Keep Casuals and Raiders Separate
No my mentality is stuck in the 21st century of MMO gaming, and stuck in the mentality of having played half a dozen MMOs.
I’m going to go out of my way to assume that because you play half a dozen MMOs, you don’t really learn how to master your profession or maximize your build but rather get frustrated with one MMO’s hard content and than drift towards another. I understand that and I’m fine with that. If you are however really interested in raids and really want to get into it, send me an in-game message and I teach, prepare and provide you with a set of guides on how to overcome the raid content hurdle.
There’s room for everyone in raids.
What needs to happen is following:
The players that prefer meta only members need to respect the groups that say “any welcome” and not try to force them to go meta or get upset when things don’t go smoothly if they’re PUGing with a “any welcome” group.
The players who don’t want to follow the meta for whatever reason need to respect the groups that say meta only and not join them and lie about it.
And since “any welcome” would accept meta builds, if there’s any confusion assume meta only and ask if you’re not if it’s alright if you run X.
Both groups need to respect each other.
There’s room for everyone in raids.
What needs to happen is following:
The players that prefer meta only members need to respect the groups that say “any welcome” and not try to force them to go meta or get upset when things don’t go smoothly if they’re PUGing with a “any welcome” group.
The players who don’t want to follow the meta for whatever reason need to respect the groups that say meta only and not join them and lie about it.
And since “any welcome” would accept meta builds, if there’s any confusion assume meta only and ask if you’re not if it’s alright if you run X.
Both groups need to respect each other.
Ignore dirtbeard all his posts are complaints about raids despite him not able to kill one boss.
There’s room for everyone in raids.
What needs to happen is following:
The players that prefer meta only members need to respect the groups that say “any welcome” and not try to force them to go meta or get upset when things don’t go smoothly if they’re PUGing with a “any welcome” group.
The players who don’t want to follow the meta for whatever reason need to respect the groups that say meta only and not join them and lie about it.
And since “any welcome” would accept meta builds, if there’s any confusion assume meta only and ask if you’re not if it’s alright if you run X.
Both groups need to respect each other.
Ignore dirtbeard all his posts are complaints about raids despite him not able to kill one boss.
My post wasn’t just to him. The post was to the OP as well. Casuals and Raiders don’t need to be kept separate. They just need to respect each other and they’ll be able to coexist. On a slow day, a meta group may be willing to accept a single casual that’s honest about his/hear gear and experience with the raid. A casual group may learn a better strategy when a single meta player decides to PUG with casuals instead.
There’s room for everyone in raids.
What needs to happen is following:
The players that prefer meta only members need to respect the groups that say “any welcome” and not try to force them to go meta or get upset when things don’t go smoothly if they’re PUGing with a “any welcome” group.
The players who don’t want to follow the meta for whatever reason need to respect the groups that say meta only and not join them and lie about it.
And since “any welcome” would accept meta builds, if there’s any confusion assume meta only and ask if you’re not if it’s alright if you run X.
Both groups need to respect each other.
There’s rarely any “any welcome” LFG in raid queues but rather just the names of bosses and profession needed with an occasional requirement link here and there. Meta builds are there to provide a gateway for Casuals to get interested in raiding so they can get better acquainted with their profession in a stressed PvE environment. I’m ranting to elucidate the few Casuals that want to get into raids on how to better equip yourself and to provide more detail on where the toxicity is coming from. I’ve been on both ends, the times where I got rejected or kicked from a raid because I didn’t know what I was doing or the gear I had was inadequate enough to contribute towards the overall progress of the squad and the other side where being a prolific raider and trying to help Casuals get into raids but it just ends up turning virulent and toxic because Casuals don’t want to invest their time into crafting new gear, learning boss mechanics, watching guides, generally improving themselves.
There’s room for everyone in raids.
What needs to happen is following:
The players that prefer meta only members need to respect the groups that say “any welcome” and not try to force them to go meta or get upset when things don’t go smoothly if they’re PUGing with a “any welcome” group.
The players who don’t want to follow the meta for whatever reason need to respect the groups that say meta only and not join them and lie about it.
And since “any welcome” would accept meta builds, if there’s any confusion assume meta only and ask if you’re not if it’s alright if you run X.
Both groups need to respect each other.
Ignore dirtbeard all his posts are complaints about raids despite him not able to kill one boss.
My post wasn’t just to him. The post was to the OP as well. Casuals and Raiders don’t need to be kept separate. They just need to respect each other and they’ll be able to coexist. On a slow day, a meta group may be willing to accept a single casual that’s honest about his/hear gear and experience with the raid. A casual group may learn a better strategy when a single meta player decides to PUG with casuals instead.
Raiders and Casuals cannot exist when they both resent each other, one trying to help the Casuals learn how to improve themselves but facing a brick wall and the other, wanting the kill but not willing to invest the time into it. This is why I said they should be kept separate, to mitigate the amount of toxicity and hatred that’s fueling the raiding community. I’ve hosted myriad VG training sessions and majority of the time, I often get 3-4 raiders who just simply want to help out with 2-3 Casuals and another 2-3 Alt accounts (that get quickly replaced by people who just want kills and keep cycling through).
There’s room for everyone in raids.
What needs to happen is following:
The players that prefer meta only members need to respect the groups that say “any welcome” and not try to force them to go meta or get upset when things don’t go smoothly if they’re PUGing with a “any welcome” group.
The players who don’t want to follow the meta for whatever reason need to respect the groups that say meta only and not join them and lie about it.
And since “any welcome” would accept meta builds, if there’s any confusion assume meta only and ask if you’re not if it’s alright if you run X.
Both groups need to respect each other.
Ignore dirtbeard all his posts are complaints about raids despite him not able to kill one boss.
My post wasn’t just to him. The post was to the OP as well. Casuals and Raiders don’t need to be kept separate. They just need to respect each other and they’ll be able to coexist. On a slow day, a meta group may be willing to accept a single casual that’s honest about his/hear gear and experience with the raid. A casual group may learn a better strategy when a single meta player decides to PUG with casuals instead.
Raiders and Casuals cannot exist when they both resent each other, one trying to help the Casuals learn how to improve themselves but facing a brick wall and the other, wanting the kill but not willing to invest the time into it. This is why I said they should be kept separate, to mitigate the amount of toxicity and hatred that’s fueling the raiding community. I’ve hosted myriad VG training sessions and majority of the time, I often get 3-4 raiders who just simply want to help out with 2-3 Casuals and another 2-3 Alt accounts (that get quickly replaced by people who just want kills and keep cycling through).
Like I said, both groups need to respect the other and then they’ll be able to coexist.
And you’re assuming that all casuals don’t respect the desires of those who prefer the meta. And that’s not respectful to the casuals that do respect those desires. Those casuals should not be prohibited from joining on meta raid groups (and being honest about not being meta and what their experience level is) just because of the casuals who do not respect the desires of those who prefer meta.
As Somone else who also trains people in raids, I don’t expect people to know the fight right off the bat, but I do expect them to bring the right tools for the job and not waste everyone’s time, this includes meta builds and exotic gear. If you won’t show willingness to adapt to benefit everyone, I don’t want to train you
It makes me mad whenever I try to help out Casuals that they don’t bother to invest their time and effort into improving their gear or ignoring mechanics. Especially infuriating when after multiple sessions, they just give up. The raiding community is more than willing to help Casuals get into raids, but they have to put in the effort and time to learn in order to become a better gamer. Otherwise, please stop complaining about the implementation of dps meters, reducing the difficulty of raids, or any of the crying to Anet. We’re more than willing to teach and help you out if you bother to actually invest the time like we did into improving yourselves.
It really bothers me that people see nothing wrong when you gotta repeatedly use terms like ‘invest time and effort’ to refer to an activity as trivial as gaming.
To be fair, that’s basically what I’ve done for a lot of content, including raids. But when the crux of the anti-easy mode/casual raid arguments boils down to ‘you gotta waste a bunch of time doing a bunch of stuff you won’t enjoy but I swear it’ll get better eventually’, I think there’s a real problem with the content.
Everyone has different views on what makes for a suitable effort : reward ratio. I’ve seen some videos where people were ecstatic after their first boss kill after trying for hours. Wasn’t like that for me. My first successful VG was more along the lines of “I spent two hours in here for this kitten???”.
We’re definitely at a point where anyone who wants to beat these raids should know what they’re getting into. Lots of people think they can hack it but really can’t. Lots more will just lose interest and bugger off.
‘Every casual wanna raid but nobody wanna be a raider.’ Until these people get what they want, expect the complaints to continue.
I won’t want to separate casuals and raiders because often members of both groups find out each are one and the same. There are casual raiders who enjoy the Raid content at their own speed, regardless of how fast some of their peers may fly through it. Being able to keep consistently raiding in GW2 only serves to benefit as weekly you earn currency to be able to earn unique rewards and upgrade your gear, even if you aren’t immediately progressing at that time.
Taking a high horse in either instance serves no one. For casuals who are willing to commit the time, they will see their efforts rewarded eventually. For raiders who continue to bring along the new folks, they will see the raiding community florish.
There’s a great deal of potential for GW2 to be the FIRST MMO to actually flesh out the raiding community without sacrificing the authenticity and difficulty of raiding to do so, like other raiding MMOs have.
Suicidal Warrior.
Putting Perspective on Zerg Sizes since 2012. Common Suffixes for 40+ include ~Zilla and ~Train
“Seriously, just dodge.”
Putting Perspective on Zerg Sizes since 2012. Common Suffixes for 40+ include ~Zilla and ~Train
“Seriously, just dodge.”
It makes me mad whenever I try to help out Casuals that they don’t bother to invest their time and effort into improving their gear or ignoring mechanics. Especially infuriating when after multiple sessions, they just give up. The raiding community is more than willing to help Casuals get into raids, but they have to put in the effort and time to learn in order to become a better gamer. Otherwise, please stop complaining about the implementation of dps meters, reducing the difficulty of raids, or any of the crying to Anet. We’re more than willing to teach and help you out if you bother to actually invest the time like we did into improving yourselves.
It really bothers me that people see nothing wrong when you gotta repeatedly use terms like ‘invest time and effort’ to refer to an activity as trivial as gaming.
To be fair, that’s basically what I’ve done for a lot of content, including raids. But when the crux of the anti-easy mode/casual raid arguments boils down to ‘you gotta waste a bunch of time doing a bunch of stuff you won’t enjoy but I swear it’ll get better eventually’, I think there’s a real problem with the content.
Everyone has different views on what makes for a suitable effort : reward ratio. I’ve seen some videos where people were ecstatic after their first boss kill after trying for hours. Wasn’t like that for me. My first successful VG was more along the lines of “I spent two hours in here for this kitten???”.
We’re definitely at a point where anyone who wants to beat these raids should know what they’re getting into. Lots of people think they can hack it but really can’t. Lots more will just lose interest and bugger off.
‘Every casual wanna raid but nobody wanna be a raider.’ Until these people get what they want, expect the complaints to continue.
I don’t think those that think of gaming as trivial would actually bother with raid content. I’m talking specifically about those that have an avid interest towards raids and want to learn, which I would greatly enjoy teaching as long as they follow the Meta, which many people have painstakingly studied, tested and refined that practically serves as a guide for newcomers.
Your definition of enjoyment is certainly different from many other perspectives. What I relish isn’t the reward but the fight and being able to actively become a team with my members, relying on them to handle boss mechanics and when we kill it as a “team”, that feeling of accomplishing something that you cannot do alone is what I’m after. If you have not killed Deimos or fought him before (the last boss in wing 4), then you do not comprehend how enjoyable it is when everyone works together to kill the boss. The reward is always RNG and those that strive for loot and efficiency is only but a portion of the raid community.
So I do not care and have given up hope on the Casuals that resent raids because of its difficulty and they can complain all they want. What I want to find are the small gems of people who are willing to invest “time and effort” into bettering themselves in an MMORPG and enjoy being able to find good quality teammates in random groups and spending time and coordination to kill a boss. (They can even join static guilds and try Low-man or different professions such as Turret Engi’s in Sabetha or dps thief in Slothasor)
@Jubilan: Does/should Anet actually think like this though? It is ok for you to believe gaming is not a trivial activity. There is real sense of teamwork in doing something for so long that you get in synch with your teammates and can accomplish what none of you could by your own. I do believe it is just as rewarding as any other teamwork stuff that most people would also not consider “trivial”. However, Anet does recognize there is an accessibility issue, and it lies precisely within that mentality.
You see, concerning most things, most people are not willing to give up their leisure to go for a big shot at anything really. Committing “time and effort” is just as uncommon ingame as it is everywhere else. But Anet depends on people committing, because their revenue lies upon players being there for the gem store (dailies help a lot with keeping people in, for example). That doesn’t mean people do not want to obtain the results from that time and effort either. They just can’t be kittened to do it for some kind of gaming sense of teamwork (on top of having cared about whatever else during the rest of the day as well). As you said yourself, there is nothing wrong with that, but still, there kinda is, if you’re on Anet and wish that everyone was more engaged with your game.
What I’m getting at is: the raid population will spread out as more raids release, and many will not be as thrilled as you for so long, and will leave; you said it yourself that there are few gems out there wanting to commit and start raiding, and these people might not be enough to make for a healthy influx of new raiders. Assuming the trend continues, raids then are a dying mode, even starting from its conception. So what can Anet do? They are already trying something with the help of Fractal team: nightmare T4 is definitely a stepping stone, and the challenge mode is a full blown 5-man mini raid. This still did not translate into clear growth yet (at least from my US time LFG anedoctal experience!), and if it doesn’t work at all, what would be the next step? Bear in mind, whatever we think about people and their expectations won’t help much here. What Anet has to ask themselves is what to do regardless of what people think right now (e.g I don’t want to train/change my build).
There’s room for everyone in raids.
What needs to happen is following:
The players that prefer meta only members need to respect the groups that say “any welcome” and not try to force them to go meta or get upset when things don’t go smoothly if they’re PUGing with a “any welcome” group.
The players who don’t want to follow the meta for whatever reason need to respect the groups that say meta only and not join them and lie about it.
And since “any welcome” would accept meta builds, if there’s any confusion assume meta only and ask if you’re not if it’s alright if you run X.
Both groups need to respect each other.
^^^This!
On top of that, people need to be able to communicate and not just jump into a group and hope no one notices that somethings wrong. I’m a novice with only 3 legendary insights and no meta builds (working on a mesmer though). Every time I join a group, I state that fact to make sure everything is okay and I don’t waste anyone’s time, most of all mine.
The raiding community is more than willing to help Casuals get into raids, but they have to put in the effort and time to learn in order to become a better gamer.
Yes, that’s the core of the problem. You’re willing to help casuals, but only if that means they will stop being casuals.
You ask casuals to stay away from you, but in the end it’s you that should be kept away from them. Which, in the end, is not what this game should be all about. What you’re talking about is creating a split in the community. Any such split can only poison the game.
In the end, what really needs to happen is the exact opposite. We need to seek ways to make raiders and casuals to be able to coexist together without one side trying to force the other one to change.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Your goal should be finding out those who want to be more serious raiders out of the casuals. This is a very realistic and meaningful goal. You do not need to be super hard-core to beat any of the raids.
The raiding community is more than willing to help Casuals get into raids, but they have to put in the effort and time to learn in order to become a better gamer.
Yes, that’s the core of the problem. You’re willing to help casuals, but only if that means they will stop being casuals.
You ask casuals to stay away from you, but in the end it’s you that should be kept away from them. Which, in the end, is not what this game should be all about. What you’re talking about is creating a split in the community. Any such split can only poison the game.
In the end, what really needs to happen is the exact opposite. We need to seek ways to make raiders and casuals to be able to coexist together without one side trying to force the other one to change.
I really don’t see that as the core of the problem. You’re saying that just because one is expected to learn something about the game, they are no longer casual? It makes perfect sense that to do raids, people who have no experience still have to learn it.
Raids are supposed to be challenging content, and anyone who walks into a raid and refuses to learn it is wasting everyone’s time or asking to get carried through it.
There’s nothing wrong with helping casual players become better at the game, assuming these casual players want to raid. If you don’t want to become better at the game and challenge yourself, then don’t raid. If you want to raid, you’d be willing to dedicate a certain amount of your time to learning these raids, and there will be resource like raid trainers who would very willingly and kindly help you with becoming a better player so you can finish the raids.
There’s room for everyone in raids.
What needs to happen is following:
The players that prefer meta only members need to respect the groups that say “any welcome” and not try to force them to go meta or get upset when things don’t go smoothly if they’re PUGing with a “any welcome” group.
The players who don’t want to follow the meta for whatever reason need to respect the groups that say meta only and not join them and lie about it.
And since “any welcome” would accept meta builds, if there’s any confusion assume meta only and ask if you’re not if it’s alright if you run X.
Both groups need to respect each other.
That would be the reasonable (and utopian?) approach, but I’d like to expand it with one aspect. People in both groups should be very aware of which group they belong to. In my experience from other games, there are too many people who think they’re the greatest raiders when in reality they just suck. Similar problems occur when people with a (hidden) hardcore mentality join more casual groups.
Warning! This post may contain traces of irony, sarcasm and peanuts.
There is no loyalty without betrayal. -Ann Smiley
There is no loyalty without betrayal. -Ann Smiley
There’s room for everyone in raids.
What needs to happen is following:
The players that prefer meta only members need to respect the groups that say “any welcome” and not try to force them to go meta or get upset when things don’t go smoothly if they’re PUGing with a “any welcome” group.
The players who don’t want to follow the meta for whatever reason need to respect the groups that say meta only and not join them and lie about it.
And since “any welcome” would accept meta builds, if there’s any confusion assume meta only and ask if you’re not if it’s alright if you run X.
Both groups need to respect each other.
Ignore dirtbeard all his posts are complaints about raids despite him not able to kill one boss.
Let’s clarify something, I have no problems with Raids.
I used to raid very frequently in WoW before there ever was a Raid Finder, in Rift I stopped being hardcore so much and basically just did Raid Rifts since quite frankly the real world responsibilities from work and being married kind of makes being part of a static raid group something for 20 something year olds. single people, or frankly people that don’t like their families and put raiding first.
With that said a lot of the SMART MMO studios made Tiered Raiding for their aging demographic that have to put things like real life first, so that can still have a taste of something that they used to enjoy.
I also enjoy the fact that most MMOs have a place for all of their classes in the End Game, granted they might not be part of Progression Tier but hey for lower Tiered Raids any class is usually welcome; hell even Rift figured that out recently.
Now I don’t like raiding in this game because of shoddy class balancing that makes Eltist Jerks banish whole classes and 90% of builds from Raiding.
It is archaic, if you go to MMO blogs like Massively even the writers in the articles comments sections are mocking the way things are run in this game by the Devs and the Community.
I support Raids, I just don’t support anything that’s a haphazard mess held together with Duct Tape while having every one enamored with it claiming it’s a Lamborghini.
Where do i sign for this 1337 raiding university to be coooool enough for raids. I need to get my degree of a raider so i wont be a casual.
But seriously you are killing a scripted NPC, 5 months of practicing for that? Difficulty of the raid is pretty casual itself the only problem is the LI req because hey i play the game longer so that means im better right. If only PvP had the same measurement of skill as PvE, that would be funny.
Both require each other to exist. Without casuals, hardcore people wouldn’t exist, and without hardcore, casual wouldn’t be a thing.
This thread is redundant.
Oldirtbeard.9834 in no way is your criticm actually related to raids then. Your criticism is that not all builds are equally useful. This is highlighted by raids, because raids are challenging content that require at least some degree of thought put into builds.
Your complaint is balance, all of your complaints would apply to fractal 100 CM too.
I experienced this with my other guild of casuals too.
Up until a certain point, they basically just said “kitten raids, we’re never doing it as a guild ever again”. Then, one by one, players started expressing interest in wanting to raid, so I introduced those players to guilds that do training raids, and they participated in a few, time permitting. Eventually, I became experienced to the point of feeling comfortable leading training raids, so I started one up to see if there would be any interest in it, and I got maybe 5 players who could definitely commit to a consistent time.
Together, we managed to defeat VG, Sloth, Trio, and Escort. We could have defeated Gorseval and KC with effort. Some of them went on to raid with other groups and successfully killed Gorseval and attempted Sabetha, killed Matthias, etc.
All of this was in the space of maybe 4-5 weeks.
I stopped doing training raids myself, and let two other experienced players in the guild take over. About 2-3 weeks ago, we started a raid workshop session focused entirely on builds and improving DPS, and we stayed on the golem for most of it before doing a few VG pulls.
We only did that once. The player who started the workshops … decided that someone in the group was being too elitist, and decided not to participate in raids ever again. She hasn’t given me a full explanation, so I’m not entirely certain what triggered it (apparently, I wasn’t the one being elitist).
The two players I know who still run training raids for that guild can usually only get 2 players from the guild to join, filling the rest with PUGs. This basically brings us back to the early days of raiding, when I was still an active member of that guild, and another guild of friends ran training raids for us (I got my first VG kill from that before becoming discouraged and returning months later to raid seriously).
The biggest problem I see is, the people I train do expect to be carried. Few took the initiative to seek out a consistent group and get consistent clears, despite me giving them every avenue to do so. This is true for every other person I know who does training raids.
dude… we try to get “Casuals” into raiding not push them away, dont make any raider look like a kitten
I used to raid very frequently in WoW before there ever was a Raid Finder, in Rift I stopped being hardcore so much and basically just did Raid Rifts since quite frankly the real world responsibilities from work and being married kind of makes being part of a static raid group something for 20 something year olds. single people, or frankly people that don’t like their families and put raiding first.
Question: With regard to time requirements, commitment etc.., how exactly are raids different from other hobbies, e.g. being part of some sports team? Thinking of such stuff, I don’t find your rant convincing in any way.
Warning! This post may contain traces of irony, sarcasm and peanuts.
There is no loyalty without betrayal. -Ann Smiley
There is no loyalty without betrayal. -Ann Smiley
The raiding community is more than willing to help Casuals get into raids, but they have to put in the effort and time to learn in order to become a better gamer.
Yes, that’s the core of the problem. You’re willing to help casuals, but only if that means they will stop being casuals.
You ask casuals to stay away from you, but in the end it’s you that should be kept away from them. Which, in the end, is not what this game should be all about. What you’re talking about is creating a split in the community. Any such split can only poison the game.
In the end, what really needs to happen is the exact opposite. We need to seek ways to make raiders and casuals to be able to coexist together without one side trying to force the other one to change.
I really don’t see that as the core of the problem. You’re saying that just because one is expected to learn something about the game, they are no longer casual? It makes perfect sense that to do raids, people who have no experience still have to learn it.
Raids are supposed to be challenging content, and anyone who walks into a raid and refuses to learn it is wasting everyone’s time or asking to get carried through it.There’s nothing wrong with helping casual players become better at the game, assuming these casual players want to raid. If you don’t want to become better at the game and challenge yourself, then don’t raid. If you want to raid, you’d be willing to dedicate a certain amount of your time to learning these raids, and there will be resource like raid trainers who would very willingly and kindly help you with becoming a better player so you can finish the raids.
His problem is the OP wants to train others but only if they are willing to stop being casual because according to the OP casuals and raiders can’t be put together.
Where do i sign for this 1337 raiding university to be coooool enough for raids. I need to get my degree of a raider so i wont be a casual.
But seriously you are killing a scripted NPC, 5 months of practicing for that? Difficulty of the raid is pretty casual itself the only problem is the LI req because hey i play the game longer so that means im better right. If only PvP had the same measurement of skill as PvE, that would be funny.
I spent 5 months by myself learning how to raid, gearing myself to be better equipped, learning which composition works, failing many times, getting cursed out by elitists because I didn’t know or have the right gear or builds. I was alone for those 5 months, until I decided that I’ve hit a brick wall with Matthias so I joined a raid guild to help me progress further. I’m not looking to find the people who would subject themselves to this much grueling effort but I want to find those who think similar so I can encourage them and support them to increase the population of raiders who can in turn try to teach Casuals and this would lead to a cascading effect. But with Anet’s marketing approach of marketing the game as noob-friendly, they give Casuals that expectation that raids should be noob-friendly as well. That is what I find is poisoning the community because Casuals are like the masses that were fed singular expectation and when their expectations don’t hold up, they alienate that content.
Where do i sign for this 1337 raiding university to be coooool enough for raids. I need to get my degree of a raider so i wont be a casual.
But seriously you are killing a scripted NPC, 5 months of practicing for that? Difficulty of the raid is pretty casual itself the only problem is the LI req because hey i play the game longer so that means im better right. If only PvP had the same measurement of skill as PvE, that would be funny.
I spent 5 months by myself learning how to raid, gearing myself to be better equipped, learning which composition works, failing many times, getting cursed out by elitists because I didn’t know or have the right gear or builds. I was alone for those 5 months, until I decided that I’ve hit a brick wall with Matthias so I joined a raid guild to help me progress further. I’m not looking to find the people who would subject themselves to this much grueling effort but I want to find those who think similar so I can encourage them and support them to increase the population of raiders who can in turn try to teach Casuals and this would lead to a cascading effect. But with Anet’s marketing approach of marketing the game as noob-friendly, they give Casuals that expectation that raids should be noob-friendly as well. That is what I find is poisoning the community because Casuals are like the masses that were fed singular expectation and when their expectations don’t hold up, they alienate that content.
And raids were not advertised as easy content. They were advertised as challenging content.
And stop assuming that all Casuals are trying to turn raids into easy content. They’re not. How do I know? Because I’m a casual and I’m not trying to turn raids into easy content.
Casuals can be Raiders and Raiders can be Casuals. Just because one raids does not mean one is not casual and that if you’re casual you can’t raid.
There’s room for everyone in raids.
What needs to happen is following:
The players that prefer meta only members need to respect the groups that say “any welcome” and not try to force them to go meta or get upset when things don’t go smoothly if they’re PUGing with a “any welcome” group.
The players who don’t want to follow the meta for whatever reason need to respect the groups that say meta only and not join them and lie about it.
And since “any welcome” would accept meta builds, if there’s any confusion assume meta only and ask if you’re not if it’s alright if you run X.
Both groups need to respect each other.
That would be the reasonable (and utopian?) approach, but I’d like to expand it with one aspect. People in both groups should be very aware of which group they belong to. In my experience from other games, there are too many people who think they’re the greatest raiders when in reality they just suck. Similar problems occur when people with a (hidden) hardcore mentality join more casual groups.
That is almost impossible as those who use the forums are commonly those who would like to invest their time into improving the community. The vast majority of Casuals and even some Raiders | PvP | WvW players do not read the forums as often. The only way for that approach to work where both sides respect each other is if there was a newspaper within the game that would elucidate the topics on the forums but that’s unrealistic so in the end we’re stuck with a small community on the forums trying to resolve issues that are impossible to resolve because the information isn’t being shared across the entire gaming community. So in the end, you have Casuals who don’t know what they’re doing, don’t care and want to play the game their way but often clashing with Raiders who want swift and efficient clears but don’t give any care about training others because they have other things to do (playing another game, studying, work, real life issues). And in-between the maliciousness of the two are a fraction of players who want to help and support Casuals while also be able to fulfill the needs of Raiders are kind enough to help but also want the kill. (the kind between swift clears but are patient enough to help others)
I even tried to find a solution by joining mega guilds or small knit communities to try to support them but the toxicity and resentment of Casuals hating raids because of their encounters with elitists or simply their adamant desire to play the way they want “Because it’s a game” serves as the barrier that prevent people from enjoying this challenging content.
Let me define what I mean by Casual.
Casual is someone who has done all or most of other content other than Raids. They want to get into raids because it might be fun to tackle. They have some or no experience with raiding but they are willing to learn.
Raiders is someone who has experience with raids, understands the meta (augments it here and there aka, I’m going to go all Minstrel Chrono! when the meta from qt does Zerker or Commanders) and generally wants to improve the overall experience of raids. (wing 4 for example, was well done imo because some of the bosses, it was a mechanical fight instead of the boss like Gorseval where the DPS check is ridiculously high)
There’s room for everyone in raids.
What needs to happen is following:
The players that prefer meta only members need to respect the groups that say “any welcome” and not try to force them to go meta or get upset when things don’t go smoothly if they’re PUGing with a “any welcome” group.
The players who don’t want to follow the meta for whatever reason need to respect the groups that say meta only and not join them and lie about it.
And since “any welcome” would accept meta builds, if there’s any confusion assume meta only and ask if you’re not if it’s alright if you run X.
Both groups need to respect each other.
That would be the reasonable (and utopian?) approach, but I’d like to expand it with one aspect. People in both groups should be very aware of which group they belong to. In my experience from other games, there are too many people who think they’re the greatest raiders when in reality they just suck. Similar problems occur when people with a (hidden) hardcore mentality join more casual groups.
That is almost impossible as those who use the forums are commonly those who would like to invest their time into improving the community. The vast majority of Casuals and even some Raiders | PvP | WvW players do not read the forums as often. The only way for that approach to work where both sides respect each other is if there was a newspaper within the game that would elucidate the topics on the forums but that’s unrealistic so in the end we’re stuck with a small community on the forums trying to resolve issues that are impossible to resolve because the information isn’t being shared across the entire gaming community. So in the end, you have Casuals who don’t know what they’re doing, don’t care and want to play the game their way but often clashing with Raiders who want swift and efficient clears but don’t give any care about training others because they have other things to do (playing another game, studying, work, real life issues). And in-between the maliciousness of the two are a fraction of players who want to help and support Casuals while also be able to fulfill the needs of Raiders are kind enough to help but also want the kill. (the kind between swift clears but are patient enough to help others)
I even tried to find a solution by joining mega guilds or small knit communities to try to support them but the toxicity and resentment of Casuals hating raids because of their encounters with elitists or simply their adamant desire to play the way they want “Because it’s a game” serves as the barrier that prevent people from enjoying this challenging content.
And you’re just as bad as the extremists on either side. You’re saying that because there will always be a minority of toxic players on either side, that the two sides should be split by the game. That’s just as bad.
You should be trying to get the non-toxic players to step up and help out and call out the toxic players by reporting them when they cross the line and/or not raiding with them. So that those toxic players either have to play with others who are toxic or change their attitude.
Let me define what I mean by Casual.
Casual is someone who has done all or most of other content other than Raids. They want to get into raids because it might be fun to tackle. They have some or no experience with raiding but they are willing to learn.
Raiders is someone who has experience with raids, understands the meta (augments it here and there aka, I’m going to go all Minstrel Chrono! when the meta from qt does Zerker or Commanders) and generally wants to improve the overall experience of raids. (wing 4 for example, was well done imo because some of the bosses, it was a mechanical fight instead of the boss like Gorseval where the DPS check is ridiculously high)
And those two groups should never be kept separate. The Raiders help the Casuals by teaching them how to to do the raid. The Casuals help the Raiders by increasing their numbers.
They should never be kept separate due to the toxic portions of those groups.
dude… we try to get “Casuals” into raiding not push them away, dont make any raider look like a kitten
Many experienced raiders try very hard to introduce raiding to “casuals”. However, we can only do so much without crossing the line to hand-holding.
Let me define what I mean by Casual.
Casual is someone who has done all or most of other content other than Raids. They want to get into raids because it might be fun to tackle. They have some or no experience with raiding but they are willing to learn.
I would not describe these players as casual. Casual to raiding perhaps, but not casual overall. A willingness to learn something new separates these players from actual casuals: the ones who want to always play their own way.
(edited by Rashy.4165)
Let me define what I mean by Casual.
Casual is someone who has done all or most of other content other than Raids. They want to get into raids because it might be fun to tackle. They have some or no experience with raiding but they are willing to learn.
Raiders is someone who has experience with raids, understands the meta (augments it here and there aka, I’m going to go all Minstrel Chrono! when the meta from qt does Zerker or Commanders) and generally wants to improve the overall experience of raids. (wing 4 for example, was well done imo because some of the bosses, it was a mechanical fight instead of the boss like Gorseval where the DPS check is ridiculously high)
Am I missing a “not” with regard to casuals willing to learn? Because with this definition, I cannot see the big problems. On the contrary, that kind of casual would appear pretty reasonable and a good addition to the entire raiding community.
Warning! This post may contain traces of irony, sarcasm and peanuts.
There is no loyalty without betrayal. -Ann Smiley
There is no loyalty without betrayal. -Ann Smiley
The raiding community is more than willing to help Casuals get into raids, but they have to put in the effort and time to learn in order to become a better gamer.
Yes, that’s the core of the problem. You’re willing to help casuals, but only if that means they will stop being casuals.
You ask casuals to stay away from you, but in the end it’s you that should be kept away from them. Which, in the end, is not what this game should be all about. What you’re talking about is creating a split in the community. Any such split can only poison the game.
In the end, what really needs to happen is the exact opposite. We need to seek ways to make raiders and casuals to be able to coexist together without one side trying to force the other one to change.
I really don’t see that as the core of the problem. You’re saying that just because one is expected to learn something about the game, they are no longer casual? It makes perfect sense that to do raids, people who have no experience still have to learn it.
Raids are supposed to be challenging content, and anyone who walks into a raid and refuses to learn it is wasting everyone’s time or asking to get carried through it.There’s nothing wrong with helping casual players become better at the game, assuming these casual players want to raid. If you don’t want to become better at the game and challenge yourself, then don’t raid. If you want to raid, you’d be willing to dedicate a certain amount of your time to learning these raids, and there will be resource like raid trainers who would very willingly and kindly help you with becoming a better player so you can finish the raids.
His problem is the OP wants to train others but only if they are willing to stop being casual because according to the OP casuals and raiders can’t be put together.
I dont think that learning how to complete a boss fight as part of a team means that you are not a casual player.
The raiding community is more than willing to help Casuals get into raids, but they have to put in the effort and time to learn in order to become a better gamer.
Yes, that’s the core of the problem. You’re willing to help casuals, but only if that means they will stop being casuals.
You ask casuals to stay away from you, but in the end it’s you that should be kept away from them. Which, in the end, is not what this game should be all about. What you’re talking about is creating a split in the community. Any such split can only poison the game.
In the end, what really needs to happen is the exact opposite. We need to seek ways to make raiders and casuals to be able to coexist together without one side trying to force the other one to change.
I really don’t see that as the core of the problem. You’re saying that just because one is expected to learn something about the game, they are no longer casual? It makes perfect sense that to do raids, people who have no experience still have to learn it.
Raids are supposed to be challenging content, and anyone who walks into a raid and refuses to learn it is wasting everyone’s time or asking to get carried through it.There’s nothing wrong with helping casual players become better at the game, assuming these casual players want to raid. If you don’t want to become better at the game and challenge yourself, then don’t raid. If you want to raid, you’d be willing to dedicate a certain amount of your time to learning these raids, and there will be resource like raid trainers who would very willingly and kindly help you with becoming a better player so you can finish the raids.
His problem is the OP wants to train others but only if they are willing to stop being casual because according to the OP casuals and raiders can’t be put together.
I dont think that learning how to complete a boss fight as part of a team means that you are not a casual player.
I don’t either. The OP seems to think that based on his first post.
Run off meta pugs all week. It’s great and casual. HOWEVER people must be experienced or kitten won’t get done. Noobies stick to the meta the experienced guys run all sorts of cool kitten man ????
The raiding community is more than willing to help Casuals get into raids, but they have to put in the effort and time to learn in order to become a better gamer.
Yes, that’s the core of the problem. You’re willing to help casuals, but only if that means they will stop being casuals.
You ask casuals to stay away from you, but in the end it’s you that should be kept away from them. Which, in the end, is not what this game should be all about. What you’re talking about is creating a split in the community. Any such split can only poison the game.
In the end, what really needs to happen is the exact opposite. We need to seek ways to make raiders and casuals to be able to coexist together without one side trying to force the other one to change.
I really don’t see that as the core of the problem. You’re saying that just because one is expected to learn something about the game, they are no longer casual? It makes perfect sense that to do raids, people who have no experience still have to learn it.
Raids are supposed to be challenging content, and anyone who walks into a raid and refuses to learn it is wasting everyone’s time or asking to get carried through it.There’s nothing wrong with helping casual players become better at the game, assuming these casual players want to raid. If you don’t want to become better at the game and challenge yourself, then don’t raid. If you want to raid, you’d be willing to dedicate a certain amount of your time to learning these raids, and there will be resource like raid trainers who would very willingly and kindly help you with becoming a better player so you can finish the raids.
His problem is the OP wants to train others but only if they are willing to stop being casual because according to the OP casuals and raiders can’t be put together.
I dont think that learning how to complete a boss fight as part of a team means that you are not a casual player.
Learning to complete a boss fight means there must be roles you have to fulfill to successfully defeat the boss. But sometimes Casuals who are comfortable playing a profession geared with decent toughness and dps may sometimes become the tank but they are ranged. Using logic, having a ranged tank is fundamentally incompatible as the tank will be constantly moving around as this person incorporates their general PvE playstyle into fighting the boss, effectively messing around with the mechanics of the boss or causing a wipe because there’s not enough time to kill the boss.
That’s why I want to separate Casuals from Raiders. If you want to waste other people’s time testing out various builds with 9 other Casuals while not fully comprehending or maximizing your profession, fine. But don’t waste other people’s time when you have a commander’s tag without knowing what the hell you are doing and aren’t open to criticism and then rage or be toxic to your peers simply because you couldn’t kill the boss.
The raiding community is more than willing to help Casuals get into raids, but they have to put in the effort and time to learn in order to become a better gamer.
Yes, that’s the core of the problem. You’re willing to help casuals, but only if that means they will stop being casuals.
You ask casuals to stay away from you, but in the end it’s you that should be kept away from them. Which, in the end, is not what this game should be all about. What you’re talking about is creating a split in the community. Any such split can only poison the game.
In the end, what really needs to happen is the exact opposite. We need to seek ways to make raiders and casuals to be able to coexist together without one side trying to force the other one to change.
I really don’t see that as the core of the problem. You’re saying that just because one is expected to learn something about the game, they are no longer casual? It makes perfect sense that to do raids, people who have no experience still have to learn it.
Raids are supposed to be challenging content, and anyone who walks into a raid and refuses to learn it is wasting everyone’s time or asking to get carried through it.There’s nothing wrong with helping casual players become better at the game, assuming these casual players want to raid. If you don’t want to become better at the game and challenge yourself, then don’t raid. If you want to raid, you’d be willing to dedicate a certain amount of your time to learning these raids, and there will be resource like raid trainers who would very willingly and kindly help you with becoming a better player so you can finish the raids.
His problem is the OP wants to train others but only if they are willing to stop being casual because according to the OP casuals and raiders can’t be put together.
I dont think that learning how to complete a boss fight as part of a team means that you are not a casual player.
Learning to complete a boss fight means there must be roles you have to fulfill to successfully defeat the boss. But sometimes Casuals who are comfortable playing a profession geared with decent toughness and dps may sometimes become the tank but they are ranged. Using logic, having a ranged tank is fundamentally incompatible as the tank will be constantly moving around as this person incorporates their general PvE playstyle into fighting the boss, effectively messing around with the mechanics of the boss or causing a wipe because there’s not enough time to kill the boss.
That’s why I want to separate Casuals from Raiders. If you want to waste other people’s time testing out various builds with 9 other Casuals while not fully comprehending or maximizing your profession, fine. But don’t waste other people’s time when you have a commander’s tag without knowing what the hell you are doing and aren’t open to criticism and then rage or be toxic to your peers simply because you couldn’t kill the boss.
Just because there are a few casuals who do not wish to learn Raids and want to force Raiders to carry them does not mean all casuals have to be separated from Raiders.
Stop assuming that all casuals are toxic individuals who just want to be carried through raids without learning the mechanics.
Edit: You defined Casual as those players willing to learn. How can they learn if they aren’t allowed to be with the experienced players?
The raiding community is more than willing to help Casuals get into raids, but they have to put in the effort and time to learn in order to become a better gamer.
Yes, that’s the core of the problem. You’re willing to help casuals, but only if that means they will stop being casuals.
You ask casuals to stay away from you, but in the end it’s you that should be kept away from them. Which, in the end, is not what this game should be all about. What you’re talking about is creating a split in the community. Any such split can only poison the game.
In the end, what really needs to happen is the exact opposite. We need to seek ways to make raiders and casuals to be able to coexist together without one side trying to force the other one to change.
I really don’t see that as the core of the problem. You’re saying that just because one is expected to learn something about the game, they are no longer casual? It makes perfect sense that to do raids, people who have no experience still have to learn it.
Raids are supposed to be challenging content, and anyone who walks into a raid and refuses to learn it is wasting everyone’s time or asking to get carried through it.There’s nothing wrong with helping casual players become better at the game, assuming these casual players want to raid. If you don’t want to become better at the game and challenge yourself, then don’t raid. If you want to raid, you’d be willing to dedicate a certain amount of your time to learning these raids, and there will be resource like raid trainers who would very willingly and kindly help you with becoming a better player so you can finish the raids.
His problem is the OP wants to train others but only if they are willing to stop being casual because according to the OP casuals and raiders can’t be put together.
I dont think that learning how to complete a boss fight as part of a team means that you are not a casual player.
Learning to complete a boss fight means there must be roles you have to fulfill to successfully defeat the boss. But sometimes Casuals who are comfortable playing a profession geared with decent toughness and dps may sometimes become the tank but they are ranged. Using logic, having a ranged tank is fundamentally incompatible as the tank will be constantly moving around as this person incorporates their general PvE playstyle into fighting the boss, effectively messing around with the mechanics of the boss or causing a wipe because there’s not enough time to kill the boss.
That’s why I want to separate Casuals from Raiders. If you want to waste other people’s time testing out various builds with 9 other Casuals while not fully comprehending or maximizing your profession, fine. But don’t waste other people’s time when you have a commander’s tag without knowing what the hell you are doing and aren’t open to criticism and then rage or be toxic to your peers simply because you couldn’t kill the boss.
Thats not a difference between casual and hardcore or raider. Its a matter of being a team player. Casuals can be great team players every bit as much as hardcore or raiders can be bad team players.
I am not, currently, a raider in this game but I do enjoy team based content, PVE and PVP, here and elsewhere. Some of my best experiences have been working with casual players and some of my worst experiences have been with hardcore players. And vice versa of course.
I understand how you feel, but keeping groups of people separate is never a good idea. look at history.
Team Deathmatch for PvP – Raise the AoE cap for WvW – More unique events for PvE
The raiding community is more than willing to help Casuals get into raids, but they have to put in the effort and time to learn in order to become a better gamer.
Yes, that’s the core of the problem. You’re willing to help casuals, but only if that means they will stop being casuals.
You ask casuals to stay away from you, but in the end it’s you that should be kept away from them. Which, in the end, is not what this game should be all about. What you’re talking about is creating a split in the community. Any such split can only poison the game.
In the end, what really needs to happen is the exact opposite. We need to seek ways to make raiders and casuals to be able to coexist together without one side trying to force the other one to change.
I really don’t see that as the core of the problem. You’re saying that just because one is expected to learn something about the game, they are no longer casual? It makes perfect sense that to do raids, people who have no experience still have to learn it.
Raids are supposed to be challenging content, and anyone who walks into a raid and refuses to learn it is wasting everyone’s time or asking to get carried through it.There’s nothing wrong with helping casual players become better at the game, assuming these casual players want to raid. If you don’t want to become better at the game and challenge yourself, then don’t raid. If you want to raid, you’d be willing to dedicate a certain amount of your time to learning these raids, and there will be resource like raid trainers who would very willingly and kindly help you with becoming a better player so you can finish the raids.
His problem is the OP wants to train others but only if they are willing to stop being casual because according to the OP casuals and raiders can’t be put together.
I dont think that learning how to complete a boss fight as part of a team means that you are not a casual player.
Learning to complete a boss fight means there must be roles you have to fulfill to successfully defeat the boss. But sometimes Casuals who are comfortable playing a profession geared with decent toughness and dps may sometimes become the tank but they are ranged. Using logic, having a ranged tank is fundamentally incompatible as the tank will be constantly moving around as this person incorporates their general PvE playstyle into fighting the boss, effectively messing around with the mechanics of the boss or causing a wipe because there’s not enough time to kill the boss.
That’s why I want to separate Casuals from Raiders. If you want to waste other people’s time testing out various builds with 9 other Casuals while not fully comprehending or maximizing your profession, fine. But don’t waste other people’s time when you have a commander’s tag without knowing what the hell you are doing and aren’t open to criticism and then rage or be toxic to your peers simply because you couldn’t kill the boss.
Just because there are a few casuals who do not wish to learn Raids and want to force Raiders to carry them does not mean all casuals have to be separated from Raiders.
Stop assuming that all casuals are toxic individuals who just want to be carried through raids without learning the mechanics.
Edit: You defined Casual as those players willing to learn. How can they learn if they aren’t allowed to be with the experienced players?
I think your utopian perspective is never going to work out. What I’m saying has already been in place by the content barrier and is further supported by toxic commanders. What I’m posting is to show an alternative solution to the complex situation but all it did was provide a slightly new perspective on the issue.
Like I said in my previous posts, if Casuals want to learn, they have the option to invest into a commanders tag and post on LFG (xxxx Training) and receive tips and criticisms from raiders. It’s entirely up to them whether they want to be toxic and reject that criticism or be more open to it and absorb that information like I did. I have also given my account name information in case people who read this post and are actually interested in Raid Trainings can contact me and I will host them.
I understand how you feel, but keeping groups of people separate is never a good idea. look at history.
Nor is keeping both groups with residual resentment against one another a good idea either. (Israeli-Palestine Conflict).
The raiding community is more than willing to help Casuals get into raids, but they have to put in the effort and time to learn in order to become a better gamer.
Yes, that’s the core of the problem. You’re willing to help casuals, but only if that means they will stop being casuals.
You ask casuals to stay away from you, but in the end it’s you that should be kept away from them. Which, in the end, is not what this game should be all about. What you’re talking about is creating a split in the community. Any such split can only poison the game.
In the end, what really needs to happen is the exact opposite. We need to seek ways to make raiders and casuals to be able to coexist together without one side trying to force the other one to change.
I really don’t see that as the core of the problem. You’re saying that just because one is expected to learn something about the game, they are no longer casual? It makes perfect sense that to do raids, people who have no experience still have to learn it.
Raids are supposed to be challenging content, and anyone who walks into a raid and refuses to learn it is wasting everyone’s time or asking to get carried through it.There’s nothing wrong with helping casual players become better at the game, assuming these casual players want to raid. If you don’t want to become better at the game and challenge yourself, then don’t raid. If you want to raid, you’d be willing to dedicate a certain amount of your time to learning these raids, and there will be resource like raid trainers who would very willingly and kindly help you with becoming a better player so you can finish the raids.
His problem is the OP wants to train others but only if they are willing to stop being casual because according to the OP casuals and raiders can’t be put together.
I dont think that learning how to complete a boss fight as part of a team means that you are not a casual player.
Learning to complete a boss fight means there must be roles you have to fulfill to successfully defeat the boss. But sometimes Casuals who are comfortable playing a profession geared with decent toughness and dps may sometimes become the tank but they are ranged. Using logic, having a ranged tank is fundamentally incompatible as the tank will be constantly moving around as this person incorporates their general PvE playstyle into fighting the boss, effectively messing around with the mechanics of the boss or causing a wipe because there’s not enough time to kill the boss.
That’s why I want to separate Casuals from Raiders. If you want to waste other people’s time testing out various builds with 9 other Casuals while not fully comprehending or maximizing your profession, fine. But don’t waste other people’s time when you have a commander’s tag without knowing what the hell you are doing and aren’t open to criticism and then rage or be toxic to your peers simply because you couldn’t kill the boss.
Just because there are a few casuals who do not wish to learn Raids and want to force Raiders to carry them does not mean all casuals have to be separated from Raiders.
Stop assuming that all casuals are toxic individuals who just want to be carried through raids without learning the mechanics.
Edit: You defined Casual as those players willing to learn. How can they learn if they aren’t allowed to be with the experienced players?
I think your utopian perspective is never going to work out. What I’m saying has already been in place by the content barrier and is further supported by toxic commanders. What I’m posting is to show an alternative solution to the complex situation but all it did was provide a slightly new perspective on the issue.
Like I said in my previous posts, if Casuals want to learn, they have the option to invest into a commanders tag and post on LFG (xxxx Training) and receive tips and criticisms from raiders. It’s entirely up to them whether they want to be toxic and reject that criticism or be more open to it and absorb that information like I did. I have also given my account name information in case people who read this post and are actually interested in Raid Trainings can contact me and I will host them.
So now commander’s tags are required for raiding?! Last time I checked they were just highly recommended and that players could raid without them, just without all of the tools that commanders have.
“Casuals” and Raiders do not need to be kept separate nor should they be. Most players in this game have the respect needed to not join groups that they do not belong in. Let’s not punish the majority for what the minority does.
The raiding community is more than willing to help Casuals get into raids, but they have to put in the effort and time to learn in order to become a better gamer.
Yes, that’s the core of the problem. You’re willing to help casuals, but only if that means they will stop being casuals.
You ask casuals to stay away from you, but in the end it’s you that should be kept away from them. Which, in the end, is not what this game should be all about. What you’re talking about is creating a split in the community. Any such split can only poison the game.
In the end, what really needs to happen is the exact opposite. We need to seek ways to make raiders and casuals to be able to coexist together without one side trying to force the other one to change.
I really don’t see that as the core of the problem. You’re saying that just because one is expected to learn something about the game, they are no longer casual? It makes perfect sense that to do raids, people who have no experience still have to learn it.
Raids are supposed to be challenging content, and anyone who walks into a raid and refuses to learn it is wasting everyone’s time or asking to get carried through it.There’s nothing wrong with helping casual players become better at the game, assuming these casual players want to raid. If you don’t want to become better at the game and challenge yourself, then don’t raid. If you want to raid, you’d be willing to dedicate a certain amount of your time to learning these raids, and there will be resource like raid trainers who would very willingly and kindly help you with becoming a better player so you can finish the raids.
His problem is the OP wants to train others but only if they are willing to stop being casual because according to the OP casuals and raiders can’t be put together.
I dont think that learning how to complete a boss fight as part of a team means that you are not a casual player.
Learning to complete a boss fight means there must be roles you have to fulfill to successfully defeat the boss. But sometimes Casuals who are comfortable playing a profession geared with decent toughness and dps may sometimes become the tank but they are ranged. Using logic, having a ranged tank is fundamentally incompatible as the tank will be constantly moving around as this person incorporates their general PvE playstyle into fighting the boss, effectively messing around with the mechanics of the boss or causing a wipe because there’s not enough time to kill the boss.
That’s why I want to separate Casuals from Raiders. If you want to waste other people’s time testing out various builds with 9 other Casuals while not fully comprehending or maximizing your profession, fine. But don’t waste other people’s time when you have a commander’s tag without knowing what the hell you are doing and aren’t open to criticism and then rage or be toxic to your peers simply because you couldn’t kill the boss.
Thats not a difference between casual and hardcore or raider. Its a matter of being a team player. Casuals can be great team players every bit as much as hardcore or raiders can be bad team players.
I am not, currently, a raider in this game but I do enjoy team based content, PVE and PVP, here and elsewhere. Some of my best experiences have been working with casual players and some of my worst experiences have been with hardcore players. And vice versa of course.
If a raider was a bad teamplayer, they would usually be removed from the raid squad altogether. Being a team player means to adapt and learn and improve to accumulate more experience. You can’t have both being a teamplayer and a conceited Casual. You can have an open-minded Casual willing to adapt or a raider who doesn’t want to cooperate because he thinks his method of killing the boss is better.
OP is confused between what a “bad” player is, and a “casual”.
[/quote] So now commander’s tags are required for raiding?! Last time I checked they were just highly recommended and that players could raid without them, just without all of the tools that commanders have.
“Casuals” and Raiders do not need to be kept separate nor should they be. Most players in this game have the respect needed to not join groups that they do not belong in. Let’s not punish the majority for what the minority does.[/quote]
Please don’t take my comments out of context. Commanders tag is a very helpful source of learning and cooperating. Especially since if you host the training, you will be able to vet out those that just want a swift kill vs those that want to help you and the others to learn and get the kill.
With the way raids are progressing and the attitude of some (the guilds I have joined) players, they themselves are putting up the barrier themselves. It might be a bit of both groups fault but the original goal is to increase the population of raiders and that requires helping out a lot of Casuals. So in the end, it’s really a detente with just a lot of spite thrown around and constantly recycling the same arguments over and over. The barrier’s already there, I just want people to be more aware of it so the word gets out and the Casuals can understand why they’re often kicked from raids or have to lie in order to participate in raids.
(edited by Jubilant.7280)
snipples
that’s happening because they are separate. if they were intermixed then the resentment wouldnt exist since they would share the land. idealist, sure, but there is no easy solution when two groups lay claim to something.
when you separate you open up ways for further wrongs.
Team Deathmatch for PvP – Raise the AoE cap for WvW – More unique events for PvE
OP is confused between what a “bad” player is, and a “casual”.
I’m not. Bad player is a player who doesn’t want to engage in teamwork to overcome the raid fight. Casual is someone who doesn’t have experience with raids but is eager to learn. I’m fine with Casual but not fine with a bad player. Nor am I fine with a bad Casual.
So now commander’s tags are required for raiding?! Last time I checked they were just highly recommended and that players could raid without them, just without all of the tools that commanders have.
“Casuals” and Raiders do not need to be kept separate nor should they be. Most players in this game have the respect needed to not join groups that they do not belong in. Let’s not punish the majority for what the minority does.
Please don’t take my comments out of context. Commanders tag is a very helpful source of learning and cooperating. Especially since if you host the training, you will be able to vet out those that just want a swift kill vs those that want to help you and the others to learn and get the kill.
With the way raids are progressing and the attitude of some (the guilds I have joined) players, they themselves are putting up the barrier themselves. It might be a bit of both groups fault but the original goal is to increase the population of raiders and that requires helping out a lot of Casuals. So in the end, it’s really a detente with just a lot of spite thrown around and constantly recycling the same arguments over and over. The barrier’s already there, I just want people to be more aware of it so the word gets out and the Casuals can understand why they’re often kicked from raids or have to lie in order to participate in raids.
I didn’t take your comment out of context. You said casuals should invest in a 300g commander tag before they start raiding. So you’re saying that they should be required to raid.
If the tags were 50g, then maybe. But 300g to start raiding?! I’m casually interested in maybe raiding one day, but if there is ever a requirement to have a commander’s tag then there is no way I’m EVER raiding. And I’m the casual that’s willing to learn and accept criticism. The kind of casual that raiders should be trying to bring into raiding.
300g is a LOT of money to put into something before you start that the player won’t use outside of that content before they really even know if they’ll actually LIKE the content. And it’s not something I can turn around and sell back to a vendor for even a fraction of the cost put into it.
Yes, but if there was an actual barrier, then NO casuals would be helped out. Because the Raiders can’t play with the casuals. Your solution only hurts the raiding community. It doesn’t help it.