Guild Wars 2

imo “extra stats” is precisely the wrong direction to take the rewards for any content, especially with an exponential price curve

EcoRI.9273:

I want to be able to buy 1power/1 AR infusions that can be combined to be more powerful stats(2^n-1). Considering that it cost me 1500g to get 12 +5power infusions for my thief. I basically have reached a point where I have nothing I want to buy now and a stats reward would be nice.

Sounds an aweful lot like power creep to me, which i swhat I love about this game, not having that. Which is also what concerns me with that mastery system they’re introducing.

Always thought the “here’s some better gear to make what you were doing easiser” idea was just so wrong. Your ability to defeat content you have already done should get easier through actually mastering the content, not through gaining stats to make it easier.

Same reason I loved some of the raids in my old games that gave alternative routes to quicker but harder completions. Do you do each boss one by one? or do you release them all and pound 5 bosses at once?

More than increased rewards I’d love to see more of that, I think it was spoj hitting on it in a different thread, giving content that allows alternative routes and real creativity and “hard modes” that allow for quicker completion if you’re up to the challenge.

I guess personally I’m driven by what I find fun content rather than rewards.

Jerus.4350:

EcoRI.9273:

I want to be able to buy 1power/1 AR infusions that can be combined to be more powerful stats(2^n-1). Considering that it cost me 1500g to get 12 +5power infusions for my thief. I basically have reached a point where I have nothing I want to buy now and a stats reward would be nice.

Sounds an aweful lot like power creep to me, which i swhat I love about this game, not having that. Which is also what concerns me with that mastery system they’re introducing.

Always thought the “here’s some better gear to make what you were doing easiser” idea was just so wrong. Your ability to defeat content you have already done should get easier through actually mastering the content, not through gaining stats to make it easier.

Same reason I loved some of the raids in my old games that gave alternative routes to quicker but harder completions. Do you do each boss one by one? or do you release them all and pound 5 bosses at once?

More than increased rewards I’d love to see more of that, I think it was spoj hitting on it in a different thread, giving content that allows alternative routes and real creativity and “hard modes” that allow for quicker completion if you’re up to the challenge.

I guess personally I’m driven by what I find fun content rather than rewards.

if masteries are mostly like hang gliding type things, you arent gonna be gaining power really, just utility. its power creep for jump puzzles, where you can cheat occasionally by hang gliding… but anything with a reward worth its salt requires killing things and hopefully we wont get simple masteries like “+x% damage vs y after killing z of them” unless its strictly against new content thats been balanced with a power ramp in mind.

hopefully theyre all like the candle in SAB — it did damage ofc but its autoattack was slower so using it wasnt a power increase, but you had to melt the icefall to get through world 2-3 so you had to have it.

insanemaniac.2456:

Jerus.4350:

EcoRI.9273:

I want to be able to buy 1power/1 AR infusions that can be combined to be more powerful stats(2^n-1). Considering that it cost me 1500g to get 12 +5power infusions for my thief. I basically have reached a point where I have nothing I want to buy now and a stats reward would be nice.

Sounds an aweful lot like power creep to me, which i swhat I love about this game, not having that. Which is also what concerns me with that mastery system they’re introducing.

Always thought the “here’s some better gear to make what you were doing easiser” idea was just so wrong. Your ability to defeat content you have already done should get easier through actually mastering the content, not through gaining stats to make it easier.

Same reason I loved some of the raids in my old games that gave alternative routes to quicker but harder completions. Do you do each boss one by one? or do you release them all and pound 5 bosses at once?

More than increased rewards I’d love to see more of that, I think it was spoj hitting on it in a different thread, giving content that allows alternative routes and real creativity and “hard modes” that allow for quicker completion if you’re up to the challenge.

I guess personally I’m driven by what I find fun content rather than rewards.

if masteries are mostly like hang gliding type things, you arent gonna be gaining power really, just utility. its power creep for jump puzzles, where you can cheat occasionally by hang gliding… but anything with a reward worth its salt requires killing things and hopefully we wont get simple masteries like “+x% damage vs y after killing z of them” unless its strictly against new content thats been balanced with a power ramp in mind.

hopefully theyre all like the candle in SAB — it did damage ofc but its autoattack was slower so using it wasnt a power increase, but you had to melt the icefall to get through world 2-3 so you had to have it.

Well even the hang gliders won’t let you cheese jumping puzzles since they can’t be used in the vanilla areas and the new JPs (provided that there are any) will probably be designed with gliders in mind.

My concern is that there is a fractal mastery… what does that mean? If it’s simply a barrier to entry for new levels, ok, that’s fine, if it’s “this will make your level 50 easier” that’s when I start to have my doubts.

I’m an old school MMO player, power creep is something I’ve done, and while those games always had content in which you basically needed new gear, I still always had my issues with it. Mianly that you usually go say t2 gear to get into t3 raids, t3 gear to make t3 raids easy… and that isn’t much fun, unless there are hard mode mechanics that allow you to really push it, and persoanlly I saw very few of those, the ones that did were awesome though.

We’ll have to wait and see about the Fractal Mastery. I’m very interested to know what’s in store there as well, as what they include/don’t include will determine a lot of things about Fractals in the future.

I also just want to say to a few posters above that I don’t agree with the argument that “Fractals being unrewarding is good”. I realize that because it’s unrewarding, few low skill or poor attitude players are trying to get into it, so you get fewer not-so-great players in your groups. While on the surface that sounds good, it means in reality you have fewer people trying to learn the content and higher attrition of players who do know the content. Rewards being good in Fractals would mean that more people learn the content, more people do the content, and more people feel good about the content. Sure you’ll get some rotten eggs in the bunch, but I think as higher levels of Fractals are introduced, the Agony gate will encourage the top players to stay on top of the curve, so you will still get exclusivity in the quality of groups you run with. That’s my two cents, anyway.

Rising Dusk.2408:

We’ll have to wait and see about the Fractal Mastery. I’m very interested to know what’s in store there as well, as what they include/don’t include will determine a lot of things about Fractals in the future.

I also just want to say to a few posters above that I don’t agree with the argument that “Fractals being unrewarding is good”. I realize that because it’s unrewarding, few low skill or poor attitude players are trying to get into it, so you get fewer not-so-great players in your groups. While on the surface that sounds good, it means in reality you have fewer people trying to learn the content and higher attrition of players who do know the content. Rewards being good in Fractals would mean that more people learn the content, more people do the content, and more people feel good about the content. Sure you’ll get some rotten eggs in the bunch, but I think as higher levels of Fractals are introduced, the Agony gate will encourage the top players to stay on top of the curve, so you will still get exclusivity in the quality of groups you run with. That’s my two cents, anyway.

Honestly the only time in fractals I have a problem with is 1-10 while pugging. Once you start hitting 30+ people tend to know what theyre doing. When I take people I know into 30+ we more or less just breeze through and laugh when people take really silly deaths like on bloomhunger in swamp because someone doesnt like a certain song on pandora and alt tabs and gets downed (its always me :p).

insanemaniac.2456:

imo “extra stats” is precisely the wrong direction to take the rewards for any content, especially with an exponential price curve

I would agree too but the items are already in the game. A player can get +70extra offensive stats past the ascended gear level if they don’t mind spending over 1k gold.

Travis the Terrible.4739:

Rising Dusk.2408:

We’ll have to wait and see about the Fractal Mastery. I’m very interested to know what’s in store there as well, as what they include/don’t include will determine a lot of things about Fractals in the future.

I also just want to say to a few posters above that I don’t agree with the argument that “Fractals being unrewarding is good”. I realize that because it’s unrewarding, few low skill or poor attitude players are trying to get into it, so you get fewer not-so-great players in your groups. While on the surface that sounds good, it means in reality you have fewer people trying to learn the content and higher attrition of players who do know the content. Rewards being good in Fractals would mean that more people learn the content, more people do the content, and more people feel good about the content. Sure you’ll get some rotten eggs in the bunch, but I think as higher levels of Fractals are introduced, the Agony gate will encourage the top players to stay on top of the curve, so you will still get exclusivity in the quality of groups you run with. That’s my two cents, anyway.

Honestly the only time in fractals I have a problem with is 1-10 while pugging. Once you start hitting 30+ people tend to know what theyre doing. When I take people I know into 30+ we more or less just breeze through and laugh when people take really silly deaths like on bloomhunger in swamp because someone doesnt like a certain song on pandora and alt tabs and gets downed (its always me :p).

I have met people on fractals 50 who do not know the basics such as how the hammer works on cliffside fractal

I’m glad to see opposing viewpoints, although I honestly didn’t expect them. I would like to clarify my reasoning here:

Because those that have been sticking to the hardest content have had rewards that are unattainable due to bugs or just not implemented, and because the only measurable way to determine if someone has spent a lot of time completing fractals is standard relics (Some people may have converted Pristines to save space) I feel that a reward that new people can progress towards or veterans can enjoy immediately would be a welcome addition.

Also, RisingDusk, if you have anyones ear I have submitted several bug reports about strange reward behavior. Specifically, vials of mists essence drop at level 50 solid ocean from the Jade Constructs with surprising frequency, and the reward chest from Molten Facility is worse than a story mode dungeon chest. Last 2 runs that thing gave me 1 blue and my tokens. Seems inappropriate for that end reward to be so much less rewarding than the others. (Molten Boss chest is inconsistently bad, but that could just be confirmation bias. Molten Facility chest is just always bad.) It would be reassuring to know that someone up there at Anet is made aware that this should at least be looked at.

Shinki.8045:

Also, RisingDusk, if you have anyones ear I have submitted several bug reports about strange reward behavior. Specifically, vials of mists essence drop at level 50 solid ocean from the Jade Constructs with surprising frequency, and the reward chest from Molten Facility is worse than a story mode dungeon chest. Last 2 runs that thing gave me 1 blue and my tokens. Seems inappropriate for that end reward to be so much less rewarding than the others. (Molten Boss chest is inconsistently bad, but that could just be confirmation bias. Molten Facility chest is just always bad.) It would be reassuring to know that someone up there at Anet is made aware that this should at least be looked at.

There are a lot of bug reports that have accumulated over the years and have gone unanswered, so I am working with the devs to get some developer buy-in to fixing them (or at least confirming that they are logged). Once I have that, I will be rallying the community to help me generate a complete list of issues.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Shinki.8045:

Also, RisingDusk, if you have anyones ear I have submitted several bug reports about strange reward behavior. Specifically, vials of mists essence drop at level 50 solid ocean from the Jade Constructs with surprising frequency, and the reward chest from Molten Facility is worse than a story mode dungeon chest. Last 2 runs that thing gave me 1 blue and my tokens. Seems inappropriate for that end reward to be so much less rewarding than the others. (Molten Boss chest is inconsistently bad, but that could just be confirmation bias. Molten Facility chest is just always bad.) It would be reassuring to know that someone up there at Anet is made aware that this should at least be looked at.

There are a lot of bug reports that have accumulated over the years and have gone unanswered, so I am working with the devs to get some developer buy-in to fixing them (or at least confirming that they are logged). Once I have that, I will be rallying the community to help me generate a complete list of issues.

Not sure if you were around 6 months ago, but Regina came in and had the community compile bugs for each dungeon and fractals. She took them and claimed she was passing them along to the team. There has been no word on those, though there have been a few fractal fixes of late.

I wished they allowed you to purchase the Fractal Tonic with 10k relics or 2 stacks of pristine relics. Now, that would be nice, considering all the 100s of fractals I ran not seeing more than 4 chests and only gotten 6 of the skins (not counting the dups).

kitten your RNG Anet and MF.

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Not sure if you were around 6 months ago, but Regina came in and had the community compile bugs for each dungeon and fractals. She took them and claimed she was passing them along to the team. There has been no word on those, though there have been a few fractal fixes of late.

Oh I certainly pitched in on those. In fact, after Regina moved on and Gaile was made head of forum communications I had PMed Gaile (and got a response!) about the lack of info. The response was that they got that feedback, but that’s about it.

Rising Dusk.2408:

There are a lot of bug reports that have accumulated over the years and have gone unanswered, so I am working with the devs to get some developer buy-in to fixing them (or at least confirming that they are logged). Once I have that, I will be rallying the community to help me generate a complete list of issues.

Much thanks.

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Not sure if you were around 6 months ago, but Regina came in and had the community compile bugs for each dungeon and fractals. She took them and claimed she was passing them along to the team. There has been no word on those, though there have been a few fractal fixes of late.

I was, and I actually contributed in at least one of them. I’ll try to inquire as to the state of those when next I chat with ANet people.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Not sure if you were around 6 months ago, but Regina came in and had the community compile bugs for each dungeon and fractals. She took them and claimed she was passing them along to the team. There has been no word on those, though there have been a few fractal fixes of late.

I was, and I actually contributed in at least one of them. I’ll try to inquire as to the state of those when next I chat with ANet people.

I think they put them on a table somewhere.

serenke.4806:

Getting them guaranteed will turn fractals – the only place which is not afflicted by this – into something resembling a regular workplace.

That is your opinion. For me Fractals are exactly like dungeons -> a grind. The only reason why I enjoy dungeons a bit more is because I get guaranteed rewards that are useful to me (gold). Fractals are just as much work, but without the guaranteed reward that I consider worthwhile. I don’t see how giving players a guaranteed way of achieving their goal would make it more like work.
It doesn’t really matter if you spam Fractals to get more relics or to get more dice rolls, the latter just feels less rewarding and gives less people an incentive to run them, since they might get nothing in return.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Not sure if you were around 6 months ago, but Regina came in and had the community compile bugs for each dungeon and fractals. She took them and claimed she was passing them along to the team. There has been no word on those, though there have been a few fractal fixes of late.

I was, and I actually contributed in at least one of them. I’ll try to inquire as to the state of those when next I chat with ANet people.

I can’t help but think that rather than rallying the forum to compile a new list, it might be better to just have Anet work through the old lists first. There were a lot of ideas there, collected into lots of different threads. Plenty for them to work on!

(Also, fool me once (CDI), fool me twice (Regina), fool me thrice?)

Does anyone have a list of links to all of those threads compiled for Regina handy? The search functionality makes digging them out a nightmare. If not I’ll do it this weekend. Thanks.

Anyway, I didn’t mean to derail the thread.

One Note Chord.5031:

Rising Dusk.2408:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Not sure if you were around 6 months ago, but Regina came in and had the community compile bugs for each dungeon and fractals. She took them and claimed she was passing them along to the team. There has been no word on those, though there have been a few fractal fixes of late.

I was, and I actually contributed in at least one of them. I’ll try to inquire as to the state of those when next I chat with ANet people.

I can’t help but think that rather than rallying the forum to compile a new list, it might be better to just have Anet work through the old lists first. There were a lot of ideas there, collected into lots of different threads. Plenty for them to work on!

(Also, fool me once (CDI), fool me twice (Regina), fool me thrice?)

This is my feeling too. Lists were compiled for each dungeon. I won’t be participating if they ask for new lists.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Does anyone have a list of links to all of those threads compiled for Regina handy? The search functionality makes digging them out a nightmare. If not I’ll do it this weekend. Thanks.

Anyway, I didn’t mean to derail the thread.

I was under the impression that they were moved somewhere. Because they all vanished once Regina closed them.

spoj.9672:

I was under the impression that they were moved somewhere. Because they all vanished once Regina closed them.

Bleh.

Rising Dusk.2408:

spoj.9672:

I was under the impression that they were moved somewhere. Because they all vanished once Regina closed them.

Bleh.

Yes, this is what happened. Regina promised she was sending them on to the devs and closed the threads.

Here is the thread in which she asked for our input:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Very-disappointing-news-for-you-guys/page/2

Here is where I asked for an update:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Dungeon-Inquiry/first

Here is the fractal feedback thread:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Fractal-Feedback-Thread-Suggestions/page/2#post4426881

Regina wrote on that thread:

“As I mentioned here, I will be locking these threads and will be putting them together to send over to the devleopers for feedback.
Ideally, I will be highlighting one post per thread—one which succinctly compiles all the feedback. This is what I will be looking for. If I don’t find that, I will do my best to capture the feedback from each thread overall.
Here is what is stickied:
Reward rebalance suggestions
General suggestions
Fractals of the Mists
Arah
Twilight Arbor
Crucible of Eternity
Ascalonian Catacombs”

Here is the COE thread:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Suggestions-Crucible-of-Eternity/first#post4326319

AC:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Suggestion-Ascalonian-Catacombs/first#post4426891

TA:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Twilight-Arbor-Suggestion/first#post4340931

Reward rebalancing:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Reward-rebalancing-Suggestion

General:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Unofficial-Dungeon-Suggestion-Thread/first#post4326196

Arah:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Arah-List-for-Devs/page/2#post4426875

There you go. That should be all of them.

I know i’m just one example, but I’m a player who quit running fractals for good. I have full ascended with about 90 agony resistance and Lvl 50 which i got soon after fractured came out(also was 50 and running 48 almost daily before the patch reset me). I ran countless fractals trying to get the greatsword, and ended up with about 9-10 weaps total(considering how many fractals i ran luck was not on my side at all). 2 of them being staff and 3 of them being warhorn, never got the greatsword. I got all the rings I could ever want, most are now vendored to make space. I can run a few dungeons in the same time it takes one full fractal run and make triple or quadruple what i would make doing fractals. It created a new hatred in me for gambling and i avoid it at all costs for my own sanity. The only way i will ever return to fractals is if they change the rewards. Otherwise i hope fractals does die because of like minded people. Then maybe anet will see what pure rng does to some of its playerbase(the unlucky ones are driven away). And then finally change the rewards :] . On a good note, since i quit fractals I’ve made 2 legendaries and saving for a third! And seeing the fractal mastery gives me a little hope but I don’t know enough about it yet.

Also you can get a ton of karma from teq, no need to run fractals for anything except the weapons or tonic which are pure rng. Everything else can be acquired better elsewhere imo. I would rather craft ascended than rng for it. So by all means up the rewards :]

Veydar.5017:

serenke.4806:

Getting them guaranteed will turn fractals – the only place which is not afflicted by this – into something resembling a regular workplace.

That is your opinion. For me Fractals are exactly like dungeons -> a grind. The only reason why I enjoy dungeons a bit more is because I get guaranteed rewards that are useful to me (gold). Fractals are just as much work, but without the guaranteed reward that I consider worthwhile. I don’t see how giving players a guaranteed way of achieving their goal would make it more like work.
It doesn’t really matter if you spam Fractals to get more relics or to get more dice rolls, the latter just feels less rewarding and gives less people an incentive to run them, since they might get nothing in return.

So basically you – and most other people here – actually find dungeons/fractals/the game a grind and don’t really do anything for the sake of doing it but to get the awesome rewards. The whole thing with everything in this game is, the community wouldn’t lift a finger if not rewarded by lots of in-game gold or items they can turn into gold.

If you recall how in the beginning everybody was running around in CoF gear because it was considered high-end gear and a full set meant you completed your zerk set. Now we turn dungeon tokens into ectos and salvage materials and only a few actually wear CoF things and people only run dungeons as a source of gold and find it a drag (we cry for better rewards from them all the time).

Now apply the same mechanic to fractals, give skins for relics and ruin it just like every other dungeon. I understand that people quit doing fractals because they didn’t get the skin they wanted, but i have to ask, once you get your skin for relics wouldn’t you quit anyway? How is it different if you run 100 fractals, get the desired skin and quit or if you run 100 fractals, end up with a few skins you didn’t want and quit because you were disappointed? Bottom line is, you’ve stopped doing fractals…

Imagine if people would do content because of the challenge, the company (doing guild runs), and only consider the reward on third place. It all happens in the mind, you can turn anything into a grind if your first and foremost incentive is that you want to get something.

serenke.4806:

Now apply the same mechanic to fractals, give skins for relics and ruin it just like every other dungeon. I understand that people quit doing fractals because they didn’t get the skin they wanted, but i have to ask, once you get your skin for relics wouldn’t you quit anyway? How is it different if you run 100 fractals, get the desired skin and quit or if you run 100 fractals, end up with a few skins you didn’t want and quit because you were disappointed? Bottom line is, you’ve stopped doing fractals…

To answer your question. If the rewards weren’t terrible I wouldn’t have quit to begin with. I still currently run teq everyday for over a year now because the karma and 2g is worth it. To this day i still dont have teq hoard.. as is the nature of my account with rng only skins. And after around 400 or more runs its kinda pathetic i still don’t have it. But you get my point.

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

There you go. That should be all of them.

Thank you very much.

serenke.4806:

Now apply the same mechanic to fractals, give skins for relics and ruin it just like every other dungeon. I understand that people quit doing fractals because they didn’t get the skin they wanted, but i have to ask, once you get your skin for relics wouldn’t you quit anyway? How is it different if you run 100 fractals, get the desired skin and quit or if you run 100 fractals, end up with a few skins you didn’t want and quit because you were disappointed? Bottom line is, you’ve stopped doing fractals…

Imagine if people would do content because of the challenge, the company (doing guild runs), and only consider the reward on third place. It all happens in the mind, you can turn anything into a grind if your first and foremost incentive is that you want to get something.

This isn’t what I’m asking for specifically. I’m actually fine with having Fractal Skins as an RNG reward, but I can completely understand the desire to allow progression to earn them (hopefully on an account-bound basis). What I am hoping for is that Fractals can be made equally as rewarding in gold earned as spending time in other dungeons. Preferably in a way that can specifically reward Fractals veterans due to many bugs that kept rewards out of their grasp or having their progress erased.