Necro not optimal for fractals

Necro not optimal for fractals

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Bohantopa.5729

Bohantopa.5729

Long post

I understood your idea (should have used “is” instead of “might”, my bad), just said that your post sounded as if a 3rd necro should not use epidemic which can lead to misunderstanding with people without enough math knowledge.
And of course if you want to compare 2 different group setups you have to calculate each and every value that is relevant to the best of ones ability (might, banners, quickness, alacricity, vulnerability, other conditions for epi etc.). You would also have to analyze the situation: can the boss be meleed continously, will the group be able to stay stacked, is there even an add to bounce epi off etc. which can be quite difficult.

Now about your 3 cases: It looks like you are giving numbers for global dps (or at least multiple targets) or you are distributing the epidemic dps gain on a single target to all reapers. (I can not explain the dps gain of Necro A otherwise).
Most situations only the dps on a single target is important so it should look like:

Case1:
Necro A: normal dps

Case 2:
Necro A: normal dps (bounces away from the boss to an unimportant add)
Necro B: normal dps + epi dps (bounces to the boss)

Case 3:
Necro A: normal dps
Necro B: normal dps + epi dps
Necro C: normal dps + epi dps (also bounces to the boss)

Using Epi bounce does not multiply damage, it adds a certain value (that value is dependant on the number of conditions). This value is added to every necros dps that bounces back.

(This btw goes a little far for this topic, which I personally dont care about. I just keep running my ele in fractals, it’s the class I’m used to the most.)

(edited by Bohantopa.5729)

Necro not optimal for fractals

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Posted by: aelfwe.4239

aelfwe.4239

Now about your 3 cases: It looks like you are giving numbers for global dps (or at least multiple targets) or you are distributing the epidemic dps gain on a single target to all reapers. (I can not explain the dps gain of Necro A otherwise).
Most situations only the dps on a single target is important so it should look like:

Case1:
Necro A: normal dps

Case 2:
Necro A: normal dps (bounces away from the boss to an unimportant add)
Necro B: normal dps + epi dps (bounces to the boss)

Case 3:
Necro A: normal dps
Necro B: normal dps + epi dps
Necro C: normal dps + epi dps (also bounces to the boss)

Necro A = 21k

Necro B = 21k

Source:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/4v76gq/qt_updated_guides_and_dps_benchmarks_for_all/

Epidemic Bounce (in raid) effect 14k

Average necro dps gain dut to Epidemic Bounce 14k/2=7k

Source

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/4vivo3/calculating_the_value_of_epidemic/

Result:

Necro dmg = 21k+7k = 28k

28k/21k = 1.33

You can rougly translate the dps gain from the epidemic bounce on 1,3 coefficent within 2 necroes

This coefficent do not improve if you put a 3rd necro

It improve if you put a condie ps war

I cant’ explain it better but if you ain’t getting this you are missing the reason that makes necro viable in raid and fotm right now

Aelfwe Dark Asura Mesmer\Thief,
FREE PYRO

Necro not optimal for fractals

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Posted by: Alex Shatter.7956

Alex Shatter.7956

My static group does MT 100 4 necros 1 druid healer in 8 minutes. Find something that can beat that. You know why people kick chrono in t4?

Realistically chrono does only like 10k DPS and all the boons you give gets stolen. Then there’s that thing called armor scaling where power DPS drops by about 30% ?tested by a dnt friend). So you in total you do about 6-7k DPS and all your boons are stolen. It’s basically asking 4 people to carry you for a free ride.

why am i supposed to believe any of this, or care? Give an adequate explanation as to why your 4 necro team can clear MT in 8 minutes (are you bouncing epidemics off horrik or something? If so, only two of you needs to be a necro) as opposed to a team of 2 necros and support. No matter how much you doubt chrono, there is absolutely no good reason to stack more than 2 necromancers on any team, ever. If you have one necromancer for epidemic, and really want to only do condition, engineer can out-damage necromancer with conditions by about 7k per second (https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/4v76gq/qt_updated_guides_and_dps_benchmarks_for_all/). If you care about survivability, druid is on top. I’m sure if you used 2 necromancers, 2 engineers and a tempest you could clear mai tran in 2 minutes with your mad skillz.

Also, toughness stops scaling after the level 50 fractal. Even if 30% drop was accurate, necro can only put out 25k in conditions per second, which probably drops to 20k per second w/out those nooby chronomancers and PS warriors, making it still inferior to any decent zerker team set up with support.

(edited by Alex Shatter.7956)

Necro not optimal for fractals

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Posted by: Vinceman.4572

Vinceman.4572

making it still inferior to any decent zerker team set up with support.

I highly doubt that a “decent” zerker team is as fast as his 4 necro drood comp. I am running fractals daily and the thing is you don’t get those decent players you mention. Either the guys are going downstate every 10 seconds and you have a dps decrease or the dps is horrible from the start without downstates. I haven’t seen any good zerker dps group at MT since aeons.
Even tempests are swapping to water if you have a druid who is constantly healing or 2 necros because it is impossible for them to keep their dps rotation properly.

Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.

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Posted by: Sarahfull.4930

Sarahfull.4930

You don’t see any zerkers anymore cause everyone is told go condi. You could almost say, just the last remaining old generation of players are the ones left playing zerk..
Almost anyway, I know it’s not 100% true

Necro not optimal for fractals

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Posted by: Vinceman.4572

Vinceman.4572

You don’t see any zerkers anymore cause everyone is told go condi. You could almost say, just the last remaining old generation of players are the ones left playing zerk..
Almost anyway, I know it’s not 100% true

Of course I don’t see them because it is working way better with condi groups than zerker. Just try it out. The few zerker groups I ran with were with filled with exp and good players the dmg is still way worse than Alex wants to tell us!

If there are people from the SC guilds telling me zerker is better I would trust them but until there is no proof…no thank you.

Edit: To be clear, I also doubt that a 4 man necro party including a druid is optimal, I’m talking about condi in general vs. full zerker. And we are talking about pugging, not static and optimized groups with buffood and proper communication!

Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.

(edited by Vinceman.4572)

Necro not optimal for fractals

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Posted by: Sarahfull.4930

Sarahfull.4930

Meh, I’m still a zerk and don’t mind. Although I don’t think it’s " way " worst, worst yes although not wwaayy.
Also didn’t know MT was mai’s nick name xD

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Posted by: Jerus.4350

Jerus.4350

You don’t see any zerkers anymore cause everyone is told go condi. You could almost say, just the last remaining old generation of players are the ones left playing zerk..
Almost anyway, I know it’s not 100% true

Of course I don’t see them because it is working way better with condi groups than zerker. Just try it out. The few zerker groups I ran with were with filled with exp and good players the dmg is still way worse than Alex wants to tell us!

If there are people from the SC guilds telling me zerker is better I would trust them but until there is no proof…no thank you.

Edit: To be clear, I also doubt that a 4 man necro party including a druid is optimal, I’m talking about condi in general vs. full zerker. And we are talking about pugging, not static and optimized groups with buffood and proper communication!

The last record run I saw posted, 2 Ele in power damage setups (post nerf too!). If anyone can swap 2 necros in and beat it by a good amount I’d take the ‘condi only’ thing more seriously but until then I believe this is sufficient proof that power still does fine.

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Posted by: Vinceman.4572

Vinceman.4572

This run proves nothing for me tbh. And especially not from this player. ^^

And I repeat myself: I haven’t said power isn’t fine anymore but we are talking about pugs. Most temp cannot hold their dps rotation without going down.

Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.

(edited by Vinceman.4572)

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Posted by: Sarahfull.4930

Sarahfull.4930

This run proves nothing for me tbh. And especially not from this player. ^^

And I repeat myself: I haven’t said power isn’t fine anymore but we are talking about pugs. Most temp cannot hold their dps rotation without going down.

I agree, condi is better =/ ugh, I do and don’t wanta say it although I think power is harder to play at higher lvls cause your more involved in the fight.

I agree most, MOST PuGs can’t be bothered putting in thr effort needed to fight in power and not get hit/go down

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Posted by: TexZero.7910

TexZero.7910

I agree most, MOST PuGs can’t be bothered putting in thr effort needed to fight in power and not get hit/go down

I don’t think this is entirely true.

I honestly think it more comes down to damage out per effort in.
If there was a power build as effortless as condi reaper that performed equally, PuGs would run that. Unfortunately given the toughness scaling, and recent nerfs to ele’s….you’ll just see whatever is easiest. It’s part of the reason why you hardly see engineers too much input for such little reward (unless under controlled situations).

Necro not optimal for fractals

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Posted by: Bohantopa.5729

Bohantopa.5729

Sigh, ok this time I’ll be as clear as possible.

I cant’ explain it better but if you ain’t getting this you are missing the reason that makes necro viable in raid and fotm right now

I do understand the reason why necros are raid viable. Where did I say they are not?

Now about your 3 cases: It looks like you are giving numbers for global dps (or at least multiple targets) or you are distributing the epidemic dps gain on a single target to all reapers. (I can not explain the dps gain of Necro A otherwise).
Most situations only the dps on a single target is important so it should look like:

Necro A = 21k

Necro B = 21k

Source:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/4v76gq/qt_updated_guides_and_dps_benchmarks_for_all/

Epidemic Bounce (in raid) effect 14k

Average necro dps gain dut to Epidemic Bounce 14k/2=7k

Source

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/4vivo3/calculating_the_value_of_epidemic/

You actually bolded the wrong part. What you (and what is done in that reddit thread) are doing is taking the total Epidemic Bounce damage and distributing it over all Necros.
But you did it wrongly (the thread does it right).

The average dps gain you give is only for the situation of 2 necros.

“Accounting for alacrity, two necromancers bouncing on cooldown will achieve a net single-target DPS gain of 14.8k DPS, or 7.4k per Reaper.”

The Situation with 3 reapers is even mentioned in the thread, but only with damage values without epidemic cd reduction.

“that means a single bounce between two Reapers adds 11k DPS, or 5.5k per Reaper. If you have three Reapers, you’ll get 22k DPS added, or 7.34k per Reaper, and so on.”

If we take the new value (1 epidemic which bounces back deals 14.8k dps) and now calculate the average dps with 3 reapers it will be:
avgDps = normalDps + epiDps*2/3
(2 because 2 epis bounce back and /3 because there are 3 reapers in the hypothetical situation)
or with the numbers you find important:
21k + 14.8k*2/3 = 30.86k

So your case 3 should be:
necro A: 30.86k
necro B: 30.86k
necro C: 30.86k

If we add a case 4 with 4 reapers it would be:
21k + 14.8k*3/4 = 32.1k
Or a general case with n reapers (n > 0)
avgDps(n) = 21k + 14.8k*(n-1)/n

Now I could calculate a coefficent for this situation same as you, but it still will not make epidemic a multiplicative effekt. A multiplicative effekt is something that no matter how high (or low) your damage is, if you calculate with the effect you just need to multiply. In example going from 0 to 10 stacks of vulnerability, which increases damage by 10% so from 10 to 11=(10*1.1), from 50 to 55=(50*1.1), from 21k to 23.1k=(21k * 1.1).
Epidemic just adds a certain dps value. This can be averaged over all reapers to make a “fair” comparison, by dividing the total epidemic dps hitting the boss by the number of reapers. In a raid sitution with two reapers having a lot of buffs and being able to epi bounce on cd this will increase the average reaper dps by about 30%. If the situation is different it will be a different relativ gain.

(edited by Bohantopa.5729)

Necro not optimal for fractals

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Posted by: aelfwe.4239

aelfwe.4239

<cut>

Your mistake is that you divide epidemic bounce effect for the numbers of necroes you have in team.

You are mixing up the epidemic bounce dmg (condie on target with a cap of 25 stack/kind) with the factors that applies it (numbers of epidemic skill you can cast over a fixed amount of time, the cooldown, aka the number of necro you have in team) so you end up /n rather than 2 while the n part if just additive.

Anyway other than that i don’t get if you are arguing me about the multiplicative part or about something else, but honestly it look like a lost of time for me.

There’s nothing new under the sun here

Plenty of people already asked themselves, fixed an amount of condie over a target, how much dmg/seconds bring to a single necro the epidemic bounce.

They already gave themself a reply and i give you a link with the base math you can use to determine by yourself the same value.

Compared to them i’ve only done a single step on, i’ve traslate on a % the dps increase of the necro due to epidemic bounce.

% aka factor of x 1,33 (in raid) —> then i called multiplicative.

The idea behind that was to make it easyer to undestand why bringing more than 2 necroes is clueless (the dmg improvement do not change) compared to taking a condie ps war.

In before if you really think you are on the right side, stack as much necroes than possible and go, you won’t have best setup but you will land on feet :-)

If there are people from the SC guilds telling me zerker is better I would trust them but until there is no proof…no thank you.

Well zerker isn’t better, but the funny party is that yesterday people opened a thread about the same stuff (4 necro+1 druid high fotm) on reddit and here we go:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/4z5iei/high_tier_fractals_situation_are_crazy/

the second post (ordering best) has your sc statement, you have to be xxx to not take a condie ps and a chrono in team on high level fotm ;-)

Not that any player with a bit of clue about game mechanics would do differently ofc xD

Aelfwe Dark Asura Mesmer\Thief,
FREE PYRO

(edited by aelfwe.4239)

Necro not optimal for fractals

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Posted by: Vinceman.4572

Vinceman.4572

the second post (ordering best) has your sc statement, you have to be xxx to not take a condie ps and a chrono in team on high level fotm ;-)

That’s what I’m saying, np. We already had a statement in this thread too:

2 Necro is meta, even for record times you’ll want 2 necros in most fractals.
What isn’t meta is more than 2 necros because it’s a complete waste.
3rd can be either ele or druid,
4th and 5th class are mesmer and warr.
Also you can epi bounce in almost every fractal.

Problem is most people read the opening post and then put an answer to the thread. It’s a shame.

And I agree with perry, pugs are some kind of stupid. I saw it in raids, pugged several crazy groups running the 7-2-1 and struggled hard although they were some kind of experienced. They insisted so hard on 7-2-1 instead of the easier 4-4-2 or didn’t know about it, I was speechless. It’s more than understandable that players without infos from outside the game and newer players have problems with some content, it’s really no wonder…

Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.

(edited by Vinceman.4572)

Necro not optimal for fractals

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Posted by: aelfwe.4239

aelfwe.4239

the second post (ordering best) has your sc statement, you have to be xxx to not take a condie ps and a chrono in team on high level fotm ;-)

That’s what I’m saying, np. We already had a statement in this thread too:

2 Necro is meta, even for record times you’ll want 2 necros in most fractals.
What isn’t meta is more than 2 necros because it’s a complete waste.
3rd can be either ele or druid,
4th and 5th class are mesmer and warr.
Also you can epi bounce in almost every fractal.

Problem is most people read the opening post and then put an answer to the thread. It’s a shame.

And I agree with perry, pugs are some kind of stupid. I saw it in raids, pugged several crazy groups running the 7-2-1 and struggled hard although they were some kind of experienced. They insisted so hard on 7-2-1 instead of the easier 4-4-2 or didn’t know about it, I was speechless. It’s more than understandable that players without infos from outside the game and newer players have problems with some content, it’s really no wonder…

yep, when pugs state something better there’s no way to make them change idea.

you can explain willing to help and yadayada and it doesnt mind you have 230li or 6k hours played and you low man etc.

they won’t change idea and the only result you can achieve is being blamed.

that’s why i rarely pug and if i do i usually start my party taking the composition i want.

imao it’s the best way

Aelfwe Dark Asura Mesmer\Thief,
FREE PYRO

Necro not optimal for fractals

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Posted by: Bohantopa.5729

Bohantopa.5729

<cut>

Your mistake is that you divide epidemic bounce effect for the numbers of necroes you have in team.

That is what you did, that is what is done in the reddit thread (quoting again):

“Accounting for alacrity, two necromancers bouncing on cooldown will achieve a net single-target DPS gain of 14.8k DPS, or 7.4k per Reaper.”

14.8k (single target damage of a single epidemic bounce) / 2 (number of necromancers in group) = 7.4 (average epi dps per reaper with 2 reapers)

You are mixing up the epidemic bounce dmg (condie on target with a cap of 25 stack/kind) with the factors that applies it (numbers of epidemic skill you can cast over a fixed amount of time, the cooldown, aka the number of necro you have in team) so you end up /n rather than 2 while the n part if just additive.

n=2 in a situation with only 2 reapers, to calculate an average over all reapers it needs to change if the number of reapers change.

Anyway other than that i don’t get if you are arguing me about the multiplicative part or about something else, but honestly it look like a lost of time for me.

Multiplicative has a meaning, in this game it has a strong meaning because stacking multipliers greatly increases the damage. Saying something is multiplicative when it is not actually weakens any argument even if the result would be the same, because now the argument can be attacked.

They already gave themself a reply and i give you a link with the base math you can use to determine by yourself the same value.

Actually your link ( https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/4vivo3/calculating_the_value_of_epidemic/ ) supports my argument not yours, here the quote again:
“Assuming that you can epi bounce exactly on cooldown (which is a very generous assumption), that means a single bounce between two Reapers adds 11k DPS, or 5.5k per Reaper. If you have three Reapers, you’ll get 22k DPS added, or 7.34k per Reaper, and so on.”

And again the note, that this line if from before the epidemic cd reduction was factored in. That would change the number into the following:

“Assuming that you can epi bounce exactly on cooldown (which is a very generous assumption), that means a single bounce between two Reapers adds 14.8k DPS, or 7.4k per Reaper. If you have three Reapers, you’ll get 29.6k DPS added, or 9.86k per Reaper, and so on.”

(edited by Bohantopa.5729)

Necro not optimal for fractals

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Posted by: Bohantopa.5729

Bohantopa.5729

Compared to them i’ve only done a single step on, i’ve traslate on a % the dps increase of the necro due to epidemic bounce.

% aka factor of x 1,33 (in raid) —> then i called multiplicative.

The idea behind that was to make it easyer to undestand why bringing more than 2 necroes is clueless (the dmg improvement do not change) compared to taking a condie ps war.

And that is where you do a mistake (not saying the result would not stay the same, just that the argument is flawed). Adding a 3rd necro adds a full epidemic (because his can also send back 25stack/kind from the add to the boss at the same time as the 2nd necros did) so it adds a total of 14.8k epi dps (not 7.4k as this is only half, see above). As most people are only interested in the average dps, and the 3rd (and 2nd) necro can only use epi on an add because the first one uses his on the boss (giving him no added damage on the boss), it is “fair” to split up that damage so every necro deals the same amount, thus increasing the dps of every necro by 9.86k. as opposed to 7.4k with only 2 necros. Now I wrote “opposed to” because if you want to compare the situation with 2 necros with the situation with 3, you should not add the 9.86 ontop of the 7.4 but instead of it. That is where my 30.86k comes from.

This means that adding a 3rd necro results in a “multiplicator” (shudder) of 30.86/28.4 ~= 1.087 so it’s a 8.7 % dps increase to all necros.

(And I’m still running my ele in fractals, thank you).

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Posted by: aelfwe.4239

aelfwe.4239

Compared to them i’ve only done a single step on, i’ve traslate on a % the dps increase of the necro due to epidemic bounce.

% aka factor of x 1,33 (in raid) —> then i called multiplicative.

The idea behind that was to make it easyer to undestand why bringing more than 2 necroes is clueless (the dmg improvement do not change) compared to taking a condie ps war.

And that is where you do a mistake (not saying the result would not stay the same, just that the argument is flawed). Adding a 3rd necro adds a full epidemic (because his can also send back 25stack/kind from the add to the boss at the same time as the 2nd necros did) so it adds a total of 14.8k epi dps (not 7.4k as this is only half, see above). As most people are only interested in the average dps, and the 3rd (and 2nd) necro can only use epi on an add because the first one uses his on the boss (giving him no added damage on the boss), it is “fair” to split up that damage so every necro deals the same amount, thus increasing the dps of every necro by 9.86k. as opposed to 7.4k with only 2 necros. Now I wrote “opposed to” because if you want to compare the situation with 2 necros with the situation with 3, you should not add the 9.86 ontop of the 7.4 but instead of it. That is where my 30.86k comes from.

This means that adding a 3rd necro results in a “multiplicator” (shudder) of 30.86/28.4 ~= 1.087 so it’s a 8.7 % dps increase to all necros.

(And I’m still running my ele in fractals, thank you).

I don’t want to become a broken disc that repeat the same things over and over…

but you keep to not understanding the interactions between:

-personal dmg over a target (1 necro)
-additional dmg due to epidemic bounce between the target and add (at least 2 necro required)
-the number of source of epidemic you have in a fixed amount of time – the cooldown- (aka the number n of necro you have)
-the condition stack cap within epidemic.

You start from a wrong assumption and you end up on a the same sloppy idea:

This means that adding a 3rd necro results in a “multiplicator” (shudder) of 30.86/28.4 ~= 1.087 so it’s a 8.7 % dps increase to all necros.

(And I’m still running my ele in fractals, thank you).

*the 3rd necroes and the 2nd necroes do NOT share epidemic cooldown that’s why you have not /3. The personal dmg value do not change, you have 1 more epidemic from the add to the boss with the same value of the second necro epidemic.

Anyway since my english isnt good enough to make you understand and my patience isnt great enough to pass 2 days trying to explain the same (easy) thing to you i suggest to read the link about epidemic i linked you twice.

It’s well explained, on a good english, and you can track the result step by step.

Otw keep your idea and go on, i can live with it

Aelfwe Dark Asura Mesmer\Thief,
FREE PYRO

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Posted by: Bohantopa.5729

Bohantopa.5729

*the 3rd necroes and the 2nd necroes do NOT share epidemic cooldown that’s why you have not /3. The personal dmg value do not change, you have 1 more epidemic from the add to the boss with the same value of the second necro epidemic.

I specifically said they used their epidemic at the same time which means they do NOT share CD (how can you misunderstand that?) which is where the *2 comed from. But as there are now 3 Necromancers and I’m calculating an average over all necromancers in the group of course i have to divide by 3.

But lets go by facts:
1. Necromnacers deals 21k dps (your number)
2. Epidemic (bounce back) deals 14.8k dps (your number)
3. Your average dps necro (if at least 2 necros): 28.4k (your number)
4. My average if 3 necros: 30.86k (my number)

Situation 1.1 (2 necros calculating seperatly)
=> Total dps of all necromancers = 21k + 21k + 14.8k = 56.8k

Situation 1.2 (2 necros calculating over your averages)
=> Total dps of all necromancers = 28.4 + 28.4k = 56.8k
Both number are equal so it’s good.

Situation 2.1 (3 necros calculating seperatly)
=> Total dps of all necromancers = 21k + 21k + 14.8k + 21k + 14.8k = 92.6k

Situation 2.2 (3 necros my average)
=> Total dps of all necromancers = 30.86k + 30.86k + 30.86k = 92,58k
(small difference due to rounding down from 9.8666666666… to 9.86)

Sitution 2.3 (3 necros your average)
=> Total dps of all necromancers = 28.4k + 28.4k + 28.4k = 85,2k
(woah, a difference of 7.4k, where did that go?)

That difference comes from the fact that you took the average epidemic dps for 2 reapers (which was calculated for only 2 reapers in the group) and used it as if that is the average epidemic dps all the time, which it is not. I read the whole reddit post multiple times, I quoted you the passages in it that imply that you have to recalculate the average if you change the number of reapers twice. Can’t help you any more.

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Posted by: aelfwe.4239

aelfwe.4239

<cut>

(woah, a difference of 7.4k, where did that go?)

<cut>

Nowhere, it doesnt exist if you ain’t taking a condie ps war to stack burning in place of the 3rd necros. That indeed makes useless your average (situtation 2.2) because it’s wrong in a 2 necroes enviroment.

This is the reason you have to split between the 1st 2 necroes and the 3rd one rather than /3

You are doing a comparison between dmg of different setup, not calculating the absulute dmg.

Aelfwe Dark Asura Mesmer\Thief,
FREE PYRO

(edited by aelfwe.4239)

Necro not optimal for fractals

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Posted by: Oh Snapalope.1378

Oh Snapalope.1378

You never take PS for MT 100 because you get 1 shotted because horrick will get 100% 25 might and fury. He one shots the entire team if you do the face tank method.

Necro not optimal for fractals

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Posted by: Bohantopa.5729

Bohantopa.5729

<cut>

(woah, a difference of 7.4k, where did that go?)

<cut>

Nowhere, it doesnt exist if you ain’t taking a condie ps war to stack burning in place of the 3rd necros. That indeed makes useless your average (situtation 2.2) because it’s wrong in a 2 necroes enviroment.

It exists … it’s right there: 92.6k – 85,2k. Same situation, just different ways to calculate the dps, they should always be the same. My average for 2 necros is the same as yours (just that i wont stick with it in a 3 or more necro environment). If you add a condi war (or engi) to add burning stacks the damage dealt by epidemic will change in every situation (be it 3 necros + 1 condi war, or 2 necros + 1 condi war. This would mean all cases (yours and mine) would need to be recalculated.
I’m just stumped that you basically still say: “adding a 3rd necro will only increase the groups total dps by 28.4k (21k+7.4k) instead of 35.8k (21k+14.8k)”. Why does the 3rd necros epidemic only deal half it’s damage?
By this reddit post again
A single bounce back deals a total of 196k damage to a single target. If one wants to calculate the dps you divide that number by the cd (13.25s under the assumption of trait reduction and 40% alacrity) which results in 14.8k dps.
Now if you are in a situation that you got a group allready giving you the buffs, and you allready have 2 necros and you want another condi class and you have the choice between a condi ps and another necro. The necro would give you a net gain of 35.8k dps (21k as base + 14.8k because he will also bounce back). The condi ps would give you: his own dps + an increase of the 2nd necros epi damage (and maybe more because he gives +condi damage when he gives fury), this could beat the 35.8k and if so it would be “better” to take the condi ps. But if he only beats your 28.4k dps it would be “better” to take the other necro.
Now this situation will only happen in a raid, in 5 man groups you wont have 25might, gotl and alacricity and still have 3 open slots. On the other hand, if we leave the raid setup all numbers (21k, 196k, 13.25s,14.8k) are wrong because those were also calculated with that setup.

If you still say I’m wrong I want you to show me your math. So far you only said I am wrong and thrown a number at me, while I’ve shown you how and why my numbers are calculated in a certain way. From now on I also want your numbers explained and calculated step by step, this includes all and every assumptions you use to calculate.

(edited by Bohantopa.5729)

Necro not optimal for fractals

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Posted by: aelfwe.4239

aelfwe.4239

If you still say I’m wrong I want you to show me your math. So far you only said I am wrong and thrown a number at me, while I’ve shown you how and why my numbers are calculated in a certain way. From now on I also want your numbers explained and calculated step by step, this includes all and every assumptions you use to calculate.

You are wrong and NO, i already told you 20x times you are missing assumption. You’re math would be right if the assumption would be right. They aren’t. Why? I already told you.

You always use assumption like:

Now this situation will only happen in a raid, in 5 man groups you wont have 25might, gotl and alacricity and still have 3 open slots.

wut?

why no gotl? why 3 open place? who told that? yourself

On the other hand, if we leave the raid setup all numbers (21k, 196k, 13.25s,14.8k) are wrong because those were also calculated with that setup.

and if you already stated you have no gotl so no druid why you take 21k? and if you don’t have condie ps why you take 14,8k (epi including 20 burning stack)?

You are mixing up everything, if you want to have a result you have to start from a specific point (example: 1 druid 3 necro) and change 1 necro (1 druid 2 necro 1 ps) and accordling add the epidemic value from the thread.

The only reason you see a 7% difference in the result is that you bring the value of epidemic (14,8k) that include burning from ps and you include it in the setup that include a necro in place of the ps.

If you would do the same taking off the burning part from the epidemic value you will see that difference dropping to the point to be unreliable.

I could even take it time to make a more specific reply but till you aren’t specific about what are you comparing (ps war vs necro) in which composition (druid? no druid?) why should i do that?

Just to see you here claiming it change of another 1% because you have taken some other assumptions?

May you pls list me the exact assumption you are taking? and the exact compositions you want to compare?

Aelfwe Dark Asura Mesmer\Thief,
FREE PYRO

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Posted by: SlyDevil.3952

SlyDevil.3952

You never take PS for MT 100 because you get 1 shotted because horrick will get 100% 25 might and fury. He one shots the entire team if you do the face tank method.

This is why you don’t face tank.

Also here is the link for armour tests that you referenced before, https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Stress-free-guide-to-tier-4-fractals/first#post6129808.

And lastly,

Then there’s that thing called armor scaling where power DPS drops by about 30% ?tested by a dnt friend).

How do I know you?

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Posted by: Bohantopa.5729

Bohantopa.5729

If you still say I’m wrong I want you to show me your math. So far you only said I am wrong and thrown a number at me, while I’ve shown you how and why my numbers are calculated in a certain way. From now on I also want your numbers explained and calculated step by step, this includes all and every assumptions you use to calculate.

You are wrong and NO, i already told you 20x times you are missing assumption. You’re math would be right if the assumption would be right. They aren’t. Why? I already told you.

You always use assumption like:

Now this situation will only happen in a raid, in 5 man groups you wont have 25might, gotl and alacricity and still have 3 open slots.

wut?

why no gotl? why 3 open place? who told that? yourself

This is not an assumption but a fact. In a 5 man group you have 5 possible slots, to get gotl you need a druid, to get alacricity you need a chronomancer, due to boon share with the chronomancer a condi ps or a revenant could be enough to get (and keep up) 25 might, if not you’ll need a ps war. So 3 of 5 slots are taken, leaving 2.

On the other hand, if we leave the raid setup all numbers (21k, 196k, 13.25s,14.8k) are wrong because those were also calculated with that setup.

and if you already stated you have no gotl so no druid why you take 21k? and if you don’t have condie ps why you take 14,8k (epi including 20 burning stack)?

You are mixing up everything, if you want to have a result you have to start from a specific point (example: 1 druid 3 necro) and change 1 necro (1 druid 2 necro 1 ps) and accordling add the epidemic value from the thread.

You brought up the numbers first, not mentioning they were from a raid setup. I looked them up and found your implicit assumption.
If you want to compare your 1d3n and 1d2n1ps you CAN NOT take the number from the reddit thread because those numbers include alacricity, which you do not have in that situation, you dont have 25 might in the first case and prob not in the 2nd case, you prob will not have 20 burning (could be because condi druid + sun spirit, but probably not) and so on.
You could run your own dps test for those situations, take the formula for epidemic and change the appropiate value and recalculate but so far you have been unable to show any math.

The only reason you see a 7% difference in the result is that you bring the value of epidemic (14,8k) that include burning from ps and you include it in the setup that include a necro in place of the ps.

That burning does not need to be from a ps, there could be a condi druid, condi engi, heck a condi guardian. No matter what, you brought up that number first, without stating any group composition or any composition.

If you would do the same taking off the burning part from the epidemic value you will see that difference dropping to the point to be unreliable.

I could even take it time to make a more specific reply but till you aren’t specific about what are you comparing (ps war vs necro) in which composition (druid? no druid?) why should i do that?

Just to see you here claiming it change of another 1% because you have taken some other assumptions?

May you pls list me the exact assumption you are taking? and the exact compositions you want to compare?

Ok lets fix setup comparisons with 3 people groups:
Setup 1: 3 necros
Setup 2: 2 necros 1 condi ps
let necroNoMightDps be the Dps a single necro deals without any might
let necroCondiMightDps be the Dps a single necro deals with the might (and other buffs) given by a condiPs
let necroNoMightEpi be the dps a single necros epidemic deals on a single target without any might
let necroCondiMightEpi be the dps a single necros epidemic deals with condi Ps might (and other buffs).
let condiPsDps be the self buffed dps a condi PS war deals.

none of these values appear anywhere in any of your linked threads, because a lot of buffs are missing in this setup.

Setup 1 dps = 3*necroNoMightDps + 2*necroNoMightEpi
this will result in an average necro dps of: necroNoMightDps + 2/3*necroNoMightEpi

Setup 2 dps = 2*necroCondiMightDps+1*necroCondiMightEpi+condiPsDps
the average necro dps here is: necroCondiMightDps + 1/2*necroCondiMightEpi

The only reason I am posting this is for you to see the facters 2/3 and 1/2 (which are (n-1)/n for n=3 and n=2). The average necro dps could be the same in both scenarios (something you implied by your case 2 and case 3 necro dps of 28k) but that would be highly coincidentally and was not shown to be true anywhere (I’ll show they can be the same for certain situations a little further down).

Now we could run some damage test over and over to calculate those values or we take a look at a different scenario which I like to call the frictionless vacuum scenario: The buffs used to get the dps values in the 2 threads are given by something, for example we are in a raid setup that allready generates all those buffs/debuffs except the group only generates 7 stacks burning, but there are still 3 slots left and the 2 setups are competing for those 3 slots. In this scenarios we can use the numbers you brought up and one additional value that is epiWith7Burning = 156k / 13.25s = 11.8k dps (the 156k btw comes from


(25*(22 + 0.06*2365)*18 + 7*(131.5 + 0.115*2365)*6 + 20*(33.5 + 0.06*2365)*7.5 + 10*(10 + 0.035*2365)*8.5)*(1+0.25) 
which is the formula given in the epi thread just with 7 burning instead of 20.

(value names should be enough without explicit definition)
setup 1 dps = 3*necroDps + 2*epiWith7Burning = 3*21k + 2*11.8k
setup 2 dps = 2*necroDps + 1*epiDps + condiPsDps = 2*21k + 14.8k + 18k

average necro dps in setup 1: 21k + (2/3) x 11.8k = 28.86k
average necro dps in setup 2: 21k + (1/2) x 14.8k = 28.4k
close but not equal (actually tried to get them like that to show the possible coincidence)

Now what about the setups dps:
setup 1: 86,6
setup 2: 74,8

even if setup 1 had 0 burning (resulting in an epi dps of 10.1k and would actually mean the average necro damage in setup 1 is lower than in setup 2) the setup would still deal 83k dps and thereby more than setup 2.

For that situation in setup 2 the rest of the group would probably change the rest, the frictionless vacuum. The condi ps does give some might, which would allow for someone else to swap from a might giver to a higher dps class and this could give setup 2 the edge to pull ahead. But i never ever said that that was impossible.

The only problem i had was that you implied a multiplicative factor where there was none and did not give any reason why in your case 2 and case 3 scenario all necros had the same dps. You tried to later explain that but took an average calculated with 2 necros to be applicable in a 3 necro situation.

edit: stupid bolding *

(edited by Bohantopa.5729)

Necro not optimal for fractals

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Posted by: Sarahfull.4930

Sarahfull.4930

You never take PS for MT 100 because you get 1 shotted because horrick will get 100% 25 might and fury. He one shots the entire team if you do the face tank method.

Don’t forget to moa so he attacks faster as well..
I mean what?

Necro not optimal for fractals

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Posted by: Harper.4173

Harper.4173

My static group does MT 100 4 necros 1 druid healer in 8 minutes. Find something that can beat that. You know why people kick chrono in t4?

Realistically chrono does only like 10k DPS and all the boons you give gets stolen. Then there’s that thing called armor scaling where power DPS drops by about 30% ?tested by a dnt friend). So you in total you do about 6-7k DPS and all your boons are stolen. It’s basically asking 4 people to carry you for a free ride.

why am i supposed to believe any of this, or care? Give an adequate explanation as to why your 4 necro team can clear MT in 8 minutes (are you bouncing epidemics off horrik or something? If so, only two of you needs to be a necro) as opposed to a team of 2 necros and support. No matter how much you doubt chrono, there is absolutely no good reason to stack more than 2 necromancers on any team, ever. If you have one necromancer for epidemic, and really want to only do condition, engineer can out-damage necromancer with conditions by about 7k per second (https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/4v76gq/qt_updated_guides_and_dps_benchmarks_for_all/). If you care about survivability, druid is on top. I’m sure if you used 2 necromancers, 2 engineers and a tempest you could clear mai tran in 2 minutes with your mad skillz.

Also, toughness stops scaling after the level 50 fractal. Even if 30% drop was accurate, necro can only put out 25k in conditions per second, which probably drops to 20k per second w/out those nooby chronomancers and PS warriors, making it still inferior to any decent zerker team set up with support.

You have no idea how wrong you are.
Yes engi can outdamage necro – but their rotation is more complex than the condi necro’s.

The point is this – Necros make T4s easy – you will almost never wipe and can easily even afk/tab out/watch another screen WHILE getting T4 done.
That makes it very good in most people’s book.

I get that it’s not optimal – but do you really honestly believe that most people that have done fractals since day 1 of FOTM release actually want to give it their absolute 100% attention and fully commit to it? No.
You want to clear the run with minimal interaction with it or others. Yes you could bother for a “speed-clear like team” but why would you? Why not stack 5 necros and watch netflix while occasionally checking the screen and clearing through in a breeze?

The mistake you make is assuming that people actually care about getting it done fast.
Sure – getting it done fast is great but getting it done a little slower but with minimal interaction is even better.

This is the same thing as why people used to stack in safespots for mossman back when the FOTM dailies were 56, 67 and 77. Sure it took longer but how much time did you spend doing it if you were tabbed out or watching something else?

The answer is : you spent no time doing it because you were doing something else and the T4 just completed at the same time.

If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”

(edited by Harper.4173)

Necro not optimal for fractals

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Posted by: Daddicus.6128

Daddicus.6128

Folks, you’re getting far too bogged down in the details.

When faced with a complicated, but logical, question, reduce it to the absurd.

In this case, instead of poring over DPS and condi numbers ad nauseum, just ask the question: which character will do the best job against the target all by himself?

To get the answer, just look up “solo” with your favorite T4 and count them.

Now, a reduction ad absurdum argument like that is only valid if the encounter scales properly. To answer that question, figure out if 5 of the zerker builds would out-perform 5 of the condi builds.

If both questions have the same end result, you have your answer. No need for any math.

Necro not optimal for fractals

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Posted by: Sarahfull.4930

Sarahfull.4930

I though it’s a given condi will out do the zerks on higher fractal levels

Necro not optimal for fractals

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Posted by: SlyDevil.3952

SlyDevil.3952

I though it’s a given condi will out do the zerks on higher fractal levels

It would, solo, until you add in buffs that are shared in a group, and if you consider how long you can deal damage for. A group can phase bloomhunger in 4 seconds if you break his ground pound bar and buff, so power is basically always better at bloom, mossman likewise. Trash mobs as well favour power because you can chain cc and melt them. Old tom? Power because you can burn him so quickly, likewise the last 4 golems, the ettin might favour condi. Elemental source probably favours power because you can light fires/group mobs and burn in short intervals.

But then again, all the conditions to make power better than condi don’t exist in pug groups, so go condi anyways.

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Posted by: Iris Ng.9845

Iris Ng.9845

Most of the effectiveness of power builds comes from Might and Fury – which some people may struggle to keep up or re-apply on T4. I still like the current status quo which favors condi class even though I do fractal dailies with my zerker tempest. There are challenges to people who prefer the traditional zerk-way and ease of play to people who follow the conventional condi-way

“Raids are like fortune cookies. You eat the cookie and then read the paper scraps.”

- doranduck, 2016 on Lore in Raids

Necro not optimal for fractals

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Posted by: Vinceman.4572

Vinceman.4572

Pugged T4 today – 5 necros randomly – fastest, easiest and funniest run ever. Think it was fractal dependent because trash mobs at ascalon died due to epi storm – it was a massacre. Almost the same at solid ocean and aetherblades. Doubt that even good power pugs can accomplish that, mesmer pulls have way to much cd to pull all enemies together for a decent cleave. ^^

Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.

Necro not optimal for fractals

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Posted by: Iris Ng.9845

Iris Ng.9845

4 tempests/ or trap DHs + 1 chrono with g.well will out cleave your 5 necro setup. Especially in those three specific fractals.

“Raids are like fortune cookies. You eat the cookie and then read the paper scraps.”

- doranduck, 2016 on Lore in Raids

Necro not optimal for fractals

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Posted by: Vinceman.4572

Vinceman.4572

4 tempests/ or trap DHs + 1 chrono with g.well will out cleave your 5 necro setup. Especially in those three specific fractals.

I really would like to see that in a pug because it’s debatable for me to get those perfect pulls you need for being fast.

Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.

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Posted by: Iris Ng.9845

Iris Ng.9845

I wish I took the screen shot when I pug T4 fractals with my DH friend

And I don’t quite understand your implication of “perfect pulls”. The current mesmer’s pull is stupidly easy and precise. Before HoT, you may have to draw a geometry in your head to pull everything together. Not to mention whatever you miss, the DH can just pull them with their F1. What’s so hard about it?

“Raids are like fortune cookies. You eat the cookie and then read the paper scraps.”

- doranduck, 2016 on Lore in Raids

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Posted by: Vinceman.4572

Vinceman.4572

I wish I took the screen shot when I pug T4 fractals with my DH friend

And I don’t quite understand your implication of “perfect pulls”. The current mesmer’s pull is stupidly easy and precise. Before HoT, you may have to draw a geometry in your head to pull everything together. Not to mention whatever you miss, the DH can just pull them with their F1. What’s so hard about it?

Because in the ascalon fractal you can just walk onto the last open field and spread your condis, the epis will do the job so fast that you don’t have to stand behind the statue or a tree which really all pugs are doing instead. While I agree that you will be fast with a friend and/or a coordinated group this whole thing won’t happen in pugs. There is still somebody who is slacking or doesn’t bring the dmg to burst all mobs in this whole area down as fast as I’ve seen it with this necro comp. Also you don’t reach every mob in this field with one or two pulls (gs5 included) so that you are slowed down by cooldowns.
The practical experience mentioned above is way easier and therefore much faster in the average due to not relying on good/perfect pulls/tasks.

Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.

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Posted by: zealex.9410

zealex.9410

multiple necros with a druid tent to simplefy every and all encounters and the multiple epidemics can destroy the trash packs quickly so you can move faster to the boss also many of the bosses have 1 or more add with them perfect for the epidemic if despite that bother you that much that the reaper fest is happening dont worry they will get the ely treatment soon™

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Posted by: Rednik.3809

Rednik.3809

multiple necros with a druid tent to simplefy every and all encounters and the multiple epidemics can destroy the trash packs quickly so you can move faster to the boss also many of the bosses have 1 or more add with them perfect for the epidemic if despite that bother you that much that the reaper fest is happening dont worry they will get the ely treatment soon™

Unlikely. Anet barely cares about pve balance outside of raids and in raids reaper is not even close to top.

Kiijna, Xast, Satis Ironwail, Sekhaina, Shira Forgesparkle, Sfeno, Nasibi, Tegeira, Rhonwe…
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Necro not optimal for fractals

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Posted by: Oh Snapalope.1378

Oh Snapalope.1378

4 tempests/ or trap DHs + 1 chrono with g.well will out cleave your 5 necro setup. Especially in those three specific fractals.

100% wrong. You lose 30% damage from all power damage because of armor scaling. The fact that all your boons are stolen will destroy your group as well. Ele damage is really bad because of the 30% armor scaling and the fact that it’s harder to play at T4 due to you can die just by getting breathed on.

Can you beat this clear speed at 93? Just watch the tunnel sequence an the mob at the end of the tunnel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chVPWPiL8TA

(edited by Oh Snapalope.1378)

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Posted by: Iris Ng.9845

Iris Ng.9845

Ehm, excuse me but I play tempest at t4 daily and it’s no where near the point of “dying from being breathed on”. I agree that playing condi necro is easy in fractals and for the records I was one of the few first people to promote playing necro in t4 if players can’t handle the mechanics to save their own hide. That doesn’t mean playing anything else than necro is impossible to be as good.

In this one particular thing in discussion: add cleaving, protection means nothing, boon stealing means nothing, armor defense means nothing. The adds have very little health pool that a clever pull, disabling and powerful burst are all needed to cleave them down.

You guys start making me doubt that either all the good players I know either quit the game or jump to this necro train for everyone starts worshipping it as a be-all-end-all solution.

Yes I’ve done all of this before it’s even meta and I still stand behind my words and say a good tempest/DH burst + chrono pull can out cleave the 5 necro epidemic.

Now if Anet decides to nerf minions or make environmental damage kill them quicker or simply make add leave no corpse, the necro meta will cease to exist. But that’s another thing to debate.

“Raids are like fortune cookies. You eat the cookie and then read the paper scraps.”

- doranduck, 2016 on Lore in Raids

Necro not optimal for fractals

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Posted by: zealex.9410

zealex.9410

multiple necros with a druid tent to simplefy every and all encounters and the multiple epidemics can destroy the trash packs quickly so you can move faster to the boss also many of the bosses have 1 or more add with them perfect for the epidemic if despite that bother you that much that the reaper fest is happening dont worry they will get the ely treatment soon™

Unlikely. Anet barely cares about pve balance outside of raids and in raids reaper is not even close to top.

was confirmed that they are looking into toning down the skill dont give all that kitten or the devs :/

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Posted by: Senario.2038

Senario.2038

They could easily fix this if they took out boon thieves and readjusted toughness scaling to match what is in raids. The raid bosses are decently well balanced in terms of the amount of damage power and condi do. However Condi is a lot better in fractals due to the higher toughness.

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Posted by: Oh Snapalope.1378

Oh Snapalope.1378

Ehm, excuse me but I play tempest at t4 daily and it’s no where near the point of “dying from being breathed on”. I agree that playing condi necro is easy in fractals and for the records I was one of the few first people to promote playing necro in t4 if players can’t handle the mechanics to save their own hide. That doesn’t mean playing anything else than necro is impossible to be as good.

In this one particular thing in discussion: add cleaving, protection means nothing, boon stealing means nothing, armor defense means nothing. The adds have very little health pool that a clever pull, disabling and powerful burst are all needed to cleave them down.

You guys start making me doubt that either all the good players I know either quit the game or jump to this necro train for everyone starts worshipping it as a be-all-end-all solution.

Yes I’ve done all of this before it’s even meta and I still stand behind my words and say a good tempest/DH burst + chrono pull can out cleave the 5 necro epidemic.

Now if Anet decides to nerf minions or make environmental damage kill them quicker or simply make add leave no corpse, the necro meta will cease to exist. But that’s another thing to debate.

Ok go to 93 and get your team to clear the mob at the end of the tunnel. If you can beat my video’s speed to melt that mob. I don’t really understand how come you don’t understand that power damage loses huge chunk in T4.

(edited by Oh Snapalope.1378)

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Posted by: Jerus.4350

Jerus.4350

Ehm, excuse me but I play tempest at t4 daily and it’s no where near the point of “dying from being breathed on”. I agree that playing condi necro is easy in fractals and for the records I was one of the few first people to promote playing necro in t4 if players can’t handle the mechanics to save their own hide. That doesn’t mean playing anything else than necro is impossible to be as good.

In this one particular thing in discussion: add cleaving, protection means nothing, boon stealing means nothing, armor defense means nothing. The adds have very little health pool that a clever pull, disabling and powerful burst are all needed to cleave them down.

You guys start making me doubt that either all the good players I know either quit the game or jump to this necro train for everyone starts worshipping it as a be-all-end-all solution.

Yes I’ve done all of this before it’s even meta and I still stand behind my words and say a good tempest/DH burst + chrono pull can out cleave the 5 necro epidemic.

Now if Anet decides to nerf minions or make environmental damage kill them quicker or simply make add leave no corpse, the necro meta will cease to exist. But that’s another thing to debate.

Ok go to 93 and get your team to clear the mob at the end of the tunnel. If you can beat my video’s speed to melt that mob. I don’t really understand how come you don’t understand that power damage loses huge chunk in T4.

It loses a huge chunk, but it’s initial burst is still so high that it’s great on trash. Your video is nothing impressive, a normal run regardless of necro or not. Reading some of these posts it sounds like people forget that you need to take some time to load condi’s before the epidemic, in that same time power can burst them dead even with a loss of a large chunk of damage.

Necro is ‘meta’ because it’s facerolling easy. not because it’s better damage.

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Posted by: Sarahfull.4930

Sarahfull.4930

You guys start making me doubt that either all the good players I know either quit the game.

I think this happened. Most players were lost when little to no updates where happening and fractals dealt less damage.

Necro not optimal for fractals

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: VodCom.6924

VodCom.6924

You’re right. It’s not optimal; it’s easy and is a nice safeguard and carry class if you end up on a team with really bad players. That’s why it’s so popular.

[ /sterile_debate]

Known as Reegar Else, Linda Else, Xiana Else and Thorgall Breakstone

(edited by VodCom.6924)