One Token to rule them all...

One Token to rule them all...

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Posted by: Kherberos.2169

Kherberos.2169

One token to rule them all.
Any character to find them.
One vendor to bring them all,
And in the forge bind them.

The main problem we see with a universal token system, is that players will find the easiest dungeons they can do within the DR system’s influence range, and just do them over and over.
It would be like if people could use all their CoF tokens from the speed/exploit clears, and buy up Arah Dragon armor. Were that the case, the armor itself would have no real value behind it. When you look at a player and you see a full suit of dragon armor, you know that they did a certain thing to get that armor. With a universal token system, you lose that sense of knowledge of what another player has gone through to get what they have.

A pretty “simple” solution to this is to require mixes of items; plainly have people always generate ‘generic’ tokens during any explore run and then hand out a unique item ( i.e. only one allowed in your inventory ) for dungeon completion that allows the purchase of a single item; in this way you encourage people to play what they want and yet still have to visit the dungeon they want the item from at least once per item they want.

Alternatively keep the non-generic tokens but allow trading of them to other types ( with some sort of convenience tax ) so that you can fill out those missing COF tokens with the runs of AC you did. If you want to be fancy, run statistics of how often each dungeon is run and make the ‘exchange rate’ of tokens slide and adjust based upon that; i.e. COF is run 100 times for every 3 times AC is run — if you want to buy AC tokens with your COF ones, each should cost about 33 ( or perhaps half if you want to be nice — ~15 ). That way you help nullify the ‘efficiency’ of finding the best path while still allowing people choice ( with costs — as choices should have )

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Posted by: FeveredDreamer.2693

FeveredDreamer.2693

Normally I don’t post on subjects such as these. . . especially since I think a universal token system generally leads to overfarming of a certain dungeon, however, there is something not being said here that I feel is rather relevant.

I could care less about the token system as it is right now, except for one minor issue. . . They take up bag space. Can a tab in the collectibles be made for this? Or a Soulbound Collectibles window be created?

I have 4 different token types taking up space in my bags that I’d like to get out but would really not have to go to my bank to find out how many I have when deciding which dungeon my friends and I are going to run for that evening.

I likewise would be pretty strongly against universal tokens, I think that people should have to do the appropriate dungeon to get that reward. That being said I couldn’t agree more regarding the issue of token/inventory space. Is there any reason for this aside from urging players to spend gems on bank upgrades. There are plenty of reasons to pick up bank upgrades without having players have stacks of tokens for each dungeon + WvW. It’d be really nice to see this changed, please consider making tokens and honor badges either collectibles or just currency as they should be.

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Posted by: Yukishiro.8792

Yukishiro.8792

Awful post by the dev misses the point completely: running the same dungeon over and over is no fun, especially when you can’t do it with your friends because they get nothing from running that dungeon because they want to run a different dungeon instead.

It is just bad design to make each person choose one single dungeon to run 40+ times to get their chosen gear set. Why on earth would anyone think that’s a good model? It is especially mindboggling from a company like arenanet that claimed to be more respectful of its players than that.

The GW2 dungeon gearing model is exactly the sort of thing arenanet would mock endlessly if any of their competitors did it. It is just TERRIBLY thought out.

The obvious solution is to use generic tokens + completion tokens. Each piece of armor takes X generic tokens plus 1-2 completion tokens, which are unique to each dungeon. To get a full set of dungeon armor you would still have to do the same dungeon ~10 times to completion but for your other 30 runs you could do other dungeons instead, allowing you to help out friends.

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Posted by: E Kay.9236

E Kay.9236

I find it a bit sad since before launch we were told (can’t find a ref to it though) that we would just had to run each EM path once to get our full set. No grind but a very tough challenge. Right now, it is not challenging at all in most places and we have to do it again and again. This whole discussion is a symptom of failed promises. Sorry, I just had to vent this.

Edit: And yes, I do enjoy running those dungeons… It is the reward system I do not like.

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Posted by: Overunity.4273

Overunity.4273

Why not let the players decide ?
Make life easy for yourself ?
So what if players find the easiest or more likely most entertaining dungeons to collect gear with universal tokens .

I suggest stop trying to play God and let people who enjoy farming and crafting ,do it .
Let people that want a particular look of armour collect it doing whichever content they enjoy .
Why is there a need to control the playerbase ?
What is the big deal if a percentage chose the quickest dungeon to farm tokens ?

I personally think most of it looks crap apart from COF look .
All the stats are the same so honestly whats the big deal ?

In other mmo’s you have to get the best stats to attempt the next harder dungeon ,but here if you have your heart set on arah look gear you can do that once you are lvl 80 with some cheap lvl78 exotics from tp .

What percentage of the playerbase are going to farm wipefests for same stat gear ?
Please you have a very beautiful and technically perfect game but at 80 pretty pixels on gear are not going to keep the majority interested .

We just want to have fun

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Posted by: Parisalchuk.9230

Parisalchuk.9230

Why not let the players decide ?
Make life easy for yourself ?
So what if players find the easiest or more likely most entertaining dungeons to collect gear with universal tokens .

I suggest stop trying to play God and let people who enjoy farming and crafting ,do it .
Let people that want a particular look of armour collect it doing whichever content they enjoy .
Why is there a need to control the playerbase ?
What is the big deal if a percentage chose the quickest dungeon to farm tokens ?

I personally think most of it looks crap apart from COF look .
All the stats are the same so honestly whats the big deal ?

In other mmo’s you have to get the best stats to attempt the next harder dungeon ,but here if you have your heart set on arah look gear you can do that once you are lvl 80 with some cheap lvl78 exotics from tp .

What percentage of the playerbase are going to farm wipefests for same stat gear ?
Please you have a very beautiful and technically perfect game but at 80 pretty pixels on gear are not going to keep the majority interested .

Pretty pixel kept GW1 alive for 7 years…. I think they know what they are doing.

If we are gonna let the players run the game Id like 10 of each legendary please. Why not let me turn on God Mode so I dont die and a wall hack would be cool so I can just go where ever I want.

O O O O I I I O – Spoons and Sporks [Soup] (Retired)
http://www.twitch.tv/parisalchuk

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Posted by: Gray.9650

Gray.9650

Pretty pixel kept GW1 alive for 7 years…. I think they know what they are doing.

comparing gw1 to comparing gw2 is recipe for fail, it had a different and more open progression.

so, a system with the complete opposite to the one in gw2 which kept a game alive for several years – isn’t that the exact opposite of your argument?

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Posted by: Reihert.1509

Reihert.1509

One token to rule them all.
Any character to find them.
One vendor to bring them all,
And in the forge bind them.

The main problem we see with a universal token system, is that players will find the easiest dungeons they can do within the DR system’s influence range, and just do them over and over.
It would be like if people could use all their CoF tokens from the speed/exploit clears, and buy up Arah Dragon armor. Were that the case, the armor itself would have no real value behind it. When you look at a player and you see a full suit of dragon armor, you know that they did a certain thing to get that armor. With a universal token system, you lose that sense of knowledge of what another player has gone through to get what they have.

Just want to add that Arah armor looks horrible on my charr.

Thank you.

Please add more “awsome” and “zomg” skins to your hardest instances.

I suggest something with lasers and kittens…. well, just lasers because I’m a kitten.

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Posted by: Targren.6073

Targren.6073

The main problem we see with a universal token system, is that players will find the easiest dungeons they can do within the DR system’s influence range, and just do them over and over.

Instead, they just run the easiest path of the dungeon they want the armor for, over and over, and all that other content goes unseen, and the armor has no value anyway.

Why not adjust the rewards based on the difficulty? Whatever one’s opinion of the DR system, you can still use it if the base reward for Arah is 100 tokens and the base for CM is 20 (numbers fabricated for example purposes).

On a personal note, I know, for example, that under the current system, I have no reason to ever do SE, since the armor is, to my aesthetic taste, hideous. (No, it’s not worth running dungeon just to make an “Are you my Mummy?” joke)

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Posted by: MastaNeenja.1537

MastaNeenja.1537

First they wanted easier dungeons now they want universal dungeon tokens, just give everyone max equips when they roll already so we can all be bored with the game within a weeks worth of play time.

No thank you….

There has to be different dungeon tokens because there’s different dungeons different dungeons equals different armor and different levels of difficulty there’s a reason for stuff like this. You work hard to get the items you want, you play longer because of it. The longer you play the more likely you are to spend money on micro transactions.

Oh and once you finally earn your awesome dungeon gear you get to show off to all the other players. Which in turn makes them want to play more to earn their own equips.

Things are fine the way they are, they are the professionals developing the game let them do their job and fix bugs and balance the game instead of expecting them to pander to people who are used to easy mode.

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Posted by: Snorehax.1904

Snorehax.1904

The one token system would probably be counter intuitive to the exact reasons the OP is suggesting.

To successfully implement that style of system you would have to tinker with the dungeons to even coax people into them (WoW uses mounts/achievements/titles – particularly for the number of different ways, speeds, and styles to kill bosses). You would have to redevelop the dungeons thoroughly to prevent speed running and exploitation and provide better incentives.

In order to stop the “easiest dungeon” running you’d probably find the amount of tokens per run/path to be REDUCED, and/or prices of gear put UP! You’d need some form of limiter system to ensure gear is EARNED!!! Ultimately your “limited time” gets blown out to the point of requiring MORE TIME to earn the same gear. Yes you get variety in dungeons, but you lose the ability to farm single dungeons to counteract it. I think you may find some people then content with running the bare minimum/easiest batch of dungeons/paths per day and being “satisfied” with that much and no more a day, and some dungeons/paths becoming “sitting relics”.

If you care to argue the point on this I’ve watched groups sit for 20-30mins for trash despawns, got to great lengths to avoid trash mobs, kite around unnecessary bosses, spend 20-30mins to avoid a 10min underwater fight, etc. The community at large is perhaps the worst for trying to find a lazy way around things (whether its dungeon design or community issues who cares, the point remains its there!)

Furthermore the dungeon armor sets as pointed out lose the significance of the dungeons they are attached to and the value with them. Those who EARNED their gear through the current method would be pretty ticked off. Remembering back to WoW such an implementation in their raids had a huge negative impact in the high end community but those were slightly different circumstances to these. Some of the content like Naxx was never touched again outside of achievement running. I’m looking at those dungeons here that are classed as hard or too time consuming.

That’s my 5 cents worth, for what value it may have. Long story short this game has been designed in such a way that a one token system would IMHO not work.

If anything my main complaint lies in the variety of stats available ON the gear – not in getting it. There’s also the “rewards chest” for the bosses being “unrewarding”, and said “Bonus Events” being nothing but a time sink with no actual “Bonus” – this should be renamed to “Ambush Event”. Bonus implies a benefit, for which you get nothing beneficial…. eh that’s my rant with gear and dungeons.

(edited by Snorehax.1904)

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Posted by: Bigbeef.7354

Bigbeef.7354

The arah armor already has no real “accomplishment factor” already. 90% of the people wearing the armor got it from speed running 1 or 2 bosses on the easiest path and resetting the dungeon.

But I agree, a universal token system will only promote doing the “easy dungeons” for gear. It’s good the way it is. And 180 tokens per day from all 3 paths is already a nice pace for reward. Much better than the 30s and 20s (or when bugged, 5) of days past.

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Posted by: kaotiktheory.8942

kaotiktheory.8942

Everyone keeps saying that one dungeon will be farmed so that it makes it easier to just do one dungeon and then allow you to get any dungeon set you want. I keep suggesting that all it needs is some diminishing returns so that repeated dungeons that day/or week wield less and less universal tokens.

I also think there should be a token exchange program. Exchange 2 tokens for 1 of your choice. Or something to that effect.

Also the fact that you get NO tokens if you happen to get cut off the internet or have real life commitments come up and stop your dungeon run even if you got the very last boss down to 1% health needs to be addressed.

Last night I got disconnected from the internet a minute or two after the last boss went down. Had it taken us a minute longer to down the boss I would have gone through 2.5 hours pure gaming torture for nothing.

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Posted by: phooka.4295

phooka.4295

Everyone keeps saying that one dungeon will be farmed so that it makes it easier to just do one dungeon and then allow you to get any dungeon set you want. I keep suggesting that all it needs is some diminishing returns so that repeated dungeons that day/or week wield less and less universal tokens.

Oh yes. As we know, the community just loves diminishing returns. Everybody will be so happy.

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Posted by: Henryik.8260

Henryik.8260

Having played through all paths on all dungeons there are just some places i would never go back to, especially those long and tedious paths.

Now i usually go AC path 2/ CoF path 1/ HotW path 1 and CoE path 1 every day with my dungeon crew, since they are fast, easy and well something to do on a routine basis (although i dont really need anything off the tokens)

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Posted by: theeagleeye.7693

theeagleeye.7693

Sigh. Another senseless thread asking for a having your cake, and eating it too solution.

So many players twisting the promise of ArenaNet. Stop complaining about dungeons being too difficult and monotonous. You’re rushing to get the armor, so naturally, you’ll have to deal with the consequences of doing it. Game is less than 2 months old, and people are already demanding something so unfair. One token to rule them all is the most self-destructive idea ever. As with MANY things in life, the good things often require patience and perseverance. YES, I agree that dungeons could use a little more work and fine tuning. But some of you need to get over yourselves and stop saying that it isn’t fun. The fun factor is diminished because you play to get the gear as fast as possible, instead of focusing on just playing the dungeon and coming up with strategies, without thinking of just give me my God kitten token while running it.

Stop acting as if your proposed solutions do not have the one fatal flaw that is so obvious, it’s literally staring at you. People generally want to get things done the fastest possible time, with the least amount of effort. You’d have to be an idiot to think that if there was just 1 dungeon currency, nobody would find the easiest and fastest dungeon to do.

Dungeon armor is PRESTIGE armor. They call it PRESTIGE for a reason.

Some must fight, so that all may be free!

Fort Aspenwood

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Posted by: Targren.6073

Targren.6073

The fun factor is diminished because you play to get the gear as fast as possible, instead of focusing on just playing the dungeon and coming up with strategies, without thinking of just give me my God kitten token while running it.

Speak for yourself. I find the “fun factor” being diminished because I’m running the same freaking dungeon over and over and over again, rather than getting some variety by running the others. THAT’S the contradiction in the red post’s reasoning above. For a development philosophy that hates farming and grinding so intensely, they seem awfully fond of requiring farming and grinding.

It has nothing to do with wanting to be “handed” anything or “rushing to get the gear,” and if you stopped fanboying long enough to think for a second you’d recognize that. We’d still have to “work” for the armor, we could just spread out that work over a change of scenery rather than having to split up because Guildie A wants the CM armor, but Guildie B wants CoF and you want TA.

Apparently the highly-touted “social” aspect of the game needs to be sacrificed on the altar of the Holy Grind, instead.

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Posted by: AngryToaster.5190

AngryToaster.5190

As it stands, little effort or skill is required to get exotic gear. One can easily warm-body auto-attack through any dungeon, wear gear with any stats, and reskin it with transmutation stones to look nice.

When you run into trouble is when you attempt honest min-maxing. Armor sets with the same stats you need only come from dungeon vendor. This means you have to run that dungeon, and no others. But once again, effort and skill aren’t factors. Time and luck are what you rely on. Time to find a group needing your specific dungeon for as many days as it takes, and luck that the group will be any good.

Repetitive dungeons don’t make it harder to gain gear, they make it boring. I wouldn’t mind at all if we had to unlock a dungeon’s vendor by running all its paths before we could buy gear. I wouldn’t mind an price increase on the gear. I wouldn’t mind a long Saturday of dungeon hopping with people from wherever in the world, slaying bosses and looting tokens to buy alt-spec gear.

The system he have isn’t challenging, it’s boring. If you geared your character under the current system, it means you overcame boredom. Putting up with a boring videogame isn’t anything to be proud of.

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Posted by: Strejda Tom.6108

Strejda Tom.6108

Well I like that the Dungeons aren’t equal in difficulty and lenght. I like that I have to farm more for Arah armor than for AC armor.

Strejda Tom, the last unicorn.
Always remember one thing – your opinion is your opinion not fact.

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Posted by: Aphix.9846

Aphix.9846

Worst idea I’ve seen. Dev said exactly why, it would make the whole dungeons completely useless. People would only do 1 dungeon all day, some kinda easy CoF runs and get Arah set ? It’s called the Orrian/arah set because you can only get it from Arah and that’s how it will stay.
If there’d be universal tokens might as well just remove 7 dungeons and keep 1. kitten it just only one path as well.

No. Get new friends or compromise, my mate ran CoF with me even tho he did not want anything from there, he ended up getting the sword anyway, but when I was done we both went for Arah.

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Posted by: Gray.9650

Gray.9650

To successfully implement that style of system you would have to tinker with the dungeons to even coax people into them (WoW uses mounts/achievements/titles – particularly for the number of different ways, speeds, and styles to kill bosses). You would have to redevelop the dungeons thoroughly to prevent speed running and exploitation and provide better incentives.

and that’s the whole point. you either let people choose their fun and reward them over time or create content so shallow to you have to “coax” them to run the same boring content over and over. because in the end you either have a lot of people happily playing and be entertained or people go “thank god I’m done with this crap won’t touch it again with a 10-foot pole” – which, considering the fact people depend on others wanting to do dungeons (can’t do it alone, can you?), which do you think is the better solution long term?

even without a sub my time is still too precious for grinding un-fun content for hours for pixels. If I wanted to do THAT there are plenty of sub based game that do that far better. (inb4 “wahwah you only want easy mode with instant rewards”. wrong. read again).

if there would be alternatives a lot less people wouldn’t care about dungeons and how bad/good/long/fun they are. it’s like trying to market one single product to 4 different demographics at once where 3 don’t need/want it instead of adapting it to each. fact is anet wants people to play so they buy gems. besides dungeongrind there is hardly anything to do on 80.
dungeons are just another indicator that they lost the ability to design an engaging endgame after gw1.

(edited by Gray.9650)

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Posted by: fathamburger.8453

fathamburger.8453

With all due respect to the designers, you guys are wrong on this. The whole endgame is fatally flawed but could be fixed with relatively easy to implement changes but that’s a different post so I’ll just mention what’s relevant here.

Everyone that’s mentioned the “spreading out and doing other dungeons with friends” or just to keep all dungeon groups viable vs the ones that are either easier to farm or more popular are right. HoTW for example is just tedious, CoE is even more so and frequently quoted as “not worth effort” especially for path 3 and the number of times Subject Alpha comes back., Arah the rewards are out of whack for the time expense and already we see a sharp falloff/disappearance in people wanting to do them. SE is 50/50 etc. You see AC and CoF a lot because they are quick and predictable but also realistic, with Arah disconnects / newb grps / random bad pulls you can go from 2 hour run 4-5 run easily. while the worst case for AC and CoF you might be in for about 1.. to 1 and a half hours which is sttill palatable.

Basically the answer is this. One universal token but give them out according to difficulty/average run time. For example.. smaller amounts for the faster ones and larger amounts for the longer ones. You should be rewarded at least 120 tokens if not 150 imo for the time it takes. This will put a risk/reward element to it and people can actually choose to enjoy the dungeons for the content and challenge and BE REWARDED APPROPRIATELY which is really the key thing here. The universal token also avoids the whole exchange rate thing and having to make them not bound at all for exchange purposes.

Designers, you guys are VERY wrong on this and the design contradicts the philosophy of the entire game up to that point as many people are telling you here, but again.. more on this later in another post

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(edited by fathamburger.8453)

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Posted by: Icarus Pherae.4680

Icarus Pherae.4680

One token to rule them all.
Any character to find them.
One vendor to bring them all,
And in the forge bind them.

The main problem we see with a universal token system, is that players will find the easiest dungeons they can do within the DR system’s influence range, and just do them over and over.
It would be like if people could use all their CoF tokens from the speed/exploit clears, and buy up Arah Dragon armor. Were that the case, the armor itself would have no real value behind it. When you look at a player and you see a full suit of dragon armor, you know that they did a certain thing to get that armor. With a universal token system, you lose that sense of knowledge of what another player has gone through to get what they have.

Couldn’t you counteract that by making different dungeon armor cost more or less tokens? And/or make the easier dungeons reward less tokens?

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Posted by: theeagleeye.7693

theeagleeye.7693

The fun factor is diminished because you play to get the gear as fast as possible, instead of focusing on just playing the dungeon and coming up with strategies, without thinking of just give me my God kitten token while running it.

Speak for yourself. I find the “fun factor” being diminished because I’m running the same freaking dungeon over and over and over again, rather than getting some variety by running the others. THAT’S the contradiction in the red post’s reasoning above. For a development philosophy that hates farming and grinding so intensely, they seem awfully fond of requiring farming and grinding.

It has nothing to do with wanting to be “handed” anything or “rushing to get the gear,” and if you stopped fanboying long enough to think for a second you’d recognize that. We’d still have to “work” for the armor, we could just spread out that work over a change of scenery rather than having to split up because Guildie A wants the CM armor, but Guildie B wants CoF and you want TA.

Apparently the highly-touted “social” aspect of the game needs to be sacrificed on the altar of the Holy Grind, instead.

LOL. Too bad you don’t think that way, and that’s probably the reason why you don’t have a full dungeon set. How is my post fanboying? Are we spitting out words that don’t make sense anymore, just to insult other people? I understand the point you are trying to make though, but tell me, how does that solve the problem of having people run the easiest, fastest instance for the tokens, just to buy an armor set from a different dungeon? You know very well this is going to be a problem, and don’t pretend that this isn’t going to happen.

Some must fight, so that all may be free!

Fort Aspenwood

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Posted by: Svarty.8019

Svarty.8019

I have a different suggestion…
While i understand that an universal token is a bad idea, why not make every set be bought with 60% from its main dg and the other 40% distributed among the other dgs?
EX: Now, you need 210 Arah tokens for Arah shoulders.
It could be something like 126 Arah tokens plus 12 tokens from each of the other 7 dgs.

Did nobody read my solution on second page?
:-(

You’re right, this is a great compromise.

Nobody at Anet loves WvW like Grouch loved PvP. That’s what we need, a WvW Grouch, but taller.

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Posted by: Jaha.2840

Jaha.2840

I have a different suggestion…
While i understand that an universal token is a bad idea, why not make every set be bought with 60% from its main dg and the other 40% distributed among the other dgs?
EX: Now, you need 210 Arah tokens for Arah shoulders.
It could be something like 126 Arah tokens plus 12 tokens from each of the other 7 dgs.

If the goal of acquiring a full set dungeon gear is to be both enjoyable and rewarding, then universal tokens are a necessity. For a set of dungeon armor you need 1380 tokens (that’s 23 runs @ 60 tokens per run). 23 runs!? And that’s just the armor! You’re killing us, anet . We desperately need some type of dungeon token currency exchange. Here’s an idea:

60 dungeon tokens in exchange for 20 universal tokens
20 universal tokens in exchange for 20 dungeon tokens.

It’s a diminished return of 3:1 making daily dungeons (60 tokens) the same value as running a different dungeon path for a second time in the same day (20 tokens). I don’t see any harm in a simple system like that. We want to enjoy all the dungeons, not the same friggin one 23+ times in a row!

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Posted by: Riaky.8965

Riaky.8965

I have a different suggestion…
While i understand that an universal token is a bad idea, why not make every set be bought with 60% from its main dg and the other 40% distributed among the other dgs?
EX: Now, you need 210 Arah tokens for Arah shoulders.
It could be something like 126 Arah tokens plus 12 tokens from each of the other 7 dgs.

If the goal of acquiring a full set dungeon gear is to be both enjoyable and rewarding, then universal tokens are a necessity. For a set of dungeon armor you need 1380 tokens (that’s 23 runs @ 60 tokens per run). 23 runs!? And that’s just the armor! You’re killing us, anet . We desperately need some type of dungeon token currency exchange. Here’s an idea:

60 dungeon tokens in exchange for 20 universal tokens
20 universal tokens in exchange for 20 dungeon tokens.

It’s a diminished return of 3:1 making daily dungeons (60 tokens) the same value as running a different dungeon path for a second time in the same day (20 tokens). I don’t see any harm in a simple system like that. We want to enjoy all the dungeons, not the same friggin one 23+ times in a row!

The best part about these dungeons are “cosmetic”. You’re doing all of these runs just for the look, the armors/weapons here don’t give you any advantage in pve or wvw. You can just pop on the AH and buy the same exact stats armors/weapons just from few hours of farming cursed shore.

Therefore the idea of these “dungeons” = all the end games gw2 has to offer is simply baffle me.

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Posted by: AngryToaster.5190

AngryToaster.5190

Let me offer my experience so far.

I’m playing a lvl80 engineer. Here’s my spec:

http://www.gw2db.com/skills/calc/engineer#10|10|2729|2454|6383|4700|4225|0|0|0|0|20|1419|1881|0|0|0|0|0|30|1015|1033|1785|20|2271|1882|0|0|0|1|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|

This build throws potions and uses the elixir gun. It does bleeds, poison, healing and boons. So the stats I want to stack are condition damage and healing. I plug these into gw2db’s filter, and find the gear I want. Turns out I need Divinity’s Council gear from CM. No other gear I’ve been able to find has these stats.

I’ve gotten some runs in so far. It’s been a mixed bag. I did two with friends of mine, but they’re playing XCOM now. I tried one triple-header with my guild, but nobody seems eager to do it again. The remaining runs I spent up to an hour and beyond trying to build pugs for. These have been more interesting than I usually tolerate. One was basically hijacked by a player with a tenuous grasp of english and broken caps lock, and who was obsessed about using some weird terrain exploit to avoid a few pulls.

I’m not asking for a less challenging game. I’m asking for a reward system that doesn’t incentivize people to restrict themselves to a single dungeon. I’m asking for the opportunity to play constructively without banging my head against the wall. I’m asking for a reasonable way for all those bored LFG-ers in Lion’s Arch to play together.

As far as people gaining false prestige by farming for Arah gear in AC, consider what Arah gear actually means. It’s no more powerful than AC gear. The value of its appearance is subjective, to say the least. In my opinion, a well-honed blade of a character, properly specced, statted and geared, built around a experience-grounded battleplan, and wielded by a knowledgeable and intelligent player is FAR more impressive than some blender-spec dude in a badly dyed Halloween costume.

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Posted by: phooka.4295

phooka.4295

The fun factor is diminished because you play to get the gear as fast as possible, instead of focusing on just playing the dungeon and coming up with strategies, without thinking of just give me my God kitten token while running it.

Speak for yourself. I find the “fun factor” being diminished because I’m running the same freaking dungeon over and over and over again, rather than getting some variety by running the others.

Then don’t do it.

Dungeon armor is neither best in slot, nor (supposed to be) the easy way to orange gear. Actually, crafted armor is faster and easier to acquire. You don’t have to get dungeon armor.

Dungeon armor is a reward for people who enjoy specific dungeons enough to run them again and again. It’s a way for those players to demonstrate that they did that dungeon quite often, are proficient in it and maybe even enjoy it.

The flipside of this argument is what you’re not going to like:
If you don’t enjoy this dungeon, you don’t deserve the armor thst’s designed for people to show off that they like it. If you like the style, maybe cultural armor will offer something similar for you, maybe not. But that’s not the dungeon’s fault.

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Posted by: Parisalchuk.9230

Parisalchuk.9230

I have a different suggestion…
While i understand that an universal token is a bad idea, why not make every set be bought with 60% from its main dg and the other 40% distributed among the other dgs?
EX: Now, you need 210 Arah tokens for Arah shoulders.
It could be something like 126 Arah tokens plus 12 tokens from each of the other 7 dgs.

If the goal of acquiring a full set dungeon gear is to be both enjoyable and rewarding, then universal tokens are a necessity. For a set of dungeon armor you need 1380 tokens (that’s 23 runs @ 60 tokens per run). 23 runs!? And that’s just the armor! You’re killing us, anet . We desperately need some type of dungeon token currency exchange. Here’s an idea:

60 dungeon tokens in exchange for 20 universal tokens
20 universal tokens in exchange for 20 dungeon tokens.

It’s a diminished return of 3:1 making daily dungeons (60 tokens) the same value as running a different dungeon path for a second time in the same day (20 tokens). I don’t see any harm in a simple system like that. We want to enjoy all the dungeons, not the same friggin one 23+ times in a row!

23 Run divided by 3 (Because a dungeon is made of ALL 3 PATHS….) is 8 days. If dont have the dedication to run the dungeon once a day for 8 days (Which for easier dungeons like CM/AC/TA thats a little over an hour a day) then you honestly dont deserve the skin. The argument is great till you actually analyze it and realize, wow it really doesnt take that long like everyone makes it seem.

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Posted by: Targren.6073

Targren.6073

LOL. Too bad you don’t think that way, and that’s probably the reason why you don’t have a full dungeon set. How is my post fanboying? Are we spitting out words that don’t make sense anymore, just to insult other people? I understand the point you are trying to make though, but tell me, how does that solve the problem of having people run the easiest, fastest instance for the tokens, just to buy an armor set from a different dungeon? You know very well this is going to be a problem, and don’t pretend that this isn’t going to happen.

Actually, the reason I don’t have a full dungeon set is that I don’t want a full dungeon set. It leads to top/bottom heavy builds since every piece has the same stats and a more balanced approach is better for maximum flexibility. It’s also not worth getting to transmute onto a good armor set since A) Having a separate transmute stone for 80 is a blatant BS cash grab, and they’re ugly as hell. They might be nice with OPs idea, since I could get them to transmute different stats on to good-looking armor, but as it is, it’s pretty pointless. There are less annoying ways to deck out in exotics.

At this point, I’m running each dungeon path once to get the achievements, then grabbing the lowbie gold armor to salvage or feed to the forge just to get the tokens out of my bank slots, because they’re useless otherwise.

And no, I wasn’t throwing out a word to insult you. I was actually giving you the benefit of the doubt by assuming that you were blinded by loyalty rather than just incapable of reading and thinking in a straight line.

As for the problem of people running the same path over and over again, that’s already been dealt with with the stupid DR mechanic. If anything, the OPs idea would INCREASE dungeon visibility, because you’d get groups that float between the different dungeons, since they want the tokens. Yes, some people would run the same path over and over again, but we ALREADY have that going on. That’s an issue of bad design, not a consequence of OPs idea.

It’s a good idea from a playability standpoint. The current implementation promotes endless, mindless grinding, since when you do the same dungeon over and over again, it gets easier, and then it BECOMES the easy path that you’re apparently so afraid of. That it offends someone’s kitten/ego is a stupid reason to dismiss it.

(edited by Targren.6073)

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Posted by: theeagleeye.7693

theeagleeye.7693

Actually, the reason I don’t have a full dungeon set is that I don’t want a full dungeon set.

Then why are you complaining in the first place? It’s like someone driving at 30 km/h, but complaining that the 100 km/h speed limit is too restricting.

Didn’t even bother finishing the entire post, since I saw a couple more subtle jabs and flaunting that holier than thou attitude. shrug I’m just glad ArenaNet isn’t listening to players like this one. There is no such thing as “enough” when it comes to pleasing them. They’ll just keep complaining and complaining and complaining.

And he still doesn’t think players will just spam run AC path 2, or CoF path 2 to get any armor set of their choosing.

Some must fight, so that all may be free!

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Posted by: Parisalchuk.9230

Parisalchuk.9230

LOL. Too bad you don’t think that way, and that’s probably the reason why you don’t have a full dungeon set. How is my post fanboying? Are we spitting out words that don’t make sense anymore, just to insult other people? I understand the point you are trying to make though, but tell me, how does that solve the problem of having people run the easiest, fastest instance for the tokens, just to buy an armor set from a different dungeon? You know very well this is going to be a problem, and don’t pretend that this isn’t going to happen.

Actually, the reason I don’t have a full dungeon set is that I don’t want a full dungeon set. It leads to top/bottom heavy builds since every piece has the same stats and a more balanced approach is better for maximum flexibility. It’s also not worth getting to transmute onto a good armor set since A) Having a separate transmute stone for 80 is a blatant BS cash grab, and they’re ugly as hell. They might be nice with OPs idea, since I could get them to transmute different stats on to good-looking armor, but as it is, it’s pretty pointless. There are less annoying ways to deck out in exotics.

At this point, I’m running each dungeon path once to get the achievements, then grabbing the lowbie gold armor to salvage or feed to the forge just to get the tokens out of my bank slots, because they’re useless otherwise.

And no, I wasn’t throwing out a word to insult you. I was actually giving you the benefit of the doubt by assuming that you were blinded by loyalty rather than just incapable of reading and thinking in a straight line.

As for the problem of people running the same path over and over again, that’s already been dealt with with the stupid DR mechanic. If anything, the OPs idea would INCREASE dungeon visibility, because you’d get groups that float between the different dungeons, since they want the tokens. Yes, some people would run the same path over and over again, but we ALREADY have that going on. That’s an issue of bad design, not a consequence of OPs idea.

It’s a good idea from a playability standpoint. The current implementation promotes endless, mindless grinding, since when you do the same dungeon over and over again, it gets easier, and then it BECOMES the easy path that you’re apparently so afraid of. That it offends someone’s kitten/ego is a stupid reason to dismiss it.

You are incorrect in your first statement…. The dungeons offer 3 variants of stats so you can mix and match.

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Posted by: Rask.9710

Rask.9710

Honestly, I was on this band wagon until I actually got around to doing the other dungeons. Dungeon gear is kittening cake to get guys, try getting WvW armor. I only want 3 pieces and it’s going to take me a month minimum.

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Posted by: Parisalchuk.9230

Parisalchuk.9230

Rask – Exactly. People make it sound like its going to take months to get. 8 days. EIGHT days of doing a dungeon once a day and you have a full armor set. (And really, the math is 7.6 days so 7 days of 3 paths and 1 day of 2 paths…. thats even shorter than a full 8 days!)

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Posted by: Aphix.9846

Aphix.9846

I have a different suggestion…
While i understand that an universal token is a bad idea, why not make every set be bought with 60% from its main dg and the other 40% distributed among the other dgs?
EX: Now, you need 210 Arah tokens for Arah shoulders.
It could be something like 126 Arah tokens plus 12 tokens from each of the other 7 dgs.

If the goal of acquiring a full set dungeon gear is to be both enjoyable and rewarding, then universal tokens are a necessity. For a set of dungeon armor you need 1380 tokens (that’s 23 runs @ 60 tokens per run). 23 runs!? And that’s just the armor! You’re killing us, anet . We desperately need some type of dungeon token currency exchange. Here’s an idea:

60 dungeon tokens in exchange for 20 universal tokens
20 universal tokens in exchange for 20 dungeon tokens.

It’s a diminished return of 3:1 making daily dungeons (60 tokens) the same value as running a different dungeon path for a second time in the same day (20 tokens). I don’t see any harm in a simple system like that. We want to enjoy all the dungeons, not the same friggin one 23+ times in a row!

23 RUNS IS ALOT ????
HUH ?

When you said 23 runs for the WHOLE SET (1380 tokens) I was like ‘Wow is it that easy ?’ I actually did think for a moment and go ‘Really, only 23 ?’
Do 2-3 paths per day and you get it in 2 weeks, also you can do other dungeons on the side lol.
A whole dungeon set should be hard to get, atm it’s fine as it is. If it gets any easier then this then everyone would be running around in dungeon sets, what would be the kittening point ?

No.

Dungeon token system is perfect as it is, only thing they need to add is getting tokens not only by finishing a path, but also a chance to get them in chests etc. Then of course adding actual LOOT in dungeons, more rares, low chance of getting exotics in chests and boss kills etc.

(edited by Aphix.9846)

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Posted by: Jaha.2840

Jaha.2840

I understand the elitist perspective of forcing someone to run 23 dungeons. I’ve done it mutliple times for the 3 full dungeon armor sets and weapons I have. All I do is run dungeons. Hear me out.

If you want to set the goal of acquiring a full set of CoF armor, you have only one option. Run CoF at least 23 times. Many of us feel that’s too narrow an approach to fulfilling that goal.

Why can’t it be 12 CoF runs, 7 AC runs, 8 CM runs, 3 SE runs, 6 CoE runs, and 9 HotW runs?

60 dungeon tokens for 20 universal
20 universal for 20 dungeon tokens

That way we are more encouraged to explore other dungeons, and we can get all our friends together for dungeons rather than be forced to split up to reach individual goals.

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Posted by: Targren.6073

Targren.6073

Didn’t even bother finishing the entire post, since I saw a couple more subtle jabs and flaunting that holier than thou attitude.

Right, like that comment about “that’s why you don’t have a full set” wasn’t waving your kitten around. Not at all.

And he still doesn’t think players will just spam run AC path 2, or CoF path 2 to get any armor set of their choosing.

Next time, finish reading the post. I absolutely acknowledged that would be the case for SOME players. My position is that those players are irrelevant, since they’re already doing that anyway, and the benefit to the majority of the other players who are then able to enjoy some variety outweighs it, if one takes the intelligent path and removes elitist ego whining from the equation.

You are incorrect in your first statement…. The dungeons offer 3 variants of stats so you can mix and match.

Confirmed. You’re correct, I got that wrong. Good to know, thank you. Now I need to see if I can find a list of dungeon-to-stat-sets and hope the combination I want isn’t Arah… kitten Lupicus and his resets.

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Posted by: phooka.4295

phooka.4295

I understand the elitist perspective of forcing someone to run 23 dungeons. I’ve done it mutliple times for the 3 full dungeon armor sets and weapons I have. All I do is run dungeons. Hear me out.

If you want to set the goal of acquiring a full set of CoF armor, you have only one option. Run CoF at least 23 times. Many of us feel that’s too narrow an approach to fulfilling that goal.

Why can’t it be 12 CoF runs, 7 AC runs, 8 CM runs, 3 SE runs, 6 CoE runs, and 9 HotW runs?

60 dungeon tokens for 20 universal
20 universal for 20 dungeon tokens

That way we are more encouraged to explore other dungeons, and we can get all our friends together for dungeons rather than be forced to split up to reach individual goals.

Why do you have to run CoF for CoF armor. Good question. Maybe because it’s CoF armor?

Always remember:
- You don’t need dungeon armor. There’s equally well specced crafted armor to be had.
- You don’t need 6 pieces from the same dungeon unless you’re keen on the runes. The runes however can be bought seperately for fewer tokens.
- If it’s “universal tokens” you want all you get is “universal dungeon skin #1 – #8”.

I sure am not elitist. I’ve only completed all 4 paths for one dungeon and my regular group has now started working our way though the other dungeons. I’m wearing crafted armor. I’m not even collecting dungeon armor because neither do I like the looks nor do I like the itemisation. I’m doing these dungeons for fun.

However, I’ve collected over 1k tokens for TA because my wife needed 500 for legendary and wants the set. Is it a chore? Well, yea. But then again, noone forces us to have a set by next friday. We can take a break and run the other dungeons for a few nights and then come back and sleepwalk our way through TA for a few nights so the ones interested in those get their flower-clothes. So?

I’m sure not elitist. But I’m also not self-entitled. I don’t expect to have everything handed to me as a reward for exactly what i’m willing to do anyway.

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Posted by: VanderBeltLegacy.4736

VanderBeltLegacy.4736

One token to rule them all.
Any character to find them.
One vendor to bring them all,
And in the forge bind them.

The main problem we see with a universal token system, is that players will find the easiest dungeons they can do within the DR system’s influence range, and just do them over and over.
It would be like if people could use all their CoF tokens from the speed/exploit clears, and buy up Arah Dragon armor. Were that the case, the armor itself would have no real value behind it. When you look at a player and you see a full suit of dragon armor, you know that they did a certain thing to get that armor. With a universal token system, you lose that sense of knowledge of what another player has gone through to get what they have.

Point taken, but still; there has to be a better way than to just say “go grind dungeon X until you’ve accumulated enough tokens”. Even with the different dungeon paths, it still restricts a player to only certain content to accomplish their goal.

no different to grinding UW/FoW in gw1 to get x amount of ecto’s/obsi shard’s, i mean shore i could farm TotpK but it was faster/easier to grind UW
or grinding GoA for gems, to trade for an armbrace to trade for a weapon.

so coming from GW1, I have to say this is very BLIZZARD attitude. of people “i want the armor/prestige, but don’t wanna do what others have had to do”.

(edited by VanderBeltLegacy.4736)

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Posted by: phooka.4295

phooka.4295

I have to say this is very BLIZZARD attitude. of people “i want the armor/prestige, but don’t wanna do what others have had to do”.

For me, the “Blizzardy” thing is that requests like this (to me) emenate a notion that “best in slot” and “highest tier” equipment has to be gathered as fast as possible. Because you know, you need it for the best content. And if you’re late to the show, you’re gonna miss the content (it being obsolete once the next patch comes around).
This notion is, of course, so completely off in every respect as to be completely nonsensical. But it seems quite prevalent none the less.

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Posted by: Parisalchuk.9230

Parisalchuk.9230

One token to rule them all.
Any character to find them.
One vendor to bring them all,
And in the forge bind them.

The main problem we see with a universal token system, is that players will find the easiest dungeons they can do within the DR system’s influence range, and just do them over and over.
It would be like if people could use all their CoF tokens from the speed/exploit clears, and buy up Arah Dragon armor. Were that the case, the armor itself would have no real value behind it. When you look at a player and you see a full suit of dragon armor, you know that they did a certain thing to get that armor. With a universal token system, you lose that sense of knowledge of what another player has gone through to get what they have.

Point taken, but still; there has to be a better way than to just say “go grind dungeon X until you’ve accumulated enough tokens”. Even with the different dungeon paths, it still restricts a player to only certain content to accomplish their goal.

no different to grinding UW/FoW in gw1 to get x amount of ecto’s/obsi shard’s, i mean shore i could farm TotpK but it was faster/easier to grind UW
or grinding GoA for gems, to trade for an armbrace to trade for a weapon.

so coming from GW1, I have to say this is very BLIZZARD attitude. of people “i want the armor/prestige, but don’t wanna do what others have had to do”.

To be fair you had the option to purchase Ectos and Shards from other players. You cannot do that with dungeon tokens.

That being said I still support that a Universal Token System is not in the best intrest of the game.

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Posted by: Jaha.2840

Jaha.2840

- You don’t need 6 pieces from the same dungeon unless you’re keen on the runes.
- If it’s “universal tokens” you want all you get is “universal dungeon skin #1 – #8”.
I don’t expect to have everything handed to me as a reward for exactly what i’m willing to do anyway.

As a Dungeon Master, I can assure you that a diminished universal token (DUT) would be quite opposite of that. Try to imagine doing Arah once for 60 tokens, and then spending those 60 tokens on 20 DUTs that you transfer into 20 TA tokens. That’s not exactly a good trade-off. In many situations, you’d be making dungeon tokens worth less. Nothing would be “handed to you as a reward” for doing dungeons outside your desired dungeon.

I’m not the kind of player to turn down a dungeon, even if that dungeon has nothing I want. I met a lot of good players that I added as friends while doing dungeons, but consequently removed them all because bringing together a group of them was impractical due to their individual gear goals. I’ve also got 1000+ tokens from dungeons that I have no use for.

Even if we can’t agree on DUTs, we must at least agree that there is a flaw with the system that HIGHLY discourages grouping with friends. I just think that a partial DUT system would greatly improve that.

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Posted by: maaprid.2168

maaprid.2168

Again there’s a lot of feedback and misunderstanding going on. I posted a response on the first page (if you bothered reading through the thread instead of jumping to insults).

Yes, my main complaint is having things to do with friends. Not necessarily because I want “easy gear” (really people??)

I for one have already stopped running TA after about 600 tokens. Which I bought the GS and was going to buy the staff(1 run away,) but meh its just for looks anyways right?

You are right, I don’t HAVE to have it, its for looks…

But please tell me via dungeons what is there to do PVE side for guilds and friends that doesn’t involve grinding one dungeon indefinitely until player A finishes their set.

This is more about finding something cooperative and universally beneficial for the entire party.

And to the above poster saying it takes 8 days to get your set and running 3 paths only takes an hour?(thats 20 mins per path, undoable without exploiting) You my friend must be one of the exploiters, doing the “speed clears” because even with great groups clearing 1 path usually takes anywhere from about 50mins +.

If you care to see what my recommendation is please go back to the first page and read through the responses.

Thanks for the feedback.

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Posted by: Dogblaster.6713

Dogblaster.6713

This is just bad idea and suggestion.

First of all, there are always hard and easy dungeons. For instance, CoF route 1-2 what can be done in 15 minutes with random bad player groups. And there you have Arah, CoE etc where you need more skilled players and better builds with some communication.

If I see player with full Arah gear, I atleast know he has good build, he knows his class and he put some effort into it.

When I see player with CoF, TA gear … I just say meh, some random lame kitten that farmed it in a week ..

Just deal with it … You want some specific gear? So just run the specific dungeon and stop complaining.

THIS IS MMORPG, it should be played for months, years. NOT weeks. So if expect having best looking gear set in the week you are just kitten. Sorry …

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Posted by: misterducky.4876

misterducky.4876

Guys. The whole point of dungeon armor is that it’s supposed to be difficult to take time to get. I can do speed runs of SE in path 1 and 3. I can get 120 tokens a day in the span of maybe an hour, at most. Arah, on the other hand, is like 4 hours a path.

If every dungeon were as difficult as Arah, they could implement a universal currency system, but then you guys would just complain about how hard all the dungeons are and that the bosses are too OP.

I HAVE A PLAN! GIGANTICUS LUPICUS IN ALL THE DUNGEONS! HE DROPS UNIVERSAL TOKENS!

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Posted by: Harbard.5738

Harbard.5738

We don’t want easier dungeons, we don’t want less "work" to get stuff! We just want VARIETY, we want FUN (that’s what you pay game companies for, by the way, some MMOers don’t seem to grasp that concept). We also want to be able to play with our friends or pug faster and not endlessly shout LFG [insert specific boring kitten farm dungeon here]. You know do something different, challenging for the stuff we want.

Give me game. Not grind, not gating, not RNG, not +stat junk, not checklists.