Guild Wars 2

Ill admit I have not taken people in to fractals based on level. And I am one to commonly do lower level fractals to help people level up.

The players in my instance were mid level 20 and around 40. In one case the player didn’t even even have access to an elite or all of their utility skills and barely had any points in traits. The other was missing thirty points in traits.

They might have been scaled up, but still would have been a burden on the party. It wasn’t fair to expect the other three people in the group to be ok with carrying them.

We have done it with a few lvl 60s and I can tell you Fractals is a horrible place to level. I think in four runs the 60 dinged once. It’s also a waste of drops. Everything is scaled to your level, so no one will buy any rares you get and they can’t even salvage them for ecto.

Just level up. At least in to the 70s. So you can benefit parties, parties benefit from you, and the rewards are worthwhile.

Dash.7108:

Speaking just for people scaled up to 80- I’ve done about 5 attempts at fractals with a member of the team who is below 80 and 5/5 times the person below 80 has shown that they do not know how to follow orders, lack understanding of the game mechanics, and obviously a lvl 80 will have higher stats and better armor than a person who is lvl 20 scaled up. Is this a case of a few bad low levels ruining it for a whole group of good low level players? Maybe but I think its more that the majority of players below 80 are not very good.

This…. In my entire experience, I get better cooperation from players in explore mode dungeons who aren’t downscaled by much, if any, than players in fractals who are upscaled. I don’t know why that is, but after awhile it starts to get annoying. And this isn’t like “oh he didn’t execute perfectly the first/second/third time”, it’s more often an almost willful ignorance of not looking at the chat and understanding what we’re trying to do.

I’m sure there are sub-lvl-80 players out there that have competence to do a fractal… But I haven’t found many of those players at fractal level 7; I think the progression system of fractals is far to rigid which also makes it hard for sub-80 players to progress.

3) is your fault. If find outrageous that some people get naked to save money lol

But yeah, the design currently can make it hard to find groups.

Chris.7653:

Andovar Edoras.2143:

Now that i think of it, youre All level 80 with endlessly deep pockets, arent ya..(at least the level part).

For once, would be nice to hear opinions from people with lower levels since the higher a person’s level gets, the more selfish and rude they usually get with their ’’greatness’’

Don’t you think YOU are the one being selfish here?

Because people don’t want to play with a level 65 who apparently has a bit of a temper, de-equips his gear mid instance and doesn’t understand the difference between train and utility skill, does not mean they are selfish.

It doesn’t mean they have an attitude problem or think they a great. It just simply means they want to play with who/how they want.

Do you think it is selfish for you to expect them to carry you butt naked through an instance because you don’t have the HP/Traits/Experience they do? Don’t you think it is selfish to blame THEM and making them sound like monsters for not taking you?

Again I am just trying to open your eyes a little…

sigh im tired of this arguing.
I’m not selfish, i didnt ask anyone to carry me, and its not for them to decide to kick me when its the 3rd fractal of the instance already and i decide to unequip, since everyone got killed by some trap things.

→‘’difference between train and utility skill’’ yes, i know the difference between a -train- and an utility skill, oh, but maybe you meant ‘’playing skill’’?..

I was actively doing the dungeon, and wasnt a burden to anyone, supporting them with what a mesmer can unload.

Andovar Edoras.2143:

1) people are ’’lfg’’ for the same level, yet they dont actually ask or invite anyone..

This is common. It happens even in any previous dungeons.
I agree that many people would “lfg” instead of “lf4m”.

The problem is that they don’t want to hold the responsibility as a leader. If any new problems comes out, they don’t want their party-mates to accuse the leader for not telling them any information or walkthrough.

Andovar Edoras.2143:

2) the worst part, people care SO MUCH about your level ‘’are you 80? no? well ok, bye then’’
i mean, you get SCALED up… (the character i wanted to do it with, was 65, and yet people werent ok with me being scaled up 15 levels)…

I heard low level such as Lv17 can still be recruited with the help of their guild. Yes, you get level scale but your equipments are still equivalent to a lv65. It’s not unexpected they want lv80 only. This dungeon is targetted towards level 80 end-game. The website introduction said that. You’re only 15 levels behind. You can reach that within a weekend.

3) So once i got a group, at some point, we seemed to be dying a lot, so i unequipped my clothes, and when i explained that i dont wanna spend that much money on that overpriced repair system, they kicked me from the party and i had to do it all over again..

Doesn’t everyone unequip during those 1hko mini-game traps?
The only 1hko mini-game in fractal I know is the asuran map.

I’ve done it several times (300+ fractal relics) and never see anyone unequipped besides the laser rolling down the stairs map.

PS. Your loots worth more alot more than your repair fees.
2 full rounds = At least 1 gold.

Andovar Edoras.2143:

4) People arent having fun in this game…at all…. just lots of rudeness and caring about getting loot.. I mean…all i want to do is to enjoy playing this game -.-

You found the wrong group. >_<
It’s better that you find an active fractal guild.

Ok now, first of all, i simply wanted to find out about the new dungeon, nothing wrong with that.

2nd, i already got a positive reply as well in my mail, as to how to avoid these problems (it was a very good point-out actually [and seemingly from a person with <80 level])
so i dont need these people here that keep yelling at me, that they want to kick me and im bad etc..

if i could find a way to effectively gain some income, everything would be fine, since im not usually a person who cares so much about money (even irl), but seeing how dying outmatches my incomes, it kinda makes playing….difficult, and not the good ‘difficult’

Income is easy in this game

1) get to level 80, it takes a week, from level 1, your already 65
2) Do dynamic events
3) dungeons give you loot, generally 20silver (usually more than repair costs)
4) get t6 mats, I get all mine by salvaging whites from DE and dungeons
5) salvage rares for ecto, sell exotics for money

Hey, your now making money everyday, even if you die 20x, and just by playing normally

Don’t pug, problem solved.
I personally don’t find it fun going to a dungeon with folk who are so ignorant. Sure there’s a few who make a dungeon run quite fun but they are rare. Better to go with friends or guild mates imo.

Forget about LFG….find a good guild with good people to run with. People who understand that its just a game and could give a fat rats kitten about whether you’re uber geared or not.

So, it takes a while to find that group of people? So what….you’re not paying a sub, right?

I still haven’t seen an answer on this one:

in topics about endgame people tell me this game is not designed to rush to 80.
It seems rushing it is doing it wrong, it seems the leveling maps IS the major endgame.

In topics about WvW or dungeons people always say how fast you can get to 80 so you should stop complaining about being lower level and weaker.

It’s not even a choice, both are apparantly how the game is designed to be enjoyed.
So how can both be true and valid?

It’s like saying: chose between enjoying leveling and enjoying dungeons.
Or between leveling and exploring and doing WvW.

At least in WvW you can join even though you’re a LOT weaker.
In dungeons most groups don’t even let you join… even if you’re doing it ‘right’ by not leveling fast.

I tell you: this game can’t chose what it wants to be, and that’s causing a lot of trouble for the community.

Taking off your gear for anything other than an instant-death trap sequence is certainly worthy of a kick. There is over-the-top elitism, and stuff like this is used to justify it.

Andovar Edoras.2143:

Dungeons already drained all my coins lol, so i simply decided, that in a dungeon, id only wear clothes if it was some stronger boss fight, not to waste repair money by being swarmed and killed by those little mobs.

(and you cant repair while inside the fractal anyway)

I would kick you instantly for this. This one statement invalidates your entire post.

Best just to ignore dungeons completely, i buy 99% of my gear on the TP and just PvE, its so much less frustration and anger too be honest, about 20gold will get a character looking nice and fully geared, probably 10g-13g if you are stingy….

My issue is this casual way to play is coming to an end now Ascended gear will be needed for future content…but when that happens i’ll just up and leave i guess.

Okay sooo…I’m a nice guy. I wouldn’t have kicked you out of the group OP. But that said…I completely understand why they did.

First off…if you are dying so much that you feel the need to run a dungeon ungeared…then that says something about your effectiveness. You are very likely constant dragging your team down when they have to keep reviving you. Sadly enough, sometimes it’s more effective to just leave a player dead instead of constantly bringing them up just so they can die again.

Second, by running the dungeon ungeared, you are basically completely depending on your group members to get you through, and get you an awesome reward in the end. You are, in a sense, a freeloader. This isn’t very fair to your group members, who have to work harder for their reward is it?

Even worse, you are absolving yourself from any risk (repair cost) and making your group memers take ALL the risk. How would you feel if someone did this to you?

Note that there ARE some exceptions to where being ungeared actually makes sense. For example, the dolphin part or the plant part in the water. Gear makes 0 difference there, and you can die extremely frequently…no point in wearing gear there. But for anywhere else…yeah, you better not take off your gear and try to freeload.

I know for a fact that I’m not the only one who runs fractals with a profit.
Just die less.
The only way to actually lose money on repair costs is to die ALOT. And since we have combat res and downed states it is really hard to do. Unless you’re intentionally trying to go down in hard to reach places.
So people who “don’t have money for repairs” are either really greedy and want to get every single bronze scrap they can or they are really bad or just trolling and messing around.
-_-

Ok… currently 12,5 levels to go til level 80…

Gonna leave dungeon for quite a while now, went back to solo adventuring.

Andovar Edoras.2143:

2nd, i already got a positive reply as well in my mail, as to how to avoid these problems (it was a very good point-out actually [and seemingly from a person with <80 level])
so i dont need these people here that keep yelling at me, that they want to kick me and im bad etc..

Don’t worry about people here “yelling” at you. (They aren’t actually “yelling” but taken aback by few of your points.) It’s because everyone experience it before, and want to forward to you that it’s truely a normal occurance. In any games, newbies who’re in a party with experienced players often gets pressured. We’ve been through all that.

Fractal dungeon is better than any dungeons in terms of first-timer peer pressure. It’s due to the level progression. If players are new and need to adapt, they can stick to difficulty lv1 and join other first-timers. They can pick up good knowledge and tips through observing the runs. When I first tried Lv1, we took like 1 hour per map. Now I can easily finish all 3 maps in less than 40-50 minutes. Especially in fractals, knowledge is power.

Just a few thoughts:

Fighting anything while naked makes you a detriment to the group. Even if you’re running a support spec. Where’s your healing power? Where’s your armor? If you’re dying so much that its breaking your bank with armor equipped, then chances are you’re not very good at avoiding or mitigating damage in the first place. The lack of armor rating from… you know…wearing armor amplifies this effect.

See, people complain about repair costs when they die a lot. If your entire group is dying a lot, its possible that the problem is your group. In which case it’s usually a good idea to either stop the run and have a quick strategy session to avoid that, or simply find a new group if your failing party won’t listen to reason.

I’ve run several L1 fractal runs in the past few days as well as some longer runs up to L4. I’ve taken people as low as 50 on the L1 runs and they were usually an asset to the team, and were not getting killed noticeably more often than anyone else. Most of them were much better at rezzing downed players than the 80s.

The fractals aren’t the reason you have a huge repair bill. Its either you, or your group. If everyone else in your group isn’t getting killed over and over, then logical deduction points to only one possible cause for your huge repair bill, and that’s you.

This isn’t a way of just saying “well you suck” as much as it is a reminder that repair bills are directly related to how often you die from monster attacks (environmental deaths do not damage armor) If you’re having trouble breaking even, you should probably examine your build, playstyle, or group to figure out how to die less, as the vast majority of players in all content don’t have much trouble making enough money to cover repairs and still profit.

What you shouldn’t do is make yourself a liability by selfishly leeching off the increased risk your party members are forced to incur when you strip down and fight. You’re not helping your group that way, and you’re sending a message to them that your personal income is more important than the success of the group as a whole.

Zid.4196:

While I personally accept low lvl people in my runs, leveling to 80 in this game is super easy. If you can’t be bothered to do even that, expect really a lot of people to kick you.

I’m not trying to pick on you Zid, I just noticed something here that I felt like pointing out.

You see… you now have an obligation to play this game in a very specific way. If you ever want to enjoy new content, be it this FotM dungeon or the next one, you must “earn” your spot and “work” for your gear. You must level to 80, buy rares, then earn your exotics, and THEN – and only then – will you be considered worthy of the new content.

If you don’t enjoy those things… the grind, or the grind that follows it, or the grind after that one… then you will never be allowed into new content. After all, it really is a requirement now and “if you can’t be bothered to do even that” then you haven’t worked hard enough yet and aren’t allowed to have fun.

Once upon a time there was a team of game designers who figured this out, and even thought about creating a game to eliminate this mentality…

“So if you love MMORPGs, you should check out Guild Wars 2. But if you hate traditional MMORPGs, then you should really check out Guild Wars 2. Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun; and of course, it doesn’t have a monthly fee.”
- Mike O’Brien, President of ArenaNet and Executive Producer of Guild Wars 2

I’m having a hard time taking you seriously, and this is only because I’m not sure if this is your first MMO or you really are looking to portray that outward appearance. If the latter, then you’re failing because you’re coming off like a smug fool. If the former, well, you’re still coming off like a smug superior fool.

You wear gear to bolster your stats, you use Traits to bolster your stats AND to grant special perks, and until you hit Level 80 you don’t have the same level of power to bring to the table as a Level 80. Even without full exotics, just Fine or Masterwork (Blues and greens) you can compete fine at Level 80. At 65 upscaled? You really need to have good skills and know what you’re doing.

Saying “I unequipped my armor so I wouldn’t break it” tells me you do not know what you’re doing. I’m sorry to break it to you but you need to practice a little longer to get the hang of not dying. Sometimes this can be hard (Risen rush, lolololol!) and sometimes it just takes learning WHEN to dodge and why not to rush up to closest range.

I don’t know what class you are, you studiously avoided saying so. If you’re a primarily-ranged class then you should not be in arm’s reach of monsters without a REAL GOOD reason, as all it takes is a momentary “hey, this guy is shooting a bow at me point-blank, Imma smack him” and you can be hurting badly. Especially against the Fractal bosses.

Everyone here is saying they’d kick you. I’d probably keep you but you’d probably put up with me whispering little pieces of advice to you and suggesting things. You’d probably be 5th member of a guild group if I had an open slot, so we’d at least be cool about letting you learn the Fractals with us . . . it’d be our first time for some.

I will, however, restate what I said at the top. Everything you say is tainted with this air of smug superiority . . . that everyone else is wrong about how they conduct their groups and by extension the game is at fault. Adjust your attitude, realize you will always have something to learn about the game and dungeons/Fractals are entirely different animals than the open world. In the open world, people can wander in and save you. In the dungeons? Five people. No more.

Nymia.3256:

You see… you now have an obligation to play this game in a very specific way. If you ever want to enjoy new content, be it this FotM dungeon or the next one, you must “earn” your spot and “work” for your gear.

The only thing you really need to work for is to learn what to do, and you need to earn the respect of at least four poor saps . . . er . . . extra targets . . . er . . . fellow noble adventurers.

I didn’t work for my gear, its either handcrafted or Orr map completion rewards. I’m not even using the flipping Ancient Karka Shell earring, because I have Opal Mithril and Emerald Mithril on and like the combination more. I have an exotic bow, which was in my completion reward for Cursed Shore. I have no other exotic parts but am saving up tier six materials so I can make it through my Leatherworking. Why? Because my drops of exotic armor have been either Light or Heavy and it’s pissed me off enough to say “screw it, I’ll craft it”.

Really, the biggest thing is not having the best gear; that’s an illusion fostered by years on years of mental blocks from other games. It’s important to have gear as close to your level as possible, but bleeding-edge upgrades? No. Handcrafted Masterwork will do just fine for 95% of the content. Dungeons and WvW comprise the other 5%, where you might possibly be outmatched . . . but in WvW this can be handled by not going 1v1. EVER.

(By the way, this is one of the cardinal rules, much like “never dig straight down” in Minecraft. Don’t try for 1v1 fights in WvW. It’s almost guaranteed that one person you saw isn’t alone and their buddies are 30sec behind them. Or ahead of them, able to double back on you.)

Nymia.3256:

Zid.4196:

While I personally accept low lvl people in my runs, leveling to 80 in this game is super easy. If you can’t be bothered to do even that, expect really a lot of people to kick you.

I’m not trying to pick on you Zid, I just noticed something here that I felt like pointing out.

You see… you now have an obligation to play this game in a very specific way. If you ever want to enjoy new content, be it this FotM dungeon or the next one, you must “earn” your spot and “work” for your gear. You must level to 80, buy rares, then earn your exotics, and THEN – and only then – will you be considered worthy of the new content.

If you don’t enjoy those things… the grind, or the grind that follows it, or the grind after that one… then you will never be allowed into new content. After all, it really is a requirement now and “if you can’t be bothered to do even that” then you haven’t worked hard enough yet and aren’t allowed to have fun.

Once upon a time there was a team of game designers who figured this out, and even thought about creating a game to eliminate this mentality…

“So if you love MMORPGs, you should check out Guild Wars 2. But if you hate traditional MMORPGs, then you should really check out Guild Wars 2. Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun; and of course, it doesn’t have a monthly fee.”
- Mike O’Brien, President of ArenaNet and Executive Producer of Guild Wars 2

If they would simply include traits into upscaling to 80, it would solve most issues.

Enter a dungeon, or enter WvW for that matter: your stats AND your traits scale to 80.
And to be honest: the way this game was advertised, it should simply scale the gear too. Just like in spvp.

Simple as that: you now have a fully functional group member (who can even trait for support if his gear is lacking for high dps…)

This game should make up it’s mind if it wants gear and level to matter or not in dungeons and WvW.
It made a clear choice in spvp, but in the ’other ’ form of pvp (WvW) it lingers in between.
Same as in dungeons.

Gear should matter, or it should not matter.
GW2 can’t make up it’s mind it seems.

Tobias: you say gear doesn’t matter except in 5% of the game, being dungeons and WvW…

That’s about most of endgame right there… way beyond ‘5%’ at max level.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Nymia.3256:

You see… you now have an obligation to play this game in a very specific way. If you ever want to enjoy new content, be it this FotM dungeon or the next one, you must “earn” your spot and “work” for your gear.

The only thing you really need to work for is to learn what to do, and you need to earn the respect of at least four poor saps . . . er . . . extra targets . . . er . . . fellow noble adventurers.

I didn’t work for my gear, its either handcrafted or Orr map completion rewards. I’m not even using the flipping Ancient Karka Shell earring, because I have Opal Mithril and Emerald Mithril on and like the combination more. I have an exotic bow, which was in my completion reward for Cursed Shore. I have no other exotic parts but am saving up tier six materials so I can make it through my Leatherworking. Why? Because my drops of exotic armor have been either Light or Heavy and it’s pissed me off enough to say “screw it, I’ll craft it”.

Really, the biggest thing is not having the best gear; that’s an illusion fostered by years on years of mental blocks from other games. It’s important to have gear as close to your level as possible, but bleeding-edge upgrades? No. Handcrafted Masterwork will do just fine for 95% of the content. Dungeons and WvW comprise the other 5%, where you might possibly be outmatched . . . but in WvW this can be handled by not going 1v1. EVER.

(By the way, this is one of the cardinal rules, much like “never dig straight down” in Minecraft. Don’t try for 1v1 fights in WvW. It’s almost guaranteed that one person you saw isn’t alone and their buddies are 30sec behind them. Or ahead of them, able to double back on you.)

Somewhat, but not quite.

Any activity, be it WvW or dungeon crawling, has a limited number of player slots available.
For any group who wants to be competitive in these activities (because for a lot of us fun comes from the competitive aspect), they need to be as efficient as possible.
If I can only bring 5, or 30, or 166 people to a competitive activity… I am going to bring the best people I have.

If I have a choice between two roughly equally skilled players, but one of them has 20% higher stats because of better gear, there is no longer a choice.

Therefore – in any game where the maximum stats provided by passive things, such as gear, continues to increase → players must continue to procure these items in order to remain on a level playing field.

Why are we even debating this? You know who is really good at explaining this stuff? Those guys over at ArenaNet… you know the ones who have written essays and delivered speeches on the subject.

You can get at least 3 exotic items of your choosing for karma in Orr the moment you hit 80.
Really, saying that you don’t want to “grind” (!) for exotics is a weak excuse for being lazy and ill informed.
And difference in stats between exotics and rares is like 5-10%. You can get lvl 80 rares with any stats for some silver on TP.

Thre’s really nothing hard in obtaining gear at level 80. Just read something about the game you’re playing instead of inventing excuses.

The new dungeon was designed to be hard. First time i did it, it was me and another 80, everybody else was upleveled. Last time i ever do FotM dungeon with a non-80. The dungeon may upscale you, but unless you understand the way it uplevels, you kitten everybody. You have to have your level of gear, then it upscales to around what an 80 has. If you have so much as 1 piece that’s lower level than you are, it doesn’t upscale properly. Same as in WvW.

You say everybody is just LFG and not making a group, so wouldn’t it be easier to try to start your group, instead of being exactly like the people you want to complain about? Unequipping your gear…. I’d kick you too. Environmental damage aside, there’s no reason to not have your gear on. If you are having problems with money, you’re doing it wrong. I’m on my third 80, and have had no gold problems on any of them. I also don’t farm.

I constantly blast my cash down to about 0-10c. Within an hour I’m back up to 30s at least. Money is seriously the easiest thing to come by in this game.

Can you afford the money it takes to warp to Queensdale etc? No? Then go to World vs World and exit back to Lion’s Arch for free. Exit north of town into the Gendarran Fields, and kill the wasps/grubs/pirates in the fields directly north of LA. They drop cash, item bags, fangs, venom sacs, weapons, armors, etc. If you don’t know how to sell these mats on the trading post then you don’t know how to play Guild Wars 2.

There is never an excuse to complain about money, especially when full armor repairs (all 7 pieces broken, meaning you’ve died 14+ times) cost less than 50s, and when you can earn 50s within 90 mins of more or less walking around Lion’s Arch.

I understand that 30-50s an hour isn’t “supa leet” like some people want but the fact of the matter is that it’s free transport paired with free money, all for the low low cost of killing mobs in 2-4 hits.

Take an appropriately geared character to WvW and test the damage against a random creature. Create a new character of the same class, go to WvW and attack the same creature. You’ll notice a significant difference.

Also compare your stats as well from each time. When you’re scaled up all that’s it’s doing is creating a kittened lv80. The difference depends on how many levels you are scaled up and how current your gear is.

Nymia.3256:

Any activity, be it WvW or dungeon crawling, has a limited number of player slots available.
For any group who wants to be competitive in these activities (because for a lot of us fun comes from the competitive aspect), they need to be as efficient as possible.
If I can only bring 5, or 30, or 166 people to a competitive activity… I am going to bring the best people I have.

If I have a choice between two roughly equally skilled players, but one of them has 20% higher stats because of better gear, there is no longer a choice.

Therefore – in any game where the maximum stats provided by passive things, such as gear, continues to increase -> players must continue to procure these items in order to remain on a level playing field.

Why are we even debating this? You know who is really good at explaining this stuff? Those guys over at ArenaNet… you know the ones who have written essays and delivered speeches on the subject.

Oh come on, you know why we’re talking about this. We’re debating this because we are not “those guys over at ArenaNet” and we have our own opinions on the topic. Also, I have nothing better to do while waiting to get natural gas turned on so I can get heat in my home. (I need a device which runs on Internet drama, so I can patent perpetual energy.)

Anyway, you’re talking of there “not being a choice” is a bit of a situational blindness. The best people you have are not always the strongest, the fastest, or the smartest. Sure, they excel at certain tasks but in WvW sheer raw statistic advantage can only take you so far. It becomes a numbers game not in statistics but in “body count”, which is one thing I actually dislike about WvW but . . . it’s in the nature of the game.

Superior numbers (body count) can, and will trump superior statistics as often as superior tactics. Who cares if 45 people attacking you have weaker gear than the 10 people defending? You’re more than likely going to get rolled in a straight up fight.

Therefore, if I have a choice between a singular player kitted out in the maximized statistical value of effectiveness who will run off and do his own thing . . . and 6 people with 20% less effectiveness who can work as a unit? No contest who I’m picking, I’ll go for units over singular elite soldiers.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Nymia.3256:

Any activity, be it WvW or dungeon crawling, has a limited number of player slots available.
For any group who wants to be competitive in these activities (because for a lot of us fun comes from the competitive aspect), they need to be as efficient as possible.
If I can only bring 5, or 30, or 166 people to a competitive activity… I am going to bring the best people I have.

If I have a choice between two roughly equally skilled players, but one of them has 20% higher stats because of better gear, there is no longer a choice.

Therefore – in any game where the maximum stats provided by passive things, such as gear, continues to increase -> players must continue to procure these items in order to remain on a level playing field.

Why are we even debating this? You know who is really good at explaining this stuff? Those guys over at ArenaNet… you know the ones who have written essays and delivered speeches on the subject.

Oh come on, you know why we’re talking about this. We’re debating this because we are not “those guys over at ArenaNet” and we have our own opinions on the topic. Also, I have nothing better to do while waiting to get natural gas turned on so I can get heat in my home. (I need a device which runs on Internet drama, so I can patent perpetual energy.)

Anyway, you’re talking of there “not being a choice” is a bit of a situational blindness. The best people you have are not always the strongest, the fastest, or the smartest. Sure, they excel at certain tasks but in WvW sheer raw statistic advantage can only take you so far. It becomes a numbers game not in statistics but in “body count”, which is one thing I actually dislike about WvW but . . . it’s in the nature of the game.

Superior numbers (body count) can, and will trump superior statistics as often as superior tactics. Who cares if 45 people attacking you have weaker gear than the 10 people defending? You’re more than likely going to get rolled in a straight up fight.

Therefore, if I have a choice between a singular player kitted out in the maximized statistical value of effectiveness who will run off and do his own thing . . . and 6 people with 20% less effectiveness who can work as a unit? No contest who I’m picking, I’ll go for units over singular elite soldiers.

Ok, so let’s take that example.

Let’s assume for the sake of discussion that WvW is entirely based on numbers. Let’s say, just for now, that whoever brings the bigger zerg wins. And to remove this variable, let’s also assume that all of the players are dedicated WvW players who know what to do and who to listen too.

If Ascended gear in every slot, each slot requiring a considerable grind, would provide roughly a 20% stat bonus over Exotic gear…

Then 15 people have the effectiveness of 18. Then 25 people have the effectiveness of 30.

This matters, a lot. All of a sudden a 60 man WvW guild wearing full Exotics is the same as a 48 man Ascended WvW guild.

That’s a DOZEN people (equivalent to 15 Exoticly geared people) who are now free to go cap camps, simply because of the passive gear bonuses the Ascended gear provides them.

Percentages scale, too. In fact percentages scale in an amazing way – directly.

Yes, there are mitigating factors here. No, it doesn’t change the fact that this is a problem.

In any other game, I would say this is a minor issue. In a game designed around gear equality, it is absolutely game breaking.

No, it’s not. Because WvW is a hell of a lot more complex than you’re boiling it down to (twice now). It’s a number’s game (whose army is bigger) until it becomes a question of who has the better tactics and strategy. Gear shouldn’t enter into it because you can still do good in WvW without actually engaging the other players directly.

See also “night-capping” and/or “rush for the tick”.

And your math may be flawless but mathematics is only good for modeling behavior, it cannot accurately describe an outcome based on odds. 15 people with a 20% stat bonus do not automatically become an effective 18 people. They are 15 individuals with individual force multipliers, but they do not have three more bodies. There are still 15 targets, and a force facing them which is capable of meeting them, say, at a 1:2.5 ratio will probably beat them. NOBODY fights at a 1:1 ratio in WvW, that’s not the goal. The goal is to capture, outmaneuver, outplay.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

No, it’s not. Because WvW is a hell of a lot more complex than you’re boiling it down to (twice now). It’s a number’s game (whose army is bigger) until it becomes a question of who has the better tactics and strategy. Gear shouldn’t enter into it because you can still do good in WvW without actually engaging the other players directly.

See also “night-capping” and/or “rush for the tick”.

And your math may be flawless but mathematics is only good for modeling behavior, it cannot accurately describe an outcome based on odds. 15 people with a 20% stat bonus do not automatically become an effective 18 people. They are 15 individuals with individual force multipliers, but they do not have three more bodies. There are still 15 targets, and a force facing them which is capable of meeting them, say, at a 1:2.5 ratio will probably beat them. NOBODY fights at a 1:1 ratio in WvW, that’s not the goal. The goal is to capture, outmaneuver, outplay.

This is all mostly true, and I basically agree.

The point is – It absolutely matters. Anyone who says this gear doesn’t matter is either lying or doesn’t understand. It might only matter a little, but it matters. It may or may not decide the outcome of fights, but it matters.

And if the gear will continue to become inflated in the future, it is going to matter more and more and more.

Taerik.3405:

Income is easy in this game

1) get to level 80, it takes a week, from level 1, your already 65
2) Do dynamic events
3) dungeons give you loot, generally 20silver (usually more than repair costs)
4) get t6 mats, I get all mine by salvaging whites from DE and dungeons
5) salvage rares for ecto, sell exotics for money

Hey, your now making money everyday, even if you die 20x, and just by playing normally

Well..it took me quite a bit longer than a week to level to 80. But basically, this is exactly how I keep myself in funds. Except I don’t run dungeons. I farm CS once a week and all my alts harvest mats and sell junk loot.

If you aren’t levelling crafters, selling mats can make you a lot of money if you harvest as you play.

Andovar Edoras.2143:

Zid.4196:

While I personally accept low lvl people in my runs, leveling to 80 in this game is super easy. If you can’t be bothered to do even that, expect really a lot of people to kick you.

hm, i do all the events and hearts i see, crafting as much as i can, exploring, and all that, yet somehow leveling still doesnt seem so ’’easy’’. and of course i have a life too, cant just grind for levels 24/7 like some people do.

(and it might also affect that i have 2 rerolls already)

Then you have your prioritys wrong, get to 80 above all else, i dont let 80’s into my groups for that reason, they dont have enough money, and when they die alot, ive noticed some of them un equip there gear also, so i just boot them, then pick another up from my fractile guild.

OP, you’re not playing a human engineer, are you?

Is the amount of skill points, skills and stats on the gear that make players strong. So with lvl 80, you have the 6 stat runes, stronger Gems and Sigils.

Its like a six cylinder Mustang dressed up to look like a Cobra.

The game is set up for players to be min/max. Its a bit of a shame. However, If I encounter personalities as like these in game, they get blocked. Pretty simple. No room for them in my game.

francisling.2987:

Dungeons are for ‘serious’ players

Every other game dungeons were my fav, GW2 so far I stay away from, most likely due to things like this. “Dungeons are for serious players”. First who’s screwing around? Second, why so serious? Dungeons in all other games allowed players of different skills to enjoy them, if GW2 dungeons is only for thee best, then they made a big big mistake.

I don’t really have an issue with unequipping, but people that run around in a dungeon naked until “an important fight” don’t really contribute to anything,. If you’re dying frequently, and even moreso if you’re naked, I’d probably get annoyed and kick as well. The whole “max level” thing is really about people wanting to do explorables as fast as possible. Usually it’s easier if you have all of your traits, because some people build full glass cannon and then wonder why their damage is low, and they die a lot as well. The level to unlock explorable mode is fine, but the content is usually daunting for a full team of those players ie AC Exp is 35, yet, full 35’s have a hard time finishing it.

LOL you were trying to do the dungeon naked?

Oh gee, I wonder why they kicked you…

k – my mesmer was 61 when i started fractals – its sitting at 72 now

everl 5 or so levels i buy level appropriate gear for 1-2 silver or make some. my stats are equal to a lvl 80 with masterwork/rare gear (i checked – putting rare gear on my 80 gave 20 -30 pts difference thats all).

trait wise – it’s not the end of the world – i’ve just invested in some defensive trait lines before going further down the lines that would improve DPS. It hasn’t really hurt DPS to the degree where others have felt i am a detriment to groups.

i regularly avoid being downed and often find i perform alot better than several PuG 80’s i’ve met in late night groups.

I actually reccommend people remove gear before a section that doesnt require anything besides dodging and running through insta kill sections of a dungeon. It makes sense – why risk repairs when there is no benefit to wearing gear in certain situations? – it’s not hard to slap it all back on when you’ve finished a simple environment puzzle.

Not saying it isn’t nice to have a fully levelled group but to be fair i’d rather have some one who has a little common sense, says they’ve never done a part of the dungeon before and need help understanding and are patient.

besides there are plenty of plebs out there running selfish single person signet builds that dont bring any group utility and run such glass cannon builds that get others killed by sheer mind numbing stupidity.

Signet of might = 90 power passive (to self)
= 10 secs 5 stacks of might active (to self)

for great justice = 8 secs of Fury (20% additional Crit chance) – for group within range
= 25 secs 3 stacks of might – for group within range

both have a 25 second Cooldown unless traited

might = 35 power and 35 condition damage per stack

even if you get an additional 40 precision and reduce the CD of signet of might i’m just confused when i see these exotic geared elitist jerks running it in dungeons saying i can’t group with them because i’ll “obviously suck” at 60-70. (Actually kinda glad these types don’t want me in there group – i save money).

- wow i turned that into a random rant for no particular reason.

TL; DR – level doesn’t really count that much – if you’ve traited to do well in dungeons over MOAR DMG!! youre likely better traited than that glass cannon signet warrior with greatsword running that stupid kitten signet of might at lvl 80 with his pearl greatsword of the shaman and a sigil of grawl slaying in Ascalonian catacombs.

i’m going now – think i’ve embarassed myself enough…

edited: thought i saw a spelling mistake….i did – but then i’ve probably missed a fw others
-

OP, in all seriousness, I would kick you. Why should I not. FotM dungeons are already a grind after you play it more then 3 ~ 4 times.

No one wants someone that makes their grind even more grindy and/or difficult.

Just look at the amount of grind FotM introduces, for people to stay relevant. You are just compounding the issue.

Nymia.3256:

The point is – It absolutely matters. Anyone who says this gear doesn’t matter is either lying or doesn’t understand. It might only matter a little, but it matters. It may or may not decide the outcome of fights, but it matters.

And if the gear will continue to become inflated in the future, it is going to matter more and more and more.

It matters a varying degree based on a number of factors. Is the armor level below your level? It’s going to be weaker than it actually appears in downscaled areas. The gear tiering generally goes:

- White (Normal); generally easy and cheap to attain. More useful to break down into components with a salvage kit or sell.
- Blue (Fine); after a point these become more common than White, and allow a spread of 2-3 stat boosts suited to various build concepts. You will likely wind up with all-Fine somewhere around 40.
- Green (Masterwork); now gear drops with Runes/Sigils in them and have higher stats by a bit. These make good and serviceable items to use. Also, they almost all are worth at least 1 silver for sale.
- Yellow (Rare); among the best of normal drops, this gear is the highest craftable before rank 400. At 80 they’re valuable since they are a source of Ectoplasm, and are a significant upgrade.
- Gold (Exotic); this is in general the best tier of items which aren’t Ascended. Their stats are very nice, and when dropped in the wild they come with Superior Runes/Sigils which are very important for building armors up. This should be your medium-term goal once you start to get close to 80.
- Pink (Ascended); currently there’s back pieces and rings with more to come as they get it ready. There is a projected 5-8% higher stat threshold over basic Exotics (without counting Upgrades/Infusions) but there are no widespread items to make a distinction yet. This requires doing roughly 2-5 trips through Fractals, and a non-trivial amount of supplies; this is comparable to making a Gift for a Legendary. Speaking of-
- Purple (Legendary); this is the top tier, but each Legendary has a set form with numbers and cannot wildly vary. They have the same statistic level as Ascended (formerly the same as Exotic) so you’re shooting for appearance and prestige.

Everyone with me so far?

For 99% of the game, Ascended is not “required”. That 1% is “Fractal Difficulty 10+” due to Agony. Yes, the stats for the back/rings are potentially better but they are also potentially not quite in tune with your build. You also cannot upgrade them as easily as an Exotic, and an upgraded Exotic will have higher statistics than a basic/naked Ascended as it stands currently.

For the rest of the game, right now as it stands, Ascended gear is similar to how Exotics were useful but not required unless someone wanted to make a deal out of you not having Exotic. You can do passably well in Blue/Green/Yellow gear in PvE and in dungeons it is completely possible to handle them with less than Yellow gear. (I have, for the most part, done so with very limited amounts of dying. I know of at least one person bragging they were doing it with nothing higher than Green and not dying at all within Arah.)

So, if you’re trying to get a soundbite quote out of me:

“Gear matters, but skill also matters. In lots of places skill > gear.”

And it’s worth noting that having full awesome Ascended gear would, perhaps, not even have helped the original poster. The other hidden price of decking yourself out in Exotics is that they are much more expensive to repair, and thus dying becomes more costly . . . and THUS it becomes important for you to brush up your skills so you die less or that you work yourself up some deep pockets of repair funds.

I think the real issue is something not discussed.
I saw plenty of low level people bumped up in fractals doing just fine.
Lots of lvl 80s getting killed and having to repair armor. Its a fact of the game.

So if you are saying that you don’t have the money to repair, and use waypoints, and you kept dying, and believe that a lvl 65 without gear is the same as a lvl 80 with exotics….
the problem is you are bad at this game. Not your character or the mechanics but your personal skill level.

Well OP happens to be right in his choice of title. It will be difficult for him to find a group decent enough to put up with his attitude.

You’re playing a game where gear makes a difference, but not such a difference that it is the be all and end all for selecting party members.

This isn’t WoW or SWTOR or any generic grinding game where unless you got a full set of X you cant go on to do the Y dungeon who will then require grinding so you may do dungeon Z…

But gear still matters to an extent, especially in teamwork environments. Naked player would be lawl in dungeon, and not the good lawl. But more seriously as others said, gear boots up your stats even if its just blues and green and will help your team with DPS and heals overall.

It is very much the same as coming to a party with no booze, you will end up looking like a kitten. And most people won’t like that.
But doing the dungeon ungeared, you bring nothing to the party except an extra target for the mobs and not even a good one at that. Nobody likes parting with money, irl or ingame but that’s a rule in both worlds.
Come prepared and you will be treated the same as everyone else. But since you said somewhere that you are not interested in gear in any way, shape or form I have no idea how bad your gear must be, especially if you have been like that since lvl1. I apologize if that came out rude, but from what you said it is the most likely scenario.

Regarding your gold issue, that honestly isn’t anybody’s problem but your own. There is a ton of literature on how to increase your income in GW2.
Nobody is asking you to grind like crazy, but gathering mats, doing a bit of crafting and trading, a couple of dungeon runs and you should be back in the green. Sure it is a bit of an inconvenience at times, but games are full of inconveniences. Most of them by design. See that health bar ? It is pretty inconvenient that we have one, because otherwise…well we wouldn’t die and everything would be much easier. But also much more boring.
Looking out for your balance is part of the MMO fun. The economy is a loving but also cruel mistress at times. Live with it, sorry.

When it comes to people skipping you because of your level, well it’s a 50/50 issue.
I often due fractals runs with guildies that are low level. But generally never above lvl5 or 6, not by intent but its just how it’s worked for us. They usually want to check it out…like yourself…and after they did they return to leveling solo, whatever, blablabla…
Past lvl9-10 where agony starts to kick in, if you are underveleved and undergeared…well you can’t blame others for not taking you. Their time is as valuable as yours, I’m afraid.
Yesterday we took a lvl66 and lvl31 and we did fractal 1 and 2.
The fights went pretty well, there was the usual confusion that comes with first timers (but that applies to every dungeon) and most of the deaths were from the little segment of jumping puzzles (lvl80s fell as well…a lot that time around but we blame alcohol) and to be honest it was a blast.

My advice to you is to find a guild and enjoy the content with them, guildmates tend to be a lot more forgiving of each others’ mistakes…simply because they see each other every time they log on so arguing/rage-quitting would be utterly counter productive. Also it would help you a lot with finding groups to run the fractals with, dodging the awful “lfg” spamfest. Although it can’t always be avoided :p

Regarding the fun issue, well fun is a loose term and what pleases one person might not do it for another. If you don’t enjoy the game by your own accord, well it’s your prerogative to do something about it. This game is hardly a grind fest when it comes to gearing up.
IF you want to look awesome, then yes, you will have to grind dungeons, karma, mats and gold to buy skins from TP..but that is purely for the looks.
You can get a full rare set for under 2g at TP.
You might look a bit naf but your stats will be the same as the majority and THEN you can start farming the cool skins if you are so inclined. If content is all you care about, then you are set. I personally enjoy my time with guildies on teamspeak, running events/ WvW/ puzzles/ dungeons and farming that “new” awesome skin that I seem to always be after.

To wrap up, if you were willing to re-evaluate SOME aspects of your gameplay and take in SOME constructive criticism, I’m sure you would find things can go a lot more smoothly than they have until now.
But until you do that, expect to keep being kicked.

I went on here because it was exactly what I felt, but I guess I was unaware of how… dissatisfied people were with lower level player. Making it to level 80 doesn’t make you magically more “mature” then someone who’s level 60 or 70. If leveling and income is so easy in this game, then doesn’t it make you the same as everyone else?

I find this to be very similar to problems I’m having. Apparently I just can’t do Fractals until I’m 80.

Andovar Edoras.2143:

Chris.7653:

Andovar Edoras.2143:

Now that i think of it, youre All level 80 with endlessly deep pockets, arent ya..(at least the level part).

For once, would be nice to hear opinions from people with lower levels since the higher a person’s level gets, the more selfish and rude they usually get with their ’’greatness’’

Don’t you think YOU are the one being selfish here?

Because people don’t want to play with a level 65 who apparently has a bit of a temper, de-equips his gear mid instance and doesn’t understand the difference between train and utility skill, does not mean they are selfish.

It doesn’t mean they have an attitude problem or think they a great. It just simply means they want to play with who/how they want.

Do you think it is selfish for you to expect them to carry you butt naked through an instance because you don’t have the HP/Traits/Experience they do? Don’t you think it is selfish to blame THEM and making them sound like monsters for not taking you?

Again I am just trying to open your eyes a little…

sigh im tired of this arguing.
I’m not selfish, i didnt ask anyone to carry me, and its not for them to decide to kick me when its the 3rd fractal of the instance already and i decide to unequip, since everyone got killed by some trap things.

->‘’difference between train and utility skill’’ yes, i know the difference between a -train- and an utility skill, oh, but maybe you meant ‘’playing skill’’?..

I was actively doing the dungeon, and wasnt a burden to anyone, supporting them with what a mesmer can unload.

the moment you unequip your gear, you’re essentially making your party carrying extra loads just for you. That’s not fair. You have to get through the mobs to get to the boss; it’s a process. Just because you re-equip when boss comes does not make it ok to take off your gear mid dungeon run. I have no problem with lower level peeps in my party, but I would’ve had a problem with them taking off their gear.

oneleggedpony.8531:

I actually reccommend people remove gear before a section that doesnt require anything besides dodging and running through insta kill sections of a dungeon. It makes sense – why risk repairs when there is no benefit to wearing gear in certain situations? – it’s not hard to slap it all back on when you’ve finished a simple environment puzzle.

-

This….

There are a few places in GW2 where it’s ok to go roaming around naked if your not max level especially when your on your own. The places I’m referring to are the jumping puzzles in WvW. The one in Eternal Battlegrounds being the most dangerous one. That place knows no mercy. But I do agree with the OP. Repair costs are steap for a starting player with not much money. OP I would also suggest you brouse the professions forums for good builds for your particular profession. Not dying is after all the best way to avoid repair costs.