Guild Wars 2

Torolan.5816:

Care to share the rest of your story with us too?
You know, where you were finally forced to take one of the worse players in then and when because one of your buddies had to run of to shame a violin or an instrument like that by trying to play it and he made you or one of your buddies look bad or was at least much better than you had expected.
Assuming that you are old enough to have played on your own instead of in a Kindergarten or Hort(children from 6 to around 10) like the large majority of children today, you at least had the excuse of nobody caring about social skills.^^

I can asure you that this happens every day between children playing soccer. The kids that can play always kitten and moan when we urge them to take one of the not so good players in their team, but most are pleasantly surprised how that supposed loser fared and how at least one of therir frriends can barely keep pace with the other guy.

Where I fully agree with you is this:
“Appearance and reality – appearance and reality, that’s all need to be said in the end!”

I don’t believe in miracles. Like I said, every person that wants to get in touch with serious raiding will do so and find a group. It has to do with patience and also frustration that not very many players are willing or able to invest.
And sorry, I have no faith in the majority of GW2 players because over the years till today I’ve seen enough horrible players. Maybe here and there you will find a jewel but the huge amount of the playerbase isn’t so it’s just understandable to set (high) requirements and refuse anyone without these.

Gudradain.3892:

How small is the “raiding community”?

I have seen way more “raiding” guild that cannot kill any boss than raiding guild that breeze through every boss.

Must be horrible raiding guilds. People have been doing the bosses with less than 10 people, in green gear, partially naked and other stuff already. The raids are not hard at all. If you continiously fail with 10 people who are fully geared it means your team is horrible.
My guild is nowhere near the top 10 elitist guilds but we have no problem to get through both raid wings with 2 different groups at monday evening (around 2 hour timeframe). The groups are not static either, they get mixed each time depending on the order people signed up for the raid group.

I haven’t heard of any raiding guild that can’t kill any boss, even the training ones manage to down VG time to time.

Unless you mean WvW raiding guilds then yeahhhh maybe. Cuz they’ve never been inside SV/SP.

I took some time to read this thread and I gotta say, so many people are saying raiders are toxic. Which is unfair from a lot of point of views.
I started around 4 hours ago a wing 1 pug. Asked for knowledge about the fights and decent gear. Didn’t ask for gear ping, didn’t ask for LI ping, didn’t ask for titles or other crap. 30 minutes ago we finished it. The raid, even tho we failed a lot at gorse and sab, because many people were not working good under that “last 25% hp pressure”, ended flawless: all 3 bosses were killed with 0 player deaths. Free Eternal title for everybody who did not have it.
But this is what was the best part. Nobody left after we started failing. Nobody started to flame. We just revised tactics, and kept going. This wasn’t advertised as a “fast run”, this wasn’t advertised as an “eternal only – LF 7 TEMPESTS FOR SABETHA”, this wasn’t advertised as “30+ LI” and so on so forth. Just 10 pugs raiding. I can say, I probably had more experience than half of them combined. But I had absolutely no reason to flame them, because I did not ask for a fast 1337 run to begin with. To be honest, with that “elitist” thinking I had, regarding not making them ping gear and LIs, I was pretty sure we weren’t going to make it mast VG.

And here lies the “toxicity” about raids. Somebody unexperienced joins a raid run. The raiders there(or at least, some of them) expect the guy to be experienced(ask for LIs, which our guy links via chat codes). The raid begins, they notice the guy is underperforming, so they flame and kick. Is that the right attitude? Yes and no. No, because it can be done with a lot less flame than it is usually done. Yes, because nobody should be forced to carry you. Especially since many players don’t have a lot of time to play, and in that time, they want to complete goals, not to get stuck somewhere because some random guy is underperforming hard.

When I started playing thief(my main now) I joined a VG pug. I barely knew the mechanics, but I knew about chat codes way before they were posted on the forums, so naturally, I had a spot in the raid. I kittened up bad, kept dying a lot, and they kicked me. I was so frustrated. I remember telling the commander to kitten off in pms. But I look back on it, and I realize I wasn’t fair to those guys. I pulled them down because I thought I was good, and ended up screwing up. They wanted a fast run, and they got an unexperienced undergeared noob that made them lose [maybe a lot of their allocated game time].

Raiding can be a wonderful experience, if lived with the right people. That’s why I say, over and over, raid with people like yourself. They don’t even have to be friends or guildies. Anybody can create a raid squad. Anybody can advertise their run as a training run. In fact, saw more training runs today than actual runs. Raiding is the experience YOU make it to be, not somebody else. After all, you are the one who chooses who to raid with.

Never said finding the right people to raid with is easy, or fast. Is something that takes time, and I understand that many people don’t have it, which can be upsetting, because it feels like the content wasn’t made for them.

Last thing before I go off. Are raids worth it? Absolutely. “How so?”. Simple. Taking down a boss, even for the 5th, 10th or 100th time, with 9 other nice players, after trying multiple times, and finally hearing everybody cheer and laugh on TeamSpeak[or whatever VoIP you use] is still my favorite thing about raiding, regardless of the game I play. I hope my post encourages some players to try raiding, or at least give it another shot.

I think players really need to get real and lower down the elitist meta bs.

This just happened to me. I’m assigned tank in spirit vale, someone else joins, switches character to apparently a better tank even though I know I was good enough and then I’m forced and expected to switch gears or characters.. really?

We don’t all nolife this game, we don’t all have time or even want to gear up extra roles just to please other people, or just for that 1 minute less time needed for completing something.
And that doesn’t mean that we’re bad.

On top of that, I think there are only more raids failing because of this, since people just say that their condi or tank or whatever role, while they’re not fully. And nobody can even check it unless they ask to link gears but I rarely see that happen.

Conclusion is it definitely doesn’t make the game more fun, or easier.

Sun Lian.4075:

I think players really need to get real and lower down the elitist meta bs.

This just happened to me. I’m assigned tank in spirit vale, someone else joins, switches character to apparently a better tank even though I know I was good enough and then I’m forced and expected to switch gears or characters.. really?

We don’t all nolife this game, we don’t all have time or even want to gear up extra roles just to please other people, or just for that 1 minute less time needed for completing something.
And that doesn’t mean that we’re bad.

On top of that, I think there are only more raids failing because of this, since people just say that their condi or tank or whatever role, while they’re not fully. And nobody can even check it unless they ask to link gears but I rarely see that happen.

Conclusion is it definitely doesn’t make the game more fun, or easier.

If “link gear” is seldom demanded, then I’d say the meta is less demanding than in dungeons. As to the specific example, was this individual perhaps a friend of the group starter and/or other(s) in the group?

Sun Lian.4075:

I think players really need to get real and lower down the elitist meta bs.

This just happened to me. I’m assigned tank in spirit vale, someone else joins, switches character to apparently a better tank even though I know I was good enough and then I’m forced and expected to switch gears or characters.. really?

It sounds like the new tank was a friend or someone the leader knew, who they trust to tank more then you since they’re a known quantity. Asking you to switch characters isn’t super unreasonable in this case…

Sun Lian.4075:

We don’t all nolife this game, we don’t all have time or even want to gear up extra roles just to please other people, or just for that 1 minute less time needed for completing something.

You don’t have to “nolife” to have a second character geared for DPS. A set of Berserker exotics+weapons+jewels is like 50-60g and will work just fine. Less if you get gear or weapons from dungeon/WvW tokens.

Sun Lian.4075:

On top of that, I think there are only more raids failing because of this, since people just say that their condi or tank or whatever role, while they’re not fully. And nobody can even check it unless they ask to link gears but I rarely see that happen.

Sun Lian.4075:

Conclusion is it definitely doesn’t make the game more fun, or easier.

The “elitist meta bs” of what, people asking the people joining their raid to bring classes that will contribute what is needed for the group’s success? That definitely makes the raids easier and more fun because you won’t spend hours failing because people are running bad specs.

Raizen.7981:

Raiding can be a wonderful experience, if lived with the right people. That’s why I say, over and over, raid with people like yourself. They don’t even have to be friends or guildies. Anybody can create a raid squad. Anybody can advertise their run as a training run. In fact, saw more training runs today than actual runs. Raiding is the experience YOU make it to be, not somebody else. After all, you are the one who chooses who to raid with.

Never said finding the right people to raid with is easy, or fast. Is something that takes time, and I understand that many people don’t have it, which can be upsetting, because it feels like the content wasn’t made for them.

And that’s the problem I see a lot of players have in this thread:

Joins a casual/training group (like minded?) -> Fails over and over without any progress -> Leaves because it’s a waste of time

Joins an “elite” group -> Gets kicked for not fulfilling the requirements or for being bad → Is angry at the raiding community

The problem is that most players simply need the practice but they aren’t willing to spend the time for that.

My raid guild is able to do both wings in about 1.5 hours now each monday. But don’t think we were able to do that without any “training”.

There’s always that one liar that joins an experienced group only trying to get carried. Don’t be that guy.

Fermi.2409:

Sun Lian.4075:

I think players really need to get real and lower down the elitist meta bs.

This just happened to me. I’m assigned tank in spirit vale, someone else joins, switches character to apparently a better tank even though I know I was good enough and then I’m forced and expected to switch gears or characters.. really?

It sounds like the new tank was a friend or someone the leader knew, who they trust to tank more then you since they’re a known quantity. Asking you to switch characters isn’t super unreasonable in this case…

Sun Lian.4075:

We don’t all nolife this game, we don’t all have time or even want to gear up extra roles just to please other people, or just for that 1 minute less time needed for completing something.

You don’t have to “nolife” to have a second character geared for DPS. A set of Berserker exotics+weapons+jewels is like 50-60g and will work just fine. Less if you get gear or weapons from dungeon/WvW tokens.

Sun Lian.4075:

On top of that, I think there are only more raids failing because of this, since people just say that their condi or tank or whatever role, while they’re not fully. And nobody can even check it unless they ask to link gears but I rarely see that happen.

Sun Lian.4075:

Conclusion is it definitely doesn’t make the game more fun, or easier.

The “elitist meta bs” of what, people asking the people joining their raid to bring classes that will contribute what is needed for the group’s success? That definitely makes the raids easier and more fun because you won’t spend hours failing because people are running bad specs.

But that’s the problem, raids do take hours and still failing because not everyone can live up to the expectations of this meta, but they still join because they want to and just lie about their build, and I don’t blame them. Cause the whole thing is toxic as hell.

Plus it’s not just leveling a char to 80 with tomes and then gear it up, people want ascended and you still need to spend a lot of time to get elite spec. It’s completely bs that you’re expected to do that just to do 1 raid, 1 thing in the game.

I didn’t mention yet that even if you have a good build, you often also need to link Legendary Insight to prove that you did the raid.. I mean come on what is this, are we really going to exclude people just because they do something later than you? It’s disgusting.

Sun Lian.4075:

But that’s the problem, raids do take hours and still failing because not everyone can live up to the expectations of this meta, but they still join because they want to and just lie about their build, and I don’t blame them. Cause the whole thing is toxic as hell.

From what I’ve see, raids fail because people fail the mechanics. Not because people “can’t live up to the expectations of this meta” (what does that even mean?).

Sun Lian.4075:

Plus it’s not just leveling a char to 80 with tomes and then gear it up, people want ascended and you still need to spend a lot of time to get elite spec. It’s completely bs that you’re expected to do that just to do 1 raid, 1 thing in the game.

It’s not “compeletely bs” that people want to to contribute to the raids as much as possible. Not only that, but gear checks are exceedingly rare. Just gear yourself correctly and join your average group and you’re fine as long as you’re playing a desired class.

Sun Lian.4075:

I didn’t mention yet that even if you have a good build, you often also need to link Legendary Insight to prove that you did the raid.. I mean come on what is this, are we really going to exclude people just because they do something later than you? It’s disgusting.

Just join a group that doesn’t require LI pings?

I’ve done all of my raiding through pugs and I’ve had to ping LIs once and never had to ping my gear. Trying to make it look like a 100% of the time hard requirement is grossly exaggerating; the vast majority of people believe that you’re running a DPS setup if you’re DPS and that the tank/healer can heal. Given that most of the failures on bosses come about due to mechanics (even Gorseval, although running into rage is much more common here) and no one is going to go on a witch hunt unless you’re clearly doing something wrong (Example: the DH I had on Monday who wasn’t responding in /d or in TS who was pulling agro off of the 1700 toughness tank).

Neox.3497:

Raizen.7981:

Raiding can be a wonderful experience, if lived with the right people. That’s why I say, over and over, raid with people like yourself. They don’t even have to be friends or guildies. Anybody can create a raid squad. Anybody can advertise their run as a training run. In fact, saw more training runs today than actual runs. Raiding is the experience YOU make it to be, not somebody else. After all, you are the one who chooses who to raid with.

Never said finding the right people to raid with is easy, or fast. Is something that takes time, and I understand that many people don’t have it, which can be upsetting, because it feels like the content wasn’t made for them.

And that’s the problem I see a lot of players have in this thread:

Joins a casual/training group (like minded?) -> Fails over and over without any progress -> Leaves because it’s a waste of time

Joins an “elite” group -> Gets kicked for not fulfilling the requirements or for being bad -> Is angry at the raiding community

The problem is that most players simply need the practice but they aren’t willing to spend the time for that.

My raid guild is able to do both wings in about 1.5 hours now each monday. But don’t think we were able to do that without any “training”.

And how many training runs does your group run a week? It’s probably zero to three. And even if you did that, you wouldn’t advertise that on LFG now would you?

How is someone supposed to practice raid mechanics when all the groups you try to join wont let you? I have joined 10 raiding guilds this month. They have set times (so they say) for raids. Most of them claim to do a training run every week. Want to know how many i have seen, and how many they have actually done? One. Out of 10 guilds only 1 run, from 1 guild. And that got canceled because the person who was organizing it backed out at the last moment.

So basically its been nothing but constant lies. Of course I will keep trying (because i want to learn the raid), but to sit here and say that we “joined a group and failed and are QQing here”, well some of us haven’t even gotten to join a group. I spent 2 hrs a night since the patch in the Raid LFG and the aerodrome looking for a single beginner run for raids. Have yet to find one that would take me. Viper necro. Full ascended with 5 condi stat infusions. I spent 200 gold switching from power because no one would accept power reapers. And now that I’m vipers those same people won’t do the training runs they said they would be.

So please spare me the bull about people ‘wanting to blame the raiding community’. The raiding community is what has been doing said action so of course they get the blame. Who else should? SW farmers?

I don’t agree with all of the OP’s points, but they arent ‘making up stuff’. Groups will not put what they are looking for in LFG, and then kick you because they expected something else, when they are the ones that didn’t put any requirements in LFG (its happened to me several times).

FrostDraco.8306:

And how many training runs does your group run a week? It’s probably zero to three. And even if you did that, you wouldn’t advertise that on LFG now would you?

Why should his group run training runs if they all have managed to clear the raid? Just to help others in the game and be the Good Samaritan? You can’t expect players to offer things for any other player in this game.

FrostDraco.8306:

How is someone supposed to practice raid mechanics when all the groups you try to join wont let you? I have joined 10 raiding guilds this month. They have set times (so they say) for raids. Most of them claim to do a training run every week. Want to know how many i have seen, and how many they have actually done? One. Out of 10 guilds only 1 run, from 1 guild. And that got canceled because the person who was organizing it backed out at the last moment.

Leave the 10 behind, go for the next 10 until you find a group/community that keeps the promise. Like Raizen said earlier before it isn’t easy to find a good and efficient group. It’s (hard) work for very little reward and that is why you need to be a very patient person and be able to accept a lot of frustration.
I am reading my specific forums (german) almost every day just for the informations and I see a lot guild/community offers referring to raids. Last week I tried out one casual offer to see if it is worth to give it a try. I went into raids with them and we had 4 tries on VG with 2 completely new players to this encounter and we got VG to around 20% or less of it’s full hp. It was really astounding and all were very satisfied with this result.
So, my experiences after 1 community are different from your ten.

FrostDraco.8306:

So basically its been nothing but constant lies. Of course I will keep trying (because i want to learn the raid), but to sit here and say that we “joined a group and failed and are QQing here”, well some of us haven’t even gotten to join a group. I spent 2 hrs a night since the patch in the Raid LFG and the aerodrome looking for a single beginner run for raids. Have yet to find one that would take me. Viper necro. Full ascended with 5 condi stat infusions. I spent 200 gold switching from power because no one would accept power reapers. And now that I’m vipers those same people won’t do the training runs they said they would be.

You have 1 asc class? Well, go for at least 1 more, better 2, so you have a bigger diversity to fit into a group.

FrostDraco.8306:

So please spare me the bull about people ‘wanting to blame the raiding community’. The raiding community is what has been doing said action so of course they get the blame. Who else should? SW farmers?

Too much frustration, too much impatience. Maybe raiding is not made for you.

FrostDraco.8306:

I don’t agree with all of the OP’s points, but they arent ‘making up stuff’. Groups will not put what they are looking for in LFG, and then kick you because they expected something else, when they are the ones that didn’t put any requirements in LFG (its happened to me several times).

Then open your own group. Training run groups should fill very fast. But it’s the same thing since people were ranting about dungeon pugs and lfg. They all want to be carried and be as fast as good players. We gave the advices since years: *Put your own lfg with “first time – need help” or someting like this. But we all know why certain people aren’t following this. The reason is that they will meet players that are bad as they are which leads into a long & painful run.

I don’t know if it made it into my post but when I advertised for a noobs only run, the group filled up in only like, five minutes.

People are afraid to take the dive, but if they see someone so much as take five seconds to write out an ad for a noob group suddenly it looks official and its now ok to dive in.

So, finding other players is no issue. A lot of people seem to be monitoring the raid lfg for the rare sighting of a group that might fit them.

The real issue is finding players who realize this isn’t something that takes only a 15 min time commitment. So of the many people that will join your group, only a few actually have the intent on completing the raid. Some I think just want a taste of it, and then back out after the first wipe.

I actually got sought out ingame by a raid training guild after they read my posts here. I’m going to see how this goes. I may even attempt another pug, except this time state how long the time commitment is likely to be. I was just a bit demoralized after the raid turned into a roleplay in the side jungles.

Fermi.2409:

Sun Lian.4075:

But that’s the problem, raids do take hours and still failing because not everyone can live up to the expectations of this meta, but they still join because they want to and just lie about their build, and I don’t blame them. Cause the whole thing is toxic as hell.

From what I’ve see, raids fail because people fail the mechanics. Not because people “can’t live up to the expectations of this meta” (what does that even mean?).

Sun Lian.4075:

Plus it’s not just leveling a char to 80 with tomes and then gear it up, people want ascended and you still need to spend a lot of time to get elite spec. It’s completely bs that you’re expected to do that just to do 1 raid, 1 thing in the game.

It’s not “compeletely bs” that people want to to contribute to the raids as much as possible. Not only that, but gear checks are exceedingly rare. Just gear yourself correctly and join your average group and you’re fine as long as you’re playing a desired class.

Sun Lian.4075:

I didn’t mention yet that even if you have a good build, you often also need to link Legendary Insight to prove that you did the raid.. I mean come on what is this, are we really going to exclude people just because they do something later than you? It’s disgusting.

Just join a group that doesn’t require LI pings?

I’ve done all of my raiding through pugs and I’ve had to ping LIs once and never had to ping my gear. Trying to make it look like a 100% of the time hard requirement is grossly exaggerating; the vast majority of people believe that you’re running a DPS setup if you’re DPS and that the tank/healer can heal. Given that most of the failures on bosses come about due to mechanics (even Gorseval, although running into rage is much more common here) and no one is going to go on a witch hunt unless you’re clearly doing something wrong (Example: the DH I had on Monday who wasn’t responding in /d or in TS who was pulling agro off of the 1700 toughness tank).

What I’m trying to point out is, there is not just one class or one playstyle for every role. I can tank fine as reaper for example, but because other people are so stubborn with the meta thing, I’m just excluded most of the time.

And that’s bs, I should be able to play what I want, not what other people want me to play all the time.

I’m not gonna spend weeks leveling other chars and gearing them in order to perfectly fit in the meta and to please other people for every raid, I don’t even have enough char slots for that.
What kind of ridiculous expectation is that, and it’s only gonna get worse with new content.

You really just need new friends then. Whenever I sub for a friend’s raid I ask what they need and it’s usually just DPS or Condi and they don’t care what class I bring as long as I do my job properly (which I do).

I’m sure with so many people playin GW2, there are people out there who share a similar mindset.

Sun Lian.4075:

What I’m trying to point out is, there is not just one class or one playstyle for every role. I can tank fine as reaper for example, but because other people are so stubborn with the meta thing, I’m just excluded most of the time.

And that’s bs, I should be able to play what I want, not what other people want me to play all the time.

I’m not gonna spend weeks leveling other chars and gearing them in order to perfectly fit in the meta and to please other people for every raid, I don’t even have enough char slots for that.
What kind of ridiculous expectation is that, and it’s only gonna get worse with new content.

And here is the issue:

“Playing how you want” . This is raids, it demands specific things which means you don’t get to play how/what you want. The intent is for you to do whatever is needed for your team to be successful in raids. If that means switching a build and/or profession. So be it. I don’t get how the expectation for hard content like raids to not be this? Considering you have 9 other teammates.

About the meta, think about it this way. People want druids to take the healing role in their groups. You can be like I don’t want to please people and play healing guardian. And you can say that you are healing your team just fine. However, the truth is that a druid in that role would bring much more to the table. On top of that the guardian would be much more useful in a different role with a different build.

If this sounds ridiculous then maybe raids aren’t for this person.

I’m sure someone will point out that a non meta comp worked for x guild group. This is true however, these individuals play at a much higher skill level than the average GW2 player you will find in an LFG PuG. This is why LFGs require ascended gear among other things because you really don’t know the skill of the PuGs you are picking up. And the thing you can control is the gear he/she has which will give your group a margin of error to work with when you are clearing raids.

You can’t blame people lacking patience, and certainly can’t brand it on raiders. You just can’t. I organize fractal runs often. DAILY, there’s at least one fractal, where we fail something in the beginning, and literally everyone leaves. I also used to organize farms. Gold farms in the lvl 40 fractal, Shard farms in the level 72 one, etc. There’s always, ALWAYS, that player that joins my party, which is advertised as [long time farm], and leaves after we complete the first run. Dungeons? Oh lord, I’ve had people insta-leave just because the party didn’t knew to hide behind a structure to LoS some trash mobs.

Point is, I know it’s frustrating that it’s hard to find a group, and when you do, it disbands quickly, but really, that happens linearly in every other aspect of PvE.
Again, if you don’t have much time to spend on this game, nor the patience for it, raiding is not for you.

Most runs ask for “those” roles: chrono, druid, tempest. Few others ask for PS and herald(which is because 99% of the players already have raid-read heralds and PS’). But there are still runs that ask for “dps”, which is whatever role, if they don’t specify it. It’s hard for somebody who doesn’t have more classes. Trust me, I know, I’ve been there. My friend list is empty(as in 0 people added), and I don’t even have a guild, so browsing the LFG is my only way to get into a raid. Which takes sometimes hours. TIP: place the LFG-More window in the lower-left corner, that way you can keep an eye on what people need, while also doing other stuff, like crafting, farming mats, doing any open world PvE and so on. Hope this helps

Vinceman.4572

You have 1 asc class? Well, go for at least 1 more, better 2, so you have a bigger diversity to fit into a group.

No…

This is exactly the mindset I got a problem with, just how much time or gold or gems do you think I have.
I’ve played gw2 for a bit longer than a year now, shouldn’t I atleast be able to play end game content in a normal way?

I played a lot of mmo’s and I’ve never seen one where it’s mandatory to have more than 1 main just to be able to join in on the content.

And I’m sure gw2 isn’t meant to be like that either, it’s just forced upon you because of some elitist stubborn people that always want world records in whatever they do. And then everyone copies it because they think those people are the best.

Sun Lian.4075:

I played a lot of mmo’s and I’ve never seen one where it’s mandatory to have more than 1 main just to be able to join in on the content.

And I have seen the opposite in every mmo I played. If group needs 3 dd and 1 healer you are not going to join as 4th dd even if it is your only class.

Vinceman.4572:

Why should his group run training runs if they all have managed to clear the raid? Just to help others in the game and be the Good Samaritan? You can’t expect players to offer things for any other player in this game.

I never said he SHOULD. I asked him a question. Do you not know the difference between “How many have you?”, and “Why haven’t you?” I guess not.

He complained about people not putting in the effort to learn the raid. Yet he doesn’t offer any runs for said people to learn it, and neither does anyone else. THAT was my point. Watching fight video’s and looking up theory crafting about rotations only gets you so far.

Leave the 10 behind, go for the next 10 until you find a group/community that keeps the promise. Like Raizen said earlier before it isn’t easy to find a good and efficient group. It’s (hard) work for very little reward and that is why you need to be a very patient person and be able to accept a lot of frustration.

Exactly. So if people are telling you they are having issues. Coming on the forum repeating the same crap we already know isn’t helping at all. All it does is make you repeat the same thing we ALREADY know. Repeating it is not going to change the state of raids, or my/OPs ability to find one.

Vinceman.4572:

I am reading my specific forums (german) almost every day just for the informations and I see a lot guild/community offers referring to raids. Last week I tried out one casual offer to see if it is worth to give it a try. I went into raids with them and we had 4 tries on VG with 2 completely new players to this encounter and we got VG to around 20% or less of it’s full hp. It was really astounding and all were very satisfied with this result.
So, my experiences after 1 community are different from your ten.

And yet this still doesn’t help me or the OP any…Thanks for sharing, but it doesn’t do much here.

Vinceman.4572:

You have 1 asc class? Well, go for at least 1 more, better 2, so you have a bigger diversity to fit into a group.

I have several full ascended classes. I just want to play my necro. It’s where im comfortable, and its also the class i know the best. I will not play another class unless I’m asked. Not before then, and not after. And this is a complete non sequitur. Why does it matter how many ascended classes i have? I’m talking about necro specifically that i put tons of gold into to stat swap for basically, nothing.

Vinceman.4572:

Too much frustration, too much impatience. Maybe raiding is not made for you.

And too much repetition. Maybe giving advice isn’t for you, because you have been zero help. Basically repeating the same 3 lines every other person on this thread is saying. I’ll raid if i want, you needn’t be concerned about whether it’s ‘for me’, seeing as you aren’t offering up some raid runs for me to come along on.

Vinceman.4572:

Then open your own group. Training run groups should fill very fast. But it’s the same thing since people were ranting about dungeon pugs and lfg. They all want to be carried and be as fast as good players. We gave the advices since years: *Put your own lfg with “first time – need help” or someting like this. But we all know why certain people aren’t following this. The reason is that they will meet players that are bad as they are which leads into a long & painful run.

So you just basically decided that ‘raiders are the good players’, and those that don’t ‘are the bad players’. Yea you can kitten right off. I’m not looking to be carried. I’m looking to learn from someone that knows what they are doing. Telling me to “just go figure it out”, yea. People like you are exactly what i was talking about.

I have never said that in particular you belong to those who are getting carried and only raiders are the good ones. But I met a lot of players thinking they were the king of Tyria’s dungeons and fractals wiping around the next corner if an elite mob was only looking at them.
And regarding my daily fractal runs with pugs, it is no wonder that the most experienced and best players with only rare downstates are the ones with “The Eternal” or mastery point numbers way above 100, not to say 163 and 166 (a.k.a. raiders with at least decent succes). Of course, also bad apples with the title (bought raids e.g.) on this side and some good on the other but it’s very common in video/online games that people overestimate themselves so much. MMOs are no exception in this case. It reminds me of the beginning of League of Legends when legions of bronze and silver trash players whining about others being in higher ranked leagues claiming themselves being able to play in higher tiers. Ridiculous! From day to day you picked one up to play with, to check his level, to help and after less than 5 minutes you knew why he was only bronze/silver and couldn’t get out of the bottom trash. That’s it for me in the discussion about being good or bad.

And about your complaint of repetition. Well, it’s the only thing we can advise:
1. Try harder
2. Stop complaining
(3. Become better)

I posted it in another thread: Every player I met that wanted to get in touch with serious raiding has made it. Maybe there are reasons why it won’t work for you. You should reconsider them.
I am no psychologist but your rant about my valid, calm and structured arguments is very enlightening for me why it hasn’t been successful for you till the recent day.

Vinceman.4572:

I have never said that in particular you belong to those who are getting carried and only raiders are the good ones. But I met a lot of players thinking they were the king of Tyria’s dungeons and fractals wiping around the next corner if an elite mob was only looking at them.
And regarding my daily fractal runs with pugs, it is no wonder that the most experienced and best players with only rare downstates are the ones with “The Eternal” or mastery point numbers way above 100, not to say 163 and 166 (a.k.a. raiders with at least decent succes). Of course, also bad apples with the title (bought raids e.g.) on this side and some good on the other but it’s very common in video/online games that people overestimate themselves so much. MMOs are no exception in this case. It reminds me of the beginning of League of Legends when legions of bronze and silver trash players whining about others being in higher ranked leagues claiming themselves being able to play in higher tiers. Ridiculous! From day to day you picked one up to play with, to check his level, to help and after less than 5 minutes you knew why he was only bronze/silver and couldn’t get out of the bottom trash. That’s it for me in the discussion about being good or bad.

And about your complaint of repetition. Well, it’s the only thing we can advise:
1. Try harder
2. Stop complaining
(3. Become better)

I posted it in another thread: Every player I met that wanted to get in touch with serious raiding has made it. Maybe there are reasons why it won’t work for you. You should reconsider them.
I am no psychologist but your rant about my valid, calm and structured arguments is very enlightening for me why it hasn’t been successful for you till the recent day.

You got good points but so has he. Indeed, trying harder is the only option he has. But I understand his complaint, since I’m in the exact same place as he is. My main is a thief. I geared it to the max. It’s the class I love and enjoy playing. Yet, since we’re not a demanded class, I can spend hours till I find a LFG that will take me. Yes, I’m Eternal. Yes, I’m at 166. Yes, I hate the fact that I have to spend hours in the LFG window to find a raid spot. I still do it, but I don’t enjoy it, at all.

Simple solution, find a guild.

Sird.4536:

Simple solution, find a guild.

I understand you just found MMORPGs 5 seconds ago, so I’ll be kind and spell it out for you:
Schedules don’t work for everybody
There, I hope I helped.

Raizen.7981:

You got good points but so has he. Indeed, trying harder is the only option he has. But I understand his complaint, since I’m in the exact same place as he is. My main is a thief. I geared it to the max. It’s the class I love and enjoy playing. Yet, since we’re not a demanded class, I can spend hours till I find a LFG that will take me. Yes, I’m Eternal. Yes, I’m at 166. Yes, I hate the fact that I have to spend hours in the LFG window to find a raid spot. I still do it, but I don’t enjoy it, at all.

A little unrelated to the topic of this thread, but have you considered using your gear from thief to almost fully gear a power based druid? You’d have the armour, trinkets and a berserker staff ready to go. So you’d just need a sword and an axe and you’re good to go.

Understandably it might not be a class you enjoy as much as thief, but you’ll hopefully have much better luck searching for groups as it’s pretty standard to bring at least two DPS druids these days.

AnariiUK.7409:

Raizen.7981:

You got good points but so has he. Indeed, trying harder is the only option he has. But I understand his complaint, since I’m in the exact same place as he is. My main is a thief. I geared it to the max. It’s the class I love and enjoy playing. Yet, since we’re not a demanded class, I can spend hours till I find a LFG that will take me. Yes, I’m Eternal. Yes, I’m at 166. Yes, I hate the fact that I have to spend hours in the LFG window to find a raid spot. I still do it, but I don’t enjoy it, at all.

A little unrelated to the topic of this thread, but have you considered using your gear from thief to almost fully gear a power based druid? You’d have the armour, trinkets and a berserker staff ready to go. So you’d just need a sword and an axe and you’re good to go.

Understandably it might not be a class you enjoy as much as thief, but you’ll hopefully have much better luck searching for groups as it’s pretty standard to bring at least two DPS druids these days.

Don’t get me wrong, I clear the raids weekly, with my thief. I do have raid-ready herald,ps,temp and dh. I just don’t enjoy playing them. I just hate waiting so much to get a slot in a raid, because my class is not FoTM

Raizen.7981:

Schedules don’t work for everybody

Your options:

1. Join a guild
2. PUG
3. Make super pug from F-list
4. Don’t raid

There is no “option 5. QQ on forums about demanding pugs.” pugs are pugs the world over and since you referenced your vast MMO experience you surely know that. So why are you complaining?

FrostDraco.8306:

And how many training runs does your group run a week? It’s probably zero to three. And even if you did that, you wouldn’t advertise that on LFG now would you?

How is someone supposed to practice raid mechanics when all the groups you try to join wont let you? I have joined 10 raiding guilds this month. They have set times (so they say) for raids. Most of them claim to do a training run every week. Want to know how many i have seen, and how many they have actually done? One. Out of 10 guilds only 1 run, from 1 guild. And that got canceled because the person who was organizing it backed out at the last moment.

So basically its been nothing but constant lies. Of course I will keep trying (because i want to learn the raid), but to sit here and say that we “joined a group and failed and are QQing here”, well some of us haven’t even gotten to join a group. I spent 2 hrs a night since the patch in the Raid LFG and the aerodrome looking for a single beginner run for raids. Have yet to find one that would take me. Viper necro. Full ascended with 5 condi stat infusions. I spent 200 gold switching from power because no one would accept power reapers. And now that I’m vipers those same people won’t do the training runs they said they would be.

So please spare me the bull about people ‘wanting to blame the raiding community’. The raiding community is what has been doing said action so of course they get the blame. Who else should? SW farmers?

I don’t agree with all of the OP’s points, but they arent ‘making up stuff’. Groups will not put what they are looking for in LFG, and then kick you because they expected something else, when they are the ones that didn’t put any requirements in LFG (its happened to me several times).

I don’t know what to tell you man. Organizing raid is hard. Organizing training run and making sure they have at least 1-2 veteran to help them out is even harder. Especially, and that’s from my experience, a lot of people that need training at this point are people that either doesn’t have a lot of disponibility, are average players, have lag issues or are not really active in their training. Most other type of player using end up in our veteran group pretty rapidly.

Look at this that way. You see all the people talking like you about raid? In the forum you read their post and they say, OMG raid are hard to go in. We can’t practice because nobody let us in. They say they have good build, are decent player, but don’t have the insight or the experience to pug on a regular basis. Well go talk to those people. Maybe create a small guild just as a small friend list with everybody that are in the same situation as you. I can see at least 10 of them in this very post. Oh they won’t all be able to play with you because of their disponibility, NA vs EU, etc. But I’m sure you can get 2-3. Take a look at other post, I’m sure you can get a bit more. Do that for sometime and try to pug what you need to the rest.

Because most guild already have their core group setup so of course it will be harder for them to organize secondary run for training. I’m the one doing it for my guild and it’s a nightmare. We brainstorm every 3-4 weeks to find better way to organize our raid and make sure the new guys are playing together, but it’s just hard to organize properly. Your best bet if to organize it yourself. It’s gonna be hard as hell, because it’s hard as hell for most of us, but that’s raid.

Raizen.7981:

Sird.4536:

Simple solution, find a guild.

I understand you just found MMORPGs 5 seconds ago, so I’ll be kind and spell it out for you:
Schedules don’t work for everybody
There, I hope I helped.

So then what Is stopping you from making a group with your friends? What is stopping you from joining a guild anyway and making your own group within that guild when you are on?

Not every guild in this game are full of elitist members that only want you to show up on specific days. I have had a schedule that has not allowed me to clear both wings however today I am free and will set a group up myself.

There, I hope I helped.

NikeEU.7690:

Your options:

1. Join a guild
2. PUG
3. Make super pug from F-list
4. Don’t raid

There is no “option 5. QQ on forums about demanding pugs.” pugs are pugs the world over and since you referenced your vast MMO experience you surely know that. So why are you complaining?

Pretty sure it’s not me who you wanted to quote. If it is, read everything before kittenposting.

Sird.4536:

So then what Is stopping you from making a group with your friends? What is stopping you from joining a guild anyway and making your own group within that guild when you are on?

Wonder if you actually know what a schedule is, or you’re just playing dumb

I love how I’m getting negative replies from everyone, even tho my posts are about how WE raiders aren’t as toxic as the other part of the community makes out to be.

I’ve been raiding since release, I find them far easier than WoW’s/RIFT’s/LOTRO’s/you name them, I always pug them because being in a guild is not for me.

My one and only complaint is not the meta, but the players asking for it. Because people copy what a youtuber said, and blindlessly follow that thing without thinking at all for himself. Just as I was raiding with a condi(longbow+ sword/torch for the ones that don’t remember the burnzerker meta) berzerker warrior that was running FULL BERZERKER/ASSASSIN gear, because that’s what he understood from Nike’s video on warrior raid builds. That’s most of the raiding community right now and it’s annoying af.

No I meant to quote you. You insulted a guy for not understanding how MMOs worked while at the same time complaining that you can’t raid the way you want because of a busy schedule or something. cognitive dissonance I think?

In your initial post you complain about having a certain amount of LI or achievement points and even titles, then you complain about having a schedule and now you complain about gear requirements. Can you make up your mind?

Though I will answer your initial question to me about whether I know what a schedule is. Yes. My schedule this week has prevented me from clearing wing 1 and 2 though today I am free. So what I am going to do is log on and with the power of guild chat form a group to clear wing 1 and 2.

Sird.4536:

In your initial post you complain about having a certain amount of LI or achievement points and even titles, then you complain about having a schedule and now you complain about gear requirements. Can you make up your mind?

Though I will answer your initial question to me about whether I know what a schedule is. Yes. My schedule this week has prevented me from clearing wing 1 and 2 though today I am free. So what I am going to do is log on and with the power of guild chat form a group to clear wing 1 and 2.

In my initial post I complain about people claiming raiders are toxic, and then proceed to tell how I pugged a raid with 9 newbies, without asking them to ping LI and gear, and how after 3 hours everybody had Eternal titles due to a great run. I literally didn’t complain once

Raizen.7981:

Sird.4536:

In your initial post you complain about having a certain amount of LI or achievement points and even titles, then you complain about having a schedule and now you complain about gear requirements. Can you make up your mind?

Though I will answer your initial question to me about whether I know what a schedule is. Yes. My schedule this week has prevented me from clearing wing 1 and 2 though today I am free. So what I am going to do is log on and with the power of guild chat form a group to clear wing 1 and 2.

In my initial post I complain about people claiming raiders are toxic, and then proceed to tell how I pugged a raid with 9 newbies, without asking them to ping LI and gear, and how after 3 hours everybody had Eternal titles due to a great run. I literally didn’t complain once

For some reason I though you were the OP due to the reply you gave me so for that I do apologise though the other stuff still stands.

Sird.4536:

Raizen.7981:

Sird.4536:

In your initial post you complain about having a certain amount of LI or achievement points and even titles, then you complain about having a schedule and now you complain about gear requirements. Can you make up your mind?

Though I will answer your initial question to me about whether I know what a schedule is. Yes. My schedule this week has prevented me from clearing wing 1 and 2 though today I am free. So what I am going to do is log on and with the power of guild chat form a group to clear wing 1 and 2.

In my initial post I complain about people claiming raiders are toxic, and then proceed to tell how I pugged a raid with 9 newbies, without asking them to ping LI and gear, and how after 3 hours everybody had Eternal titles due to a great run. I literally didn’t complain once

For some reason I though you were the OP due to the reply you gave me so for that I do apologise though the other stuff still stands.

Hey mate, no hard feels. Good luck with your raids

FrostDraco.8306:

Vinceman.4572:

Why should his group run training runs if they all have managed to clear the raid? Just to help others in the game and be the Good Samaritan? You can’t expect players to offer things for any other player in this game.

I never said he SHOULD. I asked him a question. Do you not know the difference between “How many have you?”, and “Why haven’t you?” I guess not.

He complained about people not putting in the effort to learn the raid. Yet he doesn’t offer any runs for said people to learn it, and neither does anyone else. THAT was my point. Watching fight video’s and looking up theory crafting about rotations only gets you so far.

Do you think my group got any training runs from experienced players? NO. We had to learn it ourselves. The only thing we had were some videos as you said and nothing more.

Now why is it our duty to help you?

This problem comes up in every MMO i’ve ever played and the responses from the devs are usually the same every time, but in GW2 they can’t do the normal response.

Raids/ hard mode dungeons are typically considered end game content in every MMO. The players with the most time/skill/patience/dedication get to this content first. They put in more time, they are willing to experiment and fail, and they pick themselves up and try again when they do fail. This group of players has no problem clearing the content.

The second group of players are the casual players with skill. They are similar to the first group but they have less free time. These players are generally a month or so behind the first group, and typically are your “good” pugs. These players have no problem finding groups that are short a few members and learning the fights and helping other teams on a week by week basis with no long term commitment or strict schedule.

Finally we have group 3 players. These players are typically 2-3 months behind the second group and are always the loudest. They lack both time and skill, tend to be inpatient and always blame failure on others. They make up the majority of players in an MMO. These players are not willing to put in the time, effort, or failure required to beat the content. They view this as a personal attack on themselves and demand their right to clear the content like the other groups. They typically blame “elitists” who won’t let them in the raids, completely ignoring the fact that they have the same group finding tools as the other players had and used to form their parties. Telling them this just makes them angry because they view it as their God given right to raid with experienced people who already spent the time and energy to learn the fights.

Typically this is not a problem. Most MMO’s operate on a gear treadmill so once the hard mode dungeons/raids are one generation outdated (typically 4-6 months later) the type 1 and 2 players have moved on and the devs reduce the difficulty of the aforementioned content to a level where even the type 3 players can beat it. This placates them and the cycle starts over.

In GW2 however there is no gear treadmill. These raids are supposed to stay relevant for years to come. As such the complaining will continue to get louder and louder with no end in sight. The solution will probably be an easy mode version of the raid with reduced rewards, but must be handled carefully to appease both groups. If type 1 and 2 players stop doing raids, type 3 players will suffer for it. The other option is that Anet abandons raids after the whining gets too loud.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

This problem comes up in every MMO i’ve ever played and the responses from the devs are usually the same every time, but in GW2 they can’t do the normal response.

Raids/ hard mode dungeons are typically considered end game content in every MMO. The players with the most time/skill/patience/dedication get to this content first. They put in more time, they are willing to experiment and fail, and they pick themselves up and try again when they do fail. This group of players has no problem clearing the content.

The second group of players are the casual players with skill. They are similar to the first group but they have less free time. These players are generally a month or so behind the first group, and typically are your “good” pugs. These players have no problem finding groups that are short a few members and learning the fights and helping other teams on a week by week basis with no long term commitment or strict schedule.

Finally we have group 3 players. These players are typically 2-3 months behind the second group and are always the loudest. They lack both time and skill, tend to be inpatient and always blame failure on others. They make up the majority of players in an MMO. These players are not willing to put in the time, effort, or failure required to beat the content. They view this as a personal attack on themselves and demand their right to clear the content like the other groups. They typically blame “elitists” who won’t let them in the raids, completely ignoring the fact that they have the same group finding tools as the other players had and used to form their parties. Telling them this just makes them angry because they view it as their God given right to raid with experienced people who already spent the time and energy to learn the fights.

Typically this is not a problem. Most MMO’s operate on a gear treadmill so once the hard mode dungeons/raids are one generation outdated (typically 4-6 months later) the type 1 and 2 players have moved on and the devs reduce the difficulty of the aforementioned content to a level where even the type 3 players can beat it. This placates them and the cycle starts over.

In GW2 however there is no gear treadmill. These raids are supposed to stay relevant for years to come. As such the complaining will continue to get louder and louder with no end in sight. The solution will probably be an easy mode version of the raid with reduced rewards, but must be handled carefully to appease both groups. If type 1 and 2 players stop doing raids, type 3 players will suffer for it. The other option is that Anet abandons raids after the whining gets too loud.

This is so accurate it should get stickied

Dante.1508:

This thread shows perfectly why most people hate raiding with a passion, the communities it draws are some of the worst online games can generate..

Best honestly just to ignore raiding completely, in every game not just here.

Sorry if you’ve had bad experiences but you’re generalizing and over-reacting way too much. I’ve done alot of raids by now (all of which were with pugs) and I have yet to see anyone being an elitist jerk. The worst i’ve seen is someone get kicked by a party leader because clearly he didn’t know what to do, but the guy that kicked told him why before and was very polite about it.

Since alot of raids are coordinated in TS or Discord or whatever the keyboard warrior factor kind of goes away, and people in general are quite nice.

That being said, i’m on EU, maybe its a different story on NA:)

Sun Lian.4075:

Fermi.2409:

Sun Lian.4075:

I think players really need to get real and lower down the elitist meta bs.

This just happened to me. I’m assigned tank in spirit vale, someone else joins, switches character to apparently a better tank even though I know I was good enough and then I’m forced and expected to switch gears or characters.. really?

It sounds like the new tank was a friend or someone the leader knew, who they trust to tank more then you since they’re a known quantity. Asking you to switch characters isn’t super unreasonable in this case…

Sun Lian.4075:

We don’t all nolife this game, we don’t all have time or even want to gear up extra roles just to please other people, or just for that 1 minute less time needed for completing something.

You don’t have to “nolife” to have a second character geared for DPS. A set of Berserker exotics+weapons+jewels is like 50-60g and will work just fine. Less if you get gear or weapons from dungeon/WvW tokens.

Sun Lian.4075:

On top of that, I think there are only more raids failing because of this, since people just say that their condi or tank or whatever role, while they’re not fully. And nobody can even check it unless they ask to link gears but I rarely see that happen.

Sun Lian.4075:

Conclusion is it definitely doesn’t make the game more fun, or easier.

The “elitist meta bs” of what, people asking the people joining their raid to bring classes that will contribute what is needed for the group’s success? That definitely makes the raids easier and more fun because you won’t spend hours failing because people are running bad specs.

But that’s the problem, raids do take hours and still failing because not everyone can live up to the expectations of this meta, but they still join because they want to and just lie about their build, and I don’t blame them. Cause the whole thing is toxic as hell.

Have you considered its “toxic as hell” because of all these liars you are endorsing?

No liars means no failed expectations means no toxicity.

Coulter.2315:

Sun Lian.4075:

Fermi.2409:

Sun Lian.4075:

I think players really need to get real and lower down the elitist meta bs.

This just happened to me. I’m assigned tank in spirit vale, someone else joins, switches character to apparently a better tank even though I know I was good enough and then I’m forced and expected to switch gears or characters.. really?

It sounds like the new tank was a friend or someone the leader knew, who they trust to tank more then you since they’re a known quantity. Asking you to switch characters isn’t super unreasonable in this case…

Sun Lian.4075:

We don’t all nolife this game, we don’t all have time or even want to gear up extra roles just to please other people, or just for that 1 minute less time needed for completing something.

You don’t have to “nolife” to have a second character geared for DPS. A set of Berserker exotics+weapons+jewels is like 50-60g and will work just fine. Less if you get gear or weapons from dungeon/WvW tokens.

Sun Lian.4075:

On top of that, I think there are only more raids failing because of this, since people just say that their condi or tank or whatever role, while they’re not fully. And nobody can even check it unless they ask to link gears but I rarely see that happen.

Sun Lian.4075:

Conclusion is it definitely doesn’t make the game more fun, or easier.

The “elitist meta bs” of what, people asking the people joining their raid to bring classes that will contribute what is needed for the group’s success? That definitely makes the raids easier and more fun because you won’t spend hours failing because people are running bad specs.

But that’s the problem, raids do take hours and still failing because not everyone can live up to the expectations of this meta, but they still join because they want to and just lie about their build, and I don’t blame them. Cause the whole thing is toxic as hell.

Have you considered its “toxic as hell” because of all these liars you are endorsing?

No liars means no failed expectations means no toxicity.

Yeah of course that has to do with it, but that’s what you’re gonna get with the way people are excluded now because of the meta. It basically feeds itself.

Sun Lian.4075:

Coulter.2315:

Sun Lian.4075:

Fermi.2409:

Sun Lian.4075:

I think players really need to get real and lower down the elitist meta bs.

This just happened to me. I’m assigned tank in spirit vale, someone else joins, switches character to apparently a better tank even though I know I was good enough and then I’m forced and expected to switch gears or characters.. really?

It sounds like the new tank was a friend or someone the leader knew, who they trust to tank more then you since they’re a known quantity. Asking you to switch characters isn’t super unreasonable in this case…

Sun Lian.4075:

We don’t all nolife this game, we don’t all have time or even want to gear up extra roles just to please other people, or just for that 1 minute less time needed for completing something.

You don’t have to “nolife” to have a second character geared for DPS. A set of Berserker exotics+weapons+jewels is like 50-60g and will work just fine. Less if you get gear or weapons from dungeon/WvW tokens.

Sun Lian.4075:

On top of that, I think there are only more raids failing because of this, since people just say that their condi or tank or whatever role, while they’re not fully. And nobody can even check it unless they ask to link gears but I rarely see that happen.

Sun Lian.4075:

Conclusion is it definitely doesn’t make the game more fun, or easier.

The “elitist meta bs” of what, people asking the people joining their raid to bring classes that will contribute what is needed for the group’s success? That definitely makes the raids easier and more fun because you won’t spend hours failing because people are running bad specs.

But that’s the problem, raids do take hours and still failing because not everyone can live up to the expectations of this meta, but they still join because they want to and just lie about their build, and I don’t blame them. Cause the whole thing is toxic as hell.

Have you considered its “toxic as hell” because of all these liars you are endorsing?

No liars means no failed expectations means no toxicity.

Yeah of course that has to do with it, but that’s what you’re gonna get with the way people are excluded now because of the meta. It basically feeds itself.

I think if people are open about their experience and are willing to put time and effort into learning the encounter and being prepared you’ll find everyone is much more accepting and willing to help.

If you do a PUG run and like a few people whisper them afterwards and add them to friends and try to get a core together so you can all work and learn the encounter. You can even start a PUG raid guild and invite good PUG members to it so you can always have a group of people to work with.

Don’t lie, be friendly and be prepared to work with people

Coulter.2315:

Don’t lie, be friendly and be prepared to work with people

^ This. ^

I can see both sides of the discussion. Would it be nice if all groups were waiting with open arms to teach people the content? Of course it would.

However, everyone wants convenience. That includes the people being excluded and the people doing the excluding. The difference is that the people doing the excluding started the group and have already put in the effort to learn what to do. It takes a certain mindset to be willing to lead a group that will teach stuff you’ve learned weeks or months ago. Not everyone is willing or able to do that every time out, if at all.

Sun Lian.4075:

Coulter.2315:

Sun Lian.4075:

Fermi.2409:

Sun Lian.4075:

I think players really need to get real and lower down the elitist meta bs.

This just happened to me. I’m assigned tank in spirit vale, someone else joins, switches character to apparently a better tank even though I know I was good enough and then I’m forced and expected to switch gears or characters.. really?

It sounds like the new tank was a friend or someone the leader knew, who they trust to tank more then you since they’re a known quantity. Asking you to switch characters isn’t super unreasonable in this case…

Sun Lian.4075:

We don’t all nolife this game, we don’t all have time or even want to gear up extra roles just to please other people, or just for that 1 minute less time needed for completing something.

You don’t have to “nolife” to have a second character geared for DPS. A set of Berserker exotics+weapons+jewels is like 50-60g and will work just fine. Less if you get gear or weapons from dungeon/WvW tokens.

Sun Lian.4075:

On top of that, I think there are only more raids failing because of this, since people just say that their condi or tank or whatever role, while they’re not fully. And nobody can even check it unless they ask to link gears but I rarely see that happen.

Sun Lian.4075:

Conclusion is it definitely doesn’t make the game more fun, or easier.

The “elitist meta bs” of what, people asking the people joining their raid to bring classes that will contribute what is needed for the group’s success? That definitely makes the raids easier and more fun because you won’t spend hours failing because people are running bad specs.

But that’s the problem, raids do take hours and still failing because not everyone can live up to the expectations of this meta, but they still join because they want to and just lie about their build, and I don’t blame them. Cause the whole thing is toxic as hell.

Have you considered its “toxic as hell” because of all these liars you are endorsing?

No liars means no failed expectations means no toxicity.

Yeah of course that has to do with it, but that’s what you’re gonna get with the way people are excluded now because of the meta. It basically feeds itself.

So if someone runs PTV build on a profession and he/she gets excluded because the team doesn’t need that or that build/profession isn’t bring much to the table for the group he/she is with. How is that the meta’s/raid community’s fault? o.O

Option 1 (Playing Non Meta):
Random 1 – Would like to play how I want. Play PTV Warrior with Regen banners to tank.
Team – Ask Random to switch profession and/or build to suit the team more like PS Warrior
Random 1 – Refuses to switch or change
Team – Tells Random that they need a PS Warrior and proceeds to kick
Random 1 – Go on forums to complain how toxic the raid community is

Option 2 (Playing Meta):
Random 1 – Would like to play how I want. Play PTV Warrior with Regen banners to tank.
Team – Ask Random to switch profession and/or build to suit the team more like PS Warrior
Random 1 – Changes to PS Warrior to accommodate the team to ensure successful raid completion

Explain to me how Option 1 is even a valid response for raids since it is a team effort and requires coordination. There will always be a time when someone has to sacrifice and refusing to change it seems like said individual is unwilling to be a team player which is against everything raids intend to be.

It’s not like that, of course option 1 sounds stupid but you don’t think I already switched gears?

The problem is that even then, it’s not enough. And by playing how I want I meant that I only have 1 main, I just don’t have the time or gold to do 2. How am I ever gonna do that if I can’t even play the end game content to my first main better.

My main is necro and so I now switched to a condi build, not full asc because the viper accessories can only be obtained by doing raids, that’s what so stupid about it.

Don’t lie, be friendly and be prepared to work with people

Well I’m always prepared to work with other people, I never kick anyone out of the groups I make and the runs are fine, those aren’t raids but still. And that’s why I don’t get why raids have to be like this. I think it’s a bit unnecessary.

Sun Lian.4075:

It’s not like that, of course option 1 sounds stupid but you don’t think I already switched gears?

The problem is that even then, it’s not enough. And by playing how I want I meant that I only have 1 main, I just don’t have the time or gold to do 2. How am I ever gonna do that if I can’t even play the end game content to my first main better.

My main is necro and so I now switched to a condi build, not full asc because the viper accessories can only be obtained by doing raids, that’s what so stupid about it.

Don’t lie, be friendly and be prepared to work with people

Well I’m always prepared to work with other people, I never kick anyone out of the groups I make and the runs are fine, those aren’t raids but still. And that’s why I don’t get why raids have to be like this. I think it’s a bit unnecessary.

Because Raids are supposed to be hard group content!, Which means you can’t do what ever you want (though you do have more than one option and currently all classes have a spot!, at least in sv..), the “raider community” has put a lot of thought and effort to make the best squad compositions for more smooth kills. So if a group is missing 1 Chrono (who provides important DPS buffs) & 1 PS War (Provides Might), they won’t take 2 staff Guards just because they joined in LFG right?
If a group wanted a warrior to provide might, and a warrior with a different build joined & he refuses to change, the group is missing the role they relied on in their squad comp.

Another week has passed since this and other QQ threads were open, same as before I continued to join random PuG groups for fun, even after clearing both wings.. and again, most of those groups did not ask me for Eternal, did not ask for perfect gear, and not an endless amount of LI (all of which I do have!), they only asked for a certain role and if I know what to do. I rarely encountered toxic people and saw many who are willing to help others with w/e they were doing wrong.
Also, every day that I go on the LFG, I see at least (!!!) two training groups for both wings and surprisingly, many of those groups succeed with the right guidance.

So again, read some guides, adjust your build to whatever is expected of your class (doesn’t have to be perfect but it’s a Raid not a Dungeon, so don’t bring your Masterwork sword..), spend some time looking for the right group and be honest with them because: being a liar is worst than failing, some groups will accept fails & will help but most won’t accept liars. There is no reason for this to not work, many raiders started just as you.
If you are not willing to make the minimum effort for: learning, getting some equipment, adjusting your builds according to group needs, and time investment, then I’m sorry but Raids are just not for you.
Raids in other MMO’s require much much more.

I don´t know if it is necessary to be super good at PvE in GW2 to beat a raid. To be honest, I don´t even care anymore because Coconut is sadly right and this is not the right content for me personally.

From what I have read here over the last months, If you want to raid you should look for a group that does it regularly, suck up abusive behaviour until you have proven yourself in whatever role they need if you encounter such people or move on if they can´t control their urges to belittle or harshly correct you because they have already invested time and trained while you did not have the opportunity to do so for whatever reason.

Coconut.7082

You know, you would be completely right if it was kitten easy to get more full asc characters, cause that’s what you’re saying right? That’s what you need for this, and if you don’t have it well then you need to quit you job and make more time or something.

No.. that’s kittened. It’s literally like saying this end game content is only made for people who do nothing but play gw2. Cause I know the bar is always set by those same players and it’s definitely overrated.

We all paid for this game, I can’t believe some people actually think their in the fullest right having some sort of monopoly on end game content, only because they have all the time in the world to play gw2.

They need to stop setting the bar so ridiculously high all the time.

Torolan.5816:

I don´t know if it is necessary to be super good at PvE in GW2 to beat a raid. To be honest, I don´t even care anymore because Coconut is sadly right and this is not the right content for me personally.

From what I have read here over the last months, If you want to raid you should look for a group that does it regularly, suck up abusive behaviour until you have proven yourself in whatever role they need if you encounter such people or move on if they can´t control their urges to belittle or harshly correct you because they have already invested time and trained while you did not have the opportunity to do so for whatever reason.

Sun Lian.4075:

Coconut.7082

You know, you would be completely right if it was kitten easy to get more full asc characters, cause that’s what you’re saying right? That’s what you need for this, and if you don’t have it well then you need to quit you job and make more time or something.

No.. that’s kittened. It’s literally like saying this end game content is only made for people who do nothing but play gw2. Cause I know the bar is always set by those same players and it’s definitely overrated.

We all paid for this game, I can’t believe some people actually think their in the fullest right having some sort of monopoly on end game content, only because they have all the time in the world to play gw2.

They need to stop setting the bar so ridiculously high all the time.

You two completely ignored my point, and took it to the ugly side of what I was trying to say.
You didn’t attempt to read under the lines and actually try what I said, instead you jump into conclusions about me and the rest of the “community”. not knowing me at all or any of the people in the so called “Raiding community”.
This only shows how closed minded you are, & being so closed minded will probably put in in “group 3” as mentioned a few comments above us.

1. I never said you should join a group that does it regular, my whole comment was referring to PuG runs, I do PuG runs too.

2. I never said you should suck up abusive behavior, instead I mentioned how many nice people/groups I encounter who are willing to help (yes you will also find toxic people, unfortunately they exist everywhere, in: dungeons, fractals, raid and even in real life!)

3. I never said you will have to be forced into playing a role you don’t want, instead what I meant is that Raids are about TEAM play, every character has a role it does best therefore every group wants to assign this specific role to this specific character because it will make the run (which is already very hard to some people!) become easier. If you want to play a healer thief, it will probably not work. If you want to play Warrior and you joined a 9/10 group missing only a Tempest, getting kicked is your fault because they specifically asked for a Tempest, don’t blame the group!.

4. If you did not have the opportunity to train ,it’s OK and you deserve an opportunity to find a group just as much as anyone else. BUT: don’t join a group asking for very experienced people. many groups (even some good ones!) don’t require anything, join them instead, you will probably end up with a fun group with less\no toxic people, you will gain experience and maybe even succeed.

5. I never said you have to get full ascended. what I means is that you should do your best to get proper gear (with the right stats, don’t bring Nomad’s as a DPS role etc..) which is at least Exotic (you can can it very cheap with Karma or Badges of Honor, or Dungeons Tokens!!!). also Ascended is not that hard to get, Trinkets are buy able with laurels which you get by just logging in (!!) and from some other easy sources (Fractal Relics, Guild Commendations, Achievements…). Getting 1-2 weapons is also doable enough from achievements and drops (Tequatl, TT, PvP, WvW, Fractals…).

6. I never said you should invest 1000 hours a week and quit your job to succeed! I said you should be ready for a minimal time investment, you don’t just instantly become good enough to raid and clear it on the first try.
I am a student, on my second year, I don’t have endless time to play guild wars: I only play 1-2 hours every evening and a couple in the weekends, I know other people who have less time than me and they are still able to raid.

Do you think that if you bough the game everything should be handed to you on a silver spoon?
The “bar” is not set up high at all, the problem is you picture it too high and don’t listen to other opinions.