How to make your fellow Ele party-mate proud

How to make your fellow Ele party-mate proud

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Anierna.6918

Anierna.6918

Exactly, Lilith! You said it very well. That’s the whole reason we write guides; to inform the ignorant pug populace of the optimal methods of play. So instead of explaining everything to each pug individually, which would be very time consuming, we can say “read this guide and get back to me with your questions.”

@ Sarah: The objective of PvE is to complete it as quickly as possible. Zerk/assassins is optimal for achieving that. It also forces a player to becomes better because it eliminates his margin for error. Anyone who does not accept this is delusional. I’m fine with you being delusional; that’s your choice. But the buck stops when you try passing your delusions onto others. Spreading misinformation to innocent little pugs is a travesty. You’d be a better help to the community by refraining from saying anything at all.

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Posted by: laharl.8435

laharl.8435

So just because you guys um.. fully learnt the boss moves off-by-heart on your zerker gear that means your better than someone who learnt the moves on a different gear set.

Right..

Not going to lie, the fact that your attitude has shifted so significantly from your Teachers post to now is really disheartening.

As an IRL teacher, I know that good teachers understand that there will be people out there who know more than you do, and the best thing you can do, to teach well, is to accept that you won’t always be right. Learning more is always the way to be an effective teacher.

Very disappointed.

This post really upset me, and I had a hard time to adjust to this and understand it. I ask a friend about it and we think there is a misunderstanding of what I mean.

The thing I hate about “zerker” is people who say that they are a better player just cause they are wearing it

I’m not looking down on people who’re running “zerkers”, its just I do not believe either are superior and that you don’t need to have either equipped to learn the attack patterns of the dungeon bosses. I believe some people play better in whatever outfit they are in and of course people play differently, I just hope everyone can work with each other.

Sarah

People are not better because they run zerker. Do not misunderstand. However, wearing zerker requires a person to become a better player.

Exactly, simply running zerk does not make one better. Zerker is the natural evolution of good pve player. If a PVT player finds that (s)he has truly learned the content and they know how to mitigate all the damage that matters, the next step is naturally to move up to less defensive gear. Why have all those defensive stats if you don’t need them?

If you’re still dying or barely staying alive in your PVT, fine, you still need it, nothing wrong with that. But if you know the content so well you’re mitigating most damage without your stats, it’s only logical to add more dps to your build.

How to make your fellow Ele party-mate proud

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Posted by: Sarahfull.4930

Sarahfull.4930

You guys are right, Im a horrorable teacher. Im speading toxic ways to new-comers.

I know now:

  • The only way to learn in guildwars PvE is zerkers ( all information learnt in other outfits should be thrown under a bus )
  • The only way to become better in guildwars PvE is zerkers ( personal rules / goals dont matter unless your in zerker )

Edit: this was meant to be my last post on this forum, it was meant to be in the tone of: " I give up" , " I see your ways are better" , " Ill stop fighting cause its pointless" Wasnt meant to be sarcastic. Idk how else to explain it.. please respect this as my last post

(edited by Sarahfull.4930)

How to make your fellow Ele party-mate proud

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: LittleLepton.8915

LittleLepton.8915

You guys are right, Im a horrorable teacher. Im speading toxic ways to new-comers.

I know now:

  • The only way to learn in guildwars PvE is zerkers ( all information learnt in other outfits should be thrown under a bus )
  • The only way to become better in guildwars PvE is zerkers ( personal rules / goals dont matter unless your in zerker )

I… Don’t know what to say anymore.

I tried, I’m sorry if you misunderstand.

Good day.

You don’t know me.

#LilithFan#1

How to make your fellow Ele party-mate proud

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Posted by: J Eberle.9312

J Eberle.9312

You guys are right, Im a horrorable teacher. Im speading toxic ways to new-comers.

I know now:

  • The only way to learn in guildwars PvE is zerkers ( all information learnt in other outfits should be thrown under a bus )
  • The only way to become better in guildwars PvE is zerkers ( personal rules / goals dont matter unless your in zerker )

You are severely misinterpreting what is being said.

How to make your fellow Ele party-mate proud

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: LittleLepton.8915

LittleLepton.8915

You guys are right, Im a horrorable teacher. Im speading toxic ways to new-comers.

I know now:

  • The only way to learn in guildwars PvE is zerkers ( all information learnt in other outfits should be thrown under a bus )
  • The only way to become better in guildwars PvE is zerkers ( personal rules / goals dont matter unless your in zerker )

You are severely misinterpreting what is being said.

I think it’s too late. I just don’t understand what could possibly drive someone to act so irrationally. Especially with the teachers thread, why bomb something that was actually working over a couple posts that had nothing to do with it?

You don’t know me.

#LilithFan#1

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Posted by: DigitalKirin.9714

DigitalKirin.9714

Most likely this post:

@ Sarah: The objective of PvE is to complete it as quickly as possible. Zerk/assassins is optimal for achieving that. It also forces a player to becomes better because it eliminates his margin for error. Anyone who does not accept this is delusional. I’m fine with you being delusional; that’s your choice. But the buck stops when you try passing your delusions onto others. Spreading misinformation to innocent little pugs is a travesty. You’d be a better help to the community by refraining from saying anything at all.

From what I can tell, most people usually take offense when being called delusional. They usually also take offense when being told they’re spreading misinformation. And in such a hurt state, people usually tend to lash out as well. She probably took down the post to say, “Well if you want me to refrain from saying anything at all, then fine. I’ll show you how my refraining from saying anything is actually a detriment to the community.”

Genevieve Talbot [NP] – Noble Phantasm on Stormbluff Isle

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Posted by: LittleLepton.8915

LittleLepton.8915

We were just trying to educate. And at least, I thought my posts weren’t mean, just, honest. :/ sorry.

You don’t know me.

#LilithFan#1

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Posted by: DigitalKirin.9714

DigitalKirin.9714

Really not your fault, Lilith. The post I was quoting wasn’t from you, and her reaction is merely based on this fragile thing humans have called ego.

I don’t think you should be sorry. And I don’t say this to be mean to Sarahfull. In a sense, I pity her. I think that she is over-reacting and I think that feeling sorry is merely feeding into her over-reaction and teaches her that throwing a small fit will get her what she wants. This kind of behaviour should not be patronized.

Genevieve Talbot [NP] – Noble Phantasm on Stormbluff Isle

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Posted by: FenrirSlakt.3692

FenrirSlakt.3692

You guys are right, Im a horrorable teacher. Im speading toxic ways to new-comers.

I know now:

  • The only way to learn in guildwars PvE is zerkers ( all information learnt in other outfits should be thrown under a bus )
  • The only way to become better in guildwars PvE is zerkers ( personal rules / goals dont matter unless your in zerker )

Your completely misinterpreting everything said on this thread, and frankly, if you’re so intent on taking offense from everything and discarding it, holding no regard for whatever useful info you can salvage from it, you are terrible student, and a terrible student will always make a terrible teacher.

Good day.

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Posted by: Falunel.7645

Falunel.7645

Anierna.6918

@ Sarah: The objective of PvE is to complete it as quickly as possible. Zerk/assassins is optimal for achieving that. It also forces a player to becomes better because it eliminates his margin for error. Anyone who does not accept this is delusional. I’m fine with you being delusional; that’s your choice. But the buck stops when you try passing your delusions onto others. Spreading misinformation to innocent little pugs is a travesty. You’d be a better help to the community by refraining from saying anything at all.

sorry, but

The objective of PvE is to complete it as quickly as possible.

Where exactly are you getting this? Maybe it is for you, but it isn’t for everyone. Some people just play the content because they like it, or because it’s their way of spending time with friends, and they don’t care if it takes ten more seconds or ten more minutes or if they have to wipe ten times in the process, as long as they’re enjoying themselves and laughing up a storm in the process. I’ve been in the groups that run everything swiftly and smoothly as butter, and I’ve been in the groups that meander through things but socialize a lot and have many laughs together. There’s fun in both types.

I’ve met people who are anxious as glass. People who are anxious in melee and range instead. People who find the meta builds incredibly boring and like to experiment in dungeons. I am not anxious as glass, love melee, and play meta-slanted builds in groups that can support them because I personally like to push the envelope and am a math person. But I respect the people who do not do that, because people are different and enjoy a game differently.

If this was a business, you’d be justified in saying that the most efficient way is the only way. But this isn’t a business- this is a god kitten game. It’s shocking how many people forget that. Someone who decides to run PVT in their own group several servers over has no effect on your zerker only group- and by all means, go ahead and make your zerker only groups. It’s not the PVT group’s business.

That being said, I personally believe -this- is how things should be taught:

-Newcomers in dungeons should be allowed to wear whatever they like on teaching runs, and be taught the traditional (no exploits, minimize stacking) way of running first. This is because traditional runs, though less efficient, do a better job of teaching boss mechanics and instilling a fear of red circles/glowy animations than speedruns where the boss will die before putting out said red circles and glowy animations. As for “wear what you want,” defensive stats do make a difference. Sure you can’t facetank and it’s now three hits instead of one to kill you, but it’s much easier to learn with a margin for error.
-If the student will be PUGing or speedrunning later, teach speedruns, but again, only after teaching the traditional way first. Preferably do multiple traditional runs to get the student used to mechanics. If multiple runs are impossible, say “this is where you would stack if you were speedrunning,” etc.
-Explain the zerker meta and why it’s efficient, but emphasize that it’s ultimately a matter of choice and group. If the student’s into speedrunning or hardcore PvE, let them know to use zerker. If they just want normal runs with PUGs, explain that some PUGs are going to ask for zerkers, but they can join PUGs who don’t care or even start their own groups. If they’re doing casual runs with friends/guildies, then it’s entirely up to them.

Ultimately, students should be given the information to choose and explanations of what to expect for each option, but the choice should be left up to them. There is never any “only” way to do things, especially not in games.

Saying that zerker is the most efficient way to run things isn’t a delusion.
Likewise, saying that there are other methods of doing PvE other than zerker isn’t a delusion.
Saying that people should play as they want isn’t a delusion.
Saying that everyone should conform to your notion of fun and play the game your way, even if they do it in their own groups and leave you to your own methods, IS a delusion.

Falunel – Sylvari Elementalist | Falche Graysong – Human Mesmer | Tarnished Coast
Ember Solace [SOL] – A guild welcoming of newbies and those at the margins.
New Player Outreach Thread

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Posted by: Clumsy.6257

Clumsy.6257

@falunel: let me give you a metaphor, when you teach someone how to make a wheel you don’t tell them to use the very first version that inevitably was a square and didnt work well, you tell them to go straight to a circle because thats what works best

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Posted by: Anierna.6918

Anierna.6918

“The objective of PvE is to complete it as quickly as possible” because PvE is repetitive, and thus it becomes boring. I run dungeons every single night at reset. Doing them so often, how could it not become boring? Doing them takes 3-4 hours, then I finish my PvE and PvP dailies and I’m done for the day.

That “3-4 hours” is drawing from a dozen people on my friends list who are properly geared (zerk/scholars, double-stacking sigils, meta builds, etc) AND who are usually on at reset and ready to start the dungeon tour at exactly 7 PM East Coast time. I start them then because I don’t want to be up all night playing this game. I have RL stuff to do the next morning.

The problem is that most people aren’t logged in and ready to start dungeons exactly at reset (there are a lot more than those dozen ppl on my friends list, but they just aren’t on or are doing WvW or something). Sometimes people can’t stay for the entire 3-4 hours, usually because they are in a different time-zone and need to go to sleep or because they have other RL commitments. Therefore, we need to pug a spot or two via the LFG tool. This is where the problems start.

So my group puts up an advert under some dungeon for “p__, speedruns, zerk scholar/ruby only, ping gear” to pug 2 spots. We don’t particularly care about which classes come along, since we’ve all got multiple toons in meta specs and can relog to another class if needed. We only care that whoever we pug plays the meta for their class and won’t slow us down.

The problem is that PUGS DON’T READ THE DESCRIPTION. We usually end up kicking a bunch of noobs with sub-1000 AP, noobs who don’t ping their gear, and the especially annoying noobs who join just to call us “elitists” and trash-talk us before leaving the group. After about 5-10 mins, we usually find a proper pug with full zerk, but once we get into the dungeon, he’s using shout-heals or bearbow or mace/shield guard or some other ridiculousness. Sometimes he’s just a stubborn noob who refuses to play the meta, but more often than not, he’s just ignorant of what the meta is.

THIS is the problem I have; people like this pug I’m using as an example were given false information by non-meta players. They watched vids or read guides by anti-meta people like Nemesis and played those builds in speed-runs. I dont’ blame those pugs; it’s not their fault. It’s the fault of the non-meta players who spread their delusions around the community. It would be better for the community if anyone who disagrees with the meta would just keep it to themselves, or if they really must publicize it, start with a disclaimer similar to: This build does less dmg than the meta – it should not be used in speedruns. But this isn’t happening; people like Nemesis are promoting their own sub-optimal builds over the metas, and impressionable pugs are listening to them. Basically, it’s false advertising, and the people that are truly being hurt are the pugs.

(edited by Anierna.6918)

How to make your fellow Ele party-mate proud

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Creslin.1758

Creslin.1758

You guys are right, Im a horrorable teacher. Im speading toxic ways to new-comers.

I know now:

  • The only way to learn in guildwars PvE is zerkers ( all information learnt in other outfits should be thrown under a bus )
  • The only way to become better in guildwars PvE is zerkers ( personal rules / goals dont matter unless your in zerker )

Sarah, don’t listen to the elitist drivel that permeates this forum.

It honestly annoys me that people flip out so much about someone that, by choice, doesn’t wear zerker gear. Is it really that big of a deal that it took you two additional minutes to clear the dungeon? Seriously?

I mean, if you want to do speed clears with your guild or pre-made, that’s awesome, go for it. It’s probably a really fun goal to have. But please DO NOT try to constantly FORCE this elitist speed clear full zerker or GTFO crap on the rest of the player base.

If you join a PUG, you should expect just that…a pick up group of random players. And kicking one of those players because they could damage your precious speed clear time is a kitten move. I don’t care if it’s the norm (so sad), it’s still a kitten move.

And you know what, I’m not getting berserkers ever. I’m getting celestial…reason being that I want to WvW roam at some point and I think berserker for WvW roaming will get you killed real fast. Deal with it.

Magaera Enflanza (F Human D/D Ele)
[Envy], [Moon]

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Posted by: Creslin.1758

Creslin.1758

“The objective of PvE is to complete it as quickly as possible” because PvE is repetitive, and thus it becomes boring. I run dungeons every single night at reset. Doing them so often, how could it not become boring? Doing them takes 3-4 hours, then I finish my PvE and PvP dailies and I’m done for the day.

That “3-4 hours” is drawing from a dozen people on my friends list who are properly geared (zerk/scholars, double-stacking sigils, meta builds, etc) AND who are usually on at reset and ready to start the dungeon tour at exactly 7 PM East Coast time. I start them then because I don’t want to be up all night playing this game. I have RL stuff to do the next morning.

The problem is that most people aren’t logged in and ready to start dungeons exactly at reset (there are a lot more than those dozen ppl on my friends list, but they just aren’t on or are doing WvW or something). Sometimes people can’t stay for the entire 3-4 hours, usually because they are in a different time-zone and need to go to sleep or because they have other RL commitments. Therefore, we need to pug a spot or two via the LFG tool. This is where the problems start.

So my group puts up an advert under some dungeon for “p__, speedruns, zerk scholar/ruby only, ping gear” to pug 2 spots. We don’t particularly care about which classes come along, since we’ve all got multiple toons in meta specs and can relog to another class if needed. We only care that whoever we pug plays the meta for their class and won’t slow us down.

The problem is that PUGS DON’T READ THE DESCRIPTION. We usually end up kicking a bunch of noobs with sub-1000 AP, noobs who don’t ping their gear, and the especially annoying noobs who join just to call us “elitists” and trash-talk us before leaving the group. After about 5-10 mins, we usually find a proper pug with full zerk, but once we get into the dungeon, he’s using shout-heals or bearbow or mace/shield guard or some other ridiculousness. Sometimes he’s just a stubborn noob who refuses to play the meta, but more often than not, he’s just ignorant of what the meta is.

THIS is the problem I have; people like this pug I’m using as an example were given false information by non-meta players. They watched vids or read guides by anti-meta people like Nemesis and played those builds in speed-runs. I dont’ blame those pugs; it’s not their fault. It’s the fault of the non-meta players who spread their delusions around the community. It would be better for the community if anyone who disagrees with the meta would just keep it to themselves, or if they really must publicize it, start with a disclaimer similar to: This build does less dmg than the meta – it should not be used in speedruns. But this isn’t happening; people like Nemesis are promoting their own sub-optimal builds over the metas, and impressionable pugs are listening to them. Basically, it’s false advertising, and the people that are truly being hurt are the pugs.

Wow.

Uh, sorry that the PUG players you picked up didn’t live up to your ridiculous expectations?

Maybe instead of expecting random PUG players to live up to whatever extreme expectations you have of them, you should just lower your expectations to something more realistic…you probably won’t be so upset then.

Also, you should realize that the fact you didn’t have a full group is YOUR problem, not that PUG players problem.

Magaera Enflanza (F Human D/D Ele)
[Envy], [Moon]

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Posted by: Anierna.6918

Anierna.6918

No, the problem is that there are a great many pugs who want to play efficiently, who want to participate in speedruns and help their group as much as they can, but they are being given bad information. They are being told that stacking healing power with clerics will help their group, that using a bear pet to “tank” will help their group, that using shouts to heal will help their group.

The people who give that sort of delusional information need to either:
1) Keep it to themselves; or
2) Start with a disclaimer that their builds are inferior to the meta.

That disclaimer is important because it prevents innocent, impressionable pugs from getting the wrong ideas, and inevitably having a rude wake-up call when they try to join a speed-run group or try to pug a 6 min CoF and end up completing it in 30 mins.

As for my own personal nightly dungeons, it’s not that big of an issue. We only end up pug’ing 1 or 2 spots. The issue is that we need to kick a great many pugs before we find one who fits our criteria, and I truly feel sorry for most of those pugs. They want to be part of a speedclear group, they don’t want to spend 8 hours on the same dungeon route that we complete in 3-4 hours, but through no fault of their own they are not equipped to do so. The blame lies with the people who promoted non-meta builds without disclaiming that the metas are superior in PvE.

(edited by Anierna.6918)

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Posted by: Falunel.7645

Falunel.7645

@falunel: let me give you a metaphor, when you teach someone how to make a wheel you don’t tell them to use the very first version that inevitably was a square and didnt work well, you tell them to go straight to a circle because thats what works best

Here is my metaphor- the calculator.

It is inarguable that using a calculator is easier and faster than mental math (unless you have a godly gift with numbers, which most people do not). Calculators are also in easy access, portable and cheap. Why, then, do you think math teachers forbid students who are just learning the fundamentals from using calculators?

Solve this in your head or on paper, right now: 314 + 128. It shouldn’t be too hard for anyone here. But I’m pretty sure everyone here has had math teachers who’ve refused to let them use calculators when they were learning to add.

Here’s what your thought process likely was on that question: you added the numbers in the ones position, 4 and 8, to get 12. You carried over the one and added it to the tens, 1 and 2, to get 4. Then you added the hundreds to get 4. Answer: 442.

It seems like such an easy and logical process to you. However, imagine a person who has never learned to add beyond counting things on his fingers. Perhaps he might not have even learned that. Instead, whenever he had to solve a problem, he was handed a calculator and taught how to punch in the numbers. That’s all math is to him- punching in the numbers.

Now, ask him to solve 314 + 128 without a calculator. Remember, he hasn’t learned -anything- at all about math. Chances are, he’s going to struggle. When he goes out on his own, into a world that demands addition of grocery prices, bills, gas, etc, he’ll be bound to his calculator. He can’t do anything without it.

Now, take that a step further, and imagine if all the calculators in the world stopped working. Or imagine him getting thrust into an alternate universe where there are no calculators at all. What can he do then? He can learn, but better to learn early on than when he’s at the stage of needing to buy groceries. Meanwhile, the people who have learned early on how to add without calculators will have a better grasp of the situation.

That’s what teaching traditional before speedruns is all about. It’s less efficient, it’s clunkier, it’s rather painful at times. But it teaches you how to add instead of just handing you a calculator. You’re better equipped to understand the game and adapt to novel situations. I fight Kholer without stacking and have zero issues. I ran with a guildmate the other day, though, who has only ever killed him by stacking. He struggled, a lot. Fell prey to almost every pull.

Now, imagine if Kholer was altered so he was unskippable and unstackable. Or if a boss was added like him that was unstackable. Recall that Anet’s looking to address the zerker meta. And what if that player looked to enter PvP, our alternate universe where calculators don’t exist? Of course, dungeoning alone won’t make you a PvP master, but in traditional runs, you are exposed to fights that do not end in a blink, where you must dodge more than two attacks and understand how to sustain yourself.

Granted, as I said before, this is a game. If someone outright says, “I don’t care about mastering everything, I just want to speedrun,” go ahead and teach them the speedrun. However, in other cases, especially cases where people say, “I want to learn,” teach traditional before speedruns if at all possible.

And @Anierna.6918, that’s NOT a “play how you want” problem, that’s a reading comprehension problem, which is an entirely different thing. In those cases, yes, it’s the PUGs’ faults for not reading. It’s illogical to insist EVERYONE adopt the zerker meta just because you ran into some dumb players, just as it’s illogical for someone to insist that all rangers should reroll because they asked for heavies only and a ranger joined. Many of the non-meta players I know outright avoid zerk/speedrun parties and make their own groups. If someone doesn’t read when you ask for zerkers only, go ahead and kick them (you have every right to do so if they don’t read), then get on with your day.

Also, for your latter post, that’s why I included point three:

-Explain the zerker meta and why it’s efficient, but emphasize that it’s ultimately a matter of choice and group. If the student’s into speedrunning or hardcore PvE, let them know to use zerker. If they just want normal runs with PUGs, explain that some PUGs are going to ask for zerkers, but they can join PUGs who don’t care or even start their own groups. If they’re doing casual runs with friends/guildies, then it’s entirely up to them.

Falunel – Sylvari Elementalist | Falche Graysong – Human Mesmer | Tarnished Coast
Ember Solace [SOL] – A guild welcoming of newbies and those at the margins.
New Player Outreach Thread

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Posted by: LittleLepton.8915

LittleLepton.8915

You guys are right, Im a horrorable teacher. Im speading toxic ways to new-comers.

I know now:

  • The only way to learn in guildwars PvE is zerkers ( all information learnt in other outfits should be thrown under a bus )
  • The only way to become better in guildwars PvE is zerkers ( personal rules / goals dont matter unless your in zerker )

Sarah, don’t listen to the elitist drivel that permeates this forum.

It honestly annoys me that people flip out so much about someone that, by choice, doesn’t wear zerker gear. Is it really that big of a deal that it took you two additional minutes to clear the dungeon? Seriously?

I mean, if you want to do speed clears with your guild or pre-made, that’s awesome, go for it. It’s probably a really fun goal to have. But please DO NOT try to constantly FORCE this elitist speed clear full zerker or GTFO crap on the rest of the player base.

If you join a PUG, you should expect just that…a pick up group of random players. And kicking one of those players because they could damage your precious speed clear time is a kitten move. I don’t care if it’s the norm (so sad), it’s still a kitten move.

And you know what, I’m not getting berserkers ever. I’m getting celestial…reason being that I want to WvW roam at some point and I think berserker for WvW roaming will get you killed real fast. Deal with it.

I just want to point out that she came to this conclusion after I very clearly stated that it was fine to tell newbies that they can wear whatever they like and still complete any dungeon. I then said that it is also a good teachers job to inform them of the alternatives, specifically, the most effective alternative. She, before these posts, had gotten increasingly toxic here, getting upset, starting arguments, etc. then she had a fit and decided to make a post to try and start drama.

Stop feeding into it.

Also, Let’s be clear that we are also sick of your elitist drivel too.

You don’t know me.

#LilithFan#1

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Posted by: Anierna.6918

Anierna.6918

@ Falunel: That bit about “Explaining the zerker meta” is good. It’s exactly what needs to be emphasized. The issue is that a great many people who write guides or make vids or teach others in some other way do NOT emphasize it, or even mention it.

Nobody likes to kick people. The guys doing the kicking don’t like it because they have to wait a little longer to find someone else. The people being kicked don’t like it because they’re missing out on something they want to do (in this case, dungeon speed clears). But this continues to happen because some people who want to join speedrun groups are ill-equipped to do so because they’ve been given bad information.

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Posted by: Creslin.1758

Creslin.1758

You guys are right, Im a horrorable teacher. Im speading toxic ways to new-comers.

I know now:

  • The only way to learn in guildwars PvE is zerkers ( all information learnt in other outfits should be thrown under a bus )
  • The only way to become better in guildwars PvE is zerkers ( personal rules / goals dont matter unless your in zerker )

Sarah, don’t listen to the elitist drivel that permeates this forum.

It honestly annoys me that people flip out so much about someone that, by choice, doesn’t wear zerker gear. Is it really that big of a deal that it took you two additional minutes to clear the dungeon? Seriously?

I mean, if you want to do speed clears with your guild or pre-made, that’s awesome, go for it. It’s probably a really fun goal to have. But please DO NOT try to constantly FORCE this elitist speed clear full zerker or GTFO crap on the rest of the player base.

If you join a PUG, you should expect just that…a pick up group of random players. And kicking one of those players because they could damage your precious speed clear time is a kitten move. I don’t care if it’s the norm (so sad), it’s still a kitten move.

And you know what, I’m not getting berserkers ever. I’m getting celestial…reason being that I want to WvW roam at some point and I think berserker for WvW roaming will get you killed real fast. Deal with it.

I just want to point out that she came to this conclusion after I very clearly stated that it was fine to tell newbies that they can wear whatever they like and still complete any dungeon. I then said that it is also a good teachers job to inform them of the alternatives, specifically, the most effective alternative. She, before these posts, had gotten increasingly toxic here, getting upset, starting arguments, etc. then she had a fit and decided to make a post to try and start drama.

Stop feeding into it.

Also, Let’s be clear that we are also sick of your elitist drivel too.

My elitist drivel being that I think people should enjoy the game and not treat it like an accounting problem?

Look, I don’t know man. Before I came back to GW2 I played a lot of DOTA2…and people on that game are insanely elitist. But at least there, I can kind of see why…if you get a bad player, your entire team will actually LOSE. And it’s a competitive game.

GW2 PvE though? A sub-optimal player costs you what…a few more minutes? I just don’t see why people get up in arms about this.

Like, if a bad player in GW2 would make it so you actually FAIL the dungeon and get nothing, I could see people getting upset. But this just seems like elitism for the sake of elitism.

Magaera Enflanza (F Human D/D Ele)
[Envy], [Moon]

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Posted by: maxinion.8396

maxinion.8396

I’m just going to laugh at the picture again. What a great flow chart!

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Posted by: Lilith Ajit.6173

Lilith Ajit.6173

It isn’t just a few minutes. It can literally waste hours. That’s failing a dungeon to me. Because I don’t have that kind of time like little kids do. But whatever bro. I’m just going to go do dungeons. Bye now enjoy your PvF.

[ARES]
And all who stood by and did nothing, who are they to criticize the sacrifices of others?
Our blood has bought their lives.

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Posted by: Anierna.6918

Anierna.6918

Look, I don’t know man. Before I came back to GW2 I played a lot of DOTA2…and people on that game are insanely elitist. But at least there, I can kind of see why…if you get a bad player, your entire team will actually LOSE. And it’s a competitive game.

GW2 PvE though? A sub-optimal player costs you what…a few more minutes? I just don’t see why people get up in arms about this.

Like, if a bad player in GW2 would make it so you actually FAIL the dungeon and get nothing, I could see people getting upset. But this just seems like elitism for the sake of elitism.

Time is money. Wasting a few extra mins in EACH dungeon when you’re doing 20+ dungeon paths per night adds up to a significant amount of time. We’re not talking minutes here; we’re talking hours each day. The vast majority of people who do PvE would like to finish their paths in a shorter amount of time so they can have more time for playing some other aspect of GW2 (PvP/WvW), or so they can go do RL stuff.

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Posted by: Gillian.1859

Gillian.1859

I just want to say I love your flowchart and I would like to post it on my guild’s website. Credit will be given to you of course

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Posted by: Iris Ng.9845

Iris Ng.9845

Since I started a couple of teaching runs with the mentors in the Teachers thread, I would like to chime in some thoughts, as a student.

  • There are teachers who follow meta builds and there are those who don’t, but all of them whom I have taken lessons from are generally comfortable with whatever skill sets students bring in.
  • However, there are limits of what can be learnt if teachers and students don’t share the same playstyle and experience. For example, I play Fractals more than 150 times, I still die like a grub because I don’t know how to counter Bloomhunger. A teacher with full Celestials cannot teach me how to mitigate damage if he never experiences a one-shot kill. On the other hand, if I am a casual player who prefers to range Lupi because it’s safe for me, I will harm those who can melee him and in order to move on to the phase where I can melee Lupi, I have to follow meta.
  • I know there are PUGs like me, not belonging to any dungeon guilds, but love to do speedclear and always hone our skills if we ever get into a speedclear group. We always look out for the new tactics, new builds, and the mentors who can teach advanced level knowledge. We get disappointed too, if we’re forever stuck with bad players who use bad skills and have bad builds. I admit that today I gathered all my courage to join a couple of “zerker/scholar, level 80, gear check” LFG. They all went even better than a daily guild run. All it takes are like-minded people doing the same meta for quick and efficient results.
  • That said, all the meta teachers are extremely courteous and straightforward with their opinions. They have great patience and they are nothing like the elitists you are picturing them as.

tl; dr: I defend meta. It’s brilliant and effective, even for PUGs. I believe that people who follow meta wants everyone else has access to its magic. They aren’t the evil elitists, they just want to look for more like minded people. Sadly, their good intention often get lost in communication :p

“Raids are like fortune cookies. You eat the cookie and then read the paper scraps.”

- doranduck, 2016 on Lore in Raids

(edited by Iris Ng.9845)

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Posted by: Iris Ng.9845

Iris Ng.9845

I call it bull. No one would teach a student speed run if they have no idea how capable the student is. My first lesson of meta (Arah p4), I was given advices on traits, rotations, utility skills, consumables. I was told to stack in what corners, what to expect, what skills to use in what situations. They are all in a very clear manner.

What I have learnt in a speedrun is no longer how to do a rotation, but what is the most efficient way to clear a dungeon.

Back to your metaphor, the calculator is meta and speedclear is a quadratic equation. Yes, you can solve a quadratic equation without the calculator, given you already know the basic math. But why is the calculator necessary? Because I can use it to finish many equations with the time you spend on one manually. The question is, as the student takes on a more challenging course (for example, Advanced Analytical Chemistry) would you give that student the preferable tool (calculator), or tell them they can just use an abacus instead?

“Raids are like fortune cookies. You eat the cookie and then read the paper scraps.”

- doranduck, 2016 on Lore in Raids

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Posted by: Falunel.7645

Falunel.7645

I call it bull. No one would teach a student speed run if they have no idea how capable the student is. My first lesson of meta (Arah p4), I was given advices on traits, rotations, utility skills, consumables. I was told to stack in what corners, what to expect, what skills to use in what situations. They are all in a very clear manner.

Can you elaborate on the bolded bit? When I say “traditional, then speedrun,” I mean it in regards to teaching students who are brand new or practically new (e.g. have only ever done AC story) to dungeons. If the student’s darn good at combat already and says, “I think I’m fine without learning the traditional method, just teach me the speedrun,” then by all means do so.

Teaching the traditional method isn’t about efficiency. As I said, it’s inarguable that a calculator is faster than mental math. It’s basically about getting students used to situations that require split-second thinking, like “oh no, I’m out of stamina and Kholer’s starting his windup, what do I do?” The goal is to transform the reaction from “panic!” to “I’ll stunbreak from his pull or use a reflect/block/invuln,” and then have that reaction carry over to novel situations. Adaptability and fast thinking are hallmarks of a good action gamer.

Now, here are the main concerns with traditional->speedrun:

-Time. Usually, you won’t get students to stick around for two runs, so if you’re going traditional->speedrun, you would have to do a traditional run while explaining how the strategy would be different in a speedrun. From my experience, if you can do a traditional run proficiently and are geared/built right, it shouldn’t be too hard for you to transition to a speedrun’s strategies- still, there’s a difference between hearing about something and experiencing it.
-The method’s effectiveness depends a lot upon the student. There will be people who will struggle to improve or improve very slowly over multiple traditional runs. In their cases, if they’re frustrated and just want to know speedrun methods, skip the frustration and go straight to speedruns.
-Upper-level dungeons. This is where your Advanced Analytical Chemistry comes in. I’m pretty sure that if you can speedrun Fractal level 49, you’ll be fine with -not- learning how to do CM story traditionally. Traditional->speedrun is more about teaching completely new people who don’t have a foundation.

Falunel – Sylvari Elementalist | Falche Graysong – Human Mesmer | Tarnished Coast
Ember Solace [SOL] – A guild welcoming of newbies and those at the margins.
New Player Outreach Thread

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Posted by: Iris Ng.9845

Iris Ng.9845

My understanding of your post is that you assume every teachers who promote meta only teach their students the way of speedrun. I say speedrun requires a lot of individual skills as well as tactics, that no teachers would do it if they think their students are not capable. The way you think how teaching dungeons should be is exactly the same teaching I have experienced. Except:

  • The teachers don’t encourage me to use a PVT gear so that I can avoid being 1-shot. They encourage me to watch out for the boss tell, learn the animation and the rhythm so that I can dodge actively. And they are there to revive me if I fail.
  • The teachers don’t kill the mobs for me, they want me to contribute to the kill. And I learn that by bringing more damage, it helps more than trying to get a perfect rotation every time.
  • In a traditional teaching, we avoid ranging the boss knowing it would trigger pretty nasty skills.
  • In a traditional teaching, we discuss every tactics which could be used in a speedclear and also how to fix the error if we mess it up.

I believe that if a person struggle to improve over multiple traditional runs, there are no ways that person can accomplish tasks in a speedrun.
A speedrun requires everyone knows their professions and the dungeon perfectly. Good timing and good execution are also expected.

Upper-level dungeons, I don’t think you understand my metaphor. What I was trying to say is you need to use meta (calculator) for the high-level dungeons (Advanced Analytical Chemistry) and don’t expect to use your traditional way in CM story (abacus) to finish them in a reasonable amount of time. And I have done both. That’s why I advocate to teaching the meta is always the better option.

As always, it is the students’ choices to follow what has been taught, but by teaching them what is best, we have more A students than C-D-F students.

Hope it is clearer to you.

Edit: If one can use the calculator to do every advanced equations, i also think they can learn the abacus pretty fast.

“Raids are like fortune cookies. You eat the cookie and then read the paper scraps.”

- doranduck, 2016 on Lore in Raids

(edited by Iris Ng.9845)

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Posted by: LittleLepton.8915

LittleLepton.8915

Fabulous post, Iris. Very refreshing!

You don’t know me.

#LilithFan#1

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Posted by: Iris Ng.9845

Iris Ng.9845

I think those who teach irl understand each other

“Raids are like fortune cookies. You eat the cookie and then read the paper scraps.”

- doranduck, 2016 on Lore in Raids

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Posted by: LittleLepton.8915

LittleLepton.8915

So I think my issue with the calculator thing is this. As a math teacher, ans physics, I’d never want someone to be handed a calculator right away. But my thought is, giving the calculator, a way to get an easy answer without seeing your mistake is definitely more comparable to tank armor than berserker. Berserker armor is doing trigonometric substitution integrals, you will make mistakes while first doing it, and pvt is doing trig subintegrals with wolfram alpha. No chance that you will fail.

You don’t know me.

#LilithFan#1

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Posted by: notabot.3497

notabot.3497

PVT is like getting to used to training wheels, some people end up too afraid to take them off. Zerkers is like learning how to ride without training wheels. Yeah, you will fall, but if you are with others they will help pick you up. The pain of falling will make you learn faster.

None of the kids in the neighborhood are going to want to ride with the wimp with the training wheels.

Me, I learned with ONE training wheel, that was barely bolted on so i would fall if I leaned on it too hard. In game that is a dps set that has some defense like knights. Its a good alternative to just face-planting right out of the gate. Once i got comfortable with the build (which was much faster than if i started with facetanking) I just salvaged the entire thing and replaced with zerkers.

IMHO its a better metaphor than the calculator.

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Posted by: maxinion.8396

maxinion.8396

Wolfram Alpha/ Mathematica is faster than by hand

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Posted by: Anierna.6918

Anierna.6918

Wolfram Alpha/ Mathematica is faster than by hand

Totally. Mathematica’s a godsend

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Posted by: Bumbler.7581

Bumbler.7581

<3 Mathematica. So useful.

In Chancery (Jade Quarry, NA) – The Instance Mesmer
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Posted by: Iris Ng.9845

Iris Ng.9845

I hate Maths. Let’s speak Chemistry. Then I’ll show you a whole new world ;D

“Raids are like fortune cookies. You eat the cookie and then read the paper scraps.”

- doranduck, 2016 on Lore in Raids

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Posted by: Enaretos.8079

Enaretos.8079

I hate Maths. Let’s speak Chemistry. Then I’ll show you a whole new world ;D

Why am I all alone with my economics and philosophy ? :s

Snow Crows member since January 2014
My Twitch

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Posted by: The Mexican Cookie.3690

The Mexican Cookie.3690

I hate Maths. Let’s speak Chemistry. Then I’ll show you a whole new world ;D

Why am I all alone with my economics and philosophy ? :s

Because philosophy is useless

#LoveArrows2013, never forget.

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Posted by: xsquared.1926

xsquared.1926

Oh be sure to NOT wear clerics as an ele. ArenaNet doesn’t like it when you do that.

Master Ruseman. Lv80 Mesmer 10/20/0/25/15
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Posted by: DigitalKirin.9714

DigitalKirin.9714

I think those who teach irl understand each other

+1 Teachers unite.

Genevieve Talbot [NP] – Noble Phantasm on Stormbluff Isle

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Posted by: DigitalKirin.9714

DigitalKirin.9714

My elitist drivel being that I think people should enjoy the game and not treat it like an accounting problem?

What if people have fun doing math and optimizing things “like an accounting problem”? They should be allowed to have their fun as much as you’re allowed to have yours.

I think what’s funny is that time and time again, people have offered solutions for this: “Make your own party with your own requirements.” It seems strange that this answer isn’t satisfactory to people. People aren’t willing to live and let live…

Genevieve Talbot [NP] – Noble Phantasm on Stormbluff Isle

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Posted by: maxinion.8396

maxinion.8396

Physical scientists represent, woo woo

Sorry Enaretos! I guess you can mine the TP with your econ skillz.

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Posted by: Enaretos.8079

Enaretos.8079

Physical scientists represent, woo woo

Sorry Enaretos! I guess you can mine the TP with your econ skillz.

It’s not even funny to actually, because anyone can do it easily :s

And I did study math for like 5 years before switching to economics

Snow Crows member since January 2014
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Posted by: LittleLepton.8915

LittleLepton.8915

Physical scientists represent, woo .

Woooooot!

Also, yes, I get that time wise wolfram alpha is faster. My analogy was more concerning the idea of learning how and mastering something. You learn quicker when you work it out!

You don’t know me.

#LilithFan#1

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Posted by: Creslin.1758

Creslin.1758

My elitist drivel being that I think people should enjoy the game and not treat it like an accounting problem?

What if people have fun doing math and optimizing things “like an accounting problem”? They should be allowed to have their fun as much as you’re allowed to have yours.

I think what’s funny is that time and time again, people have offered solutions for this: “Make your own party with your own requirements.” It seems strange that this answer isn’t satisfactory to people. People aren’t willing to live and let live…

The issue is that everyone wants their view to be “the norm” and any other views to be forced to create their own party and play away from the general population.

For example, there are several posts here that flat out state that the “point” of PvE is to complete it as fast as possible. And if you don’t go full zerker, you are essentially doing it wrong. These people will happily tell anyone that disagrees with them that they can form their own party and play in a bubble, but it’s pretty clear that they assume “speed run or GTFO” to be the cultural norm of the game, and anyone that disagrees has to form their own group.

And you will encounter this constantly in game with people that criticize others because of their build, or complain that you aren’t using the exact optimal skills. But what I think these players don’t get is that maybe the “sub-optimal” player doesn’t have the same goal as them. Maybe they are doing PvE to enjoy an experience, and not to burn through it as fast as humanly possible.

So I think you have to consider what philosophy is best suited to be the norm for the game. Personally, I think the “PvE for fun” philosophy should be the norm for a few good reasons.

1. PvE for fun is not hostile to new players, speed running is.

2. Speed running requires a lot of specialized knowledge and gear, so it’s not really fair to speed runners to expect the majority of players to conform to their view.

3. If a player wants to be a hardcore speed runner, they have to get equipment that will suck in WvW roaming…so you really have to commit to dungeons only which I think is a lot to ask.

So I am not arguing that my “PvE for fun” view is “better,” I’m arguing that it is a better cultural norm for the game.

Magaera Enflanza (F Human D/D Ele)
[Envy], [Moon]

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Posted by: Bumbler.7581

Bumbler.7581

@OP:

Thank you for this flow chart, it is hilarious. Every time a PuG picks up my lightning hammer I shout at the screen that they are not Chris Hemsworth from Thor!

I’ve actually had to start stating at the beginning of every run now to not pick up my hammer…though it usually does no good.

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Posted by: Dog.1472

Dog.1472

Oh my god what happened in this thread. Why are there still so many people trying to argue against doing their best to play as well as they can? It’s incomprehensible. The argument that it’s okay for one person to make everyone else’s time less enjoyable because they don’t want to make any effort to carry their own weight is ridiculous.

I think GW2 is the only MMO community I’ve ever seen where so many people carry the idea that playing poorly is acceptable because of the excuse that “oh it’s fun”. It’s absurd.

People that try to play as well and as efficiently as they can are going to expect others to at least try and give the same effort. They will think less of those who don’t. If you cannot accept that then please move on. You will never convert these people to the point of view where no one has to make any effort to play well.

“Please, you can look down on people without having to be physically above them.
As an asura, I do this all the time.”

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Posted by: rainynoble.6531

rainynoble.6531

Oh my god what happened in this thread. Why are there still so many people trying to argue against doing their best to play as well as they can? It’s incomprehensible. The argument that it’s okay for one person to make everyone else’s time less enjoyable because they don’t want to make any effort to carry their own weight is ridiculous.

I think GW2 is the only MMO community I’ve ever seen where so many people carry the idea that playing poorly is acceptable because of the excuse that “oh it’s fun”. It’s absurd.

People that try to play as well and as efficiently as they can are going to expect others to at least try and give the same effort. They will think less of those who don’t. If you cannot accept that then please move on. You will never convert these people to the point of view where no one has to make any effort to play well.

x10

I miss the old days without the in-game LFG tool where people have to copy and paste the name from external site. now some people are spoiled to the point that they ignore the description and wish to be carried by others.

i have no problem taking things slow when i am taking break from dungeon running (10 paths+ per day). but insist on joining my speed run group and expect us to respect your play choice is just absurd. that included some weird trait choices that gives minimal output of direct dps (conditions, full bunker etc)

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Posted by: Fror.2163

Fror.2163

The diagram is flawed.

You say “does your class have a teleport?”

Well, I main a guardian and yes my class has a teleport. Even 3. Yet none of them equipped when I have a FGS in hand. But good! I can use the FGS anyways!

Therefore your diagram should state: “do you have a teleport utility skill equipped?”

Frór (yes, with the accent!)

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Posted by: DigitalKirin.9714

DigitalKirin.9714

Guardians have utility teleports… I dunno if they’ll work the same way, but you’ve got merciful intervention and judge’s intervention.

Genevieve Talbot [NP] – Noble Phantasm on Stormbluff Isle