Guild Wars 2

Nokaru.7831:

spoj.9672:

We all know even anet arent stupid enough to make such a drastic change.

You can rest assured that even if this the original post was a good suggestion (it isn’t), ANet won’t change anything because of PvP! It’s extremely rare that they implement a significant class change solely for PvE, and it’s even rarer that they would change anything for dungeons specifically.

The only place where wider or map wide boon sharing would make any sense are raids but i’m not even sure that would be a good idea either.

Maybe the better solution would be to just make all melee skills hit at 1,200 range.

Verificus.4320:

[…]

Four posts and you’re still missing the point. The combat system in GuildWars2 is fine! Look at WvW. We rarely see pure melee builds there, because it’s not as useful. Why is that so? Is the combat system different? No.
Are the opponents different? Yes they are. The problem lies within the encounters, not within the combat system.
Defiance hinders the control aspect and the support aspect isn’t as needed, so it can be included into the high-damage builds.

Don’t try to fix something that isn’t broken and work on your analysis instead.

spoj.9672:

I wouldnt have needed to “bully” you if you had just provided counter arguements instead of avoiding the topic.

You should put an emphasis on “try” in my statement of “try to bully”.

You weren’t happy with the answers I gave, likely because you tried bullying the answers out of posters.

Im a horrible person. Sorry.

Leo G.4501:

spoj.9672:

I wouldnt have needed to “bully” you if you had just provided counter arguements instead of avoiding the topic.

You should put an emphasis on “try” in my statement of “try to bully”.

You weren’t happy with the answers I gave, likely because you tried bullying the answers out of posters.

Thanks for making him troll. -.-
He tried his very best to convince you that the combat system isn’t broken.
Any other person, me included, would’ve start trolling way sooner.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Your suggestions of altering the combat of GW2 wont fix the problem because there is no problem with the combat system, as I’ve said before.
If you want a less melee-dependent “meta”, you should ask ANet for bosses who require different roles, so that some players can attack the bosses from range without screwing the players in melee range.

You say there’s no problem that exists. The way I see it, the combat is fairly twitch/skill based and can have various flavors and approaches to gain success, even if not all of them are optimal. None of that is a problem. The problem is the encounters themselves. No, not the encounters being broken or that encounters favor damage. I’m mainly talking about the variety in the encounters. Most of them are rather formulaic and predictable. Once you learn them, it becomes merely a script.

So scripting variety in new encounters….it’s not that hard since apparently you’ve got programming wizards on the forums that think their ideas are amazing and easy to implement. But the combat system isn’t free of fault either. Others touched on the system incentivizing close range and I think that hamstrings how encounters will be scripted. You can introduce encounters that are punishing to melee or neutralizes some of zerker stat strategies but at the end of the day, the meta decides how to destroy an encounter quickly and it’s likely going to be very similar to the approach now because the system incentivizes melee huddles.

Melee should incentivize itself rather than the system gravitating strategies around it.

Ironically thats what weve all been saying. The system is fine. The content isnt. D*rp.

Leo G.4501:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Your suggestions of altering the combat of GW2 wont fix the problem because there is no problem with the combat system, as I’ve said before.
If you want a less melee-dependent “meta”, you should ask ANet for bosses who require different roles, so that some players can attack the bosses from range without screwing the players in melee range.

You say there’s no problem that exists. The way I see it, the combat is fairly twitch/skill based and can have various flavors and approaches to gain success, even if not all of them are optimal. None of that is a problem. The problem is the encounters themselves. No, not the encounters being broken or that encounters favor damage. I’m mainly talking about the variety in the encounters. Most of them are rather formulaic and predictable. Once you learn them, it becomes merely a script.

So scripting variety in new encounters….it’s not that hard since apparently you’ve got programming wizards on the forums that think their ideas are amazing and easy to implement. But the combat system isn’t free of fault either. Others touched on the system incentivizing close range and I think that hamstrings how encounters will be scripted. You can introduce encounters that are punishing to melee or neutralizes some of zerker stat strategies but at the end of the day, the meta decides how to destroy an encounter quickly and it’s likely going to be very similar to the approach now because the system incentivizes melee huddles.

Melee should incentivize itself rather than the system gravitating strategies around it.

There is no problem with the melee – range split because the combat system doesn’t encourage you to melee, it encourages you to stick together. Since melee weapons are stronger than ranged weapons and since it’s not impossible to melee the most bosses, melee will always be the prefered way to fight encounters.

spoj.9672:

Ironically thats what weve all been saying. The system is fine. The content isnt. D*rp.

Apparently you aren’t reading my post.

I said the content is a problem but you’ll be fighting an uphill battle if the system reinforces what is currently optimal with no drawbacks or competing metas.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Leo G.4501:

spoj.9672:

I wouldnt have needed to “bully” you if you had just provided counter arguements instead of avoiding the topic.

You should put an emphasis on “try” in my statement of “try to bully”.

You weren’t happy with the answers I gave, likely because you tried bullying the answers out of posters.

Thanks for making him troll. -.-
He tried his very best to convince you that the combat system isn’t broken.
Any other person, me included, would’ve start trolling way sooner.

Because asking someone to post civilly when they are bullying people with loaded questions is apparently wrong?

Leo G.4501:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Leo G.4501:

spoj.9672:

I wouldnt have needed to “bully” you if you had just provided counter arguements instead of avoiding the topic.

You should put an emphasis on “try” in my statement of “try to bully”.

You weren’t happy with the answers I gave, likely because you tried bullying the answers out of posters.

Thanks for making him troll. -.-
He tried his very best to convince you that the combat system isn’t broken.
Any other person, me included, would’ve start trolling way sooner.

Because asking someone to post civilly when they are bullying people with loaded questions is apparently wrong?

If you don’t get what he has said a dozen times now, it’s no wonder he loses his temper.
And you’re wrong with what you claim. Melee has drawbacks, like having to know all the encounters. I want to see you trying to fight lupi for the first time.
Melee, combined with zerker gear and the right trait and skill setup has the least drawbacks and there is nothing wrong about that. There will always be one way to fight encounters as efficient as possible. The reason for melee being the most efficient way is because the encounters are so easy and don’t force you to use something else.

Leo G.4501:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Leo G.4501:

spoj.9672:

I wouldnt have needed to “bully” you if you had just provided counter arguements instead of avoiding the topic.

You should put an emphasis on “try” in my statement of “try to bully”.

You weren’t happy with the answers I gave, likely because you tried bullying the answers out of posters.

Thanks for making him troll. -.-
He tried his very best to convince you that the combat system isn’t broken.
Any other person, me included, would’ve start trolling way sooner.

Because asking someone to post civilly when they are bullying people with loaded questions is apparently wrong?

You refused to answer him multiple times, dodged every moment when it could be discussed and mocked him constantly. Get out of my internet finally …

Leo G.4501:

spoj.9672:

Ironically thats what weve all been saying. The system is fine. The content isnt. D*rp.

Apparently you aren’t reading my post.

I said the content is a problem but you’ll be fighting an uphill battle if the system reinforces what is currently optimal with no drawbacks or competing metas.

That literally does not make any sense. There can only be one meta. You change what it is by changing balance or redesigning content. But whatever changes you make will always lead to single most efficient way to play. Thats simple logic. What you want is other styles to be more effective even though they are already perfectly viable. You want to close the gap between the two sides i guess? Well to do that you alter the content and/or you rebalance the classes. But you keep the core system the same. And doing too much with balance is unfavourable due balance in gw2 being based around PvP. Ferocity nerf was an attempt at closing the gap.

The system doesnt reinforce anything. It allows total freedom. Its the players that force optimal play. Because most players want to run things optimally. If the content was harder then more players would struggle to suceed with the meta in pugs. Which means they would advocate other builds more often in pugs. But there would still be a single meta. So obviously we can deduce that the content needs to be harder and more complex.

Verificus,

I’m glad there are people willing to think and imagine when the makes propositions on the forums. It’s a pain to see the same mentality of following behind those before because it can get boring and you miss out on lots of possibilities of there! Without beating around the bush, thank you for keeping an open mind and stick with it. GW2 is a great game but it’s far from perfect.

That said, while I don’t agree with all the ideas you made, not even the the purpose behind others, I still think you ideas are more than worth a discussion. But I’d probably would be off topic to discuss them here. Perhaps you can start a new thread so posters can poke around your ideas point for point.

Leo G.4501:

Verificus,

I’m glad there are people willing to think and imagine when the makes propositions on the forums. It’s a pain to see the same mentality of following behind those before because it can get boring and you miss out on lots of possibilities of there! Without beating around the bush, thank you for keeping an open mind and stick with it. GW2 is a great game but it’s far from perfect.

That said, while I don’t agree with all the ideas you made, not even the the purpose behind others, I still think you ideas are more than worth a discussion. But I’d probably would be off topic to discuss them here. Perhaps you can start a new thread so posters can poke around your ideas point for point.

Sadly he wrote about the exact same things in the exact same ways which we need to point it out why it is flawed every single week.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Leo G.4501:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Leo G.4501:

spoj.9672:

I wouldnt have needed to “bully” you if you had just provided counter arguements instead of avoiding the topic.

You should put an emphasis on “try” in my statement of “try to bully”.

You weren’t happy with the answers I gave, likely because you tried bullying the answers out of posters.

Thanks for making him troll. -.-
He tried his very best to convince you that the combat system isn’t broken.
Any other person, me included, would’ve start trolling way sooner.

Because asking someone to post civilly when they are bullying people with loaded questions is apparently wrong?

If you don’t get what he has said a dozen times now, it’s no wonder he loses his temper.
And you’re wrong with what you claim. Melee has drawbacks, like having to know all the encounters. I want to see you trying to fight lupi for the first time.
Melee, combined with zerker gear and the right trait and skill setup has the least drawbacks and there is nothing wrong about that. There will always be one way to fight encounters as efficient as possible. The reason for melee being the most efficient way is because the encounters are so easy and don’t force you to use something else.

Needing to know the encounters isn’t a legitimate drawback to melee, though. Not knowing the encounter can get anyone killed regardless of range so is a drawback to anyone. But having more or less drawbacks isn’t the reason why players gravitate to the same strategies, it’s just a matter of what does the most damage which shots the notion that range would suddenly become the most optimal in the foot.

spoj.9672:

What you want is other styles to be more effective even though they are already perfectly viable. You want to close the gap between the two sides i guess? Well to do that you alter the content and/or you rebalance the classes. But you keep the core system the same. And doing too much with balance is unfavourable due balance in gw2 being based around PvP. Ferocity nerf was an attempt at closing the gap.

There’s always more than one way to accomplish a goal.

My thought is more than closing a gap needs to be done for this game.

And I realize too drastic a change will cause problems but that’s why you discuss. Even for little changes, you need discussion to note every ripple the change will make.

The system doesnt reinforce anything. It allows total freedom. Its the players that force optimal play. Because most players want to run things optimally. If the content was harder then more players would struggle to suceed with the meta in pugs. Which means they would advocate other builds more often in pugs. But there would still be a single meta. So obviously we can deduce that the content needs to be harder and more complex.

Not rewarding some paths while rewarding other paths greatly is reinforcing you not to take the rewardless path.

Huh? Both methods are rewarding. Not everyone cares about speed.

Leo G.4501:

But having more or less drawbacks isn’t the reason why players gravitate to the same strategies, it’s just a matter of what does the most damage which shots the notion that range would suddenly become the most optimal in the foot.

I hope you’re not suggesting that ranged weapons should do the same damage as melee weapons, because that would just be stupid. If you’re not then we’re done because there is no problem with melee doing more damage as ranged weapons. If you still want your ranged encounters, ask the devs to create such encounters.

The point I was trying to make in short though:

There is a difference between what is best for the game from a design standpoint and what is best when it comes to fun/attracting more players/catering to various levels of casual play.

My suggestions might be terrible for anyone who values the competitive design pve as it currently is in the game but my suggestion was to instead of having these constant discussions on design/gameplay etc, have discussions about what is more enjoyable for the average casual player.

Playing a healer role is fun, playing a tank role is fun. Playing whatever kind of support/control incarnation GW2 would have of the above two roles is also fun. Everyone running the same gear, same DPS spec, same goals. Everyone being able to everything without having to invest. E.g. every class has several ways to completely nullify damage. All of these things are not FUN to the average casual player, which is the majority of those who play MMO’s in general. They don’t feel unique, strong, epic, heroic in a system like this. I feel it’s all Arenanet’s fault for not clearly communicating to us what their intended target group is. Is it pvp’rs? Well that SPvP e-sport thing they wanted to have? What ever happened to that? PvP in this game is far from being as important/competitive as say WoW or SC2. Is it casual LS’rs? Then why do so many builds and playstyles suck. Yes they are viable, but if option lets you do 1k crits because you spend a bit in tanking stats and option 2 suddenly quadrouples your DPS, why would you ever choose option 1? Yes there will always be a meta, but for anything but the top level PvE content, any spec/build/whatever should feel just as powerful. No matter your preferred playstyle, the game must make you feel like a hero through it’s design.

This is the point I tried to make. Sometimes you have to sacrifice balance, proper design (encounter/mechanics etc) to simply have a game that is more fun rather than better. Take Hearthstone for instance. That game is RNG gallore. They could remove as many RNG elements as possible and make it more competitive and better designed, but would it be just as fun? My guess is the majority of it’s players would answer with a resounding no. Players (the majority of them) and their wishes always come first and game developers must adhere to them. Ideas are always maliable and it’s up to the developer to implemenet as many wishes the players have but at the same time not destroying their own game.

^ Or you could go buy yourself a game you find fun instead of playing one you don’t like.
Most people who bought this game did it because of how it is.

That is a typical response I would expect. ‘If you don’t like it don’t play it’. I’m not alone in this opinion. I’ve got a very large sample size (relative to this forum and its posters) of people who all feel the same way. This game was marketed quite different from how it turned out to be. They did buy it for what it is (or better what they thought it would be) but it failed to live up. I would actually buy another game if there were any real competitors for GW2. There aren’t any. GW2 has a niche target group, a niche in which they currently have more or less monopoly. Which means they can get away with alot of crap. Doesn’t mean the game can’t be made better. The primary reason I play is because I love the lore, the world and have been connected to the franchise for quite some time. I love the game despite disliking many things about it. The game has alot of potential that isn’t and hasn’t ever been used. This saddens me. And if the recent thread with Gaile is any indication I’d say alot of players (while having various reasons for disliking the current game which could potentially be totally unrelated to PvE) are in the same boat as I am.

Wow. This may be the best troll I have ever seen in a thread. Spoj, how did you manage to stay “in the fray” for so long? You are my new hero.

Kudos to you Leo G. You have won the internetz for the week.

I think if I actually bothered to read everything up until this point in the thread I’d have wanted to facedesk.

I can’t believe the OP is serious. I really can’t.

Verificus.4320:

There is a difference between what is best for the game from a design standpoint and what is best when it comes to fun/attracting more players/catering to various levels of casual play.

Your entire position is flawed. You claim to represent “casual” players, whatever that is. And yet you believe that the condition stack issue does not need a rework? You want the highest condition player’s conditions to trump everyone else. Guess what? That means the player who has built for max condition damage, who has the best stats, will get all the condition damage in group events and everyone else goes begging. So, all of the “casuals” who play condition will be applying them in vain if 1-2 optimized condition builds are at the event. How many so-called casuals will have the best stats. Congratulations, your suggestion stabs the demographic you claim to represent in the back.

You also seem to believe that the entire game needs to be aimed at said “casual” players. Most of it is. Dungeons, the only place where a meta actually means anything, were supposed to be the small portion of the game aimed at “coordinated teams of skilled players.”

Player demographics are not split into just casual and hardcore. There are a myriad of play styles. Game developers need to keep as many demographics happy as possible, not just cater to one if they want to maintain a healthy game population. As it stands, GW2 provides an awful lot of content that caters to the power fantasies of players. All content does not have to do so.

I strongly disagree that games have to be designed for players who don’t care about balance. A well designed game is a good game. There need to be risk/reward elements to game design. Game design needs to build in opportunity costs. Failure to do so means the game will stink.

-signed: a supremely casual player

The OP isn’t serious, this is a troll thread and everyone is a victim.

I do like the OP’s suggestion of having boons automatically shared with the entire party, regardless of where they are. However, I think this would probably require a huge coding overhaul and would probably be more bother than it was worth.

For the record, I have no issues with LoS or stacking, but I do support all weapons and playstyles being viable choices.

Zaxares.5419:

For the record, I have no issues with LoS or stacking, but I do support all weapons and playstyles being viable choices.

But they are already viable solutions, they might not be optimal but they are still viable for clearing any content in this game.

Eat eat you nasty forum bug. >:(

Time to sum up the thread of the week in 12 points (12 is full of swek) for the lazy :

1/ OP wants infinite boon range so the people ranging away from the stack can get the boons/help with theirs.

2/ He is met with the classic “melee is more risk thus more rewards”, here in the form of much more efficient combat style, and the “pvp balance matters, not the rest”…

3/ Then comes G, the Zodiacal sign of those born between July the 21st and August 21st. He has nothing to say but writes that he has ideas. Doesn’t expose them.

4/ Regulars of the dungeon subforum start pulling out the bingo cards

5/ An enthusiast ProNecroElitist™ comes in and tries to reason the guys by showing them it’s bad to ask for the whole game to be changed just because they aren’t happy with it.

6/ Zodiac boy weirdly quotes me and tries to pit me against my pronecrofrand. I tell him that’s a bad move as we’re saying the same stuff and get dismissed for asking him to participate in the debate. Apparently Zodiac boy is an important person that doesn’t have time for others…

7/ ProForumNecro engages into debate mode and shows Zodiac boy that he’s trolling and fails at providing answers.

8/ I realize that Zodiac boy has the best dodging skillz I was ever given to see.

9/ OP attempts a comeback but quickly realizes that melee will remain the best and that his suggestion is a bit overkill. Zodiac boy stays oblivious to everything and says he has ideas but not the time to develop them and owes nothing to anyone, all the while trolling on a whooping 3 pages. He thinks he looks bright but his arguing capabilities have long since dwindled in the shadows.

10/ OP proceeds to say nobody is answering him when he was actually told that his ideas had obvious gamebreaking flaws and proceeds to /ignore everyone, thus proving to be at Zodiac Boy’s level when it comes to arguing.

11/ OP and Zodiac boy state that both are apparently extremely knowledgeable in psychology. They proceed to conclude that while they are participating in this discussion to their utmost, the rest of the people are just having a denial phase.

12/ Dungeon subforum regulars filled their bingo cards and are enjoying the popcorn.

/threadoftheweek

Perfect, you just forgot the part where they had to make a post on another subforum to complain about you all and your toxicity.
Well, to be honest they are better out of our beloved dungeon subforum.
#justelitiststalk

Leo G.4501:

hybrid.5027:

Here is my response: they should be a drain on their party. They should know that and they should feel somewhat bad about it. They should make an effort to learn best practices and implement them if possible. If they can’t, won’t, or don’t care that’s fine but they shouldn’t have their bad choice reinforced with positivity.

IMO, this is a far more selfish attitude. To me, it’s putting a ‘meta’ (oooh, the naughty word!) before players not because it is what’s best for the group, but what’s best to conform to some strategy…a strategy that might not be best suited for all the players of your team.

Encouraging people to use best practices is selfish? Laughable. For the record, I don’t care what stupid crap pugs do. If I join a pug I do it under the assumption that they will do stupid stuff and fail and I’ll have to carry. I don’t expect them to use the community strategies but when they do its a nice bonus.

Some think they are the kings of the dungeon forums and others rally around them to bully everyone into submission…
Besides, what you don’t realize is that ranged can be more rewarding than melee if the gameplay demands it. It is a pity that appearantly the gameplay in dungeons will never be adjusted again however.

phoenix.3465:

Some think they are the kings of the dungeon forums and others rally around them to bully everyone into submission…
Besides, what you don’t realize is that ranged can be more rewarding than melee if the gameplay demands it. It is a pity that appearantly the gameplay in dungeons will never be adjusted again however.

Some think they are part of the dungeon forum community and others rally around them to try and help newcomers to the forums…
Besides, what you don’t realize is that melee is always more rewarding than ranged because the gameplay is designed in such way. It’s a pity that apparently the phiwism in these forums will never be adjusted again however.

Plz upvote.

phoenix.3465:

Some think they are the kings of the dungeon forums and others rally around them to bully everyone into submission…
Besides, what you don’t realize is that ranged can be more rewarding than melee if the gameplay demands it. It is a pity that appearantly the gameplay in dungeons will never be adjusted again however.

Yes its more rewarding if the encounter encourages it. Or if you want a safer/easier approach. That doesnt change the fact that this suggestion was completely flawed to begin with.

I didnt know a large group of people who disagree with something = ganging up and bullying. Maybe theres a good reason for such a large amount of people disagreeing with the suggestion?

phoenix.3465:

Besides, what you don’t realize is that ranged can be more rewarding than melee if the gameplay demands it.

Can you give (preferably GW2-related) examples, along with a coherent explanation of why this would be consistent with good design principles?

This word “bullying”. You keep using it. I don’t think it means what you think it means.

Tom Yzf.5872:

This word “bullying”. You keep using it. I don’t think it means what you think it means.

^^ GOD i hate that word!

It’s come to mean “this guy doesn’t agree with me” instead of “this person is randomly oppressing me for no reason other than the fact that they can”

Enaretos.8079:

phoenix.3465:

Some think they are the kings of the dungeon forums and others rally around them to bully everyone into submission…
Besides, what you don’t realize is that ranged can be more rewarding than melee if the gameplay demands it. It is a pity that appearantly the gameplay in dungeons will never be adjusted again however.

Some think they are part of the dungeon forum community and others rally around them to try and help newcomers to the forums…
Besides, what you don’t realize is that melee is always more rewarding than ranged because the gameplay is designed in such way. It’s a pity that apparently the phiwism in these forums will never be adjusted again however.

Plz upvote.

+1

Grimm is the King of the dungeon forum.

-sincerely Grimm

I like the new title, that’s true commitment to the discussion!

What kind of self-respecting stacker spams all his 5 weapon skills in order and then steps left? :P

hybrid.5027:

Leo G.4501:

hybrid.5027:

Here is my response: they should be a drain on their party. They should know that and they should feel somewhat bad about it. They should make an effort to learn best practices and implement them if possible. If they can’t, won’t, or don’t care that’s fine but they shouldn’t have their bad choice reinforced with positivity.

IMO, this is a far more selfish attitude. To me, it’s putting a ‘meta’ (oooh, the naughty word!) before players not because it is what’s best for the group, but what’s best to conform to some strategy…a strategy that might not be best suited for all the players of your team.

Encouraging people to use best practices is selfish? Laughable. For the record, I don’t care what stupid crap pugs do. If I join a pug I do it under the assumption that they will do stupid stuff and fail and I’ll have to carry. I don’t expect them to use the community strategies but when they do its a nice bonus.

To me, the way you worded it said “If you don’t abide by the best practices then you should be punished.”

If that’s not what you meant then you should word your intent better. Why would you want to make people feel bad playing a game? Reward the players that do things right, sure, but punish players that aren’t actively trying to do bad is crossing the line.

oxtred.7658:

Perfect, you just forgot the part where they had to make a post on another subforum to complain about you all and your toxicity.
Well, to be honest they are better out of our beloved dungeon subforum.
#justelitiststalk

Stepping outside of my normal civil posting etiquette:

Now that’s just sad. Your beloved subforum? Hah, the dungeon subforums must have gotten a lot more exclusive since I’ve been gone.

I’m sure I missed out on something magical here.

Yes. Yes you did.

lol, he went through and deleted all his posts. better to run when you have nothing to stand on

Leo G.4501:

hybrid.5027:

Leo G.4501:

hybrid.5027:

Here is my response: they should be a drain on their party. They should know that and they should feel somewhat bad about it. They should make an effort to learn best practices and implement them if possible. If they can’t, won’t, or don’t care that’s fine but they shouldn’t have their bad choice reinforced with positivity.

IMO, this is a far more selfish attitude. To me, it’s putting a ‘meta’ (oooh, the naughty word!) before players not because it is what’s best for the group, but what’s best to conform to some strategy…a strategy that might not be best suited for all the players of your team.

Encouraging people to use best practices is selfish? Laughable. For the record, I don’t care what stupid crap pugs do. If I join a pug I do it under the assumption that they will do stupid stuff and fail and I’ll have to carry. I don’t expect them to use the community strategies but when they do its a nice bonus.

To me, the way you worded it said “If you don’t abide by the best practices then you should be punished.”

If that’s not what you meant then you should word your intent better. Why would you want to make people feel bad playing a game? Reward the players that do things right, sure, but punish players that aren’t actively trying to do bad is crossing the line.

Not sure how you interpreted that from what Nike said.

Leo G.4501:

hybrid.5027:

Leo G.4501:

hybrid.5027:

Here is my response: they should be a drain on their party. They should know that and they should feel somewhat bad about it. They should make an effort to learn best practices and implement them if possible. If they can’t, won’t, or don’t care that’s fine but they shouldn’t have their bad choice reinforced with positivity.

IMO, this is a far more selfish attitude. To me, it’s putting a ‘meta’ (oooh, the naughty word!) before players not because it is what’s best for the group, but what’s best to conform to some strategy…a strategy that might not be best suited for all the players of your team.

Encouraging people to use best practices is selfish? Laughable. For the record, I don’t care what stupid crap pugs do. If I join a pug I do it under the assumption that they will do stupid stuff and fail and I’ll have to carry. I don’t expect them to use the community strategies but when they do its a nice bonus.

To me, the way you worded it said “If you don’t abide by the best practices then you should be punished.”

If that’s not what you meant then you should word your intent better. Why would you want to make people feel bad playing a game? Reward the players that do things right, sure, but punish players that aren’t actively trying to do bad is crossing the line.

My exact quote was, "They should make an effort to learn best practices and implement them if possible. If they can’t, won’t, or don’t care that’s fine but they shouldn’t have their bad choice reinforced with positivity.

Wow quite a difference from your paraphrase huh? The point of the thread is this guy wanted a buff to the people who play suboptimally so they are more optimal. My reply was that best practices should be encouraged and bad practices not rewarded.

You warped that so far from what I actually said it’s clear you are debating in bad faith. You’re a disingenuous maledictor. You frequently accuse people of the worst abuses, yet look at your own actions here, its simply pathetic.