It's not the zerker meta, it's might stacking

It's not the zerker meta, it's might stacking

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Posted by: Wuselknusel.4082

Wuselknusel.4082

bug……………………………

It's not the zerker meta, it's might stacking

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Posted by: Jerus.4350

Jerus.4350

@Rising, the problem is the passive nature of PS. It’s simply too much for too little. And as far as the DPS loss… well look at the new traits, unless the elite spec is just amazing we’re looking at a PS + DPS build meta, no more fast hands but who cares when you can just GS camp your way to victory.

There are surely many benefits to it that you’ve pointed out, but it still trivializes something that used to be one of the marks of good coordination.

I’m not sure how I’d change it, but to me it’s just one of the steps towards less skilled play. As I said above, my group was using it the day it came out because it fit so well into our “braindead meta” which we called that for a reason. We stopped using it because it just got boring.

I can certainly appreciate the desire for a more active rotation. I know that GS camping is boring for me and that weapon camping in general is something people dislike, so I made some points to ANet about that a bit ago and they’re trying to rework stuff to encourage the fast hands rotations we all enjoy with Warrior while still keeping things like PS as they are. It’s for this same reason that I’m pushing to keep Scepter builds relevant with ANet on Eles; I know some people prefer that kind of gameplay, and those builds should absolutely retain relevance.

I was thinking about it on my long car ride today. I just can’t help but feel that max stacks from PS is too much. Perhaps taking .5s off (or maybe the boon duration loss will be enough?) such that 25 stacks requires outside sources and can’t be maintained much at all. Right now it’s like 20-25 stacks pretty easily from a PS war with strength sigil, pretty much constant 25 from strength runes on top of that.

I just feel that ideal 25 stacks should require more than just PS faceroll play style. Most of the benefits you discussed would still be there with ~20 stacks sustained, but limiting it to that would mean that you have to do more and be more active. PS war could hit it with FGS but it’ll fall off. Ideally though I’d look at code and make it such that Might (and vuln and any capped boon/condi) only replaces a stack if it’s a greater duration than the stack it’s replacing, but that’d certainly mean a much larger strain on the system having to cycle through 25 stacks to find one it can replace… or not replace.

Either way, I already find warrior play style pretty boring even with fast hands swapping. I also am not a fan of staff Ele play style, while it’s an intricate start after that initial burst you’re basically done, so if they add more sustained fights… well it’ll just be kinda boring.

And I’m concerned with Guardian, I fully believe that they’ll have a fun GS+Mace/focus rotation, possibly even slipping Torch in there though likely not. But, I’m very curious how the Hammer builds will compare. If the braindead Meta (Hammer Guard + PS War + Staff Ele +2 others) becomes even more efficient… well, kitten man, easymode + consistency, it’ll just be disappointing that more active and intricate play won’t be rewarded to the level IMO it should be.

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Posted by: serenke.4806

serenke.4806

There is no problem with berserker gear, with might stacking, reflecting, dodging, condi cleansing. We just don’t get new instances so we are getting bored.

It's not the zerker meta, it's might stacking

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Posted by: Lord Kuru.3685

Lord Kuru.3685

There is no problem with berserker gear, with might stacking, reflecting, dodging, condi cleansing. We just don’t get new instances so we are getting bored.

This is precisely the problem.

It's not the zerker meta, it's might stacking

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Posted by: Harper.4173

Harper.4173

If more content was added to the game at a steady pace people wouldn’t be as burned out on the current one.

The dungeons in this game are quite challenging and interesting to do – at the very beginning. Once you run them hundreds of times it all goes away.

If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”

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Posted by: Jay.1085

Jay.1085

Personally I don’t see PS as horrible. What I hate is how mandatory it’s going to be after the LH and general non-staff ele builds nerf, giving you no other option than PS in longer fights. PS will also no longer suffer a personal dmg nerf after the trait changes, meaning you don’t sacrifice a lot for group support anymore.

As a side note, I will say that you shouldn’t be so sure that non-staff Ele builds will be gutted quite like the preview suggested. I’ve been working with them on this, and I think they’re going to dial back those nerfs to keep Scepter builds relevant. I’m pretty confident Ice Bow is still going to get the shaft (I’m trying hard to make sure it doesn’t get nerfed as bad as FGS was).

I understand icebow nerfs but not my lightning hammer. To none ele people, scepter ele hits like a soggy noodle.

(edited by Jay.1085)

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Posted by: Jay.1085

Jay.1085

There is no problem with berserker gear, with might stacking, reflecting, dodging, condi cleansing. We just don’t get new instances so we are getting bored.

This is precisely the problem.

DPS zerkers or what ever the young kids call it now is not the problem its the old player base that has memorized and truly mastered the game. It takes two or even one good party member to carry a bad pug in a dungeons not fractal (cliffside/dredge). Hopefully xpac delivers what we veterans need. Something new and refreshing. I’m willing to bet 1000 gold once xpac comes out some new scrub will demand a nerf because its to challenging.

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Posted by: ProtoGunner.4953

ProtoGunner.4953

kitten stop repeating the same old tpics every single week…

‘would have/would’ve been’ —> correct
‘would of been’ —> wrong

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Posted by: Rising Dusk.2408

Rising Dusk.2408

I was thinking about it on my long car ride today. I just can’t help but feel that max stacks from PS is too much. Perhaps taking .5s off (or maybe the boon duration loss will be enough?) such that 25 stacks requires outside sources and can’t be maintained much at all. Right now it’s like 20-25 stacks pretty easily from a PS war with strength sigil, pretty much constant 25 from strength runes on top of that.

Losing the boon duration drops might duration from +75% to +45%, which drops PS might duration from 10.5 seconds to 8.7 seconds. This will effectively reduce the might upkeep by ~20%, meaning over the course of a long fight you’ll sustain roughly 20% less might with current rotations. FGJ will likely become mandatory to make up for that loss, hurting the Warrior’s DPS.

As for the other classes, it’s hard to say. I don’t think Guardian will be that bad and I think they’ll have some varied strong builds besides just hammer. And while I agree that the sustained DPS rotation for staff Ele is pretty low difficulty, I find it very satisfying if nothing else.

[VZ] Valor Zeal – Stormbluff Isle – Looking for steady, casual-friendly NA raiders!

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Posted by: Jerus.4350

Jerus.4350

There’s certainly something satisfying about blowing things up and making it look easy. It’s just… well… is this really the best they can do?

And thanks for the math on PS, honestly sounds fine then, even with FGJ we’ll see drops and more just bursts of 25 then drop to ~20 sounds like.

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Posted by: Taku.6352

Taku.6352

Eat one of dem dumplings and you can keep perma 25 even without the boon duration from trait lines.

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Posted by: NikeEU.7690

NikeEU.7690

One of the minor Tactics traits gives 10% boon duration so Strength Runes will give a total of 55% which is slightly more than we get currently with Scholar + Dumplings. Should be OK.

Don’t forget Guardians will be getting Empowering Might in Honor which is worth 4-5 Might stacks so they will be able to fill in the gaps if any.

[DnT]::Nike::
www.twitch.tv/nike_dnt

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Posted by: SlyDevil.3952

SlyDevil.3952

So, the big question, is anet going to throw in their new idea of limiting the might stacks on a 10sec interval?
So 6-7 stacks in 10secs, then none, to limit the average might a war can apply?
Also, Dusk, have you heard any mysterious rumors surrounding lupi’s AA? Last I read you thought they were implying it was intentional and they were going to think about the change.

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Posted by: Amineo.8951

Amineo.8951

There’s no meta in this game, only people who judge and think they recahed divinity state, period.

It's not the zerker meta, it's might stacking

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Posted by: Rising Dusk.2408

Rising Dusk.2408

Also, Dusk, have you heard any mysterious rumors surrounding lupi’s AA? Last I read you thought they were implying it was intentional and they were going to think about the change.

I’m seriously pretty PO’d about the whole thing. Poor Lauren has been trying so hard to give us more information, but gets stifled by higher-ups. I really don’t know what’s going on beyond what I’ve already reported, but I will dig into it again.

[VZ] Valor Zeal – Stormbluff Isle – Looking for steady, casual-friendly NA raiders!

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Posted by: Jerus.4350

Jerus.4350

Also, Dusk, have you heard any mysterious rumors surrounding lupi’s AA? Last I read you thought they were implying it was intentional and they were going to think about the change.

I’m seriously pretty PO’d about the whole thing. Poor Lauren has been trying so hard to give us more information, but gets stifled by higher-ups. I really don’t know what’s going on beyond what I’ve already reported, but I will dig into it again.

It’s the reason ANet can’t be trusted to put out anything of value. Really all the issues are wrapped up nice and tight with that whole scenario. Even people working for the company can’t find out why a single change was made? What do their offices look like? Do they lock them up and prevent any talking? Are there no notes on changes made? What kind of crap company is this?

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Posted by: Lucas.9157

Lucas.9157

Year after year…

B I N G O
I
N
G
O

It's not the zerker meta, it's might stacking

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Posted by: ODB.6891

ODB.6891

Might stacking with blasts ISNT too powerful in long drawn out fights. Phalanx IS too powerful in long drawn out fights.

I’m actually going to reply regarding PS, not so much about might in general.

A number of people have started raising the banner of “PS is too strong” as a trait recently, and it bothers me a bit. From my perspective, PS is very strong, but it inherently guts the damage of the individual to take that trait line for PS to balance that a bit. Additionally, the presence of PS enables other combo fields to be used regularly in meta DPS groups without suffering the problem of combo field selectivity (and thus combo field frustration). Furthermore, PS enables pub players to learn best-practices (maintaining might stacks) and thus become better contributing members both of their current team and of the community in general. There is literally no downside to this in my opinion. Might-stacking by blasts is still crucial to pre-stack before bosses, and might-stacking by PS just allows those high numbers to be sustained throughout a fight. I would literally never recommend to ANet to nerf PS because it has only positive benefits for the game.

Convince me otherwise, please, if the general consensus is that PS is bad for the meta/game or whatever. I’m genuinely curious to hear the other side of this.

Personally I don’t see PS as horrible. What I hate is how mandatory it’s going to be after the LH and general non-staff ele builds nerf, giving you no other option than PS in longer fights. PS will also no longer suffer a personal dmg nerf after the trait changes, meaning you don’t sacrifice a lot for group support anymore.

This is a general problem I see with the new system though. Not necessarily the PS trait.

They could open up the necro/reaper might stacking traits to work for the entire party…instead of just for the necro/reaper. That would make it so that there are more viable options for might generators. This would require them to back off of the no boon sharing for necros/reapers though. They could even fix empowering might for guardians to allow for longer duration of its applied might stacks. If they are really looking for ways to even out party composition…its things like this that will do it. That and allowing access to key party utilities for all classes…such as reflects/projectile destruction.

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Posted by: deSade.9437

deSade.9437

Year after year…

B I N G O
I
N
G
O

:O Lulu is that you?

It's not the zerker meta, it's might stacking

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Posted by: phys.7689

phys.7689

ok, ill weigh in a little differently than the other guys.

first before one can decided if zerker is a problem, you have to identify which problem are you talking about?

zerker is not the reason for boring fights, no.

the overall stat distribution/system however is a problem for balance. the range in dmg from lowest dps to highest dps is too great to create a compelling fight at highest dps, and a not 300 hour fight at low dps.

might stacking is a problem, kinda, but it actually helps the other problem, since might adds to your base power, it slightly normalizes damage. Might stacking is a problem because it creates an even greater disparity between organized players and non organized players in fight trivialization. And yes that organization usually encourages standing within a small radius of the enemies.

problem is, aside from like phalanx warrior, its fairly engaging play that rewards working together. Most of the current high skill ceiling teamplay revolves around taking advantage of combo fields. So nerfing it? is nerfing the games current skilled play benefit.

sooo, how could they fix that aspect?

they would need to add mechanics.

give ranged players an ability, maybe through a new combo finisher, to link your boon status to another players. Or perhaps when you have a certain formation.

there are still other reasons to stack, but the major two are boon sharing and enemy behavior control.

Enemies should be smarter about their behavior imo. though thats a point many here don’t agree with. some enemies should try to maintain mid range distances when they can, and most ranged enemies should not point blank you forever due to LOS. Some bosses should seek to use more aoe on melee stacks.

i was playing a different MMO today with some LOS, and it was interesting how they would seek to circle around, and recreate distance if you made it so circling wouldnt work, which made using LOS more like the your old gun slinger pop in pop out, go in to cover/out of cover. they even tried to use LOS slightly to minimize your dmg, they of course didnt use it perfectly, and dodge all of my attacks, but it was definately a more interesting version of npc LOS interactions.

oh yeah, more enemies should be able to move while attacking, just like players.

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Posted by: winterchillz.2564

winterchillz.2564

I suggest that every possible NPC in Guild Wars 2 gets boon stripping spells with total 3 seconds CD.

Cloud of Sparrows
Fluffiest Blood Legion Charr
“At least I die knowing my sisters are free”

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Posted by: Cyninja.2954

Cyninja.2954

On and off we see discussions about how the zerker meta has made for “shallow” dungeon content. By this we mean that the desire to run dungeons using pure-DPS builds rather than more utility approaches has made for a meta that some folks consider restricted to a small subset classes, builds, and playstyles.

I wanted to point out that it’s NOT the zerker meta responsible for most of this. It’s a very small piece of the zerker meta: might stacking.

Might is simply too powerful, and stacking might is too essential. It needs nerfing. If it weren’t for might stacking, most of the “boring” aspects of the zerker meta would go away. Class/utility composition? Well we wouldn’t be dependent on PS warriors, fire fields, and blast finishers, which would significantly open up class and build options.

Everyone standing in one spot? This won’t go away entirely, but without the dependence on might stacking the number of places where this is required/expected would definitely go down.

The pure-DPS zerker approaching being bar-none the most effective/efficient way to clear dungeons? Without might stacking it might not be nearly as viable, or at least not optimal for EVERY fight.

With HoT, ANet is making changes to put “essential” features of different classes into the core traits since they realize there’s no real choice when people are required to pick up certain traits to make their class useful. I hope ANet realizes this is currently the same issue facing might stacking.

It is WAY too powerful to be left in its current state as an optional mechanic, since it dominates all other combo field choices and clearly isn’t considered “optional” by the meta at all. Either the effects of might stacking need to be mostly baselined into class DPS or else it just needs a straight up nerf. Either way, let’s end the tyranny of the might stack!

You sir, have absolutely no idea what you are writing about.

I’m slowly getting tired of having to educate every 500 AP uninformed poster who thinks he has dug up the holy grail no one else has ever considered…

Damage is not the problem or main reason for zerk meta viability. It never has been. Might stacking already got nerfed and is again not the problem, at least not for zerk gear. Nerfing might would hurt all the other gear sets way, WAY! more.

Stacking is done not only for might, but for defensive aoe cooldowns and splash damage. Defensive cds and effects being but not limited to:

- aoe blind
- aoe aegis
- aoe interupts
- aoe pulls

Now if you wanted to write about combo fields being different in viability we could start talking about that.

fire – good for might stacking and aoe blasts (gets used a lot)
water – great for aoe healing (gets used a lot in pve, gets used almost exclusively in wvw)
dark – used for skipping content (gets used some times)
air – aoe swiftness (gets used a lot in wvw for mobility pre fight)

the rest are more situational and certainly not as desired as the 4 mentioned. Can’t have everything equaly powerful.

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Posted by: ForeverAway.5948

ForeverAway.5948

what in gods nme r u talking about man

of course zerk OP dmg is the problem just look at thes forum. number one complant always zergmeta

ppl want to use other build not just zerk corner 111111 stay awake. we should need hp and armor or heal build to make the game more funner

and the problem MIGHT be stacking? of course stacking is a problem! that is why zergmeta is bad

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Posted by: NikeEU.7690

NikeEU.7690

what in gods nme r u talking about man

of course zerk OP dmg is the problem just look at thes forum. number one complant always zergmeta

ppl want to use other build not just zerk corner 111111 stay awake. we should need hp and armor or heal build to make the game more funner

and the problem MIGHT be stacking? of course stacking is a problem! that is why zergmeta is bad

i r8 ur b8 8/8 m8

[DnT]::Nike::
www.twitch.tv/nike_dnt

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Posted by: EcoRI.9273

EcoRI.9273

So instead of corner stacking, when tanks are necessary in the game, we will just stack in the opposite direction of tanks. Such immersion, such fun, I can’t wait!

http://www.twitch.tv/eco_r_i
Wynd Cloud | Fierce N Licious

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Posted by: spoj.9672

spoj.9672

Why would we get a dedicated tank when we have glyph of elementals.

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Posted by: ForeverAway.5948

ForeverAway.5948

bc were suposed a play how we want

i weanna play a tank or a heal. dps is for nubs

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Posted by: TheRandomGuy.7246

TheRandomGuy.7246

bc were suposed a play how we want

i weanna play a tank or a heal. dps is for nubs

Duuuuude you are way too obvious.

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Posted by: ForeverAway.5948

ForeverAway.5948

w8 4 it………………

It's not the zerker meta, it's might stacking

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Posted by: spoj.9672

spoj.9672

dps is for pros

l2p

It's not the zerker meta, it's might stacking

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Posted by: Cyninja.2954

Cyninja.2954

Can we get this thread locked, it’s derailed enough and not really unique.