Guild Wars 2

Tree.3916:

Most people who think the axe warrior build is boring probably haven’t played it. Doing the proper rotation is a bit more challenging than the gs+axe build and it’s significantly more active, especially the EA build that Eviscerates as part of the rotation.

I feel like I’m surrounded by crybaby carebear casuals. “waaaa I wanna use my twilight waaaaa I don’t care if its 10% less dps” is no different than “waaaa I like my celestial gear because I play how I want.”

Its not 10% less dps in most groups. Its actually higher dps in the average group. Only time pure axe is better is when your group is always capping might. Which doesnt happen in fractals and for many casual dungeon runs (depends on class composition). EA is pointless in a group which doesnt utilize buffs properly.

Besides builds that are advertised for the public should be tailored to more relaxed groups or dps pugs. For obvious reasons. The top guilds dont need to be told what is optimal in record runs as they should be working that out for themselves.

I think the biggest thing to consider is that scaling changed to account for the lack of traits at lower levels. This means that all mobs have less HP, hurt less, and the whole nine yards. In lieu of this, I’ve seen everything in any dungeon not L80 die much, much faster than before. However, I do definitely notice the difference slightly in Fractals, Arah, etc.

Any Staff ele here? with double sigil things seemed actually lil stronger, but then i only do AC with it.
Mesmer and GS War still sulking in the corner.

Its not even just about dps. Not having a gs means you have less evades. Pug groups arent full of top end players. Most of them need the versatility of more flexible builds. 6/5/0/0/3 is still the most versatile and pug friendly build. And its still a meta build.

Anyway look at it from this perspective. Most players who watch these guides follow them blindly. Which would you rather have them run in a pug? Something that is only useful and effective in a fully organized group or something that works very well in all groups but loses a small percentage of efficiency in a fully optimized group? Its pretty clear to me which I would prefer. Id rather not have pug eles running 5/2/2/5/0 in my pug groups. They would be much better off and help the group a lot more by running 6/6/2/0/0.

I dont even pug but its obvious that the recommended builds for the public should be the more versatile versions of the meta builds. You can still include all the info about the absolute best dps options but it should be pointed out that these often wont be as effective in pugs. Some people cant work that out for themselves so you need to tell it to them straight.

not real nerf, the damage that was “lost” due to ferocity changes easily replaced by second sigil and better runes.

Anierna.6918:

How can you even call yourself an elite guild when you don’t min/max by default?

Because max. dps setups are usually extremely subpar in “real” dungeon runs. All records that are worth to be called “record” make use of builds that you would facepalm away on damage calculations.

Anierna.6918:

I’ve seen IX and DnT do exactly this, and I’m always puzzled. How can you even call yourself an elite guild when you don’t min/max by default?

I can’t speak for cold snap, but for us, we don’t really care about team comp in casual runs so long as we have a viable team comp; aka one that can cap Might, cap vuln, has reflects (if needed), and can drop both banners. Any further optimization is unnecessary when not pushing times.

P.S. I know you’re an abrasive and you enjoy that persona, but the way you phrased what you said comes off a lot like saying your guild is more elite than pretty much every other dungeon guild on NA or EU. You’re not.

Dub.1273:

Anierna.6918:

How can you even call yourself an elite guild when you don’t min/max by default?

Because max. dps setups are usually extremely subpar in “real” dungeon runs. All records that are worth to be called “record” make use of builds that you would facepalm away on damage calculations.

Not true. We do most of our dungeons with the same group comps and builds that we use for our speed-runs.

As an example, our SE p1 record (now beaten by 9 secs by [oO]), for instance, was

(Ele): 10/25/10/25/0
(Ele): 30/10/10/20/0
(Ele): 25/10/10/25/0
(Thief): 30/30/0/0/10
(Guard): 10/30/0/0/30

We use that same group comp and those same builds when we do SE on our daily tour.

Wheres the fun in that? Theres being elitist and then theres being boring.

Those builds arent even optimal for records.

We were working on a 4 Ele, 1 Engi record for SE p1 when [oO] posted thier 3:20 4 Ele, 1 Mes record and we stopped trying. The Ele builds we would have run in our 4 Ele, 1 Engi group were: 10/25/10/25, 30/10/10/20, and 2x 25/10/10/25. Those were optimal for that particular dungeon because we needed group Fury (hence the 30/10) and 25 vuln on Fiery Rush (hence the 10/25). The other 2 Ele’s could have gone 25 in Earth, but they wouldn’t have gotten the 5% modifier since applying bleeding to bosses before they died would have been a problem. And dodges were necessary as well, so endurance uptime would have been an issue.

Some people dont find it fun to min/max for every single dungeon, especially if you main something like a ranger or engineer. I personally don’t care about maximizing gold/hour and prefer more casual, relaxed runs. Elite doesn’t mean you have to min-max all the time, and I do understand there’s a time and place for that. It’s nice to at least have an environment where everyone will at the absolute minimum run berserker gear with a meta build, you can’t rely on that in PUGs.

At the end of the day it’s just a game, and If you don’t enjoy what you’re doing then what’s the point. My guildies in [IX] may have different opinions, but this in particular why I do not like min-max compositions (they usually don’t contain a ranger unless you just want to hit the highest possible numbers)

Tree.3916:

Anierna.6918:

I’ve seen IX and DnT do exactly this, and I’m always puzzled. How can you even call yourself an elite guild when you don’t min/max by default?

I can’t speak for cold snap, but for us, we don’t really care about team comp in casual runs so long as we have a viable team comp; aka one that can cap Might, cap vuln, has reflects (if needed), and can drop both banners. Any further optimization is unnecessary when not pushing times.

Hold on a sec. So you’re saying that some optimization is acceptable, in your words “one that can cap Might, cap vuln, has reflects (if needed), and can drop both banners,” but other optimization, such as optimal group comp, isn’t? Yet earlier you said:

Tree.3916:

“waaaa I wanna use my twilight waaaaa I don’t care if its 10% less dps” is no different than “waaaa I like my celestial gear because I play how I want.”

I’m gonna take your analogy a bit further and say that “waaaaaa I wanna use my Guard in AC and my Mes in TA and I don’t care if using my Ele would be better for the group” is no different from “waaa I wanna use my twilight waaaaa I don’t care if its 10% less dps” and “waaaa I like my celestial gear because I play how I want.”

That sounds a bit hypocritical to me. IMO, if you’re gonna optimize, go all the way. You can’t stop part-way and then criticize others (the “casuals”) for not optimizing enough. Because then those of us who do optimize all the way will do the same thing to you. I’m running optimal builds and group comps in every tour – I look at guilds who run wacky group comps and I think to myself “lol. Casuals.” Tell me, how is that any different from you looking at groups who run knights/cavaliers and thinking the same thing?

The funny thing is we can run those casual group comps and still finish the dungeon just as fast as your optimized groups in casual runs. If we wanted to go all out we would do a record run.

Besides theres only so many dungeons in a day and thanks to the daily rewards there is no reason to rush them. Id rather have fun and take them at a relaxed but fast pace and have something to do for the whole day. Rather than blitz all the dungeons and then be bored for the rest of the evening. :P

Do you stop for a second to chat when someone pms you?

Anytime I don’t see people click their endurance bar I think “lol. Casuals”

Anierna.6918:

Tree.3916:

Anierna.6918:

I’ve seen IX and DnT do exactly this, and I’m always puzzled. How can you even call yourself an elite guild when you don’t min/max by default?

I can’t speak for cold snap, but for us, we don’t really care about team comp in casual runs so long as we have a viable team comp; aka one that can cap Might, cap vuln, has reflects (if needed), and can drop both banners. Any further optimization is unnecessary when not pushing times.

Hold on a sec. So you’re saying that some optimization is acceptable, in your words “one that can cap Might, cap vuln, has reflects (if needed), and can drop both banners,” but other optimization, such as optimal group comp, isn’t? Yet earlier you said:

Tree.3916:

“waaaa I wanna use my twilight waaaaa I don’t care if its 10% less dps” is no different than “waaaa I like my celestial gear because I play how I want.”

I’m gonna take your analogy a bit further and say that “waaaaaa I wanna use my Guard in AC and my Mes in TA and I don’t care if using my Ele would be better for the group” is no different from “waaa I wanna use my twilight waaaaa I don’t care if its 10% less dps” and “waaaa I like my celestial gear because I play how I want.”

That sounds a bit hypocritical to me. IMO, if you’re gonna optimize, go all the way. You can’t stop part-way and then criticize others (the “casuals”) for not optimizing enough. Because then those of us who do optimize all the way will do the same thing to you. I’m running optimal builds and group comps in every tour – I look at guilds who run wacky group comps and I think to myself “lol. Casuals.” Tell me, how is that any different from you looking at groups who run knights/cavaliers and thinking the same thing?

Because if you have a viable comp that maxes vuln, caps might, has banners and EA, the remaining optimization is extremely trivial and easily made up for by superior play skill. If someone enjoys playing mesmer and we have a viable group comp I’m not going to tell them they have to change so our casual TA run can be faster.

For what its worth, when I watch groups like yours on live stream, I think a lot worse than “lol casuals.”

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Tree.3916:

For what its worth, when I watch groups like yours on live stream, I think a lot worse than “lol casuals.”

The only recorded runs of MY groups are the SE p1 and p3 record runs on YouTube. I don’t usually livestream because I would drop below 100 FPS. The livestream I know you’re referring to is not applicable and I’ve stated why here

Since you brought up livestreams, there was a particularly funny one from a well-known DnT member on thief with multiple wipes at Lupi.

maxinion.8396:

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Anierna.6918:

Tree.3916:

I feel like I’m surrounded by crybaby carebear casuals. “waaaa I wanna use my twilight waaaaa I don’t care if its 10% less dps” is no different than “waaaa I like my celestial gear because I play how I want.”

^ This. Exactly this. The meta changed, so people need to discard the old meta and learn the new.

Tree.3916:

As far as top guilds, I can’t speak for what other people do. I see a lot of top guilds with players who care to run optimal stuff, and I see a lot who YOLO with bad builds and group comps in casual runs. I don’t really know what other people need to be told because it isn’t at super apparent.

When I’m on at reset (tour time), I require every dungeon party to run proper builds and proper group comps, found here. But I totally agree with what you’re saying. Most other “top guilds” don’t always run optimal builds and group comps, and I’ve always thought to myself “wtf are they doing? Why lose DPS by bringing a Guard to AC, a Mes to TA/CoE, and multiple Wars anywhere? Just… why?” I’ve seen IX and DnT do exactly this, and I’m always puzzled. How can you even call yourself an elite guild when you don’t min/max by default on your daily dungeon tours?

Because the point of a game is fun, not optimization? just a thought.

and i’ve been wondeirng, anierna, did you play DCUO? someone had the same name and a similar personality there, just curious =)

Relax guys, no need to make digs at each others’ guilds over a petty issue. A casual run is just that – casual. Why the fuss over minmaxing in what is clearly meant to be relaxing? Chill man, chill.

They’re called casual runs for a reason. They’re meant to have fun; you aren’t an elite guild just because you force your members to run record level team comps in your daily gold farm runs. That’s called being tryhards.

I don’t know about damage because I still haven’t even traited my main (too busy finding the new meta in fashion), but Imbune, you say, " It’s the self proclaimed ‘elite’ who can’t adapt (and ironically accuse the filthy casuals of being unable to adapt)"

Response:

Sure fine, 2 days after patch, some “elitists” haven’t adapted yet. But honestly, those “filthy casuals” haven’t adapted in almost 2 years. I don’t think it’s all that fair to compare the two.

Anierna.6918:

Tree.3916:

For what its worth, when I watch groups like yours on live stream, I think a lot worse than “lol casuals.”

The only recorded runs of MY groups are the SE p1 and p3 record runs on YouTube. I don’t usually livestream because I would drop below 100 FPS. The livestream I know you’re referring to is not applicable and I’ve stated why here

Since you brought up livestreams, there was a particularly funny one from a well-known DnT member on thief with multiple wipes at Lupi.

Mistakes happen all the time, no one in DnT claimed to be perfect. The only claiming to be perfect seems to be you, from what I can tell. The elitist bs might impress someone who doesn’t know better, but it doesn’t impress people who are actually in elite guilds, and all it does is alienate you from the rest of the community.

You might not care about alienating us now, but that’s a bad long term plan. Guilds comes and go, and the people you kitten off now might be the people in charge of the guild you try to be a member of in the future and people remember burnt bridges and bad attitudes.

Anierna.6918:

Tree.3916:

For what its worth, when I watch groups like yours on live stream, I think a lot worse than “lol casuals.”

The only recorded runs of MY groups are the SE p1 and p3 record runs on YouTube. I don’t usually livestream because I would drop below 100 FPS. The livestream I know you’re referring to is not applicable and I’ve stated why here

Since you brought up livestreams, there was a particularly funny one from a well-known DnT member on thief with multiple wipes at Lupi.

watch out everyone, this guy goes hard.

Excuse me while I cut the tension real quick.

Imbune.5497:

Ha…elitist crybabies. Is there anything more hypocritical and/or nonsensical?

[…]

I do find it immensely amusing that kids (<-not meant in a derogatory manner; I refuse to believe any adult would harbor such attitudes, ergo they must be kids) consider themselves ‘elite’ at something I do when I want to pass the time (…does this mean they’re elite time wasters?).

Regarding the damage nerf…meh…I see a little reduction in my own damage, but it’s not like things that I could kill before aren’t killable. Honestly it’s hardly noticeable-I’ve done AC and CoE since the patch and a good group will still get things done quickly while a less coordinated group will have difficulty. It’s the self proclaimed ‘elite’ who can’t adapt (and ironically accuse the filthy casuals of being unable to adapt) are the ones crying blood that dungeons are unplayable with anything other than full zerkers now and talking about roll backs and such overly dramatic notions.

Took the liberty to slightly edit the quote eliminating the unecessary part though I usually avoid partial quotes.

Anyway: I couldn’t help but askmyself (and now you), have you ever done competitive sports, chess or something similar as a hobby?
Would you call the better teams/players in those spare time activities crybabies as well when they described themselves as the elite in their particualr league for example? Or as “kids” because no sensible “adult” would use such a term?
If so, then anything I could try to do to offer you a different point of view is a waste of both of our times and you can stop reading here.
But basically, video games are no different from those activities. A little less established among the so called conservative people maybe, or frowned upon by people less willing to admit that video games are an exercise in reflexes, hand eye coordination and pattern recognition.
But basically that’s what they are. And there will be better players, worse players, really good players and horrible players among those as well.

Still it is a hobby and some people will try to do their best at it and some will be the best. Or elite, which simply is a choice of words in that matter.

As far as adaption goes: The aforementioned “new warrior meta” is a good example I think that the elite is very much able to adapt. And to do so fast. How long did it take for the new meta to be created? Less than half a week?
If that isn’t fast adaption, I don’t know what is.

As for being unable to do dungeons with anything but full zerker. I can’t see anyone saying that. What I saw was some people saying that going full zerker becomes even more important, if you want to do them quickly.
And note: I’m saying quickly, I’m not even talking about record runs or actual speedruns.
And completing a dungeon quickly is what 90% of the people I encounter want these days. Because a large portion of players has gone from wide eyed exploration to farming for gold/tokens/whatever.
But I’m starting to digress, so I’ll cut corners here.

Edit: Worst of the typos.

Tit for tat.

Genius.

What is going on in this thread? I leave GW2 for a few months and suddenly there’s an outbreak of rabies.

Chill bros. Let’s have some nachos and get back on topic.

Another day and I still haven’t seen any significant change or nerf in the game. I wonder what was the point of this change or what was it supposed to do? If it was meant to make zerkers less useful and create build diversity it failed miserably. Zerker is still by far the best and most optimal setup and other stats still have no point. Seems like a whole lot of time spent on nothing.

Anierna.6918:

Since you brought up livestreams, there was a particularly funny one from a well-known DnT member on thief with multiple wipes at Lupi.

I’d somehow like to see a direct skill, experience and tryhard’ability between the top players of each guild.

Dub.1273:

Anierna.6918:

Since you brought up livestreams, there was a particularly funny one from a well-known DnT member on thief with multiple wipes at Lupi.

I’d somehow like to see a direct skill, experience and tryhard’ability between the top players of each guild.

Wait until a new dungeon is released :^)

Based on how long it took in gw1, that’s going to be in four years.

Anierna.6918:

I’ve seen IX and DnT do exactly this, and I’m always puzzled. How can you even call yourself an elite guild when you don’t min/max by default on your daily dungeon tours?

So, a guild whose main requirement (for recruitment) is being able to press 4 and 3 on walls is calling out others on their überl33tn3ss?

So yes, felt like solo’ing Caudecus Manor and I was ashamed by the difficulty.

Dungeon were already easy for coordinated group but this is ridiculous, the whole path took me 14 minutes, every boss were melting, once again I was solo’ing. And when boss’es took a shot at me (DPS meta build Guard) I was hardly loosing health.

I know this is mostly for the new trait system but how do you want people to get control of their characters if they don’t even have to dodge because the damage are too low. Or why would try to min-max when everything is melting even for a PVT or Cleric group.

I felt the change when I did a tour with my group but I felt it ALOT more after doing some solo in lower level dungeon.

Yes, I felt the nerf…in Wvw. RIP

People actually watch GW2 PvE streams?

I’d much rather watch something like League of Legends on Twitch, which is miles more entertaining.

TheKillerAngel.3596:

People actually watch GW2 PvE streams?

I’d much rather watch something like League of Legends on Twitch, which is miles more entertaining.

Some people like watching dungeon guilds do their daily dungeon train, yes – because it allows them to see what high level tactics there are for instances plus hearing the voice comms normally means hearing funny banter.

Since you brought up livestreams, there was a particularly funny one from a well-known DnT member on thief with multiple wipes at Lupi.

Because all guild runs are meant to be flawless I suppose. Everyone is just robots who can’t make any sort of mistake. The fact of the matter is – we’re able to stream our casual runs because the skill level of our average player is high enough that Nike can get a group together of basically anyone in the guild, do a tour and it goes pretty smooth – I however don’t see any DD streams anywhere which suggests either a lack of interest in doing so (which is strange since I can imagine you want your guild to get some interest by the community) or that you’re not comfortable enough with your membership to be able to perform tours without there being a bunch of (gtfo censor) awkward wipes.

Nuu…

Because we’re doing ERP which are too embarrassing to show others :x

“Mmmmh, I want moar!”

Well, sort of but it also feels like the ferocity scaling has worked to my (our) favor as well. The nerf doesn’t feel as crippling as I thought it would.

Of course I’ve also been much more interested in PvP than dungeons since the patch so I haven’t really gotten to mess around with it. -__-

At the risk of drawing some fire here, I’ll respond a bit to some of this mess. So no, of course not every run is perfect! In fact, most of the runs are not perfect. People make mistakes! Most of the time they are small ones and sometimes they are big ones.

I don’t think it’s really a huge deal though. I play to have a good time, even if it means running something wonky for some laughs. I am confident in my abilities and the groups I play with. So, the guild as an organization is centered around the ‘efficiency’ model. Individuals always differ though. Some groups are more heavily min/maxed while others are not. It just depends on who’s playing, who’s running, and what that particular group wants to accomplish.

I’d bet that this is the case for any Guild though. This community is already in the minority of this game. We would do well to not take shots at each other. I know I’d appreciate that. There are players here that I’ve got respect for and it is a shame to be put at odds over such small potato arguments.

Saint.5647:

Excuse me while I cut the tension real quick.

http://imgur.com/gallery/HfH8h

Sera.6539:

Saint.5647:

Excuse me while I cut the tension real quick.

http://imgur.com/gallery/HfH8h

Hahaha

Such a great ep.

Dub.1273:

“Mmmmh, I want moar!”

That is why, my friends, Dub is not invited!

Didn’t feel it in CoE or CoF. I think I did one Arah p3 and didn’t feel a dip either. Then again, I really don’t time how long it takes to do dungeons. Sadly my guild which was PvX split sometime ago so now I just do pug groups for the majority of my runs. Pretty casual now and even accepted 2 rangers in a CoF p2 run (which was a mistake, because both just hid on the higher platforms with longbow bears).

I will now be doing CM and ACp2 on a daily basis though, so that’s good.

Also, do anyone know how people do the HotW troll fight now? I just came back and didn’t want to lfg an entire group for a run I’m not familiar with after the update.

Syn.8617:

Vote with your wallet…

Good idea! I really loved the Feature Pack

Hurrhurr

Tree.3916:

Most people who think the axe warrior build is boring probably haven’t played it. Doing the proper rotation is a bit more challenging than the gs+axe build and it’s significantly more active, especially the EA build that Eviscerates as part of the rotation.

I feel like I’m surrounded by crybaby carebear casuals. “waaaa I wanna use my twilight waaaaa I don’t care if its 10% less dps” is no different than “waaaa I like my celestial gear because I play how I want.”

Well atleast there was some weapon swapping there. How do you feel about GS-camping being the best DPS option now? As boring as only-axe in my opinion.

Quickfoot Katana.8642:

Tree.3916:

Most people who think the axe warrior build is boring probably haven’t played it. Doing the proper rotation is a bit more challenging than the gs+axe build and it’s significantly more active, especially the EA build that Eviscerates as part of the rotation.

I feel like I’m surrounded by crybaby carebear casuals. “waaaa I wanna use my twilight waaaaa I don’t care if its 10% less dps” is no different than “waaaa I like my celestial gear because I play how I want.”

Well atleast there was some weapon swapping there. How do you feel about GS-camping being the best DPS option now? As boring as only-axe in my opinion.

The only fun part about playing warrior is seeing big numbers. GS camping allows maximum viewing of big numbers. Therefore it is more fun than pure axe!

Quickfoot Katana.8642:

Tree.3916:

Most people who think the axe warrior build is boring probably haven’t played it. Doing the proper rotation is a bit more challenging than the gs+axe build and it’s significantly more active, especially the EA build that Eviscerates as part of the rotation.

I feel like I’m surrounded by crybaby carebear casuals. “waaaa I wanna use my twilight waaaaa I don’t care if its 10% less dps” is no different than “waaaa I like my celestial gear because I play how I want.”

Well atleast there was some weapon swapping there. How do you feel about GS-camping being the best DPS option now? As boring as only-axe in my opinion.

You can run whatever you want really. The best dps build is only about 400 dps ahead of the least dps of viable builds. The gap of 3% is pretty marginal either way, and is 100% affected by DPS rotations. Not all builds will be able to keep perfect rotations as easily.

GS camping has obvious upsides in that it is the easiest rotation to maintain of all: spam skills on cool down and you dont have to worry about interrupting autos. But it has drawbacks as well, such as being dependent on WWA to achieve its dps superiority. WWA has severe drawbacks, but huge upsides.

Pure axe has a more complicated chain, you have more cool downs to manage and you have to avoid interrupting your auto chain. It has low initial burst damage but has very high consistent sustained damage. On one hand the dps rotation is difficult to perfect because it has a lot of parts to manage, but on the other hand in many cases it’s easier to maintain than others since you aren’t rooted by your best dps skills and you aren’t dependent on the boss being against a wall or having a large hit box to keep your DPS high.

GS+Axe is interesting because you can tailor your rotation to suit your goal. If you camp GS with a 6/5/0/0/3 build you will do nearly as much DPS as a pure GS build if you just want to max DPS. Alternatively, the tried and true swap on cool down rotation we have all used for a year and a half is the best way to maximize Vulnerability of the three major options. So much like you’d expect, a build with fast hands sacrifices some DPS to achieve versatility.

Dommmmmmmmmm.6984:

Anytime I don’t see people click their endurance bar I think “lol. Casuals”

o_O
why?
how is clicking endurance bar with mouse and skills with keyboard different from clicking skills with mouse and dodging with keyboard?

You’re 2 weeks late with that question.