons or other similar content which adress a wider audience than raids – and I don’t think this is healthy for the game.
I also think that it’s plain stupid to release something like a legendary armour for raids without adding a legendary armour for WvW, PVP and open world at the same time.
And its even more stupid to make a big fuss about it and rub it into everyones face.
What should a WvW player think about such a decision?

We got more fractals and fractal reworks since raid development started than we got the entire time before.
It is also plain stupid that legendary weapons require mostly open world, but that seems fine because you play it right? How does your WvW player completes a HoT legendary?

Astralporing.1957:

….

Scipio.3204:

…

Then I was wrong here.

Yes it it perfectly fine that a part of the team creates more challenging content as another part of ArenaNet creates less challenging content like open world. Not everything in this game has to cater to your needs.

Jockum.1385:

For many players the situation is still the same. Quite a lot of people were doing dungeons which are not able/willing/whatever to raid.
These players are left behind and the game is an even worse situation now.

These “quite a lot” were only doing dungeons because the gold reward was in a decent spot compared to hardcore map farmings (SW, Cursed Shore etc.). After the nerf, nobody ran them. Although it got reverted and the rewards for dungeon is fine or even better than before, still almost nobody is playing them which is sad.
What I call the real dungeon community either left the game long before or is raiding now.
Also keep in mind that many casuals that have never done a dungeon path before or only a few are are raiding nowadays, funnily enough.

Jockum.1385:

But currently I’m under the impression that raids have replaced new fractals/dungeons or other similar content which adress a wider audience than raids – and I don’t think this is healthy for the game.

Like Miellyn said, we got lots of more revamps and new fractals than before raids were introduced.

Jockum.1385:

I also think that it’s plain stupid to release something like a legendary armour for raids without adding a legendary armour for WvW, PVP and open world at the same time.
And its even more stupid to make a big fuss about it and rub it into everyones face.
What should a WvW player think about such a decision?

I also think it’s plain stupid to release something like an asc armor for WvW with a massive grind almost unachievable for players that occasionally step into WvW like me. The thing is, I can accept that, I relinquish. It doesn’t make the game worse for me or I feel inferior because it’s most likely that I will never even obtain one single piece.

Astralporing.1957:

All that was done at the cost of diminishing potential work on other projects.

Highly debatable.

Miellyn.6847:

We got more fractals and fractal reworks since raid development started than we got the entire time before.

It is also plain stupid that legendary weapons require mostly open world, but that seems fine because you play it right? How does your WvW player completes a HoT legendary?

…

Yes it it perfectly fine that a part of the team creates more challenging content as another part of ArenaNet creates less challenging content like open world. Not everything in this game has to cater to your needs.

Your first statement’s incorrect. There were eight fractals in the initial introduction, followed by five in the ‘fractured’ release a year or so later.

There’s also still a full set of legendary weapons and precursors you can straight up buy without much hassle. Opinion on this vary but I’m sure a lot of people appreciate the option.

Man, it’s never been about being catered to. It’s about not being shut out. Raids were intentionally designed so that many players would not be able to enjoy or even complete them. Other game modes have their niche as well, without being so designed that they’d be a pain in the kitten for players who aren’t necessarily a part of it to take part.

And of course most people accept that this is typical of raids across MMOs, but it’s an issue because casual and moderate players aren’t offered fresh instanced content in equal or at least similar measures.

Jahroots.6791:

Your first statement’s incorrect. There were eight fractals in the initial introduction, followed by five in the ‘fractured’ release a year or so later.

Fractured added 1 new fractal (Thaumanova) the other 4 were parts of the LS1 dungeons.

maddoctor.2738:

Jahroots.6791:

Your first statement’s incorrect. There were eight fractals in the initial introduction, followed by five in the ‘fractured’ release a year or so later.

Fractured added 1 new fractal (Thaumanova) the other 4 were parts of the LS1 dungeons.

If we’re going to include reworks, Chaos and Nightmare, I think those other 4 are relevant.

Jahroots.6791:

maddoctor.2738:

Jahroots.6791:

Your first statement’s incorrect. There were eight fractals in the initial introduction, followed by five in the ‘fractured’ release a year or so later.

Fractured added 1 new fractal (Thaumanova) the other 4 were parts of the LS1 dungeons.

If we’re going to include reworks, Chaos and Nightmare, I think those other 4 are relevant.

How is Chaos and Nightmare a re-work?

If you want to include reworks, then Swampland is completely different now. Snowblind, Underground, Cliffside and Thaumanova all changed massively since their release. Nightmare includes a challenge version which is really different than the normal version. Those are all actual reworks while the 4 fractals added in fractured weren’t reworks, they were the exact same as the old dungeons.

We got more new Fractals and more reworks in the 2 years since Raids were released than we got in the entire lifetime of the game, excluding only Fractal release. And it hasn’t been 2 years yet, we might get even more Fractals before the end of the year. It’s silly to compare the two, pre-Raids fractals and after-Raids fractals.

FrizzFreston.5290:

You can apply that to raids, but also to a easier raid version. Raids are not going to disappear because of an easier version, and that challenge and the rewards for doing so will stay. Same way that storymode dungeons didn’t affect explorable dungeons badly.

The difference is that prior to raids there wasn’t any 10-person challenging group content. Since raids, the entire game except for raids continues to be easier content. Storymode dungeons were always in the game.

In other words, the situations aren’t parallel.

Vinceman.4572:

Jockum.1385:

For many players the situation is still the same. Quite a lot of people were doing dungeons which are not able/willing/whatever to raid.
These players are left behind and the game is an even worse situation now.

These “quite a lot” were only doing dungeons because the gold reward was in a decent spot compared to hardcore map farmings (SW, Cursed Shore etc.). After the nerf, nobody ran them. Although it got reverted and the rewards for dungeon is fine or even better than before, still almost nobody is playing them which is sad.
What I call the real dungeon community either left the game long before or is raiding now.
Also keep in mind that many casuals that have never done a dungeon path before or only a few are are raiding nowadays, funnily enough.

Jockum.1385:

But currently I’m under the impression that raids have replaced new fractals/dungeons or other similar content which adress a wider audience than raids – and I don’t think this is healthy for the game.

Like Miellyn said, we got lots of more revamps and new fractals than before raids were introduced.

Jockum.1385:

I also think that it’s plain stupid to release something like a legendary armour for raids without adding a legendary armour for WvW, PVP and open world at the same time.
And its even more stupid to make a big fuss about it and rub it into everyones face.
What should a WvW player think about such a decision?

I also think it’s plain stupid to release something like an asc armor for WvW with a massive grind almost unachievable for players that occasionally step into WvW like me. The thing is, I can accept that, I relinquish. It doesn’t make the game worse for me or I feel inferior because it’s most likely that I will never even obtain one single piece.

Astralporing.1957:

All that was done at the cost of diminishing potential work on other projects.

Highly debatable.

I think that the difference between a skin in wvw vs a tier of armor in raids makes your comparison a bit unbalanced.

Ashen.2907:

I think that the difference between a skin in wvw vs a tier of armor in raids makes your comparison a bit unbalanced.

Not really because it’s only the tag “legendary” and the skin on legendary armor. Swapping stats is negligible and only relevant for a very very very small amount of people. Not even raiders are using this mechanic on a regular basis due to unhandiness and most of the people that are constantly raiding already have enough asc gear + every week there is an additional chance of more and magnetite shards.

And I can only repeat, someone who is really after the armor will get it. It’s not that the raids/collection is so challenging and unreachable. It’s also possible to buy it (or buy harder bosses) and collect LI with very easy encounters like Escort & Mursaat Overseer.

Vinceman.4572:

Ashen.2907:

I think that the difference between a skin in wvw vs a tier of armor in raids makes your comparison a bit unbalanced.

Not really because it’s only the tag “legendary” and the skin on legendary armor. Swapping stats is negligible and only relevant for a very very very small amount of people. Not even raiders are using this mechanic on a regular basis due to unhandiness and most of the people that are constantly raiding already have enough asc gear + every week there is an additional chance of more and magnetite shards.

Yes the ones who would use it most are wvw (they might want to switch builds and carry alot of crap so afew runes dont matter) and open world pve guys (were mini maxing dont matter) so why they locked it behind raids is really mind boggling.

I dont mind the skin you can keep that but the legendary funcationality release that.

Linken.6345:

Vinceman.4572:

Ashen.2907:

I think that the difference between a skin in wvw vs a tier of armor in raids makes your comparison a bit unbalanced.

Not really because it’s only the tag “legendary” and the skin on legendary armor. Swapping stats is negligible and only relevant for a very very very small amount of people. Not even raiders are using this mechanic on a regular basis due to unhandiness and most of the people that are constantly raiding already have enough asc gear + every week there is an additional chance of more and magnetite shards.

Yes the ones who would use it most are wvw (they might want to switch builds and carry alot of crap so afew runes dont matter) and open world pve guys (were mini maxing dont matter) so why they locked it behind raids is really mind boggling.

I dont mind the skin you can keep that but the legendary funcationality release that.

Let’s be honest, nobody really prayed for that functionality before and only because it’s there some are crying: “Omg, it’s so mandatory for WvW (or PvE).” I’m asking myself how people were able to WvW without it over all the years. ^^

Vinceman.4572:

Linken.6345:

Vinceman.4572:

Ashen.2907:

I think that the difference between a skin in wvw vs a tier of armor in raids makes your comparison a bit unbalanced.

Not really because it’s only the tag “legendary” and the skin on legendary armor. Swapping stats is negligible and only relevant for a very very very small amount of people. Not even raiders are using this mechanic on a regular basis due to unhandiness and most of the people that are constantly raiding already have enough asc gear + every week there is an additional chance of more and magnetite shards.

Yes the ones who would use it most are wvw (they might want to switch builds and carry alot of crap so afew runes dont matter) and open world pve guys (were mini maxing dont matter) so why they locked it behind raids is really mind boggling.

I dont mind the skin you can keep that but the legendary funcationality release that.

Let’s be honest, nobody really prayed for that functionality before and only because it’s there some are crying: “Omg, it’s so mandatory for WvW (or PvE).” I’m asking myself how people were able to WvW without it over all the years. ^^

They carry or bank alot of sets obviously, still most likely do and wouldent have to do that if they had legendary armor.
So since raiders dont use the functionality anyway why are some of them so against it getting implemented and used elsewere?

They are not against it, if the skin is different if you would have followed the discussion properly. It was Anet that announced this legendary armor will be the only one (at the moment). So, I would recommend to argue with the staff not the raiders, they are not the ones able to change anything and you can’t expect raiders to support or fight your thing.

Jahroots.6791:

Man, it’s never been about being catered to. It’s about not being shut out. Raids were intentionally designed so that many players would not be able to enjoy or even complete them. Other game modes have their niche as well, without being so designed that they’d be a pain in the kitten for players who aren’t necessarily a part of it to take part.

And of course most people accept that this is typical of raids across MMOs, but it’s an issue because casual and moderate players aren’t offered fresh instanced content in equal or at least similar measures.

I’d like to call shenanigans (for lack of a better word here) on these statements.

We have had 1 raid roughly every 6 months.
General PvE gets 2 story updates in that same time frame which comes with the following amount of instanced content
- Atleast 2 if not 3 story instances per update (6 instances there alone)
- Potentially more if there’s also a fractal update
- A guaranteed new MAP. Meaning 2 per raid update cycle.

The “casual” crowd has plenty to do with content and that’s even before touching the near 50 achievements they get in that same time frame.

Additionally, i have to entirely disagree about raids being designed to “Shut Out” people. They have a minimum barrier to entry that is, be geared and know your specific role. This is literally the same barrier used for open world PvE.

Miellyn.6847:

It is also plain stupid that legendary weapons require mostly open world, but that seems fine because you play it right? How does your WvW player completes a HoT legendary?

Partly true. I’m not complaining, because it doesn’t personally affect me that much. At the same time i acknowledge WvW players’ right to ask for a separate path to those legendaries. I wouldn’t even think to tell them that they shouldn’t have it, just to preserve some sort of “prestige” or “exclusivity”.

Miellyn.6847:

Yes it it perfectly fine that a part of the team creates more challenging content as another part of ArenaNet creates less challenging content like open world. Not everything in this game has to cater to your needs.

Well, if you think it’s perfectly fine that the content for you was created at the expense of content for me, you can’t really say that it’s wrong if the opposite happens.

TexZero.7910:

Additionally, i have to entirely disagree about raids being designed to “Shut Out” people. They have a minimum barrier to entry that is, be geared and know your specific role. This is literally the same barrier used for open world PvE.

Oh come on, part of the stated design goals was that this is a content most players should be unable to run. Not “not interested in”, but “unable”. Yes, they were designed to shut out majority of the playerbase. How well they are fulfilling that goal is a separate issue (and one we apparently don’t agree on), but the goal itself is not up for argument.

Vinceman.4572:

Ashen.2907:

I think that the difference between a skin in wvw vs a tier of armor in raids makes your comparison a bit unbalanced.

Not really because it’s only the tag “legendary” and the skin on legendary armor. Swapping stats is negligible and only relevant for a very very very small amount of people. Not even raiders are using this mechanic on a regular basis due to unhandiness and most of the people that are constantly raiding already have enough asc gear + every week there is an additional chance of more and magnetite shards.

And I can only repeat, someone who is really after the armor will get it. It’s not that the raids/collection is so challenging and unreachable. It’s also possible to buy it (or buy harder bosses) and collect LI with very easy encounters like Escort & Mursaat Overseer.

If I had legendary armor I would reskin it, and free up an absolute ton of storage space for my main.

Its a tier of gear. One that can only be earned in one aspect of the game. Comparing a tier with actual functionality to a cosmetic skin is more than a bit off.

That said, I argued for raids having an exclusive legendary armor skin set prior to release when it seemed likely that raid legendary armor would be the first set, with other to be possibly released for other game modes later, not the only legendary armor set.

Miellyn.6847:

Jockum.1385:

Vinceman.4572:

-snip-

For many players the situation is still the same. Quite a lot of people were doing dungeons which are not able/willing/whatever to raid.
These players are left behind and the game is an even worse situation now.
I agree that content as raids are needed and healthy if done right.
But currently I’m under the impression that raids have replaced new fractals/dungeons or other similar content which adress a wider audience than raids – and I don’t think this is healthy for the game.
I also think that it’s plain stupid to release something like a legendary armour for raids with

We got more fractals and fractal reworks since raid development started than we got the entire time before.
It is also plain stupid that legendary weapons require mostly open world, but that seems fine because you play it right? How does your WvW player completes a HoT legendary?

Astralporing.1957:

….

Scipio.3204:

…

-snip- Not everything in this game has to cater to your needs.

This statement is flawed in the product-consumer relationship. “This game was not created for you” only after the consumer has bought the game brought guild wars 1 to its knees. In other words, it may even be false advertisement although I can’t be kitten d to find the exact phrase in the advertisement for it.

TexZero.7910:

I’d like to call shenanigans (for lack of a better word here) on these statements.

We have had 1 raid roughly every 6 months.
General PvE gets 2 story updates in that same time frame which comes with the following amount of instanced content
- Atleast 2 if not 3 story instances per update (6 instances there alone)
- Potentially more if there’s also a fractal update
- A guaranteed new MAP. Meaning 2 per raid update cycle.

The “casual” crowd has plenty to do with content and that’s even before touching the near 50 achievements they get in that same time frame.

Additionally, i have to entirely disagree about raids being designed to “Shut Out” people. They have a minimum barrier to entry that is, be geared and know your specific role. This is literally the same barrier used for open world PvE.

In this context I’m referring to repeatable small group instanced PvE content. Dungeons and Fractals. Perhaps I could have been clearer. As such, the story doesn’t count and neither do any of the open world maps.

There is, or at least used to be a sizeable player base I would describe as ‘moderate’. We’re the ones who did a bit of everything but primarily focused on daily dungeon tours and the occasional mid level fractals. You know, content that’s more engaging than the open world but isn’t so demanding that you can’t just join a pug and figure things out along the way.

Jahroots.6791:

You know, content that’s more engaging than the open world but isn’t so demanding that you can’t just join a pug and figure things out along the way.

Nothing at all stopping you from doing this in a Raid. Even more so if you/your group is going in blind. Nothing in raids is so astronomically difficult that the average gamer given enough time and practice cannot learn it. It comes directly down to the same thing the dungeon days came down to, join/make a group for your own pacing.

Astralporing.1957:

Oh come on, part of the stated design goals was that this is a content most players should be unable to run. Not “not interested in”, but “unable”. Yes, they were designed to shut out majority of the playerbase. How well they are fulfilling that goal is a separate issue (and one we apparently don’t agree on), but the goal itself is not up for argument.

You mean the very design goal that was stated at PAX South where in up on stage Colin stated “If you’re good enough at your class, you’ll be able to raid”. Yeah i remember that part too was there live when he said it. Still seems to be the case that if you understand your class and can do some pattern recognition you’d be more than capable of raiding.

Roxanne.6140:

Miellyn.6847:

Jockum.1385:

Vinceman.4572:

-snip-

For many players the situation is still the same. Quite a lot of people were doing dungeons which are not able/willing/whatever to raid.
These players are left behind and the game is an even worse situation now.
I agree that content as raids are needed and healthy if done right.
But currently I’m under the impression that raids have replaced new fractals/dungeons or other similar content which adress a wider audience than raids – and I don’t think this is healthy for the game.
I also think that it’s plain stupid to release something like a legendary armour for raids with

We got more fractals and fractal reworks since raid development started than we got the entire time before.
It is also plain stupid that legendary weapons require mostly open world, but that seems fine because you play it right? How does your WvW player completes a HoT legendary?

Astralporing.1957:

….

Scipio.3204:

…

-snip- Not everything in this game has to cater to your needs.

This statement is flawed in the product-consumer relationship. “This game was not created for you” only after the consumer has bought the game brought guild wars 1 to its knees. In other words, it may even be false advertisement although I can’t be kitten d to find the exact phrase in the advertisement for it.

No it’s not. You are not the only one playing this game. It doesn’t revolve around you. Not every content needs adjustments that you can play it or you need to tweak every content that it is fun for everyone, so we need also a hard mode living story.
What about people that are not good as you? An easier mode just for them? It never stops.

Well, if you think it’s perfectly fine that the content for you was created at the expense of content for me, you can’t really say that it’s wrong if the opposite happens.

Yes I can say that. The majority of the game already caters to you. Raids have the slowest development cycle and you don’t know if you had gotten more content. The history of the raid team strongly suggests that it would have changed nothing for you.

Jahroots.6791:

Man, it’s never been about being catered to. It’s about not being shut out. Raids were intentionally designed so that many players would not be able to enjoy or even complete them. Other game modes have their niche as well, without being so designed that they’d be a pain in the kitten for players who aren’t necessarily a part of it to take part.

And of course most people accept that this is typical of raids across MMOs, but it’s an issue because casual and moderate players aren’t offered fresh instanced content in equal or at least similar measures.

You are not shut out. Create your own group and raid. There are no prerequisites. Many people complained about dungeon difficulty during the early days and it stopped as they learned them. Raids are not that hard gameplaywise. You just need more organisation before you start.

Easy content is much faster consumed than hard content. You clear it faster and it wears off faster after you cleared it. Even if you offer the same amount people with the easy content feel that they got less.

Jahroots.6791:

You know, content that’s more engaging than the open world but isn’t so demanding that you can’t just join a pug and figure things out along the way.

I’m wondering now. Fractured was released in 2013 and for 2 full years there was no new instanced content added to the game at all. No dungeons, no fractals, no nothing. What type of content were you (and other people who dislike the open world) doing during those 2 years in this game? Taking a break?

maddoctor.2738:

Jahroots.6791:

You know, content that’s more engaging than the open world but isn’t so demanding that you can’t just join a pug and figure things out along the way.

I’m wondering now. Fractured was released in 2013 and for 2 full years there was no new instanced content added to the game at all. No dungeons, no fractals, no nothing. What type of content were you (and other people who dislike the open world) doing during those 2 years in this game? Taking a break?

Talking about my guild / group of friends here.
We did sPvP team queues for about a year, daily dungeon tours later or on as a part of the old and great dungeon community and some Fractals. We took small breaks while we decided to try some other MMORGS.
Most of us didn’t like the Open World back then and that hardly changed.

Ashen.2907:

If I had legendary armor I would reskin it, and free up an absolute ton of storage space for my main.

Its a tier of gear. One that can only be earned in one aspect of the game. Comparing a tier with actual functionality to a cosmetic skin is more than a bit off.

That said, I argued for raids having an exclusive legendary armor skin set prior to release when it seemed likely that raid legendary armor would be the first set, with other to be possibly released for other game modes later, not the only legendary armor set.

I fully understand that but it’s a bit fishy to come into the Fractals, Dungeons & Raids forum in a thread called “Easy mode raids” while several raiders have already admitted that they would be okay with an easier version without rewards (also in other threads) and continue to ask for legendary armor.

The only conclusion one can make from this process is people want to get access to the rewards via such easy mode.
If it’s really a concern for you to acquire the armor, form resistance and group together in the appropriate subforum (WvW or anything else) or reddit and show Anet that you are a big conglomerate of players and insist on your wish.
I’m saying this because you obviously don’t want to play raids and earn the rewards like we do. That’s fine, but don’t expect content you aren’t motivated for to be tuned down to only get those rewards.

Vinceman.4572:

The only conclusion one can make from this process is people want to get access to the rewards via such easy mode.

“some people” – definitely not all, and most likely not even the majority.

Most of the people pushing for this that I have seen and talked to understand that lesser difficulty should mean significantly lesser reward.

Vinceman.4572:

Ashen.2907:

If I had legendary armor I would reskin it, and free up an absolute ton of storage space for my main.

Its a tier of gear. One that can only be earned in one aspect of the game. Comparing a tier with actual functionality to a cosmetic skin is more than a bit off.

That said, I argued for raids having an exclusive legendary armor skin set prior to release when it seemed likely that raid legendary armor would be the first set, with other to be possibly released for other game modes later, not the only legendary armor set.

I fully understand that but it’s a bit fishy to come into the Fractals, Dungeons & Raids forum in a thread called “Easy mode raids” while several raiders have already admitted that they would be okay with an easier version without rewards (also in other threads) and continue to ask for legendary armor.

The only conclusion one can make from this process is people want to get access to the rewards via such easy mode.
If it’s really a concern for you to acquire the armor, form resistance and group together in the appropriate subforum (WvW or anything else) or reddit and show Anet that you are a big conglomerate of players and insist on your wish.
I’m saying this because you obviously don’t want to play raids and earn the rewards like we do. That’s fine, but don’t expect content you aren’t motivated for to be tuned down to only get those rewards.

I am going to live without legendary armor because I do not raid. Content specific rewards that act as trophies to show one’s accomplishments in that content fill a valuable role in an MMO’s overall reward scheme in my opinion.

I do, however, hold out hope that Anet will revisit their apparent decision to not introduce different legendary armor skins for other game modes.

My point in responding to you initially, as stated, was that comparing a skin in one game mode to an entire tier of armor in another was unbalanced. You can, of course, choose to invent whatever conclusions you like, but my point was very specific and very narrowly stated.

Ashen.2907:

I am going to live without legendary armor because I do not raid. Content specific rewards that act as trophies to show one’s accomplishments in that content fill a valuable role in an MMO’s overall reward scheme in my opinion.

I do, however, hold out hope that Anet will revisit their apparent decision to not introduce different legendary armor skins for other game modes.

My point in responding to you initially, as stated, was that comparing a skin in one game mode to an entire tier of armor in another was unbalanced. You can, of course, choose to invent whatever conclusions you like, but my point was very specific and very narrowly stated.

And nevertheless you came into that specific thread “Easy mode raids”.

Vinceman.4572:

Ashen.2907:

I am going to live without legendary armor because I do not raid. Content specific rewards that act as trophies to show one’s accomplishments in that content fill a valuable role in an MMO’s overall reward scheme in my opinion.

I do, however, hold out hope that Anet will revisit their apparent decision to not introduce different legendary armor skins for other game modes.

My point in responding to you initially, as stated, was that comparing a skin in one game mode to an entire tier of armor in another was unbalanced. You can, of course, choose to invent whatever conclusions you like, but my point was very specific and very narrowly stated.

And nevertheless you came into that specific thread “Easy mode raids”.

This is not a rebuttal. Many posters read threads wherein contrary positions compete for the entertainment value. One need not be “for” or “against,” simply interested. Anyone posting on forums should expect to have assertions challenged no matter the motives of the poster who finds fault with them for being in the thread in the first place.

Vinceman.4572:

These “quite a lot” were only doing dungeons because the gold reward was in a decent spot compared to hardcore map farmings (SW, Cursed Shore etc.). After the nerf, nobody ran them. Although it got reverted and the rewards for dungeon is fine or even better than before, still almost nobody is playing them which is sad.

I was not refering to “farmers” which will always farm the most rewarding content. I was refering to guilds, teams, friends which enjoy playing content together. But you are probably right here: those players have (mostly) left GW2 long ago, GW2 is not a game for casual teams. GW2 is either “hardcore teams” or “open world”.

Vinceman.4572:

Like Miellyn said, we got lots of more revamps and new fractals than before raids were introduced.

Would you be ok with Anet stopping releasing new raids and only making revamps for the next 4 years?
New content can’t be replaced by some reworks.
We got 2 new fractals since 2013. That’s not much. Imagine a single new raid wing – which is added in 2021.

Vinceman.4572:

The thing is, I can accept that, I relinquish. It doesn’t make the game worse for me or I feel inferior because it’s most likely that I will never even obtain one single piece

Just see all those conflicts about raids, easymode, raid rewards, legendary armour. These conflicts were fueled by Anet with their decision. Any manager (or parent) knows it. You can’t give half the team a pay rise for no reason and ignore the other half. You can’t give one child an icecream and let the others watch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aee1WzDBPp4

Miellyn.6847:

We got more fractals[…]
It is also plain stupid that legendary weapons require mostly open world, but that seems fine because you play it right?

1) So GW2 has 3 fractals? 1 in 2012 and two new ones?
2)It took me months to do my second world completion this year. I play since release. A lot. I am (obviously) not playing GW2 for its open world content. I do play open world content, but that’s no reason for me to spend money on a game. It’s like watching a kittenty TV show, just out of boredom. I would be fine if Anet stops complety releasing open world content.
3)raids are not accessible. There is no “guaranteed success”, it’s similar as reaching a good PVP rank as requirement for legendary armour. Open world is “only farming”, there is some kind of “guaranteed success”. But y, imho should every modus got its own legendary backpack and armour. And maybe also weapons, idc.

maddoctor.2738:

I’m wondering now. Fractured was released in 2013 and for 2 full years there was no new instanced content added to the game at all. No dungeons, no fractals, no nothing. What type of content were you (and other people who dislike the open world) doing during those 2 years in this game?

Playing dungeons and fractals. After a while they got boring. Some went into raids, some went into WoW, some idle around and wait if the next expansion is adding content or no content as HoT again.

IndigoSundown.5419:

This is not a rebuttal. Many posters read threads wherein contrary positions compete for the entertainment value. One need not be “for” or “against,” simply interested. Anyone posting on forums should expect to have assertions challenged no matter the motives of the poster who finds fault with them for being in the thread in the first place.

That’s no problem for me but it’s funny that the discussion always turned from “Give easier raids.” to “Let’s talk about access of leggy armor a.k.a. give it as well.” in the same thread by the same people.

Jockum.1385:

Just see all those conflicts about raids, easymode, raid rewards, legendary armour. These conflicts were fueled by Anet with their decision. Any manager (or parent) knows it. You can’t give half the team a pay rise for no reason and ignore the other half. You can’t give one child an icecream and let the others watch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aee1WzDBPp4

I don’t see “all those conflicts” because we are not talking about a majority here nor at reddit or elsewhere. If there really are so many players wanting the armor we would have seen more qq and a broad playerbase standing up against Anet’s decision.

Vinceman.4572:

IndigoSundown.5419:

This is not a rebuttal. Many posters read threads wherein contrary positions compete for the entertainment value. One need not be “for” or “against,” simply interested. Anyone posting on forums should expect to have assertions challenged no matter the motives of the poster who finds fault with them for being in the thread in the first place.

That’s no problem for me but it’s funny that the discussion always turned from “Give easier raids.” to “Let’s talk about access of leggy armor a.k.a. give it as well.” in the same thread by the same people.

That does not surprise me. The number of players who play MMO’s just for fun is vastly smaller than those who play for rewards. Content alone cannot maintain its allure for the many replays the developer needs to see.

If I combine that understanding with the belief that ANet would not put regular raid rewards into easier versions of raids, then I come to the conclusion that easy mode raids would be a waste of development time because they would not have the staying power needed. That would mean that resources were taken from other projects — whether regular raids or other PvE — to make content that will be in the end as much of a waste of time as story dungeons were. Too much lost for little to no gain.

I think there was and is a lot of qq. I also think that most casuals are not going to complain about lack of content or about lacking rewards for other game modes. Some casuals do use reddit/forums, but I think they are vastly underrepresented.
I am also not sure if players still care enough about GW2 to cause a kittenstorm. The game is quite old and maybe people just go on instead of wasting time with complaints.

Jockum.1385:

Would you be ok with Anet stopping releasing new raids and only making revamps for the next 4 years?
New content can’t be replaced by some reworks.
We got 2 new fractals since 2013. That’s not much. Imagine a single new raid wing – which is added in 2021.

Did you ever thought about that fractals take so long to develop because of the difficulty tiers?

Miellyn.6847:

We got more fractals[…]
It is also plain stupid that legendary weapons require mostly open world, but that seems fine because you play it right?

1) So GW2 has 3 fractals? 1 in 2012 and two new ones?
2)It took me months to do my second world completion this year. I play since release. A lot. I am (obviously) not playing GW2 for its open world content. I do play open world content, but that’s no reason for me to spend money on a game. It’s like watching a kittenty TV show, just out of boredom. I would be fine if Anet stops complety releasing open world content.
3)raids are not accessible. There is no “guaranteed success”, it’s similar as reaching a good PVP rank as requirement for legendary armour. Open world is “only farming”, there is some kind of “guaranteed success”. But y, imho should every modus got its own legendary backpack and armour. And maybe also weapons, idc.

1) Excluding release fractals obviously…

2) And because easy content is boring we need to bring down raids to the same level? Maybe you should first ask all easy mode promoters how the easy mode should look like before demanding it or you will be disappointed if it ever comes.

3) So dungeons and fractals are also not accessible because they have not guaranteed success? Or HoT meta events? Everything that can fail is not accessible?
What is stopping you from raiding? There are no entry barriers, they are more accessible than fractals.

Vinceman.4572:

Ashen.2907:

I am going to live without legendary armor because I do not raid. Content specific rewards that act as trophies to show one’s accomplishments in that content fill a valuable role in an MMO’s overall reward scheme in my opinion.

I do, however, hold out hope that Anet will revisit their apparent decision to not introduce different legendary armor skins for other game modes.

My point in responding to you initially, as stated, was that comparing a skin in one game mode to an entire tier of armor in another was unbalanced. You can, of course, choose to invent whatever conclusions you like, but my point was very specific and very narrowly stated.

And nevertheless you came into that specific thread “Easy mode raids”.

Yep, because I have expressed disagreement with the idea of easy mode for raids in the past, on multiple occasions, and have followed the general topic since raids were first implemented. I saw your unbalanced comparison and commented on it.

I at least glance through most threads in these forums and comment in many (but obviously not all or even most).

Jockum.1385:

I think there was and is a lot of qq. I also think that most casuals are not going to complain about lack of content or about lacking rewards for other game modes. Some casuals do use reddit/forums, but I think they are vastly underrepresented.
I am also not sure if players still care enough about GW2 to cause a kittenstorm. The game is quite old and maybe people just go on instead of wasting time with complaints.

I still haven’t seen the “lot”. And as long as there are only a few players complaining there is no need to change the system because there is always someone complaining no matter what was implemented.
In the end I’m very happy and thankful that in this case things will stay like they are.

IndigoSundown.5419:

If I combine that understanding with the belief that ANet would not put regular raid rewards into easier versions of raids, then I come to the conclusion that easy mode raids would be a waste of development time because they would not have the staying power needed. That would mean that resources were taken from other projects — whether regular raids or other PvE — to make content that will be in the end as much of a waste of time as story dungeons were. Too much lost for little to no gain.

Exactly. If they add multiple tiers of Raids or an easy mode, it needs a reason to exist other than “do this for training”. Many want an easy mode to train for the harder version of raids but in the end a tier of difficulty for training purposes is a waste of resources and development time.

Miellyn.6847:

Jockum.1385:

Would you be ok with Anet stopping releasing new raids and only making revamps for the next 4 years?
New content can’t be replaced by some reworks.
We got 2 new fractals since 2013. That’s not much. Imagine a single new raid wing – which is added in 2021.

Did you ever thought about that fractals take so long to develop because of the difficulty tiers?

No. It’s like that because there was no fractal team at all throughout the majority of the game (the five fractals from the fractured release were made by LS team). It’s creation is relatively recent. And it seems to receive less attention and be able to draw on less overall resources than the raid team.

Miellyn.6847:

2) And because easy content is boring we need to bring down raids to the same level?

Again bringing up as an argument something that’s not true. Noone is asking about making the current mode raids easier. We’re talking about a seperate difficulty tier.

Miellyn.6847:

3) So dungeons and fractals are also not accessible because they have not guaranteed success?

In a casual guild group approach he’s speaking of? Yeah, pretty much guaranteed. In the last 4 years i failed a fractal maybe 2-3 times. The last time i failed a dungeon was at my first attempt at the Twilight Assault, which was during the week it got released. The main difference between a skilled hardcore run and a casual one is not succes rate, but completion time.

maddoctor.2738:

Then why do you complain that the game doesn’t have instanced content to do NOW?

And how do you know he wasn’t complaining before?

maddoctor.2738:

Exactly. If they add multiple tiers of Raids or an easy mode, it needs a reason to exist other than “do this for training”. Many want an easy mode to train for the harder version of raids but in the end a tier of difficulty for training purposes is a waste of resources and development time.

Oh, i agree. That’s why the rewardless option is no option at all. The mode is needed for reasons other than rewards, but it does need rewards in order to not end up abandoned. Which is why the discussion about rewards is going to surface eventually in any easy mode thread.

Astralporing.1957:

Oh, i agree. That’s why the rewardless option is no option at all. The mode is needed for reasons other than rewards, but it does need rewards in order to not end up abandoned. Which is why the discussion about rewards is going to surface eventually in any easy mode thread.

And what is your opinion in the level of those rewards? I’m asking seriously because raid rewards at their current state are awful compared to almost every other content in the game.
You get a weekly reward and afterwards the replay value is zero due to getting 3 loot bag with trash.
So, if you hand out some decent loot to easier modes/tiered levels you have to increase the rewards for the normal mode as well as the challenge mode a lot which will of course drive people into farming raids and shift the game into a direction I’m 100% sure you wouldn’t like to a lesser extent.

Astralporing.1957:

Oh, i agree. That’s why the rewardless option is no option at all. The mode is needed for reasons other than rewards, but it does need rewards in order to not end up abandoned. Which is why the discussion about rewards is going to surface eventually in any easy mode thread.

An option that can work without rewards:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Raids-need-a-solo-story-mode/first

Any kind of content, that requires more than one person to complete, needs rewards to keep it active. However, this is a problem with so many other parts of the game:
Try to do LS2 story achievements now and you won’t easily find a group to do so
Try to do Migraine achievement and you will find out it’s not very easy to find a group for it
Try to do any of the Raid achievements (and CM in Wing 4) and you will see that it’s not as easy to get a group for those either

The problem with one-time rewards isn’t something new to an easy mode for Raids but something that plagued the game for years, even since release, I think everyone should remember the old Arah Story mode.

Astralporing.1957:

Miellyn.6847:

2) And because easy content is boring we need to bring down raids to the same level?

Again bringing up as an argument something that’s not true. Noone is asking about making the current mode raids easier. We’re talking about a seperate difficulty tier.

It doesn’t matter if it’s a new tier or the existing content. Why do we need more easy content if easy content is boring?

3) So dungeons and fractals are also not accessible because they have not guaranteed success?

In a casual guild group approach he’s speaking of? Yeah, pretty much guaranteed. In the last 4 years i failed a fractal maybe 2-3 times. The last time i failed a dungeon was at my first attempt at the Twilight Assault, which was during the week it got released. The main difference between a skilled hardcore run and a casual one is not succes rate, but completion time.

And I haven’t failed to complete a raid wing in over a year. It’s just a matter of perspective. Fact is that unless it’s an event without a fail condition, there is no guaranteed success in any PvE area depending on the group that runs it. What makes you so important that the difficulty should be centered around you? What about players that are not as good? If you lower it too much you won’t play it as it is boring for you unless the rewards are overtuned.

maddoctor.2738:

Exactly. If they add multiple tiers of Raids or an easy mode, it needs a reason to exist other than “do this for training”. Many want an easy mode to train for the harder version of raids but in the end a tier of difficulty for training purposes is a waste of resources and development time.

Oh, i agree. That’s why the rewardless option is no option at all. The mode is needed for reasons other than rewards, but it does need rewards in order to not end up abandoned. Which is why the discussion about rewards is going to surface eventually in any easy mode thread.

Raid rewards aren’t that good to begin with after the first kill of the week.
If you go for T2 or T3 Fractal difficulty you deserve T2-3 Fractal loot.

The problem with one-time rewards isn’t something new to an easy mode for Raids but something that plagued the game for years, even since release, I think everyone should remember the old Arah Story mode.

That’s nothing GW2 specific, it happens in every game.

Jockum.1385:

I was not refering to “farmers” which will always farm the most rewarding content. I was refering to guilds, teams, friends which enjoy playing content together. But you are probably right here: those players have (mostly) left GW2 long ago, GW2 is not a game for casual teams. GW2 is either “hardcore teams” or “open world”.

Depends on your definition of “hardcore”. I raid in a static guild team every week. This makes us pretty hardcore compared to the open world players, but I do not consider us “hardcore” because we’re nowhere near the real hardcore guilds like [qT] and [SC]. It’s all relative. You’re looking at a spectrum and you’re saying it’s all either black or white. It isn’t.

Jockum.1385:

Just see all those conflicts about raids, easymode, raid rewards, legendary armour. These conflicts were fueled by Anet with their decision. Any manager (or parent) knows it. You can’t give half the team a pay rise for no reason and ignore the other half. You can’t give one child an icecream and let the others watch.

The thing is, you need the proper ice cream to keep some of the children interested. Some, because you can’t possibly interest all of them with this new content. It is targeted and designed toward the more invested ones. Imagine giving a child some hard task and rewarding it with ice cream, then giving that same ice cream to another child who didn’t have to do anything.

Astralporing.1957:

Oh come on, part of the stated design goals was that this is a content most players should be unable to run. Not “not interested in”, but “unable”. Yes, they were designed to shut out majority of the playerbase. How well they are fulfilling that goal is a separate issue (and one we apparently don’t agree on), but the goal itself is not up for argument.

Game crashes if person is unworthy?

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Astralporing.1957:

Oh come on, part of the stated design goals was that this is a content most players should be unable to run. Not “not interested in”, but “unable”. Yes, they were designed to shut out majority of the playerbase. How well they are fulfilling that goal is a separate issue (and one we apparently don’t agree on), but the goal itself is not up for argument.

Game crashes if person is unworthy?

No need. Person dies if person doesn’t git gud is enough of a barrier.

Vinceman.4572:

Astralporing.1957:

Oh, i agree. That’s why the rewardless option is no option at all. The mode is needed for reasons other than rewards, but it does need rewards in order to not end up abandoned. Which is why the discussion about rewards is going to surface eventually in any easy mode thread.

And what is your opinion in the level of those rewards? I’m asking seriously because raid rewards at their current state are awful compared to almost every other content in the game.

Oh, i agree about that as well, which i’ve said many times already. The rewards for normal mode should most certainly be increased.

Vinceman.4572:

So, if you hand out some decent loot to easier modes/tiered levels you have to increase the rewards for the normal mode as well as the challenge mode a lot which will of course drive people into farming raids

People are already farming raids. As long as the weekly lockout remains, the situation is not likely to change all that much – all people able to do normal mode bosses are already trying to do as close to a full clear every week as they can. Can’t really get any further than that.

maddoctor.2738:

Astralporing.1957:

Oh, i agree. That’s why the rewardless option is no option at all. The mode is needed for reasons other than rewards, but it does need rewards in order to not end up abandoned. Which is why the discussion about rewards is going to surface eventually in any easy mode thread.

An option that can work without rewards:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Raids-need-a-solo-story-mode/first

Any kind of content, that requires more than one person to complete, needs rewards to keep it active. However, this is a problem with so many other parts of the game:
Try to do LS2 story achievements now and you won’t easily find a group to do so
Try to do Migraine achievement and you will find out it’s not very easy to find a group for it
Try to do any of the Raid achievements (and CM in Wing 4) and you will see that it’s not as easy to get a group for those either

The problem with one-time rewards isn’t something new to an easy mode for Raids but something that plagued the game for years, even since release, I think everyone should remember the old Arah Story mode.

How is what i was saying any different than this? Yes, the new mode would need a reasonable, repeatable reward if it’s going to stay relevant.

Miellyn.6847:

It doesn’t matter if it’s a new tier or the existing content. Why do we need more easy content if easy content is boring?

It’s boring for you. We’ve already agreed that the new mode wouldn’t be for you though, so that’s nothing new.

Miellyn.6847:

What makes you so important that the difficulty should be centered around you?

What makes you so important?

Miellyn.6847:

What about players that are not as good? If you lower it too much you won’t play it as it is boring for you unless the rewards are overtuned.

I’m not against fractal-style difficulty tiering, offering something to those less skilled than i am… or more skilled than you are.

Miellyn.6847:

If you go for T2 or T3 Fractal difficulty you deserve T2-3 Fractal loot.

In fractals, it’s for the most part the same loot, just acquired at a slower rate.

Astralporing.1957:

How is what i was saying any different than this? Yes, the new mode would need a reasonable, repeatable reward if it’s going to stay relevant.

First, I offered a version that does not require rewards, as discussed in that other thread.
Second, I’m showing many other aspects of the game that have the same problem, that is: no incentive to re-run them.
Perhaps finding a solution for those other parts of the game will lead to an answer to a possible other Raid version

Astralporing.1957:

Oh, i agree about that as well, which i’ve said many times already. The rewards for normal mode should most certainly be increased.

Still waiting for your well-defined suggestions.

Astralporing.1957:

People are already farming raids. As long as the weekly lockout remains, the situation is not likely to change all that much – all people able to do normal mode bosses are already trying to do as close to a full clear every week as they can. Can’t really get any further than that.

It’s not farming, it’s killing them once and then you’re done for the week. Farming would be doing it over and over again every day for hours by the ability to get loot for every further kill.
If you don’t allow that people would still not run easy mode – maybe once for the lore – because it’s not worth to do so. Probably, the easy mode reward has to have the reward structure of the actual normal mode for players to play it weekly resulting in a tremendous loot increase for normal mode which would affect the economy too much.
Please tell me values because it’s not acceptable to give 4g for wing 4 easy mode and just 8g for the usual mode. That difference between both would be too small regarding the effort increase from easy to normal.

Astralporing.1957:

It’s boring for you. We’ve already agreed that the new mode wouldn’t be for you though, so that’s nothing new.

I answered someone else who complained about how easy content becomes boring. It was never addressed towards you.

What makes you so important?

You could ask ArenaNet why they designed raids with a certain audience in mind and not another audience or tiered like fractals. They think it is important to cater to a certain playerbase.

I’m not against fractal-style difficulty tiering, offering something to those less skilled than i am… or more skilled than you are.

Which would just make it bigger fractals with more people. And even longer development cycles, 8 months between Wing 3 and 4. Wing 4 is already 5 months old and most likely won’t get another raid before the expansion which will hit in 4-6 months.

In fractals, it’s for the most part the same loot, just acquired at a slower rate.

And things like the legendary are impossible to get.

Miellyn.6847:

2) And because easy content is boring we need to bring down raids to the same level? Maybe you should first ask all easy mode promoters how the easy mode should look like before demanding it or you will be disappointed if it ever comes.

I’m not really a fan of an easymode. I’d prefer to see maybe 5-10 new dungeons each year instead.

Anet has to make a decision which kind of content they want to deliver. No new easy teamcontent? Then casual groups should leave the game and Anet should also be honest about it.
But I also don’t think that a good implemented easymode would cause much troubles. Players also prefer T4 fractals over T1. I don’t know enough about raids to make a good suggestion. And actually I also don’t care enough about an easymode, because I’d prefer “easier content” instead of an easymode.

Miellyn.6847:

So dungeons and fractals are also not accessible because they have not guaranteed success? Or HoT meta events? Everything that can fail is not accessible?
What is stopping you from raiding? There are no entry barriers, they are more accessible than fractals.

You can enter dungeons and fractals with 5 fullsoldier, fullsigil warriors which are only using autoattack and succeed. The same is not possible in raids. The entry barrier is the much higher skill requirement + builds/equipment requirements. You can start fractals on a low level and slowly improve step by step – by “succeeding”. Low level fractals were easier than most dungeons btw. You can’t do the same in raids, there is no raid level which you can climb up step by step.

I can easily pick up 4 other random people without knowing anything about them (PUGs) and we can do a dungeon or fractal. Maybe not always, but most of the times. It takes more time, might be slow and painfull – but it works. For raids you have to be way more picky. Some player even claim that finding 10 people for raids is difficult. No, it’s not. There are hundreds of players idling around in LA and you could easily fill up a 10 people team. Finding 10 players which are able to raid is the problem. Not finding 10 players.

Miellyn.6847:

It doesn’t matter if it’s a new tier or the existing content. Why do we need more easy content if easy content is boring?

There are players which enjoy easier content. Not everyone searchs for challenging content in a videogame, some people just want to relax. Not everyone is able to do raids, some players are already struggling with dungeons or low level fractals.
Without easy content GW2 has nothing to offer for these players. I personally think these players are the majority btw. Usually there is only a small group which does the most difficult content, many players are very casual. I think the current focus on more difficult content is a bit wildstar like and I am not convinced that this is a good idea.
I prefer the GW1 way: an expansion with ~20 casual storymissions and two raids. Translated into GW2 and into GW2s slow release “speed”: maybe a raidwing each year and 5-10 dungeons/fractals.

Jockum.1385:

You can enter dungeons and fractals with 5 fullsoldier, fullsigil warriors which are only using autoattack and succeed.

Those guys must be exceptionally good then
I’d love to see those 5 full soldier warriors using only auto attacks defeat Giganticus Lupicus, or any Arah boss for that matter.
Or do Volcanic Fractal at T4 (or even T3)
This argument that dungeons / fractals can be done easily is old and is not accurate at all. Can it be done? Yes. But usually it requires skill. Those who can clear dungeons/fractals even on trash builds and/or only using auto attacks, are probably also successful raiders. You know, doing the exact same thing in Raids too. Like 10 random Guardian VG kills, or solo Cairn and so on.