Keep Casuals and Raiders Separate
So now commander’s tags are required for raiding?! Last time I checked they were just highly recommended and that players could raid without them, just without all of the tools that commanders have.
“Casuals” and Raiders do not need to be kept separate nor should they be. Most players in this game have the respect needed to not join groups that they do not belong in. Let’s not punish the majority for what the minority does.
Please don’t take my comments out of context. Commanders tag is a very helpful source of learning and cooperating. Especially since if you host the training, you will be able to vet out those that just want a swift kill vs those that want to help you and the others to learn and get the kill.
With the way raids are progressing and the attitude of some (the guilds I have joined) players, they themselves are putting up the barrier themselves. It might be a bit of both groups fault but the original goal is to increase the population of raiders and that requires helping out a lot of Casuals. So in the end, it’s really a detente with just a lot of spite thrown around and constantly recycling the same arguments over and over. The barrier’s already there, I just want people to be more aware of it so the word gets out and the Casuals can understand why they’re often kicked from raids or have to lie in order to participate in raids.
I didn’t take your comment out of context. You said casuals should invest in a 300g commander tag before they start raiding. So you’re saying that they should be required to raid.
If the tags were 50g, then maybe. But 300g to start raiding?! I’m casually interested in maybe raiding one day, but if there is ever a requirement to have a commander’s tag then there is no way I’m EVER raiding. And I’m the casual that’s willing to learn and accept criticism. The kind of casual that raiders should be trying to bring into raiding.
300g is a LOT of money to put into something before you start that the player won’t use outside of that content before they really even know if they’ll actually LIKE the content. And it’s not something I can turn around and sell back to a vendor for even a fraction of the cost put into it.
Yes, but if there was an actual barrier, then NO casuals would be helped out. Because the Raiders can’t play with the casuals. Your solution only hurts the raiding community. It doesn’t help it.
You exacerbate my comment. I said if you are interested in raiding, you should invest in a commander’s tag so you can have control of how you want your training to run. If you say you accept criticism and would like to learn, I think you’re a prime candidate for investing towards a tag that you don’t just use in Raids, but in WvW, general PvE content. Since with your avid desire to create equality among the gamers, I believe you would be an exceptional commander. It’s a big investment in the eyes of someone not being a commander and before I bought the tag, I was heistant in spending that much gold. After I did, I felt like it was a major investment because you get to implement the rules you want to tackle specific content whether it is DS or AB MM or Raids.
So now commander’s tags are required for raiding?! Last time I checked they were just highly recommended and that players could raid without them, just without all of the tools that commanders have.
“Casuals” and Raiders do not need to be kept separate nor should they be. Most players in this game have the respect needed to not join groups that they do not belong in. Let’s not punish the majority for what the minority does.
Please don’t take my comments out of context. Commanders tag is a very helpful source of learning and cooperating. Especially since if you host the training, you will be able to vet out those that just want a swift kill vs those that want to help you and the others to learn and get the kill.
With the way raids are progressing and the attitude of some (the guilds I have joined) players, they themselves are putting up the barrier themselves. It might be a bit of both groups fault but the original goal is to increase the population of raiders and that requires helping out a lot of Casuals. So in the end, it’s really a detente with just a lot of spite thrown around and constantly recycling the same arguments over and over. The barrier’s already there, I just want people to be more aware of it so the word gets out and the Casuals can understand why they’re often kicked from raids or have to lie in order to participate in raids.
I didn’t take your comment out of context. You said casuals should invest in a 300g commander tag before they start raiding. So you’re saying that they should be required to raid.
If the tags were 50g, then maybe. But 300g to start raiding?! I’m casually interested in maybe raiding one day, but if there is ever a requirement to have a commander’s tag then there is no way I’m EVER raiding. And I’m the casual that’s willing to learn and accept criticism. The kind of casual that raiders should be trying to bring into raiding.
300g is a LOT of money to put into something before you start that the player won’t use outside of that content before they really even know if they’ll actually LIKE the content. And it’s not something I can turn around and sell back to a vendor for even a fraction of the cost put into it.
Yes, but if there was an actual barrier, then NO casuals would be helped out. Because the Raiders can’t play with the casuals. Your solution only hurts the raiding community. It doesn’t help it.
You exacerbate my comment. I said if you are interested in raiding, you should invest in a commander’s tag so you can have control of how you want your training to run. If you say you accept criticism and would like to learn, I think you’re a prime candidate for investing towards a tag that you don’t just use in Raids, but in WvW, general PvE content. Since with your avid desire to create equality among the gamers, I believe you would be an exceptional commander. It’s a big investment in the eyes of someone not being a commander and before I bought the tag, I was heistant in spending that much gold. After I did, I felt like it was a major investment because you get to implement the rules you want to tackle specific content whether it is DS or AB MM or Raids.
Yea, I don’t do WvW and I don’t like leading so there would be no use for a commander’s tag for me and I’m not spending 300g on a tag that I’d rarely use. I’m not at this point willing to put for the time and effort to learn rotations for any of my characters for raids.
You’d find that for most players that don’t already have a tag or aren’t currently aiming to get one, that they aren’t going to want to spend 300g for a tag for content that they may find they don’t like even after they learn the mechanics. And if they don’t like to lead map metas or do WvW or anything like that, then that’s 300g that they can’t get back at all.
OP is confused between what a “bad” player is, and a “casual”.
I’m not. Bad player is a player who doesn’t want to engage in teamwork to overcome the raid fight. Casual is someone who doesn’t have experience with raids but is eager to learn. I’m fine with Casual but not fine with a bad player. Nor am I fine with a bad Casual.
Then why are you wanting the casuals to be kept separate from the raiders? The raiders should be helping out the casuals when they can (time and patience willing).
You keep throwing the word casual around and saying they should be kept separate due to the fact that they just want to be carried and aren’t willing to learn and then turn around and say that casuals are willing to learn.
Can you please pick one definition for the word casual and stick to it. It’s hard to discuss issues when one side can’t pick a definition and stick with it.
I was referring to @Ashen.2907’s comment regarding bad raiders and Casuals. Your insistence on believing I perceive “all” Casuals wanting to be carried. Please stop taking my comments out of context or only attacking specific parts of the whole of my information. It belies the main issue that Casuals who don’t want to invest the time and spread toxicity to everyone else should be kept separate from the raiding community. The few Casuals that really do want to get into the raid content, would try to learn and ask and improve themselves and more often than not, raiding guilds that are looking to recruit would post on the forums looking for new raiders but they have requirements. Those requirements should serve as a baseline for people to improve their ability to play to contribute to the overall group. They always have the option to message the recruiter to learn more about raids and the gear they need.
So now commander’s tags are required for raiding?! Last time I checked they were just highly recommended and that players could raid without them, just without all of the tools that commanders have.
“Casuals” and Raiders do not need to be kept separate nor should they be. Most players in this game have the respect needed to not join groups that they do not belong in. Let’s not punish the majority for what the minority does.
Please don’t take my comments out of context. Commanders tag is a very helpful source of learning and cooperating. Especially since if you host the training, you will be able to vet out those that just want a swift kill vs those that want to help you and the others to learn and get the kill.
With the way raids are progressing and the attitude of some (the guilds I have joined) players, they themselves are putting up the barrier themselves. It might be a bit of both groups fault but the original goal is to increase the population of raiders and that requires helping out a lot of Casuals. So in the end, it’s really a detente with just a lot of spite thrown around and constantly recycling the same arguments over and over. The barrier’s already there, I just want people to be more aware of it so the word gets out and the Casuals can understand why they’re often kicked from raids or have to lie in order to participate in raids.
I didn’t take your comment out of context. You said casuals should invest in a 300g commander tag before they start raiding. So you’re saying that they should be required to raid.
If the tags were 50g, then maybe. But 300g to start raiding?! I’m casually interested in maybe raiding one day, but if there is ever a requirement to have a commander’s tag then there is no way I’m EVER raiding. And I’m the casual that’s willing to learn and accept criticism. The kind of casual that raiders should be trying to bring into raiding.
300g is a LOT of money to put into something before you start that the player won’t use outside of that content before they really even know if they’ll actually LIKE the content. And it’s not something I can turn around and sell back to a vendor for even a fraction of the cost put into it.
Yes, but if there was an actual barrier, then NO casuals would be helped out. Because the Raiders can’t play with the casuals. Your solution only hurts the raiding community. It doesn’t help it.
You exacerbate my comment. I said if you are interested in raiding, you should invest in a commander’s tag so you can have control of how you want your training to run. If you say you accept criticism and would like to learn, I think you’re a prime candidate for investing towards a tag that you don’t just use in Raids, but in WvW, general PvE content. Since with your avid desire to create equality among the gamers, I believe you would be an exceptional commander. It’s a big investment in the eyes of someone not being a commander and before I bought the tag, I was heistant in spending that much gold. After I did, I felt like it was a major investment because you get to implement the rules you want to tackle specific content whether it is DS or AB MM or Raids.
Yea, I don’t do WvW and I don’t like leading so there would be no use for a commander’s tag for me and I’m not spending 300g on a tag that I’d rarely use. I’m not at this point willing to put for the time and effort to learn rotations for any of my characters for raids.
You’d find that for most players that don’t already have a tag or aren’t currently aiming to get one, that they aren’t going to want to spend 300g for a tag for content that they may find they don’t like even after they learn the mechanics. And if they don’t like to lead map metas or do WvW or anything like that, then that’s 300g that they can’t get back at all.
If you are not willing to put into the time and effort then I’m not sure if your interest in raids is truly genuine. And imo, your perspective of surmising “most, majority” to support your ideology isn’t true. I find people enjoy all types of content and those that want to strive for the best fashion or gear (such as Legendary armor or raid exclusive skins) would invest their time and effort to acquire that gear. You get 2g from dailies, fractals you can make about 1-5g if you do tier 1, you can sell your materials for quite a bit of gold and accumulate it until you have 300g to invest towards a commander’s tag. But even if you don’t want to invest towards a commander’s tag, you have the direct option of messaging me right now and we can set up a date to help you get better gear, train yourself on raids and rotations. There are always other alternatives if you don’t want to invest towards 300g commander’s tag such as joining raid training groups.
If you are not willing to put into the time and effort then I’m not sure if your interest in raids is truly genuine. And imo, your perspective of surmising “most, majority” to support your ideology isn’t true. I find people enjoy all types of content and those that want to strive for the best fashion or gear (such as Legendary armor or raid exclusive skins) would invest their time and effort to acquire that gear. You get 2g from dailies, fractals you can make about 1-5g if you do tier 1, you can sell your materials for quite a bit of gold and accumulate it until you have 300g to invest towards a commander’s tag. But even if you don’t want to invest towards a commander’s tag, you have the direct option of messaging me right now and we can set up a date to help you get better gear, train yourself on raids and rotations. There are always other alternatives if you don’t want to invest towards 300g commander’s tag such as joining raid training groups.
I have an interest in doing raids. However, since I know my desire to put forth the effort to do is lacking, I don’t raid and I’m not actively looking to get into the raiding scene.
I do however know that what you suggested in the OP would be bad for the game, because most casuals aren’t bad players who would join raiders’ groups looking to be carried.
And I know full well that I can get up to 300g, it’s not earning the 300g that’s the problem.
It’s getting my money’s worth out of spending it on the commander’s tag. I know that I currently would not get my money’s worth out of it. Therefore for me, it would be a bad choice to buy it. Especially if it was to try raiding out.
OP is confused between what a “bad” player is, and a “casual”.
I’m not. Bad player is a player who doesn’t want to engage in teamwork to overcome the raid fight. Casual is someone who doesn’t have experience with raids but is eager to learn. I’m fine with Casual but not fine with a bad player. Nor am I fine with a bad Casual.
Then why are you wanting the casuals to be kept separate from the raiders? The raiders should be helping out the casuals when they can (time and patience willing).
You keep throwing the word casual around and saying they should be kept separate due to the fact that they just want to be carried and aren’t willing to learn and then turn around and say that casuals are willing to learn.
Can you please pick one definition for the word casual and stick to it. It’s hard to discuss issues when one side can’t pick a definition and stick with it.
I was referring to @Ashen.2907’s comment regarding bad raiders and Casuals. Your insistence on believing I perceive “all” Casuals wanting to be carried. Please stop taking my comments out of context or only attacking specific parts of the whole of my information. It belies the main issue that Casuals who don’t want to invest the time and spread toxicity to everyone else should be kept separate from the raiding community. The few Casuals that really do want to get into the raid content, would try to learn and ask and improve themselves and more often than not, raiding guilds that are looking to recruit would post on the forums looking for new raiders but they have requirements. Those requirements should serve as a baseline for people to improve their ability to play to contribute to the overall group. They always have the option to message the recruiter to learn more about raids and the gear they need.
Then please stop using Casuals to refer to both bad players and players willing to learn raids but haven’t yet.
Hence my last comment in the post: to pick one definition of casual and stick to it. It’s one of those nebulous terms that can mean something different to everyone so if you don’t use it with one uniform definition, it can get hard for others to figure out what your definition of it is or which definition you were going for in the post.
Your OP and your title seem to suggest you mean bad players for casual and you’re not wanting to upset those who are bad at the game (either due to experience or lack of caring or both). Yet, other posts seem to suggest that you just mean the players who haven’t gotten into raiding yet and are willing to learn.
Let’s leave aside the word, “casual.” The fact is that different people think different things when they see the word casual in a gaming context. So, what is the OP really asking for? It seems to me he wants to somehow separate players who establish requirements to participate with them in group content and players who don’t want to adhere to those requirements. At least, that’s what the thread title suggests. When I read the OP, though, it sounds more like, “Either adapt the the meta or stop complaining about things like DPS meters.”
If the OP is after the former, well, players have been trying to separate those groups since group content was first introduced. That is, after all, the purpose of setting requirements in the first place. From all accounts, there have been at best mixed results with attempts to separate the groups. If the OP is really after the latter, it seems more likely that a Mars expedition will launch next year than that people who complain will stop.
That leaves me with the OP’s attempts to outline how he improved and his offer to teach. If that was all the thread contained, it would have been a positive thread. As it is, the rant and the derail caused by the use of the word casual led to lengthy discussions about issues that are not really resolvable or in fact germane.
I first invested in a 300 gold Commander’s tag and started hosting VG training sessions.
Last I checked you don’t need a commander tag to enter a Raid why exactly do you need a commander tag to be raiding?
I first invested in a 300 gold Commander’s tag and started hosting VG training sessions.
Last I checked you don’t need a commander tag to enter a Raid why exactly do you need a commander tag to be raiding?
Well, maybe because Jubilant seemed to suggest it should be a requirement for a casual to get into raiding. Which may be because he did buy one.
@OP
Can you please elaborate, how exactly do you want to keep both groups separate that would not create even more toxicity than is already present? Because, personally, the only way I see, would be to make raids be completely unappealing for non-raiders. And this, unfortunately, seem to create …strong dislike on raiders’ side.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
OP is confused between what a “bad” player is, and a “casual”.
Indeed. This discussion could have avoided a lot of pointless loops without that confusion.
Warning! This post may contain traces of irony, sarcasm and peanuts.
There is no loyalty without betrayal. -Ann Smiley
There is no loyalty without betrayal. -Ann Smiley
As Somone else who also trains people in raids, I don’t expect people to know the fight right off the bat, but I do expect them to bring the right tools for the job and not waste everyone’s time, this includes meta builds and exotic gear. If you won’t show willingness to adapt to benefit everyone, I don’t want to train you
Sorry, I salvaged my exotic gear when I made ascended versions, and I am /not/ grinding another set of leadership runes because you want exotics. Seriously, what was ANet thinking when they decided that the Dragon’s Stand runes should have the same cost as the ones from the other HoT areas despite Crystalline Ore being ridiculously less common than the other currencies.
Also, I seriously feel that you overestimate how important meta builds are. If you’ve PUG raided as much as I have, you might have noticed that most problems are from bad in combat decisions (Prioritising damaging the boss over getting to the green circles on Vale Guardian, Not throwing bombs on Sabetha, pulling transformed slublings into AoE on Slothsasor, etc.), and not from having a bad build.
Heck, the first time that I killed Sabetha, we had one DPS die to the very first flame wall and still killed her with plenty of platform health remaining.
(edited by Eponet.4829)
Sorry, I salvaged my exotic gear when I made ascended versions, and I am /not/ grinding another set of leadership runes because you want exotics. Seriously, what was ANet thinking when they decided that the Dragon’s Stand runes should have the same cost as the ones from the other HoT areas despite Crystalline Ore being ridiculously less common than the other currencies.
There are alternatives besides the optimum. I don’t think you won’t be trained by him because you don’t have these leadership runes. But as a beginner you can try to come with the most suitable gear you can get and not bring things like your cleric heal guard.
Also, I seriously feel that you overestimate how important meta builds are. If you’ve PUG raided as much as I have, you might have noticed that most problems are from bad in combat decisions (Prioritising damaging the boss over getting to the green circles on Vale Guardian, Not throwing bombs on Sabetha, pulling transformed slublings into AoE on Slothsasor, etc.), and not from having a bad build.
Heck, the first time that I killed Sabetha, we had one DPS die to the very first flame wall and still killed her with plenty of platform health remaining.
That has nothing to do with overestimation. The meta is just the optimal configuration in an optimal group; and of course it’s more important to get the mechanics straight. But if you also have raided yourself you definitely know that on the one hand people are failing mechanics (even with 150/200/300 LI ^^) and on the other hand a huge amount of dps is missing – and this is not only due to ppl not knowing the rotations but rather using incredible stupid gear compositions. In a recent video of Nike where he talks a little bit about DPS meters, he mentioned he has seen awkward and inexcusable gear decisions when he used an older version of a specific dps meter.
Usually, I have the opinion that dps meters will create more inaccessibility and maybe toxicity but after using the meter by myself I recognized several weird and low numbers by people (just in one day!) so I asked them politely and gently about their gear.
Results: one half left without a single word – quelle surprise! – the other half had vitality stacked, 6 different stats (each on every armor part) with different runes while playing dps tempest or playing heal druid also with a complete nonsense gear but hey, they have the elite specialization which makes them a healer – of course. Of course!
These builds are fine for open world things when you zerg something down (or getting carried by a little amount of dps heavy players) but they are not usable in raids. Still, there almost are no hard dps checks on bosses but with builds I mentioned above you will most likely fail due to having 0 synergies in your squad. That’s why you insist on good gear, meta builds – the usual stuff. With it, you can guarantee success after having trained the mechanics.
Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.
I have joined many guilds ranging from the mega-united ones to the average small knit ones and more often than not, Casuals become toxic whenever I mention the topic. I understand that raids is a challenging content and more often than not, lots of people get frustrated getting wiped over and over countless times. The few that I was actually able to persuade, gave up after a few sessions. It takes a heavy toll on me both physically and psychologically to watch as the people I’ve invested countless hours into just resent me because they can’t tackle the content.
So to the Casuals that are reading this, here’s my story of how I was able to become a prolific raider. I first invested in a 300 gold Commander’s tag and started hosting VG training sessions. More often than not, the raiding community is willing to help out whether it is because of boredom or they simply want to help out. But because of the adamant decisions to ignore Meta builds (the builds that help you maximize your healing power or dps or toughness) and wanting to play the style you want for raids without comprehending the difficulty of BOTH the Raid boss and Your Profession often results in a virulent distaste towards raids. I spent 5 months practicing, refining, and learning how to become a better raider before I joined a static raid guild. During those 5 months, the furthest I’ve gotten was to Matthias. (I did not want to spoil myself so I only completed Wing 1 and 2/3 of Wing 2).
It makes me mad whenever I try to help out Casuals that they don’t bother to invest their time and effort into improving their gear or ignoring mechanics. Especially infuriating when after multiple sessions, they just give up. The raiding community is more than willing to help Casuals get into raids, but they have to put in the effort and time to learn in order to become a better gamer. Otherwise, please stop complaining about the implementation of dps meters, reducing the difficulty of raids, or any of the crying to Anet. We’re more than willing to teach and help you out if you bother to actually invest the time like we did into improving yourselves. I personally have given up on trying to persuade random guilds to tackle raids because of this, but I will still occasionally host Raid Trainings in LFG. If you are interested in it, feel free to drop me a mail in Jubilant.7280 and I will provide you with the basic knowledge in raids and might even sponsor you to help you gear yourself up.
This is my rant and my thoughts on the division between Casuals and Hardcore raiders.
This post is disgusting, as is your attitude. Raiding and people like you , has ruined, and is continuing to ruin, Guild Wars 2.
I sincerely hope you and your ilk just go away. I see now LFG groups are “REQUIRING” dps meters in order to even try raiding.
I was rather pleased to see that ArenaNet’s financials have suffered since this stupid focus on raids and Heart of Thorns has come in. I hope it continues downwards in the following quarters so they stop wasting time on this rubbish that only a small % of the player base even bothers with, but causes so much toxicity. Business’s tend to listen to money.
The game was reasonably pleasant to play up until Heart of Thorns and raiding came along, and since then it’s been nothing but awful attitudes from these people. The entire game has been infected and contorted by them and the changes to cater to them, and it’s been so negative on the community.
But hey, maybe you are right. Raiders and casuals should be kept separate – just discontinue raiding and these locusts will move on and go away. And maybe GW2 can become pleasant again.
[…]
This is my rant and my thoughts on the division between Casuals and Hardcore raiders.This post is disgusting, as is your attitude. Raiding and people like you , has ruined, and is continuing to ruin, Guild Wars 2.
[…]
Oh, the sweet irony contained in this combination of posts.
Warning! This post may contain traces of irony, sarcasm and peanuts.
There is no loyalty without betrayal. -Ann Smiley
There is no loyalty without betrayal. -Ann Smiley
It seems silly to call for new raiders, who will obviously not be commanding in raids yet, to buy a commander tag as a prerequisite for the content.
It seems silly to call for new raiders, who will obviously not be commanding in raids yet, to buy a commander tag as a prerequisite for the content.
Especially when it’s not even needed for commanding in raids.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Let’s leave aside the word, “casual.” The fact is that different people think different things when they see the word casual in a gaming context. So, what is the OP really asking for? It seems to me he wants to somehow separate players who establish requirements to participate with them in group content and players who don’t want to adhere to those requirements. At least, that’s what the thread title suggests. When I read the OP, though, it sounds more like, “Either adapt the the meta or stop complaining about things like DPS meters.”
If the OP is after the former, well, players have been trying to separate those groups since group content was first introduced. That is, after all, the purpose of setting requirements in the first place. From all accounts, there have been at best mixed results with attempts to separate the groups. If the OP is really after the latter, it seems more likely that a Mars expedition will launch next year than that people who complain will stop.
That leaves me with the OP’s attempts to outline how he improved and his offer to teach. If that was all the thread contained, it would have been a positive thread. As it is, the rant and the derail caused by the use of the word casual led to lengthy discussions about issues that are not really resolvable or in fact germane.
I’m providing my personal anecdote for those who have a strong desire to want to get into raids to prove that the challenging barrier set by Anet can be overcome and my attempts to get people specifically in guilds to get more interested in raids have failed many times and often leaving a distaste for tackling raids because of “Casuals” don’t have the synergy and don’t want to follow metabattle. For example, some people are willing to adapt to the meta but some don’t want and since they’re in a guild, they’re more than likely wanting to avoid causing strife. So they don’t tackle raids as a guild but a few of those that want to try to PuG and when they try again to encourage their guildmates to participate, those that don’t want to follow the meta view those that did with distaste and jealousy for not being able to obtain the same progress as them. I want Casuals, the ones that don’t like following meta and expecting to progress in raids without synergy to be kept separate from the raiding community. Like, putting on LFG “boss, LI req or KP” and then if they have neither, ask for a gear check and skill check to confirm they at least have the correct gear or skill traited to learn the boss mechanics. If they don’t and don’t want to change, then simply kick them because they are not worth the effort and doing this multiple times may increase the amount of toxicity within the GW2 community, especially veering away the Casuals adamant about not changing their builds (skills + gear + traits) for best synergy in the squad, but at the same time it also helps filter out the few people that want to do raids and are willing to learn/contribute towards the squad. IMO, this has already happened and I’m only trying to give it more light and hope that the guild leaders of raiders lower the requirements for joining their raid guilds to help promote encourage new raiders to join and learn. (Like, not having 5boss kill requirement but rather have a snapshot of the bare minimum dps check for certain professions or perma upkeep with alacrity)
I first invested in a 300 gold Commander’s tag and started hosting VG training sessions.
Last I checked you don’t need a commander tag to enter a Raid why exactly do you need a commander tag to be raiding?
It’s a suggestion and not a requirement. If it came off that way as a requirement, I’ve reiterated multiple times that you always have the option to join PuG raid trainings or add people you know are experienced raiders and ask them how to help you improve. I’m sure the sentiment for majority of experienced raiders is that they themselves know the difficulty of the content and are usually willing to help out. (This is from anecdotal experience)
As Somone else who also trains people in raids, I don’t expect people to know the fight right off the bat, but I do expect them to bring the right tools for the job and not waste everyone’s time, this includes meta builds and exotic gear. If you won’t show willingness to adapt to benefit everyone, I don’t want to train you
Sorry, I salvaged my exotic gear when I made ascended versions, and I am /not/ grinding another set of leadership runes because you want exotics. Seriously, what was ANet thinking when they decided that the Dragon’s Stand runes should have the same cost as the ones from the other HoT areas despite Crystalline Ore being ridiculously less common than the other currencies.
Also, I seriously feel that you overestimate how important meta builds are. If you’ve PUG raided as much as I have, you might have noticed that most problems are from bad in combat decisions (Prioritising damaging the boss over getting to the green circles on Vale Guardian, Not throwing bombs on Sabetha, pulling transformed slublings into AoE on Slothsasor, etc.), and not from having a bad build.
Heck, the first time that I killed Sabetha, we had one DPS die to the very first flame wall and still killed her with plenty of platform health remaining.
This is an MMO RPG game. All MMO RPG involves a certain amount of grinding. Anet has already optimized the game to be more Casual friendly with the elimination of quests, experience loss upon death and even provide free repair for your gear so dying is less punishing. Leadership runes are one of the most grindy runes and admittedly I don’t run with them. However, I have played Chronomancer and have learned a lot from other raiders so I can augment here and there, like having full Commander’s armor for high dps check bosses (Gorseval, SAB, Xera, KC, Statue) and where the boss is more mechanical, I have a Minstrel armor set. Both of these sets have Runes of Durability for added toughness. So there are always variations if you don’t want to farm for the meta builds, but you will have to ask experienced raiders what type of gear do they run. Currently, I’m farming a new armor set to copy meta battle (cause I swapped back and forth using insignias) to have a 3rd armor set to maximize dps output even further without losing boon duration which means I will need Runes of Leadership. Overall, I understand DH might be boring at times, but I remind myself that this is an MMO RPG, a grindy game and those that have the best gear grinded a ton.
I’m providing my personal anecdote for those who have a strong desire to want to get into raids to prove that the challenging barrier set by Anet can be overcome and my attempts to get people specifically in guilds to get more interested in raids have failed many times and often leaving a distaste for tackling raids because of “Casuals” don’t have the synergy and don’t want to follow metabattle.
For example, some people are willing to adapt to the meta but some don’t want and since they’re in a guild, they’re more than likely wanting to avoid causing strife. So they don’t tackle raids as a guild but a few of those that want to try to PuG and when they try again to encourage their guildmates to participate, those that don’t want to follow the meta view those that did with distaste and jealousy for not being able to obtain the same progress as them.
I want Casuals, the ones that don’t like following meta and expecting to progress in raids without synergy to be kept separate from the raiding community. Like, putting on LFG “boss, LI req or KP” and then if they have neither, ask for a gear check and skill check to confirm they at least have the correct gear or skill traited to learn the boss mechanics. If they don’t and don’t want to change, then simply kick them because they are not worth the effort and doing this multiple times may increase the amount of toxicity within the GW2 community, especially veering away the Casuals adamant about not changing their builds (skills + gear + traits) for best synergy in the squad, but at the same time it also helps filter out the few people that want to do raids and are willing to learn/contribute towards the squad.
IMO, this has already happened and I’m only trying to give it more light and hope that the guild leaders of raiders lower the requirements for joining their raid guilds to help promote encourage new raiders to join and learn. (Like, not having 5boss kill requirement but rather have a snapshot of the bare minimum dps check for certain professions or perma upkeep with alacrity)
How do you propose this is done? ANet can’t add anything to the game to check for that. Just because a player has X, Y, and Z doesn’t mean that they are open to learning and ready for criticism when they mess up. A player who doesn’t have all of X, Y, and Z may be willing to learn.
Players do a good job of keeping themselves separated. You can’t for players not ready to learn to learn and you can’t force raid guilds to change their requirements.
You can only start your own training raid guild or try to get your own raid guild to allow for lower requirements.
I’m sure raiding guilds know that they are excluding possible great raiders due to their requirements but they have to put the line somewhere to exclude as many who just wish to be carried as possible.
(edited by Seera.5916)
I’m providing my personal anecdote for those who have a strong desire to want to get into raids to prove that the challenging barrier set by Anet can be overcome and my attempts to get people specifically in guilds to get more interested in raids have failed many times and often leaving a distaste for tackling raids because of “Casuals” don’t have the synergy and don’t want to follow metabattle.
For example, some people are willing to adapt to the meta but some don’t want and since they’re in a guild, they’re more than likely wanting to avoid causing strife. So they don’t tackle raids as a guild but a few of those that want to try to PuG and when they try again to encourage their guildmates to participate, those that don’t want to follow the meta view those that did with distaste and jealousy for not being able to obtain the same progress as them.
I want Casuals, the ones that don’t like following meta and expecting to progress in raids without synergy to be kept separate from the raiding community. Like, putting on LFG “boss, LI req or KP” and then if they have neither, ask for a gear check and skill check to confirm they at least have the correct gear or skill traited to learn the boss mechanics. If they don’t and don’t want to change, then simply kick them because they are not worth the effort and doing this multiple times may increase the amount of toxicity within the GW2 community, especially veering away the Casuals adamant about not changing their builds (skills + gear + traits) for best synergy in the squad, but at the same time it also helps filter out the few people that want to do raids and are willing to learn/contribute towards the squad.
IMO, this has already happened and I’m only trying to give it more light and hope that the guild leaders of raiders lower the requirements for joining their raid guilds to help promote encourage new raiders to join and learn. (Like, not having 5boss kill requirement but rather have a snapshot of the bare minimum dps check for certain professions or perma upkeep with alacrity)
How do you propose this is done? ANet can’t add anything to the game to check for that. Just because a player has X, Y, and Z doesn’t mean that they are open to learning and ready for criticism when they mess up. A player who doesn’t have all of X, Y, and Z may be willing to learn.
Players do a good job of keeping themselves separated. You can’t for players not ready to learn to learn and you can’t force raid guilds to change their requirements.
You can only start your own training raid guild or try to get your own raid guild to allow for lower requirements.
I’m sure raiding guilds know that they are excluding possible great raiders due to their requirements but they have to put the line somewhere to exclude as many who just wish to be carried as possible.
I’m doing this by creating and commenting on similar posts like these to elucidate more on this subject. I’m sure some guild leaders scour the forums often so by doing this and interjecting my advice frequently, eventually it may cause a shift. It’s minuscule chance and most likely going to take an extensive amount of time, but I hope being more engaged in the community, this idea would be implemented and cause a shift in perspectives. (For example, AB MM VIP vs AB MM anchors type of thing). DPS meters would be very helpful in vetting out those adamant Casuals and those willing to adapt and learn and improve. (It’s not necessary but still a very useful tool)
I’m providing my personal anecdote for those who have a strong desire to want to get into raids to prove that the challenging barrier set by Anet can be overcome and my attempts to get people specifically in guilds to get more interested in raids have failed many times and often leaving a distaste for tackling raids because of “Casuals” don’t have the synergy and don’t want to follow metabattle.
For example, some people are willing to adapt to the meta but some don’t want and since they’re in a guild, they’re more than likely wanting to avoid causing strife. So they don’t tackle raids as a guild but a few of those that want to try to PuG and when they try again to encourage their guildmates to participate, those that don’t want to follow the meta view those that did with distaste and jealousy for not being able to obtain the same progress as them.
I want Casuals, the ones that don’t like following meta and expecting to progress in raids without synergy to be kept separate from the raiding community. Like, putting on LFG “boss, LI req or KP” and then if they have neither, ask for a gear check and skill check to confirm they at least have the correct gear or skill traited to learn the boss mechanics. If they don’t and don’t want to change, then simply kick them because they are not worth the effort and doing this multiple times may increase the amount of toxicity within the GW2 community, especially veering away the Casuals adamant about not changing their builds (skills + gear + traits) for best synergy in the squad, but at the same time it also helps filter out the few people that want to do raids and are willing to learn/contribute towards the squad.
IMO, this has already happened and I’m only trying to give it more light and hope that the guild leaders of raiders lower the requirements for joining their raid guilds to help promote encourage new raiders to join and learn. (Like, not having 5boss kill requirement but rather have a snapshot of the bare minimum dps check for certain professions or perma upkeep with alacrity)
How do you propose this is done? ANet can’t add anything to the game to check for that. Just because a player has X, Y, and Z doesn’t mean that they are open to learning and ready for criticism when they mess up. A player who doesn’t have all of X, Y, and Z may be willing to learn.
Players do a good job of keeping themselves separated. You can’t for players not ready to learn to learn and you can’t force raid guilds to change their requirements.
You can only start your own training raid guild or try to get your own raid guild to allow for lower requirements.
I’m sure raiding guilds know that they are excluding possible great raiders due to their requirements but they have to put the line somewhere to exclude as many who just wish to be carried as possible.
I’m doing this by creating and commenting on similar posts like these to elucidate more on this subject. I’m sure some guild leaders scour the forums often so by doing this and interjecting my advice frequently, eventually it may cause a shift. It’s minuscule chance and most likely going to take an extensive amount of time, but I hope being more engaged in the community, this idea would be implemented and cause a shift in perspectives. (For example, AB MM VIP vs AB MM anchors type of thing). DPS meters would be very helpful in vetting out those adamant Casuals and those willing to adapt and learn and improve. (It’s not necessary but still a very useful tool)
If that was your goal, then you needed a different title and first post for this thread, because that goal was not conveyed at all in your thread. Your first post and title comes off just as toxic as the behavior you’re trying to remove from the game.
I’m sure the sentiment for majority of experienced raiders is that they themselves know the difficulty of the content and are usually willing to help out. (This is from anecdotal experience)
I’m sure of that too. In fact, almost every experienced raider i know did think like that about themselves.
And while some of them were, in fact, really helpful, others actually were not. Some, while claiming how willing to help they were, tended to be extremely unhelpful.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
I’m providing my personal anecdote for those who have a strong desire to want to get into raids to prove that the challenging barrier set by Anet can be overcome and my attempts to get people specifically in guilds to get more interested in raids have failed many times and often leaving a distaste for tackling raids because of “Casuals” don’t have the synergy and don’t want to follow metabattle.
For example, some people are willing to adapt to the meta but some don’t want and since they’re in a guild, they’re more than likely wanting to avoid causing strife. So they don’t tackle raids as a guild but a few of those that want to try to PuG and when they try again to encourage their guildmates to participate, those that don’t want to follow the meta view those that did with distaste and jealousy for not being able to obtain the same progress as them.
I want Casuals, the ones that don’t like following meta and expecting to progress in raids without synergy to be kept separate from the raiding community. Like, putting on LFG “boss, LI req or KP” and then if they have neither, ask for a gear check and skill check to confirm they at least have the correct gear or skill traited to learn the boss mechanics. If they don’t and don’t want to change, then simply kick them because they are not worth the effort and doing this multiple times may increase the amount of toxicity within the GW2 community, especially veering away the Casuals adamant about not changing their builds (skills + gear + traits) for best synergy in the squad, but at the same time it also helps filter out the few people that want to do raids and are willing to learn/contribute towards the squad.
IMO, this has already happened and I’m only trying to give it more light and hope that the guild leaders of raiders lower the requirements for joining their raid guilds to help promote encourage new raiders to join and learn. (Like, not having 5boss kill requirement but rather have a snapshot of the bare minimum dps check for certain professions or perma upkeep with alacrity)
How do you propose this is done? ANet can’t add anything to the game to check for that. Just because a player has X, Y, and Z doesn’t mean that they are open to learning and ready for criticism when they mess up. A player who doesn’t have all of X, Y, and Z may be willing to learn.
Players do a good job of keeping themselves separated. You can’t for players not ready to learn to learn and you can’t force raid guilds to change their requirements.
You can only start your own training raid guild or try to get your own raid guild to allow for lower requirements.
I’m sure raiding guilds know that they are excluding possible great raiders due to their requirements but they have to put the line somewhere to exclude as many who just wish to be carried as possible.
I’m doing this by creating and commenting on similar posts like these to elucidate more on this subject. I’m sure some guild leaders scour the forums often so by doing this and interjecting my advice frequently, eventually it may cause a shift. It’s minuscule chance and most likely going to take an extensive amount of time, but I hope being more engaged in the community, this idea would be implemented and cause a shift in perspectives. (For example, AB MM VIP vs AB MM anchors type of thing). DPS meters would be very helpful in vetting out those adamant Casuals and those willing to adapt and learn and improve. (It’s not necessary but still a very useful tool)
If that was your goal, then you needed a different title and first post for this thread, because that goal was not conveyed at all in your thread. Your first post and title comes off just as toxic as the behavior you’re trying to remove from the game.
My original thread was to insinuate a solution to my frustration by instigating controversial topics. I’m sort of happy the direction of this thread went because it prompted me to think of new ideas and how to best alleviate the position I am in. I won’t create a new thread, but I’ll be stalking other threads related to this and occasionally bringing up this idea.
I’m sure the sentiment for majority of experienced raiders is that they themselves know the difficulty of the content and are usually willing to help out. (This is from anecdotal experience)
I’m sure of that too. In fact, almost every experienced raider i know did think like that about themselves.
And while some of them were, in fact, really helpful, others actually were not. Some, while claiming how willing to help they were, tended to be extremely unhelpful.
I understand how you feel and that uncertainty poses a risk in alienating people from participating in raids. But the raiding community is very small when compared to the overall GW2 community. So it’s really hard to find competent raiders who are willing to help out but I’m not concerned with this because those that do a good job, often get PM’s on their competence which would encourage them to continue doing it. Those that don’t, usually don’t get that sort of encouragement and may receive flagrant criticism and may avoid trying to help again. In my eyes, this would not be an issue (I for example, suck at trying to get guilds to form a guild raid and to tackle raids using metabatle builds but from some random PuGs, I get complimented which prompts me to continue doing PuG trainings)
I’m providing my personal anecdote for those who have a strong desire to want to get into raids to prove that the challenging barrier set by Anet can be overcome and my attempts to get people specifically in guilds to get more interested in raids have failed many times and often leaving a distaste for tackling raids because of “Casuals” don’t have the synergy and don’t want to follow metabattle.
For example, some people are willing to adapt to the meta but some don’t want and since they’re in a guild, they’re more than likely wanting to avoid causing strife. So they don’t tackle raids as a guild but a few of those that want to try to PuG and when they try again to encourage their guildmates to participate, those that don’t want to follow the meta view those that did with distaste and jealousy for not being able to obtain the same progress as them.
I want Casuals, the ones that don’t like following meta and expecting to progress in raids without synergy to be kept separate from the raiding community. Like, putting on LFG “boss, LI req or KP” and then if they have neither, ask for a gear check and skill check to confirm they at least have the correct gear or skill traited to learn the boss mechanics. If they don’t and don’t want to change, then simply kick them because they are not worth the effort and doing this multiple times may increase the amount of toxicity within the GW2 community, especially veering away the Casuals adamant about not changing their builds (skills + gear + traits) for best synergy in the squad, but at the same time it also helps filter out the few people that want to do raids and are willing to learn/contribute towards the squad.
IMO, this has already happened and I’m only trying to give it more light and hope that the guild leaders of raiders lower the requirements for joining their raid guilds to help promote encourage new raiders to join and learn. (Like, not having 5boss kill requirement but rather have a snapshot of the bare minimum dps check for certain professions or perma upkeep with alacrity)
How do you propose this is done? ANet can’t add anything to the game to check for that. Just because a player has X, Y, and Z doesn’t mean that they are open to learning and ready for criticism when they mess up. A player who doesn’t have all of X, Y, and Z may be willing to learn.
Players do a good job of keeping themselves separated. You can’t for players not ready to learn to learn and you can’t force raid guilds to change their requirements.
You can only start your own training raid guild or try to get your own raid guild to allow for lower requirements.
I’m sure raiding guilds know that they are excluding possible great raiders due to their requirements but they have to put the line somewhere to exclude as many who just wish to be carried as possible.
I’m doing this by creating and commenting on similar posts like these to elucidate more on this subject. I’m sure some guild leaders scour the forums often so by doing this and interjecting my advice frequently, eventually it may cause a shift. It’s minuscule chance and most likely going to take an extensive amount of time, but I hope being more engaged in the community, this idea would be implemented and cause a shift in perspectives. (For example, AB MM VIP vs AB MM anchors type of thing). DPS meters would be very helpful in vetting out those adamant Casuals and those willing to adapt and learn and improve. (It’s not necessary but still a very useful tool)
If that was your goal, then you needed a different title and first post for this thread, because that goal was not conveyed at all in your thread. Your first post and title comes off just as toxic as the behavior you’re trying to remove from the game.
My original thread was to insinuate a solution to my frustration by instigating controversial topics. I’m sort of happy the direction of this thread went because it prompted me to think of new ideas and how to best alleviate the position I am in. I won’t create a new thread, but I’ll be stalking other threads related to this and occasionally bringing up this idea.
And all it does for me is make me want to say no to your ideas because all I’ve seen you suggest is add things that are more toxic to the game or ignore your posts as you want to start drama for drama’s sake (which is the bad kind of drama). But that’s just me.
[\quote]
“If that was your goal, then you needed a different title and first post for this thread, because that goal was not conveyed at all in your thread. Your first post and title comes off just as toxic as the behavior you’re trying to remove from the game.[/quote]
My original thread was to insinuate a solution to my frustration by instigating controversial topics. I’m sort of happy the direction of this thread went because it prompted me to think of new ideas and how to best alleviate the position I am in. I won’t create a new thread, but I’ll be stalking other threads related to this and occasionally bringing up this idea. "[/quote]
And all it does for me is make me want to say no to your ideas because all I’ve seen you suggest is add things that are more toxic to the game or ignore your posts as you want to start drama for drama’s sake (which is the bad kind of drama). But that’s just me.[/quote]
I’m not going to contiguously beat the thread that’s already dead. It’s really easy to criticize ideas when you’re not the one presenting it. I have actively tried to shape my initial idea as the thread progresses, but your chastising me consistently and expecting me to implement “your” ideas and if I don’t, you resort to a personal attack. I appreciate your opinion on how both sides should respect each other to engage in a more active gaming community and I have given you my personal opinions on that. Thank you for taking the time to be my devil’s advocate, but I will engage in enacting my personal agenda on my own terms.
P.S. – Idk how to quote so forgive me.
“If that was your goal, then you needed a different title and first post for this thread, because that goal was not conveyed at all in your thread. Your first post and title comes off just as toxic as the behavior you’re trying to remove from the game.
My original thread was to insinuate a solution to my frustration by instigating controversial topics. I’m sort of happy the direction of this thread went because it prompted me to think of new ideas and how to best alleviate the position I am in. I won’t create a new thread, but I’ll be stalking other threads related to this and occasionally bringing up this idea. "
And all it does for me is make me want to say no to your ideas because all I’ve seen you suggest is add things that are more toxic to the game or ignore your posts as you want to start drama for drama’s sake (which is the bad kind of drama). But that’s just me.
I’m not going to contiguously beat the thread that’s already dead. It’s really easy to criticize ideas when you’re not the one presenting it. I have actively tried to shape my initial idea as the thread progresses, but your chastising me consistently and expecting me to implement “your” ideas and if I don’t, you resort to a personal attack. I appreciate your opinion on how both sides should respect each other to engage in a more active gaming community and I have given you my personal opinions on that. Thank you for taking the time to be my devil’s advocate, but I will engage in enacting my personal agenda on my own terms.
P.S. – Idk how to quote so forgive me.
Not meaning to come of as personal, but your thread’s title and post came off as either someone toxic trying to split the community so they don’t have to be around those they don’t like at all or someone intentionally trying to stir up drama for drama’s sake.
Based on your other posts, I doubt you were meaning to come off either way. And I’m sorry that that didn’t get conveyed in my last post properly. I’m not trying to say that you’re toxic or just looking to start drama.
As for quoting, when you start removing quotes it can get a bit of pain to make sure you’ve got the correct quoting tags.
(edited by Seera.5916)
As Somone else who also trains people in raids, I don’t expect people to know the fight right off the bat, but I do expect them to bring the right tools for the job and not waste everyone’s time, this includes meta builds and exotic gear. If you won’t show willingness to adapt to benefit everyone, I don’t want to train you
Sorry, I salvaged my exotic gear when I made ascended versions, and I am /not/ grinding another set of leadership runes because you want exotics. Seriously, what was ANet thinking when they decided that the Dragon’s Stand runes should have the same cost as the ones from the other HoT areas despite Crystalline Ore being ridiculously less common than the other currencies.
Also, I seriously feel that you overestimate how important meta builds are. If you’ve PUG raided as much as I have, you might have noticed that most problems are from bad in combat decisions (Prioritising damaging the boss over getting to the green circles on Vale Guardian, Not throwing bombs on Sabetha, pulling transformed slublings into AoE on Slothsasor, etc.), and not from having a bad build.
Heck, the first time that I killed Sabetha, we had one DPS die to the very first flame wall and still killed her with plenty of platform health remaining.
This is an MMO RPG game. All MMO RPG involves a certain amount of grinding. Anet has already optimized the game to be more Casual friendly with the elimination of quests, experience loss upon death and even provide free repair for your gear so dying is less punishing. Leadership runes are one of the most grindy runes and admittedly I don’t run with them. However, I have played Chronomancer and have learned a lot from other raiders so I can augment here and there, like having full Commander’s armor for high dps check bosses (Gorseval, SAB, Xera, KC, Statue) and where the boss is more mechanical, I have a Minstrel armor set. Both of these sets have Runes of Durability for added toughness. So there are always variations if you don’t want to farm for the meta builds, but you will have to ask experienced raiders what type of gear do they run. Currently, I’m farming a new armor set to copy meta battle (cause I swapped back and forth using insignias) to have a 3rd armor set to maximize dps output even further without losing boon duration which means I will need Runes of Leadership. Overall, I understand DH might be boring at times, but I remind myself that this is an MMO RPG, a grindy game and those that have the best gear grinded a ton.
I feel that you missed the point. Why would I bother grinding a second set of leadership runes so that I can run exotics (which was the requirement), when my ascended gear is strictly better (Other than the backpack which is exotic so that I can use Doubloons).
Insisting on exotics is a completely ridiculous requirement.
There’s room for everyone in raids.
What needs to happen is following:
The players that prefer meta only members need to respect the groups that say “any welcome” and not try to force them to go meta or get upset when things don’t go smoothly if they’re PUGing with a “any welcome” group.
The players who don’t want to follow the meta for whatever reason need to respect the groups that say meta only and not join them and lie about it.
And since “any welcome” would accept meta builds, if there’s any confusion assume meta only and ask if you’re not if it’s alright if you run X.
Both groups need to respect each other.
Ignore dirtbeard all his posts are complaints about raids despite him not able to kill one boss.
Let’s clarify something, I have no problems with Raids.
I used to raid very frequently in WoW before there ever was a Raid Finder, in Rift I stopped being hardcore so much and basically just did Raid Rifts since quite frankly the real world responsibilities from work and being married kind of makes being part of a static raid group something for 20 something year olds. single people, or frankly people that don’t like their families and put raiding first.
With that said a lot of the SMART MMO studios made Tiered Raiding for their aging demographic that have to put things like real life first, so that can still have a taste of something that they used to enjoy.
I also enjoy the fact that most MMOs have a place for all of their classes in the End Game, granted they might not be part of Progression Tier but hey for lower Tiered Raids any class is usually welcome; hell even Rift figured that out recently.
Now I don’t like raiding in this game because of shoddy class balancing that makes Eltist Jerks banish whole classes and 90% of builds from Raiding.
It is archaic, if you go to MMO blogs like Massively even the writers in the articles comments sections are mocking the way things are run in this game by the Devs and the Community.
I support Raids, I just don’t support anything that’s a haphazard mess held together with Duct Tape while having every one enamored with it claiming it’s a Lamborghini.
You have no problem with raids…right… your personal obligations have nothing to do with raiding and it’s no ones fault but your own that you have them. I work full time and can still find a few hours to spend in game. It’s not the raid teams job to accommodate everyone, least of all you.
“If that was your goal, then you needed a different title and first post for this thread, because that goal was not conveyed at all in your thread. Your first post and title comes off just as toxic as the behavior you’re trying to remove from the game.
My original thread was to insinuate a solution to my frustration by instigating controversial topics. I’m sort of happy the direction of this thread went because it prompted me to think of new ideas and how to best alleviate the position I am in. I won’t create a new thread, but I’ll be stalking other threads related to this and occasionally bringing up this idea. "
And all it does for me is make me want to say no to your ideas because all I’ve seen you suggest is add things that are more toxic to the game or ignore your posts as you want to start drama for drama’s sake (which is the bad kind of drama). But that’s just me.
I’m not going to contiguously beat the thread that’s already dead. It’s really easy to criticize ideas when you’re not the one presenting it. I have actively tried to shape my initial idea as the thread progresses, but your chastising me consistently and expecting me to implement “your” ideas and if I don’t, you resort to a personal attack. I appreciate your opinion on how both sides should respect each other to engage in a more active gaming community and I have given you my personal opinions on that. Thank you for taking the time to be my devil’s advocate, but I will engage in enacting my personal agenda on my own terms.
P.S. – Idk how to quote so forgive me.
Not meaning to come of as personal, but your thread’s title and post came off as either someone toxic trying to split the community so they don’t have to be around those they don’t like at all or someone intentionally trying to stir up drama for drama’s sake.
Based on your other posts, I doubt you were meaning to come off either way. And I’m sorry that that didn’t get conveyed in my last post properly. I’m not trying to say that you’re toxic or just looking to start drama.
As for quoting, when you start removing quotes it can get a bit of pain to make sure you’ve got the correct quoting tags.
I am aware my title topic would be controversial. It was my original intention in supporting the sort of split in the community. I still support it now, but now I don’t have to feel as terrible when I kick someone because they don’t follow meta. Sometimes I give like 3-5 gold whenever I kick a person for trying to get into raids but it’s a training run and they don’t want to change and I’m not sure what to do. Now at least I have a sort of justification and don’t have to worry as much about trying to nurture “all” people, just those who are willing to adapt.
For quoting, I meant I do not know how to remove previous quotes to reduce the limit cap without impairing the little indentations of quotes.
As Somone else who also trains people in raids, I don’t expect people to know the fight right off the bat, but I do expect them to bring the right tools for the job and not waste everyone’s time, this includes meta builds and exotic gear. If you won’t show willingness to adapt to benefit everyone, I don’t want to train you
Sorry, I salvaged my exotic gear when I made ascended versions, and I am /not/ grinding another set of leadership runes because you want exotics. Seriously, what was ANet thinking when they decided that the Dragon’s Stand runes should have the same cost as the ones from the other HoT areas despite Crystalline Ore being ridiculously less common than the other currencies.
Also, I seriously feel that you overestimate how important meta builds are. If you’ve PUG raided as much as I have, you might have noticed that most problems are from bad in combat decisions (Prioritising damaging the boss over getting to the green circles on Vale Guardian, Not throwing bombs on Sabetha, pulling transformed slublings into AoE on Slothsasor, etc.), and not from having a bad build.
Heck, the first time that I killed Sabetha, we had one DPS die to the very first flame wall and still killed her with plenty of platform health remaining.
This is an MMO RPG game. All MMO RPG involves a certain amount of grinding. Anet has already optimized the game to be more Casual friendly with the elimination of quests, experience loss upon death and even provide free repair for your gear so dying is less punishing. Leadership runes are one of the most grindy runes and admittedly I don’t run with them. However, I have played Chronomancer and have learned a lot from other raiders so I can augment here and there, like having full Commander’s armor for high dps check bosses (Gorseval, SAB, Xera, KC, Statue) and where the boss is more mechanical, I have a Minstrel armor set. Both of these sets have Runes of Durability for added toughness. So there are always variations if you don’t want to farm for the meta builds, but you will have to ask experienced raiders what type of gear do they run. Currently, I’m farming a new armor set to copy meta battle (cause I swapped back and forth using insignias) to have a 3rd armor set to maximize dps output even further without losing boon duration which means I will need Runes of Leadership. Overall, I understand DH might be boring at times, but I remind myself that this is an MMO RPG, a grindy game and those that have the best gear grinded a ton.
I feel that you missed the point. Why would I bother grinding a second set of leadership runes so that I can run exotics (which was the requirement), when my ascended gear is strictly better (Other than the backpack which is exotic so that I can use Doubloons).
Insisting on exotics is a completely ridiculous requirement.
I’m confused. Why would you grind a 2nd set of leadership runes to run exotics? If you have ascended gear with leadership runes, then there should be no reason for you to be farming for exotic gear. I think you may have misunderstood because exotic gear is fine for raids if you’re just starting out and I don’t think anybody intentionally meant to reduce your stats in order to tackle raids. You want to have the best!
There’s room for everyone in raids.
What needs to happen is following:
The players that prefer meta only members need to respect the groups that say “any welcome” and not try to force them to go meta or get upset when things don’t go smoothly if they’re PUGing with a “any welcome” group.
The players who don’t want to follow the meta for whatever reason need to respect the groups that say meta only and not join them and lie about it.
And since “any welcome” would accept meta builds, if there’s any confusion assume meta only and ask if you’re not if it’s alright if you run X.
Both groups need to respect each other.
Ignore dirtbeard all his posts are complaints about raids despite him not able to kill one boss.
Let’s clarify something, I have no problems with Raids.
I used to raid very frequently in WoW before there ever was a Raid Finder, in Rift I stopped being hardcore so much and basically just did Raid Rifts since quite frankly the real world responsibilities from work and being married kind of makes being part of a static raid group something for 20 something year olds. single people, or frankly people that don’t like their families and put raiding first.
With that said a lot of the SMART MMO studios made Tiered Raiding for their aging demographic that have to put things like real life first, so that can still have a taste of something that they used to enjoy.
I also enjoy the fact that most MMOs have a place for all of their classes in the End Game, granted they might not be part of Progression Tier but hey for lower Tiered Raids any class is usually welcome; hell even Rift figured that out recently.
Now I don’t like raiding in this game because of shoddy class balancing that makes Eltist Jerks banish whole classes and 90% of builds from Raiding.
It is archaic, if you go to MMO blogs like Massively even the writers in the articles comments sections are mocking the way things are run in this game by the Devs and the Community.
I support Raids, I just don’t support anything that’s a haphazard mess held together with Duct Tape while having every one enamored with it claiming it’s a Lamborghini.
You have no problem with raids…right… your personal obligations have nothing to do with raiding and it’s no ones fault but your own that you have them. I work full time and can still find a few hours to spend in game. It’s not the raid teams job to accommodate everyone, least of all you.
Yet if there were a story mode version there wouldn’t be any issues with a static team accommodating an erratic schedule.
Plus a lower tier could accommodate every single class in the game while taking the pressure off of ANet to balance every class/build to be contributors.
On the one hand I believe to make all classes viable you need to nerf everything into the ground making every buff, cleanse minimal enough to not make a major difference, then every one is viable and you can really appreciate a hardcore challenge.
Plus a lower tier could accommodate every single class in the game while taking the pressure off of ANet to balance every class/build to be contributors.
They’d still need to balance at least every profession to be useful. There is no excuse in having entire professions locked out of raiding
Plus a lower tier could accommodate every single class in the game while taking the pressure off of ANet to balance every class/build to be contributors.
They’d still need to balance at least every profession to be useful. There is no excuse in having entire professions locked out of raiding
I realize this, how ever by designing each class to not fill a specific role and embody a class fantasy you wind up with fundamentally flawed classes like Necro that is supposed to be the selfish class (even though we’ve been begging for utility for years!).
Plus a lower tier could accommodate every single class in the game while taking the pressure off of ANet to balance every class/build to be contributors.
They’d still need to balance at least every profession to be useful. There is no excuse in having entire professions locked out of raiding
No, they do not. Meta is used for “the most optimal” raid build. You can play ANY profession you want in raids but people who do PuGs prefer meta because it’s the MOST OPTIMAL. If Anet adhered to your wishes, people are going to find a way to maximize certain professions utility and skills and in the end, end up with a completely new META profession but still omitting some classes out.
Like many of my peers who have suggested, if you are adamant in wanting to play a non-meta profession, then find a raid guild or friends who are willing to include you into their group. If you cannot find one, then please follow the meta and become a better raider then you have the option to play non-meta professions.
No, they do not.
Those that are chosen ALL the time are Druid, Chrono and Warrior. They are chosen for their huge up-time of buffs, or for their unique buffs. What I always asked for is to spread those unique buffs to more builds. For example, making Alacrity available to at least one more profession (Revenant?), or giving more builds abilities that work like Ranger spirits or Warrior banners etc
There is also a passive trait for party-based Condition damage that is missing, like Spotter for Precision and Empower Allies for Power, it can be given to one of the under-performing professions (Engineer?)
Making sure others can do what those “big three” can do is essential in increasing diversity as no amount of damage buffs can help.
Plus a lower tier could accommodate every single class in the game while taking the pressure off of ANet to balance every class/build to be contributors.
They’d still need to balance at least every profession to be useful. There is no excuse in having entire professions locked out of raiding
No, they do not. Meta is used for “the most optimal” raid build. You can play ANY profession you want in raids but people who do PuGs prefer meta because it’s the MOST OPTIMAL. If Anet adhered to your wishes, people are going to find a way to maximize certain professions utility and skills and in the end, end up with a completely new META profession but still omitting some classes out.
Like many of my peers who have suggested, if you are adamant in wanting to play a non-meta profession, then find a raid guild or friends who are willing to include you into their group. If you cannot find one, then please follow the meta and become a better raider then you have the option to play non-meta professions.
That is why Raiding should never have been introduced, any community that insists on such a draconian approach that excludes whole classes isn’t healthy enough to have a raiding community, especially in this day and age where every other MMO has grown past this sort of thing.
It just seems like I’m arguing modern day social points with some one I met out side of a time machine. I’m not even angry any more it’s more depressing to see what’s happened to this game when in 2012 this game was praised for innovation.
That is why Raiding should never have been introduced, any community that insists on such a draconian approach that excludes whole classes isn’t healthy enough to have a raiding community, especially in this day and age where every other MMO has grown past this sort of thing.
It just seems like I’m arguing modern day social points with some one I met out side of a time machine. I’m not even angry any more it’s more depressing to see what’s happened to this game when in 2012 this game was praised for innovation.
Profession balance would still be needed unless — in addition to adding blind grouping and a hypothetical lower-tier raid — ANet got rid of the ability to kick players from groups. That’s unlikely to happen. There are quality of life aspects to being able to kick, like removing someone who left the game without removing himself from the group. If you think that a profession perceived as useless would not be kicked even in a lower tier raid, you’re dreaming.
LFR works because of the rework of that game’s build system to simplify and role-orient trait choices. If its developer had not made an effort to make better-performing builds simple and accessible and provided a good build for at least one role for every class, LFR would not have worked as well as you seem to think it does. Exclusion based on competence/effectiveness was a part of human social interactions long before the internet and will always be with us unless competitiveness is somehow excised from humanity.
No, they do not.
Those that are chosen ALL the time are Druid, Chrono and Warrior. They are chosen for their huge up-time of buffs, or for their unique buffs. What I always asked for is to spread those unique buffs to more builds. For example, making Alacrity available to at least one more profession (Revenant?), or giving more builds abilities that work like Ranger spirits or Warrior banners etc
There is also a passive trait for party-based Condition damage that is missing, like Spotter for Precision and Empower Allies for Power, it can be given to one of the under-performing professions (Engineer?)
Making sure others can do what those “big three” can do is essential in increasing diversity as no amount of damage buffs can help.
That sounds like an interesting idea to me but after spending some time thinking about it, that would make creating similarities in each of the professions that wouldn’t make GW2 unique. Each profession has their own unique mechanic, Warrior going into Berserker mode, Mesmer with clones, Necromancer with shroud, Druid with pets, Revenant being able to swap stances, Guardian having virtues and blocks, Tempest being able to equip only one weapon but having the ability to swap to 4 elements, etc…
Your proposal is changing the fundamental elements of the game and I don’t believe Anet is willing to do that. I understand that you want to vouch for your profession and want it to be good because you’re attached to it but try a profession that is in current meta right now and learn the raid mechanics. After you’re familiar with the raid mechanics, you can always go back to your original profession and host your own PuG group or play with friends using non-meta builds/professions. Think of Anet wanting you to experience the diversity of each profession
Making some buffs more available does not remove the distinction between classes. It’s quite amusing that none of the mechanics you mentioned is relevant to what doc is talking about.
Warning! This post may contain traces of irony, sarcasm and peanuts.
There is no loyalty without betrayal. -Ann Smiley
There is no loyalty without betrayal. -Ann Smiley
That sounds like an interesting idea to me but after spending some time thinking about it, that would make creating similarities in each of the professions that wouldn’t make GW2 unique.
Some ideas I posted on older threads:
I know Warriors and Mesmers won’t like this, but why not give more builds the ability to get 25 stacks of might so a PS Warrior isn’t a must have in Raids? Why not give to at least one more build the ability to give Alacrity and a good Quickness uptime? Not to everyone, but at least TWO different builds should give the same buffs, keeps them unique enough, and opens up role slots for more diversity.
I don’t want to see “LF Druid” or “LF Chrono”, I want to see “LF Healer” and “LF for Quickness/Alacrity buffer”. It will be a huge step towards diversity.
Ask for a ROLE and not a specific BUILD
and
For example, Rangers have Spotter which increases the Precision of allies, it would definitely fit the theme of the Thief to have a similar ability, call it Reveal Weakness.
Warriors have banners which inspire and boost the abilities of allies, why not give the Revenant an ability to summon a visage of a legend, that is stationary and provides similar benefits to a Warrior banner.
Engineers are masters of alchemy. We’ve seen powerful Hylek alchemy, for example take a look at the Hylek turrets. They can provide might and quickness for a group. An Engineer could get a potion mastery that he drops aoe fields on the ground and create similar effects to those turrets.
Removing the 1-sec cooldown from Empowering Might and the Guardian competes with a Phalanx Strength Warrior for the spot of Might Stacking.
Still keeping professions unique but giving some of their buffs to more builds
I know this is off topic but I need to rant.
Can I just have one day where I can do my own thing? 5 out of 6 days I’ve worked 12 hour night shifts. I just want to kick back get a buzz on and work on my Warrior on the bare hope I might be able to raid some day with out some needy person crawling up my back side. I mean it’s like have some consideration I’ve almost worked 60 hours straight, leave me the hell alone for one night even.
Lets see some perspective here, I’ve got two days off, followed by another 12h shift then 5 days off, why can’t I do spouse time then?
End of rant.
Oh and I literally can not post new topics.
PS I distracted her with a live stream of baby cheetahs.
(edited by Oldirtbeard.9834)
Making some buffs more available does not remove the distinction between classes. It’s quite amusing that none of the mechanics you mentioned is relevant to what doc is talking about.
alacrity is an mesmer exclusive buff that reduces cooldowns which is revolves around mesmer lore. Druids have grace of the land and glyphs that buff allies. This is relevant to his discussion. He’s asking for unique boons to be accessible to other professions, negating the lore behind it. If you negate the lore, then it becomes a hollowed out game and furthermore, if Anet does heed to his opinion, for example, giving Revenant alacrity spamming + facet of nature pulsing would entirely phase out mesmers. This would just result in a shift of meta and does not solve the problem and only destroys the game. To bring in further analogies, in many other games, such as TF2, you don’t want to have a scout who can carry a Gatling gun or an engineer who can backstab or cloak.
That sounds like an interesting idea to me but after spending some time thinking about it, that would make creating similarities in each of the professions that wouldn’t make GW2 unique.
Some ideas I posted on older threads:
I know Warriors and Mesmers won’t like this, but why not give more builds the ability to get 25 stacks of might so a PS Warrior isn’t a must have in Raids? Why not give to at least one more build the ability to give Alacrity and a good Quickness uptime? Not to everyone, but at least TWO different builds should give the same buffs, keeps them unique enough, and opens up role slots for more diversity.
I don’t want to see “LF Druid” or “LF Chrono”, I want to see “LF Healer” and “LF for Quickness/Alacrity buffer”. It will be a huge step towards diversity.
Ask for a ROLE and not a specific BUILDand
For example, Rangers have Spotter which increases the Precision of allies, it would definitely fit the theme of the Thief to have a similar ability, call it Reveal Weakness.
Warriors have banners which inspire and boost the abilities of allies, why not give the Revenant an ability to summon a visage of a legend, that is stationary and provides similar benefits to a Warrior banner.
Engineers are masters of alchemy. We’ve seen powerful Hylek alchemy, for example take a look at the Hylek turrets. They can provide might and quickness for a group. An Engineer could get a potion mastery that he drops aoe fields on the ground and create similar effects to those turrets.
Removing the 1-sec cooldown from Empowering Might and the Guardian competes with a Phalanx Strength Warrior for the spot of Might Stacking.Still keeping professions unique but giving some of their buffs to more builds
It’s only going to cause a shift in the meta like in LoL, despite having a plethora of champions to select, majority of them are rarely picked in competitive gameplay. Only those with good synergies with the group are often considered and utilized. I understand there’s a difference as one is a PvP while the other is PvE, but most of the time, people prefer efficiency over ubiquity.
Only those with good synergies with the group are often considered and utilized.
That’s why I’m saying to give everyone some synergy. If you take a closer look at which professions are being used in the meta, it’s those that have synergies and the top dps. Tweaking the dps of the outperforming ones is one solution but that is not going to solve the “problem” of three builds providing a massive damage boost (it’s about 3 times more damage). By spreading those offensive buffs to more builds you allow more builds into the meta. This isn’t a moba, going from “Looking for Tempest” to “Looking for Damage Dealer”, and from “Looking for Druid” to “Looking for Healer” is how healthy build diversity works in other mmorpgs.
I know this is off topic but I need to rant.
Can I just have one day where I can do my own thing? 5 out of 6 days I’ve worked 12 hour night shifts. I just want to kick back get a buzz on and work on my Warrior on the bare hope I might be able to raid some day with out some needy person crawling up my back side. I mean it’s like have some consideration I’ve almost worked 60 hours straight, leave me the hell alone for one night even.
Lets see some perspective here, I’ve got two days off, followed by another 12h shift then 5 days off, why can’t I do spouse time then?
End of rant.
Oh and I literally can not post new topics.
PS I distracted her with a live stream of baby cheetahs.
Since you asked for perspective… you can work on your warrior when you have time. What you cannot do is force other people to help you. Owning the game entitles you to raid. It does not entitle you to expect random people in an LFG queue to want what you want. Those people you have to find. It’s unfortunate that you have so little time, because finding the like-minded does take time and effort.
Only those with good synergies with the group are often considered and utilized.
That’s why I’m saying to give everyone some synergy. If you take a closer look at which professions are being used in the meta, it’s those that have synergies and the top dps. Tweaking the dps of the outperforming ones is one solution but that is not going to solve the “problem” of three builds providing a massive damage boost (it’s about 3 times more damage). By spreading those offensive buffs to more builds you allow more builds into the meta. This isn’t a moba, going from “Looking for Tempest” to “Looking for Damage Dealer”, and from “Looking for Druid” to “Looking for Healer” is how healthy build diversity works in other mmorpgs.
I’m neutral on this idea, not entirely against nor for it as the position of the game is really fine as the only ones suffering from Raids is Engineer and Necromancer. Just pray Anet continues with their idea of unique profession abilities (turrets in LW3 and skeletons if you’re a necro or thief for Samarog’s door) implemented into raids that would provide a good reason to include these professions.
I know this is off topic but I need to rant.
Can I just have one day where I can do my own thing? 5 out of 6 days I’ve worked 12 hour night shifts. I just want to kick back get a buzz on and work on my Warrior on the bare hope I might be able to raid some day with out some needy person crawling up my back side. I mean it’s like have some consideration I’ve almost worked 60 hours straight, leave me the hell alone for one night even.
Lets see some perspective here, I’ve got two days off, followed by another 12h shift then 5 days off, why can’t I do spouse time then?
End of rant.
Oh and I literally can not post new topics.
PS I distracted her with a live stream of baby cheetahs.
Since you asked for perspective… you can work on your warrior when you have time. What you cannot do is force other people to help you. Owning the game entitles you to raid. It does not entitle you to expect random people in an LFG queue to want what you want. Those people you have to find. It’s unfortunate that you have so little time, because finding the like-minded does take time and effort.
Nah I was just venting about my personal life at the time, that was against no one on the forums; I had just wanted some gaming time to my self and my wife started invading my decompression time. It’s weird I know but I was an only child and I need isolation time with private endeavors. Especially when considering that for 12 hours a day doing Healthcare you are literally putting your self second in a way that’s way more extreme than any type of profession other than being a Fire Fighter or Paramedic perhaps.