Guild Wars 2

…When we were making this change, we looked at the events and encounters where our data showed players being encouraged to res-rush and re-balanced them to allow for the safe removal of res-rushing.

I guess I was right… What happened to the part where you asked the community why they rez rushed?
:(

I’m thinking the rest will be the same way. Obviously, the rest of the stages are pre-planned, so any feedback from the forums will most likely be placed aside.

I’m look forward to the next stage announcements with worry and excitement.

You realize that there were a LOT of users who posted in favor of the changes, right?

People seriously need to stop talking about “forum feedback” as a monolithic being with a single opinion. It isn’t. Even in the forums you have a lot of dissenting opinions, and I’m sure the dev team looks at the entire spectrum carefully.

Ursan.7846:

You realize that there were a LOT of users who posted in favor of the changes, right?

People seriously need to stop talking about “forum feedback” as a monolithic being with a single opinion. It isn’t. Even in the forums you have a lot of dissenting opinions, and I’m sure the dev team looks at the entire spectrum carefully.

Those users either haven’t tried some of the dungeons yet with pugs or got lucky in their runs and took that as their general conclusion of how things are.

I guarantee 90% of those same people will come back within a week screaming and whining in this forum.

DeathPanel.8362:

Those users either haven’t tried some of the dungeons yet with pugs or got lucky in their runs and took that as their general conclusion of how things are.

I guarantee 90% of those same people will come back within a week screaming and whining in this forum.

You miss my point. Everyone has different experiences. That leads to differing and conflicting feedback to the same topic. Just because Anet made changes to appease one side and anger the other, you can’t accuse them of “putting aside forum feedback.” Because there is no such thing as a unified, completely-in-agreement-with-each-other “forum feedback.”

Ursan.7846:

DeathPanel.8362:

Those users either haven’t tried some of the dungeons yet with pugs or got lucky in their runs and took that as their general conclusion of how things are.

I guarantee 90% of those same people will come back within a week screaming and whining in this forum.

You miss my point. Everyone has different experiences. That leads to differing and conflicting feedback to the same topic. Just because Anet made changes to appease one side and anger the other, you can’t accuse them of “putting aside forum feedback.” Because there is no such thing as a unified, completely-in-agreement-with-each-other “forum feedback.”

The point is to make the game more accessible in order to have a broad player base. That’s a key part of a mmo’s success.

This change does nothing but make the experience harder, not easier and this is a fact.

You may argue over the merits of the difficulty increase but my point is this will just ailenate more casual players and make team setups alot more restrictive and discourage pug play.

DeathPanel.8362:

You may argue over the merits of the difficulty increase but my point is this will just ailenate more casual players and make team setups alot more restrictive and discourage pug play.

Do keep in mind that this change isn’t the whole of all changes. The need for a Janurary patch combined with all the things that had to be done I suppose is why this incomplete state is the result. A quote I just fetched for a different topic but still relevant here:

Robert Hrouda.1327:

I do intend on putting more waypoints into dungeons, but due to the work required for this upcoming patch we didn’t get enough time to make it happen.
I’m not a fan of “punishment running” wherein your punishment for failing is having to run a long distance back to the fight. To discourage res rushing potential we went initially with fewer waypoints. Now that we are implementing a new tech, I would like to add more to reduce the time spent running back to an objective.
We have more info coming soon to how the system will be working.

DeathPanel.8362:

The point is to make the game more accessible in order to have a broad player base. That’s a key part of a mmo’s success.

This change does nothing but make the experience harder, not easier and this is a fact.

You may argue over the merits of the difficulty increase but my point is this will just ailenate more casual players and make team setups alot more restrictive and discourage pug play.

….

Again, you miss my point completely. I’m going to try one more time.

Although I am in agreement with Anet removing WPs, that is not the point I’m trying to make . That is a different topic which I’m not really interested in arguing since no amount of text is likely to change our convictions.

The OP accuses Anet of “any feedback from the forums will most likely be placed aside.” Implying Anet completely ignored forum feedback in implementing these dungeon changes. Which obviously isn’t true, because there’s feedback arguing for both sides. So accusing Anet of “not listening to feedback” and acting like forum feedback is completely one-sided simply because Anet did something the OP personally disagrees with is…Silly.

DeathPanel.8362:

Ursan.7846:

DeathPanel.8362:

Those users either haven’t tried some of the dungeons yet with pugs or got lucky in their runs and took that as their general conclusion of how things are.

I guarantee 90% of those same people will come back within a week screaming and whining in this forum.

You miss my point. Everyone has different experiences. That leads to differing and conflicting feedback to the same topic. Just because Anet made changes to appease one side and anger the other, you can’t accuse them of “putting aside forum feedback.” Because there is no such thing as a unified, completely-in-agreement-with-each-other “forum feedback.”

The point is to make the game more accessible in order to have a broad player base. That’s a key part of a mmo’s success.

This change does nothing but make the experience harder, not easier and this is a fact.

You may argue over the merits of the difficulty increase but my point is this will just ailenate more casual players and make team setups alot more restrictive and discourage pug play.

No, it’s not a fact. That’s a (malformed) opinion that you happen to hold, and have arbitrarily decided everyone agrees with. The fact of the matter is not everyone agrees with you and many people disagree with you for very good reasons.

Res-rushing is not a legitimate tactic. It did not exist to make things “easier.” In fact, ultimately it makes things more difficult at players become acclimated to the idea that it’s intended. CoF p2 had an encounter that people had come to the conclusion could only be completed via res-rushing. That mentality reached the point where it was impossible to find a pug that actually attempted the fight. The encounter was clearly broken, and has been adjusted to reflect that. What res-rushing ultimately does is prevent broken or too difficult encounters from being fixed. CoF p1 had another encounter which was too difficult, but because of the design (excessive regeneration), res-rushing was not a working tactic for the fight. Because there wasn’t a broken workaround, the excessive difficulty came to Anet’s attention and the encounter was reworked to resolve the issue.

Res-rushing was a crutch that did not reduce the difficulty and cause dungeons to become more “casual friendly.” In fact, it likely drove many casual players away from dungeons as the first difficult encounter was met with a mentality that they should constantly run back from a waypoint and repeatedly sustain armor damage. With res-rushing removed, players will have to rework their strategies or group structure to overcome dungeons, which is a far more rewarding experience, and will help players learn how to be better, rather than just giving them an option to “pay to win” via armor repairs.

nethykins.7986:

…When we were making this change, we looked at the events and encounters where our data showed players being encouraged to res-rush and re-balanced them to allow for the safe removal of res-rushing.

I guess I was right… What happened to the part where you asked the community why they rez rushed?
:(

I’m thinking the rest will be the same way. Obviously, the rest of the stages are pre-planned, so any feedback from the forums will most likely be placed aside.

I’m look forward to the next stage announcements with worry and excitement.

I go off in a tangent and it’s definitely a TL;DR post, but you can read in detail why I think you can see they didn’t just use data in a vacuum to make these changes and decisions.

My full reasoning is here:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Say-Goodbye-to-Pugs/first#post1313587

The summary is that my experience shows res rushing for multiple encounters, some were changed and others weren’t. I can see contextual reasons unique to each encounter that justify why one was changed and another was left the same. Have a think about the encounters that are commonly res rushed and think about the ones that did get alterations, how do they differ in difficulty and access?

Tera GX.8149:

Do keep in mind that this change isn’t the whole of all changes. The need for a Janurary patch combined with all the things that had to be done I suppose is why this incomplete state is the result. A quote I just fetched for a different topic but still relevant here:

I read the whole of that post. And I am not encouraged since it implied that the difficulty level might even be raised further.

The fact is, the success of a MMO lies in accessibility not in how “challenging and fun” it is.

What one person finds challenging may make it unbearable for someone else.

I have 8 level 80s, half of which are fully end game geared, and all crafting maxed, and commander buff.

If I were playing with a full team of clones of myself, I’d have no problems with this patch at all.

The problem is, YOU NEED OTHER PEOPLE when running dungeons, and statistically EVERY pug team has 1-2 players who either don’t know what to do or are just bad players in general.

This change not only punishes those types of people but indirectly punishes their teammates.

Pug teams ragequite/disband over team wipes, and all this patch does is make it more likely, which ends up wasting time for people like me, who have to find a new team and risk the same cycle happening again.

Dungeons are meant to be hard. If you have people in your group who can’t play, that’s bad luck – then play with people from your or another guild.

PS: I still think there should be three paths with ascending difference for each dungeon, as well as for jumping puzzles. With scaling rewards of course.

Iruwen.3164:

Dungeons are meant to be hard.

Maybe back in September, at least from a personal perspective.

If you have people in your group who can’t play, that’s bad luck – then play with people from your or another guild.

What this guy said.

PS: I still think there should be three paths with ascending difference for each dungeon, as well as for jumping puzzles. With scaling rewards of course.

Yes please. Make path 1 easymode faceroll, path 2 normal and path 3 ball-busting hard (in a good way) and scale the received tokens and dosh appropriately.

Why should dungeons be tuned to the lowest denominator? Ppl want endgame (hard content) and Arenanet makes dungeon to be hard. If you can’t pug then join a nice guild, find fun and good ppl to play with and enjoy the dungeons how they should be, WITHOUT stupid wp-zerging!

Iehova.9518:

Yes please. Make path 1 easymode faceroll, path 2 normal and path 3 ball-busting hard (in a good way) and scale the received tokens and dosh appropriately.

Frankly, when I first entered a dungeon, when I saw that there were 3 different paths, I thought that it was like you just said : p1 = easy, p2 = normal, and p3 = hard, and I have been very disappointed when I understood that it wasn’t the case.

Agaetis.4518:

Why should dungeons be tuned to the lowest denominator? Ppl want endgame (hard content) and Arenanet makes dungeon to be hard. If you can’t pug then join a nice guild, find fun and good ppl to play with and enjoy the dungeons how they should be, WITHOUT stupid wp-zerging!

there was no dung or path that needed wp-zerg. wp-zerg has been a crutch that has allowed players to not L2P and as a hole has made the average player worse as they never learn the fights or how to adjust build/skills. add in the mass exploits everyone uses and it makes it so no one has to get better.

This is now changed and people will need to L2P or not run dung anymore if they are not willing to learn.

this change has made skill and mechanics a factor as they should be. Now the change to down scale of players may still need some adjustment, but I didnt have any issues in the few exp I have done with it.

Tera GX.8149:

Do keep in mind that this change isn’t the whole of all changes. The need for a Janurary patch combined with all the things that had to be done I suppose is why this incomplete state is the result. A quote I just fetched for a different topic but still relevant here:

then kitten you change it when the rest is ready as well! this isn’t the first time we end up with a kitten change because they only a part was implemented and the final change is weeks if not months away. and then on one hand you hear about the “fast and rapid iterative development process” and actual, meaningful changes appear when? but what to expect from devs that after 8 years still have problems putting together patchnotes…

as for the whole metrics OP is talking about, we all know anet always uses common sense when interpreting these numbers, right? seems people forgot all the lovely changes after the COF2 exploits

Koga.7215:

This is now changed and people will need to L2P or not run dung anymore if they are not willing to learn.

ah, the l2p or gtfo argument. because that always works, right?

I’ve already lost 2 friends from this game because they thought (quoting one of them): “dungeoning in this game is just stupid WP zerging which shouldnt be possible in boss fights, as if the downed system and rezzing in combat is bad enough by itself”

And regarding the WP I do totally agree, and I am glad this change has come (regarding the downed/in-combat-rez the game was designed around it and would not work if it would be removed right now).

If forum feedback actually matters then please add my voice to those that are in favor of the elimination of res rushing. Great change keep up the good work.

Robert Hrouda.1327:

We have things planned, but are always open to feedback.

“Data” is a nebulous term. Part of that data is forum posts, part of it is personal experience in PUGs/groups, and other factors as well I won’t go into. I feel I know why people res-rush, and had a good sense through data where people were doing it. Using that info I made my changes.

We rez rush because it takes to kitten long to rez anyone!
It should be 3 seconds MAX to get a totally dead person back up and fighting, any longer and it is not FUN. People want to be int he action non-stop. That is the goal, anything that prevents that and punishes players is elitist/hardcore leaning design and will kill your playerbase.

This isn’t gw1 niche anymore, you stepped up to the bigger MMO maket now, you balance so the bad players can have fun. If the good players whine, make a hard mode for them the way fractals can be tuned harder and harder. Let thems mash their heads against the brick wall, the majority want fun.

Good change IMO. Dungeons are better without the Rez-rushing crutch.

The reason the release version is the real beta in every MMO is because of two things. First, people actually care more about their accomplishments in a live version over a test version of a game. Second, they will do ‘everything’ in their power to be efficient and this includes exploiting or even creatively bypassing intended mechanics.

This is also only phase 1 of the changes incoming.

From all the Alpha and Beta tests Ive been involved in, Metrics are by far greater than feedback. Ive been in tests where its become apparent that developers don’t even care about feedback.

“WP-rezzing” solution would be acceptable if they also removed the mob-skipping exploit.

Very good change. Highly support it. Dead actually means something now!

Great change. Allowing people to die their way through content does not create an incentive for good play or learning the ins and outs of their class. Without some sort of skill in the playerbase, it would be impossible to deploy challenging end-game content.

Not everyone is entitled to complete 100% of the content just by logging in.

Negrul.5423:

“WP-rezzing” solution would be acceptable if they also removed the mob-skipping exploit.

Skipping is not an issue. Kill the Champion Destroyer Crab and tell me you want to kill him again.

Iehova.9518:

Negrul.5423:

“WP-rezzing” solution would be acceptable if they also removed the mob-skipping exploit.

Skipping is not an issue. Kill the Champion Destroyer Crab and tell me you want to kill him again.

Does it try to pinch you to death like normal destroyer crabs?

Negrul.5423:

“WP-rezzing” solution would be acceptable if they also removed the mob-skipping exploit.

its not an exploit, the devs have said MANY times that it is an acceptable strategy. Their is risk in doing it and possible great reward (i.e. faster run). the risk is with a bad group who cant skip it may take longer, but then again, those who are not skilled enough to skip would likely die alot killing slowing you down.. so…

If you dont like skipping, get a guild that doesnt like to also and run with them, problem solved.

If there isn’t something better other than “developers said” to use as a valid argument, skipping enemies remains an exploit, just like “wp-rezzing” is one.

Negrul.5423:

If there isn’t something better other than “developers said” to use as a valid argument, skipping enemies remains an exploit, just like “wp-rezzing” is one.

Wait, so something that’s endorsed by the staff as a valid option is still an exploit?

So how’s that dodging exploit working out for you?

So you weren’t bothered at all by the “wp-rezzing” untill they changed it?