Guild Wars 2

So the off-hand phantasms according to the wiki recharge as follows:

Duelist – 5.4s
Swordsman – 3.2s
Warden – 8.07s

The duelist in open world will deal about 5k, same for the swordsman, warden does about 10k. When watching Brazil’s DPS giant test I noticed he used duelist and swordsman phantasms and it left me thinking, sure the warden gives you a nice big number, but if in a situation where you want to maximise DPS, since the swordsmen and duelist recharge quicker, does that make them better DPS? Since the warden apparently has a 5 second (wtf, 5s was censored?) duration for its attack as well, that means it attacks every 13s whereas the swordsman hits extremely fast so it’s poking for 5k every 3.2s. Duelist attacks for a little longer, but still hits much faster than the warden.

In a situation where your focus pull isn’t necessary, is it worth going sword/sword and sword/pistol or is there some better combination?

I mean even though we have pretty trashy DPS, I want to make the most of what us mesmers do have.

You have to remember that iwarden/iduelist are multi hitter=tones of bleeds set on your target and iswordman can only set one stack. Since this is in dungeon’s section, my guess is you’re running a phantasm build in dungeons? Why? Most phantasms are single target and unless you’re fighting a boss, that alone decrease your team dps significantly. They also die extremely fast if its anything like high level fractals and since IC nerf they aren’t spammable enough.

Warden gives a stacking, spammable reflect that also deals damage, and focus in general is pretty useful. Pistol is raw DPS, so if you are looking at Brazil’s speed kill videos, he’s not specced for balance, he just wants to spike the giant down as fast as possible.

I usually run 10/0/0/25/25 with sword and focus offhands. Phantasms tend to die very quickly so the faster respawn on phantasms offsets any DPS loss you might suffer.

Wardens sit in one spot and spin unless a mob LoS’s them. They don’t move around and won’t really do anything if a mob or boss moves around. Duelist and Swordsman will attack a target that has moved into a different position, so that’s why I used Sword and Pistol. I also use those at Lupicus too since Warden is dead weight there.

Warden gives a stacking, spammable reflect that also deals damage, and focus in general is pretty useful. Pistol is raw DPS, so if you are looking at Brazil’s speed kill videos, he’s not specced for balance, he just wants to spike the giant down as fast as possible.

I was on about from a pure damage perspective. If reflecting projectiles is not an issue, is it better to use the warden which gives us the 10k hit but then longer recharge, or the swordsmen which will hit for 5k (of course, if it doesn’t crit you do a pitiful 2k whereas with the warden’s 12 hits you don’t lose out too much if you miss a crit or two) but recharges faster.

Brazil also seemed to use quite a normal phantasm rotation so I wouldn’t say he was doing anything “out there” apart from the time warp.

I usually run 10/0/0/25/25 with sword and focus offhands. Phantasms tend to die very quickly so the faster respawn on phantasms offsets any DPS loss you might suffer.

Why not cut the 25 in illusions for 30 in dueling for fury, -20% cooldowns on sword and pistol skills, guaranteed projectile combo with the pistol plus 300+ precision and 30%+ crit damage? You get the faster phantasm cooldowns but I think you even get extra precision when you have your sword and pistol equipped as well.

Wardens sit in one spot and spin unless a mob LoS’s them. They don’t move around and won’t really do anything if a mob or boss moves around. Duelist and Swordsman will attack a target that has moved into a different position, so that’s why I used Sword and Pistol. I also use those at Lupicus too since Warden is dead weight there.

Warden doesn’t reflect Lupi’s projectiles? (I haven’t done Arah in aaaaaages)

Mesmer DPS clearly insane, omg look 2 second phase 1 brie?!?!?!

TheMaskedParadigm.3629:

Wardens sit in one spot and spin unless a mob LoS’s them. They don’t move around and won’t really do anything if a mob or boss moves around. Duelist and Swordsman will attack a target that has moved into a different position, so that’s why I used Sword and Pistol. I also use those at Lupicus too since Warden is dead weight there.

I can tell you that is a very bad idea.

The warden also hits multiple trgets, has more potential to proc sharper images and it has utility in the form of projectile protection and whirl finishers

Alissah.9281:

The warden also hits multiple trgets, has more potential to proc sharper images and it has utility in the form of projectile protection and whirl finishers

And if it stand still, spins, and doesn’t hit anything, it’s kind of useless.

colesy.8490:

Why not cut the 25 in illusions for 30 in dueling for fury, -20% cooldowns on sword and pistol skills, guaranteed projectile combo with the pistol plus 300+ precision and 30%+ crit damage? You get the faster phantasm cooldowns but I think you even get extra precision when you have your sword and pistol equipped as well.
.

It’s because a large percentage of the mesmer player base essentially handicapped themselves by relying on IC before the nerf that they are incapable of playing without it.

^^
Testing is hard isn t it?

IC for PvE phantasm is still the best thing
that coming from tests of many players already discussed.

1st thing everyone did was to put aside IC and play without it..
1st objection was the usual L2P….put aside quite quickily because l2p is not involved. (its just the usual stuff people say when can t discuss things…)

I won t repeat why it doesnt work and player skill is not involved in it.
Just browse the mesmer forum…..

What’s the point in using IC when you can get faster cooldowns for all of your weapon skills anyway?

I recently did a numbers crunch on mesmer DPS and something like 10/30/0/0/30 with pistol and sword gives outrageously high DPS numbers. Something in the range of 14k fully buffed with 3 phantasms up, whereas guardians and warriors get around 10k.

Mesmers are the new DPS meta, maybe. Probably not though cause phantasms still die all the time.

So you’ve done this in-game or you’ve just run numbers?

“I recently did a numbers crunch and”

just makes me want to reach for the shotgun to blow my kittening brains out

On paper Mesmer DPS has the potential to be huge.
There are 3 major flaws tho:
- it’s bound to phantasm, thus AI, and their survivability. Very unreliable to plain unviable for some bosses like alpha with costant aoe DMG.
-bound to 1st thing, the phant DPS reach the apex with 3 phant out. This means it ramps up slowly AND it “reset” when your phants get killed. Again, good on paper but unreliable.
-there are some bugs hindering it. Phantasmal haste, which would male a great DPS increase, just do not work sometimes.

So how does the DPS of 3x duelist hold up to say, a guardian with greatsword/sword+focus?

inb4 everyone apologizes to Guang again after Mesmers become the new meta.

The warden seems to spawn at max melee range next to your target, and is then rooted for the duration of its spin. Unless the mob stands perfectly still or moves toward your iwarden, you won’t get the full effect. I remember reading somewhere that they supposedly fixed it so iwarden will run up to its target between spins but in my experience its inconsistent, and often it will die before its gotten through its first attack. I’ve gotten frustrated placing down iwarden only to have the mob step a few inches away and leave my phantasm wildly flailing in the air. I tend to use focus now for bosses that can be pulled against a wall and rooted from melee stacking, and sword for bosses that move around.

The one thing warden has going for it is that it’s attack is aoe – so if you can place it in the center of a big pack of mobs it can do great dps, and it will continue its full attack even after its target dies. But again the mobs need to be closely clumped up and relatively stationary.

The warden’s reflect is pretty unreliable, especially in a fight like lupi – it’s placed semi randomly and you have to be stacked right on top of your phantasm for it to work. Take the golem -turret fight in CoE – your warden might pop up in front of a buff turret, or it might not. It’s never been a deciding factor for me, just a bonus that comes from making temporal curtain a reflect.

colesy.8490:

So how does the DPS of 3x duelist hold up to say, a guardian with greatsword/sword+focus?

I’m 90% sure that Swordsmen are better than Duelists.
And a Mesmer with 3 fully buffed Swordsmen does more dps than any other profession except ele.

But this won’t ever happen, in any common situation mesmer have the lowest dps output.

TheMaskedParadigm.3629:

inb4 everyone apologizes to Guang again after Mesmers become the new meta.

don’t you mean inb4 guang gets someone else to do his heavy lifting

Broadicea.8294:

TheMaskedParadigm.3629:

inb4 everyone apologizes to Guang again after Mesmers become the new meta.

don’t you mean inb4 guang gets someone else to do his heavy lifting

That’s step 2. He’s done step 1. Step 3 is the best, and that’s when everyone realizes he’s right.

But yeah, Memser is sort of like Regigigas in terms of DPS.

Dub.1273:

colesy.8490:

So how does the DPS of 3x duelist hold up to say, a guardian with greatsword/sword+focus?

I’m 90% sure that Swordsmen are better than Duelists.
And a Mesmer with 3 fully buffed Swordsmen does more dps than any other profession except ele.

But this won’t ever happen, in any common situation mesmer have the lowest dps output.

Well duelist gives eight bleed stacks (which do more damage with 25 might) and can interact with say, a time warp for eight confusion stacks which is like 1k damage per skill activation.

On the other hand, OH-sword does have faster recharge, doesn’t channel for as long as duelist and hits pretty kitten hard.

—

As a general question, would calculating the DPS from my average attack rotation be a simple case of adding up the damage and dividing by the number of seconds or is there a little more to it? Surely it can’t be as simple as that. I feel more comfortable discussing things like DPS when I have actual numbers at hand.

the only number that matters minutes : seconds of clear time

Since your working with ai, practical dps is going to be a lot different then theoretical dps. The best way to test it would probably be on risen giants or any champion mob you feel comfortable soloing. It may not seem as scientific as testing in the mist, but after enough kills with each weapon you’ll be able to tell which weapon set gives you the fastest clear times. You can definitely test on the mist dummies and use that as a place to build a hypothesis, but when your working with a class that’s dps depends so heavily on ai with tiny health pools, testing things out “in the field” is an important part of figuring out what kind of dps you can realistically expect in a dungeon environment.

No need to over react on the numbers since guang already stated that it’s only if you can maintain 3 phantasms, which is not possible in many situations.

Also, mesmers are the worst class in terms of dps for fighting trash mobs for the simple fact that even if you could maintain your phantasms without them dying (which is never gonna happen anyway), they do disappear once your target dies, and in a zerk group there is NEVER enough time for a mesmer to load up on phantasms. Take more than one mesmer for things like the dredge fractal and have fun spending an hour on the trash mobs trying to summon phantasm after phantasm and seeing them die, then having to rely on your incredibly pitiful sword dps. I’ve never felt better for having a mesmer when there are waves after waves of stuff to kill. Also the best phantasm for AoE damage is also the one with the dumbest AI.. as in, I’m not even sure it has an “AI” to speak of. kitten warden.

artificial stupidity

TheMaskedParadigm.3629:

inb4 everyone apologizes to Guang again after Mesmers become the new meta.

Like Arah Path 1 is faster than Path 3?
But I do agree that one should apologize about his mistake just to prove that he’s a better person than the other.

Dub.1273:

colesy.8490:

So how does the DPS of 3x duelist hold up to say, a guardian with greatsword/sword+focus?

I’m 90% sure that Swordsmen are better than Duelists.
And a Mesmer with 3 fully buffed Swordsmen does more dps than any other profession except ele.

But this won’t ever happen, in any common situation mesmer have the lowest dps output.

+1

/15 chars

No need to over react on the numbers since guang already stated that it’s only if you can maintain 3 phantasms, which is not possible in many situations.

Yes, well I’d rather know how to test something like this myself since Guang is always too lazy to make a video proving what he says.

He doesn’t have to prove anything because it’s simple math, not rocket science. Practical considerations and in this case cooldowns are a different thing.

AndrewSX.3794:

On paper Mesmer DPS has the potential to be huge.
There are 3 major flaws tho:
- it’s bound to phantasm, thus AI, and their survivability. Very unreliable to plain unviable for some bosses like alpha with costant aoe DMG.

About coe you should know that an iwarden can survive 1 or 2 Alpha aoes
That makes them sure to land at least 1 or 2 full Attacks.

Also phantasms are luckily immune to some ground aoes

Now sometimes you can keep phantasm alive for the Whole fight/phase (svanir fractal for example but even volcanic fractal they tend to live a lot)

Sometimes you can t….that is why you need IC to be reliable and for the same reason your dps is not so bad as people says.

-bound to 1st thing, the phant DPS reach the apex with 3 phant out. This means it ramps up slowly AND it “reset” when your phants get killed. Again, good on paper but unreliable.

most of times you don t get all your phantasms killed, but with IC you will have 2 or 3 constantly out.

for trash mobs you have your issues ….mostly because trash mobes moves a lot and die fast.
So your phantasms dies a lot

But for bosses, mesmer dps is not bad.

LordByron.8369:

About coe you should know that an iwarden can survive 1 or 2 Alpha aoes
That makes them sure to land at least 1 or 2 full Attacks.

-snip-

But for bosses, mesmer dps is not bad.

Because as said, the DPS ramps up over time until you get 3 phant out. Boss fights are the only scenario where…well…the mob itself last long enough to reach that point.

Even with IC you’ll need 20-30 sec or more (depending on phant) to reach a decent/top dps with 2/3 phants (of same kind i mean. you can istantly summon 2 phant with the 2 weapon set and then wait 16 sec for recast the first one, thus reaching 3 phant cap quite fast). Ofc, taking in account the scenario where boss plain ignore your phant and they can survive long enough.

About CoE, depends on path, tactic and phant used – but if you spawn a duelist at range on P1 and he get a dragon’s thooth floating on his head, he will simply melt.
Using the right phant is part of being a decent mesmer tho.

a warden in a speed run deasl 12.000+ per attack
Add your damage.

Obviously the opening is Always Izerker, iwarden…..or if you want more dps 2 offhand weapons with phants like pistol+focus or sword+focus.

Phantams are summoned somehow in a position where they won t be harmed by front Attacks.

Bosses ignores completely phantams except for random Attacks like volcanic shaman Arrow (and you are really glad if your phants are hit there, its where you spam illusions to save your party).

On the paper, phantasms are bad in boss fights.
In game they are extremely good and efficient due to a lot of things.
So they don t die so easily

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

I recently did a numbers crunch on mesmer DPS and something like 10/30/0/0/30 with pistol and sword gives outrageously high DPS numbers. Something in the range of 14k fully buffed with 3 phantasms up, whereas guardians and warriors get around 10k.

Mesmers are the new DPS meta, maybe. Probably not though cause phantasms still die all the time.

One thing I don’t get here, is if you went and used 3 fully buffed phantasms, wouldn’t it have make more sense to stick 25 in inspiration for 15%+ phantasm damage?

I believe 300 precision, 30% critdamage and 4% per readied mantra increase your dps more than 15% for your phantasms only.

Well you obviously keep the 30 points in dueling.

4% per mantra only affects your own DPS though, not your phantasms as well, it’s why I’ve been trying out different sigils rather than my usual X slaying/force or night since phantasms don’t take damage %+ bonuses, whereas they would take the power you receive from a bloodlust sigil or might.

Perception > Bloodlust.

You would use 10/30/0/25/5 then, i guess?

So I know for stuff like speedkilling Lupi you’d want a straight up 30/30 mantra build, but what’s the best general build for generic dungeon runs?

Dub.1273:

Perception > Bloodlust.

You would use 10/30/0/25/5 then, i guess?

Why perception?

And I just run 10/30/0/30/0, there doesn’t seem to be anything worth sticking 5 points in besides inspiration, might as well take a grandmaster trait.

colesy.8490:

Dub.1273:

Perception > Bloodlust.

You would use 10/30/0/25/5 then, i guess?

Why perception?

And I just run 10/30/0/30/0, there doesn’t seem to be anything worth sticking 5 points in besides inspiration, might as well take a grandmaster trait.

Perception tends to be > bloodlust in ideal cases, thieves being the only exception I can think of (that I know of), since they can hit 100% crit chance without it. Math might work out differently for Mesmers in terms of Phantasms, but in terms of reflects – bloodlust isn’t helpful.

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

colesy.8490:

Dub.1273:

Perception > Bloodlust.

You would use 10/30/0/25/5 then, i guess?

Why perception?

And I just run 10/30/0/30/0, there doesn’t seem to be anything worth sticking 5 points in besides inspiration, might as well take a grandmaster trait.

Perception tends to be > bloodlust in ideal cases, thieves being the only exception I can think of (that I know of), since they can hit 100% crit chance without it. Math might work out differently for Mesmers in terms of Phantasms, but in terms of reflects – bloodlust isn’t helpful.

Guardian and Ranger don’t really have a use for Perception stacks. Bloodlust tends to be better for them.

Well currently I’m on 59% crit chance, so that’s 79% for phantasms. If you have banner of discipline + spotter, that makes for 73% + phantasmal fury, right? Without spotter, you get 66% + fury. I don’t even have problems getting crits on my own in the open world, so I’m not seeing what’s so necessary about the extra precision.

colesy.8490:

Well currently I’m on 59% crit chance, so that’s 79% for phantasms. If you have banner of discipline + spotter, that makes for 73% + phantasmal fury, right? Without spotter, you get 66% + fury. I don’t even have problems getting crits on my own in the open world, so I’m not seeing what’s so necessary about the extra precision.

It just works out on paper to be higher DPS gain, is all. As was mentioned, some classes (Thief, Guardian, and apparently Ranger) are better off with an investment into Power (bloodlust) due to their crit chance being near 100% (so that perception would put them over).

Again, whether this is true or not for Phantasm Mesmers, idk. Spreadsheets aren’t my thing, I’m just going off of knowledge from others.

My necro build benefits more from bloodlust apparently aswell. Atleast thats what nike told me. Not that anyone takes a necro haha.

Which build? I’ll crunch numbers.

TheMaskedParadigm.3629:

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

colesy.8490:

Dub.1273:

Perception > Bloodlust.

You would use 10/30/0/25/5 then, i guess?

Why perception?

And I just run 10/30/0/30/0, there doesn’t seem to be anything worth sticking 5 points in besides inspiration, might as well take a grandmaster trait.

Perception tends to be > bloodlust in ideal cases, thieves being the only exception I can think of (that I know of), since they can hit 100% crit chance without it. Math might work out differently for Mesmers in terms of Phantasms, but in terms of reflects – bloodlust isn’t helpful.

Guardian and Ranger don’t really have a use for Perception stacks. Bloodlust tends to be better for them.

When using WoR Perception is always better than Bloodlust.

Dub.1273:

TheMaskedParadigm.3629:

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

colesy.8490:

Dub.1273:

Perception > Bloodlust.

You would use 10/30/0/25/5 then, i guess?

Why perception?

And I just run 10/30/0/30/0, there doesn’t seem to be anything worth sticking 5 points in besides inspiration, might as well take a grandmaster trait.

Perception tends to be > bloodlust in ideal cases, thieves being the only exception I can think of (that I know of), since they can hit 100% crit chance without it. Math might work out differently for Mesmers in terms of Phantasms, but in terms of reflects – bloodlust isn’t helpful.

Guardian and Ranger don’t really have a use for Perception stacks. Bloodlust tends to be better for them.

When using WoR Perception is always better than Bloodlust.

I just use Signets on my Guardian.

haviz.1340:

Which build? I’ll crunch numbers.

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?fQAQRBIhhu1IjW6elmxGDfCA6Ru46cMjjXm+w6A-jAyAYrBRTQgpMgUBgkXR0YLuFRjVXjpcJiqBA-e

TheMaskedParadigm.3629:

Dub.1273:

TheMaskedParadigm.3629:

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

colesy.8490:

Dub.1273:

Perception > Bloodlust.

You would use 10/30/0/25/5 then, i guess?

Why perception?

And I just run 10/30/0/30/0, there doesn’t seem to be anything worth sticking 5 points in besides inspiration, might as well take a grandmaster trait.

Perception tends to be > bloodlust in ideal cases, thieves being the only exception I can think of (that I know of), since they can hit 100% crit chance without it. Math might work out differently for Mesmers in terms of Phantasms, but in terms of reflects – bloodlust isn’t helpful.

Guardian and Ranger don’t really have a use for Perception stacks. Bloodlust tends to be better for them.

When using WoR Perception is always better than Bloodlust.

I just use Signets on my Guardian.

Everyone uses Signets on Guardian. Signet of Mercy, Wrath and Judgement OP.