Guild Wars 2

wauwi.9162:

It’s just that there’s ZERO reason to do anything else, but go full zerk and melee weapons with power builds in PvE, up to the point, where some professions can’t even find already rare groups to run dungeons with.

Don’t you guys ever get tired of using this argument? Earlier today, I started a group on CoE, advertised as “P1 | Everyone welcome”. I left the PC to grab a glass of water, and by the time I had returned, it was already full (their performance was so horrid that they made me look like a complete pro, but that’s a different topic altogether).

So, I wonder, do you actually try gathering people before using this as an excuse, or are my groups just that attractive?

Zerker people are just more charismatic so when we make everyone welcome parties they fill faster, duh.

To my experience starting as the ‘right’ class helps a lot with that ><

Windsagio.1340:

The main reason, I’ve usually felt, is that people are aggressive and nasty about pushing min/max attitudes and are severely exclusionary.

It’s not necessarily rational, but nobody likes being excluded, and double nobody likes being insulted (being called bad, foolish, etc) for not playing to some Type-A personality’s version of the game.

The problem is that if the entire team is not outfitted for maximum damage, it greatly reduces the group’s success chances as a whole. Max damage only works as long as your active defense (aegis, blind, stun, etc…) hold out. Once those run out, you start to die, which is why stuff needs to die quick.

Since one dead-weight player can bring the whole group down, people are strict on requiring zerker gear.

EcoRI.9273:

Wasn’t that the very same excuse white supremacist store owners used against black people when they refuse to service them?

Pretty much, but there’s a BIG difference: people cannot situationally chose their skin color, gender, religion (if they really have one), …
The “only meta zerker” case goes more in the line of not being allowed in some establishment while wearing a tracksuit.

EcoRI.9273:

Wasn’t that the very same excuse white supremacist store owners used against black people when they refuse to service them?

How about don’t turn up dressed in a clown suit when attending a funeral that you weren’t even invited to.

OH and then getting mad and angry and making a scene when asked to leave.

No one mentioning that there’s a teeny weeny difference between a subdued but fierce war that lasted hundreds of years (will it ever end, really) and a stupid lfg tool in a stupid videogame? Nuh? Just me? Kay.
Right, I forgot, it’s the thought that counts. Who’s the idiot that spread this “wisdom”, I wonder…

There’s also a difference between being an elitist and being a kittenhole :)

comparing an in-game lfg tool to racial segregation

el oh el

This is why we cant have nice things

Strill.2591:

The problem is that if the entire team is not outfitted for maximum damage, it greatly reduces the group’s success chances as a whole. Max damage only works as long as your active defense (aegis, blind, stun, etc…) hold out. Once those run out, you start to die, which is why stuff needs to die quick.

Since one dead-weight player can bring the whole group down, people are strict on requiring zerker gear.

Not true at all.

1) If the team is not outfitted for max damage, it greatly reduce the group completion speed. But there is NOO way it will decrease the success chance. They will finish it without problem if they know a little bit the content. The old meta wasn’t full dps and was still view as the best approach back then, when we started the game nobody was full damage and now a good amount of ppl still like to play not full damage and they all success without problem. It’s all about speed, not success.

2) Good zerker player can solo almost every single dungeon/fractal (with some few exception). If you die because one person isn’t full damage, it’s because you are a bad player with full damage build that’s it.

insanemaniac.2456:

because filthy casuals dont wanna learn the tells of about 200 unique bosses and would rather survive by sacrificing damage than memorizing when to dodge

and there are oh so many filthy casuals

The only thing filthy here is your language. Casuals are the prime market of the MMORPG genre.. The only reason why you can run full zerker is because everyone skips everything and abuses high ground and stealth to take off agro from mobs.

Because of this, dungeons are the worst part of the game.

Chipster.6713:

insanemaniac.2456:

because filthy casuals dont wanna learn the tells of about 200 unique bosses and would rather survive by sacrificing damage than memorizing when to dodge

and there are oh so many filthy casuals

The only thing filthy here is your language. Casuals are the prime market of the MMORPG genre.. The only reason why you can run full zerker is because everyone skips everything and abuses high ground and stealth to take off agro from mobs.

Because of this, dungeons are the worst part of the game.

I wouldn’t boast about being the prime market of the MMORPG genre, a.k.a. — nevermind. Have it your way. I s’pose we’ll just keep “exploiting” and abusing.. high ground… erm? Okay…

Chipster.6713:

The only reason why you can run full zerker is because everyone skips everything and abuses high ground and stealth to take off agro from mobs.

Because of this, dungeons are the worst part of the game.

You can kill the trash in zerker. You can also skip without stealth in zerker. You’re missing an important piece of the puzzle here sherlock.

Chipster.6713:

insanemaniac.2456:

because filthy casuals dont wanna learn the tells of about 200 unique bosses and would rather survive by sacrificing damage than memorizing when to dodge

and there are oh so many filthy casuals

The only thing filthy here is your language. Casuals are the prime market of the MMORPG genre.. The only reason why you can run full zerker is because everyone skips everything and abuses high ground and stealth to take off agro from mobs.

Because of this, dungeons are the worst part of the game.

You do realize you can run full zerker and clear everything right?

Chipster.6713:

insanemaniac.2456:

because filthy casuals dont wanna learn the tells of about 200 unique bosses and would rather survive by sacrificing damage than memorizing when to dodge

and there are oh so many filthy casuals

The only thing filthy here is your language. Casuals are the prime market of the MMORPG genre.. The only reason why you can run full zerker is because everyone skips everything and abuses high ground and stealth to take off agro from mobs.

Because of this, dungeons are the worst part of the game.

Skipping is part of a design. Stealth is a skill that you can use. Mob leash range is a thing in every mmo. You can kill everything in the dungeon in any gear.

Chipster.6713:

The only thing filthy here is your language. Casuals are the prime market of the MMORPG genre.. The only reason why you can run full zerker is because everyone skips everything and abuses high ground and stealth to take off agro from mobs.

Because of this, dungeons are the worst part of the game.

This is like saying “Mesmers are abusing FB and iWarden to reflect projectiles” or “Eles abusing firefields for might stacking”.

And think about why “Trash mobs” are being called “Trash”, because they die slowly with ZERO reward.
Champ dies fast? A exp’ed group will kill it for the bag. Mobs drop decent loot? Then it’s not trash and will be killed. (fractal dredges, for example)

I’m a filthy casual, btw. A very filthy zerker casual, who took a break until PvE, especially dungeons, are getting a little bit more attention from the devs.
I really envy any PHIW…they’re still so innocent.

Unless they’re thiefs who pop their SB out during Lupi p3, while everyone else is meleeing. I don’t mind PHIWs in my party as long as they don’t walk left, when the group decided to go right.

There is the use of PHIW as a perjorative, of course.

Windsagio.1340:

There is the use of PHIW as a perjorative, of course.

Yeah, they’re kind of the exact opposite, of what’s know as the “elitist”.

How would you call an awfully geared player, who’s still knowledgable in the ways of the dungeon runner?

wauwi.9162:

Windsagio.1340:

There is the use of PHIW as a perjorative, of course.

Yeah, they’re kind of the exact opposite, of what’s know as the “elitist”.

How would you call an awfully geared player, who’s still knowledgable in the ways of the dungeon runner?

Why is someone playing how they want bad?

My playstyle or your playstyle isn’t some kind of moral absolute.

wauwi.9162:

Windsagio.1340:

There is the use of PHIW as a perjorative, of course.

Yeah, they’re kind of the exact opposite, of what’s know as the “elitist”.

How would you call an awfully geared player, who’s still knowledgable in the ways of the dungeon runner?

how about “players with suboptimal builds”?

people whine about being branded as elitists but then throw around this “PHIW” as if it’s okay for them to do it back.

Let’s think of a sentence where this could work:

1. “I’m sick of having to deal with PHYW’s getting in to my zerker only groups”

2. “I’m sick of having to deal with players bringing suboptimal builds in to my zerker only groups”

the dungeon community is branded as elitists because of the misconceptions of the majority and the actions of the few condemning this majority to being negatively labeled. why, seemingly confirm their perception by referring to lesser skilled players as “PHYW”, giving an enormous aura of supremacy to their post(s)? what do you gain out of it besides venting your frustrations?

I don’t think enough people care about how they’re perceived. being in the guild I’m in taught me that both actions and words are important, and there’s no point trying to claim you’re not something and then doing pretty much anything in your power to basically confirm to everyone else that you are what you claim you aren’t.

wauwi.9162:

Windsagio.1340:

There is the use of PHIW as a perjorative, of course.

Yeah, they’re kind of the exact opposite, of what’s know as the “elitist”.

How would you call an awfully geared player, who’s still knowledgable in the ways of the dungeon runner?

Balthasar M

I always figured the term came from the guardians who would refuse to slot Wall of Reflection “because it’s not in my build” using the “play how you want” phrase to excuse themselves from working to benefit their team as a whole.

So that’s what was always in my head when using or reading that term, it was already in use by the time I started playing here.

A guy who literally “plays how he wants”, fine and I’d never call them a PHIW, a guy who joins a zerk group not bringing banners on the warrior and running a PVT shoutheal build… PHIW. /shrug To me just as bad as the guys who kick because you’re using D/F Ele instead of Staff or silly tryhard elitist stuff like that.

That’s why i asked for a less negative term. (I suppose my previous post could be misconcepted as being a rethorical question)

I felt bad of throwing the term “PHIW” around, for players who just have an unoptimal set of armor, but are cooperative, supportive and most importantly, got a brain and knowledge of the game.

I just call ’em “Fluffs” from now on.
That sounds cute. I like cute things.

It’s less word imo it’s tone.

“PHIW” is fine and descriptive, but you start using it as if it’s an insult we have the problem.

(Not that I’m super qualified to be the arbiter of taste)

I would imagine everyone would agree that each player in the game should “play how they want”, however the PHIW mantra evolved from simply being “I like to play this way” to “you must accomodate me in your group whilst I PHIW” and “I want to PHIW and it must also be the most optimal way as well”.

There is a difference between players who “play how they want” and the PHIW!!! crowd.

Subsequently the term “PHIW” has evolved over the months to become a negative term.

Regardless, no, it doesn’t ever really help chucking terms like that around in threads like this (although i’ll readily admit as someone often guilty of doing as such, it is hard to resist the temptation).

Exactly, I guess we could just swap it out to selfish pricks instead of PHIW. I’ve never meant to aim that term at say a Spiritweapon condi guard who joined an anything goes run, just when they join a “zerk exp” run.

Windsagio.1340:

It’s less word imo it’s tone.

“PHIW” is fine and descriptive, but you start using it as if it’s an insult we have the problem.

(Not that I’m super qualified to be the arbiter of taste)

It sorta goes back to the classic “two tolerances” argument.

People can tolerate something much more easily when it isn’t part of their life. When it forces it’s way into their life, “tolerance” becomes much more difficult. Tolerating the concept of the existence of something you don’t like is just a lot easier than tolerating the existence of something you don’t like as part of your life.

To bring it around to the conversation here, almost all of us are fine with the existence of anything-goes, no-stacking, no-skipping, anti-meta people doing their thing amongst themselves. Most of us have a much harder time tolerating people who 1. want to force us to include them in our meta groups (pretty rare actually) or 2. people who want to force anet to change the game in order to make whatever their playstyle is into the acceptable meta (much more common).

“PHYW” is a term ANet used ages ago to refer to the fact when hyping GW2 that you could do any kind of content and be rewarded for it. Forumers took it out of context to say that they could do whatever they want and be accepted in to dungeons/fractals/world boss instances/etc and that it wasn’t fair if things were not to be like that.

I think that’s the funny thing. Everybody feels forced to some degree.

People don’t like to feel they’re forced to play ‘meta’ (they’re not actually being forced, but again perception).

‘Meta’ people don’t like the idea of people forcing changes on them (and reasonably).

With thought (and maybe this is obvious), that’s probably the key to the whole thing. Anti-meta ‘PHIW’ people feel that the current environment forces them to play ’zerk.

Because players aren’t game designers, they come up with all kinds of gameplay solutions to a problem that’s basically social.

Edit: That came out harsher than I meant.

Only time you are forced into zerker is maybe for triple trouble worms, since you basically have a 2 minute limit to kill them. Why they would do that is beyond me, but other than that play with likeminded people, and all will be great.

Gyler.8150:

Only time you are forced into zerker is maybe for triple trouble worms, since you basically have a 2 minute limit to kill them. Why they would do that is beyond me, but other than that play with likeminded people, and all will be great.

the 2 minute timer is there so people cant slack. the problem is the 2 min window is still too much. it should be reduced to 1 min or even less.

imagine it without a timer, every scrub would be wearing nomads and go afk.

iirc I coined the acronym PHIW Atleast I dont recall seeing it on these forums till i posted it.

Ofcoures this could be the delusions of grandeur my shrink keeps telling me about

Windsagio.1340:

Because players aren’t game designers, they come up with all kinds of gameplay solutions to a problem that’s basically social.

Edit: That came out harsher than I meant.

I think there’s a bit more to it. :/

I don’t go full DPS zerker, because a guide or players told me to.
I do it, because the game gives me no motivation to try out something else in dungeons.

Conditions? Boon duration? Going beastmaster on my ranger?
Why should i, if all of that would have no effect in dungeons, but lower my damage.

The solution for that would be so simple. It would even give ’ye olde dungeons, everyone seen a million times a breath of fresh air (i have suggested that a couple of times already, but it really is so simple):

“Mistformed Dungeons” (Lore to that: oh noez, the enemy has unleashed another plot device to call strange powers of the mist upon this place, yaddayaddayadda."):

• Enemy-encounters change in regular intervals of, idk, 24H, giving them new resistances and weaknesses everday.

• Normal dungeons remain.

• “Mistformed Dungeons” (really gotta think about a better name, tho) give better or different rewards.

“Dungeon Modifications” would be displayed on the entrance/portal, allowing to LF a healthy mixture of builds or an optimal mix of different professions and builds for experienced players.

This would include “Modifications”, such as “Enemies resistant to crits, highly suspectible to fire, poison and bleed” or “Strange powers from the mist preventing boons, 50% chance to daze enemies with combofinishers” or why not “+100% Number of enemies, enemies deal 50% more damage, enemies have 80% less health, some enemies may create AoE barriers, preventing any attempt to flee, confusion does 100% more damage.”

BTW, ^poor examples^.

But yeah, anything goes, sky’s the limit. Weeeeeeeh~

And the best thing is, zerkers can zerk efficiently normal dungeons and “experimantal mad scientists” can madly experiment with their builds in random-dungeons as well.

Your welcome, dungeon community. (k, that was way~ too smug)

@wauwi

you’re*

Personally I love min maxing in any other game. But I hate it in GW2. Ideally, I would prefer to run my own build, where I combine offense with a bit of defense. But in GW2 you need to maximize your damage, and I hate it.

I hate it when I do AC with random players, only to find out that we are not doing enough collective power as a group to destroy the burrows in time. Either they have too little offense in their build, or their survivability is so poor, that they are eating dirt in mere seconds. I don’t even think it’s a case of them being bad players. They just happen to have a build that does not maximize damage enough for them to finish the dungeon.

There’s something incredibly boring about tweaking your character to only maximize the damage output. Especially when the combat system is already pretty shallow, and the build variety is equally poor.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Personally I love min maxing in any other game. But I hate it in GW2. Ideally, I would prefer to run my own build, where I combine offense with a bit of defense. But in GW2 you need to maximize your damage, and I hate it.

You done have to do anything. There is no instance that cannot be beaten by 5 nomads necros.

I hate it when I do AC with random players, only to find out that we are not doing enough collective power as a group to destroy the burrows in time. Either they have too little offense in their build, or their survivability is so poor, that they are eating dirt in mere seconds. I don’t even think it’s a case of them being bad players. They just happen to have a build that does not maximize damage enough for them to finish the dungeon.

I don’t believe that is true at all. I just think the story is remarkably fake. If they are level 80 and have Power anywhere in their stat set they can auto attack and kill everything in AC no problems. This sounds like a made up story to me.

There’s something incredibly boring about tweaking your character to only maximize the damage output. Especially when the combat system is already pretty shallow, and the build variety is equally poor.

No one does that though. Every “meta” build is a support build that sacrifices personal DPS for team utility. The combat system isn’t shallow, but some of the encounters are. And lastly, there is as much build variety in the meta as there was in GW1.

MQM, this has all been explained to you hundreds of times over the past few years but you refuse to listen and continue to repeat the same canards. Let’s not forget the “shallow combat system” you decry you have in the past advocated replacing with colored lights over bosses heads that tell you when to dodge. So I take your “combat system” analysis with a grain of salt.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Personally I love min maxing in any other game. But I hate it in GW2. Ideally, I would prefer to run my own build, where I combine offense with a bit of defense. But in GW2 you need to maximize your damage, and I hate it.

I hate it when I do AC with random players, only to find out that we are not doing enough collective power as a group to destroy the burrows in time. Either they have too little offense in their build, or their survivability is so poor, that they are eating dirt in mere seconds. I don’t even think it’s a case of them being bad players. They just happen to have a build that does not maximize damage enough for them to finish the dungeon.

There’s something incredibly boring about tweaking your character to only maximize the damage output. Especially when the combat system is already pretty shallow, and the build variety is equally poor.

AC burrows are doable with a full uplevel group. It doesn’t require any (significant) dps thresold, and if it did, burrows can’t be crit, meaning a berserker geared character does the same damage than a soldier geared character, not counting the small dps gain of oils for the soldier’s. The meta is about maximising party support without loosing dps. People claiming the meta is only about dps either don’t play the game or believe phalanx warrior and guardians are used for their incredible damage output. There’s build variety as well, and efficient runners swap build for every encounter. But you decided to ignore that.

oxtred.7658:

@wauwi

you’re*

I’m pretty sure, that i left way more typos in my insomnia-driven post.

Finders keepers.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I hate it when I do AC with random players, only to find out that we are not doing enough collective power as a group to destroy the burrows in time. Either they have too little offense in their build, or their survivability is so poor, that they are eating dirt in mere seconds. I don’t even think it’s a case of them being bad players. They just happen to have a build that does not maximize damage enough for them to finish the dungeon.

I can’t imagine many reasons to fail AC burrow events without it being clearly players’ fault.
Precision is useless, Critical Damage is useless, some damage modifiers triggered by conditions are useless … it’s all about raw power (and might stacks), some damage modifiers and, above everything else, a GOOD WEAPON CHOICE.

A player running, lets say, a condition necromancer with no more than a basic 926 power score, can easily retrait before the event starts and get an over 50% damage boosts. It might be annoying (specially without a build saving tool), but it’s definitely doable and unrelated to gear choices.
The weapon choice is, however, the most relevant factor. Using a scepter to destroy burrows doesn’t make any sense; a dagger (probably used as an offhand weapon in the default build) would be a much more suitable weapon.

I admit that players running low power builds could be unprepared for a situation where group damage is clearly lacking.
New players that have not played the dungeon before could easily be caught off guard too.
There’s no excuse, however, for any of this to happen a second time.

If the group can just combine 7500 effective power (lvl80 score), which is an average of only 1500 per player (something that pretty much everyone can achieve with a trait / utility reallocation), and everybody uses a decent weapon, burrows shouldn’t be a problem at all.

NikeEU.7690:

I don’t believe that is true at all. I just think the story is remarkably fake. If they are level 80 and have Power anywhere in their stat set they can auto attack and kill everything in AC no problems. This sounds like a made up story to me.

You have got to be kidding me. This has happened to me countless times, and I can’t be alone. Why is it that whenever someone brings up a story from their own experience, and others disagree with it, they immediately yell out that it’s a made up story?

Seriously.

Quite often when I join any PUG, I’m usually the last one standing when it comes to those darn burrows. People either lack DPS, or lack survivability. Either way, the pug wipes, and I can’t clear them by myself. Then with much nagging, and with sometimes some stubborn player who refuses to change his build rage quiting, we finally manage to get one of the eles to bring frostbow, and then we finally pull it off.

NikeEU.7690:

The combat system isn’t shallow, but some of the encounters are. And lastly, there is as much build variety in the meta as there was in GW1.

No there is not! And stop saying that, you have no idea what you are talking about. You are embarrassing yourself. I need only look at my GINORMOUS list of necromancer builds for GW1, and see how HUGE the difference in build variety is. See the picture below.

There was SO much more to combat in GW1, than there is to the current combat in GW2. There was aggro control, disenchanting, buffing, protection, interrupts, hexing, damage, bodyblocking, kiting, use of height difference, energy denial, conditions. And all of those mechanics had a purpose in PVE and PVP.

GW2 is mostly just DPS and dodge rolling. There is very little aggro control to speak of. Interrupting is mostly rendered useless by defiant. The PVE game is almost build against the use of conditions in many ways. Height use is not allowed (enemies go invulnerable). Kiting is not allowed, because enemies are on tight leashes. Disenchantment has very little purpose, especially in PVE. There is no inter-class dependence, or any clear roles to speak of. And very little strategy, if any at all. Monsters don’t even have builds in GW2!

Yes, the combat is shallow! Certainly if you compare it with GW1.

Also, in GW1 you would change your build completely for each mission! Some missions would be made much easier with minions (because they had lots of bodies). Other missions (such as UW) lacked bodies, and Spiteful Spirit was king. I would also adapt my protective and support skills depending on the mission. If I was doing a mission with lots of Wurms, I would bring hex removal to get rid of Wurm Bile. If I were doing The Deep, I would switch to a 1hp necro and bring Blood is Power.

That does not happen in GW2. And shame on you for even thinking that there is the same build variety. There objectively is not.

NikeEU.7690:

Let’s not forget the “shallow combat system” you decry you have in the past advocated replacing with colored lights over bosses heads that tell you when to dodge. So I take your “combat system” analysis with a grain of salt.

Way to take that completely out of context.

Let me put that in context again:

I said that the tells on enemies in GW2 were very poor, and especially hard to see considering how dense all the particle effect spam is in the game. I compared this with a game like God of War, in which all enemies have very clear windup times and tells.

People like you then made of fun of that criticism, yelling out that I wanted bright signal lights on the bosses. Because apparently it is heresy in the church of GW2 to criticize the visibility and/or the graphics.

This is of course completely irrelevant to my point about the shallow combat system, but I guess you have to drag in unrelated points to kind of avoid having to actually defend your position.

Vargamonth.2047:

If the group can just combine 7500 effective power (lvl80 score), which is an average of only 1500 per player (something that pretty much everyone can achieve with a trait / utility reallocation), and everybody uses a decent weapon, burrows shouldn’t be a problem at all.

And yet they often are. I have seen it happen countless times. And look, I can’t examine the skill bars of these other party members and see what they are running. And I don’t want to be the person to tell others what weapons to bring, and what gear to wear. But I hate it when it is simply a lack of maxed out damage that is causing a pug to wipe.

I also hate it when Tequatl simply flies off because 80+ people weren’t doing enough damage together to kill him in time. I don’t think the people causing the lack of DPS are bad players, but I hate that it is even a factor at all. I hate this sort of min-maxing.

Tweaking a character is fun, but failing a mission because the party lacks enough DPS just sucks the fun right out of it.

I use full zerker gear myself so I guess that makes me a min-maxer but I try to stay away from the groups that stack every dungeon/fractal. For me farming content like this is extremely boring. I’m not playing this game to watch my gold count go up… Besides, after getting a full exotic set and runes the progression starts to become almost purely cosmetic anyway. My solution to the problem is that join a guild that enjoys doing the content in a similar fashion than yourself and put some time and effort in the LFG descriptions so you don’t get a mixed group of optimal farmers and fungeoneers.

As far as I can tell based on threads as this one, we have two separate groups (meta and anti-meta) both feeling discriminated by each others.

Over the years, we’ve heard all sorts of arguments for and against the others and honestly I don’t think it’s worth going over them again and again as this is simply turning in circles. Personally, I think the focus should be on how these two groups can co-exists without negatively affecting each others.

There are two posts in this thread I liked a lot, so I’ll quote them here again with a short personal comment:

Thaddeus.4891:

But finally you have toxic people on both side. PHIW that create anti-zerk/meta subject every single day and hate on it like it’s something that broke the game and should be ban. Zerk meta that are look down and think they are better than everyone, talking about dps all the time and view any non meta build as pure garbage.

Nobody group is more or less at fault than the other here. Just more or less toxic people on both sides that kind of ruin it for everybody.

I completely agree with this. The hate comes with those attitudes, not because of the actual game-play.

maha.7902:

the dungeon community is branded as elitists because of the misconceptions of the majority and the actions of the few condemning this majority to being negatively labeled. why, seemingly confirm their perception by referring to lesser skilled players as “PHYW”, giving an enormous aura of supremacy to their post(s)? what do you gain out of it besides venting your frustrations?

This is also my experience. Dungeon and Fractal content has remained stale over the years. Obviously, there are veteran players with a lot of routine. Having run the same content hundreds of times, it’s easy to forget the initial learning curve. Players who are still at this stage are not bad, they are simply less experienced.

To conclude, I believe the focus should be how these two groups can co-exist without affecting each others negatively. We have the lfg-tool, we have guilds, friendlists, and so on. Surely it must be possible to form groups with like-minded players and not get upset over when others do things differently? The best advise I can give based on my daily PUG-ing experiences is to carefully read the lfg-message before joining somewhere. With that, a lot of drama can potentially be avoided.

Ya know..i wonder how many of these threads would not happen if people respected each other and the LFG messages… Im not an elitest..but if i put up “AC P1, Know the path” i expect people to know the path…but i always seem to get people who dont…

Dante.1763:

Ya know..i wonder how many of these threads would not happen if people respected each other and the LFG messages…

This is true.

FenrirSlakt.3692:

Dante.1763:

Ya know..i wonder how many of these threads would not happen if people respected each other and the LFG messages…

This is true.

Its very true, and im not just saying that because im the one who said it. Each of these threads share the same element, no matter whos posting it. If the casual players(Sorry stealing terms) Dont want to have to deal with being called baddies or whatever then they need to create their own groups and not join the ones who want experienced players etc. Same with the other side, they shouldnt join groups that say “Anyone welcome” And try and take it over, which i have seen, and have had happen when i am up for teaching AC paths.

Edit: It really comes down to respect, and that seems to be lacking, BADLY among players anymore, in my opinion of course.

The thing is, there are rude, irrational players on both sides, that instead of creating their own groups, will join others’ and attempt to force them to play their way, either directly, by scoffing at their groupmates’ builds or indirectly, by joining a group whose standards they do not meet and hoping not to get caught.

These kind of people act the way they do, because they perceive their needs to be above of others’. Human nature is disgusting.

FenrirSlakt.3692:

The thing is, there are rude, irrational players on both sides, that instead of creating their own groups, will join others’ and attempt to force them to play their way, either directly, by scoffing at their groupmates’ builds or indirectly, by joining a group whose standards they do not meet and hoping not to get caught.

Human nature is disgusting.

Yup thats why i mentioned both sides doing it in my post. Both sides are guilty of joining the other groups and trying to force themselves into the group. I dont join zerker meta groups myself because i dont like the idea. I do however join the “Experienced” groups who expect you to know how to play, and i love seeing people who have no idea join the group and then expect to be carried and start raging. And vice versa happens when i do AC casual, “Everyone welcome” Paths.

Human nature is indeed disgusting!

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

And yet they often are. I have seen it happen countless times

And yet I’ve never had issues with the burrows, and can’t remember the last time I failed then. Even the really bad group I had tonight pulled them off on the first to, albeit with some struggling.