Fractal Reward System Seems Broken

Fractal Reward System Seems Broken

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Posted by: Lanser.8520

Lanser.8520

The reward systems put in place for Fractals of the Mists seems bad. The mundane-mess of the chests, coupled with how the daily rewards and tokens work, make the rewards from FotM feel very out of place and broken. Fractals was meant to reward players for their ability to complete more difficult levels, but it seems to work in opposite: players at higher levels are punished with longer runs and similar quality loot.

First lets talk about the reward systems.

Chest Rewards

I will be comparing level 48 fractals with [Hard Mode] Urgoz’s Warden, an Elite Dungeon from Guild Wars 1 with Zodiac and Urgoz weapons.

In Fractals of the Mists, the chests share the same problem that other dungeon chests face: they are unrewarding and often just give you trash to vendor later on. The difference in FotM is that, at high levels, these chests remain underwhelming with no reward for an increase in difficulty.

In Urgoz, the chests that could be scattered throughout the dungeon, and at the end, were very much rewarding and often fun to open. The major differences between chests in these two games are as follows.

  • In Urgoz, locked chests had a fairly good chance to drop an item of Rare value. It was always a joy to open a chest and find a rare inside. FotM has a very small chance of rare or exotic items dropping.
  • Futhermore, in Urgoz, there was a chance to drop a random rare skin unique to the dungeon, or other unique skins that were rare and can be sold. In FotM, unique skins do not drop from these chests. On the off chance an exotic drops, it shares a skin with an existing set found fairly commonly in the world, or as a cultural weapon.
  • The final chest of Urgoz dropped crafting materials and a Named Weapon that fell in line with the dungeon. You could use the crafting materials to buy Elite (“legendary”) armor. In FotM, the crafting material drops randomly from mobs, and is not used in creating any armor or weapons.

These issues are very much shared with other dungeons in the game, with the only difference possibly being the difficulty level of dungeons. This leaves chests feeling very stale.

Since the patch in January, the loot from the chests in FotM seems to have taken a hit, and is no where as rewarding as pre-Jan levels. This is, however, only based on personal observations, and it is entirely possible that I have just had terrible RNG rolls for two months straight.

Weapon Skin Rewards

While there is a problem with how and when skins drop, FotM is specifically bad at Weapon Skin rewards.

  • Unlike in many other games, there is no need/want/pass system to distribute skins to players who need it.
  • Unlike with Urgoz in Guild Wars 1, the fractal skins do not drop from the chests of the dungeon, and cannot be traded or sold because they are account bound.
  • Unlike in Guild Wars 2, these skins cannot be bought after a significant time spent doing the dungeon because it is no available as a token reward.
  • These weapons cannot be crafted, and rely completely on a random roll. This punishes players with an unusable weapon more often than not.

Considering the rarity of the weapons compared to the rarity of Zodiac weapons in Guild Wars 1, it does not make sense to have the weapon be both entirely based on RNG and not available with some kind or recipe using tokens.

I proposed a possible recipe to fix this issue here.

Ascended Gear

Ascended Tier rarity feels incomplete when compared to how other tiers of rarity work.

  • You are unable to salvage ascended gear, though you are able to salvage every other type of rarity, including Legendaries.
  • Ascended Gear is unavailable through FotM save Rings. This proves problematic, because FotM is the only content in the game where Ascended Gear is required to progress, yet it is absent from being attainable in the place where it is needed.

It is odd that a FotM player is required to participate in outside content for gear relating specifically to where she is required to run that specific gear.

If no improvements are to be had in the March 26 patch, I very well might be done with this dungeon for sometime. After 3 months of 3+ hours a day inside of it, I am frustrated to no end, with my brains falling out one ear and my patience falling out the other.

This itself is even more frustration, because for these 3 months, I remained persistent and repeatedly ran difficult content, and have not received the proper reward for my effort.

Constantly getting rewards that are subpar or are not proper or usable for your character results in more loathing than feeling content.

This is a problem I hope is fixed or acknowledged, because it has remained for far too long.

edit:tl;dr: Rewards are done in a poor manner, and skins are done in a worst manner.

(edited by Lanser.8520)

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Posted by: Crusader.7460

Crusader.7460

I totaly agree with all statements.System is broken for some reason.After doing fractals for 2 months 2/3 runs per day on 28/38 got atm 106 priscine tokens 50 shards tons of rings and only 10 skin wepons wich is not normal.From those 10 weps i can use 3 and i want diffrent ones.So yes system is broken and rng is just stupid.IF there was at least chance to get skin from all chests from fotm i would say ok i have a challenge to get it and it is possible to get it .Atm i feel that by doing difficult content for over 2 months i got middle finger from anet developers..Also i feel that anet does not listen that fractals are broken and why players are upset.If there is no link between customer and devs playes will start leaving.( i saw a lot of ppl already left from my guild)

P.s i hate doing dailys and geting ascended items that way and 2 commentadions per week is another middle finger to me.Gate content is worst thing in universe.If i play more i should have option to get it quicker.You know like in real life you making time investment you get things faster.

I am warrior and one day i’ll be unicorn with plazma sniper cannon

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Posted by: Gasoline.2570

Gasoline.2570

This is probably to ensure you play the way anet wants you to play.

The balance team is chained to SPVP, and the PVE team is all about producing carnivals

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Posted by: Zeppelin.6832

Zeppelin.6832

Agree %100 on all counts. This dungeon is improving, but it’s still broken.

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Posted by: Burn.5401

Burn.5401

Welcome to RNG Wars 2, OP.

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Posted by: Lanser.8520

Lanser.8520

Agree %100 on all counts. This dungeon is improving, but it’s still broken.

Its a shame for me too. When the dungeon originally released, the content was interesting and different. But after 3 mindless months with little to show, and many broken mechanics at high levels, I’m frustrated to the point of wanting to be done with this dungeon forever.

Even Arah and the frustrations there have not put me off from Arah, nut Fractals has managed this with how its reward and encounters are designed at high levels.

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Posted by: ZilentNight.5089

ZilentNight.5089

Wasnt there a claim made before the start of Guild wars 2 that you would not have to grind a dungeon over and have a “Chance” at a weapon or armor.
I am pretty sure i was promised that i would get some tokens that could be traded in for these rare weapons.
Why was this philosophy dropped when it came to fotm?
Why is it that i can do over a 100 lvl 26+ fractals and still not get a single fractal skin?

I feel when i play or grind for such items, i should see some progress and if people worry that the skins will be very common, then make them worth 2000 fotm tokens, even 3000 but atleast this way we will have a sense of progress. Not a mindless grind and playing with RNG.

(edited by ZilentNight.5089)

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Posted by: The Mexican Cookie.3690

The Mexican Cookie.3690

Your first mistake was comparing GW2 to GW1. Without typing an essay, rares were not worth very much in GW1. Rares in this game have a reasonable worth, and although it is hard to compare the two games economy, I would say Rares in GW2 are worth more than rares were in GW1.

I agree with you on the lack of skins, or how poorly ANet have acted in terms of them. Each dungeon should have at least one unique skin which can drop or be from a chest.

#LoveArrows2013, never forget.

(edited by The Mexican Cookie.3690)

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Posted by: lin.6487

lin.6487

agreed. am/many other are so sick of the fotm RNG. first of all chest reward at high lv are the same at low lv. been doing 38/48 for 1 a month now . many ring never the skin i wanted/ and count less tokens. they really need to improve this dungeon and not nerf it.
for me and many of my friends will give up fotm if this 26th patch don’t give better reward/fix the rng crap.

P.s it seem like the dungeon designer gave up on fotm since there is nothing been done with this dungon other than many nerf.

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Posted by: Sizzle Hint.1820

Sizzle Hint.1820

Farming for a specific skin is a slap in the face, yes.

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Posted by: Lanser.8520

Lanser.8520

Wasnt there a claim made before the start of Guild wars 2 that you would not have to grind a dungeon over and have a “Chance” at a weapon or armor.

They did. The difference with FotM is that it isn’t really considered a “dumgeon” in the same sense as Arah or AC by the devs.

Your first mistake was comparing GW2 to GW1. Without typing an essay, rares were not worth very much in GW1. Rares in this game have a reasonable worth, and although it is hard to compare the two games economy, I would say Rares in GW2 are worth more than rares were in GW1.

I agree with you on the lack of skins, or how poorly ANet have acted in terms of them. Each dungeon should have at least one unique skin which can drop or be from a chest.

i beg to differ. The rares that dropped often had an interesting componet or and often had the best stats, comparable to exotics in Guild Wars 2. You could either salvage for the component, or you had a possibility to use it on a different character. Rares in Guild Wars 2 are generally uninteresting to me, only for ectos and not really for any other purpose.

The interest in rares was compounded by the skins they could offer you, which was the primary focus for their mention. Zodiac weapons could drop out of chests in the dungeon if you were lucky, and then could be sold if the skin was undesirable, giving you progress towards getting the one you wanted.

I also remember getting pronged fans and other types of skins that did not immediately put me off. I saved many of these rare items, while I salvage or mystic forge most rare and exotics in Guild Wars 2.

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Posted by: The Mexican Cookie.3690

The Mexican Cookie.3690

Wasnt there a claim made before the start of Guild wars 2 that you would not have to grind a dungeon over and have a “Chance” at a weapon or armor.

They did. The difference with FotM is that it isn’t really considered a “dumgeon” in the same sense as Arah or AC by the devs.

Your first mistake was comparing GW2 to GW1. Without typing an essay, rares were not worth very much in GW1. Rares in this game have a reasonable worth, and although it is hard to compare the two games economy, I would say Rares in GW2 are worth more than rares were in GW1.

I agree with you on the lack of skins, or how poorly ANet have acted in terms of them. Each dungeon should have at least one unique skin which can drop or be from a chest.

i beg to differ. The rares that dropped often had an interesting componet or and often had the best stats, comparable to exotics in Guild Wars 2. You could either salvage for the component, or you had a possibility to use it on a different character. Rares in Guild Wars 2 are generally uninteresting to me, only for ectos and not really for any other purpose.

The interest in rares was compounded by the skins they could offer you, which was the primary focus for their mention. Zodiac weapons could drop out of chests in the dungeon if you were lucky, and then could be sold if the skin was undesirable, giving you progress towards getting the one you wanted.

I also remember getting pronged fans and other types of skins that did not immediately put me off. I saved many of these rare items, while I salvage or mystic forge most rare and exotics in Guild Wars 2.

I guess this is just a case of varying wealth between the two of us. I wouldn’t have valued anything that Urgoz had to offer as valuable unless you got that perfect OS drop.

#LoveArrows2013, never forget.

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Posted by: Syprus Soulslayer.1640

Syprus Soulslayer.1640

I 100% Agree with OP, Fractals needs some serious fixing.. at the very least add the existing Ascended gear to the merchants already.. It’s so stupid that you cannot get ascended accessories or necklaces from FoTM Merchants instead you’re forced to do dailys and guild missions. Stupidest idea ever, why even make a dungeon that has a “new Damage” type if you can not even obtain the items required to progress by participating in that Dungeon.
Area Net, PLEASE FIX Fractals or add the existing items to FoTM merchants I don’t care if it cost 3k regular or 50 – 100 pristine relics at least make there a way for us to get the gear we NEED and put these useless plethora of tokens to use.

[Evil] Blood Bath Nbeyond – 80 Warrior
[Evil] Nazarus Soulswag – 80 Mesmer
Devona’s Rest – Previously HoD / Anvil Rock

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Posted by: Myth Shaia.4856

Myth Shaia.4856

It’s not just that though is it? I mean just did lvl30 today for example and got an infused ring as a reward. Lvl30 and an infused ring drops…let’s see now…anyone at lvl30 still need an infused ring? Spares are covered from 26-29 anyway. Annnnnd, can’t do anything with the rings except sell them for less than 5s because really…how much space do you want to waste on them, and how many more alts do you want to grind through fractals as well…?

C’mon Anet give us a decent fractal reward system and something to do with the relics and pristine relics…and crystallised shards and vials that still drop at lvl 30…o.o

…from elsewhere…
“I am not a complete idiot, there are some components missing still!” …

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Posted by: lcpdragonslayer.7895

lcpdragonslayer.7895

Farming for a specific skin is a slap in the face, yes.

Consider a casual player who only has the time required to run a 20+ fractal (which if you’re incredibly lucky is 1 hour but can take 3+ hours if you’re stuck in a terrible PuG) in the weekends.

At this point I’d have a better chance of getting struck by lightning by the end of the year than getting the one skin I want.

EDIT: Why can’t they implement the voucher system that they’re using for the Fused skins in the Black Lion chests? At least then you’re not shafted if you get a weapon you can’t use.

(edited by lcpdragonslayer.7895)

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Posted by: Waraxx.4286

Waraxx.4286

now i’m not against RNG in and of itself, BUT when they put RNG in RNG ( yo dawg) it’s way to much.

  • RNG decides if u get a fractal weapon in the first place, (i’m not against this)
  • RNG decides what weapon you get and you can’t swap or sell the one you get. (this is the problem)

my favorite professions is guardian and elementalists. receiving a pistal or a rifle is no less than a humiliation to the amount of time that i had to put into it. why can’t i choose what weapon i receive? like you did with the fused weapons.

this is stopid, i gave up playing fotm long ago realizing the amount of time i had to put into the dungeon to get 2 daggers for my elementalist and a hammer for my guardian. so far i’ve been lucky to get 2 drops that i can use ( staff and spear) but i have way cooler skins than those. so they’ve just ended up in my bank sitting there for a day when i feel that i want them.

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Posted by: ddak.3150

ddak.3150

So, if someone who comes to game right now needs 2 ascended rings, an amulet, and two earrings – that’s total of 170 laurels, + 100 ectoplasms, if he doesn’t want to rely on rng drops.
1 laurel per day, that is almost half of the year for those items, without skipping ONE single day. So when someone reads this, put numbers on paper – wtf? Grinding dailys for half of the year without skipping one day- not for full set, but for accessories- its’ sick…
Not to mention, if you do daily every second day ( RL commitments, and stuff) that would be a year.

Daily quests doesn’t have anything to do with fractal dungeon. Whole game is a massive epic grind, and luck based – lodestones, cores, precursors,fractals skins, dyes, pets…

Almost forgot – someone wants infused ring? Cool, but it requires vials and mats that are also RNG drops ( nothing unusual for arena net) from fractals so you can infuse the ring…

(edited by ddak.3150)

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Posted by: Lanser.8520

Lanser.8520

So, if someone who comes to game right now needs 2 ascended rings, an amulet, and two earrings – that’s total of 170 laurels, + 100 ectoplasms, if he doesn’t want to rely on rng drops.
1 laurel per day, that is almost half of the year for those items, without skipping ONE single day. So when someone reads this, put numbers on paper – wtf? Grinding dailys for half of the year without skipping one day- not for full set, but for accessories- its’ sick…
Not to mention, if you do daily every second day ( RL commitments, and stuff) that would be a year.

Daily quests doesn’t have anything to do with fractal dungeon. Whole game is a massive epic grind, and luck based – lodestones, cores, precursors,fractals skins, dyes, pets…

Almost forgot – someone wants infused ring? Cool, but it requires vials and mats that are also RNG drops ( nothing unusual for arena net) from fractals so you can infuse the ring…

While the laurel system has its own problems (cant put in more effort for faster results), at least it has a system where you can go and make slow steady progress. Oh it will take 30 days to get the accessory? Okay its tedious, but one day at a time and I’ll reach my goal!

But fractal skins. Wow I’m 3 months in and don’t have my skin, while my friend over there has all the skins they wanted after 1 week because they got lucky? Laurel system gives you a goal, and you can’t complain about not being able to make progress towards it if you a diligent. But fractals offers no such progress.

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Posted by: Thz.7569

Thz.7569

It looks as though many frequenters have dwindled off for the time being. Another patch has come by with nothing being done. It’s also pretty clear that even though we’re vocal, we’re still a minority; This can be seen if you keep up with QAs and interviews because never is there any mention of fotm at all.

I’m one of those that have run fotm many more times than I want to think of and have only received 2 skins. On a side note, I decided to test my luck and bought 200g worth of BL Keys on patch day and didn’t receive a skin.

As you can see, luck is obviously -not- on my side. However, I have most definitely put in the work and it’s demoralizing to have nothing to show for it.

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Posted by: thisisu.7504

thisisu.7504

I agree with this topic. Something really should be done to improve FOTM.

Thisisu – Mesmer – FotM 51
Thisisudax – Guardian – FotM 49
Fractal Videos: http://www.youtube.com/thisisudax

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Posted by: soulcakeduck.7036

soulcakeduck.7036

With the new hard cap preventing groups from killing Maw 50+, I believe ArenaNet likely intends to revisit rewards for FotM at least at higher levels. I think it will be very likely that these higher levels (once they’re again accessible) will end up having a noticeably better chance to drop Fractal Weapon skins, possibly even a guaranteed chance at a skin (once all Ascended gear is in, on the “hardest” floor with non-fatal Agony?).

That could be a while. They want to phase Ascended gear in over time…

And that means Fractals remain an oddly unrewarding, random number generated casino-gamble for months (they already have). I really do appreciate that weapon skins can be rare instead of handed out to everyone who steps inside, but this is not a nice way to treat the customers willing to dedicate themselves to the long run, especially in the GW franchise.

So. Why should I play FotM before that next patch?—that’s been the question for FotM at every step.

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Posted by: Lanser.8520

Lanser.8520

With the new hard cap preventing groups from killing Maw 50+, I believe ArenaNet likely intends to revisit rewards for FotM at least at higher levels. I think it will be very likely that these higher levels (once they’re again accessible) will end up having a noticeably better chance to drop Fractal Weapon skins, possibly even a guaranteed chance at a skin (once all Ascended gear is in, on the “hardest” floor with non-fatal Agony?).

That could be a while. They want to phase Ascended gear in over time…

And that means Fractals remain an oddly unrewarding, random number generated casino-gamble for months (they already have). I really do appreciate that weapon skins can be rare instead of handed out to everyone who steps inside, but this is not a nice way to treat the customers willing to dedicate themselves to the long run, especially in the GW franchise.

So. Why should I play FotM before that next patch?—that’s been the question for FotM at every step.

I keep telling myself that they will come back to fix FotM and the reward system, especially after the backlash that RNG rings got initially, the backlash that RNG precursors continue to get, and the fact that the original Guild Wars 2 dungeons were designed to avoid this very problem.

One person in the other Fotm thread summed up how I pretty much have felt for a few months now.

My primary progression team disbanded several weeks ago just from sheer exhaustion of the grind for something that was never getting any closer. Not a single fractal is fun enough to warrant the 100+ odd runs to even have a statistical chance of getting something we want.

I’m just completely exhasted of that dungeon, and the little bit of energy I had left was just shattered by the recent Ranger nerf. So now my profession is pretty much in shambles and no progress is being made in FotM.

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Posted by: Rising Dusk.2408

Rising Dusk.2408

I enjoy Fractals and the difficulty associated with 48, and that’s the only reason I run them. If by some miracle I get a weapon I can use (Can’t use my 3 Fractal hammers, woo!), then that’s icing on the cake, but otherwise the rewards are abysmal and it is an absurdly inefficient use of one’s time.

I can’t bring myself to do lower level fractals on any other character because it is simultaneously unrewarding and unchallenging. I will likely never progress another character because of this.

[VZ] Valor Zeal – Stormbluff Isle – Looking for steady, casual-friendly NA raiders!

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Posted by: Sovta.4719

Sovta.4719

I enjoy Fractals and the difficulty associated with 48, and that’s the only reason I run them. If by some miracle I get a weapon I can use (Can’t use my 3 Fractal hammers, woo!), then that’s icing on the cake, but otherwise the rewards are abysmal and it is an absurdly inefficient use of one’s time.

I can’t bring myself to do lower level fractals on any other character because it is simultaneously unrewarding and unchallenging. I will likely never progress another character because of this.

Same, i’m doing it mostly for challenge, even when i get good reward (exotic) it’s account bound and most of the time with “weird” stat combo. >:(

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Posted by: Mckeone.9804

Mckeone.9804

^^ you mean you got your ecto drops.

I second the OP. I would love to hear from Robert if there are any plans for revisiting the system, even if he can’t confirm any details.

At least then I’ll know whether I want to work on gearing up my alts for more fractal runs or WvW.

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Posted by: Lanser.8520

Lanser.8520

^^ you mean you got your ecto drops.

I second the OP. I would love to hear from Robert if there are any plans for revisiting the system, even if he can’t confirm any details.

At least then I’ll know whether I want to work on gearing up my alts for more fractal runs or WvW.

I remember Robert saying he doesn’t have control over fractal rewards. He does more balancing of encounters, and most of the fractal encounters are pretty enrtaining before you hit them massive health pool wall.

If I could progress towards a fractal weapon, I would probably still run FotM casually. Instead of everyday for the best drop chance, I could just take a break and go doing jumping puzzles, or WvW for the day, or attempt to get Dusk so I can finish my Twilight and be that awkward Ranger with Twilight on her back.

As it stands right now, I can’t really do any of that because FotM demands my time because of the reward system.

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Posted by: eMKay.4028

eMKay.4028

HAH – I have thought about exactly same ideas! That’s what can fix the zombie grind we started to have in Fractals – ANET, the nation looks at you!

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Posted by: Alexiel.4832

Alexiel.4832

Farming for a specific skin is a slap in the face, yes.

That`s how i feel now…And i am not a masochist to farm another 500 Fractals for something i can`t even use.
Really…please do something

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Posted by: Ze Dos Cavalos.6132

Ze Dos Cavalos.6132

After doing 1000+ fractals i can say from my experience that you make money faster doing lvl20 daily runs.
In lvl20 daily runs i have got numerous exotics (some worth 5g) i fell i get more rares and the runs are faster.
To help a guildie i have done a lvl10 run and i got a celestial dye.
My last lvl32 run i got 2 rares in the whole run and 1 T6 mat.
My last lvl48 run i got like 3 rares and some cheap cores.

I believe that the reward system for fractals above lvl30 is broken because i make much more Money with less effort doing lvl20 dailys.

[DIE] Death is Energy

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Posted by: Plague.3174

Plague.3174

Is an old topic but…there would be a simple solution that maybe would be better and which they are already using in the game (story missions).

Give us a choice. If someone is lucky to find a ring or a skin in that chest, add 2 more and let him choose which one from the 3 he wants to get. It’s simple and I found it strange in the first place that they implemented it in the story missions where nobody gives a kitten about the drop (not talking about keys or rare stuff but the armor/wep drop)

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Posted by: SnoodBeAR.5286

SnoodBeAR.5286

Rewards were probably intended to be sheit because Anet hates people that put effort into their game, but loves people that log on 20mins a day for a world boss!

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Posted by: Folk.2093

Folk.2093

A-Net will just ignore this thread like every other fractal thread.

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Posted by: Sovta.4719

Sovta.4719

Rewards were probably intended to be sheit because Anet hates people that put effort into their game, but loves people that log on 20mins a day for a world boss!

This!
And that’s why they lost more then half of playerbase. (that and some pvp failes)

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Posted by: Lanser.8520

Lanser.8520

Give us a choice. If someone is lucky to find a ring or a skin in that chest, add 2 more and let him choose which one from the 3 he wants to get. It’s simple and I found it strange in the first place that they implemented it in the story missions where nobody gives a kitten about the drop (not talking about keys or rare stuff but the armor/wep drop)

I think I’ve seen a few people have this idea, and choice would probably be much better than what we have now, but its still not a great system either, since it would still rely on some moderately heavy RNG. It would still be possible to not have the weapon you want drop, but I guess it would stop the constant duplicate drops.

I would probably still like something rewarding effort, instead of tickets. Tickets means you get to pick your reward with no extra effort, and doesn’t have any form of retroactivity. A recipe would take longer and require more work (good, play RNG for fast rewards, or progress slowly for some guarantees) but would at least give the exhausted fractal runners a head start as a reward for their previous effort.

I bolded that because I actually really like the way that sounded.

Still, any change to alleviate the pain would be welcome. Hell, maybe even combine this with a recipe.

A-Net will just ignore this thread like every other fractal thread.

Funny you say that… (March 25th OP date, Feb 14 Recipe Post date)
But in all seriousness, I’m pretty sure some like Robert constantly see or hear the fractals complaints, but I think the teams are just all working on the temporary and pretty casual monthly updates instead, because it reaches a larger player base and makes more money than fixing the reward structure and encounters of an existing instance.

As disheartening as it is, I’m not expecting any changes to fractals until the time they bring out a big fractal update (probably new maps and infusions for other ascended gear). That could mean anywhere between next month, but very likely farther down the road, because the Living Story has their attention.

edit: Also dat necro. You must be a talented necromancer, though I hear minion builds aren’t that strong these days.