Guild Wars 2

I hate when people say to me just run, don’t fight, this most annoing thing that i ever heard. I want to clean dungeon not to run from mobs in instances. Can you do something with this. Can you make dungeons harder and make peoples say “we can’t run, let’s fight them”?

The most annoing is fight with a large pack of mobs with high health polls, high DPS and 0 combat mechanics just to obtain 2 grey item and 1 blue.

PPl only fight trash for 2 reasons: 1) necessary to progress in dungeon (like dredge in frac) 2) loot. If mobs are a waste of time ppl just run.

I honestly believe after your 20+ run of the same content you may change your tune. I may be wrong but I too used to like to clear now I can’t stand it because of the lack of reward for performance.

If you look at it in a different light lets say in one hour you can make 8 to 10 gold or you can make 1 to 2 gold what would you prefer?

You still get the same amount of fighting for that hour but its more rewarding that is why in fact people skip trash mobs.

The thing that blows my mind is that sometimes dungeons are set up specifically to encourage the players to skip certain parts. Every time I play TA explorable, I get the not-so-insane feeling that certain parts were meant to be skipped just by how the terrain is setup and what the enemies’ attacks are. I think skipping in TA is about the only thing that makes the dungeon fun! This is true for lots of other places too, like the gauntlet after GL in Arah p2 where you run to the next WP.

I hope they don’t get rid of the ability to skip just because some people complain about it. I love the running mechanics in this game.

Annoing is that when you run from trash and when you must run back you always have problem with that. When dungeon is cleaned you don’t have that problem.

Having that sense of “Don’t screw up or it’s hard to get back to where you are” adds a level of perceived challenge to dungeons that are otherwise obscenely easy and unrewarding. I think it’s a good thing.

The problem is that mobs have huge HP.
They don’t drop anything worthwhile.
Some are dangerous enough to down the average party.
The mobs are all the same, and don’t do anything interesting or fun.

Rising Dusk.2408:

The thing that blows my mind is that sometimes dungeons are set up specifically to encourage the players to skip certain parts. Every time I play TA explorable, I get the not-so-insane feeling that certain parts were meant to be skipped just by how the terrain is setup and what the enemies’ attacks are. I think skipping in TA is about the only thing that makes the dungeon fun! This is true for lots of other places too, like the gauntlet after GL in Arah p2 where you run to the next WP.

I hope they don’t get rid of the ability to skip just because some people complain about it. I love the running mechanics in this game.

When I was a newbie in dungeons, I got the same annoying feeling about skipping mobs. Today, I think it was a weakness that I didn’t know very well about my escaping skills and what to do when mobs start targeting me en masse.
Now, I’m skipping those gauntlets in Arah p1&p2 OK, just not as good as some players I’ve been playing w/ in our LFG guild. They do that so easy and they considered skipping is the most funnest part in Arah especially when they came back time after time to escort those inexperienced of the path to the destination.

People say it because they’re pointless mobs, and 100% a waste of time. You’re in the dungeons to either get money, or get your tokens. Skipping mobs gets you to both much faster. You’ll thank these people for it later.

ExaDal.2017:

PPl only fight trash for 2 reasons: 1) necessary to progress in dungeon (like dredge in frac) 2) loot. If mobs are a waste of time ppl just run.

This is only if you think you can work perfectly.

Granted, I’m no master of dungeon runs and I fail and screw up…and it takes more time and effort when you DO screw up to have to run past the same mobs again.

It’s even more annoying and a pain when said mobs are easy to kill and yet put a considerable strain on you trying to pass them. For example, just tried TA for the first time after not playing it for a couple months and people wanted to skip the first groups between the entrance and the wurm boss….Why? It makes no sense. And the group constantly struggled to pass the wolves + blossoms when we wiped the first time on the boss. Annoyingly enough, when I exited combat so they could respawn (almost another wipe) they pulled in those troll things (lol the name escapes me atm) and nearly get me kills between the poison barrages, blossoms and the AoE Knockback stomp not to mention one died on the way to the boss and me and the elementalist ended up finishing off the boss solo.

Point being: you should not be skipping unless you a.) know EVERYONE will be able to make it through, b.)know you will not have to pass those mobs again, and c.) KNOW it will result in a faster run on average vs having to kitten with the mob leashing, running, waiting, getting out of combat, etc.

That is to say, I would advise against skipping unless you’re with a group that knows how and/or a group you trust and are familiar/communicate with. Too many dungeon runs lately have taken 2-3x longer for people trying to skip crap that’s just faster to defeat.

Yet another one of these guys who got killed while skipping and wants the developer to change aggro methods JUST so they can have it their way.

Forcing your play style on others is not the way to go. Make your own groups or join groups that don’t want to skip. This topic has already been discussed to death.

Skipping explained in a nutshell by Rob:

Robert Hrouda.1327:

It’s one of those human things to do something with the path of least resistance and danger, especially when there is a reward at the end. I could make enemies never drop their aggro on players and force them to fight every single mob, but I don’t see that as a viable solution right now.
I think the better solution is to look at why people are skipping things, and approach from a different angle. Trash mobs have too much HP, and can’t be counted on for lucrative drops from a Risk/Time vs Reward, so people interested in making money (most groups) aren’t incentivized to do it, whereas the end chest/boss are more guaranteed and accountable returns on time and risk. I also think there is something to be said about interesting trash mob mechanics making them more enjoyable of a fight.
I can’t make the rewards from trash mobs so lucrative though that people just farm the first couple trash mobs/boss in a dungeon and then rinse/repeat. We encountered this when people just farmed the first boss in an instance and then restarted it (earlier around launch time), and we had to adjust the content as a result. It’s a fine line you have to walk to encourage players to get to the end, but make the process of getting there rewarding enough as well.

I don’t imagine this next update will resolve all the skipping behavior. The path of least resistance is engrained in people, and even if I do everything I could to incentivize people, there will still be those who skip stuff. I have been fixing exploits that will require players to complete more of the events in dungeons, but I am sure people will still skip what they can to get to their end goal.

For now I would encourage those not looking to skip to find some folks who don’t like skipping and make a guild with them… or maybe look for guilds that are dedicated to not skipping, and tag along with them. I’m in a couple of them (anonymously), and it really is an effective solution to playing the game the way you want to play it: Find other people with similar interests and band together with them.

if they do what OP wants,i can already see him complaining on forum that he can’t find a pt for dungeon because nobody is doing them anymore.

When I played WoW I never had trouble with groups getting annoyed with people who killed trash – because there was no way around it because you couldn’t lose aggro. I never felt like I was wasting my time killing the trash in the dungeons – it was all a part of the dungeon experience. In GW2 you can skip it and all of a sudden dungeons are a series of boss fights divided by running challenges and people become more and more obsessed about wasting time on trash. Fighting a Nightmare Court Knight is very different from fighting a Godforged Hellstorm. People say that the trash in dungeons have no different mechanics, they are blatantly wrong and probably wouldn’t even know how to effectively fight or counter these mobs. Some of the more rewarding fights in the game are the trash mobs (I always feel satisfied when I manage to defeat the wolves or knights in TA through a series of CC skills to keep them off of my party).

People skip them because they are only interested in completing the paths as fast as possible. Dungeons are not about the experience for as long as people do this (do you honestly think most players enjoy chaining swiftness, stealth and stability over actual combat?) they are about farming, grinding and cutting corners for all the content inside them.

I’d like to see mobs not lose aggro, not because I want to force everyone to play like me, but because I accept that a dungeon is an experience with a variety of content and challenges that should be completed. I like dungeons to be whole experiences, not a series of exploits and skipped content followed by a couple big health pools and a chest at the end. To me, that’s a dungeon experience that’s not worth playing. The reward might be there, but the content is ignored.

There is a time and place for fighting, and a time and place for skipping. It’s something ANet has always supported, and I hope they continue to do so. WoW instances don’t interest me because despite different mechanics, everything is the same. For me, having to decide when to run by something and when to fight it, when to break aggro, and when to hold it, is all a major part of the experience. I would not enjoy locations like TA if I were forced to fight everything because for me, the skipping and running is an integral part of why I enjoy it in the first place. It’s fun, it’s exhilarating, and it’s challenging to keep the group together, keep them all alive, and move them as one unit through the mobs. Furthermore, it’s rewarding because it speeds things up.

Remember that GW2 is not like other MMOs. The only rewards for dungeons are coin and skins (ignoring Fractals, which has no real skipping anyway). You’re not actually progressing your character any, unlike other MMOs. In that vein, the only reason people tolerated fighting everything for hours in other MMOs is because it was required to get the “best gear”. You wanted to be the best, so you did it. In GW2, you only get skins, and those skins simply aren’t worth it for most people to justify increasing the dungeon time by half an hour. Do you know what happens to the dungeons when no skipping is allowed at all and they all take significantly longer to do? Virtually no one will run them.

I’m not saying we should be able to skip everything; I agree that it’s important to fight certain enemies, and this is already in place in many dungeons with things like barriers that won’t go down unless certain enemies are dead, and so forth. There should be a healthy balance of content that rewards skipping and content that forces fighting. In my opinion, Arah and TA have perfect amounts of both right now, and although the loot could be better and there could be more WPs in TA, I think as a whole the design is unique and fun.

Simple solution, make your own group and rules. Post your intentions during recruitment and before you start off. Stop complaining and trying to force ppl to play the way you want. That way it’s win-win for runners and crawlers, no more threads of ppl complaining about things they actually have power over.

And the devs themselves are ok with this.

The biggest problem with this subjet is that skipping has become the norm. I feel sorry for new players who are trying to enjoy their first dungeon runs but are being secluded to wasting thier own time because they find groups otherwise.

Skipping shouldn’t be the conventional wisdom.

Shiren.9532:

When I played WoW I never had trouble with groups getting annoyed with people who killed trash – because there was no way around it because you couldn’t lose aggro. I never felt like I was wasting my time killing the trash in the dungeons – it was all a part of the dungeon experience. In GW2 you can skip it and all of a sudden dungeons are a series of boss fights divided by running challenges and people become more and more obsessed about wasting time on trash. Fighting a Nightmare Court Knight is very different from fighting a Godforged Hellstorm. People say that the trash in dungeons have no different mechanics, they are blatantly wrong and probably wouldn’t even know how to effectively fight or counter these mobs. Some of the more rewarding fights in the game are the trash mobs (I always feel satisfied when I manage to defeat the wolves or knights in TA through a series of CC skills to keep them off of my party).

People skip them because they are only interested in completing the paths as fast as possible. Dungeons are not about the experience for as long as people do this (do you honestly think most players enjoy chaining swiftness, stealth and stability over actual combat?) they are about farming, grinding and cutting corners for all the content inside them.

I’d like to see mobs not lose aggro, not because I want to force everyone to play like me, but because I accept that a dungeon is an experience with a variety of content and challenges that should be completed. I like dungeons to be whole experiences, not a series of exploits and skipped content followed by a couple big health pools and a chest at the end. To me, that’s a dungeon experience that’s not worth playing. The reward might be there, but the content is ignored.

You have a pretty ignorant view on the situation. Really, there are two main issues with your post:

1) That is NOT the only reason people find trash a waste of time. The time it takes to kill a single trash pull in GW2 is very often far in excess of what it takes to clear trash in other games.

2) You don’t need to play with people who skip. It’s an option. Stop whining and grab a group that won’t skip.

Leo G.4501:

This is only if you think you can work perfectly.

Granted, I’m no master of dungeon runs and I fail and screw up…and it takes more time and effort when you DO screw up to have to run past the same mobs again.

You should not be skipping unless you a.) know EVERYONE will be able to make it through, b.)know you will not have to pass those mobs again, and c.) KNOW it will result in a faster run on average vs having to kitten with the mob leashing, running, waiting, getting out of combat, etc.

That is to say, I would advise against skipping unless you’re with a group that knows how and/or a group you trust and are familiar/communicate with. Too many dungeon runs lately have taken 2-3x longer for people trying to skip crap that’s just faster to defeat.

Now I remember where I knew your name from when we ran together! Anyway, didn’t you run CM with me a day or two ago? That was a PUG group, and the path I showed everyone seemed to be well accepted. We avoided a huge mess that would have gotten us pretty much nothing and made the dungeon take at least 30%+ more time (assuming that we never wiped). Not to mention I personally find the obstacle-course/jumping puzzle value of the skipping path really fun. I like that in GW2 dungeons I have the option to explore dungeons in a way that isn’t just “approach trash mob, stand around spamming abilities until they die, repeat.”

Take SE p2 for example. It is way more entertaining to me to pull some covert operation and climb along a pipe, stealthily outmaneuvering the dredge and then dropping down on the boss from the ceiling. How cool is that? And then running the obstacle course between the first and second boss is just plain exciting. Way better than dozing off while clearing unnecessary trash.

I agree that people should be willing to clear if members of the group obviously can’t handle the skip. However, all these childish people speaking out as though it should be made impossible to skip are just as in the wrong as those who expect everyone to conform to their skipping mentality.

Welcome to Daily Speed Wars 2. A net has created this artificial time race meta. Well they didn’t create it but pushed it a little farther then other games. Now all my time in game is to Completing my 1/days. I can not waste my time on trash mobs, because if i do i will fail to get one of my daily rewards.
Daily checklist -
Daily achievement pve
Daily ^ pvp
Daily fractal
Daily t6 harvest main/alt/alt
Daily Mega event boxes (timer dependent)
Daily Dungeon main/alt/alt
Daily SAB main/alt/alt/alt/alt (i also skip trash here.)
Daily JP’s Main/alt/alt/alt/alt
ect
By the time i get to dungeons yeah im skipping trash. Id love to say brake it down to one night concentrating on each area but A-net will punish me for doing so (punish/not reward depends on your PoV.) So each new day is a scramble to get as much done after work/before sleep. Some nights i have fun others it seems im just trying to make some quota i must or fall further behind those that do. I really hate the fact there i snow ay to play catch up in gw2. You either did you 1/days or your kitten out.

All I ask is that if your group fails the skip two or three times in a row, you stop and try something else because it isn’t going to happen.

I’m of the opinion that if the group can actually skip then fine, go for it. Shadow refuge runs are a great example of this, because they actually tend to work pretty well, and can be clearly explained. “k evryone run here” in a PUG does not.

What’s surprising to me is that often these groups are capable of killing the silvers that you can pull in small groups safely, to make a clear path, but they want to skip them because it’ll save time. Even though the group can’t actually get past without dying, so it doesn’t save any time at all.

Edit:

The thing that blows my mind is that sometimes dungeons are set up specifically to encourage the players to skip certain parts. Every time I play TA explorable, I get the not-so-insane feeling that certain parts were meant to be skipped just by how the terrain is setup and what the enemies’ attacks are. I think skipping in TA is about the only thing that makes the dungeon fun!

I couldn’t disagree more. Volatile blossoms are only dangerous when you’re running full tilt at them. If you go slow, you can easily clear them without setting them off, but if you’re being chased, it’s a lot more difficult.

Nightmare Court Knights and Hounds and the like seem to have knockdowns, cripple, and the occasional immobilize, all of which are effects that specifically keep someone in the fighting zone.

Honestly I feel like TA is set up to discourage running through, but people are figuring out how to do it anyways. Which is fine, really! But don’t be surprised when teammates (especially PUGs) have trouble with it.

You can do a 20 min run skipping trash or a 40 min run killing trash where you get a few greens and other junk. It’s just not worth the time. If you want to kill everything then form your own group and specify a head of time your intentions.

Telling people that they can’t run a dungeon a legitimate way (devs said skipping is not exploiting) is rude. People form groups with the intention to skip trash mobs. That’s actually the status quo of most groups.

Ballads.2509:

Welcome to Daily Speed Wars 2. A net has created this artificial time race meta. Well they didn’t create it but pushed it a little farther then other games. Now all my time in game is to Completing my 1/days. I can not waste my time on trash mobs, because if i do i will fail to get one of my daily rewards.
Daily checklist -
Daily achievement pve
Daily ^ pvp
Daily fractal
Daily t6 harvest main/alt/alt
Daily Mega event boxes (timer dependent)
Daily Dungeon main/alt/alt
Daily SAB main/alt/alt/alt/alt (i also skip trash here.)
Daily JP’s Main/alt/alt/alt/alt
ect
By the time i get to dungeons yeah im skipping trash. Id love to say brake it down to one night concentrating on each area but A-net will punish me for doing so (punish/not reward depends on your PoV.) So each new day is a scramble to get as much done after work/before sleep. Some nights i have fun others it seems im just trying to make some quota i must or fall further behind those that do. I really hate the fact there i snow ay to play catch up in gw2. You either did you 1/days or your kitten out.

I wear full exotics/ascended, have a reasonable pool of money, and access to all content.

I don’t play this way.

How am I being punished? I am wanting for nothing in-game. Sure, I could have more money, or rarer skins on my gear, but that is a reward for doing more than I have elected to do. You can inflict this regimen on yourself, but it isn’t necessary to experience all that the game has to offer; it may, however, be necessary, to meet personal objectives. That being the case, you have chosen to engage in this behavior and have nobody to blame but yourself.

Shiren.9532:

I’d like to see mobs not lose aggro, not because I want to force everyone to play like me, but because I accept that a dungeon is an experience with a variety of content and challenges that should be completed. I like dungeons to be whole experiences, not a series of exploits and skipped content followed by a couple big health pools and a chest at the end. To me, that’s a dungeon experience that’s not worth playing. The reward might be there, but the content is ignored.

You do not want everyone to play like you. But you have an idealistic purpose of what dungeons are meant to be and you want aggro to be changed as you believe everyone should play for the same reason as you. How is that any different? You are still robbing ppl of choice.

For anyone who runs dungeon for the first few times, I will strongly encourage them to kill trash for the experience or whatnot. But as someone who ran dungeons many times as well as killed trash in the early days, I do not not want to be forced into killing trash just because someone else not even in the same party as me has a bad day skipping trash. If the Time/Risk vs Rewards gets more favorable, then we’ll talk.

Oolune.4357:

Now I remember where I knew your name from when we ran together! Anyway, didn’t you run CM with me a day or two ago?

Yup, that was me!

But the main reason I peered into the dungeon forum was after last night’s runs through TA. Just had several groups trying to skip crap and started thinking “What happened to TA while I was gone!?” Yeah, I think up/up path is the one with lots of spiders and skipping and forword forward has lots of nightmare court for skipping…but these guys were trying to skip stuff I’d never skipped and it was failing so bad. I had to start thinking of only myself just to survive and I dislike having to do that, not to mention soloing/duoing half a boss annoys me as I feel the other 3-4 people are just sitting there waiting on me.

But yeah, I’ve learned to skip decently out of necessity and I do it when the team does it. But if asked, I’m always going to suggest killing.

Make trash drop one or two tokens each on kill, reduce the amount of tokens for completion.

Simple solution that would make trash worth doing; if marginal. This would keep players from just camping the starting areas for the initial rewards the trash offers, and still allow those that want to skip getting most of the rewards from a run including the silver bonus.

Ayrilana.1396:

You can do a 20 min run skipping trash or a 40 min run killing trash where you get a few greens and other junk. It’s just not worth the time. If you want to kill everything then form your own group and specify a head of time your intentions.

Telling people that they can’t run a dungeon a legitimate way (devs said skipping is not exploiting) is rude. People form groups with the intention to skip trash mobs. That’s actually the status quo of most groups.

What are they going to do? Ban people who skip? You don’t make laws you can’t enforce. It is true that the dungeon dev has chosen not to do more to discourage skipping (like preventing the dungeon from progressing unless certain events are completed – similair to what was done for the Spider Queen in AC – or increasing the aggro range of all mobs).

To the people who say they like skipping because of the experience, skipping is solo content done by the whole group. I know there are some classes which will put in the extra effort to give allies swiftness or stability, who will use their staff auto attack to wipe out the blossoms, but those people are usually on specific classes (like the guardian) and will be using those skills for themselves regardless of whether they help allies or not, and they are also the minority of skippers. Most players who skip content are essentially in it for themselves, it’s a solo experience for them. Why put solo content into a group setting? If skipping was truly a group scenario you would need multiple people to stand on pressure plates at key (dangerous) parts of the run which require multiple people to reach that part at the same time before anyone can progress. The current practice of skipping is every man for himself the majority of the time and a painful amount of time wasted waiting for those final two people (who either feel like kitten cause they are holding the group up or they resent the group for forcing them to skip). I’m not talking about people who joined speed runs, I’m talking about people who joined runs without any specifics given.

People greatly exaggerate the time needed to kill wolves or knights or other commonly skipped mobs in dungeons (the new gravelings in AC are an exception – the recent patch giving them tunnelling and bizarre invulnerability seemed designed to turn them into more of a time sink). Most groups can be dispatched in 30 seconds or less in a team that is familiar with fight over flight.

The luxury of just finding another group no longer exists. Increasingly these days it has become harder to find dungeon groups even through the use of the website. The player base has become focused around a handful of easy to farm paths (SE p1 and 3, CoF p1 and 2, TA Up) it’s increasingly difficult to find groups to do any other content.

Skipping content isn’t why people do dungeons. When players want a dungeon in an MMO they don’t think to themselves “oh gee I hope they create a bunch of content for me to skip while a couple straglers who are either worse at skipping or on a less efficient class get left behind and become miserable”. People want dungeons in MMOs because they are supposed to offer challenging group content, they tell a story about a part of the world, you get to be the hero taking on an evil group and stop their evil plans while being rewarded with some sweet loot. Skipping is a solo experience in a group setting, it bypasses group content by providing a solo challenge everyone is required to complete. If ArenaNet wanted to create more content focused around individuals running through mobs to reach the end of an obstacle course, I would have no problem with that. That’s not what a dungeon is and I don’t believe the majority of people who want to do dungeons are looking for that experience.

Dungeons are supposed to offer group content. They have mobs inside them you are supposed to take on with a group not on your own. They are supposed to tell a story, have a journey progressing through the henchmen and finally the boss (does it honestly make sense that all these henchmen are seeing enemies inside their base and they lose them so the henchmen just give up and don’t sound the alarm or keep looking?). Currently dungeons are just a bunch of bosses divided by solo running content. For as long as that’s the meta, I have a problem with the way dungeons are designed. They are becoming solo running challenges peppered with bosses and not co-operative group combat experiences (and some of those experiences favour CC over simple DPS, another reason why glass cannons are pushing out the rest of combat – because people skip trash which is most vulnerable to CC whereas bosses are not). It is my belief that a lot of problems will either be solved or alleviated by removing skipping.

Shiren.9532:

snip

Or you can form your own party that specifies no skipping instead of pushing for a change that will impact everyone.

Until they start adding proper rewards to trash mobs, running is the only sensible thing to do. Sensible in this case, may not be the same as fun. Its good to call attention to this problem.

mosspit.8936:

Shiren.9532:

snip

Or you can form your own party that specifies no skipping instead of pushing for a change that will impact everyone.

As an experiment, form a party for CoF p1 that involves no skipping with a pug using gw2lfg. Let me know how long it takes. Do the same for other dungeons (some which are difficult to get a group for even with skipping).

It’s not about asking for a change that impacts everyone, it’s a decision which needs to be made about whether you want your dungeon content to be played as intended or skipped and exploited for most efficient rewards (and to what lengths to you go to minimise the inevitable). The reality is, there are games which have more difficult and time consuming content which still encourage players to complete them rather than taking the path of least resistance (to a lesser extent GW2 does this with dungeon specific tokens – unfortunately gold is the primary reward now). What kind of dungeon community to you want to foster with your game design? Skipping impacts on everyone. Just because not everyone does it doesn’t mean we aren’t all impacted by it. The ecto duplication exploit lowered the value of all ectos, speed runs of CoF contribute to inflation and devalue the gold rewards of other paths and dungeons which are less rewarding for the time invested. This puts pressure on everyone to farm the more efficient paths, the more efficient dungeons and to skip anything which is not longer deemed rewarding enough for their time. People who do harder paths, who fight all the mobs (despite how trivial the additional time it takes) or who wait for that group willing to do a no skip run, they play at an opportunity loss in terms of rewards.

Skipping and not skipping are becoming a mutually exclusive thing in this game. They might not ever becoming truly 100% exclusive, but in practice, as the game ages, you can’t have one for as long as the other one exists, at least not without great difficulty.

Assuming all rewards and time invested are equal, what does skipping offer from a game experience? What does it take away from the dungeon experience? We need to look beyond the lowest common denominator. The community is better than that, GW2 is better than that. The dungeon community is paying a price by choosing to skip so much content and boiling down the situation to “it’s not worth killing trash” and "don’t make me play your way " (that’s not a valid argument), we need to critically think about skipping and what it offers the community from a gameplay experience, what it takes away from the community and what can be done differently (eg the Jade Sea Fractal). This issue is so much more complex than “it’s a waste of time” and “I don’t want to play how you want to play”.

Shiren.9532:

mosspit.8936:

Shiren.9532:

snip

Or you can form your own party that specifies no skipping instead of pushing for a change that will impact everyone.

As an experiment, form a party for CoF p1 that involves no skipping with a pug using gw2lfg. Let me know how long it takes. Do the same for other dungeons (some which are difficult to get a group for even with skipping).

It’s not about asking for a change that impacts everyone, it’s a decision which needs to be made about whether you want your dungeon content to be played as intended or skipped and exploited for most efficient rewards (and to what lengths to you go to minimise the inevitable). The reality is, there are games which have more difficult and time consuming content which still encourage players to complete them rather than taking the path of least resistance (to a lesser extent GW2 does this with dungeon specific tokens – unfortunately gold is the primary reward now). What kind of dungeon community to you want to foster with your game design? Skipping impacts on everyone. Just because not everyone does it doesn’t mean we aren’t all impacted by it. The ecto duplication exploit lowered the value of all ectos, speed runs of CoF contribute to inflation and devalue the gold rewards of other paths and dungeons which are less rewarding for the time invested. This puts pressure on everyone to farm the more efficient paths, the more efficient dungeons and to skip anything which is not longer deemed rewarding enough for their time. People who do harder paths, who fight all the mobs (despite how trivial the additional time it takes) or who wait for that group willing to do a no skip run, they play at an opportunity loss in terms of rewards.

Skipping and not skipping are becoming a mutually exclusive thing in this game. They might not ever becoming truly 100% exclusive, but in practice, as the game ages, you can’t have one for as long as the other one exists, at least not without great difficulty.

Assuming all rewards and time invested are equal, what does skipping offer from a game experience? What does it take away from the dungeon experience? We need to look beyond the lowest common denominator. The community is better than that, GW2 is better than that. The dungeon community is paying a price by choosing to skip so much content and boiling down the situation to “it’s not worth killing trash” and "don’t make me play your way " (that’s not a valid argument), we need to critically think about skipping and what it offers the community from a gameplay experience, what it takes away from the community and what can be done differently (eg the Jade Sea Fractal). This issue is so much more complex than “it’s a waste of time” and “I don’t want to play how you want to play”.

After all is said, I still will not be able to experience dungeons the same way as you. You want to kill trash for you own reasons? By all means. But DO NOT expect that I run dungeons for the same reason you do.

Do I still kill trash? Yes. In fact, today I led a Fwd/Fwd TA explo with newcomers and we killed most of the trash along the way (inclusive of useful tips). And I later, I join a TA Up Path that skipped every trash mob skippable as indicated on gw2lfg. There is a different way of running dungeons dpending on the circumstance. And the choice is available so as not to restrict ppl into running dungeons a certain way.

Bottomline: you have a idea of what dungeons are. Fine. Run it your way. The other group skipping trash is not interfering with how you are playing your dungeon in your own instance. You just have to make some compromise on the group formation part by specifying your restriction.

Krisstoof.1867:

Annoing is that when you run from trash and when you must run back you always have problem with that. When dungeon is cleaned you don’t have that problem.

what problem?

Solution 1. Don’t die, won’t have to run back.

Solution 2. Don’t suck at running (this includes using your dodges and skills), you won’t have a problem getting to the end anymore.

Solution 3. Play a thief or have a thief friend, running is never a problem ever again.

I seriously don’t understand why people complain about running. The response I get back almost every time is “When we die, we won’t be able to make it back because we won’t be able to make it back through the mobs”…

So dissecting that line I’ve determined that
1. The player is horrible and will probably hold the party back during the fights because they are assuming they WILL die and the party WILL wipe.

2. They don’t have the confidence of running through the pack on their own. This is probably due to them being overly reliant of someone else taking the hits and agro from them or else, with their lack of timing and dodging, they will die. Running solo and running as a group has no difference to anyone who can run effectively except that in a group, other people may draw aoes and agro on top of you or you may die trying to save someone else.

I know there are people who don’t fall under those 2 categories. For those people you should find other like minded people who want to clear for the sake of taking up the time and w/e reason you feel like using that day.

Now lets put this into another setting to help you see our opinion. When you’re 100% map/world completioning, do you kill EVERY mob you see or do you run past some to grab that vista/poi/wp/what ever?
Even you’re gathering do you clear all the mobs around or do you tank a few hits while you gather then move on?
When you’re walking around solo in wvw, do you initiate a fight against every straggler or zerg you happen to pass by?
When you’re in a zerg in wvw and you’re walking through a forest full of mobs (not people), do you commit genocide against all the harmless forest creatures or do you leave them alone and go take the castle?

Tldr~ Please stop forcing a minorities opinion on the masses, trying to change an important part of this game. Some of us enjoy the dungeons for the boss fights and the end rewards. Please don’t try to force us to do trash content just because you don’t want to do something that all the other members of the group have already decided to do.

Was it WoW or some other crappy game that taught you skipping trash was bad and you need to kill every mob? This isnt new. I did not play wow but in just about every other MMO dungeon I have sought ways to avoid trash mobs to get to the named. InEQ, EQ2, Rift, AoC, GW i know “skipping” was/is common practice. Skipping/training/running is a skill like it or not. Don’t act like this is some new concept to gw2. People have been doing this in games forever sorry you just noticed it.

mosspit.8936:

After all is said, I still will not be able to experience dungeons the same way as you. You want to kill trash for you own reasons? By all means. BUT DO NOT EXPECT THAT I RUN DUNGEONS FOR THE SAME REASON AS YOU DO.

Do I still kill trash? Yes. In fact, today I led a Fwd/Fwd TA explo with newcomers and we killed most of the trash along the way (inclusive of useful tips). And I later, I join a TA Up Path that skipped every trash mob skippable as indicated on gw2lfg. There is a different way of running dungeons dpending on the circumstance. And the choice is available so as not to restrict ppl into running dungeons a certain way.

Bottomline: you have a idea of what dungeons are. Fine. Run it your way. The other group skipping trash is not interfering with how you are playing your dungeon in your own instance. You just have to make some compromise on the group formation part by specifying your restriction.

The thing we disagree on the most her is you think it’s as simple as you preferring one thing from another. I don’t think the situation is that simple. It’s much more complex than your bottom line or lowest common denominator. Until people can see it that way and discuss it for what it is, the problems won’t get any better. This is an MMO, most of the actions you take in the game have an impact on others and the wider community in general, especially when involves the economy.

As a side note, skipping the trash in Up path is much easier than skipping the trash in F/F. Up path has a few spiders and other mobs which spawn as you enter their area (so they spend most of their time falling from the ceiling rather than attacking right away). There is one group of Nightmare Courtiers I believe and they are in a wide open area with a cliff shortly afterwards (kind of like a hard counter to aggro) and thus relatively easy to skip (the archers do so little damage, if someone is downed you can usually res them while being attacked). In F/F you have several more groups of Nightmare Courtiers (with knockdowns and fears in addition to massive damage, unlike the spiders), chained after each other in a continuous winding path filled with blossoms. The run is longer with more dangerous mobs. Comparing one to the other isn’t exactly fair.

If you want to talk about the reasons you run dungeons (as opposed to my own), elaborate on the reasons why you run dungeons. What is it you expect from a dungeon experience? I’ve already presented my idea on why I think skipping doesn’t belong in a dungeon (it’s better suited for guild missions like the guild rush or a new solo experience, it’s not group content). I don’t believe reaching the final reward faster is a reason to negate content – if that were true, they may as well just hand out loot for free. At some point content has to have value beyond the loot received at the end (or even throughout). Reinforcing game design to support the idea that content is worth experiencing (whether it be through increasing trash rewards or never dropping aggro, or both) is something I think needs to be looked at.

Critically look at what a dungeon is, what it’s supposed to be (the content it offers, the role if fulfils in the game) and look at skipping. How does skipping impact on all those things. How does it impact on run times? On inflation? Does it take over the meta and squeeze out other approaches to the dungeon? Does it make the dungeon less rewarding for people who don’t participate in skipping? Does it make some paths less desirable than others? What kind of gameplay experience does it offer? Is this the appropriate arena or medium to offer that experience? Does that experience come at an opportunity cost for other experiences? What does skipping add to the game? Does skipping provide the experience intended when creating dungeons?

I think I’ve said as much as I can say on this issue.

Shiren.9532:

The thing we disagree on the most her is you think it’s as simple as you preferring one thing from another. I don’t think the situation is that simple. It’s much more complex than your bottom line or lowest common denominator. Until people can see it that way and discuss it for what it is, the problems won’t get any better. This is an MMO, most of the actions you take in the game have an impact on others and the wider community in general, especially when involves the economy.

No. If you are thinking of economy, you are are thinking of Risk/Time vs Rewards. As such you should be thinking of incentivizing trash. Doing it this way still allows ppl to skip when they want if they want.

As a side note, skipping the trash in Up path is much easier than skipping the trash in F/F. Up path has a few spiders and other mobs which spawn as you enter their area (so they spend most of their time falling from the ceiling rather than attacking right away). There is one group of Nightmare Courtiers I believe and they are in a wide open area with a cliff shortly afterwards (kind of like a hard counter to aggro) and thus relatively easy to skip (the archers do so little damage, if someone is downed you can usually res them while being attacked). In F/F you have several more groups of Nightmare Courtiers (with knockdowns and fears in addition to massive damage, unlike the spiders), chained after each other in a continuous winding path filled with blossoms. The run is longer with more dangerous mobs. Comparing one to the other isn’t exactly fair.

Actually I gave the Fwd/Fwd path as an example precisely because it has more trash. I was hoping to show you that I can be more willing to kill trash but it seems you went and take it the wrong way. For the record, I also done it the reverse – killing trash in Up Path and skipping all trash in Fwd/Fwd path. Just not today.

If you want to talk about the reasons you run dungeons (as opposed to my own), elaborate on the reasons why you run dungeons. What is it you expect from a dungeon experience? I’ve already presented my idea on why I think skipping doesn’t belong in a dungeon (it’s better suited for guild missions like the guild rush or a new solo experience, it’s not group content). I don’t believe reaching the final reward faster is a reason to negate content – if that were true, they may as well just hand out loot for free. At some point content has to have value beyond the loot received at the end (or even throughout). Reinforcing game design to support the idea that content is worth experiencing (whether it be through increasing trash rewards or never dropping aggro, or both) is something I think needs to be looked at.

Is saying my reason from running dungeons is different from you not good enough?

Critically look at what a dungeon is, what it’s supposed to be (the content it offers, the role if fulfils in the game) and look at skipping. How does skipping impact on all those things. How does it impact on run times? On inflation? Does it take over the meta and squeeze out other approaches to the dungeon? Does it make the dungeon less rewarding for people who don’t participate in skipping? Does it make some paths less desirable than others? What kind of gameplay experience does it offer? Is this the appropriate arena or medium to offer that experience? Does that experience come at an opportunity cost for other experiences? What does skipping add to the game? Does skipping provide the experience intended when creating dungeons?

You are overextending yourself. On one hand, you are saying trash take little time to kill from your example of TA hounds taking 30 secs. On the other hand, you say that skipping is so impactful that it can cause inflation. Which is which?

I think I’ve said as much as I can say on this issue.

And to end. I am advocating choice above all else. Although I do skip trash, I am perfectly fine with ppl not skipping and acknowledge they have their reasons. I will always be against the idea of the removal of “choice”.

Shiren.9532:

I’d like to see mobs not lose aggro, not because I want to force everyone to play like me, but because I accept that a dungeon is an experience with a variety of content and challenges that should be completed. I like dungeons to be whole experiences, not a series of exploits and skipped content followed by a couple big health pools and a chest at the end. To me, that’s a dungeon experience that’s not worth playing. The reward might be there, but the content is ignored.

Right now, you can define your own dungeon experience. If you form a group with like-minded people, you can experience dungeon content where you fight and clear everything, exactly what you want.

No matter how much you play with words, all your suggestion amounts to is removing choice from people who don’t share your preferences.

mosspit.8936:

No. If you are thinking of economy, you are are thinking of Risk/Time vs Rewards. As such you should be thinking of incentivizing trash. Doing it this way still allows ppl to skip when they want if they want.

That’s only one approach and it’s certainly not a perfect one (it may not even be appropriate – my current belief is that each boss reward has an intended value equivalent to killing all the trash before the boss). There are other options available, some which might be better than just increasing the drops.

mosspit.8936:

Is saying my reason from running dungeons is different from you not good enough?

This thread isn’t about permission to skip or run, it’s a discussion. If you want to participate in a discussion about skipping or fighting and whether or not something needs to be done about it, looking at why people run dungeons, why people skip content and all the things that are a part of that are essential to having a meaningful discussion. Simply saying “I like skipping” or “I choose to skip” adds very little value to the discussion. Why do you like skipping? Why do you choose to skip?

mosspit.8936:

And to end. I am advocating choice above all else. Although I do skip trash, I am perfectly fine with ppl not skipping and acknowledge they have their reasons. I will be always against the idea of removal “choice”.

Choice is not a reason for something to exist. Allowing people to duplicate ecto or allowing them to farm it via drops does not support the existence of duplicating ecto. I admit there isn’t a direct parallel between duplicating (which is an exploit) as opposed to skipping mobs (recognise as a viable approach, if not the desired or intended one). I want to demonstrate to you that choice alone is not good enough. The choices should be appropriate. Wanting a choice to exist does not justify its existence.

I’ll repeat it because this is where I believe this conversation needs to go (instead of empty statements or peripheral arguments). Note these are questions (I’m not saying skipping causes inflation, I’m asking what impact does skipping have on inflation compared with fighting – think of access to tokens as well as gold).

Critically look at what a dungeon is, what it’s supposed to be (the content it offers, the role if fulfils in the game) and look at skipping. How does skipping impact on all those things? How does it impact on run times? On inflation? Does it take over the meta and squeeze out other approaches to the dungeon? Does it make the dungeon less rewarding for people who don’t participate in skipping? Does it make some paths less desirable than others? What kind of gameplay experience does it offer? Is this the appropriate arena or medium to offer that experience? Does that experience come at an opportunity cost for other experiences? What does skipping add to the game? Does skipping provide the experience intended when creating dungeons? How does skipping impact on dungeon balance? Is it a group challenge or an individual challenge done in a group?

Shiren.9532:

This thread isn’t about permission to skip or run, it’s a discussion. If you want to participate in a discussion about skipping or fighting and whether or not something needs to be done about it, looking at why people run dungeons, why people skip content and all the things that are a part of that are essential to having a meaningful discussion. Simply saying “I like skipping” or “I choose to skip” adds very little value to the discussion. Why do you like skipping? Why do you choose to skip?

I respect your reasons to run your dungeons the way you want. Can you respect my reasons?

Shiren.9532:

Choice is not a reason for something to exist. Allowing people to duplicate ecto or allowing them to farm it via drops does not support the existence of duplicating ecto. I admit there isn’t a direct parallel between duplicating (which is an exploit) as opposed to skipping mobs (recognise as a viable approach, if not the desired or intended one). I want to demonstrate to you that choice alone is not good enough. The choices should be appropriate. Wanting a choice to exist does not justify its existence.

I’ll repeat it because this is where I believe this conversation needs to go (instead of empty statements or peripheral arguments). Note these are questions (I’m not saying skipping causes inflation, I’m asking what impact does skipping have on inflation compared with fighting – think of access to tokens as well as gold).

Critically look at what a dungeon is, what it’s supposed to be (the content it offers, the role if fulfils in the game) and look at skipping. How does skipping impact on all those things? How does it impact on run times? On inflation? Does it take over the meta and squeeze out other approaches to the dungeon? Does it make the dungeon less rewarding for people who don’t participate in skipping? Does it make some paths less desirable than others? What kind of gameplay experience does it offer? Is this the appropriate arena or medium to offer that experience? Does that experience come at an opportunity cost for other experiences? What does skipping add to the game? Does skipping provide the experience intended when creating dungeons? How does skipping impact on dungeon balance? Is it a group challenge or an individual challenge done in a group?

Despite you acknowledging that ecto duplicating is an exploit, you still compare that to skipping to enforce that “Choice is not a reason for something to exist.” That is where we differ, because I believe in existence of Choice. It enables ppl to play the way they want.

As for inflation and economy impacts and the questions that follow, you should ask John Smith. To me, it is a sign that you want to prove your point by overextending into boundaries beyond dungeons themselves. If you bring in the economy into the picture, be prepared to discuss the economy in its entirety instead of just prodding questions.

Krisstoof.1867:

I hate when people say to me just run, don’t fight, this most annoing thing that i ever heard. I want to clean dungeon not to run from mobs in instances. Can you do something with this. Can you make dungeons harder and make peoples say “we can’t run, let’s fight them”?

They run because they want the tokens for the dungeon, or its a speed clear and will only kill the bosses needed for the chests, you are not rewarded in this game for the time you put into a dungeon, we recently ran Arah path 1 and the best anyone in the group got was a green, why should we spend hours in there doing it the long boring way to get a few blues and a green, its quicker to run threw net your gold from the bosses and move on.

You will see more and more people running threw dungeons until they are rewarded better for there time and investment, and if they decide to make the dungeons harder or remove the ability to run past parts of it, then the dungeon will be abandoned, ( when was the last time you seen someone going threw CoE?)

Fights are messy, takes to long, give nothing….so people skip. End of discussion. If Anet didnt want to much skipping they get to the bottom of the problem, instead of this buff then nerf then buff then nerf idiocracy.

Shiren.9532:

This thread isn’t about permission to skip or run, it’s a discussion. If you want to participate in a discussion about skipping or fighting and whether or not something needs to be done about it, looking at why people run dungeons, why people skip content and all the things that are a part of that are essential to having a meaningful discussion. Simply saying “I like skipping” or “I choose to skip” adds very little value to the discussion. Why do you like skipping? Why do you choose to skip?

Here’s the essence of your “discussion”, distilled:

Shiren: “I hate skipping. I wish I never had to skip in any group I joined. Let’s make skipping impossible.” This is all that you are really saying.

Others: “I like skipping. The current system allows us to co-exist by grouping with people with similar preferences. No change is needed.”

Shiren: Brings up various peripheral things to try to complicate, cloud, and distort issues, such as the economy, the nebulous concept of ‘intended experience’ (typically brought up when some poster wants to elevate his personal preferences to a universal standard), various questions based on the dubious premise that there is a “correct” meta and the current meta is undesirable, etc.

You can stop pretending to be some noble individual who’s only looking out for the game, your selfish and inflexible position is obvious.

There can be no worthwhile discussion when the heart of your desire is to needlessly deny other people’s desires.

Shiren.9532:

If ArenaNet wanted to create more content focused around individuals running through mobs to reach the end of an obstacle course, I would have no problem with that. That’s not what a dungeon is and I don’t believe the majority of people who want to do dungeons are looking for that experience.

Consider this:

Currently, people have a choice to skip or not skip. You complain that the majority choose to skip. Clearly they are happier skipping than not skipping. Do you seriously think they really prefer not to skip? They’ve already indicated otherwise through their choice. If people really felt the way you think they do, would you not see more “full clear, no skip” posts?

Shiren.9532:

People want dungeons in MMOs because they are supposed to offer challenging group content, they tell a story about a part of the world, you get to be the hero taking on an evil group and stop their evil plans while being rewarded with some sweet loot.

Some people only care about the sweet loot, and how to get it as quickly as possible with the least amount of effort. They probably hate your suggestions and your ideals.

For others, what you said is the focus of dungeons for the first few runs, and then for many the focus shifts to optimization for sweet loot (e.g. skipping).

But no, actually, what everyone really wants is to play the way Shiren does, because he says so. Please fix skipping in dungeons if you see this Anet.

If you really want to “fix” skipping, don’t propose the stick for the community. That’s in poor taste. Get some carrots.

Also:

(and some of those experiences favour CC over simple DPS, another reason why glass cannons are pushing out the rest of combat – because people skip trash which is most vulnerable to CC whereas bosses are not). It is my belief that a lot of problems will either be solved or alleviated by removing skipping.

More likely, DPS will become even more favored because people want the trash they used to skip to die fast.

Lightrayne.7829:

Forcing your play style on others is not the way to go. Make your own groups or join groups that don’t want to skip. This topic has already been discussed to death.

Skipping explained in a nutshell by Rob:

Robert Hrouda.1327:

It’s one of those human things to do something with the path of least resistance and danger, especially when there is a reward at the end. I could make enemies never drop their aggro on players and force them to fight every single mob, but I don’t see that as a viable solution right now.
I think the better solution is to look at why people are skipping things, and approach from a different angle. Trash mobs have too much HP, and can’t be counted on for lucrative drops from a Risk/Time vs Reward, so people interested in making money (most groups) aren’t incentivized to do it, whereas the end chest/boss are more guaranteed and accountable returns on time and risk. I also think there is something to be said about interesting trash mob mechanics making them more enjoyable of a fight.
I can’t make the rewards from trash mobs so lucrative though that people just farm the first couple trash mobs/boss in a dungeon and then rinse/repeat. We encountered this when people just farmed the first boss in an instance and then restarted it (earlier around launch time), and we had to adjust the content as a result. It’s a fine line you have to walk to encourage players to get to the end, but make the process of getting there rewarding enough as well.

I don’t imagine this next update will resolve all the skipping behavior. The path of least resistance is engrained in people, and even if I do everything I could to incentivize people, there will still be those who skip stuff. I have been fixing exploits that will require players to complete more of the events in dungeons, but I am sure people will still skip what they can to get to their end goal.

For now I would encourage those not looking to skip to find some folks who don’t like skipping and make a guild with them… or maybe look for guilds that are dedicated to not skipping, and tag along with them. I’m in a couple of them (anonymously), and it really is an effective solution to playing the game the way you want to play it: Find other people with similar interests and band together with them.

What they need to do is take the leashes off the mobs in dungeons and drop their HPs plus give them a rare chance of dropping something valuable.

Seems to me that would make the dungeons a bit more interesting.

Make your own LFG and stop complaining here. The day you stop being able to form your own group is the day you can start forcing people to play your way.

A lot of us have killed all mobs at least once. It’s boring and offers barely any reward for the time/effort spent. Would you run story mode again on a character that you have already completed? Probably not since you have already experienced that content. The same is for trash mobs in dungeons. People repeat the same content over and over be aide there are rewards to justify doing so such as tokens and coins. People skip trash mobs be aide they offer nothing but a time sink.

I got three words for OP: Champion Destroyer Crab.

Ayrilana.1396:

Would you run story mode again on a character that you have already completed?

Yes.

Leo G.4501:

Ayrilana.1396:

Would you run story mode again on a character that you have already completed?

Yes.

I believe Ayrilana is really asking, “Would you run story repeatedly absent any reason other than reward?” I would repeat a story dungeon only to help a guild member, or maybe to fill out a group that has been trying to get a fifth for a while. I sure wouldn’t do it for the gold or drops.

here we go again, same kitten diff day!

I think that skipping is a viable strategy, but I wish that people were more receptive to killing the mobs. I’m not a very experienced dungeon runner, and I’m not great at skipping or avoiding aggro and it’s not much help when a groupmate just says “Okay, run through here.” I do my best to follow exactly what they do, but I’ve never made it through any dungeon without dying a couple of times. And if I have to go back to a waypoint, I can guarantee that I’m going to struggle to get back to the group.

I guess that I’m the kind of player that randomfightfan was talking about in his post above, and I feel awful about holding my party members back, but I’d like to experience dungeons just as much as any other player even though I’m not very good.

I suppose my point is that skipping is awesome, and I like being able to save time since it takes so many runs to get enough tokens for armor, etc. but I think it would be nice if more people would, in the event that one or more party member was really struggling with skipping, consider taking some time to clear some mobs to help them out.

Fortunately, I’ve always had parties that were very patient with me and others who had a hard time with the whole skipping thing. But there have been two or three occasions when someone gives up and leaves the party in the middle of the dungeon, and not only is that not fair to the other members trying their best to help us less-skilled players, but it also makes me feel extremely guilty for causing that person to flat up leave and for causing the rest of my party to be at a disadvantage.

That’s my two cents anyway.

Isi.1453:

I suppose my point is that skipping is awesome, and I like being able to save time since it takes so many runs to get enough tokens for armor, etc. but I think it would be nice if more people would, in the event that one or more party member was really struggling with skipping, consider taking some time to clear some mobs to help them out.

Or at the very least, make a concerted effort to pull that member through. Too often I just see groups waiting while someone makes attempt after doomed attempt from the waypoint, growing impatient even though it’s obvious it’s not going to happen unless the group goes back and helps in some way.

(On this note, I <3 clever thieves)

Softspoken.2410:

Isi.1453:

I suppose my point is that skipping is awesome, and I like being able to save time since it takes so many runs to get enough tokens for armor, etc. but I think it would be nice if more people would, in the event that one or more party member was really struggling with skipping, consider taking some time to clear some mobs to help them out.

Or at the very least, make a concerted effort to pull that member through. Too often I just see groups waiting while someone makes attempt after doomed attempt from the waypoint, growing impatient even though it’s obvious it’s not going to happen unless the group goes back and helps in some way.

(On this note, I <3 clever thieves)

Tough love is tough. We just want that person to learn it. If i go back to help or portal or stealth someone do they learn it? Its essential to learn as any weapon skill, build ,or cast order. Efficiency is the only display of skill in dungeons. Knowing the what, when and how to skip is a skill. Actual failure (as in cant win, give up, disband party) doesn’t really happen much. You either do something fast or slow. The good groups are the fast ones the bad ones are slow.
P.S. You know whats also a skill, Inventory Management. Yes we all have to sell, but buy some 18/20 slots and learn when to grind/forge/sell. Its cool you have 5 sets of gear and a shiny back piece but think you could buy a bank tab or a couple bag slots? Do you really need to carry around all that gear and half your legendary pieces?