Guild Wars 2

Hey there!

In this post, I am going to address issues that have been bugging me a lot over past few days. After 2 years of Guild Wars 2 exsistence, these issues still persist and I haven’t heard a single word from Anet about them being fixed.

Before we get going, this is mainly focused at current meta of doing things in Guild Wars.
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TL;DR Scroll down to Part 2 and follow the link, enjoy more reading!
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PART 1
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Let’s start …

Currently, there are 24 different stat combinations to choose and build from. I’ll make a list of them and cross out those that are almost never used in the game:

• Berserker’s
• Zealot’s
• Soldier’s
• Valkyrie
• Captain’s
• Rampager’s
• Assassin’s
• Knight’s
• Nomad’s
• Settler’s
• Giver’s
• Sentinel’s
• Sinister
• Carrion
• Rabid
• Dire
• Winter
• Cleric’s
• Magi
• Apotheracy’s
• Celestial

Bolded out are stat combos that are useful in PvE (excluding the new Living Story content); Crossed-out are stat combos that are never or almost never used; Underlined are stats that are rarely used; and in italic are stats that are used for PvP related content only.

From what you can see in the list above, there’s only one stat out of 24, being used for PvE content.

7/8 professions are utilized and traited 100% based on damage – with guardian being the only class that has trait points and utilities based on support.
5/8 professions have a stable spot in PvE-related parties – with necromancer, engineer and ranger being the least or unwanted professions.

Moving on …

We have 8 dungeons and 24 dungeon paths (story instances excluded). Only 14 of those are being ran on daily basis.
Out of those 14 paths being run on daily basis, 7 (+/- 2) of those paths have bosses that don’t include stack and kill tactics.
Only 2 of those bosses can actually deal any real damage to the players and the damage dealt by that boss can instantly kill you – they are both in Arah. One is Lupicus and the other one is final boss of path 2.

If we draw a line here and pull out few conclusions, we find out that Guild Wars 2 has no combat complexity, although it is advertised as a dynamic game which is very different from other MMOs.

PART 2
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To make this game more appealing, I’ve made a wishlist of things I think are the pillars of this game and need serious rework and restructuring.

You can check it out by following this link:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CE5hmboBFMXIo_5DulMR6vl2bq-PMLjHHpDLoThsVkY/edit

PART 3
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If you are about to leave your comment, keep in mind this is solely my opinion and is based on what I think the game should look like in the future.

Q&A:

Q: Holy trinity that you mention was never intended for Guild Wars 2. Maybe you should go play some other MMO.
A: Holy trinity that I mention and the way I describe is not the one used in standard MMOs. Anet has promised a type of trinity before the game was released and due to unknown reasons, they’ve left that concept unfinished.

Q: Do you realize you can play any role you want? Just join parties that don’t say meta zerker speedruns!
A: I know this and I do run meta, but it’s boring, it doesn’t bring any challange and complexity and the whole concept of current meta is based on exploiting issues with current AI and other mechanics such as buffs and debuffs.

Q: The bard has nothing to do with lore, why would you even mention them?
A: I love the idea of defeating your opponent by using musical instruments, that’s all. I know it’s not lore-correct but it’s still on my wishlist, up there with playable centaurs and dwarves.

Q: By classes, do you maybe mean professions?
A: Yes.

I might add more quick answers later on.

I got through part1, few comments already…

First, 1/24 stat combos used? you showed yourself it’s 2/24

Second, Meta Mesmer has multiple builds, some of which include support traits (warden’s feedback anyone?). Thief will also swap for longer stealths for some skips if they feel like it.

Third, Subject alpha and Alphard can both one shot as well.

0.o

(( goes to get pop corn )))

Jerus.4350:

I got through part1, few comments already…

First, 1/24 stat combos used? you showed yourself it’s 2/24

Second, Meta Mesmer has multiple builds, some of which include support traits (warden’s feedback anyone?). Thief will also swap for longer stealths for some skips if they feel like it.

Third, Subject alpha and Alphard can both one shot as well.

Assassin’s gear is viable for some professions but isn’t common.

Mesmers are useful but not too demanded for meta parties. I haven’t played my mesmer a lot but as far as the build goes, only thing that wasn’t DPS oriented was switching traits for additional glamour skill duration mostly for fractals.

As for subject alpha and alphard, they don’t fit in the category of non-stacking bosses so their one shot abilities don’t fit into a counter-argument to my statement sorry.

O.o??

Mesmers are part of almost every record run, and if we’re not talking record runs then engi and rangers both have spots if properly played.

Again though, Warden’s feedback is the key support trait on mesmer, also far reaching manipulations to get some of the portal tricks done more efficiently. Even Harmonious Mantras at times could be fitting, though I don’t think it’s generally meta.

Also, Subject alpha isn’t stacked in Meta runs, maybe PUG runs, but path1 it’s very dumb to stacks, and path 2/3 you’re going to save time by simply rushing in and killing, especially the second spawn.

(also, even if it’s only a few professions who prefer assassins, it’s still 2)

Jerus.4350:

O.o??

Mesmers are part of almost every record run, and if we’re not talking record runs then engi and rangers both have spots if properly played.

Again though, Warden’s feedback is the key support trait on mesmer, also far reaching manipulations to get some of the portal tricks done more efficiently. Even Harmonious Mantras at times could be fitting, though I don’t think it’s generally meta.

Also, Subject alpha isn’t stacked in Meta runs, maybe PUG runs, but path1 it’s very dumb to stacks, and path 2/3 you’re going to save time by simply rushing in and killing, especially the second spawn.

(also, even if it’s only a few professions who prefer assassins, it’s still 2)

You’re mixing meta with competitive record dungeoneering.

Meta is the standard and best option to go when doing daily dungeons. It’s based on PUG groups rather than competitive guild groups. In competitive guild groups, rangers and engineers also find spots due to 10% and 25% damage increase (ranger the spirit and engineer vuln stacks).

Also, many competitive guilds refrain from using exploits such as stacking and using fiery greatswords.

FGS!!!!! O.o
I love it.

Before I dive deeper into this discussion, I have one small question regarding this:

Q: Do you realize you can play any role you want? Just join parties that don’t say meta zerker speedruns!
A: I know this and I do run meta, but it’s boring, it doesn’t bring any challange and complexity and the whole concept of current meta is based on exploiting issues with current AI and other mechanics such as buffs and debuffs.

If you think meta is boring, and if you know that you don’t need to run meta, then why do you run meta? If you think stacking is an exploit, then why join groups who stack? You need ~5 minutes more to find such groups. I know this for a fact because it’s exactly what I do when I am bored.

klemen.8439:

Also, many competitive guilds refrain from using exploits such as stacking and using fiery greatswords.

How long has it been since you’ve done a dungeon?

Molch.2078:

Before I dive deeper into this discussion, I have one small question regarding this:

Q: Do you realize you can play any role you want? Just join parties that don’t say meta zerker speedruns!
A: I know this and I do run meta, but it’s boring, it doesn’t bring any challange and complexity and the whole concept of current meta is based on exploiting issues with current AI and other mechanics such as buffs and debuffs.

If you think meta is boring, and if you know that you don’t need to run meta, then why do you run meta? If you think stacking is an exploit, then why join groups who stack? You need ~5 minutes more to find such groups. I know this for a fact because it’s exactly what I do when I am bored.

I disagree with current meta but I still want to get the shinies. And for shinies you require gold, of course I will go with the most efficent way to gain it.

Sometimes when I’m bored, I join those “all welcome” parties for AC and carry level 35s and I do enjoy doing that but it just doesn’t give me what I need.

petyr baelish.9675:

klemen.8439:

Also, many competitive guilds refrain from using exploits such as stacking and using fiery greatswords.

How long has it been since you’ve done a dungeon?

Why do you ask? I do them every day joining meta groups.

However, I do quit the game after a week or two due to lack of motivation to keep playing it, but whenever I return after a month or few, I barely notice any changes so.

I ask because you mention stacking bosses and using FGS. I assume with stacking you are referring to using LOS to place bosses against walls.

A new meta thread in a different location? Pass me that popcorn.

petyr baelish.9675:

I ask because you mention stacking bosses and using FGS. I assume with stacking you are referring to using LOS to place bosses against walls.

99% of PUG meta groups I join still use LoS to lure monsters/bosses in corners. FGS was just an example of how competitive guilds refrain from using what some call exploits.

TPMN.1483:

A new meta thread in a different location? Pass me that popcorn.

I’ll go put us a bag in the microwave.

Here we go again..

Edit:

OP: Please enjoy reading this 29 page thread:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/This-Meta-has-to-end/first

When you’re done, feel free to whine more while we enjoy our popcorn.

So, let me get this straight: You want all those huge changes to the game and your only reason is because… the way you want to play the game is not the way you get the most shinies…

Egoistic. There are people who like the game as it is, what about them? And by the way, stacking in corners with meta groups is not even close the best way to make money.

Edit: I want to mention that this is only about the gameplay changes you suggest. A lot of the other stuff, like new classes or better game balance are very valid points I’d love to see.

Well there are some great suggestions. And i think it’s pretty nice, of you putting that much effort in creating this text.

First of all there should be the posibillity given for players to do a dungeon run by themselves, giving them better rewards then going in a group – maybe even sharing their time on a leaderboard which will be updated on a daily basis and giving players – at the end of the week because of their rank / time / bosses killed, extra rewards.
So in my opinion there should be a solo mode added to every dungeon, of course the way some dungeons function at the moment to fit this idea should be changed.

As far as alpha goes – killing him on his spot is much faster. In respect of the party members knowing what to do and dealing nice damage of course.

Most of bosses are killed faster by stacking on them – corner stacking is stupid most of the times and a segnificant damage loss, in most occasions.

Well, easy mode – not really needed in my opinion the current mode is already the easy mode in most scenarios.

I think it’s a nice idea for the trinity to come back – just to give players, who want to play that way the posibillity to do so. Guild wars offers a lot, without a doubt but adding raids and a hard legendary mode, could be satisfaing in many ways.
With that said, legendary mode – I like the idea of a mode, in which everything is considered a challenge and thefore creating certain roles.

The whole light / heavy /medium armor thing must be reworked COMPLETELY. Wearing heavy armor, not dying as easily but still dealing tons of damage – but classes with lower armor – dying easier dealing the same or slightly higher damage – that’s not near balancing what so ever.

Still most of the parties you’re joing are pugs. Playing exotic styles, using weapons which are useless – blasting fields which are even more usless..Well, I still think that many runs are a chellenge.

The funny thing about the current meta or what bugs me a lot is. Well if the group wipes it’s everyone’s fault or just the guardians (to give him a profession) cleanse or stacked enough might or moved a little bit out of the corner, boss moved 2 centimemters therefore rendering every skill useless that way.
In other MMORPGs it’s the healer’s fault – because he couldn’t outheal the damage dealt by the boss or whatsoever.

Zention.1849:

In other MMORPGs it’s the healer’s fault – because he couldn’t outheal the damage dealt by the boss or whatsoever.

Some thing which happened to me in gw1.
pug over extends. Then it is somehow the monks fault for their death.

GG logic.

Molch.2078:

So, let me get this straight: You want all those huge changes to the game and your only reason is because… the way you want to play the game is not the way you get the most shinies…

Egoistic. There are people who like the game as it is, what about them? And by the way, stacking in corners with meta groups is not even close the best way to make money.

Edit: I want to mention that this is only about the gameplay changes you suggest. A lot of the other stuff, like new classes or better game balance are very valid points I’d love to see.

I don’t see how it’s egoistic from me when all I’m asking for is this game to be fixed.

The way combat mechanics are now and the way the AI acts in dungeons is far from how it was designed. Anet promised us a type of trinity but a different one from what we see in classic MMOs. Instead of healing, dps and tanking, we were supposed to get support, dps and control. Hence why we have so many control skills but at the moment, we’re only using 80% of DPS, 19% of support and 1% of control. That is far from a balanced and challanging trinity.

I know many people like it and that’s the problem. There are way too many comfortists in GW2. The blocks and blinds are overpowered for PvE the way stealth is overpowered for PvP. AI should never act the way they do (following into corners and not using all skill rotations when in range under 150).

I’m sorry if I’m attacking you with this reply but by saying,

Egoistic. There are people who like the game as it is, what about them?

this is the dummest counter-argument I’ve heard in ages. Of course everyone will love exploits and use them as long as they can, doing the easy mode. But there are also people who don’t like exploits and want to play the game without bugs – afterall we did buy it and personally I buy lots of gems.

The people who like the game as it is are comfortists and they’ll like it however the game will be, as long as they can make quick gold. Who is being egoistic here would be rather you because you leave out all those newcommers who want to play the game as they like it, but sooner or later find out that their cool necromancers, rangers and engineers aren’t that desired in dungeons and that they can’t play healer/tank/support roles the way they enjoyed them in previous MMOs.

And what’s even more heartbreaking is that sooner or later, they all find out that this game is 90% melee in PvE. Those 10% are ranged bosses with PUGs in high level fractals.

It’s almost impossible to get completely new players to MMO genre in 2012-2015, when there were so many other MMOs players were exposed to pre-GW2 and many have preferenced playstyle based on those previous MMOs, so having no type of trinity is lack of complexity.

The only problem with control is that with how defiance is set up it really requires good communication. If you watch the videos of premade groups they utilize it quite well, if anything close to that was possible in a less organized group with less communication then control wouldn’t be viewed so negatively.

As far as Support… /shrug, look at most trinity games. 1 heal,1 tank, rest dps, so yeah…

As far as the reply in general… I’d have to argue the opposite. The idea that people enjoy the current setup is exactly why major changes shouldn’t happen. Now some new content with altered AI and what not, that coudl be cool. But nothing kittenes off a player base more than massive changes to the current gameplay. Look at SWG NGE if you want the prime example.

And personally I think blinds are possibly a bit overkill, but mainly just thief’s, the rest are more like blocks… you can’t block everything. Active defense is what makes this game fun, if you play correctly you can really do well. It’s not about wearing the right gear but having enough skill.

You can only fix things that are broken. Just because you think that something is broken doesn’t make it broken. Just because you say “THIS is an exploit and THIS is not” doesn’t make it true. You say “AI should never act the way they do” and I ask you: “Who the heck do you think you are to make such absolute claims?”

If there are people who dont play gw because they cant play a healer, thats fine by me.

Oh and edit: I want to remind you that your entire statement is still based on the fact that you want the best results. As soon as your “new player” doesn’t need his legendary in 2 weeks he can do whatever the heck he want. And thats the great thing about this game. Not everything is optimal, but everything is possible. Go back to gw 1 and try uw hm with, idk, 8 minion masters or 8 prot monks and tell me how well that went.

Won’t comment on this one, I was toxic enough for today. I lol’d at the fgs part, though.

Try the Noob guild, they help people inexperienced in dungeons.

Jerus.4350:

The only problem with control is that with how defiance is set up it really requires good communication. If you watch the videos of premade groups they utilize it quite well, if anything close to that was possible in a less organized group with less communication then control wouldn’t be viewed so negatively.

As far as Support… /shrug, look at most trinity games. 1 heal,1 tank, rest dps, so yeah…

As far as the reply in general… I’d have to argue the opposite. The idea that people enjoy the current setup is exactly why major changes shouldn’t happen. Now some new content with altered AI and what not, that coudl be cool. But nothing kittenes off a player base more than massive changes to the current gameplay. Look at SWG NGE if you want the prime example.

And personally I think blinds are possibly a bit overkill, but mainly just thief’s, the rest are more like blocks… you can’t block everything. Active defense is what makes this game fun, if you play correctly you can really do well. It’s not about wearing the right gear but having enough skill.

That’s your opinion and I’ve gotta respect it for that but I will still argue with it.

Changes are always welcome, even major ones. Current player-base in Guild Wars 2 doesn’t consist of core players – those who are willing to dedicate to the game 100%. Percentage of such players is rather small because they aren’t satisfied with the game how it is, and I’m one of them. Just look at how many players GW2 had at launch and how many it has now. Or look at how many veteran players still play every day … not too many.

We were promissed things before the launch and the promisses weren’t kept. I’ve seen some work done in this direction (increasing boss damage – hence why we got 1 shot kills and wipes) but they were fail attempts to fix combat issues.

The concept of blinds and blocks is nice but if they negate 100% damage, it gives berzerker gear in such huge advantage that we get 1 out of 24 stat combinations being used in GW2.

Not to mention that conditions currently have NO solid state in PvE.

This game is huge, it has tons of potential but it’s all hidden behind 1 build and 1 gear. The game is far from satisfying everyone’s playstyle as it should and it’s far from working the way it was designed to work.

As far as skill goes, currently, there’s no skill other than making sure you survive.

There’s next to none team-work other than 321go mechanics which are laughable, there’s no complexity and skill rotations remain the same for 2 years.

And I’m not saying all this requires no skill as we’ve got some kitten good guilds but they are guilds afterall and they use minimalist things for best possible outcome, using great teamwork – but that is currently impossible and not glorified in PUG parties.

Having more build complexity and more combat mechanics, suiting everyone’s playstyle, this game’s learning curve would grow huge. Currently, once you learn when to dodge, block and blind, you’re the master of this game.

oxtred.7658:

Won’t comment on this one, I was toxic enough for today. I lol’d at the fgs part, though.

Try the Noob guild, they help people inexperienced in dungeons.

Maybe read before judging people’s experience I’ve been playing this game for 2 years using meta, even doing hardcore dungeon speedclears but I am sick and tired of doing the same thing in same content for 2 years straight.

Molch.2078:

You can only fix things that are broken. Just because you think that something is broken doesn’t make it broken. Just because you say “THIS is an exploit and THIS is not” doesn’t make it true. You say “AI should never act the way they do” and I ask you: “Who the heck do you think you are to make such absolute claims?”

If there are people who dont play gw because they cant play a healer, thats fine by me.

Oh and edit: I want to remind you that your entire statement is still based on the fact that you want the best results. As soon as your “new player” doesn’t need his legendary in 2 weeks he can do whatever the heck he want. And thats the great thing about this game. Not everything is optimal, but everything is possible. Go back to gw 1 and try uw hm with, idk, 8 minion masters or 8 prot monks and tell me how well that went.

If that’s the case and I’m mistaken about mechanics in this game being broken,

• How do you explain 23 unused stat combos, with 20 of those primarly designed for PvE, considering PvE is the vanilla?
• Why do developers add monsters that are only vulnerable to condition damage? Is it because game isn’t broken and they just want to add additional stuff or is it because they want to slowly fix and balance it out?
• If being able to stack against the wall, preventing monsters to use certain skills, isn’t a broken mechanic or an exploit in other words, what do you call it? Skill? I doubt
• If the mechanics aren’t broken, how come with each patch we get a fix for content, just like Spider Queen was fixed not too long ago? Same goes for Lupi, Alphard, …
• Why were there nerfs done to Berzerker builds?
• Why did they introduce ferocity?

These are questions you can start with, I’m sure I can think of more later on.

In case I am wrong, I will stand corrected. However, I would love to hear Anet’s official opinion on their satisfaction with the game as it is right now.

Again, 2/24…

As for the rest, I just have to say I disagree on just about everything but the comments on Conditions (which to my knowledge are only good in PVE for a few professions in solo settings).

I will point out, that you seem to understand that teamwork is available and is good in this game, it’s simply that PUGs don’t take part in it. I’d like to highlight that last part, why do you think PUGs don’t utilize these advantages that we can gain through teamwork (defiance stripping, reflect rotations, stealth, etc)? It’s simply because PUGs don’t like to communicate, so any changes that would require more talking… how popular do you think it’ll be?

What bosses don’t use skills if you stack btw? I know Lupi won’t use his Rapid Fire if you wall him, but what others? I know there are some bosses that have melee and range attacks and will use whichever the situation demands, but that’s not the same thing.

*All stats are used outside of speedclears and optimized runs. The fact that berserker is the best doesn’t imply that all stats aren’t usable.

• Monsters aren’t only vulnerable to condi. THey have high armor rating, that’s all. A berserker build is still faster in killing time due to the ramp-up time and the condition cap.
• This show how much you need a teaching. Please tell me one skill lupi or alphard won’t use against a wall.
• The ferocity patch actually increased a lot the damage output in low level dungeons. It was a nerf only for level 80 dungeons.

But yeah, please tell us more about your daily dungeon tour using fgs.

Edit, flood control: Engi and mesmer use assassin armor in most, if not all of their meta builds.

Jerus.4350:

Again, 2/24…

As for the rest, I just have to say I disagree on just about everything but the comments on Conditions (which to my knowledge are only good in PVE for a few professions in solo settings).

I will point out, that you seem to understand that teamwork is available and is good in this game, it’s simply that PUGs don’t take part in it. I’d like to highlight that last part, why do you think PUGs don’t utilize these advantages that we can gain through teamwork (defiance stripping, reflect rotations, stealth, etc)? It’s simply because PUGs don’t like to communicate, so any changes that would require more talking… how popular do you think it’ll be?

What bosses don’t use skills if you stack btw? I know Lupi won’t use his Rapid Fire if you wall him, but what others? I know there are some bosses that have melee and range attacks and will use whichever the situation demands, but that’s not the same thing.

Currently, zerker is the best meta because you can basically negate the damage by 100% using various techniques.

Now, I never said we should force implement anything like trinity.

By making those damage modifiers such as blinds and blocks less effective, while also fixing bosses’ damage values (removing one shot kills and adding more damage over time attacks), it would create a greater demand for support and control. Keeping bosses with melee attacks away from your DPS core party would be cruical, as well as the support, which includes healing, buffing and removing debuffs.

A PUG party currently doesn’t need to communicate in order to still do things efficently. However, by changing the way damage modifiers work, it would demand from players to prepare themselves for each situation. It would work similar to now, except there would be much more complexity if one will be unable to just 100% block and ignore all the damage.

Spider queen didn’t use poison AoE fields until recent patch.
Lupi doesn’t use dome while in melee range.

There are of course other bosses that have the same issue but along with that, the game is too focused on melee combat and limits playstyles available.

Oh also, I’ll give you the 2/24 when you’ll tell me one class that efficently and commonly uses full Assassin’s build.

oxtred.7658:

*All stats are used outside of speedclears and optimized runs. The fact that berserker is the best doesn’t imply that all stats aren’t usable.

• Monsters aren’t only vulnerable to condi. THey have high armor rating, that’s all. A berserker build is still faster in killing time due to the ramp-up time and the condition cap.
• This show how much you need a teaching. Please tell me one skill lupi or alphard won’t use against a wall.
• The ferocity patch actually increased a lot the damage output in low level dungeons. It was a nerf only for level 80 dungeons.

But yeah, please tell us more about your daily dungeon tour using fgs.

And the condition issue has been also adressed in my google doc presentation. Of course you would know that if you read at least combat parts of it or even by looking at table of contents.

Lupi doesn’t use dome when in melee range. That’s for one.
Alphard’s minions are often obstructed while you are in melee range and stacked against a wall/corner.

The fgs was only an example of how competitive guilds ignored exploits, once again. If you read it, you would know what I said and wouldn’t twist words. My conv with you is done until you grow some respect and until you fully read and understand what is said.

As for the part of being able to play any build, ONCE again, if you read things, you’ll be much wiser. Here’s a quote from the first post pointed exactly at people like you:

Q: Do you realize you can play any role you want? Just join parties that don’t say meta zerker speedruns!
A: I know this and I do run meta, but it’s boring, it doesn’t bring any challange and complexity and the whole concept of current meta is based on exploiting issues with current AI and other mechanics such as buffs and debuffs.

Pull your head out of your butt, bye.

Flash news: you can be in mele range without a wall.

“Also, many competitive guilds refrain from using exploits such as stacking and using fiery greatswords.” Yup. They don’t use it because it’s suboptimal. Fgs was nerfed months ago and you probably just discovered it.

“7/8 professions are utilized and traited 100% based on damage – with guardian being the only class that has trait points and utilities based on support. "

Warrior banners aren’t a personal dps gain ( not even including phalanx) . Mesmer meta build is purely support. Using pistol 5 on a thief is a dps loss. Ele’s persisting flames and weak spot aren’t the most damaging option. S/F lh isn’t as well. Ranger spotter and frost spirit aren’t max personal damage option. Engi vuln on crit isn’t either, and they bring a ton of party utility. The only class without much support from trait is.. necro. THe only left out class in the meta. THis meta is purely about support with offensive gear.

“5/8 professions have a stable spot in PvE-related parties – with necromancer, engineer and ranger being the least or unwanted professions.” “ac p1, all welcome.”

“We have 8 dungeons and 24 dungeon paths (story instances excluded). Only 14 of those are being ran on daily basis.
Out of those 14 paths being run on daily basis, 7 (+/- 2) of those paths have bosses that don’t include stack and kill tactics.”

You may run those 14 paths of yours. I run all paths but se P2 and half of the stories. Your own dungeon tour =/= everyone’s way of playing. Stacking is just a side effect of being in melee range, wich isn’t an exploit. Stacking against a wall is more often than not a time loss.

And the list goes on.

klemen.8439:

(excluding the new Living Story content)

stopped reading.

its funny that you think dire sees no use

Engi/Mesmer meta is both assassin. Mesmer due to reflects and Engi due to both damage potential math and “on crit” abilities. IIRC Guard and Ele both have setups where assassins gear is optimal (on guard I think it’s only partially).

GW2 is far from the only game to use one shots. One shots are actually more important in other games IMO. They are what keeps people having to play well instead of fully leaning on the healers to simply heal them out of any trouble. In EQ we had emotes prompting you to do different things, (run away, look away, duck, etc), and DCUO we had things that we would have to dodge (no dodge button but there was a roll).

GW2 doesn’t have healers though, so our defensive options need strength, unless this is to become a game where it’s more about healing yourself than actively avoiding damage… which honestly, it can be… Take a look at this, even Lupis “one shots” can be made to not be that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKO11Y55DTM.

Making Blinds and Blocks not fully block damage would literally destroy the combat that I love about this game.

SQ didn’t use to use poison fields in melee range, it had NOTHING to do with the walls, as I said, there are melee and range attacks on NPCs, if you’re at range you get the range attacks, if in melee you get the melee, then some attacks are both and you’ll get them in either. SQ was changed not due to a bug but because of the constant complaints by people who didn’t understand the game mechanics.

For example, Lupi’s kick will not trigger if you are at range, and his bubble will not trigger if you’re in melee… which answers your other “example”.

If you want an example of where a wall will prevent an attack, Lupi’s Rapid Fire in phase 3 will not trigger if he’s on the wall… again that’s literally the only one I can think of.

Nothing is stopping range fighting in most places. It’s simply easy, boring, and usually takes longer due to lower dps so people don’t want to do it. I’ve done Lupi ranged… it was terrible and I never want to do it again.

refrain is still a present. You may rephrase it now, but the way you said it implied it was still a thing. Calm yourself a bit, and answer my points if you really thing i’m that dumb. Shouldn’t be too hard to prove how wrong I am. I swear i’m really good at attracting people’s wrath.

I’ll comment on the trinity specifically for now:

In most stock MMOs, in a group that’s essentially competent and knowledgeable about the content they’re facing — i.e., the sort of stock MMO group that you should be comparing GW2’s “zerk meta pugs” to — healers don’t actually do much healing — just tank healing and dealing with the occassional mechanic that was put in place specifically to serve as a “healer check”. The remainder of their time is spent DPSing, or possibly performing silly emotes.

From that, it follows that stock MMO-style healers would only enrich the game significantly with content design that specifically included healer checks, but there’s a whole cornucopia of other forms of support that could be directly checked in a similar way (and this has already been done with projectile absorbs/reflects, such as in the Uncategorised Fractal) — which suggests that GW2’s content already has all the potential for richness that dedicated healers could offer.

As for tanking, most traditional tanking implementations I’ve seen would do a lot to hurt the utility of classes like the mesmer, thief, and engineer — why bother with stealth and swiftness and the like when you can just have a tank do a sac pull?

Moreover, the game already makes successful use of co-ordination and positioning checks — such as Ralena & Vassar from AC and the Dredge Fractal boss — despite not having stock MMO-style tanks.

As for the assertion that trinities somehow lead to better teamwork, please could you explain your reasoning?

Give me a B!
Give me an I!
Give me a N, G, O!

What do we have?
BINGO!

evilunderling.9265:

Moreover, the game already makes successful use of co-ordination and positioning checks — such as Ralena & Vassar from AC and the Dredge Fractal boss — despite not having stock MMO-style tanks.

As for the assertion that trinities somehow lead to better teamwork, please could you explain your reasoning?

24 paths, excluding story instance and I did say dungeons. Fractals are great as they are – mechanic wise.

To answer your question, let’s take a sample PUG meta group:
1 Guardian, 1/2 Elementalist, 2/3 Warriors – this is what I call a standard group.

In that group, warriors in particular, pre-cast their banners and after that, all they do is solo. Not solo as in soloing all the bosses but mind their own business. There’s no to little cooperation and the only actual cooperation we have is those 321go bits of the dungeon that are pathetic.

Elementalist also spawns a fire field, does ~3 blast finishers (considering eles usually run staff in PUGs) and after that, it’s minding their own business.

As for guardian, this is the only profession currently that focuses on other players over himself. It’s the reason why I chose it as my main profession (and don’t get me wrong, I play all 8 prof on lv80 meta). It is one of rare classes that has to adjust his skills to the situation for group’s sake – wall of reflection, stability, protection, aegis and so on and so forth.

Sure warriors, eles, thieves and mesmers also have to adjust their skills to the situation from time to time but …

… skills eles will get are self-dependent and don’t benefit the group (flash, mist form).
Skills warriors take are also self-dependent and don’t benefit the group either (berzerker stance, dolyak signet, …).
As far as mesmers go, they aren’t as demanded class for daily speedclears, but when they are needed, their extra duration on glamour skills does indeed impact the group so they’re a class in-between.
Thieves will change skill sets but only for stealth stacking which is also questionable. There’s no content that actually requires you to have stealth from a thief, as long as you’ve got the skills for it. It does make that content easier with a thief however, therefore I put them in question.

Currently, there is no actual teamwork, the one where team needs to synchronize their skill rotations, positioning and what not. And in the current build, this is acceptable. Why?

Well, with 5 members spamming as much DPS as they can create, any boss in a dungeon will die within 10 seconds – giving them no to little chance of even using some of their abilities.

However, in my presentation I didn’t jump on this problem from a perspective that we need a nerf for current damage. Rather than that, I suggest we make ourselves more vulnerable to bosses’ attacks and that will start a process of creating a demand for some sort of trinity, more teamwork as players will need to cooperate and help eachother if they are to survive the fight.

Although, I doubt this would be enough for major changes, so I also suggested a fix for AI, where they don’t follow you up in a stack. From lore and sence perspective, how much sense does it make that a human-sized boss can take on a team of 5 outstanding heroes? Well, in a stack, very little as the boss can’t use the enviroment to his advantage – it’s similar as if you’re cornered by a group of 5 street fighters. In an open fight however, the boss, even though your size, can pick his targets and make his focuses, taking you down one by one and equalizing the fight. Such mechanics are used in fractals and they work, why not have them in dungeons as well? Well, we probably have them, they just don’t work properly.

On top of creating the demand for more support and fixing how AI acts in fights, I also suggested a few solutions for rewarding system.

Since the fights would last longer – considering not everyone will be able to 100% spam their DPS all the time – time to complete content would extend. To make it worthwhile, I’ve made few suggestions for different dungeon types and difficulties:
Easy mode to attract lower leveled players – bosses wouldn’t use too many abilities,
Normal mode as the one we have now,
and Hard mode where bosses would get BAM mechanics.

As the final difficulty I suggested a legendary mode or a raid, but more about that you can read in my presentation.

All this stuff is to bring complexity to the game. I don’t want DPS and berzerker to disappear, they’re very useful stats and I’m fully aware that everyone will try to play at highest DPS possible, it’s just the risks we take for such high DPS need to be higher in order to create a bit of a challange.

Every stat-combination is used in dungeons. Not neccesary by the people you play with, but I know enough people running condition damage, celestial, knights/zerk mix or whatever. Noone of them calls them best and noone joins “p3 gear check 17k AP” runs, but they are not useless. That’s quite an insult.

Lupicus Dome is caled “Necrid Trap” and he uses it on tragets that stand not near enough to him. If you don’t try to run away from him, why shold he try to trap you? And Bosses using different moves for melee and ranged targets is fine imho.

They introduced ferocity because they wanted to make crit dmg work like crit chance. It is kinda strange if you have to watch out to use rings for crit dmg and not pants or vice versa because one of them gives a better % to statpoints ratio.

And they nerfed Zerk because some people were crying. And it changed nothing.

By the way, what is your problem with blinds and blocks? Both aegis and blind only negate one single hit, and many mobs hit multiple times with a single attack. Good luck stacking against arah trash mobs without projectile protection. They own some mobs, but I dont see the problem with that.

But I agree with you about condition damage. That needs to change. Also some bigger bosses and new dungeons and new classes and whatever, yeah, sounds good. But you see, a new class doesnt gives you more content and more lore. Only a team of hard working people can do that. And I dont see that happen in the near future (or ever). So this discussion is kinda pointless I think…

Molch.2078:

Every stat-combination is used in dungeons. Not neccesary by the people you play with, but I know enough people running condition damage, celestial, knights/zerk mix or whatever. Noone of them calls them best and noone joins “p3 gear check 17k AP” runs, but they are not useless. That’s quite an insult.

Q: Do you realize you can play any role you want? Just join parties that don’t say meta zerker speedruns!
A: I know this and I do run meta, but it’s boring, it doesn’t bring any challange and complexity and the whole concept of current meta is based on exploiting issues with current AI and other mechanics such as buffs and debuffs.

Molch.2078:

Lupicus Dome is caled “Necrid Trap” and he uses it on tragets that stand not near enough to him. If you don’t try to run away from him, why shold he try to trap you? And Bosses using different moves for melee and ranged targets is fine imho.

The problem still persists, such mechanics glorify the use of melee and that’s against the mindset to suit everyone’s playstyle. Ranged damage in dungeons is ignored and that’s not right. With the balance of DPS-Defence ratio, that would change as the more risks you have to take to deal higher DPS, the squishier you would be and along with proper boss mechanics, that leads to stay behind and range the boss while tankier people can melee it.

The whole concept of warrior, being vanilla class, is wrong. You can’t have it all, you can’t have highest hp, highest armor/defence rating and fit in top3 highest DPS in the game. That’s wrong, higher the risk, higher the DPS is how it should be.

And don’t get me wrong. I know there are classes that do excel at ranged damage – Ranger having 5k auto attacks on longbow range over 1.000 and elementalist getting 10% damage boost while in range of 600. I also know elementalists risk a lot by staying at melee range but they could easily stay at 600 range and still deal the same if not more amount of damage due to easier upkeep of 90%+ HP Scholar buff. However, for the sake of party, you are to stay stacked on boss to exploit the targeting mechanic which I haven’t adressed. The problem with it is that the damage will spread among 5 people instead of a single or doubble target, and that again results in less need for support, no need for control, in fact control is NOT wanted usually as it pushes bosses away, and easier use of full on DPS builds. There’s no complexity here.

Molch.2078:

They introduced ferocity because they wanted to make crit dmg work like crit chance. It is kinda strange if you have to watch out to use rings for crit dmg and not pants or vice versa because one of them gives a better % to statpoints ratio.

And they nerfed Zerk because some people were crying. And it changed nothing.

And I’m not saying to nerf zerk, I’m suggesting to improve mechanics such as AI and buffs/debuffs to create demand for more supportish roles. Along with advanced AI, this would finally bring the long promised trinity that Anet introduced pre-launch – Support/DPS/Control.

Molch.2078:

By the way, what is your problem with blinds and blocks? Both aegis and blind only negate one single hit, and many mobs hit multiple times with a single attack. Good luck stacking against arah trash mobs without projectile protection. They own some mobs, but I dont see the problem with that.

With thief spamming blind fields or guardian spamming F1 on a meta build while killing trash mobs, when done properly, it negates 100% damage income. What bothers me here is that being able to do such things with any build, it leads to everyone using berzerker as it is highest DPS. The problem here is, higher risks = higher damage, but when you can easily negate 100% of incoming damage, the risk doesn’t persist.

As for the blocks, if you play with a guardian that knows when to time his blocks, you are once again able to negate 100% of incoming damage. Of course, I’ve split blinds and blocks into two issue categories – blinds being an issue versus multiple monster stack where as blocks being an issue versus single targets such as bosses.

The idea of blocks and blinds is good but if we want to create demand for game complexity and usage of other builds in the meta, their effects need to be nerfed.

i know this is highly unlikely, but it feels that all these threads about the meta needing to change are created by the same person with a lot of different accounts

klemen.8439:

The whole concept of warrior, being vanilla class, is wrong. You can’t have it all, you can’t have highest hp, highest armor/defence rating and fit in top3 highest DPS in the game.

wait where did you get this info from? warrior is definitely not in the top 3 dps in the game. Isn’t it like 5th or 6th?

Minigrump.4961:

i know this is highly unlikely, but it feels that all these threads about the meta needing to change are created by the same person with a lot of different accounts

Not really, it’s just probably people getting sick and tired of doing exactly same thing they did 2 years ago. Stack, buff, spam dps – 0 complexity, 0 challange.

At least I am sick and tired of it. Most of posts against current meta I’ve read are from people disappointed with the fact that their prefered professions and playstyles aren’t as efficent. And I understand them, it’s totally true and it needs to change but there are too many people enjoying the comfort of mindless buttonbashing and easy grind.

Minigrump.4961:

klemen.8439:

The whole concept of warrior, being vanilla class, is wrong. You can’t have it all, you can’t have highest hp, highest armor/defence rating and fit in top3 highest DPS in the game.

wait where did you get this info from? warrior is definitely not in the top 3 dps in the game. Isn’t it like 5th or 6th?

I’m not speaking on base of minimalist profesional and proper party specs and calculations. I’m speaking based on PUG meta and in PUG meta, warrior is easy top 3 DPS because to out-dps a warrior with a guardian/ranger you need greater knowledge to skill rotations and find proper use for them.

Even in proper groups, warrior is still easily top4 DPSer, sharing 4th place wiht guardian probably – don’t take my word on it though.

klemen.8439:

Minigrump.4961:

i know this is highly unlikely, but it feels that all these threads about the meta needing to change are created by the same person with a lot of different accounts

Not really, it’s just probably people getting sick and tired of doing exactly same thing they did 2 years ago. Stack, buff, spam dps – 0 complexity, 0 challange.

At least I am sick and tired of it. Most of posts against current meta I’ve read are from people disappointed with the fact that their prefered professions and playstyles aren’t as efficent. And I understand them, it’s totally true and it needs to change but there are too many people enjoying the comfort of mindless buttonbashing and easy grind.

please tell me in what situation inside a dungeon would you just button mash and it being mindless? And there is complexity and challenge, but it is stale, 2 year old content. So for that bit I agree with, that we need new content. But sadly Arena Net disbanded their dungeon team and are no longer paying any attention to dungeons.

klemen.8439:

Minigrump.4961:

klemen.8439:

The whole concept of warrior, being vanilla class, is wrong. You can’t have it all, you can’t have highest hp, highest armor/defence rating and fit in top3 highest DPS in the game.

wait where did you get this info from? warrior is definitely not in the top 3 dps in the game. Isn’t it like 5th or 6th?

I’m not speaking on base of minimalist profesional and proper party specs and calculations. I’m speaking based on PUG meta and in PUG meta, warrior is easy top 3 DPS because to out-dps a warrior with a guardian/ranger you need greater knowledge to skill rotations and find proper use for them.

Even in proper groups, warrior is still easily top4 DPSer, sharing 4th place wiht guardian probably – don’t take my word on it though.

I think it goes ele, thief, engi, guard(with unscathed contender), ranger, warrior, mesmer.

I left necro out because nobody uses necro. And I might have gotten guardian and ranger mixed around tho with their spots.

Edit: for proper groups, not pugs.

Minigrump.4961:

please tell me in what situation inside a dungeon would you just button mash and it being mindless? And there is complexity and challenge, but it is stale, 2 year old content. So for that bit I agree with, that we need new content. But sadly Arena Net disbanded their dungeon team and are no longer paying any attention to dungeons.

Whenever I play Arah, AC, CoF, CoE,… I precast my utilities as a warrior/ele, and then just do my basic skill rotation. And yes, it’s in singular because most bosses die within 10 seconds.

When playing guardian, there is complexity to some extent and you do have to pay attention to other party members who get debuffs etc. but I’ve already made guardian an exception and my main prof a long time ago due to exact same reason.

Minigrump.4961:

I think it goes ele, thief, engi, guard(with unscathed contender), ranger, warrior, mesmer.

I left necro out because nobody uses necro. And I might have gotten guardian and ranger mixed around tho with their spots.

Edit: for proper groups, not pugs.

In proper groups I think it’s thief, ele, ranger, guard/warrior, engi/necro, mesmer.

Necro and engi both deal quite good spike damage with wells/grenades where as mesmer is very low on DPS and is useful for his utilities. Necro is useless for bringing 0 contribution to the team other than dps.

As far as I know, thief is currently highest DPS, being able to strike 100k damage with use of heartseeker in under 5 seconds. Ele follows up with the use of meteorite shower, lava fond and ice bows.

Ranger engages with lb2 and casts 5, then goes sword/axe, throwing axe 4 and spamming sword auto attack. This is 3rd highest dps afaik.

I love it when people go with “afaik” feelings instead of having actual evidence to backup their claims, certainly makes for interesting discussion.

klemen.8439:

oxtred.7658:

Won’t comment on this one, I was toxic enough for today. I lol’d at the fgs part, though.

Try the Noob guild, they help people inexperienced in dungeons.

Maybe read before judging people’s experience I’ve been playing this game for 2 years using meta, even doing hardcore dungeon speedclears but I am sick and tired of doing the same thing in same content for 2 years straight.

I think you’ll find he did. Or ox is very good at estimating players skill with very little information. Either way, ox is correct, you should go away, and learn the meta, before sprouting about it. See further up about the 29 page thread i linked? Take your own advice, and go read it before making claims.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

klemen.8439:

oxtred.7658:

Won’t comment on this one, I was toxic enough for today. I lol’d at the fgs part, though.

Try the Noob guild, they help people inexperienced in dungeons.

Maybe read before judging people’s experience I’ve been playing this game for 2 years using meta, even doing hardcore dungeon speedclears but I am sick and tired of doing the same thing in same content for 2 years straight.

I think you’ll find he did. Or ox is very good at estimating players skill with very little information. Either way, ox is correct, you should go away, and learn the meta, before sprouting about it. See further up about the 29 page thread i linked? Take your own advice, and go read it before making claims.

How is he right? I play in meta for 2 years but am tired of it. How does this make me need instructions for new players? Are you dumb?

Minigrump.4961:

i know this is highly unlikely, but it feels that all these threads about the meta needing to change are created by the same person with a lot of different accounts

I know what you mean.

I think its a result of the learning curve being quite hidden – so as to not scare new players by how much they have to learn in the game.

The problem is fairly frequently we get people like the OP, who think they are the best player in the game. Sadly they cannot see the rest of the learning curve, when many of us already traversed. Since this guy is apparently unwilling to look at the last thread about this bs, the thread should probably be deleted. Maybe even sticky that 29 page monster just so people like this can stop posting cluelessly.

klemen.8439:

To answer your question, let’s take a sample PUG meta group:
1 Guardian, 1/2 Elementalist, 2/3 Warriors – this is what I call a standard group.

… skills eles will get are self-dependent and don’t benefit the group (flash, mist form).
Skills warriors take are also self-dependent and don’t benefit the group either (berzerker stance, dolyak signet, …).

These arent “meta” utils on those classes. They are skills used by those who cannot use active defences.

Once again: you show you have no idea what you are talking about.

Stuff random pug brings =/= meta.

The majority of pugs are phiw. Which is typically very selfish, and expecting others to do the largest share of the work.

klemen.8439:

Q: Do you realize you can play any role you want? Just join parties that don’t say meta zerker speedruns!
A: I know this and I do run meta, but it’s boring, it doesn’t bring any challange and complexity and the whole concept of current meta is based on exploiting issues with current AI and other mechanics such as buffs and debuffs.

You can quote this as often as you want, but it still doesnt make sense. The question is “why do you play meta when its boring” and your answer is “I play meta and it’s boring”.