Guild Wars 2

Again, nothing that hasn’t been discussed before. The problem with boss tells isn’t just about you personally being able to see them. Because with enough repetition you can memorize any of the bad boss tells. The problem is that countless other games have bosses with much better tells, that would even be visible in the cluster of effects that is GW2. Boss attacks, especially those that are one-hit kills, should have clear audio cues, and clear visuals, that make it clear to the player that one move is more deadly than others.

To give you an example: Kholer has a tell for his harpoon attack, and many of you would argue that he is very clear. And he’s not. Not by comparison to better designed bosses in other games. Objectively, Kholer only raises his arm before attacking. This is the type of tell that is only visible if you’re standing relatively close to him, but it is a ranged attack. It can be hard to see if a lot of fire is being spammed by your party.

But another issue with it, is that there’s no clear sound before he does the attack, and it doesn’t look all that different from other attacks he does. Players need to know that something deadly is coming, and not through trial and error. Trial and error is bad.

Kholer could easily be improved upon, if he yelled out his attack, and lightning flashed above his head before doing the move. Mind you, this is just an example. I’m not saying this is how he should be changed. But other games do this much better. I’ve given Castlevania as an example before. You can see those boss moves coming from miles away, and that is how it should be. We are talking an instant kill move here after all. And Castlevania’s bosses do not have insta-kills. So is there any reason to defend the fact that bosses in GW2 have worse boss tells than Castlevania or God of War, when the attacks instantly kill you, and suffer from way less visibility due to the multiplayer aspect?

So yeah, kudos if you could spot Lupi’s grub summon move on your first time fighting him. But I bet that’s not what actually happened. I bet like all of us, you learned it through youtube videos or trial and error. That is not how I would have designed his boss tells. There’s a lot of room for improvement.

How about a giant kittening neon sign that says PRESS DODGE NOW

Particle effects are being improved next week. So tells being covered by effects hopefully wont be an issue anymore.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Again, nothing that hasn’t been discussed before. The problem with boss tells isn’t just about you personally being able to see them. Because with enough repetition you can memorize any of the bad boss tells. The problem is that countless other games have bosses with much better tells, that would even be visible in the cluster of effects that is GW2. Boss attacks, especially those that are one-hit kills, should have clear audio cues, and clear visuals, that make it clear to the player that one move is more deadly than others.

To give you an example: Kholer has a tell for his harpoon attack, and many of you would argue that he is very clear. And he’s not. Not by comparison to better designed bosses in other games. Objectively, Kholer only raises his arm before attacking. This is the type of tell that is only visible if you’re standing relatively close to him, but it is a ranged attack. It can be hard to see if a lot of fire is being spammed by your party.

But another issue with it, is that there’s no clear sound before he does the attack, and it doesn’t look all that different from other attacks he does. Players need to know that something deadly is coming, and not through trial and error. Trial and error is bad.

Kholer could easily be improved upon, if he yelled out his attack, and lightning flashed above his head before doing the move. Mind you, this is just an example. I’m not saying this is how he should be changed. But other games do this much better. I’ve given Castlevania as an example before. You can see those boss moves coming from miles away, and that is how it should be. We are talking an instant kill move here after all. And Castlevania’s bosses do not have insta-kills. So is there any reason to defend the fact that bosses in GW2 have worse boss tells than Castlevania or God of War, when the attacks instantly kill you, and suffer from way less visibility due to the multiplayer aspect?

So yeah, kudos if you could spot Lupi’s grub summon move on your first time fighting him. But I bet that’s not what actually happened. I bet like all of us, you learned it through youtube videos or trial and error. That is not how I would have designed his boss tells. There’s a lot of room for improvement.

This is a problem with the player, not the game.

Broadicea.8294:

How about a giant kittening neon sign that says PRESS DODGE NOW

And a GIANT HAMMER appeared in the middle of the screen hitting a player in the face if he still failed to dodge w/ a huge message “NEW FACE PALM”.

Everyone has to experience the boss battles the same way. IF you haven’t learned by now how to avoid attacks your best to group up with players who don’t mind picking you up all the time. This is clearly L2P. From the long posts provided the OP has an understanding of the boss battles but I don’t agree anet should make changes to the way bosses telegraph attacks. MHO, bosses should have totally random attacks that are not telegraphed or next to impossible to see coming. That would make boss fights much more difficult and we wouldn’t see anyone posting solo vids of how cool they are dishing and dodging. The fights would totally weigh heavily on how well a group of players play together.

zerotwo.4731:

bosses should have totally random attacks that are not telegraphed or next to impossible to see coming. That would make boss fights much more difficult and we wouldn’t see anyone posting solo vids of how cool they are dishing and dodging. The fights would totally weigh heavily on how well a group of players play together.

That’s artificial difficulty. You can make any boss fight hard, by making the attacks random, unpredictable, hard to read, and instant-kill. But that doesn’t make it a good boss battle. That doesn’t even make it challenging. It makes it trial and error, and that is bad design.

For the record, I have no difficulty dodging that summon-grub move that Lupi does, but that’s because I know what it looks like, and know from watching videos what it does. That is still no excuse, it’s bad design. You could make that move obvious as hell, and it would still be the same fight. The only difference would be that it no longer requires trial and error. You would be able to recognize the move as dangerous on your first try.

Boss fights should be challenging because they require good timing, coordination, team work and strategy. Not because they require fore-knowledge of what the dangerous attacks look like. A good boss fight is crystal clear on the very first attempt, and should only be hard due to your own lack of skill. Not due to bad communication.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

zerotwo.4731:

bosses should have totally random attacks that are not telegraphed or next to impossible to see coming. That would make boss fights much more difficult and we wouldn’t see anyone posting solo vids of how cool they are dishing and dodging. The fights would totally weigh heavily on how well a group of players play together.

That’s artificial difficulty. You can make any boss fight hard, by making the attacks random, unpredictable, hard to read, and instant-kill. But that doesn’t make it a good boss battle. That doesn’t even make it challenging. It makes it trial and error, and that is bad design.

For the record, I have no difficulty dodging that summon-grub move that Lupi does, but that’s because I know what it looks like, and know from watching videos what it does. That is still no excuse, it’s bad design. You could make that move obvious as hell, and it would still be the same fight. The only difference would be that it no longer requires trial and error. You would be able to recognize the move as dangerous on your first try.

Boss fights should be challenging because they require good timing, coordination and strategy. Not because they require fore-knowledge of what the dangerous attacks look like. A good boss fight is crystal clear on the very first attempt, and should only be deadly due to your own lack of skill.

A boss fight like that should involve loads of trial and error. If not, there is no learning and there is no challenge. If people want hand-holding and don’t want to improve as players, they can fight Champions in Queensdale. It’s not an issue of bad design, it’s an issue of bad players not wanting to get better.

TheMaskedParadigm.3629:

A boss fight like that should involve loads of trial and error. If not, there is no learning and there is no challenge. If people want hand-holding and don’t want to improve as players, they can fight Champions in Queensdale. It’s not an issue of bad design, it’s an issue of bad players not wanting to get better.

That is where you are wrong. Trial and error isn’t learning. Trial and error game play is memorizing.

To learn an encounter, it has to first be more complicated than simply tank and spank. It should require a strategy. You can memorize anything, and it would still not make you a better player. A good boss fight forces players to adapt/change their normal fighting strategy. It forces them to understand the mechanics involved. A good, but simple, example of that is Simin. You have to lure the wisps, and then hit her as hard as you can. The wisp-aspect is an added mechanic that you can figure out, and they coordinate.

Or take the two bosses in Molten Facility. Though by no means a required strategy, many players formed the strategy to switch targets whenever one of the two became enraged. The telegraphing of all the moves is crystal clear, but you still need to use your dodge well, manage aggro, and coordinate this strategy with your team. It did not come down to trial and error. You just had to be good at it. No trial and error required. Plus the dungeon even explained all the boss mechanics during the dungeon itself (such as the shock waves you can jump over). That is good design.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

TheMaskedParadigm.3629:

A boss fight like that should involve loads of trial and error. If not, there is no learning and there is no challenge. If people want hand-holding and don’t want to improve as players, they can fight Champions in Queensdale. It’s not an issue of bad design, it’s an issue of bad players not wanting to get better.

That is where you are wrong. Trial and error isn’t learning. Trial and error game play is memorizing.

To learn an encounter, it has to first be more complicated than simply tank and spank. It should require a strategy. You can memorize anything, and it would still not make you a better player. A good boss fight forces players to adapt/change their normal fighting strategy. It forces them to understand the mechanics involved. A good, but simple, example of that is Simin. You have to lure the wisps, and then hit her as hard as you can. The wisp-aspect is an added mechanic that you can figure out, and they coordinate.

Or take the two bosses in Molten Facility. Though by no means a required strategy, many players formed the strategy to switch targets whenever one of the two became enraged. The telegraphing of all the moves is crystal clear, but you still need to use your dodge well, manage aggro, and coordinate this strategy with your team. It did not come down to trial and error. You just had to be good at it. No trial and error required. Plus the dungeon even explained all the boss mechanics during the dungeon itself (such as the shock waves you can jump over). That is good design.

Wisps!? Do you mean Sparks? Do you think that Simin doesn’t involve trial and error to learn? Trial and error, experimentation, dying over and over trying to figure out what’s happening… Those are all wonderful forms of learning that will actually make you improve. Molten Facility was a huge hand-holding festival designed to baby bad players and people that complain about skipping mobs. The bosses in Molten Facility required you to stand still underneath them and attack them free from AoE. How is that a good design? It’s not. It’s catering to people that don’t want to improve and would rather have something easy to do, as is most of the Living Story experience. I don’t suppose you though Canach’s Lair was well-designed, too?

TheMaskedParadigm.3629:

Wisps!? Do you mean Sparks? Do you think that Simin doesn’t involve trial and error to learn?

I’m not saying that. I’m saying A mechanic, is a better way to add difficulty to a boss encounter, than hard-to-read moves, and trial and error game play.

TheMaskedParadigm.3629:

Trial and error, experimentation, dying over and over trying to figure out what’s happening… Those are all wonderful forms of learning that will actually make you improve.

But they aren’t fair game play mechanics, if the player has no way of anticipating his/her deaths. This is what Demons Souls for example did different. Yes it was hard, but you always had nothing but yourself to blame if you died. Everything was always properly communicated to the player. You just had to practice. Not trial and error. The moves were all as obvious as could be. But the encounters themselves were hard. For example, the boss Maneater split up in two versions at a certain amount of health, which meant you had to deal with two bosses now. That is not trial and error, players can adapt to that. Plus, players could also cut off his tail, to reduce his attacks. Again, that is an extra layer of strategy.

TheMaskedParadigm.3629:

Molten Facility was a huge hand-holding festival designed to baby bad players and people that complain about skipping mobs.

You can’t criticize the design of Molten Facility just based on the difficulty it was aimed for. It was a much better designed dungeon, because most of the issues with GW2’s dungeons were addressed. You could easily make a dungeon with the same design philosophy, but with a higher degree of difficulty. The skipping of mobs for example, is a problem in all dungeons. It’s a design flaw. So is the lack of teaching players new mechanics. They eliminated a lot of that trial and error in MF, and it was a better dungeon because of it. It was also a lot more fun.

TheMaskedParadigm.3629:

The bosses in Molten Facility required you to stand still underneath them and attack them free from AoE. How is that a good design? It’s not.

Merely a design oversight. I don’t judge the whole dungeon based on the fact that players found a way to abuse the mechanics. The dungeon is perfectly doable without cheesing your way past the bosses in that manner.

Take the final boss at the Cliffside Fractal for example. It has solid mechanics. But players found a way to keep the boss stunned and rooted in place. That doesn’t mean it is a badly designed boss. It’s pretty solid actually. Players just found a way to abuse it, but it is by no means an intended strategy, nor a requirement.

TheMaskedParadigm.3629:

It’s catering to people that don’t want to improve and would rather have something easy to do, as is most of the Living Story experience. I don’t suppose you though Canach’s Lair was well-designed, too?

Canach Lair was terrible. But Molten Facility simply had a lower difficulty, and higher design standards. If they increased the difficulty, I think a lot of hardcore players would love it. There’s nothing wrong with making a temporary dungeon more accessible for less experienced players.

We’re not discussing overall dungeon difficulty here. We are discussing the actual boss mechanics. Make the mechanics tricky enough, and you have your layer of difficulty. You don’t need trial and error to do it. Just design solid mechanics.

And for the record, I have worked on boss designs myself. I have worked on bosses that had really obvious moves, and mechanics, and were still difficult due to the speed and the damage of the boss. I have never felt the need to implement trial and error mechanics into such fights to make them difficult.

Stop crying that you can’t kill every boss in a single try. It’s ok to make players wipe until they learn.

Broadicea.8294:

Stop crying that you can’t kill every boss in a single try. It’s ok to make players wipe until they learn.

And that is why you are not a game designer.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Broadicea.8294:

Stop crying that you can’t kill every boss in a single try. It’s ok to make players wipe until they learn.

And that is why you are not a game designer.

I think I found the game that you worked on, it had some p. sweet boss encounters

It never gets old having some PuG idiot come in and start bossing people around because he’s deemed himself the only one to have gone over fractal 48.

Broadicea.8294:

Stop crying that you can’t kill every boss in a single try. It’s ok to make players wipe until they learn.

Not enough in this game. I don’t know of a single boss that took more than a couple of hours to down. Bosses in other games take a week or more to do so.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

But they aren’t fair game play mechanics, if the player has no way of anticipating his/her deaths. This is what Demons Souls for example did different. Yes it was hard, but you always had nothing but yourself to blame if you died. Everything was always properly communicated to the player. You just had to practice. Not trial and error.

Demon’s Souls and Dark Souls are the epitome of trial and error. “Let’s walk down this dark hallway….shoot! died to boulder”. “Now lets go again…dodged boulder…got to end of hallway…encountered three dogs…dogs jumped on me and I died…time to go again”. And repeat.

The tells may be slightly more subtle in some enemies and bosses in GW2, but as with Demon’s/Dark Souls, you just have to go through trial and error to learn them. And once you learn them, the game, or in GW2’s case dungeon paths, and their respective bosses, become easier. PS – Demon’s/Dark Souls are two amazingly fun games, I recommend to all!

Bumbler.7581:

Demon’s Souls and Dark Souls are the epitome of trial and error. “Let’s walk down this dark hallway….shoot! died to boulder”. “Now lets go again…dodged boulder…got to end of hallway…encountered three dogs…dogs jumped on me and I died…time to go again”. And repeat.

Yeah, this is a common misunderstanding of the rules of both games. You see this all over game magazines, from people who do not understand the game, and did not wish to improve their play style.

The boulder, can be seen. You can clearly see it and expect it. The dogs can be heard from several halls away. The dragons, can be expected due to the massive scorch marks and piles of burned bodies on bridges. If any of those encounters are a surprise to you, then that is not trial and error, but poor judgement on the part of the player. It doesn’t take long in Demons Souls to learn that you should always have your shield up (especially when entering a dark room with limited movement space), and never take an easy road for granted. And the game suddenly becomes a lot easier once you step up your game.

Bumbler.7581:

The tells may be slightly more subtle in some enemies and bosses in GW2, but as with Demon’s/Dark Souls, you just have to go through trial and error to learn them. And once you learn them, the game, or in GW2’s case dungeon paths, and their respective bosses, become easier. PS – Demon’s/Dark Souls are two amazingly fun games, I recommend to all!

I recommend them as well, but the bosses in Demons Souls / Dark Souls are not trial and error. They all obey the same rules as everything else in the game, and have well telegraphed attacks. You can learn to beat them while fighting them.

For example, none of the bosses have attacks that hit you out of nowhere (Kudu in SE). You can always see that a boss in Demons Souls is about to do something dangerous. And if a boss hits you with a deadly projectile, it will look different from normal projectiles. In Demons Souls bosses will also never pelt you with insta-kill attacks more often than you can defend against them. Kudu on the other hand, does shoot you several times with an insta-kill attack. More than you can dodge. That is bad design. A boss needs to be balanced around the defensive options of the player. There should not be room for a boss to suddenly focus on one player only, and then pelt him with hard-to-read insta-kill attacks till he’s dead.

A player should never be left to wonder why he’s suddenly on the floor. The attacks should make sense. It should look visibly more dangerous than other attacks, and you should be able to see it coming. There is no excuse for making insta-kills hard to see.

This is also a problem with Sure-shot Samus. Again, an insta-kill that looks identical to other rifle attacks. You encounter countless enemies with rifles in the game, and the attacks look pretty much identical. If Sure-Shot’s bullets are for what ever reason more deadly than other bullets, then the attack should look vastly different. It’s all a matter of communication.

And this is something they got right with the Jade Maw. They place a red skull marker above your head, and it fires a clear beam at you. There is no mystery why you got downed. That is good design.

I still feel bosses lack unpredictability. Granted you want to learn the fights to make them easier but I feel the bosses should also learn. For instance, a team stacks for DPS and that could trigger a boss attack to separate the players. If the devs could have programmed responses to the methods we use it would always be a challenge and players wouldn’t post a vid since it could be different the next time they fight that boss. Perhaps it’s not possible but we can dream.

I can’t reply anymore for fear of breaking my desk with my head. Guild Wars 2 has no problem with boss tells, people have problems seeing them because they want to tank, don’t care about looking for them, want to range and are never in melee to learn them, or any number of other reasons. The tells could instantly become 1000% more obvious to people if Anet took ranged weapons out of the game.

Malafide, the boss tells in the game are blatantly obvious. Even the Dwayna temple event with all the particle effects is easy to detect since the statue opens up with an AOE blind and then uses its projectile attack which downs like 20 people each time because they don’t dodge.

Like Brazil says, it’s a case of actually learning them rather than sitting back wanting to just afk the entire fight.

They just need to tone down the effects like guardian burning and it would be perfectly fine.

There is always……………
Resident evil style!

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Broadicea.8294:

Stop crying that you can’t kill every boss in a single try. It’s ok to make players wipe until they learn.

And that is why you are not a game designer.

you have no idea what you’re talking about.

colesy.8490:

Malafide, the boss tells in the game are blatantly obvious. Even the Dwayna temple event with all the particle effects is easy to detect since the statue opens up with an AOE blind and then uses its projectile attack which downs like 20 people each time because they don’t dodge.

You can memorize anything, but compared to other games, the way the moves are telegraphed is just very poor. Most of the boss battles turn into a game of Where is Waldo. See the picture below.

A boss firing a tiny projectile, or lifting its arm a bit, is NOT a good boss tell. A good boss tell means the boss makes sounds that indicate he’s about to do the attack. Molten Facility did this, Mai Trin did it as well. In fact, boss fights in every game do this. You can go back to games as far back at the 90’s, and you’ll find games with better boss tells. You are giving GW2 praise where it is not deserved. Demand better quality.

FOR EXAMPLE:

Soul Edge for the PS1 and also the arcades, ended with a boss with the same name as the game. It had a devastating charge attack (2:15), an edge attack (the most powerful attack in the game, which it fakes at 2:12) and a leap attack. Both could easily be blocked or dodged, if you knew it was coming. Fortunately there also was a very obvious tell for both moves. Lightning bolts, sounds, and the boss standing still to charge up the attack.
Also, the boss adapts its playing style to how good you are. And learns your attacks. Another way Anet could improve their boss fights. You can tell that after the first defeat, Soul Edge is suddenly a lot more aggressive. But you can still see what he’s about to do.

This boss will mix up high and low attacks more, if it notices you attacking normally too often. It will start using grapples more often, if you block too much. It will use more special moves, if it sees you using lots of fancy moves as well. And if you use the same attack a lot, it will start to counter it more effectively. Stay away too much, it starts using more ranged attacks, like the charge attack (2:15). You cannot button mash your way to victory.

You can also take any of the boss fights from Castlevania for the PS2, or the God of War games, or Demons Souls, to see bosses with much better telegraphed attacks. It really isn’t that difficult to do.

And to remove a popular misconception, this does not equal easy-mode. Well telegraphed attacks do not dictate difficulty, they are a requirement for good game play. Difficulty comes from other factors, like for example the above boss adapting its strategy to the player. Just because GW2 has boss tells, doesn’t mean they could not be improved.

pullnointer.1476:

you have no idea what you’re talking about.

Correction, I know exactly what I’m talking about. This is my work.

I’m not sure why you’re using an open world foe as an example of bad tells, when the people in this thread I’m going to assume only really care about dungeon foes. The only tell I kind of struggle with is Lupicus’ kick, and thats probably because my reactions suck. I think this game does a good job of telegraphing when a foe is doing a particular attack which will ruin your day, there are some exceptions but for the most part I think this is just an ‘L2P’ issue.

As for your comments on ‘tells not dictating difficulty’, I’m not sure that I agree. If every bosses attack was super mega mind blowingly slow and obvious, the game would be an even bigger faceroll than some believe it is now. Maybe it doesn’t fit in your definition of ‘difficulty’, but I’d at the least right it down as an ‘artificial’ difficulty increase, at the least.

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

I’m not sure why you’re using an open world foe as an example of bad tells, when the people in this thread I’m going to assume only really care about dungeon foes. The only tell I kind of struggle with is Lupicus’ kick, and thats probably because my reactions suck. I think this game does a good job of telegraphing when a foe is doing a particular attack which will ruin your day, there are some exceptions but for the most part I think this is just an ‘L2P’ issue.

I’m not just talking about open world foes. Lupicus has bad tells as well. That claw he raises into the air, before summoning a grub? That is a bad tell. It looks hardly different from its normal attacks, and unless you know what he’s about to do, nothing clues you in that he’ll summon something on top of you. In fact, it’s not even clear what it is exactly that you are dodging. You just dodge. He could make a sound to announce this attack. There could be an area of effect appearing on the ground underneath you, or lightning bolts as he charges up this attack. But he does none of that. He just raises his hand. Nothing about that spells out summon-grub, and it should.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

I’m not sure why you’re using an open world foe as an example of bad tells, when the people in this thread I’m going to assume only really care about dungeon foes. The only tell I kind of struggle with is Lupicus’ kick, and thats probably because my reactions suck. I think this game does a good job of telegraphing when a foe is doing a particular attack which will ruin your day, there are some exceptions but for the most part I think this is just an ‘L2P’ issue.

I’m not just talking about open world foes. Lupicus has bad tells as well. That claw he raises into the air, before summoning a grub? That is a bad tell. It looks hardly different from its normal attacks, and unless you know what he’s about to do, nothing clues you in that he’ll summon something on top of you. In fact, it’s not even clear what it is exactly that you are dodging. You just dodge. He could make a sound to announce this attack. There could be an area of effect appearing on the ground underneath you, or lightning bolts as he charges up this attack. But he does none of that. He just raises his hand. Nothing about that spells out summon-grub, and it should.

But it screams out ’he’s about to do something!‘, no? I just can’t help but feel you’re making a big deal out of something that isn’t really a big deal. The game tells you that SOMETHING is about to happen, and please don’t tell me that Lupicus raising his hand to spawn a grub is hardly different from anything else. Lupicus literally has 3 animations in that phase. He doesn’t even have an auto attack, and the grub raising animation is a lot different than the other 2.

You played GW1, right? That game had bad tells. You went to cast a spell on the Mesmer Stygian Lord in DoA? LOLJK it just hit you with Cry of frustration which has a 1/4 second cast time and killed you.

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

But it screams out ’he’s about to do something!’, no?

Yes, but what? What is it that you are dodging exactly? Please tell me. You are not dodging a grub, because if you dodge, it doesn’t appear. There’s no projectile, and the boss doesn’t physically touch you. Nothing seems to appear on the ground either. So what is it with that move that we dodge? This is exactly what I mean. It’s bad. Other games would at least have him do something on the ground, that you’re obviously supposed to dodge, like an explosions of sorts. But it looks like he’s swatting a fly. It doesn’t look like a summoning at all. The only reason we can dodge it, is because we’ve memorized to do so. That is not good boss design.

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

You played GW1, right? That game had bad tells. You went to cast a spell on the Mesmer Stygian Lord in DoA? LOLJK it just hit you with Cry of frustration which has a 1/4 second cast time and killed you.

GW1 had visible skill/attack icons to make up for a complete lack of boss tells. But even then, the skill effects them selves were sometimes very bad. Like chaos storm for example, which looked like a tiny sparkle on the ground, while in fact it was a very painful area of effect attack.

If GW2 had attack icons underneath the healthbars of bosses, we would not be having this discussion. But all they have is active effects, boons and conditions.

BTW, cry of frustration was an interrupt. If you get within spell range of a mesmer foe, and it interrupts your spell, it is 100% your own fault. It will hit you instantly, that’s the point.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

But it screams out ’he’s about to do something!’, no?

Yes, but what? What is it that you are dodging exactly? Please tell me. You are not dodging a grub, because if you dodge, it doesn’t appear. There’s no projectile, and the boss doesn’t physically touch you. Nothing seems to appear on the ground either. So what is it with that move that we dodge? This is exactly what I mean. It’s bad. Other games would at least have him do something on the ground, that you’re obviously supposed to dodge, like an explosions of sorts. But it looks like he’s swatting a fly. It doesn’t look like a summoning at all. The only reason we can dodge it, is because we’ve memorized to do so. That is not good boss design.

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

You played GW1, right? That game had bad tells. You went to cast a spell on the Mesmer Stygian Lord in DoA? LOLJK it just hit you with Cry of frustration which has a 1/4 second cast time and killed you.

GW1 had visible skill/attack icons to make up for a complete lack of boss tells. But even then, the skill effects them selves were sometimes very bad. Like chaos storm for example, which looked like a tiny sparkle on the ground, while in fact it was a very painful area of effect attack.

If GW2 had attack icons underneath the healthbars of bosses, we would not be having this discussion. But all they have is active effects, boons and conditions.

You play a Necro, yeah? When you summon a minion, what animation does it do? And just in case you don’t know, have a video of the minion summoning animation:

http://youtu.be/d-rQyjP1x_o

I’m aware of what CoF did. There is simply no counter play to a 1/4 cast spell once you’re in combat with it. You cannot cast spells on something, without it being able to cast spells on you. Applying your logic to Lupicus, Lupicus won’t kick you if you aren’t in melee range of him. Lupicus won’t swipe you if you aren’t in melee range of him. Lupicus won’t bubble you if you aren’t too far away from him. If you get hit with any of those skills, it is 100% your own fault.

oh my god how could you seriously complain about Lupi’s grub spawn being a bad tell

there’s no way someone could be this kittening obtuse by accident

TheMaskedParadigm.3629:

You play a Necro, yeah? When you summon a minion, what animation does it do? And just in case you don’t know, have a video of the minion summoning animation:

http://youtu.be/d-rQyjP1x_o

Yes, but my minions do not appear underneath my enemies, and they do not make me extremely strong after I consume them.

Minion summoning as done by the necromancer, is not an attack that needs to be dodged, or can be dodged.

When an attack demands that you dodge, there has to be something visibly that you are dodging. Surely that makes sense?

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

I’m aware of what CoF did. There is simply no counter play to a 1/4 cast spell once you’re in combat with it. You cannot cast spells on something, without it being able to cast spells on you.

In GW1? Yes you can. There are counters to interrupts. What makes you think that?

Broadicea.8294:

oh my god how could you seriously complain about Lupi’s grub spawn being a bad tell

there’s no way someone could be this kittening obtuse by accident

Well then professor, why don’t you tell us what it is we have to dodge when Lupi summons a grub. Go on.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

TheMaskedParadigm.3629:

You play a Necro, yeah? When you summon a minion, what animation does it do? And just in case you don’t know, have a video of the minion summoning animation:

http://youtu.be/d-rQyjP1x_o

Yes, but my minions do not appear underneath my enemies, and they do not make me extremely strong after I consume them.

Minion summoning as done by the necromancer, is not an attack that needs to be dodged, or can be dodged.

When an attack demands that you dodge, there has to be something visibly that you are dodging. Surely that makes sense?

Broadicea.8294:

oh my god how could you seriously complain about Lupi’s grub spawn being a bad tell

there’s no way someone could be this kittening obtuse by accident

Well then professor, why don’t you tell us what it is we have to dodge when Lupi summons a grub. Go on.

You combine a tell with a mechanic and BOOM! A boss attack! Add in a player with the ability to think logically and BOOM! a well-designed fight! Add in a player…. Nevermind.

Malafide: if you see an animation and have no idea what it does and it kills you, you’ll learn that next time you run, right? What’s wrong with that?

The counter to an interrupt is to cancel your spell. Considering HM PvE bosses had I believe 20 or over in their attribute lines, the reality is that PvE bosses interrupts were pretty much impossible to counter (see: Fast casting). The only counter you had was spell immunity (pre-preemptive), and a punishment hex such as Mistrust, which was also preemptive. It was no thanks to the tell, because they were basically instant casts. PvP is a different story.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Malafide: if you see an animation and have no idea what it does and it kills you, you’ll learn that next time you run, right? What’s wrong with that?

But in the case of Lupi it doesn’t kill you, it isn’t even clear that it is an attack that you are supposed to dodge, since you don’t see him actually hitting you with anything.

And with some of the bosses there hardly is an animation. Or it is simply unclear what killed you to begin with. Kudu is a good example of this. He will instantly down you, and there’s no tell until he’s already killed you.

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

The counter to an interrupt is to cancel your spell. Considering HM PvE bosses had I believe 20 or over in their attribute lines, the reality is that PvE bosses interrupts were pretty much impossible to counter (see: Fast casting). The only counter you had was spell immunity (pre-preemptive), and a punishment hex such as Mistrust, which was also preemptive. It was no thanks to the tell, because they were basically instant casts. PvP is a different story.

Fortunately in GW1 you could always tell which foes were mesmers. So you could take preemptive measures, or fake a spell by immediately cancelling it. Or you could drain your enemies of energy, to make sure they couldn’t cast their spells much at all. Or you could preemptively place a spirit to increase casting times. There were definitely counters to dealing with interrupts.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Malafide: if you see an animation and have no idea what it does and it kills you, you’ll learn that next time you run, right? What’s wrong with that?

But in the case of Lupi it doesn’t kill you, it isn’t even clear that it is an attack that you are supposed to dodge, since you don’t see him actually hitting you with anything.

And with some of the bosses there hardly is an animation. Or it is simply unclear what killed you to begin with. Kudu is a good example of this. He will instantly down you, and there’s no tell until he’s already killed you.

You even Arah bro?

Honestly the tells Lupi gives is like watching a fat man reach for a twinkie ™ You know what the tub of lard is doing before he even goes for the twinkie ™. Guessing the devs could throw in flashing lights or something to give your casual eye the idea of “oh crap, that giant, slow, undead, dog looking thing is about do something!”

~Love
Riddle

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Malafide: if you see an animation and have no idea what it does and it kills you, you’ll learn that next time you run, right? What’s wrong with that?

But in the case of Lupi it doesn’t kill you, it isn’t even clear that it is an attack that you are supposed to dodge, since you don’t see him actually hitting you with anything.

And with some of the bosses there hardly is an animation. Or it is simply unclear what killed you to begin with. Kudu is a good example of this. He will instantly down you, and there’s no tell until he’s already killed you.

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

The counter to an interrupt is to cancel your spell. Considering HM PvE bosses had I believe 20 or over in their attribute lines, the reality is that PvE bosses interrupts were pretty much impossible to counter (see: Fast casting). The only counter you had was spell immunity (pre-preemptive), and a punishment hex such as Mistrust, which was also preemptive. It was no thanks to the tell, because they were basically instant casts. PvP is a different story.

Fortunately in GW1 you could always tell which foes were mesmers. So you could take preemptive measures, or fake a spell by immediately cancelling it. Or you could drain your enemies of energy, to make sure they couldn’t cast their spells much at all. Or you could preemptively place a spirit to increase casting times. There were definitely counters to dealing with interrupts.

No, you could not. Are you talking about PvE, or PvP? I’m talking from a HM PvE standpoint, because it’s relative to GW2 PvE. A preemptive counter is not a very good counter, because it means you lacked the ability to counter AS IT IS HAPPENING. In GW2, you can react to every tell, you don’t have to preemptively counter it. Sometimes I swear you don’t actually play GW2, nor did you play GW1. You could not look at a Stygian Lord in DoA and know what profession it was. You could not look at a Dream Rider in UW and know it was a Mesmer. GW1 was far more punishing, and based on trial and error than GW2 is.

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

No, you could not. Are you talking about PvE, or PvP?

PVE

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

I’m talking from a HM PvE standpoint, because it’s relative to GW2 PvE.

I’ve played a ton of PVE HM.

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

Sometimes I swear you don’t actually play GW2, nor did you play GW1. You could not look at a Stygian Lord in DoA and know what profession it was.

Yes you could. And any of the old GW1 players in my guild would disagree with you. Most bosses were easy to identify as mesmers, or any other class. I think the Stygian Lords may have been the only ones without a purple glow, passive skills, or a name that betrays the class. But send anything in, and you instantly know its a mesmer. The fact that you had to cherry pick this one type of enemy is kind of odd. Look anywhere else in the game, and the classes are clear as day for every enemy.

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

You could not look at a Dream Rider in UW and know it was a Mesmer.

It’s a DREAM-rider. “DREAM”. If that doesn’t clue you in that it is a mesmer, then you should not be in the Underworld. 99% of the enemies in Gw1 betrayed their profession by their name alone. You could also select them, and see what passive skills they were casting, to instantly know their profession.

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

GW1 was far more punishing, and based on trial and error than GW2 is.

Hardly, except for some of the elite areas, those were badly designed overall.

Riddle.5261:

Honestly the tells Lupi gives is like watching a fat man reach for a twinkie ™ You know what the tub of lard is doing before he even goes for the twinkie ™. Guessing the devs could throw in flashing lights or something to give your casual eye the idea of “oh crap, that giant, slow, undead, dog looking thing is about do something!”

I guess then maybe you can answer the question that everyone is avoiding. When you dodge the grub attack that Lupi does, what is it that you dodge?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

No, you could not. Are you talking about PvE, or PvP?

PVE

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

I’m talking from a HM PvE standpoint, because it’s relative to GW2 PvE.

I’ve played a ton of PVE HM.

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

Sometimes I swear you don’t actually play GW2, nor did you play GW1. You could not look at a Stygian Lord in DoA and know what profession it was.

Yes you could. And any of the old GW1 players in my guild would disagree with you.

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

You could not look at a Dream Rider in UW and know it was a Mesmer.

It’s a DREAM-rider. “DREAM”. If that doesn’t clue you in that it is a mesmer, then you should not be in the Underworld.

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

GW1 was far more punishing, and based on trial and error than GW2 is.

Hardly, except for some of the elite areas, those were badly designed overall.

Tell me how you REACTED to an interrupt in HM PvE, and countered it. Not preemptively countered, you reacted to it. I completed HM UW in 17 minutes post-dhuum. DoA in 18 minutes, I think I have a pretty solid understanding of the areas.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/images/thumb/8/85/Stygian_Lord.jpg/150px-Stygian_Lord.jpg

Is this the Mesmer lord, Ele lord, Necro lord, Monk lord, or a Heart tormentor? Or perhaps even a Word of Madness?

Spoiler Alert: They all have the exact same model and in terms of the lords, they all have the same name ‘Stygian Lord’. Again, supporting my claim that you didn’t even play GW1. (the WoM and Heart Tormentor had a different scale, but the same model)

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

Tell me how you REACTED to an interrupt in HM PvE, and countered it. Not preemptively countered, you reacted to it.

If you don’t anticipate what profession an enemy is in GW1 before attacking it, and don’t prepare accordingly, you’re playing the game wrong. Preemptive measures is how you deal with HM PVE interrupts. You anticipate them, and make sure that you are not in casting range of that mesmer when your party attacks it. It was very easy to keep an eye on your HUD in GW1, and stay out of range of interrupts.

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

I completed HM UW in 17 minutes post-dhuum. DoA in 18 minutes, I think I have a pretty solid understanding of the areas.

Ah, you are one of those players. We’re all very impressed.

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

Is this the Mesmer lord, Ele lord, Necro lord, Monk lord, or a Heart tormentor? Or perhaps even a Word of Madness?

It’s not a word of madness, because it literally has the name Stygion Lord, and your quest says “Kill the stygion lords”. If you’ve already fought a necro stygion lord, you should expect the other professions. Seriously, did you really have trouble with these guys? My teams hardly paid attention to their profession, since the tank was taking all the beating any way. We made sure it didn’t focus on any of the spellcasters, and interrupts were thus not an issue. That is how you deal with it.

It surprises me how some players can brag about their speedrun times, yet have such a fundamentally flawed understanding of the game, that they can’t even tell that anything that has “dream” or “illusion” or “lyssa” in it’s name, is a mesmer.

Dragging this puppy back on topic. Bad boss tells.

No wait, that wasn’t even the original topic! Elitist attitudes to specific classes for low level Fractals! Not that different btw from elitist GW1 attitudes.

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

No, you could not. Are you talking about PvE, or PvP?

PVE

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

I’m talking from a HM PvE standpoint, because it’s relative to GW2 PvE.

I’ve played a ton of PVE HM.

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

Sometimes I swear you don’t actually play GW2, nor did you play GW1. You could not look at a Stygian Lord in DoA and know what profession it was.

Yes you could. And any of the old GW1 players in my guild would disagree with you.

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

You could not look at a Dream Rider in UW and know it was a Mesmer.

It’s a DREAM-rider. “DREAM”. If that doesn’t clue you in that it is a mesmer, then you should not be in the Underworld.

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

GW1 was far more punishing, and based on trial and error than GW2 is.

Hardly, except for some of the elite areas, those were badly designed overall.

Tell me how you REACTED to an interrupt in HM PvE, and countered it. Not preemptively countered, you reacted to it. I completed HM UW in 17 minutes post-dhuum. DoA in 18 minutes, I think I have a pretty solid understanding of the areas.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/images/thumb/8/85/Stygian_Lord.jpg/150px-Stygian_Lord.jpg

Is this the Mesmer lord, Ele lord, Necro lord, Monk lord, or a Heart tormentor? Or perhaps even a Word of Madness?

Spoiler Alert: They all have the exact same model and in terms of the lords, they all have the same name ‘Stygian Lord’. Again, supporting my claim that you didn’t even play GW1. (the WoM and Heart Tormentor had a different scale, but the same model)

You need to stop responding, he’s not worth it. He’s just not… The things he says are so kitten awful… They just… I cant even… You wont change his mind ok? You just wont. He’s too deep into it. All there is left to do is /facedesk.

How is that not trial and error? Do you have an extra chromosome or what?

You kill the Necro lord. You have 3 professions left. Do you know what order they’re in? No. If you look at the Lord, do you know what profession it is? No. I’m not saying I had any problem, you implied that. I’m saying that you’re supporting the game that had even worse tells than GW2 does, and bashing on GW2 tells.

In GW2, you do not have to preemptively counter anything. It is literally all reactionary. You see something, you react. In GW1, you didn’t get a chance to react to EVERYTHING because it was simply too fast. Didn’t mean it was difficult, I didn’t even imply it was difficult. I simply stated that interrupts in GW1 had no reactionary counter play, which you seem to think is a big problem with GW2. Reactionary counterplay.

I’m done. I am trolled.

Boss attacks are hard to anticipate, in fact, the first time I saw Lupi raise his hand up in the air I thought he was going to make a toast.

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

I’m done. I am trolled.

We’ve all been there. And it’s not trolling. It is genuine. Some people really are genuine. Sometimes I just sit back and I stare at the ceiling and I wonder how people on these forums are in real life.. Who employs them? How do they function day to day? Do they have a family? What do they do when they are not playing the game or on the forums?

I just go over and over all the little details and possibilities that could make up that person’s life and try to comprehend why they say the things they do.

swiftpaw.6397:

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

I’m done. I am trolled.

We’ve all been there. And it’s not trolling. It is genuine. Some people really are genuine. Sometimes I just sit back and I stare at the ceiling and I wonder how people on these forums are in real life.. Who employs them? How do they function day to day? Do they have a family? What do they do when they are not playing the game or on the forums?

I just go over and over all the little details and possibilities that could make up that person’s life and try to comprehend why they say the things they do.

I was just reading about boss tells in the bible. Turns out, everything Mad Queen has said checks out there.

By the way, the Dream Rider that he was referring to, is this dude:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Banished_Dream_Rider.jpg

He was found on the Chaos Planes, a mesmer-themed area of the Underworld.
Maybe they should have called it a mesmer-rider, just to make it even more obvious, and put up signs that says “Chaos means mesmers, there are mesmers here!”.

Tsk.

Anyway, this really wasn’t about GW1 to begin with. Neither was it about the bosses being too hard, or them not having boss tells. I think they can simply be improved. When a boss is about to do an attack that instantly kills a player, I think the communication should be crystal clear. The effect should match the result. For an instant kill, I would expect at least some sort of devastating explosion. Or a giant mark that appears on the floor, that you must dodge out of, before it collapses.

What they did for the Jade Maw was good, with the red skull icons. I think they should do this for all bosses that have some sort of sniper-attack. It’s only fair. Sure-shot Samus for example. And some more audio-ques would also help with the timing of dodging.

swiftpaw.6397:

We’ve all been there. And it’s not trolling. It is genuine. Some people really are genuine. Sometimes I just sit back and I stare at the ceiling and I wonder how people on these forums are in real life.. Who employs them? How do they function day to day? Do they have a family? What do they do when they are not playing the game or on the forums?

I just go over and over all the little details and possibilities that could make up that person’s life and try to comprehend why they say the things they do.

Or maybe you’re all just so incredibly proud of your own skills, that you’re unable to distance yourself from your awesomeness, and see the flaws in the game for what they are.

When I do the Aetherblade JP for example, I can do that just fine. But that doesn’t mean I can’t see the flaws in the design. It also doesn’t mean that I can’t see why some players are struggling with it.

It takes some effort to distance yourself from your own simplistic view of the game, and put yourself in other people’s shoes. There are plenty of players that struggle with the bosses, and with dungeons, for these reasons. Players get frustrated with dungeon overall, and are generally not having a good time (Anet has even admitted that the dungeons weren’t that good). And it’s not because they are all bad players. The game has flaws.

Why act so high and mighty, when improvements are suggested?

TheMaskedParadigm.3629:

swiftpaw.6397:

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

I’m done. I am trolled.

We’ve all been there. And it’s not trolling. It is genuine. Some people really are genuine. Sometimes I just sit back and I stare at the ceiling and I wonder how people on these forums are in real life.. Who employs them? How do they function day to day? Do they have a family? What do they do when they are not playing the game or on the forums?

I just go over and over all the little details and possibilities that could make up that person’s life and try to comprehend why they say the things they do.

I was just reading about boss tells in the bible. Turns out, everything Mad Queen has said checks out there.

The wind up on Goliath’s attacks were such an obvious tell even a noob like David could one-shot him.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Sure-shot Samus

And that’s GG. You really gave yourself away with that one.

TheMaskedParadigm.3629:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Sure-shot Samus

And that’s GG. You really gave yourself away with that one.

To everyone else, just ignore his remarks.

I really am serious about all of these bosses. Including Samus, who isn’t a very tough boss, but he lacks clear tells.

The Iron Forgeman does have good tells. Unfortunately his mechanics are so simple, that he doesn’t really present any sort of a challenge. But if he hits you with that beam attack, then it really is entirely your own fault.

This shows that Anet does know how to make proper boss tells. But some of the bosses were probably rushed.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

TheMaskedParadigm.3629:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Sure-shot Samus

And that’s GG. You really gave yourself away with that one.

To everyone else, just ignore his remarks.

I really am serious about all of these bosses. Including Samus, who isn’t a very tough boss, but he lacks clear tells.

The Iron Forgeman does have good tells. Unfortunately his mechanics are so simple, that he doesn’t really present any sort of a challenge. But if he hits you with that beam attack, then it really is entirely your own fault.

This shows that Anet does know how to make proper boss tells. But some of the bosses were probably rushed.

No. I think I’ll ignore yours.