Guild Wars 2

Rising Dusk.2408:

I leech these events by going afk, and God knows how many other people do it too (I see dozens doing the same thing every event). The only exceptions are for things like Teq with his Fear where you have to run back afterward. For something like the Shatterer, I auto-attack and then go make a sandwich.

You cannot do this with Fractals (and if you try, you get kicked from your group).

Whether it is easy or difficult to get a rare, the value of it is still dependent on its quantity and ease of acquisition.

If you are testifying that this is how simple to get a rare, then the problem lies with the World Boss chest and not with the Fractal chest.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Rising Dusk.2408:

I leech these events by going afk, and God knows how many other people do it too (I see dozens doing the same thing every event). The only exceptions are for things like Teq with his Fear where you have to run back afterward. For something like the Shatterer, I auto-attack and then go make a sandwich.

You cannot do this with Fractals (and if you try, you get kicked from your group).

Whether it is easy or difficult to get a rare, the value of it is still dependent on its quantity and ease of acquisition.

If you are testifying that this is how simple to get a rare, then the problem lies with the World Boss chest and not with the Fractal chest.

Or it’s a problem with the Fractal chest because it doesn’t offer enough rewards for the challenge, compared to the AFK Boss chests. You can see this in two distinct ways. IF the AFK Boss chests were indeed problematic someone would think that by now they would’ve fixed them, no?

Rising Dusk.2408:

TheAngryLuddite.1834:

Rising Dusk.2408:

If it is AFKable, then why not more people just go AFK? I think you meant to say is that, it is “LEECHABLE”.

Maybe not so much AFKable, as ALT-TABable. (…)

Heads up: you misquoted this. It wasn’t me who said it.

Whoops – my bad, and thanks for the heads up – fixed.

Copypasta error.

D:

TheAngryLuddite.1834:

Hm. In a way I get your point, but at the same time, higher level fractals are supposed to reward better loot outside of just the fractal skins. Hypothetically they do, but the point you’re making is that you can run lower level fractals easier, and with more frequency, thus imbalancing the supposed fractal loot ladder.

But they do get better reward, not only from drops but also from the vendor. I don’t believe that you get items in higher frequency the higher you get, but instead you get more things the higher you get.

For example;
Basically, if you do level 5, you get item A at 10% chance. But if you do level 50, not only you get item A at 10% chance, but also can get item B at 10% chance.

Do you see what I mean?

Maybe not so much AFKable, as ALT-TABable. You can park in the mob at Tecuddle’s feet, put on auto-range, alt-tab, browse the web a little, whatever, come back, pop a heal skill maybe (if you downed, someone will probably rez you, don’t worry), make sure your auto attacks are still firing… same with the Shatterer (although he has some serious lag problems that make him basically unplayable right now anyway). Jormag as well, to a degree (although you should really be helping take out those ice pillars in phase two), though that one requires a bit more repositioning. Jormag also happens to be the most tempting to get your damage in, then kinda just thumb your nose while people take down the ice walls and 1 their charzookas away.

I think the point is that when we say the bosses are ‘AFKable’ we mean that there is no challenge. It’s boring, it’s tedious, it’s easy, but it’s free loot that you feel like you’re missing out on if you don’t do them.

I never like the World Boss fight so I don’t feel like I’m missing out. If I happen to be in the area when it’s up, then I’ll participate. Otherwise I have better things to do than fry my GPU for the next 3hrs.

And I know what you meant that is why the appropriate term is “leechable” because someone else has to make the effort in getting things done while you’re nodding your head in boredom. When I’m in a World Boss fight, I attack, buff, heal, rez, etc. And you rely to players like me to do all these that’s why you get bored.

And, you know, I don’t know if I hate Jormag or the Cliffside Fractal more.

Jormag is easy, but tedious, long, and mind-numbingly boring. Cliffside is the same, except it’s not as easy, and carries the danger of wiping your fractal run if someone screws up on the arm seals.

And, by that token, Cliffside should be more rewarding, right? But it’s not… you hardly get anything off the mobs, since most of them are respawners, and the chest has that chance of blues and greens.

It seems to me that the chest reward is the same across the board in one fractal instance. So having level 4 dredge-cliff-swamp has same loot as level 4 aquatic-urban-snow but the difficulty level is way far from each other.

So if there is something to change, the difficulty level should be normalized instead rather than giving more reward.

Logically, the harder thing should be more rewarding. Right now, it’s not.

I agree. But it seems that what you want is, if you get item A at 10%, you want item A at 10%+ the higher you get instead of having item A 10%, then unlock item B at 10%, then item C, etc.

But again, I get it – you’re saying it’s not logical, but that’s just how it is.

And we’re saying: “Devs! Please hear us! This is not logical and should be changed!”

No, what I’m saying is that, the design follows a certain logic that is not something we consider as logical.

Logical to us:
level 1 = item A at 10%
level 11 = item A at 11%
….

Their logic:
level 1 = item A at 10%
level 11 = item A at 10%, item B at 10%
….

See what I mean?

maddoctor.2738:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Rising Dusk.2408:

I leech these events by going afk, and God knows how many other people do it too (I see dozens doing the same thing every event). The only exceptions are for things like Teq with his Fear where you have to run back afterward. For something like the Shatterer, I auto-attack and then go make a sandwich.

You cannot do this with Fractals (and if you try, you get kicked from your group).

Whether it is easy or difficult to get a rare, the value of it is still dependent on its quantity and ease of acquisition.

If you are testifying that this is how simple to get a rare, then the problem lies with the World Boss chest and not with the Fractal chest.

Or it’s a problem with the Fractal chest because it doesn’t offer enough rewards for the challenge, compared to the AFK Boss chests. You can see this in two distinct ways. IF the AFK Boss chests were indeed problematic someone would think that by now they would’ve fixed them, no?

I think they will have to because as I mentioned above, the quantity of rares had cut the value of Ectos to almost 50%….unless of course this is intentional. :/

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Whether it is easy or difficult to get a rare, the value of it is still dependent on its quantity and ease of acquisition.

If you are testifying that this is how simple to get a rare, then the problem lies with the World Boss chest and not with the Fractal chest.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I think they will have to because as I mentioned above, the quantity of rares had cut the value of Ectos to almost 50%….unless of course this is intentional. :/

This is actually wrong. The value is dependent on two factors: how desirable the item is for any reason, and how many of the items exist and are being sold. When they added more rares to the supply via the world chests, this significantly reduced the value of a rare (and consequently an ecto). Doing the same for fractals chests, I would argue, would not have the same effect due to the much greater difficulty of Fractals (even low levels) compared to a world boss. World bosses are essentially incapable of being failed, and are completed by thousands upon thousands of players potentially dozens of times a day. Fractals take more time by a significant margin and are much more difficult (even low levels of fractals can result in failure for bad or significantly upleveled players). This means that if each Fractal chest at, say, levels 1-25 gave 1 rare and each chest at, say, 26-50 gave 2 rares, you would not be significantly increasing the supply by nearly as much as was increased by world events. Since neither of these actions appreciably changes the demand of rares, only the supply, the net result would be a much less noticeable drop in value of the rares (and consequently ecto).

You make the false assertion that there is anything wrong with any of this. Au contraire, John Smith (ANet’s resident economist) has specifically approved in his domain on the forums of the change and has predicted the market swings as a result. Nothing “bad” has happened; it is exactly as was intended. John Smith could then determine, using more information but largely the same logic I just used, whether or not improving Fractals loot would have a significant or problematic impact on the economy.

My argument is that it wouldn’t be, and that it would sufficiently reward players of difficult content. That is a very good thing.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Whether it is easy or difficult to get a rare, the value of it is still dependent on its quantity and ease of acquisition.

If you are testifying that this is how simple to get a rare, then the problem lies with the World Boss chest and not with the Fractal chest.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I think they will have to because as I mentioned above, the quantity of rares had cut the value of Ectos to almost 50%….unless of course this is intentional. :/

This is actually wrong. The value is dependent on two factors: how desirable the item is for any reason, and how many of the items exist and are being sold. When they added more rares to the supply via the world chests, this significantly reduced the value of a rare (and consequently an ecto). Doing the same for fractals chests, I would argue, would not have the same effect due to the much greater difficulty of Fractals (even low levels) compared to a world boss. World bosses are essentially incapable of being failed, and are completed by thousands upon thousands of players potentially dozens of times a day. Fractals take more time by a significant margin and are much more difficult (even low levels of fractals can result in failure for bad or significantly upleveled players). This means that if each Fractal chest at, say, levels 1-25 gave 1 rare and each chest at, say, 26-50 gave 2 rares, you would not be significantly increasing the supply by nearly as much as was increased by world events. Since neither of these actions appreciably changes the demand of rares, only the supply, the net result would be a much less noticeable drop in value of the rares (and consequently ecto).

It will be significantly noticeable given time. The repeatability of Fractals will flood the market with rares (kinda defeat the term “rare”) and it affects the market in a negative way. Then once the price of rare drops, and your rare is valued as much as green, what then?

You make the false assertion that there is anything wrong with any of this. Au contraire, John Smith (ANet’s resident economist) has specifically approved in his domain on the forums of the change and has predicted the market swings as a result. Nothing “bad” has happened; it is exactly as was intended. John Smith could then determine, using more information but largely the same logic I just used, whether or not improving Fractals loot would have a significant or problematic impact on the economy.

I never said that the negative impact is “bad”. I even speculated that it might be Anet’s intension all along. Although it saddens me to see the value of my ectos goes down, on the other hand, I am also glad that I can afford them.

My argument is that it wouldn’t be, and that it would sufficiently reward players of difficult content. That is a very good thing.

I am simply providing a perspective based on the discussion topic. If Anet believes that your perspective is a “very good thing”, then their will be done. Nothing more I can say after that, but IMO, the Fractals difficulty level balance is out of whack, especially cliffside.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

It will be significantly noticeable given time. The repeatability of Fractals will flood the market with rares (kinda defeat the term “rare”) and it affects the market in a negative way. Then once the price of rare drops, and your rare is valued as much as green, what then?

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I am simply providing a perspective based on the discussion topic.

While I do appreciate the value of different perspectives, I guess I just have a hard time agreeing with your point.

We’ve seen ectos drop how much from the world boss chest buff – 15s? I think they were like 40s at their peak, and when I checked last, they were at something like 25s.

Buffing fractal chests, imo, would only drop that by maybe a few silver more, although it would be difficult to discern (on our end) between that hypothetical change, and the continued saturation of rares and exotics from world boss chests.

The volume of full groups completing high level fractals, as compared to the stunning mass of players doing world bosses every day on every server, just cannot compare.

Rising Dusk.2408:

John Smith could then determine, using more information but largely the same logic I just used, whether or not improving Fractals loot would have a significant or problematic impact on the economy.

My argument is that it wouldn’t be, and that it would sufficiently reward players of difficult content. That is a very good thing.

Again, I have to agree with Rising Dusk.

The ratio of effort to reward is simply skewed after the last patch. I’m not asking for world boss chests to be nerfed already. I’m just saying it would be nice for fractal runners to see a similar buff to their chests, seeing as how fractals – especially at higher levels – are clearly a greater challenge.

It would be interesting to hear Smith, or one of the other Devs weigh in on this, if even only to counter our points as you – Sir Vincent – have been.

TheAngryLuddite.1834:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

It will be significantly noticeable given time. The repeatability of Fractals will flood the market with rares (kinda defeat the term “rare”) and it affects the market in a negative way. Then once the price of rare drops, and your rare is valued as much as green, what then?

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I am simply providing a perspective based on the discussion topic.

While I do appreciate the value of different perspectives, I guess I just have a hard time agreeing with your point.

We’ve seen ectos drop how much from the world boss chest buff – 15s? I think they were like 40s at their peak, and when I checked last, they were at something like 25s.

Buffing fractal chests, imo, would only drop that by maybe a few silver more, although it would be difficult to discern (on our end) between that hypothetical change, and the continued saturation of rares and exotics from world boss chests.

The volume of full groups completing high level fractals, as compared to the stunning mass of players doing world bosses every day on every server, just cannot compare.

If we are to use the market result of the recent update on rare drops in World Boss chest, we can assess the effect of added rares coming from Fractals and how that would affect the market.

Rising Dusk.2408:

John Smith could then determine, using more information but largely the same logic I just used, whether or not improving Fractals loot would have a significant or problematic impact on the economy.

My argument is that it wouldn’t be, and that it would sufficiently reward players of difficult content. That is a very good thing.

Again, I have to agree with Rising Dusk.

The ratio of effort to reward is simply skewed after the last patch. I’m not asking for world boss chests to be nerfed already. I’m just saying it would be nice for fractal runners to see a similar buff to their chests, seeing as how fractals – especially at higher levels – are clearly a greater challenge.

It would be interesting to hear Smith, or one of the other Devs weigh in on this, if even only to counter our points as you – Sir Vincent – have been.

The buff on the chest can mean several things. You meant frequency of the same item, but it could also mean variety of similar item or items of equal value. There’s also the achievement as the reward, not many players can reach 30-40 level fractals.

But never mind all that, if the goal is to make money, of course the practical approach is to do it with less effort.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

But never mind all that, if the goal is to make money, of course the practical approach is to do it with less effort.

But what if you want effort AND material reward?

Fractals get harder… loot gets perceptibly better… it seems like a no-brainer.

In other news, there’s a new thread with folks pretty much in agreement that fractal loot past 30, and into the 40s, has been providing some very poor RNG:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/FoTM-Loot-Tables-Working-as-Intended/first#post1638763

I don’t know. Maybe you’re right, and we just shouldn’t bother with higher level fractals if what we want is good drops. The reason I’m having trouble with this, is because that just seems so counter what fractals were supposed to be from beginning – you progress higher in the fractals, you start seeing better loot. For those that have put all the time and effort into infusing their gear and climbing the fractal levels, it’s a bit of a buzz kill to routinely get the opposite feeling.

Harder content should reward better loot. Reward players for playing well and beating harder content. That’s really all I can say on this topic anymore.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Harder content should reward better loot. Reward players for playing well and beating harder content. That’s really all I can say on this topic anymore.

That’s about all there really was to say from the beginning, probably.

If you just open fractal chests, wait to open arah chests. Its a hell storm of blues. Nice reward for kill lupi or simin.

Fractal loot chests need massive improvements especially lvl 30+. Its a massive effort compared to world “afk” events or the braindead CoF1 even. Yet you get exponentially worse loot compared to either for your time spent in there.

You can get 25s + 2 rares (60 tokens = 2 lvl 70 rares) for a measly 10 min of ur life. Thats still more than i make during some of my latest fractal runs (Maw chest full of greens anyone?)

Dub.1273:

What about Dungeon Chests, same effort but even less rewarding than fractals.

Same effort as world bosses maybe, I think CoF chest loot needs a serious nerf, takes what 5 mins to run it and you can get precursors from the chest? Same effort?
Riiiggghhht…

Fractals is the only challenge this game has and they seem to want us to not want to run it, that’s the feeling I get, cause I seriously don’t want to run it anymore, it’s not worth my time, I’m lvl 48 and it’s more rewarding racing to beat overflow to world boss zergs.

TheAngryLuddite.1834:

Rising Dusk.2408:

Harder content should reward better loot. Reward players for playing well and beating harder content. That’s really all I can say on this topic anymore.

That’s about all there really was to say from the beginning, probably.

Isn’t it that higher level fractals already have access to “better loot” not available in lower level fractals nor in World Boss chest?

The definition of “better loot” is undefined and fully subjective.

Having access into getting Ascended Items and Fractals item is, to me, a better loot than the vendor trash I get in most of the World Boss events.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

TheAngryLuddite.1834:

Rising Dusk.2408:

Harder content should reward better loot. Reward players for playing well and beating harder content. That’s really all I can say on this topic anymore.

That’s about all there really was to say from the beginning, probably.

Isn’t it that higher level fractals already have access to “better loot” not available in lower level fractals nor in World Boss chest?

The definition of “better loot” is undefined and fully subjective.

Having access into getting Ascended Items and Fractals item is, to me, a better loot than the vendor trash I get in most of the World Boss events.

As you said, it’s subjective.

And the subjective position most of us are taking in this thread is that fractal chests are nowhere near as rewarding as world bosses right now, while fractal chests actually present a challenge – particularly at higher fractal levels.

Reasons Fractal Chests are Currently Less Rewarding:

Account bound exotics in the fractal chests (like tribal, ceremonial, and un-prefixed skins) are less worthwhile than TP sellable world boss chest exotic drops.

Receiving only Blues and Greens in a fractal chest at higher levels just plain sucks, and happens frequently. Even if rares aren’t worth a ton right now, it’s nice to have at least one rare drop in a chest that has taken significant effort to achieve.

The other unique rewards in Fractals are either basically useless, or so rare as to be unlikely to drop.

Ascended Ring drops are useless past 30 – you already have the rings you need to progress at that point, you can’t do anything useful with the extras right now (they are account bound, they can’t be salvaged, they can’t be tossed in the mystic forge), and they drop like candy.

By the same token, Fractal Relics are pretty useless for the same reason, considering you’ve probably already bought everything you want with them, and are now simply stockpiling the tokens in case they ever become useful (much like the rings).

Fractal Skins most of us of course want, but the drop rate is pretty minimal, and the chance you’ll actually get the one you want is even lower.

That leaves the off-chance of a Fractal Skin drop the only real draw to repeatedly run fractals in the 20’s and beyond.

There is no reason the hardest content in the game should be less rewarding than world bosses, which present no challenge (unless you count trying to defeat overflows, bouncing between waypoints, and waiting around ikittenone thumbing your nose).

Conclusion:

The general subjective collective opinion in this thread (opposing yours) is that fractal chests at higher levels should be at least as rewarding as world boss chests – which they currently are not, for all the reasons stated above and in this thread.

Fair?

ikittenone = in_a_zone (without the underscores, obviously)

Weirdest ‘kitten’ censor I’ve seen so far.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

TheAngryLuddite.1834:

Rising Dusk.2408:

Harder content should reward better loot. Reward players for playing well and beating harder content. That’s really all I can say on this topic anymore.

That’s about all there really was to say from the beginning, probably.

Isn’t it that higher level fractals already have access to “better loot” not available in lower level fractals nor in World Boss chest?

The definition of “better loot” is undefined and fully subjective.

Having access into getting Ascended Items and Fractals item is, to me, a better loot than the vendor trash I get in most of the World Boss events.

Yesterday doned the shaman at 48 and dropped 2 blue and 1 green is a just reward for you? or the mossman and again 2 blue and 1 green? maw chest a glacial core? no fractal skin and no ring?

In my opinion World Bosses are just completely broken.

Whenever I do one I just start auto-attacking, go browse forums or something and then get my rare.

Active playtime 1-2 minutes.

Wethospu.6437:

In my opinion World Bosses are just completely broken.

Whenever I do one I just start auto-attacking, go browse forums or something and then get my rare.

Active playtime 1-2 minutes.

There is a reason I call those jokes “AFK bosses”

To offer a bit of a counterpoint -

Reward advantages in high level fractals represent a bit of gray area when balanced with the game design. It’s obvious that, while there are disparities in difficulty between different game aspects, the intent is that the rewards should remain somewhat (if not exactly) flat. In other words, if you spend 100 hours doing fractals, you shouldn’t be treated more special than someone spending 100 hours doing dynamic events (or dungeons, or WvW, or temples, etc).

The reward for our doing lvl 40+ fractals is the prestige of being able to say we did lvl 40+ fractals – and fractal weapon skins, which serve as a sign of that accomplishment. If it offers too many perks compared to the rest of the game, then it becomes something that people feel like they have to do – which goes against the idea of “playing the way you want to play.”

My personal idea is that 1, make skins available at lower level Fractals with a lower drop rate or have a chance to get Fractal Weapons (blue for 1-10, green 11-20, rare for 21-30, exotic for 31 and higher.)

For all levels have at least 1 guaranteed exotic because fractals take more work that most world bosses. Also for lvl for lvl 30+ fractals a guarantee at a fractal weapon of rare or higher quality.

I for one would love to get some fractal skins, however having to do 100+ runs to qualify is just annoying, and for some can take months to even get close. Yes we can join higher level fractals but we only get loot at our level. We still face the same danger but get lower end loot. One option would be to also remove personal levels and just unlock Fractals of all levels to all players.

TheAngryLuddite.1834:

ikittenone = in_a_zone (without the underscores, obviously)

Weirdest ‘kitten’ censor I’ve seen so far.

The GW2 forum software is very sensitive to any mention of a certain political party which active in Germany for a few decades of the twentieth century.

I think we can all agree that those guys were a bunch of kittens.

Nikaido.3457:

God no. While I would want for fractal level to be account bound (like guild war’s 1 hard mode) rather than character bound, having any player suddenly joining a FOTM 48 for an increased chance at skins would completely kill it as far as pugging goes. I know I would start restricting myself to guild runs only.

This is exactly what would happen and it’d be the beginning of the “ping your pristine relics on join!”

Sucks to be anyone who used theirs to get rings

Could not agree more and I think Anet should take into consideration the effort some skilled players put in to achieve these levels in fractals, especially the giant level! and reward them as such.
Rather than give them blues and greens while everyone is walking into a map just as Jormag is about to die to grab their precursor.