Guild Wars 2

So, I’ve been playing for a little over two months now I think. I come from a background of gaming, many years playing MMOs. And I don’t mean that to say that to qualify myself as great, just as able.

When I first started, I rolled up one of every class, played them all to about 15, read through traitlines, researched through the forums, and tried to get a feel for them. Out of all classes, I ended up leveling 3 into the 30s before settling on my first main.

About one month ago, I settled down on a long weekend I had off, and got ready to dive into my first dungeons. I was about 65 at that time. (Man, it’s easy leveling in this game). And, I will admit, my first experience with dungeons was pretty painful. Spent the better part of a day failing miserably in PuGs in AC. I managed to complete two paths in that day, out of several different groups, and many wipes.

It was a little daunting. But chalking it up to inexperience, and just the result of mostly new players, or impatient vets trying to force newbies into speed runs. Which I’m not new to, happens in all MMOs.

Anyways, I decided to post pone further dungeon diving until I hit 80, and got rares, and preferably exotics. I’ve done that, and have tried it again. Quite a bit less fail (more experienced PuGs I think and frankly, easier dungeons once past AC), but honestly, dungeon running left me wanting.

So, “Why?” I asked myself. I love so much of the game, so many things are right in GW2, the open world experience, the events, encounters, the dialog, crafting, even the micro-transaction store is well done, and that’s still a pet peeve of mine I still havn’t accepted in this modern era of gaming.

Anyways, the answer is, I love dungeon roles. It’s a necessary part of my gaming enjoyment.

I love being the tank, managing aggression, keeping everyone on me, prioritizing kill orders, using my class abilities to minimize my health loss, and keep everyone else safe. I like the satisfaction of standing at the middle of a pile of bodies, and everyone else in my party knowing I just did my job really well, and we’re moving on because I’m a competent tank.

I love being the healer, keeping everyone alive by having crunched numbers, properly utilized my resources, prioritized my healing targets, and cycled my class abilities right, so that at the end of an encounter, everyone else in my party knows that they are still standing and just defeated our enemy because I keep everyone up, and I’m a competent healer.

I love being DPS, min/maxing every facet of my gear and abilities/traits/talents to eek even the slightest increase from my output, managing my threat and making sure I am not pulling aggression, and making sure I am attacking the right enemies at the right time, so that at the end of the encounter, the healer still has mana, and I’m standing across a pile of dead bodies from the smiling tank because I killed things fast, making me a competent DPS.

I love being crowd control, forcing my self to focus intently in the thick of the action, to juggle and keep my team from getting swamped by adds, debuffing enemies, and throwing buffs out to my comrades, and most importantly breaking the fight up into bite sized chunks, so that at the end of the encounter, my tank knows that I was responsible for there always a manageable number of enemies on him at once, my healer knows that I was the reason that mean guy with a sword was suddenly sapped/deep sleeped/force lifted/blinded/charmed right before running him through.

I get only a slight bit, if any of that selfish and gratifying satisfaction playing Guild Wars 2. Instead, at the end of a fight, there is a breath, “Yay! We beat the boss… because… we all individually just managed to live by the skin of our teeth…”

I’m still here, because I’m determined to give the game a fair shake, and I’m also pretty desperately looking around for a new MMO home, and friends to call family.

But each day, I grow a little more disenchanted, because Guild Wars 2 taught me I’m selfish, and like feeling like I am important, and I can’t find it here.

TL;DR
I learned that class roles are a big deal for me, and most of my gaming enjoyment.
Sad day.

That’s quite an interesting read

But no, I don’t think getting through dungeons is about “individually just managed to live by the skin of our teeth”. Maybe it’s just me, or maybe because in my guild we really work well together, but many times i know i owe my survival to one or two of my team mates during dungeon fights (especially at bosses). guardians in particular help keep me alive a lot! in turn, i make sure i can dish out good amount of dps as well as bringing up downed team mates. We usually run with similiar ppl so i guess the advantage there is we can spec our toons more precisely to work with each other, but then it goes to show fights are not just about individuals surviving.

There’s a lot of talk saying gw2 does away with the trinity roles. I prefer to think the trinity is there, just not as obvious perhaps, and not in the same way other MMOs handle it maybe. The key difference is that not any one class/profession is really just for a specific role. Some may perform roles better/easier but all can contribute to a role, if built right.

its probably been said to death, but i really do suggest finding a good guild. its easier to define into a role, if thats what you really like, with a set of people you run with often. added bonus is they could also give u tips on how to be better at specific roles when playing specific class.

Best of luck and Hope you stay in the game :P

TL;DR

GW2 dungeon grouping is a different and refreshing slant. Some people are just naturally great in a group with others while some players just dont get it. In other mmo’s players could gear up to an extremely high level then go into a dungeon and faceroll content flexing there kitten muscles. In GW2 its more linear so you have to rely on your group to work together for the most part.

I dont miss the trinity roles from other mmo’s where I had to roll a tank or healer to get quick groups and if I was dps I had to wait around for awhile. Variety is a good thing.

@generalraccoon

Yeah, I am one that takes a studied approach to things. The main I ended up selecting was Guardian, for just that reason, I realized that I would be able to offer ample group support (relatively, for this game), and keep most enemies attention, freeing my group to do their thing in relative safety.

But I’m coming to the realization that it just doesn’t matter. I could go pure DPS, ignore everyone else, stay alive and attack the enemy, and we’d still win. Making me unnecessary.

There are times, like I said, where I do have a slight feeling of contribution, usually against trash, or something where my healing matters, and allows my team to focus on killing things and not running around kiting, and yada yada suchforth. But there is no real dependency on others. Which I understand is also one of the selling points for GW2, and something I was intrigued about, but now I see that I need it to really enjoy team play.

Shortly after my first terrible experience a month ago, I came to the conclusion I better join a guild, which I did, great folks. It helped a little, voice communication I think makes a bigger difference here than it does in most other MMOs, allowing you to coordinate. But again, and dependency you do have with a regular team is artificial, you have to create it, even then it’s partial, and doesn’t really enable you to do something you couldn’t before. (So far in my experience)

@Kumakichi

Actually, in GW2, you DON’T rely on your group members as much, which is what I explained above.

Also, I agree, Variety is a good thing – which is why the lack of class roles is so painful for me, we have less variety, instead we have several classes all geared and specced to be identical. They all take/avoid damage, they all self buff, self heal, and do damage.
That is less variety, not more.

Which by the way, isn’t a bad thing, I’ve just discovered it’s not my thing.
I just wish I knew of a modern, and fresh MMO that matched GW2’s polish.

I, too, began this game as a Guardian and saw my role to be interchangeable with any other profession during dungeons. This opinion continued I saw the utility Mesmers brought to the group (which was always noticed when no Mesmers were in the group). It was when I started dungeon farming with my Mesmer did I begin to truly see how certain classes enhanced a team composition for a particular dungeon.

Yes, you can stumble through any dungeon with any team composition. However, when you start caring about group performance and clear speed, be it for efficient use of limited play time or for competitive reasons, you really, really start to appreciate each profession and ask “What does my character bring to this dungeon?”

One example that always come to mind is the first boss of TA, the Nightmare Vines. In my set guild dungeon group, we could all five melee the Greater Nightmare Vine while only kill five of the first six smaller Vines. On an off day I decided to run the dungeon with a PUG and with an alt. Suddenly I noticed not only did I not have a permanent 25-stack Might, Fury, Regeneration and Banner of Discipline buff, but also that we were wiping to the Greater Nightmare Vine despite killing all first six Vines.

The way Guild Wars 2 was built, it’s impossible to quantify your contribution to the group. Even if you shoehorn in a DPS meter, you will only see the Warrior topping the list, but not the Might stacks and heals an Elementalist provides, nor the Protection and Aegis from a Guardian, nor the Mesmer’s Time Warp, nor the Boon stripping of a Necromancer.

Its funny, because across my toons i have a gear set for healing, tanking, and dps, along with weapons, trait sets, runes and changes in play style etc.

Gw2 does have those roles, but its is waaaaaaaaay less ingrained into the system then wow is, which basically says ‘you are a tank, here, have a tank skill so you can tank because you are a tank’.
Honestly, you sound like quite a casual player so im asuming you havent look into meta builds, trait synergy, rune effects so much (no offence intended), but if you do you will see that there certainly are roles to be played

well get used to the way things work in GW2 because MMO’s are going to be using a similar style from here on probly since it has had such a positive effect on most gamers.

You got it right. If you’re alive, is because of you. If you’re dead, it’s because of you. Ye, someone can help doing an aoe heal, but at the end.. who cares? Loads of things to do, dps down the enemies quickly. You’re down? Revved (if and when, or just left there dead, and laugh about you as a noob). Wrong game, my friend. IF what you wrote is your spirit and enjoyment playing an mmo, just change game. Some new mmo are online giving you what you need, next weeks an uber one will be online (try your chance for a beta access, i’m sure you understood what game i’m talking about).
Just leave. The disappointment will just grow up day by day. Now add some personality disordered players around you acting as a jerk (forcing you an ignore) when you was just expecting a bit of support or a spit of heal, and here you are.

Duthgar.2905:

well get used to the way things work in GW2 because MMO’s are going to be using a similar style from here on probly since it has had such a positive effect on most gamers.

I hope not. Don’t get me wrong its a Nice change but i’m a full time healer at heart. I miss following my boyfriend around keeping him alive group after group while he killed everything in our path. Wow doesn’t do it for me anymore but I hope eventually there’s a new game I can go back to being a full time healer on. I understand why they did it like this but its just not going to be my long lasting like wow did, I’ve already taken months long breaks since release just came back the other week cause I got bored of playing rift without him

Duthgar.2905:

well get used to the way things work in GW2 because MMO’s are going to be using a similar style from here on probly since it has had such a positive effect on most gamers.

I’m not so sure about this. I hope a lot of people who have played GW2 have come away with a new appreciation for the trinity system and old staples of group combat like CC.

What GW2 has done just makes things boil down to being self-sufficient and doing as much DPS as possible. Even the “soft roles” people talked about are worthless and end up being a hindrance on a group.

Case in point, in beta I came up with a hybrid shout/banner build for my warrior that focused on giving a group ~12 stacks of might and 100% regen uptime + lots of condition removal. It also has nice, steady damage. I thought this build was the kitten and I never deviated from it since beta — until about 3 days ago when I put together a cookie cutter berserker build and…wow. The massive increase in personal DPS far outweighed the benefits of my group-oriented build. My other characters pretty much follow the same model of max dps above all now too.

However, I don’t think GW2 should change. I don’t think it could change at this point and it is as it was advertised. They took the stance that waiting around for a healer or a tank isn’t fun — a DPS player issue mostly — and what we got was a DPS zergfest as a result.

I mostly heal in games. I enjoy it and get more satisfaction from excelling at it than I do from dps or even tanking. There’s triage and resource management involved and it’s nice when you’re with a tank who keeps a fast pace and pushes your limits. It’s not for everyone but to me this is all extremely fun. I’d wager that many others find it fun as well and that many people that play DPS find it more fun to have somebody else watching their health or soaking up damage for them.

I hope in the long run GW2’s approach which seems to be mirrored somewhat by TESO does not win out or, at least, older paradigms of group design don’t completely fall by the wayside.

OnionXI.6735:

Case in point, in beta I came up with a hybrid shout/banner build for my warrior that focused on giving a group ~12 stacks of might and 100% regen uptime + lots of condition removal. It also has nice, steady damage. I thought this build was the kitten and I never deviated from it since beta — until about 3 days ago when I put together a cookie cutter berserker build and…wow. The massive increase in personal DPS far outweighed the benefits of my group-oriented build. My other characters pretty much follow the same model of max dps above all now too.

However, I don’t think GW2 should change. I don’t think it could change at this point and it is as it was advertised. They took the stance that waiting around for a healer or a tank isn’t fun — a DPS player issue mostly — and what we got was a DPS zergfest as a result.

That’s at least partially because you’re playing a Warrior—in full Zerker’s you have the highest damage output in the game. And any Warrior who can play glass cannon and not get pasted all over the floor can shred through the PvE in this game like paper, they put out that much damage. Other classes don’t see near this output trying to straight DPS everything down—and it doesn’t mean that your support build was ineffective either, just that support isn’t as optimum for the Warrior as DPS is.

And yes, because the game tries to give room for a variety of party make-ups you can straight-DPS everything down if you’re good, but that’s not the only way or play, or for every class the most optimal (people like their Guardians support for a reason). You see so much Zerker’s and trying to just DPS, though, for the same reason you see more people play the DPs classes in the trinity system—because they just want to punch things in the face and get the reward for punching things in the face (loot). The Trinity is basically a teamwork band-aid to this, and games without it are just letting players do whatever the hell they want. Playing support based roles is still possible, though, and they do provide good utility to groups that aren’t a bunch of crazy DPS (and even those that are). Control… is a little trickier because of mechanics like defiant, it’s a stronger area of combat in PvP—but it can have its place too, in some builds/fights.

I mostly heal in games. I enjoy it and get more satisfaction from excelling at it than I do from dps or even tanking. There’s triage and resource management involved and it’s nice when you’re with a tank who keeps a fast pace and pushes your limits. It’s not for everyone but to me this is all extremely fun. I’d wager that many others find it fun as well and that many people that play DPS find it more fun to have somebody else watching their health or soaking up damage for them.

Well, not necessarily. That reliance—the fact that I am entirely dependent on someone else for what is a significant part of combat (healing, handling aggro), is precisely what I hate about the trinity system. I want to be able to handle myself, I want to be self-sufficient, and when I know I am then I can look to supporting my group—and there are other ways to support each other in dungeons than just carrying the aggro or healing them up. Really, GW2 has just reminded me how poorly that kind of class-setup was a poor fit for me, because I like to be far more independent.

You are evil – you just made me miss my beloved tank. I loved tanking. And I miss a former guild mate, a dedicated healer – who didn’t switch to gw2 with us.
At the same time, I remember the liberating feeling of just grabbing whoever is online and go for any dungeon. And I definately don’t miss having to do a dungeon just because someone is the only tank/heal online.
Gw2 has tons of things going for it. I tried to go back to another game, and I started to hate “traditional questing”. It just felt wrong. The exploration aspect of this game is amazing, the different ways to level up are fun.
I think the solution is easy: Play a second game. I won’t quit gw2, there are so many things I enjoy a lot. And, to be honest, gw2 doesn’t necessarily takes a lot of time of the day, and if you miss a day.. a week, maybe even a month, it’s not that bad. You can just jump right back in.

Kimeni.2509:

TL;DR
I learned that class roles are a big deal for me, and most of my gaming enjoyment.
Sad day.

Class roles still exist, even if they aren’t as prevalent. If you haven’t yet, I suggest you try Guardian or Mesmer since they both have the most pronounced non-dps roles (if you want a class with a dps specific role, go with warrior). There may not be the same tanking mechanics in this game, but if you run with more armor than the rest of your group, aggro will favor you, which is something a lot of guardians aim for.

Personally, I’ve switched to playing mesmer from a ranger and one of the things I like best about it is having a unique role. In groups, I provide dps support with Time Warp and Signet of Inspiration to increase might on allies. I provide CC by using temporal curtain to group mobs into a small pack so that they get cleaved by melee and AoE. I provide mobility with portal, and I protect the group from projectiles with Feedback and traited Temporal Curtain.

There’s a lot more overlap of roles, but they still exist.

Interesting post; my only significantly played MMO before this was City of Heros, which also lacked “the trinity” though it came closer to it than GW2, and particularly needed some aspects of it for certain subsets of play.

While I enjoyed playing a tank, a “healer” (buffers/debuffers were actually preferred to healers in that game, as they were generally more useful), and even a dps, what I most enjoyed about the roles was increasing the effectiveness of a team at doing whatever they were doing. I was not particularly wedded to a specific way of increasing that effectiveness, and I think one of the subtleties of GW2, alluded to by Ojimaru, is that increasing team effectiveness here is (1) more difficult to do, and (2) more difficult to see. Using combos effectively, especially with teammate’s powers, is harder than taunting. Figuring out WHY you have 25 stacks of Might on you in one team, vs. 3 on another, can be tough.

So I think GW2 still has the potential to fulfill that desire to do things the trinity did, but it is not as obvious when you do it or when you see it.

I appreciate everyone’s input, at the very least, it makes me feel a little less like a cranky old curmudgeon that’s just stuck in my ways.

I’d want to make it perfectly clear, I am NOT disparaging Guild Wars 2, As I said, this game has so many things going for it, and I want to love it, and the fact that so many other mechanics and choices the developers made are so perfect is apart of what is making this realization so difficult for me, but it taught me something about myself I wasn’t aware of previously, that interclass dependency based teamwork is what makes an MMO for me.

I agree, I’ll probably have to move on to another game. I was already in the process of leveling a Mesmer, but I don’t think I’m going to find what I’m looking for.

Btw, I’m fairly skeptical of TESO’s ability to not flop (I’ll still try it later). Any other recommendations?

Beyondthelol.9504:

Honestly, you sound like quite a casual player so im asuming you havent look into meta builds, trait synergy, rune effects so much (no offence intended), but if you do you will see that there certainly are roles to be played

I sincerely appreciate your input, but I’m afraid you inferred incorrectly. I described my play style pretty well in my first post.

edit:
@Kozai

Thanks, I do see, and recognize that there is teamwork, and that bringing your abilities to bear can effect your teams efficiency, as I said, I’ve currently got a geared and pretty great setup Guardian.

The issue for me is, Guardian isn’t needed, Warrior isn’t needed, Mesmer isn’t needed, Elementalist isn’t needed, 5 engineers can walk into a dungeon and complete it as long as they all can roll when needed.

Sure, throwing in a guardian or an elementalist helps the group complete content faster or with a greater margin for error, but it doesn’t actually enable them to do something they couldn’t do before.

Nothing wrong with that, selling point of the game for many, just educational for me and what I enjoy about gaming. I guess I just like being a needed part of my team, and if I go down, then a critical part of my teams function goes down with me, and we’re going to fail.

In GW2, if I fail, or anyone else in my group, meh, oh well, we’ll revive if we can, or raise them after the fight if we can’t. Everyone will still be dodging, kiting, strafing, watching their own health, and DPSing the enemy as they can – And that’s all that’s needed.

In summary, No one is necessary. I personally don’t like that. Revelation to me.

@OP

You may want to try tpvp; Roles are much more defined there.

I know this is the dungeon subforum and we’re talking pve — but generally speaking, the hard pve is about covering all your bases, and that’s done mainly through abilities, not specializing in anything per say.

I feel important every single time I do a run of anything because I know I am contributing significantly to my team and the team would fail without me. The roles may be blurred in GW2, and that may mean that everyone has to take on the greater task of managing themselves, but the game is far from selfish in its combat. You’re not only looking out for #1. I love knowing that I am traited or runed to res people fast and keep us both alive. They made a mistake, and I saved us from a wipe by being able to drop some spell and get them back up. I love knowing that my being able to cripple and immobilize and otherwise lockdown a very powerful melee boss just saved some member of my team who got nicked and downed just outside of that boss’s range. I love throwing down a wall that blocks or reflects projectiles just before an attack strikes the team that would’ve downed half of them. I love wearing down defiant stacks on bosses and interrupting their key skill, knowing that if I had missed, the boss would’ve downed or killed someone in my group. I love healing allies and myself more than they think is possible in the game, and saving a group’s life because I give everyone so much sustainability that we can handle more threatening enemies faster and with less worry. I love doing so much dps that I can single-handedly rally my entire team because I can kill a specific enemy mob before my allies die from the downed state. I love doing so much dps that I can melt an enemy before they even become a threat to the team and simplify the run for everyone else.

These things are all very self-gratifying, and after I do any single one of them (and others I didn’t list) I feel great knowing that my contributions made the team’s success possible. It isn’t as clear-cut as “I am a healer, I heal” and “I am dps, I dps” and “I am a tank, I tank”, but once you come to terms with that, you realize that the breadth and depth of GW2’s combat facilitates you being able to achieve self-actualization through all of those roles simultaneously, in any mixture you want to build yourself for, when doing the end-game content.

If you can’t or won’t see any of that, what you’ve really learned is that you like one-dimensional roles. That’s not bad, nor is it good; it is what it is. I like GW2’s combat so much more, though, and I feel more pleased with myself playing this game than playing any other MMO with the trinity. That’s why I’m sticking around for the long haul.

Rising Dusk.2408:

I feel important every single time I do a run of anything because I know I am contributing significantly to my team and the team would fail without me…(cut)

Great post, thanks!

Most of those things you listed, are things everyone in the group can bring, no mater their class. Or at least that’s how I feel right now.

And your group probably won’t fail just because you’re not there, or doing what you do, unless they’ve designed their characters to rely on you. Which I mentioned earlier, artificial reliance that creates a minor simulacrum of dependency, but doesn’t have a corresponding increase in over all effectiveness.

I havn’t given up yet, and I’m still trying to find what I want.

@Thz

I was waffling on that. I havn’t competitively done PVP in any game for about 3 years now, perhaps that is where I should go.

Thanks for the tip.

Every group is weaker with 4 than it is with 5. The team-wide support both offensive and defensive is significantly reduced when you lose a player. It may not spell death to your whole team like in other MMOs where “our healer died, we’re going to wipe”, but I think that makes for a more fulfilling experience overall for me. It means that I can still be a valuable member of the team and still achieve something significant even if we lose a player… Maybe we can res that player through our player skill and save the team from a wipe. Maybe we can have one player who is particularly good at dodging tank a very dangerous boss while we do that res, and then in that case, the player dodging is absolutely ‘tanking’ the boss.

It’s not so cut-and-dry as other MMOs, which is why you feel like you’re contributing less even though that’s not actually true. Your role is more diverse, and your contributions more varied. For me, that’s more satisfying than being a dedicated healer or dedicated tank.

Rising Dusk.2408:

It’s not so cut-and-dry as other MMOs, which is why you feel like you’re contributing less even though that’s not actually true. Your role is more diverse, and your contributions more varied. For me, that’s more satisfying than being a dedicated healer or dedicated tank.

Good point, and I’m glad that you love it!

You can do those things on any class, and therefore, anyone that is prepared and able to manage it that’s in your group can do it too. Which… is great, I suppose. I just don’t like feeling like a generalist rather than a specialist. Or not being critical to the task at hand, (selfish, I know :P)

You’d be surprised how easy it is to specialize, though! My guardian uses a build that is specifically tailored for support, but has abysmal DPS. That said, because of me, my team has significantly improved DPS as a whole thanks to my might stacks, and my team survives much better against overwhelming odds thanks to my boons. Similarly, my Warrior has incredible DPS, and many times on that character I can get in an enemy’s face and beat them up for 20k+ damage in mere seconds, but I definitely can’t survive a lot of attacks back at me. So to sum it up, yes, anyone on your team and any class can bring all of the things that a team needs, but you can also choose to specialize and be good at any one of them over the others. You’d be surprised how legitimate a healer an Elementalist can be, for instance!

Kimeni.2509:

Btw, I’m fairly skeptical of TESO’s ability to not flop (I’ll still try it later). Any other recommendations?

Apart from what’s already out, WildStar looks like it’ll keep the trinity system for the most part.

The nice thing with GW2 is it’s not an either/or proposition when it comes to other MMOs.

Yeah as Thz suggested, tpvp is where the roles are more defined. Although, there isn’t a healer role per say…but specific roles for the team exist.

Rising Dusk.2408:

You’d be surprised how easy it is to specialize, though!

I sense a trend! I purposely have not posted this until after I’ve learned and become well versed in the game. I’ve reserved any kind of decision or judgement until I had a chance to participate in all types of PvE, I’m familar and quite comfortable in my knowledge of what each class can bring to the table.

So, no, I won’t be/wasn’t/am not surprised. I’ve already experimented with several options with my guardian – and they’ve worked well, for what they are.

See, the group you’re talking about with the might stacks, and the healing that you provided… they still complete the content when you arn’t there. You increased their speed, or improved the margin of error, but you havn’t enabled them to do something they couldn’t without you (and your class). They could have done the dungeon by dropping you and picking up a Thief, or a Warrior, or… an afk Elementalist. because each class is self sufficient, and can handle everything, it just get’s easier the more people you stack together doing damage and not dying.

Maybe the answer is finding a new group of people to run with that are interested in creating our own teamplay.

Thanks for your help, Rising Dusk.

And thanks for the tip on Wildstar, I’ll keep an eye on it, though it doesn’t look like it’s up my alley.

Roles are very well defined in end-game teams, PuGs are just mostly DPS-specced people and that’s you you get the feeling there are no roles.
Roles are there, just need to invite people that actually specs into them.
I have a support Guardian and my team members rarely die due to my shields/walls and protection uptime.

Of course roles in GW2 are less child-proof than say WoW.
Even though a Guardian can protect you it’s not as brain-dead as not having to deal with damage at all, you still have to dodge, heal and pop defensive CDs.

If you cannot bear that you’re not pidgeon holed into DPS alone and need to take care for yourself without someone pulling all the challenge to himself I’m sorry but you will have to change game.

The main reason people play this game is due to the active, action combat where responsibility is handed out equally to all dungeon members instead of just 2.
For people who want to lock themselves into doing a DPS rotation while 2 members take care of the whole dungeons there are many games out there that offer this, where you can watch animes while the tank and healer carry you around.

Red Falcon.8257:

Even though a Guardian can protect you it’s not as brain-dead as not having to deal with damage at all, you still have to dodge, heal and pop defensive CDs.

Right, and all those dodges, heals, and defensive cooldowns will protect you whether or not there is a Guardian in the group.

And… your comments about wanting to pass off responsibility and/or challenge are silly and unnecessary, I’ve explained already that is apart of what I’m MISSING in GW2, it has less responsibility – not more.

Just wanted to comment that I’ve been picking up my mesmer again who was outfitted with primarily berserker gear (some of the weapons were ravager though). It’s an awesome build, made for shattering and delivers some real pain in dungeons. I could solo some stuff pretty well with her build like that thanks to all the damage and illusions I’d create. The cons though were she’d practically get 2-shot by trash, and when teammates go down, it was near suicidal for my mesmer to help with her low health and no armor and you practically had to shatter illusions after their first round of attack as they’d be destroyed by a single blow. Even in personal story missions, I would get wiped several times because of those Orr mobs being buffed (seriously, I’ve never struggled with personal story before that change and revisiting it now it’s just crazy!)

I’ve been interested in alternate builds though and was looking at different ways mesmer can support and tank. I just swapped some traits around (10/20/10/25/5) and dropped some karma on per/tough/healing gear with a few power/tough/healing trinkets and weapons. It’s a pretty drastic change! My damage is pretty horrid although my phantasms still hit pretty good, but I can practically face-tank stuff! And my illusions can survive those Orr mobs in story (it helps that I can heal them and myself constantly)! I’ve never had a mesmer build so far where my illusions aren’t one-shot wonders and if feels fresh. I feel it can get a bit better after I hone my strategies with it as well as refine my gear for the set-up…and I still have my berserker gear/weapons for when I feel like swapping back.

TL;DR
Zerker DPS builds can be fun but so can being survivable, especially after playing zerker characters.

Kimeni.2509:

Red Falcon.8257:

Even though a Guardian can protect you it’s not as brain-dead as not having to deal with damage at all, you still have to dodge, heal and pop defensive CDs.

Right, and all those dodges, heals, and defensive cooldowns will protect you whether or not there is a Guardian in the group.

And… your comments about wanting to pass off responsibility and/or challenge are silly and unnecessary, I’ve explained already that is apart of what I’m MISSING in GW2, it has less responsibility – not more.

I’m not sure about where you’re coming form when mentioning individuals having less responsibility; Everyone has to perform greatly and pay attention. I think you’re becoming deluded thinking that speciality like UO and other games where every class is clouding your judgement.

Let’s take WoW as you’ve probably played it and it’s the biggest MMO out there. The only reason why there are defined roles in that game is because xyz all need each other NO MATTER WHAT. Now let’s look at gw2. XYZ still exist, you’re just being feeble minded and not looking at the grand picture. XYZ are necessary to get through most end-game content. the difference is, every class has a heal and I think that alone is clouding your judgement of roles.

When you play a priest in WoW arena, you don’t sit back and heal; You also help dps and cc. GW2 emphasizes those off roles. If you can’t wrap your mind around it then you should just quit.

Let’s keep it civil, please.

Thz.7569:

Kimeni.2509:

Red Falcon.8257:

Even though a Guardian can protect you it’s not as brain-dead as not having to deal with damage at all, you still have to dodge, heal and pop defensive CDs.

Right, and all those dodges, heals, and defensive cooldowns will protect you whether or not there is a Guardian in the group.

And… your comments about wanting to pass off responsibility and/or challenge are silly and unnecessary, I’ve explained already that is apart of what I’m MISSING in GW2, it has less responsibility – not more.

I’m not sure about where you’re coming form when mentioning individuals having less responsibility; .

That was simply a comment regarding Red Falcon’s statement. No need to call me feeble minded, I appreciate this this has remained friendly, and have enjoyed the conversation so far.

-edit for clarification:
That was from the following perspective, if your team mates depend on your less, or don’t depend on you at all, then you naturally have less responsibility. If your team is doomed when you fail, then you have greater responsibility.

I’ve already explained that I’ve learned that GW2 doesn’t offer what I love with detail in the first post. I accept that I can’t find it here, and I’m interested in hearing what it is that various people find rewarding about the dungeon experience in GW2, or if they felt the same way and then how they developed around it. Or if they still feel the same way, but have just decided to deal with it to enjoy an amazing game.

I can assure you, I’m not feeble minded, or deluded. It’s a game – a game that doesn’t offer the same sort of reward that traditional MMOs offer, but I didn’t realize how much I would miss until I didn’t have it here, and that’s why I’m talking about it.

Interestingly, the game Dungeons and Dragons Online has some parallels, almost every class can fill any role, or be built to solo any content, but team play is still encouraged because it’s facilitated by class abilities, and dungeon mechanics, mob mechanics and AI.

If only it wern’t being run into the ground by it’s developer.

You want somethign that isn’t available; There is no conversation to be had. Noone can convince you of something you’re obviously so adamant about. As I said, quit the kittening game. Your ignorance will only push you further towrads the edge. There is absolutely nothing to be found with such a close mind.

Actually, It just means you have nothing further to add to the conversation.

I am interested in others that have had similar feelings and what they have done to get something out of the game.
I’m am interested in others opinion.
I am interested in suggestions of other games that perhaps I just don’t know about.
I am interested in hearing from someone that’s a part of a group that has purposely built all their characters to have more classic teamplay.

The only thing I’m not really interested in is someone calling me dumb because I don’t enjoy games for the same reason they do.

Close minded? I guess.

Kimeni.2509:

-edit for clarification:
That was from the following perspective, if your team mates depend on your less, or don’t depend on you at all, then you naturally have less responsibility. If your team is doomed when you fail, then you have greater responsibility.

I think you are mixing it up, it’s not that you have more responsibility in trinity MMOs, it’s just that the weight of your responsibility is bigger and more fatal to your team. Since your team need you to fulfill all 3 roles in GW2, you actually have more responsibility, but it’s just less detrimental if you fail at it.

In other games when I’m playing as tank, the only responsibility i have, is to taunt and keep aggro on me. People are not expecting more then this from me, same as healer, all I have to do is watch the health bar and keep it filled. I don’t call this more responsibility, but the one responsibility I have is just more detrimental to my team.

Nephitis.8201:

Kimeni.2509:

-edit for clarification:
That was from the following perspective, if your team mates depend on your less, or don’t depend on you at all, then you naturally have less responsibility. If your team is doomed when you fail, then you have greater responsibility.

I think you are mixing it up, it’s not that you have more responsibility in trinity MMOs, it’s just that the weight of your responsibility is bigger and more fatal to your team. Since your team need you to fulfill all 3 roles in GW2, you actually have more responsibility, but it’s just less detrimental if you fail at it.

In other games when I’m playing as tank, the only responsibility i have, is to taunt and keep aggro on me. People are not expecting more then this from me, same as healer, all I have to do is watch the health bar and keep it filled. I don’t call this more responsibility, but the one responsibility I have is just more detrimental to my team.

I appreciate your perspective, and can see that. For me, the weight of consequence determines the volume of the responsibility.

Why does it seem like whenever anyone has a problem with this game, the fanboys show up to insult them and tell them to leave?

I have the same problem though. I love healing, even the dealing with stupid people. Tanking is ok, and being in a DPS race was never my thing. I chose to main a guardian because I was under the impression that they were the closest thing to dedicated healers the game had. Unfortunately, that seems to only mean while in well organized, high end guild groups. After 70 levels, every group seems to be everyone just running around swinging their weapons frantically. There doesn’t seem to be any recognizable group roles, it’s just a mad melee with every man fighting for himself.

I suppose I could just stick to guild only runs, were it not for the fact that the most active guild I’ve seen so far had something like 30 people in it.

Bhargo.5306:

Why does it seem like whenever anyone has a problem with this game, the fanboys show up to insult them and tell them to leave?

I have the same problem though. I love healing, even the dealing with stupid people. Tanking is ok, and being in a DPS race was never my thing. I chose to main a guardian because I was under the impression that they were the closest thing to dedicated healers the game had. Unfortunately, that seems to only mean while in well organized, high end guild groups. After 70 levels, every group seems to be everyone just running around swinging their weapons frantically. There doesn’t seem to be any recognizable group roles, it’s just a mad melee with every man fighting for himself.

I suppose I could just stick to guild only runs, were it not for the fact that the most active guild I’ve seen so far had something like 30 people in it.

You can still try and juice the support guardian in pve. All you have to do is go healing power(obviously) and run sigil of stamina. Constant endurance refreshes means repeated pbaoe heals for your team. You can also choose to run boon duration with this giving everything support oriented as possible. The boon duration is not jsut for protection and regen, but will also help with maintaining might. This in turn not just helps your earshot distance team members but will also put your damage at a decent level. Mix in some precision for perma vigor and you have yourself an amazing support character.

I just get kitten at things like this because people are too dense to figure kitten out and instead are quick to complain. If one likes to spend 80% of their time staring at health bars, then they shouldn’t be playing this game.

Thz.7569:

I just get kitten at things like this because people are too dense to figure kitten out and instead are quick to complain. If one likes to spend 80% of their time staring at health bars, then they shouldn’t be playing this game.

Actually, you’re missing the point. Does your team depend on you for that?

That’s the discussion here.

Furthermore, this game has intentionally been designed very simply. When you boil it down, your ‘too dense to figure it out’ is really just selecting 7 traits, reading the weapon skills, and then itemizing your gear to match. Calling someone too dense to do that is presumptuous and insulting.

And beside that, blatantly wrong, and a sidetrack from the conversation.

Go away, or partake of the discussion without insulting me and others.

-edit
Btw, I do still appreciate your recommendation to try tpvp, that was helpful. And I will look into it some more to see if it’s viable for me. I’ve only dabbled in the PvP of this particular game so far.

Well, you could always start a trend. Find a really good support build and just run around playing it. Save enough people and perhaps they’ll be inspired.

I’m not so jaded with the game to boil it down into its simplest form, although some find it fun to maximize performance, there’s also maximizing utility and support. Players that tend to gravitate to maximization understand their damage performance and run-time will suffer but that’s not really the point.

The only way you’ll actually fully understand a profession is to test and trial its different aspects, using and abusing its traits with gear and marking your successes and failures…

I’m just hoping the devs see a need to make more variation in build options…and by options, not talking about damage since everyone can spec into damage and do well as it is. They could improve how healing power scales or vary the different things it can affect or add more traits aimed at support specs.

Even if they buff the kitten out of specs aimed at support, I doubt you’ll see an influx of them since they aren’t needed…but I wouldn’t throw out the prospect of ‘needing’ a support character for a dungeon…it’s a kitten load more interesting than the kittens that ‘need’ to cheat to get by. I’d hugely rather just tell the group to hold on a second while I log onto a support specc’ed character or just jump to a trainer and retrait vs “alright guys, stack here”

-bleh-

Nice spirit , Leo G. I was playing my necro long ago with the same attitude, learning every single bit of it. Not reading a kitten of uberl33t builds around some peeps was pretending to explain. If there was more variables, as you said, so much would have be learned and studied. I guess we are just rare.

Leo G.4501:

I’m just hoping the devs see a need to make more variation in build options…and by options, not talking about damage since everyone can spec into damage and do well as it is. They could improve how healing power scales or vary the different things it can affect or add more traits aimed at support specs.

That’s a great point, it would make my day if the game were headed in that direction.

And as far as starting a trend, I’m working on it! ;)

Last night ran some dungeons with another guardian specced similarly to mine, it was fun stacking our abilities.

I really like your idea of changing the way healing scales, that and maybe making the way aggro works a little more aggressive, and making it a little more effective to keep aggression by stating for toughness would be a great way to incorporate some kind of tanking for someone who wants aggro.

Don’t even need to change enemy damage, but enabling someone to reliably hold agro, would allow others to further focus on DPS by avoiding toughness, which would make a stronger healing type position favorable for the game.

Mmm, great thought, Leo.

Good news Lucas! Most people that play games (studies have shown) don’t pay attention to internet stuff related to it. And learn via in game experience.

It’s the same thing I did, leveling up each class to unlock the traits window, and getting a taste for how they play before narrowing down the playing field and then further experimenting with some classes.

Some do, that’s true. Many more just use a youtube/text guide, learing a “guide” and a “formation to make it work”..

Kimeni.2509:

Thz.7569:

I just get kitten at things like this because people are too dense to figure kitten out and instead are quick to complain. If one likes to spend 80% of their time staring at health bars, then they shouldn’t be playing this game.

Actually, you’re missing the point. Does your team depend on you for that?

That’s the discussion here.

Furthermore, this game has intentionally been designed very simply. When you boil it down, your ‘too dense to figure it out’ is really just selecting 7 traits, reading the weapon skills, and then itemizing your gear to match. Calling someone too dense to do that is presumptuous and insulting.

And beside that, blatantly wrong, and a sidetrack from the conversation.

Go away, or partake of the discussion without insulting me and others.

-edit
Btw, I do still appreciate your recommendation to try tpvp, that was helpful. And I will look into it some more to see if it’s viable for me. I’ve only dabbled in the PvP of this particular game so far.

You’re absolutely right and I went off the rails of the actual topic into a bit of a rant; My apologies for that.

I think a better way for me to go about adding to the conversation in a short way is this: Necessities are present and certain classes bring these things. It’s not “role” based but it’s what we’re given. The roles are very blurred and a lot of people have a hard time adapting. I use adapting because you either want to work with it or you don’t, in your case it looks as if you really wnat to because you like the game, but having a hard time feeling important.

I’ve played support in games, and competitively, for about a decade (stopped the last few years). It feels awesome, and I excel at that. Do I miss that feeling? Yes. Can you get it in GW2? A little. I believe the biggest reason I’m open minded is because I played 8v8 in GW1 and was introduced to a support that didn’t master healing. I played a prot monk for years and with that I came to understand a different angle on helping your group.

I’ll keep playing GW2, but being a long time gamer who misses very pronounced archetypes, I’ll be dabbling in CU (Camelot Unleashed), as your qualms are valid and I’m coming to see I feel the same way a bit but choose to ignore it because GW2 is GW2, and that’s all it is.

Thz.7569:

…into a bit of a rant; …

No problem, and great post! Perfectly understandable, the subject material is on a tiny island with rantable material on all sides! Haha.

Also, kudos and +1 to you for a classy recovery! Well done, sir. I was worried this was just going to degenerate further.

To your point, that is probably alot of my issue, I didn’t transition into Guild Wars 2. I tinkered with GW1 probably for a total of like 10 hours, and never got into, or any grouping besides a couple friends that were trying to get me into it.

So I have gone from 100 typical MMOs, to Guild Wars2. I am encouraged that you understand where I’m coming from, and hopefully my tastes will evolve to appreciate what we have here.

I’ve only heard about CU, not looked into – will do that now!

Again, thanks for your input!

I think the biggest difference between this game’s dungeons and those other games’ dungeons are that in a role-defined-by-class system, you may well be the only one who can fulfill that role in a group. Heals? Usually just one. Tank? Ditto. CC? Rarely more than one dedicated CC class, if any. DPS, whatever spots are left.

If you are the only one filling a role, your contribution is very noticeable. In GW2, you have to stand out in a different manner. Your build and skill has to speak for you, and that is neither as easy nor as noticeable unless the other people in the dungeon know what they’re about. Good players will recognize good play.

Kimeni.2509:

The issue for me is, Guardian isn’t needed, Warrior isn’t needed, Mesmer isn’t needed, Elementalist isn’t needed, 5 engineers can walk into a dungeon and complete it as long as they all can roll when needed.

Sure, throwing in a guardian or an elementalist helps the group complete content faster or with a greater margin for error, but it doesn’t actually enable them to do something they couldn’t do before.

In GW1 (my only other experience), if your party wiped, you were kicked out of the dungeon completely. In GW2 on the other hand, if you wipe, you can just WP and try again. So it’s true that if your party composition and roles are not adequate, you can just keep trying again and probably eventually complete the dungeon. But I would not say that is because some roles are unnecessary but that there is a mechanism in place that makes it rather difficult to not complete the objective. I have been in several groups that wiped multiple times and eventually completed the dungeon. Without adequate DPS as well as adequate support and protection I think it would be very difficult to complete most dungeons without wiping at least once. 5 glass cannon berserkers might be able to complete CoF path1 without wiping but I rather doubt most such groups would be able to complete Arah at all, even allowing for multiple wipes. I agree that skill and experience are most important, and maybe it’s just my own skill level and PUG experiences. But I want at least one high dps warrior and at least one guardian and also a mesmer in my group if possible. So, what I am asking is whether you would feel the same way if waypoints were not available in dungeons?

zacharias.5437:

So, what I am asking is whether you would feel the same way if waypoints were not available in dungeons?

Excellent question.

Raising the stakes, and making a significant penalty for failure, like dungeon failure, might actually change things in my favor. Several things, probably – like running past trash whenever possible (pet peeve), and making players take a slower more methodical approach, possibly having more defined roles.

But I don’t think just removing way points by itself would make a significant difference, other than causing more groups to break apart if they met too much resistance and wiped.

What Guild Wars 2 Taught Me.

“Holy Trinity” (7years playing WoW) taught me that Tank and Healer are the most important roles that requre skill and dps can suck You will still succeed, but if a tank or healer sucks even having the most skillfull dps You will die*

*comparing 5man to 5man

Still in GW2 You can play a certian role and players who has their “eyes” will see what You did there, and will acknowledge Your skill and the benefits You bring in Your team.

GW2 Taught me, than the skill of EVERY one shifts on the whole team. If 1 is bad 4 still can do it but it takes longer, if 2 are bad it can take even longer solo is hard but is still doable (sometimes) etc. (not all fights but You get the point) in a holy trinity game if 1 tank of healer role was bad You had Your time hard, not fun or impossible to finish a dungeon.

So yes Holy Trinity fight mechanics are nice, but the fact that I have 4 friends and none of us wants to play a tank or healer and still we can do a dungeon and have fun of it is better than a Holy Trinity one were 2 peaple have to go tank/healer fo party’s sake even if They don’t like the role… than I take the non-HT one.

In “roles” (Tank/Healer/Damage) MMO You have to do a certian role, this is how the game is, but when You look on GW2 from the classic T/H/D point of view You do it wrong… there are fights and encounters where individual skills makes your group succeed or not, if You are not coordinated You will fail and it’s nothing selfish about it.

The most selfish thing is to force a player to go tank or healer becouse without him it’s impossible to finish the encounter – or You can wait for… forever sometimes. Tanks and healers where in fact the most selfish “roles” i ever known.

Tank: “better do what I say or I leave and You will wait 20 min for another tank!”
Party: “okay…”
Healer: “ kitten STFU or no heal!”
DPS: “okay :<”

Not all tanks and healers where like this but most of them where. Here You are not irreplaceable, so don’t act kitteny.

But not all situations where this bad, sometime @ raid nights a tank needed to go becouse something happened or he just got a blackout or his computer got troubble working and we couldn’t continue, time wasted had to disband – gg.

So having a “role” to play is sometimes good, but there are also bad thing about it IMO.

Yet GW2 is still a young game and maybe future content dungeons will be more “team play” depending rather than “npc depending” of “just nuke” – not all fight are like these but most of them are.

But it’s all a matter of taste.

Tank: “better do what I say or I leave and You will wait 20 min for another tank!”
Party: “okay…”
Healer: “ kitten STFU or no heal!”
DPS: “okay :<”

Well lol i can confirm this idiot attitude you described. Happened well, on pugs, where idiots groups up.
A guild would never talk like this, the member would be instakicked from the guild for his attitude. That’s how trinity games work.
Clearly nowadays the trend is be dynamic, able to cover every role if possible, clearly doing the most damage possible. TESO (Seems) should have something similar. PSO2 has it, way better than gw2. Everything works perfectly, and everyone is useful, noone is essential, things works. The “healer” is not healing? Drink a potion and the fight continues, you can just wait there died if playing as a noob. Still, i cannot remember one single chat on pso2 where others around you (even those idiot western players harrassing a japanese game with their elitist illuded attitude) ever called someone “lol noob”. OP, be open to move out of this game. Anet is not gonna plan to make you feel this game funnier or worthy. Better is available online, more is coming.
Gw2 was fun, why not. First 4 months. Lol

Lucas Ashrock.8675:

Nice spirit , Leo G. I was playing my necro long ago with the same attitude, learning every single bit of it. Not reading a kitten of uberl33t builds around some peeps was pretending to explain. If there was more variables, as you said, so much would have be learned and studied. I guess we are just rare.

Kimeni.2509:

Mmm, great thought, Leo.

Heh, thanks

But I could be biased. I’m playing a support mesmer in PvE right now that I just re-specc’ed and it’s pretty interesting. I only wish there was a little more omph to her, either in CC or support.

I really like your idea of changing the way healing scales, that and maybe making the way aggro works a little more aggressive, and making it a little more effective to keep aggression by stating for toughness would be a great way to incorporate some kind of tanking for someone who wants aggro.

Don’t even need to change enemy damage, but enabling someone to reliably hold agro, would allow others to further focus on DPS by avoiding toughness, which would make a stronger healing type position favorable for the game.

That’s an idea, yeah. But brainstorming ways to improve support specs (mainly for PvE though) might be off-topic here. It’d be an interesting read though. I’d start a topic myself if I didn’t have this curse that resulted in all my topics never getting discussed

Kimeni,

I don’t think Guild Wars is perfect. But I do think the current anti-trinity system is fantastic. And here’s why: all play styles are valuable and useful but none are required.

I don’t think anyone is questioning whether dps is viable in GW2, so I’ll skip that.

Healing and control are all still important. Snaring a boss on my elementalist and then laying down a healing field, for example, makes a huge difference. People may not thank me for it, but I can see the difference when I switch to my warrior.

Tanking is still powerful. I find that with a hammer guardian, good dodging, and altruistic healing, I can face-tank quite a few bosses. (Funny that a hammer is the best tanking weapon, right?) For example, I was playing my elementalist and Lieutenant Kholer crushed our pug group through two wipes. This was mostly because the rest of my group were dying like fruit flies. Anyway, I switched to my guardian and stood toe-to-toe with him while laying out near constant protection for all the melee players on my team. We rolled that overgrown ghost and the rest of the dungeon. I found great satisfaction in being a difference maker, in looking at people’s status bars and seeing protection up on almost the whole team. And in that case, I knew for a fact that my skill as a tank was key.

But these roles are not required. A massive DPS group can win. A more support oriented group can win. A mix can win. It all comes down to the talent of the individual players.

Because the roles are not required, I get to play however I want, tailoring the way I play to what I enjoy. In other words, I find that a dungeon group can win in any way.

Naturally, players will start to tend towards the most efficient option, massive DPS. I’d say that has more to do with player temperment than game design. But the mere fact that all options can be viable is mmo heaven to me. I can play any way I want and, as long as I do it well, my team will prosper.

Are you needed? Not in one role. What you are needed for is your skill. Play whatever role you like and you will benefit your group.

Just my little attempt to keep you playing a bit longer.

Kimeni.2509:

Original Post

I understand your frustration to a degree. I played a healer almost my entire time playing MMOs minus a period of tanking in WoW. It was rough at first on GW2. However, I think you’ll find out with proper study that there is a lot of diversity in how you run a dungeon. For example, some classes mitigate conditions better than others, and some spread boons better than others, and some help overcome certain encounters via pure utility better than others.

No, this game isn’t about managing aggro, et al. However, it has its own role dynamics. Figure them out. =) That is the fun of it. It still has roles, they are just dynamic and require different strategies to be employed based on group make-up.

If you are looking for a place to call home, you should come to Tarnished Coast and join Evolutionary Breakout [EVOL]. =D We’re a bit new and recruiting and range in experience, and we’re all sturdy folks. If we get knocked down, we get back up and figure out why and grow from it. We would like to find more people looking to foster a close-knit guild. Having a group of people you enjoy playing with and talking to can multiply the enjoyment of a game by many times.