Guild Wars 2

This game has been out for a while and people are exploiting it with “Speed Runs” and “Skipping” packs of mobs. I am so tired by people trying to save 5 minutes (really it doesn’t because they have to come back anyhow to rez someone).

This game can be fixed in a few simple steps:

1: Perma aggro. Once you aggro, the mobs follow you throughout the whole dungeon. Stealth does not break aggro – in fact it takes the mob to the rest of the group. (Like WoW – sorry, it works)

2: No switching characters to get loot. Seriously? There needs to be some sort of certificate or something. Also, if you need to switch characters to incorporate into the strategy, you need to fix the game in general. Versatile classes?

3: Indicate who the party leader is. Because, I invited everyone and someone else was party leader. There is no visual element telling you who it is. A CROWN or something, like every other game. When the person switched, we were all booted…. Troll-proofing?

4: Please have a dungeon finder… It isn’t really a new thought – for crying out loud. You are making people use 3rd party applications and websites… g w 2 l f g . c o m

I’ve been burnt way too many times by this game. If anyone else has any feedback, write it here. This game needs fixed. Too many people trying to save 30 seconds.

Aller

Why fix what isnt broken?
People will skip, its designed to be skipped, if you don’t like it, dont party with them. Theres so many of these threads trying to convert “skippers” to play how they want them to play and have yet to see a thread of a skipper complaining on the forums about people who dont want to skip.

You should have typed: ‘exploit’ because skipping is not one.

3. You do not get booted if the party leader switches character. Only if he leaves the party. That one really needs a fix though, because some ‘people’ just leave after they got their own loot.

My feedback?

1. Don’t fix what’s not broken. Perma aggro lol, so thieves might as well be deleted.

2. Classes aren’t balanced because how many balancing patches did we have?

3. There’s no such thing as party leader in dungeon, it’s instance owner.

4. Find friends instead of relying on some automatic system to find baddies similiar to you. It’s a mmo for crying out loud, social aspects need to exist.

Here’s a better “fix” make dungeon loot not suck, even if it was scraps always dropping off a mob that could be sold, it could just barely be worth it. Or by adding more cash to gold level mobs and silver level mobs appropriately. Rewarding players for doing something is always better than punishing them for not doing something.

But ultimately your problem lies in not making the kind of groups you want.

Skipping is fundamentally broken. You can skip Kohler in AC. I’m sure the lieutenant guarding the dungeon will just forget about you after spotting you.

I hate to bring up WoW because it is…. WoW… But honestly, there are some things that work there that were used in older MMOs. This game is trying too hard to be different.

MY question is, why Skip when it takes longer?

WoW uses the perma aggro to try and thwart this – Thieves can still stealth out of the aggro of a mob, but they should train onto the rest of the group.

It’s just silly. Also, the bugs caused by skipping are unreal. So it’s not really designed to be skipped, is it?

The problem with your solution, Shuguard, I have clearly defined what we are going to do and people just break the rules all of the time. Im not too strict… Ill even skip oozes in AC, but people just say, “Yea, sure” but don’t listen at all. It’s just unreal.

Azix.4123:

The problem with your solution, Shuguard, I have clearly defined what we are going to do and people just break the rules all of the time. Im not too strict… Ill even skip oozes in AC, but people just say, “Yea, sure” but don’t listen at all. It’s just unreal.

They will skip anyways, you can’t completely stop it, but if you can give them good enough reason to not skip a majority will change. I can’t give an end all answer unless perma-aggro + good rewards are in place, because changing a human nature is very difficult.
Edit: if those people are giving trouble then just kick them, you want to put a constraint on the group, so you must deal with it.

Skipping not an exploit, QQ more.

Give incentive to killing trash mobs or lower their health so they can be “farmed” as fast as the DE chains in Orr and maybe people would actually want to kill them.

Azix.4123:

Skipping is fundamentally broken. You can skip Kohler in AC. I’m sure the lieutenant guarding the dungeon will just forget about you after spotting you.

I hate to bring up WoW because it is…. WoW… But honestly, there are some things that work there that were used in older MMOs. This game is trying too hard to be different.

MY question is, why Skip when it takes longer?

WoW uses the perma aggro to try and thwart this – Thieves can still stealth out of the aggro of a mob, but they should train onto the rest of the group.

It’s just silly. Also, the bugs caused by skipping are unreal. So it’s not really designed to be skipped, is it?

The dev’s have gone so far as to state that Khoeler is optional. In runs I do (money runs) we kill him because he’s an easy 14s and a chest with 1s-3s of vendor trash.

Skipping takes longer if you or your group members don’t know how to skip properly (e.g. When skipping the gravelings in the hall they die on the traps or pull the aggro with them to khoeler)

Also why did you need to make ANOTHER thread about this, we have lots.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Skipping-getting-out-of-hand/page/2#post1093716
Here’s one on the front page.

Azix.4123:

MY question is, why Skip when it takes longer?

Skipping has been around since GW1. Check out some of the speed clear videos from back then. People only killed what was in the way. Killing everything was something you would probably do if you were new to the instance or did not fully understand how the instance objectives worked.

The way I see it is that those groups with people unable to skip properly should not skip. My team and I have done AC so many times that we know all the mob patrol routes and their AI. When we go to fight something like howling king or colossus rumblus, we drag the trash breeders onto the boss to kill them all at the same time without any deaths (or downs, even), rather than killing the trash one by one until we get to the boss. We generate income faster by hitting all the key targets in AC (champion gravelings, queen, kholer, and legendary gravelings). We’re past the exploration and learning stage of the dungeons, so why should we have to kill trash that doesn’t provide any purpose? There’s no loot incentive, blocked doors, infinite aggro range, etc. We don’t die from skipping the unnecessary mobs because we know how they behave and how to counter them (ex: anti-kd or fast kiting skills vs. AC graveling scavengers in the trap hallway). Our AC runs take 15 mins or less, and 30 mins or less for most other dungeons.

I’m assuming your skipping problem happened with a PuG. One of the reasons that it doesn’t work out in PuGs is that people have different ideas as to what qualifies as a speed clear. Sometimes people skip Kholer and the champions because it’s a waste of their time. To some, those things are more profitable because of effective killing and use of omnom bars. When you skip things with an actual organized group, everyone should be on the same page. Skipping can make runs slower or faster, depending on how well the team understands the situation. In any case, it’s already been officially stated that skipping is an option (old thread; Rob H posted). People just need to be more cooperative and make sure they don’t leave people behind. Otherwise, the people ahead can finish the dungeon with their ego and an empty party.

Actually azix i thought of a slightly better idea. Rather than my previous ideas. But this is mostly for a future patch update idea. There should be a group clear bonus at the end of the dungeon rewards. For example. Say each mob was organized into groups, lets take AC for example, The first pack of gravelings in the hallway with the traps as group 1. Then add a few more packs that are scattered into groups. Now this idea goes like this:

At the end give the players the standard dungeon reward, and here’s the kicker, for each mob group that is cleared give bonus exp, karma, tokens, loot/cash(whichever anet chooses). Make maybe 3-5 groups of enemies per dungeon, this way clearing a dungeon is more rewarded. It might not give the option of full clearing a dungeon, but it could be better than speed clearing 2 paths rather than full clearing one. Ultimately Anet would have to balance this, since i don’t know all the metrics, but the thought counts.

Azix.4123:

WoW uses the perma aggro to try and thwart this – Thieves can still stealth out of the aggro of a mob, but they should train onto the rest of the group.

It’s just silly. Also, the bugs caused by skipping are unreal. So it’s not really designed to be skipped, is it?

It’s not WoW. Secondly, what purpose would Area Stealth combo fields serve?

Of course it’s not designed for skipping. But if you need about 20 runs for whole armour, after 5th run you gonna skip unless you have masochistic tendencies. Instead of fixing what is not broken give mobs better loot tables because mobs in open pve have better ones (and they die 50 times faster while posing 50 times less threat).

Honestly, I really don’t think skipping a bunch of trash mobs and even the occasional miniboss is such a bad thing. If it makes the dungeon more fun and is not an exploit, then where’s the harm?

If you want to do all the mobs on a path, just make a group of your own and do it that way. Let other people play the game the way they enjoy it.

That being said, I do like the idea above of bonus tokens for clearing each mob group. Gives an incentive to do a full clear the old-fashioned way – sounds kind of fun.

Shuguard.7125:

Actually azix i thought of a slightly better idea. Rather than my previous ideas. But this is mostly for a future patch update idea. There should be a group clear bonus at the end of the dungeon rewards. For example. Say each mob was organized into groups, lets take AC for example, The first pack of gravelings in the hallway with the traps as group 1. Then add a few more packs that are scattered into groups. Now this idea goes like this:

At the end give the players the standard dungeon reward, and here’s the kicker, for each mob group that is cleared give bonus exp, karma, tokens, loot/cash(whichever anet chooses). Make maybe 3-5 groups of enemies per dungeon, this way clearing a dungeon is more rewarded. It might not give the option of full clearing a dungeon, but it could be better than speed clearing 2 paths rather than full clearing one. Ultimately Anet would have to balance this, since i don’t know all the metrics, but the thought counts.

This guy for president.

I prefer to skip trash mob when possible myself. However for me, giving more incentives for “more complete”clears is acceptable I guess. For example Kholer, with the loot buff I find more people, including myself, more willing to kill him. Even though I stay away from lfg that specially states skipping him, I find that it is good to give ppl the choice to skip him or otherwise.

Trash mobs with the current system? Skip as much as possible. It is a matter of efficiency. There is no reason to kill them when they are the HP sponges as they are while offering rewards that are no better than the fodder mobs in the overworld, and are equally boring to fight. And I hope all of these will stay as far away from magic find as possible. This will create or rather worsen another set of conflicts imo.

Dev’s have stated several times that skipping is not an exploit.

Why fix skipping if the majority of players don’t have a problem with it? Also fix is a very bad word because nothing is broken. People go for the fastest and easiest way of doing things, it’s not a “problem” with the game, it’s the people. You can write thousands of posts and nothing will change. Devs allow skipping, people like skipping and if you don’t like it – it’s your problem since it is a part of the game.

And for future posts about trying to remove skipping please tell what gives you the right to decide how people should play the game – you seem to always miss that part.

Phoenix.7845:

Why fix skipping if the majority of players don’t have a problem with it?

Because the minority wants the majority to play the way they do so that they become the majority!

Heliox.8632:

Phoenix.7845:

Why fix skipping if the majority of players don’t have a problem with it?

Because the minority wants the majority to play the way they do so that they become the majority!

Good luck with that

the easiest solution is to kick anyone who dont want to skip from the party before you start the dungeon. that way they can make their own groups ( which id guess could be very hard. yay ) so they can play the way they want.

Skipping needs to be fixed.

>LF RUN ASC TO LA

Malediktus.9250:

Skipping needs to be fixed.

“fix” implies that there is a problem

Black Wolf.7348:

the easiest solution is to kick anyone who dont want to skip from the party before you start the dungeon. that way they can make their own groups ( which id guess could be very hard. yay ) so they can play the way they want.

Running dungeons with like-minded ppl. Everyone is happy.

Add token rewards to mob drops. easy as that. People would still skip the first run to get an easy 60 tokens but once DR kicks in clearing the dungeon would be more rewarding because you could get 20+ tokens from mob drops.

Malediktus.9250:

Skipping needs to be fixed.

And people need to play the game your style why exactly?

Put the chest at the entrance. You don’t need to skip anything.
Another way is a maze with infinite monsters, those who want to kill can get out to take the chest when they think they have killed enough.

This is the best way to satisfy both extreme
(Seriously why restrain ppl their way of playing?Just make a group that is dedicated to do it)

Phoenix.7845:

Malediktus.9250:

Skipping needs to be fixed.

And people need to play the game your style why exactly?

Cause minorities want the majority to play the way they want them to so that they then become the majority!

Azix.4123:

(really it doesn’t because they have to come back anyhow to rez someone).

Hahaha, no I dont. In fact none in my regular group is dying while skipping. And if someday someone dies we laugh at him, he puts on a spell more to survive or payes attention and gets trough alone. You hear me ALONE, if you don’t get trough alone you are bad and either dont know how to dodge or what spells your proffesion has or when to use them.

Azix.4123:

1: Perma aggro. Once you aggro, the mobs follow you throughout the whole dungeon. Stealth does not break aggro – in fact it takes the mob to the rest of the group. (Like WoW – sorry, it works)

Nope, there is still invis – also you can often just jump somewhere where mobs can’t follow you.

Azix.4123:

2: No switching characters to get loot. Seriously? There needs to be some sort of certificate or something. Also, if you need to switch characters to incorporate into the strategy, you need to fix the game in general. Versatile classes?

Nope again, if you fail to make a good group it is your fault. Five warriors with no bow/rifle in hotw-butcher-way: fun fun fun. I am not saying you should need a very specific group, but you shouldn’t be like “Five necros will work everyday everywhere”.
I like how it is now, you can do nearly everything with every group if people at least have different weapons with them and theirfor are compensating.

Azix.4123:

3: Indicate who the party leader is.

Would like some indicator too.

Azix.4123:

4: Please have a dungeon finder… It isn’t really a new thought – for crying out loud. You are making people use 3rd party applications and websites… g w 2 l f g . c o m

Yeah would be nice, but not really needed. I got a guild and a friendlist =)

Azix.4123:

I’ve been burnt way too many times by this game. If anyone else has any feedback, write it here. This game needs fixed. Too many people trying to save 30 seconds.

It is not like not-saving 30 seconds gives me anything that is worth 30 seconds. Also try kill everything you see while running trough arah – will be more like 30 minutes to an hour compared to skip. ( Same with ta i guess )

Skipping IS NOT a problem.

IMO, people play the game as they want to, whether that is skipping in instances or not.

In any other mmo, skipping can be done to make the instance “grind” quicker, this game isn’t different either.

If people want to do speed runs with maximum skipping, then so be it (rewards from the chests are always useless blues anyway….not really REWARDING)

Also, by skipping, this lets you do the instance faster, progress faster and lets you do more instances in a day.

If only arena net DID NOT PUNISH players for playing the game the way the player wants to with Diminished Returns, RNG and unrewarding loot/trash loot…………

The problem starts when 3-4 people skip and hte last 1-2 persons stay to kill the mobs and get killed. then start dying when trying to skip.

the main reason people want to kill everything is because they dont have the skill or knowledge to skip.

99% of the time its not worth killing everything because the mobs have too much hp and crap loot. I dont understand why people who want to kill mobs cant relise this even if they are told so in the dungeon. or worse, kill the mobs and see the poor loot they give…..

Most kitten idea, EVER.

Not sure if OP is trolling or stupid, honestly am already tired of people calling skipping mobs exploiting, but I will say it once again. Skipping mobs, neither bosses is not exploiting. That was confirmed by devs. If you don’t like it, that’s your own problem.

Skipping requires more skill than clearing the path from the last waypoint. I don’t think anyone is arguing this.

In a PuG, you should assume that all members have no skill.

So, I don’t skip in PuG groups, as I can’t trust them to be good enough. What people do in organised groups (other than my own) is none of my business.

I mostly run fractals so being the kind soul that i am i just choose to stay behind and solo all the mobs if my party decides to skip – That way if anything goes Pete Tong while i’m doing my solo run someone either has to come back and rezz me, continue with 4, or ( in a few cases) kick me and start over.

None of these bother me to be honest, feels good to know that you have wasted someone’s time who is trying to speed run a dungeon – As stated, people run Dungeons how they want, the way i want is killing mobs – so thats how i do, if the remainder of the party dont agree they know where to go.

My biggest gripe with this is that speed running is now the ‘norm’ – often i will get inside a dungeon and just see my party run past mobs with no forewarning, i then usually recieve a torrent of a abuse for staying and killing the mobs… I’m sorry, but isnt this how they are SUPPOSED to be run? Rather than joining and just assuming that everyone has the patience of a 2 year old child.

If you wanna speed run, do it with other people who want to, if those cant be found thats tough, you run it the proper way or not at all.

As stated, the fact that speed running is now the norm irritates me to the very core, this is why i do my upmost to irritate those ‘skippers’ the best i can.

Prezzy.2783:

I mostly run fractals so being the kind soul that i am i just choose to stay behind and solo all the mobs if my party decides to skip – That way if anything goes Pete Tong while i’m doing my solo run someone either has to come back and rezz me, continue with 4, or ( in a few cases) kick me and start over.

None of these bother me to be honest, feels good to know that you have wasted someone’s time who is trying to speed run a dungeon – As stated, people run Dungeons how they want, the way i want is killing mobs – so thats how i do, if the remainder of the party dont agree they know where to go.

My biggest gripe with this is that speed running is now the ‘norm’ – often i will get inside a dungeon and just see my party run past mobs with no forewarning, i then usually recieve a torrent of a abuse for staying and killing the mobs… I’m sorry, but isnt this how they are SUPPOSED to be run? Rather than joining and just assuming that everyone has the patience of a 2 year old child.

If you wanna speed run, do it with other people who want to, if those cant be found thats tough, you run it the proper way or not at all.

As stated, the fact that speed running is now the norm irritates me to the very core, this is why i do my upmost to irritate those ‘skippers’ the best i can.

How a dungeon is supposed to be run would be how the majority of the group wants to run the dungeon, it shouldn’t be based on what you perceive is the “correct” way, because believe me, a dungeon is not “supposed” to be done in any specific way.

If I ever had someone like you in my group it would be a swift kick. No point in trying to reason with you obviously and you only seem to care about yourself.

^ You sir, are so unbelievably right, i am selfish, now for the rest…

I’m fairly certain it is stated that a dungeon should be ran how you want? correct?
If i dont want to use my 1 run per day to skip all the mobs i am not going to, so rather than kick me and look for another pug the party usually decides to follow my que and start killing the mobs, especially on the occasions where i do it on Jade Maw – not been kicked there once funnily enough.

Let the haters hate – Gives me more Enjoyment out of playing the game so i am happy.

Prezzy.2783:

I mostly run fractals so being the kind soul that i am i just choose to stay behind and solo all the mobs if my party decides to skip – That way if anything goes Pete Tong while i’m doing my solo run someone either has to come back and rezz me, continue with 4, or ( in a few cases) kick me and start over.

None of these bother me to be honest, feels good to know that you have wasted someone’s time who is trying to speed run a dungeon – As stated, people run Dungeons how they want, the way i want is killing mobs – so thats how i do, if the remainder of the party dont agree they know where to go.

My biggest gripe with this is that speed running is now the ‘norm’ – often i will get inside a dungeon and just see my party run past mobs with no forewarning, i then usually recieve a torrent of a abuse for staying and killing the mobs… I’m sorry, but isnt this how they are SUPPOSED to be run? Rather than joining and just assuming that everyone has the patience of a 2 year old child.

If you wanna speed run, do it with other people who want to, if those cant be found thats tough, you run it the proper way or not at all.

As stated, the fact that speed running is now the norm irritates me to the very core, this is why i do my upmost to irritate those ‘skippers’ the best i can.

I agree with you. I am often doing the same.

Prezzy.2783:

^ You sir, are so unbelievably right, i am selfish, now for the rest…

I’m fairly certain it is stated that a dungeon should be ran how you want? correct?
If i dont want to use my 1 run per day to skip all the mobs i am not going to, so rather than kick me and look for another pug the party usually decides to follow my que and start killing the mobs, especially on the occasions where i do it on Jade Maw – not been kicked there once funnily enough.

Let the haters hate – Gives me more Enjoyment out of playing the game so i am happy.

Problem is, as you’ve said, you run mostly fractals where most of the loot comes from killing trash. In old dungeons, killing trash is a complete waste of time. They drop worse items than you can get in open world for the same effort. And dungeons are supposed to be end game. So people skip to get those shiny tokens faster. In fractals, I’m up for clearing them because mobs have much better loot tables.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but people skipped trash in WoW too. Also, when I played Aion online people use to skip trash all the way to the last boss in the dungeons.

Players are like electricity, they always try and find the route of least resistance.

the main reason people want to kill everything is because they dont have the skill or knowledge to skip.

Skipping requires more skill than clearing the path from the last waypoint. I don’t think anyone is arguing this.

Let’s not do this, guys. You don’t need to put down people who don’t share your viewpoint. This doesn’t have be a divisive topic.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but people skipped trash in WoW too

Man, if this game did skipping like WoW, I would love that to pieces.
In the time I was playing you skipped rarely and in predetermined places paced well throughout the dungeon. Not a sprinkling of predetermined places and then anywhere else the playerbase could manage by virtue of leashing. Every so now and again they made those experiences somewhat memorable with interesting twists. I still remember the insta-death slimes that created a ‘Frogger’ hallway, for instance.

Vox Hollow.2736:

the main reason people want to kill everything is because they dont have the skill or knowledge to skip.

Skipping requires more skill than clearing the path from the last waypoint. I don’t think anyone is arguing this.

Let’s not do this, guys. You don’t need to put down people who don’t share your viewpoint. This doesn’t have be a divisive topic.

Umm, where am I putting anyone down? Other than the people who try to skip with groups that don’t want to?

Well, it depends on whether you consider skipping/ speed running to be exploits at all. A lot of people don’t.

I run dungeons without skipping big chunks most of the time, but do occasionally take part in speed runs when it’s a path I’ve already done before. The entire playerbase shouldn’t be punished because some people do nothing but skip.

((On a side-note, perma-aggro is a really bad idea. It would fix a problem, but introduce a worse one. Sometimes mobs just need to be outrun)).

I only have a few things to say.

First, thanks to those people who admit that they only think of themselves and not as a group, i will remember to not invite them. I personally dont care how a dungeon is run. It is a team decision, i usually ask at th start something like skip? Or kill kholer? And the majority decides, everyone is happy. There is no misbehaving little kid whose like nook but i want to so it this way! If you want to run it a certain one, clearly state it at the start and not inside.

Secondly, anet has confirmed at least skipping certain bosses was by design. Mostly the bonus events etc. im also pretty sure that certain things like mobs hitting other mobs, skipping waves of monsters were by design. Else anet could easily have patched t his ages ago just by extending the aggro range of these creeps. But no, they were specifically designed to lose aggro at certain distances which happens to be wa la! That tiny area without mobs!

Now skipping is really a player skill thing and usually if its a pug i dont feel confident with, i dont skip, simple as that. Else if everyone ie the majority is happy, we skip the ones we agree one. Seriously though, no immature bs midway, if you want to state your play style, do it at the start so people know. I would not hesistate to kick you in jade maw if u died to a mob that the team as a group decided to skip since i can easily finish that with two people or less.

Spelling errors cause on ipad and its late…

By all means though, if anet officially says its not as intended or exploit, i would back it up completely

Black Wolf.7348:

The problem starts when 3-4 people skip and hte last 1-2 persons stay to kill the mobs and get killed. then start dying when trying to skip.

When this happens I just kick them. If the majority agrees to something and you decide “kitten them, I do what I want” then I’m going to kick you.

Prezzy.2783:

I mostly run fractals so being the kind soul that i am i just choose to stay behind and solo all the mobs if my party decides to skip – That way if anything goes Pete Tong while i’m doing my solo run someone either has to come back and rezz me, continue with 4, or ( in a few cases) kick me and start over.

None of these bother me to be honest, feels good to know that you have wasted someone’s time who is trying to speed run a dungeon – As stated, people run Dungeons how they want, the way i want is killing mobs – so thats how i do, if the remainder of the party dont agree they know where to go.

My biggest gripe with this is that speed running is now the ‘norm’ – often i will get inside a dungeon and just see my party run past mobs with no forewarning, i then usually recieve a torrent of a abuse for staying and killing the mobs… I’m sorry, but isnt this how they are SUPPOSED to be run? Rather than joining and just assuming that everyone has the patience of a 2 year old child.

If you wanna speed run, do it with other people who want to, if those cant be found thats tough, you run it the proper way or not at all.

As stated, the fact that speed running is now the norm irritates me to the very core, this is why i do my upmost to irritate those ‘skippers’ the best i can.

Immature and petty children like you who don’t know how to be a team player are swiftly kicked from my parties.

This arguing will not go anywhere.

People want to play and kill and be better doing that, increasing their chances to get more rares and exotics. And if you get some blues or whites is just random luck, most my friends get 2 or 3 rares a day doing ascalon using food and banner of magic find.

People want to skip directly to the end and get only the final reward and run to other dungeons, minimizing the chances to have to repair armors and maximizing the profit doing more and more speed runs.

It´s just two way to think, and the second is more satisfiing to most people, addicted to these “instant gratification”. To me I just prefer the long term profit.

And tell people don´t have the knowledge to skip is the same to me that people don´t have knowledge to kill fast, get more rewards and don´t die in the meantime, so before put someone down there are always two ways to think about something.

I have no interest engaging you on the particulars of your slight. This can’t possibly be productive. If your intentions are truly wholesome, simply take more care in the future to remember delivering yourself as pat on the back doesn’t have to be done at another’s expense.

evolverzilla.2359:

To me I just prefer the long term profit.

You know killing mobs has oppertunity costs.
But I agree if everyone in the group has mf-gear on and banner-buffs and mf-food it is probably worth killing the mobs, because you already commited so much.
But I never was in such a group ( exception of course some farming-spots like arah first boss – but we are not talking about that ), so why don’t you come out of your ivory tower =)