Guild Wars 2

It took us 4 hours and about 10 ragequits before we finally finished AC path 1 last night. It’s way too hard now.

TheMaskedParadigm.3629:

Welcome to Ascalon, the Citadel of Flame is this way.

Choose your path. Path 1-Path 1-Path1.

This game has to many people that ragequit in AC . I like how someone said I had tough luck in AC dungeon when luck is something of 50/50 chance this situation happened like 7 days in row more than 50/50 chance. This is where the entire group or certain members ragequited before I could finish the dungeon. I had to reinvite new people or just waste my time when my entire team quit. I think if anet wants to make this dungeon harder so people will ragequit, they should at least make it so you have to finish the dungeon and you can not leave so they do not waste my time. Like a lock or something intill you finish the dungeon so I do not after worry about finding new members or wasting time when team members or whole groups decides to quit the dungeon. I think they should lower difficulty by nerfing mobs or something so people do not ragequit and waste like 3 to 4 hours of my time. Honestly this dungeon was fine the way it used to be before the update and this was the only thing I liked about the game, but now since AC is dying , there is nothing else really fun to play in the game.

mesmer days.3289:

This game has to many people that ragequit in AC . I like how someone said I had tough luck in AC dungeon when luck is something of 50/50 chance this situation happened like 7 days in row more than 50/50 chance. This is where the entire group or certain members ragequited before I could finish the dungeon. I had to reinvite new people or just waste my time when my entire team quit. I think if anet wants to make this dungeon harder so people will ragequit, they should at least make it so you have to finish the dungeon and you can not leave so they do not waste my time. Like a lock or something intill you finish the dungeon so I do not after worry about finding new members or wasting time when team members or whole groups decides to quit the dungeon. I think they should lower difficulty by nerfing mobs or something so people do not ragequit and waste like 3 to 4 hours of my time. Honestly this dungeon was fine the way it used to be before the update and this was the only thing I liked about the game, but now since AC is dying , there is nothing else really fun to play in the game.

I completely agree. If you want to do AC sometime btw, hit me up.

It does not Help that the current AC is horribly glitched in every path, Extra Spawns, getting stuck in walls halfway through fights, even monster regeneration, its just unplayable

JDrover.9175:

It does not Help that the current AC is horribly glitched in every path, Extra Spawns, getting stuck in walls halfway through fights, even monster regeneration, its just unplayable

FPS lag fixed yet? I dont want to keep repeating others have said so many times in the other threads.

Honestly, areanet should set Ac entry lvl to 80 since its impossible for a grp of lvl 35s to clear it!

Rachel.1249:

Honestly, areanet should set Ac entry lvl to 80 since its impossible for a grp of lvl 35s to clear it!

A group of level 35s in Masterwork gear did this and live streamed it. Character level has nothing to do with it, it’s player experience.

Gear and levels will only take you so far, if you can’t learn the mechanics, dodge or work as a team then you will wipe repeatedly, Level 80 Full Exotics or not.

JDrover.9175:

It does not Help that the current AC is horribly glitched in every path, Extra Spawns, getting stuck in walls halfway through fights, even monster regeneration, its just unplayable

This. It’s sort of not an issue of the dungeon being “too hard” as it is it just being a bugged pile of slop.

Furthermore, I feel that not just AC, but most dungeons in general are dying given that most people by now are level 80 and are focused more on farming what is easiest rather than grinding dungeons for fashion, leveling or otherwise. AC just isn’t as appealing as CoF—nothing is. CoF has decent enemy health levels and isn’t buggy as the crow flies.

Swagg.9236:

JDrover.9175:

It does not Help that the current AC is horribly glitched in every path, Extra Spawns, getting stuck in walls halfway through fights, even monster regeneration, its just unplayable

This. It’s sort of not an issue of the dungeon being “too hard” as it is it just being a bugged pile of slop.

Furthermore, I feel that not just AC, but most dungeons in general are dying given that most people by now are level 80 and are focused more on farming what is easiest rather than grinding dungeons for fashion, leveling or otherwise. AC just isn’t as appealing as CoF—nothing is. CoF has decent enemy health levels and isn’t buggy as the crow flies.

The bugs certainly don’t help. I feel like one of the biggest and most noticeable improvements to AC was the hit point changes on mobs. Bosses and trash go down significantly faster, when you can hit them. However, things like Stalker evade, Troll CC spam, and Ghost Eater mechanic artificially length these fights. Kholer I still think is well done. The adds drop fast and Kholer’s goes down fast enough that you don’t get too sick of the fight in one go.

When comparing other dungeons to AC, the trash and bosses just seem so tedious. The Effigy in CoF stands out, but you could say this about pretty much every other dungeon in the game.

I haven’t run every single Explorable, but I’ve done all the Story modes except CoE. Iron Forgeman at the end of Story Mode Sorrow’s Embrace, and maybe the Golem fights just before, as well as Story Mode CoF stand out as being decent boss fights. The rest of the dungeon is hit point sponge after hit point sponge, but those fights at least feel like there is more to them than a tank n spank.

Well, I finished the AC runs I had planned for this week, to complete my Legendary weapon (which is now done and looks nice).

I enjoyed the new Spider Queen, and really liked the new versions of the P1 and P3 bosses. I did not enjoy the fact that the final encounter of P2 is bugged and doesn’t start correctly some of the time.

I especially didn’t like the persistent knockdowns in Graveling tunnels. I have two Stability skills and used them both, and it still wasn’t enough a couple of times. It felt like a cheap gank to make the dungeon a bit harder – the devs could (and should) probably have come up with something more imaginative.

Overall I’d give P1 and P3 7/10, and P2 5/10. Scores would increase if they change the knockdown (to 8/10 and 6/10) and debug the final P2 encounter (8/10 across the board).

Oh, and I skipped Kholer 80% of the time – scores go down if they make him mandatory. Right now he feels like an overpowered trash mob who takes up too much time for no particular reason.

Updating AC was a terrible decision, imo — at least in the way they did it. I used to run AC a lot and enjoyed it immensely, now I just don’t do it anymore, at all. Nobody else seems to do it anymore either, at least not in my guild, and only very few people on gw2lfg.

It was one out of two dungeons that people actually ran often and enjoyed. Now only one is left, CoF 1, and that one is far more “imbalanced”. Why, arenanet?

Finally did the new AC lol.
While our party managed to do it quite easy even without full lvl-80 party, I can see why people don’t do it anymore. It became faster, but boss fights require some experience and coordination.

While I’m ok with every dungeon having such a transformation, it can become a trouble for pugs.

Yes, makes perfect sense- starter/ low leveled dungeons now harder than higher leveled dungeons

seems logic enough.

Well, it’s a start of a long-term project to revamp dungeons. After it is done, AC might be again the easiest one of them all.

Chasind.3128:

Yes, makes perfect sense- starter/ low leveled dungeons now harder than higher leveled dungeons

seems logic enough.

Yea, I hear their goal was to revamp the first dungeon and then call it quits /sarcasm.

Awbee.8405:

Updating AC was a terrible decision, imo — at least in the way they did it. I used to run AC a lot and enjoyed it immensely, now I just don’t do it anymore, at all. Nobody else seems to do it anymore either, at least not in my guild, and only very few people on gw2lfg.

It was one out of two dungeons that people actually ran often and enjoyed. Now only one is left, CoF 1, and that one is far more “imbalanced”. Why, arenanet?

AC was run because it was easy to farm, just like CoF Path 1. The popularity of a dungeon is based on how farmable it is more so than the enjoyment it gives, sadly.

IamDuddits.1692:

AC was run because it was easy to farm, just like CoF Path 1. The popularity of a dungeon is based on how farmable it is more so than the enjoyment it gives, sadly.

This was inevitable. It’s one of the major issues facing any MMO; how do you keep people playing past the point where the shiny newness has worn off and all that’s left is repetition? While there are people who repeat content because it’s fun, repeating harder content for fun is only going to appeal to certain players. The rest will gravitate towards the best return on time for what they want.

I don’t really run it any-more because it went from the lazy afternoon “Hey guys we’re going to do a bit of AC” bit ‘o fun with guild mates where everyone is invited to a dungeon where it’s plain frustrating to play with anything less than 5 people who know what they were doing.
AC before had it’s place in my eyes as an easy dungeon for people who just want to lie back and enjoy some dungeon content. Now it’s too frustrating to bother with without a fully serious group. Also P1 added confusion to the King, and I loath that condition…

IndigoSundown.5419:

IamDuddits.1692:

AC was run because it was easy to farm, just like CoF Path 1. The popularity of a dungeon is based on how farmable it is more so than the enjoyment it gives, sadly.

This was inevitable. It’s one of the major issues facing any MMO; how do you keep people playing past the point where the shiny newness has worn off and all that’s left is repetition? While there are people who repeat content because it’s fun, repeating harder content for fun is only going to appeal to certain players. The rest will gravitate towards the best return on time for what they want.

I’m aware this is inevitable. My point is that people keep arguing that fewer people are running the dungeon because it’s too difficult,however, they fail to realize that fewer people are running the dungeon because it’s less farmable.

Farmers in MMOs are the most volatile part of the player base. As you put it, they will gravitate toward the easy money and materials and will stop running an instance/dungeon the minute it stops being profitable. Dungeons, in my opinion, should not be balanced or designed for their convenience and if the consequence of this is longer waits to get a party to run a particular dungeon then so be it.

Tyrannus Blade.3408:

Also P1 added confusion to the King, and I loath that condition…

He had confusion before too. Most people just died in 1 hit and couldn’t notice it.

The spider queen’s AOE poison needs to be nerfed. Reduced 25% in size and damage. If two areas overlap over my position I don’t even have a chance to get out before I’m down. It’s stupid. I have excellent dodging abilities and a good head for placement — which is more than sufficient for other battles in this and other dungeons — but it doesn’t seem to mean anything in this fight. When player skill doesn’t matter, why bother?

Provost.6210:

The spider queen’s AOE poison needs to be nerfed. Reduced 25% in size and damage. If two areas overlap over my position I don’t even have a chance to get out before I’m down. It’s stupid. I have excellent dodging abilities and a good head for placement — which is more than sufficient for other battles in this and other dungeons — but it doesn’t seem to mean anything in this fight. When player skill doesn’t matter, why bother?

I disagree. The damage is fine, the pattern is fine. What needs adjustment is the duration. The prior pattern should fade away as the next one is being spit, not linger so you have two sets.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Provost.6210:

The spider queen’s AOE poison needs to be nerfed. Reduced 25% in size and damage. If two areas overlap over my position I don’t even have a chance to get out before I’m down. It’s stupid. I have excellent dodging abilities and a good head for placement — which is more than sufficient for other battles in this and other dungeons — but it doesn’t seem to mean anything in this fight. When player skill doesn’t matter, why bother?

I disagree. The damage is fine, the pattern is fine. What needs adjustment is the duration. The prior pattern should fade away as the next one is being spit, not linger so you have two sets.

Exactly. The other problem is that generally the poison has enough time to drop you from full and prevent allies from reviving without dropping themselves. Maybe if the duration was 75% what it currently is? Also, I think if you all stack melee on her she doesn’t use the AoEs. I’ve solo’d her a few times and she never used it once I got up close and personal.

Some could argue that the spiderlings need some changes, but I think with proper focus and some projectile reflection/absorption, they are more than doable. They are only a problem if you ignore them.

As a side note, I’m pretty sure you can side step the projectiles from the spiderlings and avoid the hit.

IamDuddits.1692:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Provost.6210:

The spider queen’s AOE poison needs to be nerfed. Reduced 25% in size and damage. If two areas overlap over my position I don’t even have a chance to get out before I’m down. It’s stupid. I have excellent dodging abilities and a good head for placement — which is more than sufficient for other battles in this and other dungeons — but it doesn’t seem to mean anything in this fight. When player skill doesn’t matter, why bother?

I disagree. The damage is fine, the pattern is fine. What needs adjustment is the duration. The prior pattern should fade away as the next one is being spit, not linger so you have two sets.

Exactly. The other problem is that generally the poison has enough time to drop you from full and prevent allies from reviving without dropping themselves. Maybe if the duration was 75% what it currently is? Also, I think if you all stack melee on her she doesn’t use the AoEs. I’ve solo’d her a few times and she never used it once I got up close and personal.

Some could argue that the spiderlings need some changes, but I think with proper focus and some projectile reflection/absorption, they are more than doable. They are only a problem if you ignore them.

As a side note, I’m pretty sure you can side step the projectiles from the spiderlings and avoid the hit.

75% might do it, I haven’t actually timed the thing, just observed that it is up for a long time in comparison with most other AoE. It would certainly be a step in the right direction.

Yeah, teams with the right skills for the little spiders will do better than thos elacking the skills (or the skill to use them). I’ve also sidestepped the spit poison at sufficient range. The problem I’ve had with that is that there are so many of them, if you have the aggro of enough of them, there’s nowhere to sidestep. At that point a dodge or two, condition remove and hope your team is using the time you’ve bought them to advantage.

Dungeon haste. AC… no ty.

I think the new AC is restablizing not dying. I think ANet did it on purpose. They determined that the number of people who were running the dungeon was too high and they wanted to put a stop to it.

It’s similar to the nerf on salvaging dungeon gear to get ectos. On obvious side effect of this action is that people do not run dungeons as often.

[Edit: grammar, intelligibility]

The dungeon is tedious as all kitten. Most groups that I run with are just unable to manage with many wipes and rage quits, PUGs and guildies alike; newbies to the dungeon scene are instantly turned off from further dungeon exploits and finding groups is incredibly difficult during off hours. Overall this dungeon is just straight unpleasant and unwanted as it’s killing off the PvE aspect of this game.

AC was the go to spontaneous guild event because level used to not matter and it was a reasonably fast dungeon to run so it was very easy to catch the casual members and get them involved.

No different than any other dungeon until people learn the mechanics. There’s people that think Lupicus is impossible when he can be solo’d and groups have beaten him in about 1.5 min.

It’s all about learning your class, learning to play as a TEAM, and learning the dungeon/boss mechanics. Gear and trait choices matter too if you’re not as seasoned as others. Going full berserker on a dungeon you’ve never done before and on a class you barely know is a bad choice.

This is actually really easy to answer. I’ve pointed out the flaws in the dungeons in a few previous posts but ultimately it comes down to this:

X = number of people who ran dungeon before changes
Y = number of people running dungeon after changes

If X>Y then bad

Well, it’s beyond obvious that this is in fact the case. It doesn’t matter why.

A theme-park MMO like GW2 is all about people running the content of the game given to them by the designers (as opposed to sandbox MMO’s that give players the tools to make their own content). Given the massively higher amount of time needed to create content versus playing it through, theme park devs need to make content that their players WANT to play repeatedly (again, it doesn’t matter why they want to).

If people only run AC once or twice to figure out the mechanics, or worse, only attempt it once and then give up and never run it again, the dungeon is a failure. It means ANet put a lot of time and resources into content that occupied players for less time that it took to create. That’s fine for a non-MMO or non-persistent game whose business model is based on initial purchase of the content and whose expenses are limited to that initial creation of content. However, it’s harmful for a business which has ongoing expenses in content creation and is dependent on ongoing purchases to pay for the content, especially in a case like new AC where it actually seems to be driving customers away.

I know of dozens of players who point blank refuse refuse to do any dungeons after trying AC & CM, a few of those give up entirely on GW2 they had such a nightmarish experience in the first 2 dungeons…basically quit the game at level 30-40…they didn’t see the point in continueing…

Scale the dungeons in difficulty from easy(1st dungeon) to totally impossible(last dungeon), then everyone should be happy…

Has Anet ever stated they are against a tiered system? Why can’t there be a AC T1/T2/T3? Or any other instance.

Casuals would be able to do the content easier with a PUG and Hardcores would have their T3 instances. Of couse the higher the tier the bigger the rewards.

why would I do AC when I can do COF thats easy and good money. Im not wasting my time on something thats long and annoying and most of all dosen’t reward good money. I can get everything I want in COF tokens ectos from disechanting

Xavori.3768:

This is actually really easy to answer. I’ve pointed out the flaws in the dungeons in a few previous posts but ultimately it comes down to this:

X = number of people who ran dungeon before changes
Y = number of people running dungeon after changes

If X>Y then bad

This logic is so horribly flawed. Being more popular doesn’t mean it’s inherently better than something else. More people visit McDonald’s on a daily basis than 5 star restaurants therefore McDonald’s>5 Star restaurants. That’s what your logic is saying.

More factors go into whether something is good or bad than number of users.

monkeydluffy.7896:

why would I do AC when I can do COF thats easy and good money. Im not wasting my time on something thats long and annoying and most of all dosen’t reward good money. I can get everything I want in COF tokens ectos from disechanting

You wouldn’t do AC because you are farmer and go where ever the highest gold to time ratio is. And I’m sure when CoF gets nerfed you’ll replace it with a new farming spot because that’s what farmers do.

Well I’m new to the game, and this was my first dungeon tonight. Long story short I didn’t like it all. I come from other MMORPGs where I have always been a hardcore raider/dungeon runner, and I didn’t enjoy my experience in this dungeon at all. I am glad I came to the forums, and found this thread. After reading this thread I plan to run a few more dungeons before I decide how long I will remain playing this game.

IamDuddits.1692:

Xavori.3768:

This is actually really easy to answer. I’ve pointed out the flaws in the dungeons in a few previous posts but ultimately it comes down to this:

X = number of people who ran dungeon before changes
Y = number of people running dungeon after changes

If X>Y then bad

This logic is so horribly flawed. Being more popular doesn’t mean it’s inherently better than something else. More people visit McDonald’s on a daily basis than 5 star restaurants therefore McDonald’s>5 Star restaurants. That’s what your logic is saying.

More factors go into whether something is good or bad than number of users.

Wrong analogy. Better off comparing old Mcdonald’s vs new Mcdonald’s here.

I personally like the new AC, granted it’s been a while since I’ve done it, simply because there’s no need for me to do it anymore. The last time I’ve done the dungeon is was with two guildies and two pugs, three of us had never done the dungeon before. At first it went slower than I was used to with groups that did the dungeon before but after explaining, learning the tactics and mechanics of the bosses it started to go smoother. We managed to do all three paths with only two wipes in our party both because of the falling rocks in whichever path that is.

I do believe that for a lvl 35 group that’s doing this dungeon for the very first time it might be hell and nearly impossible to do, especially if this is a pug group.

PS: I just love the ghostbuster path with the oozes, first time I did it I had no idea what to do but once we got the hang of it, it was so easy and a fun thing to do.

Leo Paul.1659:

IamDuddits.1692:

Xavori.3768:

This is actually really easy to answer. I’ve pointed out the flaws in the dungeons in a few previous posts but ultimately it comes down to this:

X = number of people who ran dungeon before changes
Y = number of people running dungeon after changes

If X>Y then bad

This logic is so horribly flawed. Being more popular doesn’t mean it’s inherently better than something else. More people visit McDonald’s on a daily basis than 5 star restaurants therefore McDonald’s>5 Star restaurants. That’s what your logic is saying.

More factors go into whether something is good or bad than number of users.

Wrong analogy. Better off comparing old Mcdonald’s vs new Mcdonald’s here.

The comparison wasn’t meant to be: McDonald’s=old AC; 5 Star Restaurant=New AC. That’s not even remotely close. The point of the example was to show that the popularity of something doesn’t equate to being better, which his entire logic was implying.

I think they improved on some mechanics, but they still have a lot of bugs to fix and some really awful mechanics (Graveling Knockdowns and Troll).

IamDuddits.1692:

Leo Paul.1659:

IamDuddits.1692:

Xavori.3768:

This is actually really easy to answer. I’ve pointed out the flaws in the dungeons in a few previous posts but ultimately it comes down to this:

X = number of people who ran dungeon before changes
Y = number of people running dungeon after changes

If X>Y then bad

This logic is so horribly flawed. Being more popular doesn’t mean it’s inherently better than something else. More people visit McDonald’s on a daily basis than 5 star restaurants therefore McDonald’s>5 Star restaurants. That’s what your logic is saying.

More factors go into whether something is good or bad than number of users.

Wrong analogy. Better off comparing old Mcdonald’s vs new Mcdonald’s here.

The comparison wasn’t meant to be: McDonald’s=old AC; 5 Star Restaurant=New AC. That’s not even remotely close. The point of the example was to show that the popularity of something doesn’t equate to being better, which his entire logic was implying.

I think they improved on some mechanics, but they still have a lot of bugs to fix and some really awful mechanics (Graveling Knockdowns and Troll).

Popularity isn’t the issue here.. It’s more like “patrons/customer” than “fans”, like a restaurant (as per your analogy) modifying their menu. I get your point though.

AC RIP. period.

Doesn’t take too long to get a group for it usually, but you can sure see there are alot less people doing it. I think it’s a combination of added length of time to get it done, and new mechanics that people don’t want to have to face.

It’s still easy but I stopped doing it on a daily basis because it takes longer than it did before and I’d rather do HOTW/SE/Arah. by the same merit though, why do any of these dungeons atm when there is COF P1?

well for me, Cof is just too mind-numbingly boring for me to handle >_< But I’m sure that COF1, for some people, validates their reason for not touching AC anymore.

swiftpaw.6397:

Doesn’t take too long to get a group for it usually, but you can sure see there are alot less people doing it. I think it’s a combination of added length of time to get it done, and new mechanics that people don’t want to have to face.

It’s still easy but I stopped doing it on a daily basis because it takes longer than it did before and I’d rather do HOTW/SE/Arah. by the same merit though, why do any of these dungeons atm when there is COF P1?

well for me, Cof is just too mind-numbingly boring for me to handle >_< But I’m sure that COF1, for some people, validates their reason for not touching AC anymore.

It’s ok, when CoFs turn comes up to get hit with the revamp bat we can see a bunch of these posts for CoF as the Gold/Ecto farmers have to learn a new band wagon to hop on.

Just curious, but are SE/Arah full of hit point sponges like pre-patch AC and current CM? Interested in running some of the other explorable dungeons but I’m hoping to avoid a snooze fest due to enemies with tons of hp that don’t deal enough damage to be a threat.

IamDuddits,

Nowhere did I use the word “better” when explaining my reasoning. I think I used words like “business” and “expenses”. GW2 is a business, and their business is entertaining players. If your ‘update’ to existing entertainment is attracting fewer players, obviously it’s a failure. Better has nothing to do with that part.

Better can explain why it’s failing to attract more players tho…

Now, previously I mentioned better because I don’t think the new AC is better. Kholer was better before. Fixing Kholer by letting him spawn adds constantly doesn’t make that fight any better. It just provides additional incentive for groups to skip a boss fight they were already skipping. You want to make Kholer better for the first exploration mode dungeon, you do it by making him more forgiving. Instead of ‘miss dodgedeath" it should be "miss dodge50% of life gone". That’s a better fight for new players. They still have incentive to improve, but aren’t going to get frustrated and quit.

Spider Queen isn’t better either. I actually liked the Spider Queen fight before as she could kill players who didn’t make sure to clear the spiderlings first, or who didn’t pay attention and got caught. Now, non-tank builds who try to melee her WILL die. She’ll eventually catch them with no stun breakers and then hit her big channel attack, and down they go. Or, she’ll immobilize someone on one of those everlasting poison pools.

The final boss fights aren’t better either. I am rabidly opposed to being dependent on NPC’s for my success. If I’m playing a game, I want it to be about my skill and my strategy. I don’t want to fail because Grast decided to go all Charge of the Light Brigade on the big bad. I don’t want to fail because Hodgypoo keeps throwing fire circles at the back of the room instead of anywhere near where the adds are coming through.

Ghost Eater v2.0 is better than 1.0, but is still seriously tedious. Once you figure out the mechanics and get it going, you’re going to win. Cut the hitpoints in half, reduce the damage of the really big hit (no boss in a low level dungeon should be able to one-shot-kill any player no matter how fragile the build).

So no, new AC isn’t better. If it was better, it would also be more popular. It’s gone from being a great way to level up, make a bit of gold, and meet new people to a dungeon people only do when a guildie really wants to get their dungeon master title.

IamDuddits.1692:

Just curious, but are SE/Arah full of hit point sponges like pre-patch AC and current CM? Interested in running some of the other explorable dungeons but I’m hoping to avoid a snooze fest due to enemies with tons of hp that don’t deal enough damage to be a threat.

SE has some fun fights, including some of the non-boss stuff. The gauntlet fighting is a great example. You’re just plowing through enemies you can’t skip. The fight versus three champ golems each of which has a different attack mechanic is also a good fight just because trying to figure out how you’re going to keep them from ganging up. Do you try to pull one at a time, or do you try to lure two away while the rest of the party ganks the third.

Arah is all about learning the mechanics of the fights…well, the non-buggy fights anyway. The reason you see people able to solo Lupi isn’t because Lupi is an easy fight, it’s because if you play it right, and don’t make any mistakes, you can win. But it all comes down to you as the player getting it right.

Xavori.3768:

IamDuddits,

Nowhere did I use the word “better” when explaining my reasoning. I think I used words like “business” and “expenses”. GW2 is a business, and their business is entertaining players. If your ‘update’ to existing entertainment is attracting fewer players, obviously it’s a failure. Better has nothing to do with that part.

Better can explain why it’s failing to attract more players tho…

You didn’t use the word better, but I figured “X>Y = bad” meant that you are implying it was better before the changes.

Xavori.3768:

Now, previously I mentioned better because I don’t think the new AC is better. Kholer was better before. Fixing Kholer by letting him spawn adds constantly doesn’t make that fight any better. It just provides additional incentive for groups to skip a boss fight they were already skipping. You want to make Kholer better for the first exploration mode dungeon, you do it by making him more forgiving. Instead of ‘miss dodgedeath" it should be "miss dodge50% of life gone". That’s a better fight for new players. They still have incentive to improve, but aren’t going to get frustrated and quit.

I’ve already expressed my stance on the Kholer fight. We are on opposite ends of the spectrum on this one and will not agree on it.

Xavori.3768:

Spider Queen isn’t better either. I actually liked the Spider Queen fight before as she could kill players who didn’t make sure to clear the spiderlings first, or who didn’t pay attention and got caught. Now, non-tank builds who try to melee her WILL die. She’ll eventually catch them with no stun breakers and then hit her big channel attack, and down they go. Or, she’ll immobilize someone on one of those everlasting poison pools.

If you think that Queen Spider was great before when you could face tank her and stand in the AoEs for their full duration, then once again we are on opposite sides of the spectrum on what we think an introductory dungeon should be providing to new players: a platform for teaching new players how to improve their play.

The only change she needs is the AoEs need to linger for less time. It’s not uncommon for her to be un-meleeable (is that even a word?) because she has two sets of AoEs pretty much all around her.

Xavori.3768:

The final boss fights aren’t better either. I am rabidly opposed to being dependent on NPC’s for my success. If I’m playing a game, I want it to be about my skill and my strategy. I don’t want to fail because Grast decided to go all Charge of the Light Brigade on the big bad. I don’t want to fail because Hodgypoo keeps throwing fire circles at the back of the room instead of anywhere near where the adds are coming through.

I agree with both. Grast fight, bugs aside, could still be a better mechanic. At the same time it’s an introductory dungeon so anything more complicated might be too much, but I do like the idea of using a bubble to protect you rather than just relying on well timed rolls and boons. It’s unavoidable damage and I think that’s a strong point of the fight.

Hodgins could have better placement of the AoEs. That’s about it for this fight. I think the fight is fine and demonstrates a really basic dungeon mechanic to new players.

Xavori.3768:

Ghost Eater v2.0 is better than 1.0, but is still seriously tedious. Once you figure out the mechanics and get it going, you’re going to win. Cut the hitpoints in half, reduce the damage of the really big hit (no boss in a low level dungeon should be able to one-shot-kill any player no matter how fragile the build).

I agree on the hit points completely. His mechanic is very simple. A coordinated group with good DPS could have him down in 2 traps, but a group of lower levels with less than optimal gear could take longer, which is really unnecessary for how basic he is. 50% of what he has would do the trick, but even 75% would help a lot.

Xavori.3768:

So no, new AC isn’t better. If it was better, it would also be more popular. It’s gone from being a great way to level up, make a bit of gold, and meet new people to a dungeon people only do when a guildie really wants to get their dungeon master title.

The first part is subjective and the last part is flat out false. I find the dungeon to be an improvement, though not perfect, and a lot of people I’ve run it with (mostly pugs) have agreed. I’ve befriended a few people just from running AC. Maybe you just have bad luck with pugs.

Understand that people will farm dungeons until it’s not worth their time to farm it anymore. The people that left AC were farmers and I’d be willing to bet that if/when CoF gets revamped the same will happen there because that’s what farmers do. They are a volatile player base.

Story mode: face roll

Explorable:

Take a look at the Graveling Champion right after the spider. There is a clearly defined boss mechanic asking one player to conquer a 1on1 situation. More importantly though, if the player fails, the punishment is not death. I can’t stress enough of what sort of difference that makes for players new to the dungeon circuit. Compare and contrast that to Kholer who does not put one player at jeopardy, but instead the entire group. Failure to dodge him carries the penalty of being downed, pressure from the adds can quickly turn it into death and reduced group size.

Ascalon Catacombs might be a level 35 dungeon, it might be doable with level 35 characters, but most of the boss mechanics target the group of level 80 powergamers. It is a result of how unforgiving they have become. Very fast to down and kill a person, impossible to get back into the fight without resetting the encounter. The design is way too punitive for a first dungeon.

I found my non-powergaming friends do not have a problem with the gear requirements. They do not have a problem with the reaction window. They do not have a problem with the control input. The biggest issue is the reading speed and comprehension of any given situation. This will lead to guaranteed fails of player reaction checks. If the punishment is death, the game quickly turns “difficult”. Especially since the respawn mechanics then locks the weaker players out of participating again. This means it takes longer to build up an ability to correctly read and respond to a situation, because you do not encounter it as often, if you are just watching for other dudes finish the fight.

If I can get three of my more casual friends through the Dredge and the Grawl Fractal in one run and on their first attempt, but no longer through AC, it tells you all you need to know. AC may be a huge fanservice for the hardcore, but it is not a suitable introduction into coordinated teamplay.

KaTNiSs.2498:

Well I’m new to the game, and this was my first dungeon tonight. Long story short I didn’t like it all. I come from other MMORPGs where I have always been a hardcore raider/dungeon runner, and I didn’t enjoy my experience in this dungeon at all. I am glad I came to the forums, and found this thread. After reading this thread I plan to run a few more dungeons before I decide how long I will remain playing this game.

I think this is part of the problem here, many of us come from MMORPGs where you had to run dungeons over and over again. It was how you got the gear you needed to run the next set of dungeons. But that’s not how this game works, I Don’t think we’re meant to be running AC exp 7 times a day. The sooner everyone breaks out of their old MMO habits and preconceptions, the more enjoyable this game will be.

FourthVariety.5463:

Story mode: face roll

Explorable:

Take a look at the Graveling Champion right after the spider. There is a clearly defined boss mechanic asking one player to conquer a 1on1 situation. More importantly though, if the player fails, the punishment is not death. I can’t stress enough of what sort of difference that makes for players new to the dungeon circuit. Compare and contrast that to Kholer who does not put one player at jeopardy, but instead the entire group. Failure to dodge him carries the penalty of being downed, pressure from the adds can quickly turn it into death and reduced group size.

Ways to avoid Kholer’s infamous One-Hit-KO:

-Dodging
-Blocking
-Projectile Reflect/Absorb
-Stability
-Invulnerability
-Break Stun + Dodge + Condition Removal
-Interrupt (Very unlikely to happen in a pug, but worth adding)

Even if you can’t dodge, most Professions have Invulnerability, Stability, Block, Reflects, Condition Removal and/or Break Stun available to them by level 35. Are all of these options too difficult for new players to handle?

People have this delusion that introductory=easy. Introductory = learning the basics, and whether you want to admit it or not part of learning the basics is learning the tools your profession has for avoiding attacks and mitigating damage.

FourthVariety.5463:

Ascalon Catacombs might be a level 35 dungeon, it might be doable with level 35 characters, but most of the boss mechanics target the group of level 80 powergamers. It is a result of how unforgiving they have become. Very fast to down and kill a person, impossible to get back into the fight without resetting the encounter. The design is way too punitive for a first dungeon.

This is true for Queen Spider only. Everything else in the dungeon it is flat out false. Actually, the weaker adds that the patch added to Kholer make rallying during the fight a lot easier.

FourthVariety.5463:

I found my non-powergaming friends do not have a problem with the gear requirements. They do not have a problem with the reaction window. They do not have a problem with the control input. The biggest issue is the reading speed and comprehension of any given situation. This will lead to guaranteed fails of player reaction checks. If the punishment is death, the game quickly turns “difficult”. Especially since the respawn mechanics then locks the weaker players out of participating again. This means it takes longer to build up an ability to correctly read and respond to a situation, because you do not encounter it as often, if you are just watching for other dudes finish the fight.

“The biggest issue is the reading speed and comprehension of any given situation.” Please explain this cryptic statement to me.

The respawn mechanics are fine. The old mechanics that allowed corpse runs pretty much removed any meaning of boss mechanics.

FourthVariety.5463:

If I can get three of my more casual friends through the Dredge and the Grawl Fractal in one run and on their first attempt, but no longer through AC, it tells you all you need to know. AC may be a huge fanservice for the hardcore, but it is not a suitable introduction into coordinated teamplay.

You got three casuals through Fractals because Fractals aren’t even full dungeons. Comparing Fractals to AC (or any dungeon for that matter) tells you nothing.

Speaking of Dredge Fractal, are you aware that the bombs the end boss throws can pretty much one shot anyone shy of a Toughness/Vitality build? Same goes for Grawls Shaman’s AoEs in both phases.