Guild Wars 2

Hey all, I know there’s been a lot said about dungeons over the last few years and I’m aware that there’s some great players on this forum who really know their stuff. Some of your solo and speed-clear vids that I’ve watched over the last few months are incredibly inspiring! I’ve been reading up a lot on this forum over the last few weeks, but bear in mind that there’s way too much info here for me to have a comprehensive knowledge of all things dungeon-related.

And I’ll say straight up: I’m not an expert gamer or anything, Gw2 is my first proper MMO. As a player, I’ve been messing about ‘trying’ solos and so far I’ve managed (just about) to kill Spider Queen (AC) and Jungle Wurm (TA) on a solo gaurdian. On the other hand, put me in a PUG with experienced speed runners and I’m the guy that will get stressed out, run in the wrong direction, die in a trap, aggro the wrong mob etc. I’ve been a member of [Noob] guild as a mentee, not a mentor! So no pretensions of grandeur here…

Anyway, the reason that I’m posting is that I noticed a very telling statement made by one of the devs in the YT vid referenced on the ‘disappointing news’ necro-thread. At around 5.30 in the clip, he says dungeons are:

‘..an area that has a very dedicated playgroup.’

I don’t know what the consensus of the dungeon forumites is at the moment, but my reading of that statement makes me think that dungeons are an under-utilized part of the GW2 world. Let’s face it, it’s very easy to interpret phrases like ‘dedicated playgroup’ as a diplomatic way of saying ‘small group’. Perhaps I’m wrong in saying that but that’s the way I’m seeing it. I’m sure that all of us realise that ANet has user-statistics about how people are actually playing the game and they will focus their energies on the parts of the game that are most utilised.

I’ve seen a lot of posts blaming the ‘meta’ or whatever for the lack of numbers in dungeon, but I’ve come to realise that this is untrue. I think that if dungeons (and fractals) are under-utilised, it’s because they are the hardest aspects of this game. As has been pointed out by some of the top players that I’ve seen, the difference in difficulty between open world PvE and dungeon instances is huge! There’s probably a lot of people that blame the meta for their disappointment with dungeons when often, I suspect, they’re struggling with the difficulty of the content. It’s also probably true that the meta (or psuedo-meta) adds another level of difficulty for inexperienced players. For example, it’s hard to skip trash when you don’t know which way you’re going.

I realise that there’s been a lot of requests for a ‘hard mode’ in dungeons but I believe that what would be better for everyone (pros, noobs, and ANet) is to fill the ‘gap’ that exists between open-world PvE and instances. Instead of requesting a hard-mode, why not try and convince ANet to implement an ‘easy mode’ or, better still, a fractal-like level system for dungeons or something. I suspect, ANet is between a rock and hard place on this issue. They want to encourage more dungeoneers but if they were to implement an easy-mode it could create a huge backlash from the pro players about how the game was being ‘dumbed down’ or whatever. And they may think it would hurt the pride of the lesser skilled players too.

Here’s what I’m basically saying: perhaps we should reconsider the request for a ‘hard mode’. Instead, think easy-mode or a level system like fractals (which starts at a lower level than fractal 1). If more players can be encouraged to play dungeons then there would be a greater pool of people that can get past the first hurdles of learning dungeon mechanics. The more people that play dungeons, the more ANet will focus on them. Then harder dungeon content will be inevitable since ANet will see it as popular content. And the less whining there will be about the meta because there will be a much larger group of players that are in the same position as the pro’s who want to finish the dungeon as quickly as possible.

I know this suggestion may be controversial for some of you but I guess I’m suggesting that sometimes the best way to get what you want (harder dungeon content) is by first meeting other peoples needs.

Anyway, apologies for the wall of text and I hope some of that made sense. Carry on, kittens

I don’t agree that the dungeons are too hard. I think they lack a proper difficulty curve. Anet decided to introduce each dungeon at a specific level. This implies that you start easy, and gradually get more complicated dungeons. While Arah is clearly among the most difficult, AC is far from the easiest dungeon.

I don’t think the meta is the reason for lower dungeon popularity, but I think it is a side effect of bad dungeon design. When there’s very little reason to replay a dungeon, it all comes down to repetition for the end rewards.

If the experience in itself was more entertaining, and felt more rewarding, people would probably be less inclined to skip everything. Dungeons were very popular in GW1, despite the game initially having only 2 elite areas. Speed clearing didn’t even become a thing until much much later. I think this had very little to do with the difficulty. The elite areas were just fun to do, and very rewarding. FoW and UW dropped very valuable crafting materials, and allowed players to craft an elite armor set. Perhaps this is why they added Domain of Anguish much later, which was the hardest elite area in the game.

A lot of work clearly went into UW, FoW and DOA. I cannot say the same about the dungeons in GW2. They feel sloppy, unfinished and rushed. They feel like the result of meeting tight deadlines. Compare this to something like Fractals, and you notice that Fractals is clearly far more polished.

Dungeons are just too old, and it’s easier to get their rewards by pvp than by actually running the dungeon, especially if new. It’s all about rewards, fractals has it bad, dungeons are disproportionate to time investment.

There is an artificial “easy” mode and can be achieved by using gear/trait lines that are focused on defensive attributes. When you run around with 30k hp and 2 billion armor, dying is pretty tough.

Run story mode ac. About as easy as it gets

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I don’t agree that the dungeons are too hard. I think they lack a proper difficulty curve. Anet decided to introduce each dungeon at a specific level. This implies that you start easy, and gradually get more complicated dungeons. While Arah is clearly among the most difficult, AC is far from the easiest dungeon.

I don’t think the meta is the reason for lower dungeon popularity, but I think it is a side effect of bad dungeon design. When there’s very little reason to replay a dungeon, it all comes down to repetition for the end rewards.

If the experience in itself was more entertaining, and felt more rewarding, people would probably be less inclined to skip everything. Dungeons were very popular in GW1, despite the game initially having only 2 elite areas. Speed clearing didn’t even become a thing until much much later. I think this had very little to do with the difficulty. The elite areas were just fun to do, and very rewarding. FoW and UW dropped very valuable crafting materials, and allowed players to craft an elite armor set. Perhaps this is why they added Domain of Anguish much later, which was the hardest elite area in the game.

A lot of work clearly went into UW, FoW and DOA. I cannot say the same about the dungeons in GW2. They feel sloppy, unfinished and rushed. They feel like the result of meeting tight deadlines. Compare this to something like Fractals, and you notice that Fractals is clearly far more polished.

I didn’t play GW1 so I’m in no position to make a judgement, sorry. But the more valid comparison is to look between GW2 dungeons and other GW2 content. In other words, for example, you can ask why are people choosing to run world boss/dragon tours instead of running dungeon instances. I don’t accept that dungeons are less ‘interesting’ than world bosses. I’m also struggling to accept that fractals are more popular or played more frequently than dungeons, but I have no evidence to support my intuition on that.

As far as skipping is considered, it’s logically true that we all skip content in open world PvE all the time. We’re always skipping mobs as we run from one camp to another in SW, for example. My position as a noob is that skipping can be a difficult skill to master: I’ve been working on a solo of Arah 2 and, despite a huge amount of repetition, it’s still seventy/thirty whether I get past the first trash run as a guardian.(And don’t get me started about Belka, kitten :/)

The main problem I see with skipping is, as I pointed out above, that it creates an additional difficulty factor for players that don’t have much practice at the content.

Game difficulty is a relative concept and there will be a disparity between people’s skill levels. But the bottom-line is to ask why are players choosing to run less interesting PvE content in Gw2 like world-bosses instead of more interesting content like dungeons and fractals. Particularly, if it turns out that dungeons are more lucrative than world-bosses — which is probably true. (I also think it may be a myth that maps like SW are necessarily more lucrative than dungeons but that’s open to debate. My experience is that good drops from SW lootbags are fairly kitten).

Tree.3916:

There is an artificial “easy” mode and can be achieved by using gear/trait lines that are focused on defensive attributes. When you run around with 30k hp and 2 billion armor, dying is pretty tough.

Unfortunately, I don’t think it works that way. As you know, there really is a reason why the dps meta exists. Long encounters with GW2 bosses (and even elite trash mobs) are punishing regardless of armor and hp. Everyone knows: The longer the encounter goes on, the more chance there is of making a mistake that usually ends up deadly. That’s been my experience anyway; for example, I’m not confident there’s any amount of armour or Hp that can prevent you from getting killed by the elite trash in Arah on a failed skip run.

The bottom-line isn’t what I personally do or don’t as a player. I’ve already stated what I’m doing (personally) in the above post: I’ve watched the great DnT vids, read up on Wethospu’s excellent site, joined the [Noob] guild, and am practicing (with limited success) on solos. And I’ll continue playing that way. I was speaking in more general terms above.

LeVi tHe sHaRK.7128:

I don’t accept that dungeons are less ‘interesting’ than world bosses. I’m also struggling to accept that fractals are more popular or played more frequently than dungeons, but I have no evidence to support my intuition on that.

We have to be careful not to confuse popularity, or replayability, with quality.

But to return to the OP’s original point. I think the game needs easier AND harder dungeon content. And it’s not merely a case of popularity (what do the most players ask for). Because the hardest elite areas will always be played by a comparative small sample of players. That should not be an argument against its inclusion.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

LeVi tHe sHaRK.7128:

I don’t accept that dungeons are less ‘interesting’ than world bosses. I’m also struggling to accept that fractals are more popular or played more frequently than dungeons, but I have no evidence to support my intuition on that.

We have to be careful not to confuse popularity, or replayability, with quality.

But to return to the OP’s original point. I think the game needs easier AND harder dungeon content. And it’s not merely a case of popularity (what do the most players ask for). Because the hardest elite areas will always be played by a comparative small sample of players. That should not be an argument against its inclusion.

We’re agreed on that! I have no issue with seeing harder content in the game. I guess the point I was trying to make in the OP is that maybe the best way to arrive at a solution that makes everyone happy is to begin by focusing on making dungeons more accessible and used. A fractal-like level system would be a good solution but I’m strongly pushing the proposal that the première fractal-level is lower than the level 1 in place now. I realise that some people will instinctively hate such a proposal but I can only suggest that they think it through before dismissing it.

A ‘easy-mode’ dungeon doesn’t make the current ‘harder-mode’ dungeons any easier. And it increases the possibility for ‘hardest-mode’ dungeons.

… And I accept that there will need to be some balancing of rewards.

I’m totally in favor of a fractal like system for all dungeons. That would instantly provide a more accessible difficulty curve, while also providing that much sought after challenge at higher levels.

Honestly, I disagree. You’re claiming that dungeons aren’t played add much because they’re the ‘hardest’ content on the game, but you don’t really have anything to back it up. In any case,even if the dungeons are the hardest content, they are still (by and large) far from difficult. Especially after running through each dungeon once or twice, they’re honestly incredibly easy.

@ Fermi

No, I don’t have any evidence to ‘back up’ what I’m saying. It’s possible that dungeons are, in fact, being played a lot by a wide cross-culture of the community or it’s also possible (if dungeons aren’t being played) that players are choosing to play alternative GW2 content for reasons other than it’s difficulty.

It’s the case that I’m putting forward but I have absolutely no way to prove it to be true. Not sure what else I can say besides that

I like the idea,.