Guild Wars 2

As said the title, enrage in raid is not punishful at all. When the timer hit 0, it should insta wipe all the squad with an attack or something.

Some bosses can be solo’ed or cheesed because the enrage timer is too generous. People don’t care about enrage timer at some bosses like Cairn, Vale guardian, and such because they can outheal or avoid the damage. It shouldn’t possible for me to be alive with my druid/temp aura at Cairn during the enrage (and can solo it even if it takes time), it shouldn’t happen and it’s not even hard to do.

If you want the raid to be the content the “more challenging”, think about better enrage mechanics. Take an example of FFXIV where enrage kill instantly the raid when it hit 0.

Raids are casual enough no need to make it even easier with trash and useless enrage time.

why shouldn’t it be possible? The point of the enrage timer is merely to prevent people from effortlessly clearing the raid with tanky builds.

If you can survive through enrage, congrats, you know how to play properly. But it isn’t easy to do (measuring difficulty relative to clearing the boss with dps)

If you want to make the raids harder, enrage isn’t where you should be looking.

And why exactly can’t we look at enrage? Everything in raids is too easy atm, that includes enrage mechanics.

Instead of, you know, asking A-Net to fix the ways that allow soloing bosses like Slothasor poison affecting stealthed targets OR have the arena perma reveal (Thiefs rejoice)…

nah, just punish everyone worse than me so I can feel better about myself. Its not like as if the majority of bosses:

Vale Guardian
Gorseval
Sabetha

Keep Construct
Xera

Mursaat Overseer
Samarog
Deimos

already have basically instawipe/extremely punishing enrages (i.E. VG/Samarog being able to one-shot players past enrage, Gorseval, Xera, Mursaat Overseer wiping the raid)

Solely the bosses of Wing 2 and Cairn (normal mode) have lenient enrage conditions but then again Sloth and Matthias are mechanic heavy and should your reflects die at the latter then you are screwed either way.

Whats the point of this Thread?

Khyan.7039:

As said the title, enrage in raid is not punishful at all. When the timer hit 0, it should insta wipe all the squad with an attack or something.

Some bosses can be solo’ed or cheesed because the enrage timer is too generous. People don’t care about enrage timer at some bosses like Cairn, Vale guardian, and such because they can outheal or avoid the damage. It shouldn’t possible for me to be alive with my druid/temp aura at Cairn during the enrage (and can solo it even if it takes time), it shouldn’t happen and it’s not even hard to do.

If you want the raid to be the content the “more challenging”, think about better enrage mechanics. Take an example of FFXIV where enrage kill instantly the raid when it hit 0.

Raids are casual enough no need to make it even easier with trash and useless enrage time.

What are you really complaining about here?

If it is because you crave a greater challenge then play something less forgiving than the build you run and you should feel an instantaneous difference in challenge. You have come to the natural evolution of playing something long enough. The crushing majority of the community already find raids way too hostile for their taste in every sense the word can take. Why should a wall to wall solution be used if the problem can be solved by changing something on you alone?

However, if it is because your satisfaction depends on others failing so you feel like you belong into something special, I’m not too sure what kind of sympathy you expect to get from people here…

Does people triumphing over the baddy happen so often after the timer is spent? I’ve personally saw it once, maybe twice and it is ok. I mean, if it wasn’t suppose to be possible to manage a win past the timer why even bother with it? It seems you want to tackle something that touches an insignificant portion of the population an insignificant amount of time with a universal black and white solution to either protect your challenge or your ego…

IMO, if anything should be done on a more universal level it has to be regarding builds not timer consequences. Stupid perma stealth gimmick comes to mind as it is a plague that touches far more than just one game mode…

For an alternative perspective: the most frustrating wipes in WoW raiding were when the boss was close to zero, and hit enrage. The game of “can you kite long enough for dots to tick it down” was never a happy one, even if it felt amazing that one time you won the lottery. This was definitely how many first time kills at the top end happened…

A more generous enrage is actually nice. (…but this is definitely a personal taste thing, and strongly influenced by your degree of experience.)

You can already choose to make enrage more punishing: if you the timer counts down to zero, type “/gg”.

The enrage mechanic makes more sense the way Anet applies it. A boss should never become more powerful and wipe away at the entire party after taking what amount to literally millions of fireballs and scratches. Whereas here, what happens mechanically can be justified by what happens to felines and such: you cornered the boss for a few minutes, he worked up an adrenaline rush and is now giving his last shot at surviving (rather than pulling a deus ex machina and sending you back to lobby).

Whether or not it makes more sense this way is debateable, but it is a better implementation. Hard wipes after enrage timers expire have a place yes, but at the same time having every enrage timer cause a hard wipe does nothing but force DPS oriented groups. We would never see these unique groups (like 10 support tempests, 10 naked guardians, 3-4 man kills etc…) kill bosses if all of the enrage timers ended with a hard wipe.

I can understand the frustration at seeing someone solo a raid boss, but to me its impressive. Extremely impressive that they managed to participate in such a long fight without making any mistakes. Yes, exploits need to be patched, and some builds need to be brought in line, but other than that its just downright impressive when someone solos a raid boss.

Enrage is just a flawed mechanism in itself that could only exist in gamelike environment and break any kind of imersion. Logically, any kind of human, creature, demon or whatever would just run away the moment they find themself in a dead end. More than that, It’s illogical that something could have a huge surge of strenght after having being bitten to death by other things.

Honnestly, you ve been beaten, you bleed, you got broken limb, you’re tired… The most logical answer is that you get out of here. What nonsense is this that you stay, have a surge of power and wipe the ant that you were struggling against just before?

The last phase of any boss should be a harsh struggle of the raid to avoid having the boss getting out of the arena and maybe cutting off the way out in it’s escape, making you unable to pursue your journey.

Can’t tell whether OP is serious or…

Want harder encounters? Do CMs, nobody stops you.
I think current raids are already inaccessible to majority of the gw2 player base so they are everything but casual. On most bosses enrage is basically instawipe anyway, so i don’t see why the complains.

It bothers you that people can solo some bosses (within 4 hours mind you lol)? Why? Why is it a problem?

Their excuse was that ppl just got better at the game because of the previous raid. If thats the case the next raid should be a step up from the last or ppl will just get bored. This is supposed to be “the hardest pve content” not “the hardest pve content for the first times you do it and then its the same every release”

Even still, most fights should never hit enrage if everyone is doing what they should be. The only reason it’d hit enrage is if you’re messing up mechanics, or people are dying. Which then you need to look at who’s messing mechanics, and who’s not watching their own health. (Seriously, EVERYONE has a heal, use it if you’re taking too much damage)

So I really don’t get what the OP is saying about enrage not being punishing enough. You shouldn’t see it anyway. If you are, you’re not doing enough, and then the extra damage is just punishing enough.

The difficulty of raids shouldn’t be relying on enrage. It should be on challenging mechanics .. and different and new mechanics not just aoe on ground etc etc.. if the challenge of the game base on enrage timer then might as well instant kill all players when it hit zero. :P
It will be cool to hv a wing boss that allow two or three teams to go in and fight for the loot. Eg upon entering this instance team needs to beat a progression of raids boss. Similar to HA in gw1. Team that managed to scored most in the combined instance gets special loot. The battle can be say two team beat each other on getting most score in something say a run or fastest time to kill a boss etc. Some new mechanics not just our usual raid mechanics xD not talking about pvp it’s purely pve

People, no need to be hostile toward me. I never said I was bothered to see a player soloing a boss. I just personally think it shouldn’t be possible for a raid design. It’s not the same thing. Thus should be fixed for future contents.

Enrage change was just an idea. Probably a bad idea for some players and it’s fine. What I see is, there’s still a lot of bugs unfixed since a long time ago, so here a “quick” alternative.

@Cynz.9437 Thank you but I already did everything CM related.

And yes, I am serious. The enrage is forgiving most of the time on some encounters. I should add also, there is a lot of flaws in the design of some raid bosses, but most of the time it’s like bugs or things not intented by the Raid team.

As I said, raids are already casual. I don’t want them to be harder, because you have already plenty of time before the enrage. If I want harder raids, I can just go back to FFXIV imo. I just think, in my opinion, the enrage should be more balanced on some bosses. The best example is Cairn, the enrage is almost inexistant to be honest.

@Sorin Noroku.5342 – You can see the enrage timer plenty of time with pugs training or players not knowing mechanics. You finish the fight at 3-2 players. One time I had to do the last 10% of cairn alone with my druid, the enrage was at 6% remaining.
I like to help players in difficulty or beginners -probably because I don’t have something else to do with raids atm-, but I think I shouldn’t survived the enrage alone during a lot of time, and I don’t think the devs wanted to have the raids designed like this.

Khyan.7039:

@Sorin Noroku.5342 – You can see the enrage timer plenty of time with pugs training or players not knowing mechanics. You finish the fight at 3-2 players. One time I had to do the last 10% of cairn alone with my druid, the enrage was at 6% remaining.
I like to help players in difficulty or beginners -probably because I don’t have something else to do with raids atm-, but I think I shouldn’t survived the enrage alone during a lot of time, and I don’t think the devs wanted to have the raids designed like this.

That’s part of what I said being something was missing. Mechanics/People dying/Not doing what they should be. Those are main causes of enrage. People learning the fight, or learning their class are doing one of these things. Missing mechanics due to being new, or not doing what their class needs to from being new to it.

Warrior needs to pump might, not doing it, dps suffers. Ele needs to do damage, not doing it well enough, fight takes longer. etc etc.

Being new/training is a perfectly fine example of a reason to hit enrage. ^-^ Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying they’re bad. Just saying that’s the reason for enrage. And with hitting enrage, my view is that the extra damage is punishing enough. For new people to run out of time, to be SO VERY CLOSE, and instantly die. That would infuriate me. Now, if we’re that close with new people/people dead, and maybe I could survive a bit longer and win and not have wasted time. It’s more worth it. Otherwise people could be “30 seconds left, 15%, just wipe, we wont get”.

I just don’t understand why OP would want MORE punishing enrage. Sure some fights can be finished solo, some can’t. You wouldn’t have been able to finish sabetha alone in enrage. The platform would die. Gors would kill with world ender.

I also mean for different mechanics not just one player get green or another person get red get out etc type of mechanics it’s already there.. it’s nothing new.. :p enrage time .. etc etc.. need some fresh new game play
Say two teams entered same instance to achieve same objecrive. Kill timer score.. relic run score .. rescue mission etc. Two teams whichever team score more win the map reward and carry on to next same map until they lost it to another team.. purely pve gameplay base.. I think it will be cool and bcos of the one instance map.. it can be broadcast server wide. Idk lol

Khyan.7039:

@Cynz.9437 Thank you but I already did everything CM related.

And yes, I am serious. The enrage is forgiving most of the time on some encounters. I should add also, there is a lot of flaws in the design of some raid bosses, but most of the time it’s like bugs or things not intented by the Raid team.

o.0

“I want raids to be harder”

Few comments down

“I don’t want to do the CM anymore”

I don’t get it. You have the tools to make raids harder, and likewise you have the option to /gg when you hit the enrage timer if you wish to end the raid then. I don’t see why you are advocating to punish everyone else just because you aren’t willing to use the tools available to you to make raids less forgiving

OriOri.8724:

Khyan.7039:

@Cynz.9437 Thank you but I already did everything CM related.

And yes, I am serious. The enrage is forgiving most of the time on some encounters. I should add also, there is a lot of flaws in the design of some raid bosses, but most of the time it’s like bugs or things not intented by the Raid team.

o.0

“I want raids to be harder”

Few comments down

“I don’t want to do the CM anymore”

I don’t get it. You have the tools to make raids harder, and likewise you have the option to /gg when you hit the enrage timer if you wish to end the raid then. I don’t see why you are advocating to punish everyone else just because you aren’t willing to use the tools available to you to make raids less forgiving

If someone wants to bring down a wall to get to the other side theres a reason and theres a reward. If you dont get anything by bringing down that wall then why bother do it? Cm its the second atm. And ofc theres the thing about the devs saying “this will be the hardest pve content in game” which it was when the fist wing came out, after that it has been on the same lvl of difficulty. If this just keeps being the case then they should have said it like this “this will be the 1 time challenging content for pve”. The ppl who asked for more challenging content didn’t ask for a 1 time challenge.

zealex.9410:

Their excuse was that ppl just got better at the game because of the previous raid. If thats the case the next raid should be a step up from the last or ppl will just get bored. This is supposed to be “the hardest pve content” not “the hardest pve content for the first times you do it and then its the same every release”

You don’t have to increase the difficulty for it to be “the hardest pve content”. Even if all future raids were to have a difficulty slightly below the current newest wing, they’d still be more difficult than all the remaining, non-raid pve content.

The question is, do we really want more wings with harder encounters so we sit all week in raid instances? I personally don’t want to. Game should be fun and not turn into some kind of job.
I am glad when i can find groups that can clear all 4 wings in one evening but it is very rare. My guild isn’t doing so well atm either so i have to pug the rest, sometimes whole week because people still fail on bosses that have been there for months/year.

As far as enrage timers go, i would rather prefer if Anet used their resources to create new fun content or balance classes out than fixing something that doesn’t need fixing and is not issue to anyone besides certain…… individuals…..

And as other said OP, if enrage mechanic bothers you so much, just type /GG when you hit the enrage mark. Nobody stops you from that.

So rather than a filter for people who understand the game and know how to play it properly, you want it to be a filter for teams that can’t do (at least) 34,385,600 damage in 7m30s? Maybe a different kind of game is more up your lane, GW2 is for people who want to play properly, and have different kinds of challenges to tackle.

Cynz.9437:

The question is, do we really want more wings with harder encounters so we sit all week in raid instances?

They could’ve easily sticked to 3 bosses and made them more interesting. The mursaat overseer in particular just feels like an event like trio or escort. The CM for the overseer should’ve been the base normal mode mechanics. It’s 10x more fun.

Enrage is not the way to make a fight more challenging, if you want more challenge its because you get a good group, and if you are in a good group you will never hit enrage so how it will make it more challenging?

Not wiping enrages make run for some different kind of comps, where you know you will kill the boss 1-2 min after the enrage with these comp. And this is the way things should be.

And if you are saying this because of sloth kill, if something need to be changed its the perma inv build.

OnizukaBR.8537:

And if you are saying this because of sloth kill, if something need to be changed its the perma inv build.

Do you (and some others) really think that the perma stealth build is such an issue (in PvE at least, WvW discussion has no place here)??
It’s a gimicky build, that is very hard to pull off, and in no way affects normal runs. It will never become a commonly (or at all) used tactic, and doesn’t make the encounter any easier.
(From experience, tried it even with 8 thieves, way before this solo kill was made)

This is obviously unintended, but there’s no reason to urgently address it instead of fixing other, actually game breaking bugs/features (looking at you KC).

OriOri.8724:

Khyan.7039:

@Cynz.9437 Thank you but I already did everything CM related.

And yes, I am serious. The enrage is forgiving most of the time on some encounters. I should add also, there is a lot of flaws in the design of some raid bosses, but most of the time it’s like bugs or things not intented by the Raid team.

o.0

“I want raids to be harder”

Few comments down

“I don’t want to do the CM anymore”

I don’t get it. I never said anything like these. Please, if you want to provide an answer, avoid creating wrong statements. It’s a bit ridiculous. Nor my initial post and so on said I want harder things or I will not play cm anymore. If you have issue with reading, I’m afraid I can’t do anything.

I don’t really care about the difficulty tbh, however, I think it’s not intented by the raid team to surpass an enrage timer for so long in some bosses. I think some bosses are fine but others need to be balanced.

Maybe I was a bit too harsh to say something like instawipe at 0, but I personally think some bosses enrage should be a bit more punishing compared to others kind of enrage available. I mean, you should survive a bit with a team, and it’s fine. But you shouldn’t survive while being totally alone.

Khyan.7039:

OriOri.8724:

Khyan.7039:

@Cynz.9437 Thank you but I already did everything CM related.

And yes, I am serious. The enrage is forgiving most of the time on some encounters. I should add also, there is a lot of flaws in the design of some raid bosses, but most of the time it’s like bugs or things not intented by the Raid team.

o.0

“I want raids to be harder”

Few comments down

“I don’t want to do the CM anymore”

I don’t get it. I never said anything like these. Please, if you want to provide an answer, avoid creating wrong statements. It’s a bit ridiculous. Nor my initial post and so on said I want harder things or I will not play cm anymore. If you have issue with reading, I’m afraid I can’t do anything.

Your initial post complains about enrage mechanics not being punishing enough, and you complain about people being able to make the fights too easy by ignoring mechanics. You also directly tie “better” enrage mechanics with more difficult content. If you didn’t want to ask for raids to be made more difficult, then you shouldn’t have asked for them to be made more difficult. But your entire initial post is complaining about raids not being punishing enough, and that they are too easy.

Then further down, Cynz suggested that you could do the CM for more challenge and you shot that idea down. You directly said "Cynz.9437 Thank you but I already did everything CM related.", which implies that you don’t want to do the CM anymore.

If this isn’t what you meant well I’m afraid I can’t do anything, but this is what you wrote.

OriOri.8724:

Khyan.7039:

OriOri.8724:

Khyan.7039:

@Cynz.9437 Thank you but I already did everything CM related.

And yes, I am serious. The enrage is forgiving most of the time on some encounters. I should add also, there is a lot of flaws in the design of some raid bosses, but most of the time it’s like bugs or things not intented by the Raid team.

o.0

“I want raids to be harder”

Few comments down

“I don’t want to do the CM anymore”

I don’t get it. I never said anything like these. Please, if you want to provide an answer, avoid creating wrong statements. It’s a bit ridiculous. Nor my initial post and so on said I want harder things or I will not play cm anymore. If you have issue with reading, I’m afraid I can’t do anything.

Your initial post complains about enrage mechanics not being punishing enough, and you complain about people being able to make the fights too easy by ignoring mechanics. You also directly tie “better” enrage mechanics with more difficult content. If you didn’t want to ask for raids to be made more difficult, then you shouldn’t have asked for them to be made more difficult. But your entire initial post is complaining about raids not being punishing enough, and that they are too easy.

Then further down, Cynz suggested that you could do the CM for more challenge and you shot that idea down. You directly said "Cynz.9437 Thank you but I already did everything CM related.", which implies that you don’t want to do the CM anymore.

If this isn’t what you meant well I’m afraid I can’t do anything, but this is what you wrote.

It’s your own interpretation. You made it like it was a fact, but it’s not.

Khyan.7039:

I don’t really care about the difficulty tbh, however, I think it’s not intented by the raid team to surpass an enrage timer for so long in some bosses. I think some bosses are fine but others need to be balanced.

Maybe I was a bit too harsh to say something like instawipe at 0, but I personally think some bosses enrage should be a bit more punishing compared to others kind of enrage available. I mean, you should survive a bit with a team, and it’s fine. But you shouldn’t survive while being totally alone.

If the clear intention was for the timer to not be surpassed they would have deployed the raid otherwise. I mean, you do not propose a clear option like this and then pretend it was not an intended possibility. It make no sense.

The timer is just there to provide an incentive to deal with the encounter as fast as possible… unless, ofc, you crave an additional challenge…

Astralporing.1957:

zealex.9410:

Their excuse was that ppl just got better at the game because of the previous raid. If thats the case the next raid should be a step up from the last or ppl will just get bored. This is supposed to be “the hardest pve content” not “the hardest pve content for the first times you do it and then its the same every release”

You don’t have to increase the difficulty for it to be “the hardest pve content”. Even if all future raids were to have a difficulty slightly below the current newest wing, they’d still be more difficult than all the remaining, non-raid pve content.

True but theres is no reason for them to leave it there since the audience they targeted with raids like them and they would like even harder encounters.

Dadnir.5038:

Enrage is just a flawed mechanism in itself that could only exist in gamelike environment and break any kind of imersion. Logically, any kind of human, creature, demon or whatever would just run away the moment they find themself in a dead end. More than that, It’s illogical that something could have a huge surge of strenght after having being bitten to death by other things.

Agreed. There are plenty of interesting alternatives that could achieve the same goal (DPS check) while not breaking immersion.

One, obviously, is what you suggest – the boss tries to escape, and the raid is forced to block the escape and/or kill the boss before it succeeds.

Another would be for the boss to generate an environmental hazard as a result of taking damage. An example would be damaging blood (poison, frostbite, burning, or other condition depending on boss type/origin) which pools at the boss location, forcing the raid to carefully control boss position to avoid tanks dying while at the same time ensuring they kill it before the entire area is covered, which would ensure a wipe.

Yet another (which works best for mechanical bosses) is for the boss to have some overload mechanic which triggers at some percentage of HP and takes a fixed period of time before discharging/exploding, killing both the boss and the raid.

Another one would be to give the boss a strong regeneration mechanic, so that groups simply had to out-DPS the regen. This could be further complicated by adding fight mechanics that take off large chunks of HP each time, so that the DPS just has to be great enough so that the boss doesn’t out-heal the mechanic damage.

One boss could trigger some signal at a particular point in the fight, after which reinforcements arrive to wipe the raid.

There are lots of things that could be done that are better than enrages.

ATMAvatar.5749:

Dadnir.5038:

Enrage is just a flawed mechanism in itself that could only exist in gamelike environment and break any kind of imersion. Logically, any kind of human, creature, demon or whatever would just run away the moment they find themself in a dead end. More than that, It’s illogical that something could have a huge surge of strenght after having being bitten to death by other things.

Agreed. There are plenty of interesting alternatives that could achieve the same goal (DPS check) while not breaking immersion.

One, obviously, is what you suggest – the boss tries to escape, and the raid is forced to block the escape and/or kill the boss before it succeeds.

Another would be for the boss to generate an environmental hazard as a result of taking damage. An example would be damaging blood (poison, frostbite, burning, or other condition depending on boss type/origin) which pools at the boss location, forcing the raid to carefully control boss position to avoid tanks dying while at the same time ensuring they kill it before the entire area is covered, which would ensure a wipe.

Yet another (which works best for mechanical bosses) is for the boss to have some overload mechanic which triggers at some percentage of HP and takes a fixed period of time before discharging/exploding, killing both the boss and the raid.

Another one would be to give the boss a strong regeneration mechanic, so that groups simply had to out-DPS the regen. This could be further complicated by adding fight mechanics that take off large chunks of HP each time, so that the DPS just has to be great enough so that the boss doesn’t out-heal the mechanic damage.

One boss could trigger some signal at a particular point in the fight, after which reinforcements arrive to wipe the raid.

There are lots of things that could be done that are better than enrages.

This guy! This guy here has some awesome ideas! These sound fun!

Khyan.7039:

OriOri.8724:

Khyan.7039:

OriOri.8724:

Khyan.7039:

@Cynz.9437 Thank you but I already did everything CM related.

And yes, I am serious. The enrage is forgiving most of the time on some encounters. I should add also, there is a lot of flaws in the design of some raid bosses, but most of the time it’s like bugs or things not intented by the Raid team.

o.0

“I want raids to be harder”

Few comments down

“I don’t want to do the CM anymore”

I don’t get it. I never said anything like these. Please, if you want to provide an answer, avoid creating wrong statements. It’s a bit ridiculous. Nor my initial post and so on said I want harder things or I will not play cm anymore. If you have issue with reading, I’m afraid I can’t do anything.

Your initial post complains about enrage mechanics not being punishing enough, and you complain about people being able to make the fights too easy by ignoring mechanics. You also directly tie “better” enrage mechanics with more difficult content. If you didn’t want to ask for raids to be made more difficult, then you shouldn’t have asked for them to be made more difficult. But your entire initial post is complaining about raids not being punishing enough, and that they are too easy.

Then further down, Cynz suggested that you could do the CM for more challenge and you shot that idea down. You directly said "Cynz.9437 Thank you but I already did everything CM related.", which implies that you don’t want to do the CM anymore.

If this isn’t what you meant well I’m afraid I can’t do anything, but this is what you wrote.

It’s your own interpretation. You made it like it was a fact, but it’s not.

The cm in w4 in a way brought the worse of both worlds. For one the lack of rewards make it so you got no reason to w4 and because of the cm’s the normal encounters in the wing are easier which is not what ppl who raids are aimed at want.

I am so tired of people who have farmed the raids day and night since their inception, thinking they speak for the entire raiding base. I’m here to tell you that you do not.

Secondly, every single boss in the raids can still wipe people and destroy groups very easily. Even experienced groups have off days. Don’t get to greens in time on VG? Wipe! Unless you have truly excellent heals or the green HAPPENS to be beside a Mesmer for invul. Miss a swipe or dodge on Cairn; get punted off and cause an enormous dps/heals loss. Someone doesn’t do the dispel or claim on overseer; Wipe. Don’t manage to throw a bomb on sabatha or get wacked by the flame wall; wipe. Don’t get to a fountain or drop poison in the wrong place in Sloth or Matt – Wipe. Don’t knock back the human in Sammy – delay = wipe.

Very few people have these raids perfected like some of the commentators here seem to “think” they have. I have over 210 Insights and I’m still finding ways I can do better. I still can get caught out. Heck even ESCORT one shot our very experienced Raid Leader because of a momentary lapse in concentration.

Now we have CM modes and you guys are STILL not happy. Seriously. Not everyone want’s to be crucified for every minute mistake. Do you know what that does? It causes resentment within teams and makes people feel like kitten. People need to remember the content is for 10 people and it relies on everyone to do their job. The people that are clearing this stuff in 5 man groups are people who live and breath raids. Future content should not be designed around these extremes and I am confident ANET will not fall into that trap. GW2 is NOT that kind of game. Stop trying to turn it into Wildstar. If you want the playerbase to dwindle even further, then keep on this very shaky path.

Lastly, there is no such word as “punishful”.

zealex.9410:

True but theres is no reason for them to leave it there since the audience they targeted with raids like them and they would like even harder encounters.

Correction. Some of those people would like even harder encounters. Some do not.
Also, the “progression” of difficulty has one flaw you don’t seem to notice. It’s something that would only shrink the community.
Remember, that increasing difficulty will mean, that at every threshold some people would get left behind. When people get left too far behind, they get discouraged and some of them will leave. And with more and more raids (and increased expectations from the raiding groups), less and less new people will be able to join.
That’s a recipe for disaster.

On the other hand, yeah, let’s do that. Make each new raid encounter harder and harder until only few groups on the absolute top will be able to keep up. I’m pretty sure that many of the people i am usually arguing with would come to see my point very fast after ending in “not good enough” group.

Astralporing.1957:

zealex.9410:

True but theres is no reason for them to leave it there since the audience they targeted with raids like them and they would like even harder encounters.

Correction. Some of those people would like even harder encounters. Some do not.
Also, the “progression” of difficulty has one flaw you don’t seem to notice. It’s something that would only shrink the community.
Remember, that increasing difficulty will mean, that at every threshold some people would get left behind. When people get left too far behind, they get discouraged and some of them will leave. And with more and more raids (and increased expectations from the raiding groups), less and less new people will be able to join.
That’s a recipe for disaster.

On the other hand, yeah, let’s do that. Make each new raid encounter harder and harder until only few groups on the absolute top will be able to keep up. I’m pretty sure that many of the people i am usually arguing with would come to see my point very fast after ending in “not good enough” group.

Pretty much this.

Astralporing.1957:

zealex.9410:

True but theres is no reason for them to leave it there since the audience they targeted with raids like them and they would like even harder encounters.

Correction. Some of those people would like even harder encounters. Some do not.
Also, the “progression” of difficulty has one flaw you don’t seem to notice. It’s something that would only shrink the community.
Remember, that increasing difficulty will mean, that at every threshold some people would get left behind. When people get left too far behind, they get discouraged and some of them will leave. And with more and more raids (and increased expectations from the raiding groups), less and less new people will be able to join.
That’s a recipe for disaster.

On the other hand, yeah, let’s do that. Make each new raid encounter harder and harder until only few groups on the absolute top will be able to keep up. I’m pretty sure that many of the people i am usually arguing with would come to see my point very fast after ending in “not good enough” group.

No i dont agree. What u say might have some merrit but thats only if the learning curve gets out of hand pretty uch like with hot maps and coree tyria ones. I if theres a balanced and steady learning curve and challenge with each raid then ppl will just do it naturally.

zealex.9410:

No i dont agree. What u say might have some merrit but thats only if the learning curve gets out of hand pretty uch like with hot maps and coree tyria ones. I if theres a balanced and steady learning curve and challenge with each raid then ppl will just do it naturally.

I assume that GW2 hasn’t arrived there yet, but there is a point where the learning curve actually should flatten out instead of steadily going up. It’s debatable where that point should be located (and that’s a matter of personal preference), but you cannot make encounters ever harder without losing a ton of people.

Back when I played WoW, the end phase of BC was the first time I noticed this. More recently, Wildstar was another clear example. A pretty steady learning curve from the beginning of Genetic Archives via Datascape to the end of Redmoon Terror, but RMT just overdid it. I don’t think any encounter was hated by as many people who beat it as was Navigation Core, and that’s not because it was unfair or anything like that, but because a fun freetime thing had finally become more labour than hobby.

CptAurellian.9537:

zealex.9410:

No i dont agree. What u say might have some merrit but thats only if the learning curve gets out of hand pretty uch like with hot maps and coree tyria ones. I if theres a balanced and steady learning curve and challenge with each raid then ppl will just do it naturally.

I assume that GW2 hasn’t arrived there yet, but there is a point where the learning curve actually should flatten out instead of steadily going up. It’s debatable where that point should be located (and that’s a matter of personal preference), but you cannot make encounters ever harder without losing a ton of people.

Back when I played WoW, the end phase of BC was the first time I noticed this. More recently, Wildstar was another clear example. A pretty steady learning curve from the beginning of Genetic Archives via Datascape to the end of Redmoon Terror, but RMT just overdid it. I don’t think any encounter was hated by as many people who beat it as was Navigation Core, and that’s not because it was unfair or anything like that, but because a fun freetime thing had finally become more labour than hobby.

Ok you seem as someone who has a big history with raiding in general so i won’t dought your claims. But i feel that neither the opposite should happen, i mean have the mjority of raids be at a flat difficulty isuppose a fine balance is good with this kind of content but i dont wonna look forward to the next raid having x bosses be as entry lvl as the first 2 bosses were for wing 4

No, always staying at entry level is probably not the best idea. I think I should finally try to dedicate some time to actually seeing the GW2 raids, although I can imagine the “difficulty” after all the stuff I’ve heard from guild mates who played both WS and GW2 raids.

CptAurellian.9537:

No, always staying at entry level is probably not the best idea. I think I should finally try to dedicate some time to actually seeing the GW2 raids, although I can imagine the “difficulty” after all the stuff I’ve heard from guild mates who played both WS and GW2 raids.

what did they say? im currious because i never got to try the wildstar raids maybe now with the lvl 50 boost i might get to try them.

They said that GW2 raids are by far easier and less complex. That’s what I would have expected anyway, as GW2’s combat system still has some rather severe limitations and its raids are 10 man compared to 20 in WS.

If you try the WS raids, keep in mind that the game’s power creep* has had a massive impact. Redmoon Terror is probably still super-hard for the average guild, but in Datascape and Genetic Archives, many mechanics can now be skipped due to massive dps. You’ll have to look thoroughly to glimpse all the aspects that made those fights so great during progression.

*I’m really happy that GW2 isn’t that bad due to the lack of gear progression.

CptAurellian.9537:

They said that GW2 raids are by far easier and less complex. That’s what I would have expected anyway, as GW2’s combat system still has some rather severe limitations and its raids are 10 man compared to 20 in WS.

20 men raid!!? Aaarrrrg! I want to puke just thinking about the hassle of forming such groups.

CptAurellian.9537:

They said that GW2 raids are by far easier and less complex. That’s what I would have expected anyway, as GW2’s combat system still has some rather severe limitations and its raids are 10 man compared to 20 in WS.

If you try the WS raids, keep in mind that the game’s power creep* has had a massive impact. Redmoon Terror is probably still super-hard for the average guild, but in Datascape and Genetic Archives, many mechanics can now be skipped due to massive dps. You’ll have to look thoroughly to glimpse all the aspects that made those fights so great during progression.

*I’m really happy that GW2 isn’t that bad due to the lack of gear progression.

what are these limitations of the gw2 combat u speak of?

Someone mentioned about 20men raids? Haha..That’s like Teq fight!!! :P or world bosses will cover that xD

OriOri.8724:

o.0

“I want raids to be harder”

Few comments down

“I don’t want to do the CM anymore”

The thing to remember is that what drives harder, instanced content in MMO’s is rewards. Despite what posters post, this is the real issue. Always. This applies both to the so-called hardcore and those demanding easy-mode raids. They all want the carrot.

zealex.9410:

what are these limitations of the gw2 combat u speak of?

The almost non-existent aggro system (sorry, that toughness thing isn’t a real one), the rather limited healing mechanics and the too strong emphasis on dodge come to mind. There’s probably more, but I’m too lazy to think about all the details.

Those aren’t limitations, those are are features.
GW2 is not a trinity game.

Ardid.7203:

Those aren’t limitations, those are are features.
GW2 is not a trinity game.

They are both, actually. The existence of dodge, for example, has a massive impact on design of harder content. There’s a reason why more and more mechanics are being made undodgeable (remember, when you see some major combat mechanic elements getting flat out ignored in an encounter, it means those mechanics create a design problem).