Guild Wars 2

It’s really a probability thing.

I’m usually not picky because it is so hard to get a group already. But thing you do realize is dungeon have a tendency to be smoother if people are playing certain class, higher level, higher achievement point, experienced etc etc.

laokoko.7403:

Nothing more to say. Just because there is 1 good run, don’t mean there are many other bad runs.

I’d like to increase my chance of having smoother run.

Then play like a team. You don’t need an optimized DPS team to have a smooth and quick Fractals run. You just don’t.

laokoko.7403:

It’s really a probability thing.

I’m usually not picky because it is so hard to get a group already. But thing you do realize is dungeon have a tendency to be smoother if people are playing certain class, higher level, higher achievement point, experienced etc etc.

Demanding people to be level 80 is fine in my opinion. Though achievement points are no way to measure skill in the slightest. There are a lot of players that simply do the dailies every single day, and thus have more achievement points than others. That does not make them good players. Likewise, there are players that play one class only, and thus they miss out on several story and skill achievements. That doesn’t mean they are bad players. I personally pay little attention to people’s achievement points.

Neko.9021:

And besides, the melee character has a Warrior to help him too. Look at that! They can both hold aggro together, and I’ll offer midrange support as I make a few dagger stabs (see, I can be melee too!) and then run off in deathshroud back to midrange (which still says “range” in the name). It couldn’t possibly be that some people in this party dichotomy are benefiting more by the sum total of work than others. Hmm.

How many people do you need in close combat really? Isn’t two enough? You make it sound as if anyone not in close combat, does not contribute in any way. And that is simply not the case. There’s condition damage, there’s support, there’s keeping enemies crippled, chilled, vulnerable and weakened. And you do not need to be in close combat for those things. The whole point of mid-range fighting, is doing a lot of close combat damage, while staying outside the reach of the enemy. He may try to chase you, but you avoid taking damage while still doing massive damage to him. How would taking all that damage be better by default? It’s just another strategy for combat, and a pretty smart way as well.

And when I’m doing the Urban Battlegrounds fractal, I’m keeping my team alive by dropping Spectral Wall and other fear skills to keep the mobs away from hitting my party. I can help my team to kill a mob before they even come into close range. Isn’t that contributing? It’s not all DPS. Sure you can make every party composition full DPS, but the content does not demand it, and it’s rather boring.

And how do you measure exactly that the warrior or guardian is contributing more than the necro or the ranger? Wouldn’t they be flat on their back without support from their team?

I’ve seen plenty of warriors and guardians charge into that final mob at Urban Battlegrounds, and get absolutely decimated, while the softer ranged classes take out the mobs before they are even close enough to do any real harm. It all comes down to team work, and playing your class well. And if you play your class well, the type of class isn’t all that important. I still wouldn’t take a full party of the same class of course, but that is a different matter. I think you need to have a bit of diversity in your team.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Though achievement points are no way to measure skill in the slightest.

So 2 player. 1 with 500 acheiemvent, another with 5000.

You telling me the “probability” of them to be skilled is the same?

^Picking out a very specific counter case to counter an entire argument is a very common strategy to argue on the internet, ie “some-one-one can be playing on one char so he has less points so he might be as good as all though others that played way longer with 5000 points”. People don’t seem to understand the distinction between probability and possibility.

I say just let it go.

laokoko.7403:

So 2 player. 1 with 500 acheiemvent, another with 5000.
You telling me the “probability” of them to be skilled is the same?

I’ve never run into a 500 achievement points player when looking for people for Fractals level 20. But I myself have about 5800 achievement points, and recently I ran into a player that had 7000 achievement points. Does that make him a better player than me?

You tell me.

^ You might run into one guy I know, then it’s a definitely yes.

How many people do you need in close combat really?

everyone. just look at obal’s fractal 48s.

There’s condition damage

nope

support

reflects, aegis, protection, might and fury are the support that matters

crippled, chilled, vulnerable and weakened

vulnerable yes, but how does slowing their movement matter if you’re in melee? and how does slower cooldowns from chill matter when AI mobs have no cooldowns?

I’ve seen plenty of warriors and guardians charge into that final mob at Urban Battlegrounds, and get absolutely decimated, while the softer ranged classes take out the mobs before they are even close enough to do any real harm.

They died because you were being lazy, camping behind them and not supporting them.

colesy.8490:

everyone. just look at obal’s fractal 48s.

But this is fractal level 20.

colesy.8490:

reflects, aegis, protection, might and fury are the support that matters

Wow.

colesy.8490:

They died because you were being lazy, camping behind them and not supporting them.

Or, they died because charging head first into a mob armed with various stationary artillery is generally a bad idea. You could also pull them away from their weapons, take cover behind the statue, and group them before you nuke them all.

Just because the guardians are overconfident in their abilities, is no reason for the rest of the team to abandon all strategy. A good player knows if they themselves can handle a giant onslaught of melee mobs or not. And if you have several ranged classes in your team, helping them nuke a large mob is probably going to result in less casualties. Some times it’s good to pick mobs apart, rather than engage all of them at once.

I can understand perfectly why an elementalist or ranger would not want to charge blindly after the guardians into a giant mosh-pit filled with pointy swords.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

laokoko.7403:

So 2 player. 1 with 500 acheiemvent, another with 5000.
You telling me the “probability” of them to be skilled is the same?

I’ve never run into a 500 achievement points player when looking for people for Fractals level 20. But I myself have about 5800 achievement points, and recently I ran into a player that had 7000 achievement points. Does that make him a better player than me?

You tell me.

If there are one thousand people with 7000 points and another thousand with 5800, then yes overall the average of 7000 group will be better than 5800. Again, probability and probability, sample size and data point. Talking about matters such as achievement points and skill is about the bulk average, not about certain individual, ie yourself, as a standard.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

And if you have several ranged classes in your team.

There are no ranged classes in gw2!
Everyone should go ahead and melee mobs!
If you range mobs while the rest of your team melee you are just a waste. I would rather die melee than surviving in range

Anubarak.3012:

There are no ranged classes in gw2!
Everyone should go ahead and melee mobs!
If you range mobs while the rest of your team melee you are just a waste. I would rather die melee than surviving in range

That seems to be the general mentality, and it is absolutely stunning to me. I wonder what the devs would have to say about that.

I personally have not played Fractals at levels of 40 and upwards. But do people generally charge head first into that mob on Urban Battlegrounds when doing higher levels Fractals?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Staff is one of the best weapons for the necro, so it is no wonder that almost all necros use it to some extend.

No its really not. The only reason its widely used is because its 1200 range. Its pretty much essential in pvp for putrid mark. But using staff as a main weapon in pve is awful.

spoj.9672:

No its really not. The only reason its widely used is because its 1200 range. Its pretty much essential in pvp for putrid mark. But using staff as a main weapon in pve is awful.

Why? Isn’t it the perfect weapon to quickly apply lots of conditions and tag lots of enemies?

I’ve seen plenty of warriors and guardians charge into that final mob at Urban Battlegrounds, and get absolutely decimated, while the softer ranged classes take out the mobs before they are even close enough to do any real harm.

They died because you were being lazy, camping behind them and not supporting them.

I would like to add, that line of warding and ring of warding should be used so that no one takes any melee damage >_>

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

spoj.9672:

No its really not. The only reason its widely used is because its 1200 range. Its pretty much essential in pvp for putrid mark. But using staff as a main weapon in pve is awful.

Why? Isn’t it the perfect weapon to quickly apply lots of conditions and tag lots of enemies?

Tagging, sure. Doing damage no. You do better dmg with scepter dagger on a condition/hybrid build and you have almost as much aoe. But going full condition build is terrible.

That’s why I run a hybrid. I tag enemies with conditions as they come towards me and walk into marks, and then quickly switch to scepter + dagger on a hybrid build, for DPS. The condition damage is a bonus.

But does that make the staff a bad weapon? I think it’s excellent. Especially if you are running a Fear build.

swiftpaw.6397:

I’ve seen plenty of warriors and guardians charge into that final mob at Urban Battlegrounds, and get absolutely decimated, while the softer ranged classes take out the mobs before they are even close enough to do any real harm.

They died because you were being lazy, camping behind them and not supporting them.

I would like to add, that line of warding and ring of warding should be used so that no one takes any melee damage >_>

Nah, camping with my wrongbow is much better.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Anubarak.3012:

There are no ranged classes in gw2!
Everyone should go ahead and melee mobs!
If you range mobs while the rest of your team melee you are just a waste. I would rather die melee than surviving in range

That seems to be the general mentality, and it is absolutely stunning to me. I wonder what the devs would have to say about that.

I personally have not played Fractals at levels of 40 and upwards. But do people generally charge head first into that mob on Urban Battlegrounds when doing higher levels Fractals?

Charging head first – no
Meleeing – yes

The strategy is to pull mobs to a line of sight spot and have guardians use line or ring of warding, warriors use mace 5, and others use blinds or other cc skills (fear is counterproductive) they have at the los spot and then you watch them melt with good dps. It’s not any different than what you should be doing in any other dungeon. Here is a video of what it looks like at 48 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKuxoM0o9OM

Meleeing is the best for this game. It has a big learning curve for things but it is better. You can spend 10min ranging lupi compared to 1min meleeing. That is an extreme example but other bosses would take several times faster to melee and fractals is no different. You will learn more meleeing something a couple times than ranging it 100×. Also, I’d rather wipe at meleeing something like mossman after 2min than after 8min ranging any day.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

But does that make the staff a bad weapon? I think it’s excellent. Especially if you are running a Fear build.

Please tell me you’re not using fear on groups of mobs.

Next up, the benefits of a minion master in dungeons!

Nikaido.3457:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

But does that make the staff a bad weapon? I think it’s excellent. Especially if you are running a Fear build.

Please tell me you’re not using fear on groups of mobs.

That is a situational thing. Incoming mobs that attack the party head on can be perfectly kept busy with a spectral wall, which they mindless charge into.

And if too many enemies go after me, a fear can be helpful to clear the area. But no, I’m not the kind of necro that constantly fears whole mobs away while the rest of the team is trying to hit them.

But why this elitist attitude against other classes in general? Are warriors and guardians really the only way you folks want to play?

obal.3218:

Charging head first – no
Meleeing – yes

The strategy is to pull mobs to a line of sight spot and have guardians use line or ring of warding, warriors use mace 5, and others use blinds or other cc skills (fear is counterproductive) they have at the los spot and then you watch them melt with good dps. It’s not any different than what you should be doing in any other dungeon.

That is one strategy, not THE exact strategy everyone should be doing that encounter. But I suppose we are in agreement then. Pulling mobs to a spot that is situational better for the rest of the party, instead of charging head first into them, is generally a better idea.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Nikaido.3457:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

But does that make the staff a bad weapon? I think it’s excellent. Especially if you are running a Fear build.

Please tell me you’re not using fear on groups of mobs.

That is a situational thing. Incoming mobs that attack the party head on can be perfectly kept busy with a spectral wall, which they mindless charge into.

And if too many enemies go after me, a fear can be helpful to clear the area. But no, I’m not the kind of necro that constantly fears whole mobs away while the rest of the team is trying to hit them.

But why this elitist attitude against other classes in general? Are warriors and guardians really the only way you folks want to play?

Ah here we go. It’s time to play the ’ you’re an elitist scumbag’ card. My personal favorite.

swiftpaw.6397:

Ah here we go. It’s time to play the ’ you’re an elitist scumbag’ card. My personal favorite.

I’m not the one insisting everyone should avoid rangers and low armor classes in Fractals. I’m open to inviting everyone. But it seems a majority of the people posting in this thread are against playing with other classes because one strategy is superior in their opinion, and thus the only viable way to play the game. Is that not a form of elitism? Or if you don’t like that word, closed minded?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

But why this elitist attitude against other classes in general? Are warriors and guardians really the only way you folks want to play?

Well, when all the necro players are staff camping and fear using, it doesn’t really give a good image. Dagger mh with wells necro are okay, they lack cleaving but they can bring decent contributions to a group. But since they almost only exist in the hands of people who already speedrun with other characters and know what they’re doing, again, necro isn’t a desirable pug class to let into your party.

That is one strategy, not THE exact strategy everyone should be doing that encounter.

No, that’s the best strategy for ascalon. It works with other classes, you don’t need a full war/g group for that. Thieves can maintain ton of blinds which are useful for these LoS bursts, lightning hammer ele can spam blind and also have their stunning field which can be a replacement for ring of warding stopping the initial burst from the mobs while the npc aggro etc.
Never tried it but I guess that other classes skills like Muddy Terrain from ranger could also work decently on that one.
You don’t necessarily need the guardian ring/line of warding, this is a general strategy that a lot of group composition can apply decently.

Not LoS-ing at lvl 48 is a kick offense in most groups I’ve been in, including pugs. Most of the better pugs know that you should LoS and if you don’t at this level you’ll get kicked. If you don’t get kicked for not LoS-ing chances are the group that doesn’t know/care will be your “best” (ohoh) 48 ride.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

swiftpaw.6397:

Ah here we go. It’s time to play the ’ you’re an elitist scumbag’ card. My personal favorite.

I’m not the one insisting everyone should avoid rangers and low armor classes in Fractals. I’m open to inviting everyone. But it seems a majority of the people posting in this thread are against playing with other classes because one strategy is superior in their opinion, and thus the only viable way to play the game. Is that not a form of elitism? Or if you don’t like that word, closed minded?

No we are against stupid tactics.

In a two Guardian three Warrior group, you can replace one of the Warriors with an alternate DPS class (DPS Guardian, LH Elementalist, Backstab Thief, Dagger Necro, Spotter Ranger, Grenadier Engineer) or a Mesmer for utility. Hell, you could replace two Warriors with two different DPS characters. Warriors are probably “the best” and some are considered to be worse than others, but if you really want to push a class to its limits while still being close to optimal, options exist for all the classes. The thing is, however, that after getting to high level FOTM (46+) and running lots of dungeons every day, you begin to realize that it’s just better to take some classes than others.

Personally I hope that other classes get things that Guardians have – group stability, projectile reflects, AoE pulls, area CC that isn’t Fear (since Fear pushes mobs away and thus works against trying to melee DPS cleave mobs down), once they start adding new skills, since right now, it’ true, high level FOTM basically mandates multiple Guardians to have a smooth run. And yes, the truth is Warriors are probably the only class you want in FOTM if you want smooth, quick runs. But it is possible for other classes to work within the system and still be helpful. But regardless of all of these things, playing a condition damage ranged character is NOT one of the ways to help contribute optimally. Especially one that tries to use Fear to control mobs when the optimal way to deal with groups is to pull them together in a ball, not to spread them out.

I think you should try to get yourself to FOTM 40+ and try to observe the things that contribute to a smooth run. You should also compare your own performace to the performance and kill times of others on youtube, and see what you could improve. Because right now, I can tell you that you have some well-intentioned but ill-informed opinions on how to run dungeons effectively. It’s not your fault. ANet put all of these interesting diverse ability sets on stuf like Necro Staff or Ele Staff, but in fact most of their abilities are better served in WvW or PvP. The issue is that GW2 implements a lot of archetypical game concepts from other RPGs, but implements them in such a way into such a system that they don’t work as well as they would in other games. A Ranged CCer who uses Damage over time effects in large AoEs is a staple of many games (I always loved to play this type of character), and it’s still very good in GW2 WvW. It’s just sorta bad for PvE Dungeons and Fractals as the game is set up.

Basically, look at Obal’s videos and Strife’s videos on youtube, and you will see what it means to do dungeons efficiently and effectively. When I do a dungeon, I try to emulate those tactics with my guild because I know that these tactics will not only make the dungeon run go faster, but will make it smoother and more enjoyable as well. And the truth is, non-FOTM dungeons can be done with something like Necro, Engie, Ranger, Thief, and Ele, and as long as you properly utilize projectile blocks, LoS, and Melee Stacking and Melee DPS, you should be able to get good fast dungeon runs.

Yeah I’ve seen a few instances of what the OP posted.
… it’s not uncommon for ppl’s mouths to write checks their kittens can’t cash.
Luckily they’ve been few and far between from my view…

Warzaw.2708:

As a ranger, I’m offended by his statement to not play with us.

No, but seriously.

I’m more offended by Neko’s statement above yours implying that Guardian/War is the only melee classes. Bull kitten, my Ranger spends more time in Melee (than my Guardian) against more dangerous bosses every day. It’s the only way to get decent DPS out of it.

The only thing in the game I won’t melee is Champ Aboms (massive damage 180 degree instant Cleave as an auto-attack … no telegraph… wtf anet?) and Lyssa’s Gorrilla

ilr.9675:

Warzaw.2708:

As a ranger, I’m offended by his statement to not play with us.

No, but seriously.

I’m more offended by Neko’s statement above yours implying that Guardian/War is the only melee classes. Bull kitten, my Ranger spends more time in Melee (than my Guardian) against more dangerous bosses every day. It’s the only way to get decent DPS out of it.

The only thing in the game I won’t melee is Champ Aboms (massive damage 180 degree instant Cleave as an auto-attack … no telegraph… wtf anet?) and Lyssa’s Gorrilla

Wut. I mentioned Spotter Ranger, alluding to Brazil and Guang’s Ranger builds. The ones that use Sword/Warhorn. I have been advocating Melee Ranger to my friends for the longest time now. In fact, I even mention in my list of builds various alternate melee options other than Warrior and Guardian, such as Backstab Thief and Dagger Necro. There are many people in the GW2 community that you can accuse of advocating only Warrior and Guardian, but my post was literally about how, even though these two are arguably optimal, that there are alternate melee options available that will still function decently.

ilr.9675:

Champ Aboms (massive damage 180 degree instant Cleave as an auto-attack … no telegraph… wtf anet?)

Do you play with goggles on or something? Abominations have possibly the most telegraphed attack(s) in the game.

That’s fine too…

But hey a Guardian can also play at mid-range if they’re full boon Duration spec’d Buff bots. …maybe depends on the dungeon… but saying that a downed guardian is always some Martyr for maximinzing the group’s DPS is just malarky. If he was as “Elite” as his first comments implied, he wouldn’t have been downed at all. My Guardian has 900 healing and less than 15K hp but rarely gets downed. It’s a class that’s literally invulnerable to everything if you can avoid Panicking. Remembering to change utils between every fight also helps. … so no, the guy in the Screenshot doesn’t get a free pass just b/c he’s expected to be in Melee.

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

ilr.9675:

Champ Aboms (massive damage 180 degree instant Cleave as an auto-attack … no telegraph… wtf anet?)

Do you play with goggles on or something?

You’re thinking of that big wind-up narrow cone just like the Crusher does. No I’m talking about the Abom’s auto-attack and how it scales up with more than 10 people nearby. It’s a 3/4 second attack that does atleast 20k against targets with 2000 toughness. A lot of time Evades don’t even work because of the proximity skill lag induced by too many players in the area.

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

ilr.9675:

Champ Aboms (massive damage 180 degree instant Cleave as an auto-attack … no telegraph… wtf anet?)

Do you play with goggles on or something?

Strangely, I just read this. The Champion Abominations… have some of the easiest telegraphs in the game. And the best way to kill them is to stand behind them so their cleave attack doesn’t hit you.

ilr.9675:

That’s fine too…

But hey a Guardian can also play at mid-range if they’re full boon Duration spec’d Buff bots. …maybe depends on the dungeon… but saying that a downed guardian is always some Martyr for maximinzing the group’s DPS is just malarky. If he was as “Elite” as his first comments implied, he wouldn’t have been downed at all. My Guardian has 900 healing and less than 15K hp but rarely gets downed. It’s a class that’s literally invulnerable to everything if you can avoid Panicking and change utils between every fight. … so no, the guy in the Screenshot doesn’t get a free pass just b/c he’s expected to be in Melee.

Do not ignore my response. I am actually really offended that you accused me of saying Warriors and Guardians are the only Melee classes in the game, when my post literally said the opposite.

ilr.9675:

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

ilr.9675:

Champ Aboms (massive damage 180 degree instant Cleave as an auto-attack … no telegraph… wtf anet?)

Do you play with goggles on or something?

You’re thinking of that big wind-up narrow cone just like the Crusher does. No I’m talking about the Abom’s auto-attack and how it scales up with more than 10 people nearby. It’s a 3/4 second attack that does atleast 20k against targets with 2000 toughness

No, if you’re talking about any Abomination that is in Arah/Orr then you need to go and have a close look at what those Abominations actually do. If you’re talking about some odd non-risen Abomination, then ok. I think I do enough Arah to know what an Abomination is.

For an Abomination to not have a telegraph you have to be an amazing enough player to run around as a ranger/necro and let it stack to 25 stacks of frenzy.

The wide-eyeness of the OP when considering the fact that some people would like to run groups as optimized as possible no matter what the content is hilarious to me.

The more hilarious, or perhaps troubling, thing is that…most pug dungeeoneers continue to endorse the “play-any-way-you-want!” mentality simply because of the manifesto ANet had to release. “No more trinities! You will LOVE this!,” how hammered it was into people’s heads, and the players’ outright refusal to accept coordination or tactics as “optimal,” often twisting words to in fact consider it “elitist”. And why not? ANet said every build is viable, so, “If I want to run a healing power necro with level 45 blues, I should be able to, right?”

The real elitism is in the smugness of continuing to drink muddy water saying it was how the Devs of Earth intended, calling the guy with a filtration system an elitist just because he doesn’t like getting sick.

Honestly, that mention of fearing as a control tactic (which is, in fact, completely contradictory to actual control) blew me away. But I can’t say I blame anyone but those who tried to reinvent the wheel when GW1 was cult-like in it’s popularity and originality.

Broadicea.8294:

The wide-eyeness of the OP when considering the fact that some people would like to run groups as optimized as possible no matter what the content is hilarious to me.

Why? I think it’s a shame that people do not want to team up with rangers or lesser armored classes for something as insignificant as Fractals level 20. More people should play together, instead of focusing so much on the fastest way to burn through Fractals as possible.

As was mentioned before, its not even really about those classes. It is the problem of the individuals who are drawn to those classes, often playing them lazily under the guise of “I’m a ranged character so I must range” while having viable, and indeed, more rewarding contributions for those that can adapt and learn to melee. They just don’t seem to want to learn, and so, people will exercise their right to “play however you want,” by NOT playing with those people, much to the dismay and foot-stompingof those who become excluded (which is ironic because they’re really only excluding themselves from groups which they doublespeak to say they never wanted to be a part of anyways).

Young Somalia.1706:

As was mentioned before, its not even really about those classes. It is the problem of the individuals who are drawn to those classes, often playing them lazily under the guise of “I’m a ranged character so I must range” while having viable, and indeed, more rewarding contributions for those that can adapt and learn to melee. They just don’t seem to want to learn, and so, people will exercise their right to “play however you want,” by NOT playing with those people, much to the dismay and foot-stompingof those who become excluded (which is ironic because they’re really only excluding themselves from groups which they doublespeak to say they never wanted to be a part of anyways).

You’re talking about excluding at least 4 of the 8 professions in the entire game. How is this their fault? And using ranged attacks is lazy by default?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

You’re talking about excluding at least 4 of the 8 professions in the entire game. How is this their fault? And using ranged attacks is lazy by default?

Read both his posts again. I think your missing the point.

spoj.9672:

Read both his posts again. I think your missing the point.

No I get what he is saying. But he’s judging people before he’s seen them actually play. And I think that’s a bad line of thinking. I’ve had my number of bad rangers in groups, even for lower Fractals like level 10. But this doesn’t mean I assume that all rangers should there for be avoided.

When I gather a team for Fractals between level 10 and 20, it boggles my mind that someone would instantly want to leave upon seeing a ranger in the party. What kind of group mentality is that? Is the ranger going to prevent you from completing the Fractal? Is the ranger by default going to be an obstruction, or not be contributing? And should we criticize players the moment they don’t play their class the way we want them to play it?

I welcome all classes, and I let players play their class the way they want to play it, with their build of choice. And then we work together. It’s only Fractals level 20 for crying out loud. It’s not like we’re trying to do Domain of Anguish, or some UW speedrun. I discuss strategies with the team if needed, but let everyone play the way they want to play. I may ask some players if they can bring a particular skill, like deflection for example, but that’s it. If some players struggle along the way, so be it, I’ll help them up. Why should it matter?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Why? Isn’t it the perfect weapon to quickly apply lots of conditions and tag lots of enemies?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

perfect weapon to quickly apply lots of conditions and tag lots of enemies

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

tag lots of enemies

I’m sure that isn’t what you mean but saying immediately make people feel you are leeching. You just opened a truckload of wurm cans.

And it is funny people start talking about the “use” of fear…

How many times have you seen a bunch of mobs coming to a nice LOS spot and gets feared all over the place?
How many times have you seen mobs get fear through a wall of reflection so people have to go the other side to kill it under the fire of ranged attacks?
How many times have you seen lava elementals get feared out of shield of avengers?

For me, too many times already.

Wukunlin.8461:

And it is funny people start talking about the “use” of fear…

How many times have you seen a bunch of mobs coming to a nice LOS spot and gets feared all over the place?
How many times have you seen mobs get fear through a wall of reflection so people have to go the other side to kill it under the fire of ranged attacks?
How many times have you seen lava elementals get feared out of shield of avengers?

For me, too many times already.

A necro feared alpha before we could push him into the boxes the other day. Alpha middle of the room with 5 stacks of defiant and all of us getting dragon tooths spawn on us, i dont dodge because i decided to rage at him in chat lol. I lost my kitten after that incident as the run had been going pretty shocking thanks to that necro already.

Wukunlin.8461:

And it is funny people start talking about the “use” of fear…

How many times have you seen a bunch of mobs coming to a nice LOS spot and gets feared all over the place?
How many times have you seen mobs get fear through a wall of reflection so people have to go the other side to kill it under the fire of ranged attacks?
How many times have you seen lava elementals get feared out of shield of avengers?

For me, too many times already.

THIS. You just read my mind.

As a fellow guardian I’ve had to deal with this situation so many times that I’ve lost the count.
Not that I consider myself to be a great player, I’ve only reached lvl 22 in fractals, but at least I always try to group up mobs using GS 5 while casting wall of reflection. I also like to lure them into a corner or behind some cover so they get nicely packed and ready to be destroyed by AoE damage.
However, sometimes, the most FRUSTRATING thing ever happens. A necro in you party fears all the mobs, or an engie, ranger, mesmer, hammer guardian, etc use their knockback skills screwing all your hard work.
To make matters worse, when you ask them why they did it they tell you that there were too many mobs and they needed to be spread to avoid a party wipe. So not only they don’t realize their mistake but they think that they saved the day.

To the OP. You might be right to some extent. It’s true that there are some elitists whose skills can’t back their words, however, many players are not like that, and if they show that attitude it’s because they’ve found themselves in the same or similar situations as the one described above and they know how frustrating it is to deal with them. Remember that you are not playing alone and while you are entitled to play as you want, you should also think before smashing your buttons just to show some respect for your teammates and not make them waste their time. We play to have fun, however when everybody wipes because someone can’t play properly, things aren’t funny anymore.

Btw, no offense but no one is going to take you seriously if you use “fear” and you haven’t roled a guardian/warrior before because it shows a huge lack of experience.

Just my two cents.

What is wrong with you people. I’ve done a level 48 with these classes in a party: Thief(me), ele, ranger, warrior, necro. That’s right. No Guardians and no mesmers. And you know, that run went flawlessly. Anyone who says that you need a guardian for lvl 48 is probably just using them to make up for their own lack of skill.

Yes you can do every fractal without a guardian. There is this wonderful button called “dodge”. Once you get good with using this “dodge” button, you’ll no longer have any need for guardians.

Oh definitely, a fractal party can be effective without any heavy classes. The problem is for various reasons certain classes tend to be played by people that likes doing stuff making the run more painful

Malafide, I’m a sworn supporter of the OP as long as it relates only to how people perceive some professions aside from the build and gameplay one of such individuals may present.

This WoW-like perception of professions and their roles in GW2 always makes me laugh in a hilarious way for 5 minutes. Then I turn into offense and forcefully make those guys change their attitude or kick them from my party.

Especially since an average scholar or adventurer is better than an average soldier, given the fact they aren’t so in-your-face-I-can-take-a-hit-and-/care-becuuuz-im-a-kitten-warrior and they usually had to learn much more to be as optimal and effective as a warrior or guardian which have rather simplistic mechanics (not bashing anyone, just describing the average). I delight in making those bad players accept how wrong their are and then kicking them out of the dungeon to the filth if they don’t comply.

ALSO
The part ‘That doesn’t matter, what matters is that we all support Evon’…
is genius! Ohh it made my morning, I <3 you.

looking at AP to determine a player fotm skill is the most wrong idea one can have.

I played for many months 2-4 fotm per day, i played almost only fotm..

That was the time all my friend get ahead of me in AP because fotm gives almost no AP.

A player instead playing for AP, may have played only open PvE and have lot more than you :/

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

You’re talking about excluding at least 4 of the 8 professions in the entire game. How is this their fault? And using ranged attacks is lazy by default?

sigh

There are a few things I notice from the way you’re talking about this, but I’m going to try and get to the heart of the problem here.

First off, as others have said, using Fear to spread out enemies is just about the worst thing you can do when trying to handle groups of mobs. Mesmers are valuable not because of their (miserable) DPS, but because of their ability to pull mobs together with Focus 4. Similarly, Guardian GS 5, while somewhat unreliable at times, is still very helpful in grouping mobs together. In the Tier 2 side of things, I’ve even seen Eles try to use Conjure Earth Shield 4 or Rangers use Offhand Axe 4 to group mobs together (both suck, but they’re trying :P ). The truth is, part of the reason many people dread grouping with Necros in particular is for this exact reason – they will try and Fear mobs away when there are “too many” of them in one place. Not only is this counterproductive, but it also demonstrates a fundamental lack of knowledge about the best way to deal with such groups of mobs – ball them together in a corner and AoE them down. Don’t spread them out!

Anyway, I notice you’re using a lot of sort of moral arguments to try and talk about game balance. “How is this their fault? And using ranged attacks is lazy by default?” I don’t think you understand what it is serious gamers are trying to achieve. No, I do not think, as a moral issue, that it is fair or just that ranged DPS is not properly rewarded in GW2 PvE like it is in other games, but that says nothing about whether it is in objectively useful thing to do. The fact of the matter is that the game developers balanced classes in such a way that Ranged DPS is inferior to Melee DPS in terms of sheer numerical output. These players may want to play Ranged DPS (I like to play Ranged DPS in games, for sure), but the fact is that, like it or not, the developers have sought to severely limit Ranged Damage output in PvE, probably to keep the numbers the same for PvP, where Ranged DPS is still too strong.

The fact is, no, this game is not balanced. As is typical with complex games, it is highly imbalanced. The game is rife with bad specs and bad choices that are not viable in any of the three formats (PvE, WvW, PvP), and compounding on this problem, what is viable in one format may not be very useful in another. And yes, the thing is, the “good” PvE specs for classes like Necromancer, Ranger, and Elementalist often involve them doing things that the players who made these classes didn’t envision (playing pure Melee Dagger for Necro, playing Sword or Greatsword on Ranger, playing a narrow Lightning Hammer spec on Elementalist). And yes, this sucks, I’ll admit. But the fact is, especially in Fractals where things get progressively harder and more ridiculous, having good builds becomes more and more essential. This isn’t a question of what’s moral or fair, it’s a matter of what actually works, after the community has worked so hard to figure out what does and doesn’t work. And the thing is, people who play Warriors and Guardians more often play their class’ optimal specs because those specs are in line with what those classes are normally envisioned to do (full glassy Warrior, DPS-support Guardian).

Given that, I will say that I actually agree with the very original premise of this thread, which is that it’s stupid people are discriminating against people based on class, and only based on class. I have seen a huge amount of really really bad Warriors and Guardians. In fact I’ve seen so many Warriors and Guardians in PTV gear using Shout Heals or Knights gear doing no damage and ranging things that should be meleed that I am no longer awed or partial to people who bring Warriors or Guardians. Basically, I’ve seen so many bad players that I’m totally jaded to class by now. If the first thing I see from a Ranger is a Warhorn and Sword or a Greatsword, or I see a Necro fighting it up with me in Melee with a Dagger, then I am always quite pleased and that run almost always ends up better because they’re doing their part.

Basically, there’s huge imbalances, it sucks, but every class can still succeed if you’re willing to put the effort in and to follow the proper meta strategies for success. What is not helpful is sticking to your own special little way of playing without giving a good reason, other than because you want to be special and play your way. That might work in open world, but in dungeons, you’re now using up other people’s time, not just your own, so you should be mindful of that whenever you play in instanced content with others, and try to play your very best.

I gave up on this thread when he called people who don’t share the same opinion as him ‘close minded’.. Well I laughed for a bit then I stopped reading because I knew eventually my laughter would die and I would feel dead inside.