Guild Wars 2

Spiuk.8421:

Dub.1273:

Still, 6 of 8 professions suck at dealing damage. If there is more than one target, 7 suck.

No.

In fact 100b warriors are not the highest DPS in the game (talking about organized groups).

Yup, thieves do more damage on singletarget when they somehow get buffed mightstacks, fure and banner-boni. Wonder where those buffs would come from.

Also, it sometimes isn’t that easy to build an organized group. We started as 3 people and we still are 3 people because we just seem to be unable finding other skilled german players with a decent knowledge of the dungeons we do. Therefore we just solo/duo/trio and are fine with it if at least one or two of us play warrior. Because when we, like yesterdan, run arah path 3 as ele+mesmer, we would have been done threee times as warrior+guardian/warrior. 15 min vs 45 min.

Ratty.5176:

LordByron.8369:

DanH.5879:

do i really really need to make an warrior/mesmer for pve !??!
any comments from a-net on this problem ?

no you need warrior or guardian..

Mesmer is only for CoF path 1 portal for lazy players.

Not at all. The Mesmer does a lot of other useful things. Doubles up boons, Time Warps, Pulls enemies into location so you can AOE them down, places Feedback to protect the DPS during the first part

double wich boons? ou get 25 might easily anyway..
Time warp nerf makes sure to not compensate foir inferior mesmer DPS comparing to war/guards

Pulls enemies….unreliable better using binding blade….

Feedback is good but its short and has long CD.

Feedback and iWarden are the only thing a mesmer brings…and when 1 guard can do it better than 3 mesmers…why bother?

LordByron.8369:

Feedback and iWarden are the only thing a mesmer brings…and when 1 guard can do it better than 3 mesmers…why bother?

One mesmer brings 100% uptime AoE reflect. How can a guradian do that better?

LordByron.8369:

DanH.5879:

do i really really need to make an warrior/mesmer for pve !??!
any comments from a-net on this problem ?

no you need warrior or guardian..

Mesmer is only for CoF path 1 portal for lazy players.

unfortunately there are huge misconception that some classes are good…

-mesmer its really not that good and overrated for antiprojectile

-Ele is hugely underrated at antiprojectile but unfortunately even in zerker his dps is too low and can be a hinderance (there are DPS walls in the game).
If you see an ele with a staff btw you know that 90% it won t bring much to the party in any area.

-thief is the most underrated PvE profession its really strong beside not being a star class like G and W, unfortunately most thief players are not experienced in PvE and that goves the class a bad reputation
Aside that is possible the third best.

-eng is also good for support….better than ele possibly but again who cares of support?
With a game balanced around pure DPS.

TL:DR this is the only game where “a dead character deals no damage” rule doesn t work

Its better to die in a burst of damage than trying slowly to kill opponents.
reasons:
-most fights resets
-downed state push dps
-cc are useless
-2/3 seconds protection/invu skills promotes burst
-HUGE mob regen
-mob damage and numbers are completely unbalanced to push difficulty instead of a good AI (its a mmorpg u can t ask much more) or other methods (most work should be done here instead see random encounters).

and stuff like that….
In this meta the 3 rules are

Guardian are best
Warrior are second best
Every equipment that isn t Pow prec crit, is subpar.

hammer ele is 1 of the highest dps in the game and the fierygs in the right circumstances is the highest

Azure Prower.8701:

You’re not an inferior class. They’re just looking for a specific group composition with specific classes to do a specific type of run.

Just respect their wishes, move on and make you’re own group or join some one looking for some thing similar you’re looking for.

specific as in all pve dungeon content. nice try tho

this is an issue.

LordByron.8369:

double wich boons? ou get 25 might easily anyway..
Time warp nerf makes sure to not compensate foir inferior mesmer DPS comparing to war/guards

Pulls enemies….unreliable better using binding blade….

Feedback is good but its short and has long CD.

Feedback and iWarden are the only thing a mesmer brings…and when 1 guard can do it better than 3 mesmers…why bother?

1. Temporal curtain is so easy to ball mobs up with on an exact location (against a wall for ex) and you don’t even have to be near to do it

2. True feedback has a slightly long cd, as do most reflect skills but it covers a whole area 360 degrees and can be traited to have shorter cd which fits many builds anyway. I almost never use iWarden with the intent of reflecting only, but it offers decent dmg coupled with reflect for nice combo if it stays alive

3. No other class can bring precision quickness to an entire group and for a long duration – how is this not good?

I main guard but have equal if not more fun on my mes, no other class brings such utility coupled with raw dmg as well (if you’re not using mh sword for dps purpose you’re doing it wrong[speaking generally here..], vulnerability and boon stripping with ability for 2s invuln while doing nice dmg)

So good/fun to play. I would recommend for anyone regardless of what you plans are for playing it.

DanH.5879:

do i really really need to make an warrior/mesmer for pve !??!
any comments from a-net on this problem ?

I have every class BUT mesmer and warrior and I never have issues getting groups. My Guardian mostly does Fractals and Arah. I use Ranger for almost everything else. HOWEVER, I never join farming or speed run groups. If you want to join a farming or speed run group, you usually have to be warrior, some farming groups take mesmers. If you want to “farm” or do “speed” run, start your own “any classes but must be beserkers” or whatever farming or speed run groups.

SoliSnake.9457:

hammer ele is 1 of the highest dps in the game and the fierygs in the right circumstances is the highest

with a flawed design that makes it useful only for cof1 runs.

I use fiery GS sometimes in fractals…

You get downed, you have to interact with something?
You lose the weapon

Also its like asking an ele to play like half a warrior, with less dps and light armor low HP ._.

As said many times most conjured damage comes from warrior support :/

P.S. and its not about “speed run” that is another common misconception.

DPS makes runs way EASIER.
You notice it clearly in arah and High Level fotm (40+)

LordByron.8369:

If you see an ele with a staff btw you know that 90% it won t bring much to the party in any area.

Are you sure you’re playing GW2? Staff Ele is amazing for group support.

Shame it sucks at everything else.

mjharrison.3209:

LordByron.8369:

If you see an ele with a staff btw you know that 90% it won t bring much to the party in any area.

Are you sure you’re playing GW2? Staff Ele is amazing for group support.

Shame it sucks at everything else.

As an ele you need at least ALL weapon and possibly 2 armorsets to be less of a burden for your party.

When you start doing this you end up seeing wich weapon you use less and why….

hammer.9721:

Iures.2894:

hammer.9721:

Ioflux.4369:

Talking about dying to a P/D thief in a PvE forum discussion. The best….

Another person that cant read.Your buddy said i made him because i cant melee.So i said the reason why i made him p/d.It must really bother some people knowing that all classes can actually farm cof.Now noticed i said farm nowhere in any of my posts did i say i do speed runs.i couldnt care less if a run takes me a minute longer.

In calling out someone else for not being able to read, you’ve sadly shown that you can’t even keep your sources straight. Nikaido hasn’t said anything (yet) about your not being able to melee, just that you chose an absolute garbage weapon set. He at no point speculated as to why you would choose to do this. Regardless, your crap damage setup seems to be actively killing your team mates. Congratulations?

lol You kinda look stupid right now dont you
You’re choosing the easy way out because you’re probably incapable of entering melee range.Wonder who said that

Last post them im done with you idiots.It is up to my team mates to decide If im pulling my weight or not in my groups not some elites on a message board that cant even read what the topic is about.

Right.. and denial is just a river in Egypt, Man just get another dagger and run D/D you will notice why P/D is the worst skill set to use.

Pistol dagger is great dps if you consider 5 stacks of bleeeding great dps.

ahh thats the best when im in a pug and i hear in team chat “look at all those bleeds” sooo much bleeding

JJBigs.8456:

ahh thats the best when im in a pug and i hear in team chat “look at all those bleeds” sooo much bleeding

well, the problem is the 25 bleed stack limit, so if 3 of you have the same spec, dps is greatly reduced…

and the answer to my question still remains:

the farming party means 4warr+mesmer or the ability to stay more than 1h+ ?

DanH.5879:

JJBigs.8456:

ahh thats the best when im in a pug and i hear in team chat “look at all those bleeds” sooo much bleeding

well, the problem is the 25 bleed stack limit, so if 3 of you have the same spec, dps is greatly reduced…

and the answer to my question still remains:

the farming party means 4warr+mesmer or the ability to stay more than 1h+ ?

Yes it is the typical composition for COF P1 farming. Don’t lose sleep over it because it concerns only the easiest dungeon Cof and only Cof.

TIL thief is now also considered inferior class.

When I lead dungeons, I could care less about which weapons someone is using and if their dps is low because of it. I would probably care if skills were all the same across all weapons so it just makes sense to use the one with the highest damage, since they’re all the same. But each weapon type changes your playstyle. I’d much rather have people play the way they want, using the weapon they want, regardless if it’s making the boss takes a little longer to die. Actually, it annoys me so much when others try to control how another person plays his/her character. If I met a guardian who decided to use only staff all the time, that’s his preference and I wouldn’t tell him change his weapon or get kicked.

In this game, high damage is meaningless in the grand scheme, except for one boss in the entire game. There’s no content that 5 glass canons can do that 5 bunkers can’t do. Just takes a little longer. And there are no enrage timers in this game on any of the fights. In WoW, your dps needs to be pushing a certain amount otherwise the boss enrages and wipes the whole group after a certain amount of time. As long as the boss dies, who cares?

Nikaido.3457:

If he was a newbie, I’d be fine with it. If we’re talking about an experienced player in 48 fotm this is an insta kick no question asked. 48 runs take long enough already, doing these with people who would use something like staff on mobs is pushing it.

The level of experience will determine how I will react. There is no excuse for an experienced player with 4K+ achiev point and 40+ fotm to be that much of a kitten. A new player at 1K achiev and little dungeoning experience, I’d let anything go and try to explain stuff to him. If you’ve played gw2 a lot and are showing any sign of such experience and still didn’t try to learn, well, tough luck, you’re getting booted.

But staff op, tag everything!

Nikaido.3457:

Riss.1536:

Yes it is the typical composition for COF P1 farming. Don’t lose sleep over it because it concerns only the easiest dungeon Cof and only Cof.

Only CoF
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cpp0AZQjRtE

Only CoF
http://www.youtube.com/user/strife025

Right. This type of group composition only makes CoF better. It doesn’t work in other dungeons. Berserker warrior heavy groups is a CoF thing.
I also like how you’re mentioning “easiest” as if this group composition doesn’t work in harder dungeons. It actually makes these harder dungeons easier.

Only CoF, right, keep telling yourself that.

Maybe I wasn’t clear with my answer to OP. He asked 4 warriors + mesmer. I said yes and it’s for Cof.
Your links show me guardian + warrior + mesmer and not 4 warriors + mesmer…
So yeah “Only CoF, right, keep telling myself that”

Hot Boy.7138:

In this game, high damage is meaningless in the grand scheme, except for one boss in the entire game. There’s no content that 5 glass canons can do that 5 bunkers can’t do. Just takes a little longer. And there are no enrage timers in this game on any of the fights. In WoW, your dps needs to be pushing a certain amount otherwise the boss enrages and wipes the whole group after a certain amount of time. As long as the boss dies, who cares?

This shows a serious lack of understanding of the game mechanics and of what speedclear groups are trying to achieve. Look, anyone can complete a marathon, meaning that generally any human being can traverse 26 miles on foot. But it takes skill and practice to beat the marathon records. Yes, any random assortment of skill levels with a random assortment of classes can complete any PvE content in this game. But it takes certain classes with certain builds and skill to maximize damage in order to minimize time spent on the dungeon run. Not every group can do that, and you’re not a bad person if you can’t do it or don’t want to.

But there’s nothing wrong with people who can and do.

Broadicea.8294:

Hot Boy.7138:

In this game, high damage is meaningless in the grand scheme, except for one boss in the entire game. There’s no content that 5 glass canons can do that 5 bunkers can’t do. Just takes a little longer. And there are no enrage timers in this game on any of the fights. In WoW, your dps needs to be pushing a certain amount otherwise the boss enrages and wipes the whole group after a certain amount of time. As long as the boss dies, who cares?

This shows a serious lack of understanding of the game mechanics and of what speedclear groups are trying to achieve. Look, anyone can complete a marathon, meaning that generally any human being can traverse 26 miles on foot. But it takes skill and practice to beat the marathon records. Yes, any random assortment of skill levels with a random assortment of classes can complete any PvE content in this game. But it takes certain classes with certain builds and skill to maximize damage in order to minimize time spent on the dungeon run. Not every group can do that, and you’re not a bad person if you can’t do it or don’t want to.

But there’s nothing wrong with people who can and do.

I agree with this completely. It’s as you said, just depends on the people who run with. If they are capable and want a speed run, or they don’t care so much for it.

Mesmer and thief both bring a lot of really usefull utilities to the group, while still having decent dps. Still, I prefer mesmer more than thief in groups.
Though I agree, that pull, stack, burst+invuln is the way to go in most dungeons and all the utilities are not that relevant if you have enough damage.

Mesmer having decent dps? You consider extremely weak autoattacks and instant-death illusions are stong damage? I believe a GS warrior only using Hundret Blades (no autoattacks or other skills) will do more damage than a mesmer.

the level of kittengery in this thread has reached critical mass; though it seems to be emanating from one person in particular I’ll let the community figure out who that is.

I will admit these threads serve as a great way of blocking people before you have to play with them.

sidenote: funny how it changed my curse word to kittenegery; which doesn’t resemble the curse word much; oh well.

LordByron.8369:

DanH.5879:

do i really really need to make an warrior/mesmer for pve !??!
any comments from a-net on this problem ?

no you need warrior or guardian..

Mesmer is only for CoF path 1 portal for lazy players.

unfortunately there are huge misconception that some classes are good…

-mesmer its really not that good and overrated for antiprojectile

-Ele is hugely underrated at antiprojectile but unfortunately even in zerker his dps is too low and can be a hinderance (there are DPS walls in the game).
If you see an ele with a staff btw you know that 90% it won t bring much to the party in any area.

-thief is the most underrated PvE profession its really strong beside not being a star class like G and W, unfortunately most thief players are not experienced in PvE and that goves the class a bad reputation
Aside that is possible the third best.

-eng is also good for support….better than ele possibly but again who cares of support?
With a game balanced around pure DPS.

TL:DR this is the only game where “a dead character deals no damage” rule doesn t work

Its better to die in a burst of damage than trying slowly to kill opponents.
reasons:
-most fights resets
-downed state push dps
-cc are useless
-2/3 seconds protection/invu skills promotes burst
-HUGE mob regen
-mob damage and numbers are completely unbalanced to push difficulty instead of a good AI (its a mmorpg u can t ask much more) or other methods (most work should be done here instead see random encounters).

and stuff like that….
In this meta the 3 rules are

Guardian are best
Warrior are second best
Every equipment that isn t Pow prec crit, is subpar.

Whats funny is I take my rabid Mesmer to COF one and regularly see the bosses taking 14k damage over a couple seconds from confusion. That is more damage than a shatter Mesmer can put out or a phantasm Mesmer. And I can keep it stacked. My permastealth d/p thief never has to heal and can still crit on the bosses with a 5k backstab. While providing good support and regen capabilities.

My guild leader is a staff ele and they are amazing. Take a staff ele and a thief with a SB and you can heal an entire party to full with out using elites. And we can still finish COF1 in <10 min. Zerk warriors bring great damage buffs sure… but that’s it… Zerk mesmers bring portal and time warp and just sit back after.

Dub.1273:

Mesmer having decent dps? You consider extremely weak autoattacks and instant-death illusions are stong damage? I believe a GS warrior only using Hundret Blades (no autoattacks or other skills) will do more damage than a mesmer.

Mesmer auto attack with sword (which is your dps weapon) inflicts vuln on strike 1-2 and strips potential protective boons on strike 3, and yes a zerk mes will have decent dps with it.

Warrior with GS doing more dmg than mes, hm, who would have though? Not seeing your point >_>

And a good mes doesn’t always try keep illusions alive, they sac as necessary to apply vulnerability/gain invuln. Only time you need them up is for heals, or if traited to get the extra 3% dmg per active illusion.

Yeah they inflict 5 second vulnerability each hit. A warrior 8 seconds. And stripping boons from opponents is so unbelievable useless in pve. From what i see, mesmers do not have decent dps at all. Probably i’m just specced wrong, but more than 100% berserker and traits focusing on damage, except focus reflect trait, sadly isn’t possible.
I think you dont consider good dps as i do. Good dps for me is dealing so much damage, that the damage you do is really noticable, even in a 5 men group. Warriors fulfull that, thieves and eles in various circumstances too. Mesmers never. Good dps to you seems to be around 1.5k autoattacks, because a mesmer can’t do more unless buffed massively from warriors in the group. And even then, in my opinion, mesmers dps isnt close to beeing high enough.

ele don t >.>
i have an ele and a mesmer….

i agree with you that mesmer dps is not so good….but its inline with most professions.

The issue are warriors that are not comparable…

I mean they have the best dps because they have to melee….
Then explain me why on earth a light class like mesmer and ele can t do half of a warrior damage in melee.

The sad thing is
:
How comes despite this is a crucial issue for most players no dev has yet said anything about PvE state of the game?

In several situations eles offer the highest dps in the whole game by far. Fiery GS is just uncomaparable. Mesmer have the same level at risk in melee as warriors, if not even slightly more because of less armor and hp. Therefore a mesmer should deal exactly the same damage as an unbuffed warrior.

i use fiery GS in zerker…
Without warrior support it deals 3-4000 dps in full zerker but the attack rate is not so fast.

Not to mention that fiery GS is by definition a Burst due to the cooldown.
If you look at DPS conjured weapons are not that appealing and expecially if you think of all downsides they have …

In game you often will lose your conjured.

mesmer has a lower base attack as i read on a post by dev, whereas ele has the lowest base attack in game.

The offender btw are the 8sec CD 100B AND axe burst.

And i don t think we should still discuss war dps as the best in the game….

Guard tops for PVE utility overall use. Mes would be my 2nd choice for utility/DPS and elementalists/thief a very close 3rd (in some situations equal to mes).

War is always good DPS, but very limited utility.

I’d place all others together based on content/situation.

Honestly, I think many of the profs are good depending on situation. You have to think, do I need more damage, or do I need reflect, condition removal, stealth, healing, etc? Many times it’s damage, but maybe not.

I’ve run lots of high level fractals with more optimal groups (war, guard, mes, thief, etc ) and with mish-mash no heavy groups. Good players can make both happen and to me it’s fun to see what profs cover one another on certain fights. On harpies I’d kick every war in the group for guards lol.

This is of course my opinion in more difficult pve (mainly fractals, arah, etc), not cof faceroll level content.

LordByron.8369:

i use fiery GS in zerker…
Without warrior support it deals 3-4000 dps in full zerker but the attack rate is not so fast.

Not to mention that fiery GS is by definition a Burst due to the cooldown.
If you look at DPS conjured weapons are not that appealing and expecially if you think of all downsides they have …

In game you often will lose your conjured.

mesmer has a lower base attack as i read on a post by dev, whereas ele has the lowest base attack in game.

The offender btw are the 8sec CD 100B AND axe burst.

And i don t think we should still discuss war dps as the best in the game….

over 100k damage only by using skill 4 is low?

SoliSnake.9457:

over 100k damage only by using skill 4 is low?

I ll bite your lure….

I do less than 4000 with skill 1 CHAIN.
Other skills does less

my equip (full exo/ascended):
Zrker armor
Zerker weapons
Zerker rings
3 celestial accessory
Runes of the pack (power+precision)

war does at least 30.000 with 100B.
And don t have to wait a long CD to equip his weapon nor lose it every few seconds.

I fyou refer to the wall glitch….well its not only extremely situational and it doesn t even deals 20.000 but its a GLITCH….

a war cant do this!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRab_4rnnFU this aint my highest dps skill 3 record is 38k, chain 1 over 20k and skill 4 2,8k each tick

SoliSnake.9457:

a war cant do this!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRab_4rnnFU this aint my highest dps skill 3 record is 38k, chain 1 over 20k and skill 4 2,8k each tick

As i said exploits (+ warrior support) are not balancing meters…..thank you….
also ele lacks a personal wall to place behind bosses unfortunately.

SoliSnake.9457:

a war cant do this!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRab_4rnnFU this aint my highest dps skill 3 record is 38k, chain 1 over 20k and skill 4 2,8k each tick

Funny how my guild group kills alpha much faster than that when I run my necro.

spoj.9672:

SoliSnake.9457:

a war cant do this!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRab_4rnnFU this aint my highest dps skill 3 record is 38k, chain 1 over 20k and skill 4 2,8k each tick

Funny how my guild group kills alpha much faster than that when I run my necro.

I was going to say something similar, but pointing out how slow they were just seems like piling on.

I do speed runs on my guardian(with 3 wars & 1 Mes). I Have 5 Min runs from mag blowing gate. Obviously you can manage 5-6mins runs on many different groups(full zerk), not just a 4 wars & 1 mes.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

spoj.9672:

SoliSnake.9457:

a war cant do this!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRab_4rnnFU this aint my highest dps skill 3 record is 38k, chain 1 over 20k and skill 4 2,8k each tick

Funny how my guild group kills alpha much faster than that when I run my necro.

I was going to say something similar, but pointing out how slow they were just seems like piling on.

like i said this aint my max dps (if you dont know how to read aint my fault) the video were just a example for the ele dps (normal run alpha is dead with 7-8 attack left on my gs if want to know) , but ofc a necro do more dps

again that is a well known combination of 2 bug abusing for Alpha… not dps…..
usually mods delete such things…..

P.S. i didn t report…just for when they will notice…

DanH.5879:

do i really really need to make an warrior/mesmer for pve !??!
any comments from a-net on this problem ?

Or a zerker Thief. Thiefs are always a golden addition to the Zerk Rush speedfarm.

SoliSnake.9457:

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

spoj.9672:

SoliSnake.9457:

a war cant do this!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRab_4rnnFU this aint my highest dps skill 3 record is 38k, chain 1 over 20k and skill 4 2,8k each tick

Funny how my guild group kills alpha much faster than that when I run my necro.

I was going to say something similar, but pointing out how slow they were just seems like piling on.

like i said this aint my max dps (if you dont know how to read aint my fault) the video were just a example for the ele dps (normal run alpha is dead with 7-8 attack left on my gs if want to know) , but ofc a necro do more dps

I was commenting on the team dps not yours. And a dagger horn necro can do comparable dps.

A fun fact is almost every class in full berserker gear with their best weapon set will do good enough dps to be viable. What sets them apart is the utility they bring doing said dps. Or dont bring as is the case of necros, eles or rangers.

Dub.1273:

Mesmer having decent dps? You consider extremely weak autoattacks and instant-death illusions are stong damage? I believe a GS warrior only using Hundret Blades (no autoattacks or other skills) will do more damage than a mesmer.

He said decent dps, not best or high dps.

Yes. And mesmer does not even bring decent dps in my opinion. Mesmer dps is nothing else but a joke.

Dub.1273:

Yes. And mesmer does not even bring decent dps in my opinion. Mesmer dps is nothing else but a joke.

Doing it wrong then. Mesmer does slightly less damage than most other classes in full beserker gear. Which is fair seeing as they have so much utility and timewarp.

Even so, id be happy to see all classes base damage buffed to be a little closer to warriors. Currently there is far too big a difference.

Mesmers do have decent DPS.

It’s just that Warrior’s DPS is out of whack, but guess what?
It’s the main point of the profession.

Not really a fair comparison.
(on the other hand, the party utility of a Mesmer is some hundreds of times better than the Warrior. Well, except the party utility “killing stuff”.)

Mesmers dps would be decent if they would deal as much damage as an unbuffed warrior. 3 War/1 Mes/1 Guardian would still be better than 4 Mes 1 Guard because of the group buffs (increasing damage by about 30%) but 4 Mesmer 1 Guardian would be an option to effectively go through content. Currently it is not.

Well, duh. There’s no point comparing any class to warrior’s DPS.
But if your mesmer is doing lower damage than “most other classes in full beserker gear”, it means you’re doing something wrong.

You have to take into account as well, mes isn’t just dpsing through hitting with her weapon, its also shattering clones which add a lot of burst dmg, and they’re very easy to quickly replenish.

Also mes has a ton of invuln sources with f4 and blurred frenzy so they can stay in melee range and keep swinging with sword

Threads like this are the reason I am going to laugh when CoF gets a work over like Ac.

The thief is not a bad class, its just unforgiving and well I wouldn’t be using those skills, I’d drop it to either Signet of Agility or Signet of Malice, and bring Shadowstep, I also kinda stopped using Shadow Refuge for Roll for Initiative.