Guild Wars 2

Wouldn’t it be nice to have practice raid mode? Here’s my suggestion for ‘’Practice Raid mode’’;

• There should be no trash mobs.
• There should only be raid boss with significantly reduced hp and damage so that even 5-man can complete it.
• Obviously no loot rewards.
• Boss mechanics should be the same as normal raid mode

This will not only help players whom are finding it difficult to get into raids because of exp difference and also veteran players to learn different roles in raids e.g. tanking at Xera, canon duty at sabetha etc.

What do you think?

Edit:

+ There should also be an option to skip to the boss you want practice. For example; if you want to practice Xera there should be an option to skip Escort, McLeod, and KC.

Edit2:

User Blaeys.3102 have summarised the main aim of this proposal very well:

The OP’s idea is about generating more interest in raiding – to ensure the game mode remains healthy and actually warrants continued long term development support.

Yes, the current raids are starting to get stale for a lot of raiders. That isn’t going to get better anytime soon. Unlike games like WoW where raids are the primary focus at end game, raids are just a small part of the GW2 developers endgame efforts (and will likely take a back seat to things like fractals and open world moving forward).

Long term, the only thing that will keep them alive is community support for the game mode – and that means getting more people involved in them. It can’t be the special club for a small group and expect to warrant large scale support.

Edit3:
I refer everyone to this raiding survey made by reddit user Mind101
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/4nvt7z/results_raiding_in_guildwars2_a_survey_on_your/

Approx. 2k players participated in the survey, and Mind101 summarised survey findings as follows;

What has kept people from trying out raids:
I have no GW2 raiding experience, and despite having the right ascended gear for it, people refuse to bring me along and I don’t get access/invited to guilds that do or might do learning parties.
It sounds like (from posts on places like Reddit) Raids require top-notch skill and equipment, and you are considered a hindrance if you don’t have both. That’s a bit intimidating…
I’m a casual, guildless player who doesn’t play often, and more importantly not regularly (maybe twice a month, when i can?). I wasn’t there at the beginning, and now, if I try to join a group, i can only try find pugs who are training for the raid. Those groups never fill. The other option is to join an “experienced group”, well, I’m not experienced, that would be a lack of respect for the other party if i were to join such a group.

Why people stopped raiding:
The gameplay is not fun at all since most of the time, you don’t even know what’s healing you or where damage comes from. You barely even have to dodge in order to survive. Raids in general don’t take advantage of GW2’s combat system in order to create fun, engaging gameplay. There are pretty much no exciting moments during a boss fight, so I tend to fall asleep before the boss is even finished.
[i]Bored of looking for a guild that I both have fun with and can raid with. I hate corner staking and skipping mobs in instances, finding such a guild not disgusted by raid is a bit hard.
Not out of choice – most of my friends quit the game due to the state of things and time differences are hard. I’’d love to get into it but am worried if I don’t have the ‘right’ gear or knowledge that I’ll be kicked from squad. Worried about the opinions of 9 other players and not letting the team down

Let’s get one thing straight, significant number of players want to raid but they feel exp barrier is impossible to overcome. The aim of this mode should be to help new raid players and to some extent low exp players to develop their team coordination and boss mechanics. This mode will help players to transition from new player-to-low exp-to-veteran player.
New players can go through all the boss mechanics in this mode due to significant damage reduction. If they can regularly practice boss mechanics it will improve squad coordination, player movements and correct skill execution. As a result it will improve the chances of successful boss kills in normal mode low exp raids.

It’s a lot of work to create multiple versions of an instance and it commits ANet to additional future work to make sure they can continue to deliver it after changing traits/skills, AI, etc. I’d rather they focus their limited resources on other aspects of the game.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

It’s a lot of work to create multiple versions of an instance and it commits ANet to additional future work to make sure they can continue to deliver it after changing traits/skills, AI, etc. I’d rather they focus their limited resources on other aspects of the game.

Bingo. The overhead here is massive for very little effective gain. If they start adding raid variants like this, it really cuts into their ability to deliver new content on a reasonable schedule.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

It’s a lot of work to create multiple versions of an instance and it commits ANet to additional future work to make sure they can continue to deliver it after changing traits/skills, AI, etc. I’d rather they focus their limited resources on other aspects of the game.

I think only Anet can speak to the amount of resources it would take. If a base system were implemented to accommodate something like this, it might actually be very little ongoing effort (again, no way to know).

To the OP, obviously I agree with the idea. Variable difficulties work well in other games – and would fit here as well. I do, however, think some minimal reward (even if it were as simple as champion bags) would be needed to encourage continued play and dev resources.

So just explain this to me.
Why people that want another mode, be it training or easy mode, are not clearing W3 scort every week?
Scort is easy, no enrage timer, you can go with literally any build, have top rewards ( chance of ascended and MS and LI ) , you dont need to another encounter before it.. hmm… strange.
If people dont do scort why they would do a easier mode VG with worst rewards for example as if they would make an easier VG it would be like scort tops on difficulty ( if not still a little harder )?
You see people that dont raid dont wanna raid, stop wanting to waste resources on a dead end.

@OP:

I’m against your ideas. You will find reasons in this thread:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Different-Raid-Difficulty-Would-Satisfy-Most/

I think there is no need to discuss it further from my point of view.

OnizukaBR.8537:

So just explain this to me.
Why people that want another mode, be it training or easy mode, are not clearing W3 scort every week?
Scort is easy, no enrage timer, you can go with literally any build, have top rewards ( chance of ascended and MS and LI ) , you dont need to another encounter before it.. hmm… strange.
If people dont do scort why they would do a easier mode VG with worst rewards for example as if they would make an easier VG it would be like scort tops on difficulty ( if not still a little harder )?
You see people that dont raid dont wanna raid, stop wanting to waste resources on a dead end.

You’re assuming that they are not. I know a few groups that do that raid encounter – and only that encounter – each week.

Also, this is quite a bit off the mark that the OP was trying to make. Practicing/experiencing the escort event has nothing to do with practicing/experiencing Matthias or Slothasor or Gorseval.

Variable difficulty works well in other games (as well as in fractals in this game) – offering what the OP is asking for, while also providing more accessibility to a wider range of players. I think it would work well here too.

Anka.5086:

Wouldn’t it be nice to have practice raid mode? Here’s my suggestion for ‘’Practice Raid mode’’;

• There should be no trash mobs.
• There should only be raid boss with significantly reduced hp and damage so that even 5-man can complete it.
• Obviously no loot rewards.
• Boss mechanics should be the same as normal raid mode

This will not only help players whom are finding it difficult to get into raids because of exp difference and also veteran players to learn different roles in raids e.g. tanking at Xera, canon duty at sabetha etc.

What do you think?

Edit:

+ There should also be an option to skip to the boss you want practice. For example; if you want to practice Xera there should be an option to skip Escort, McLeod, and KC.

If you want to practice, why can’t you do so in normal mode?

And I agree there should be some way to select raid bosses.

While I would like a practice mode I would rather ANet not waste resources developing one. Its much better in the long run to practice on the real thing.

OnizukaBR.8537:

So just explain this to me.
Why people that want another mode, be it training or easy mode, are not clearing W3 scort every week?
Scort is easy, no enrage timer, you can go with literally any build, have top rewards ( chance of ascended and MS and LI ) , you dont need to another encounter before it.. hmm… strange.
If people dont do scort why they would do a easier mode VG with worst rewards for example as if they would make an easier VG it would be like scort tops on difficulty ( if not still a little harder )?
You see people that dont raid dont wanna raid, stop wanting to waste resources on a dead end.

My biggest fear is after sometime most Veteran raiders may stop raiding once they achieve their goals e.g. achievements/ legendary armor etc. If it does happen we will need new players to replace them otherwise we’re going to have difficult time organising raids and raiding may end up being obsolete as player participation goes down. If we reach that point I fear we will have no more new content for raids.

I believe we need to have a system that allows new raiders the chance to practice raid mechanics in an environment that doesn’t blame them and discourage them from raiding. This will also keep raiding population at reasonable levels so that devs will be encouraged to continue to develop raids over the coming years.

If raids lose popularity Anet will take care and turn them down (not before several new ones are out) a.k.a. making them easier. At the moment this is not the case so there is no need to take action.

It makes sense (always has, imo) to extend the experience and get more people involved now. Not only will it justify more dev resources, it will help fill in content droughts and most likely increase the number of hardcore raiders by giving raiders previously reticent a feel for the fun raiding can offer (training and encouraging them to move on to harder content).

Vinceman.4572:

If raids lose popularity Anet will take care and turn them down (not before several new ones are out) a.k.a. making them easier. At the moment this is not the case so there is no need to take action.

Mini Liadri the Concealing Dark. It took me 3 days to get that mini. That achievement was a pain in the a**e. But the satisfaction that I felt overcoming that challenge was well worth that 3 day attempt.
If they start making raids easier I think those original group of players ANet was thinking when designing raids will be discouraged even more and after that everything will just go down hill. Most of us want raids to be on Anet’s top of the list agenda. And the only way to do that is to increase player participation not reduce them even more. Give players the tools to fill that gap between non-exp raider and exp raider.

The real question is : What is so difficult in the raid right now that needs an extra mode to overcome?
I mean the encounters are already ramping up in term of difficulty during the phases so normally once you get the basic mechanics of P1, you jump to P2 and learn the new added mechanics and so on.
Why have an easy mode to learn P3 if one is not able to go past P1?

Blaeys.3102:

training and encouraging them to move on to harder content

This is what their fractal rebalance project is trying to do.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Blaeys.3102:

training and encouraging them to move on to harder content

This is what their fractal rebalance project is trying to do.

There will always be a reticence to jump from fractals to raids because raids define difficulty differently than fractals do (for example, no enrage timers or hard tanking requirements in fractals – among a range of other differences), so, while that system will help people move from Tier 1 to Tier 4 fractals, it doesn’t really apply to raids. They remain two separate game modes played differently.

Fractals are actually a good model for them to emulate in raids (just not the agony part, of course). Tiered content is played at all tiers (as seen in fractals and other games) and can be used to train encourage interest in higher difficulty versions within the same game mode.

Additionally, the change to fractals really doesn’t address the OP’s issue regarding training on specific bosses to learn/experience the mechanics in a stepping stone style of progression.

Blaeys.3102:

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Blaeys.3102:

training and encouraging them to move on to harder content

This is what their fractal rebalance project is trying to do.

There will always be a reticence to jump from fractals to raids because raids define difficulty differently than fractals do (for example, no enrage timers or hard tanking requirements in fractals – among a range of other differences), so, while that system will help people move from Tier 1 to Tier 4 fractals, it doesn’t really apply to raids. They remain two separate game modes played differently.

Fractals are actually a good model for them to emulate in raids (just not the agony part, of course). Tiered content is played at all tiers (as seen in fractals and other games) and can be used to train encourage interest in higher difficulty versions within the same game mode.

Additionally, the change to fractals really doesn’t address the OP’s issue regarding training on specific bosses to learn/experience the mechanics in a stepping stone style of progression.

If you think things like Swamp T4 doesnt prepare people to raids,then easy mode raid will be even worst, it will not prepare people, and will make people create bad habits on raids. T4 hard fractals is the best thing as stepping stone/training, not easier/ignorable easy mode raids mechanics.

Pros of fractals as a stepping stone to raids:
- It’s different content, giving players an opportunity to play both fractals and raids
- Their reward structures are separate
- If a player is not interested in fractals or raids, they still can play the other

Cons of a training mode:
- There’s no reason why players can’t train now (I see training runs in lfg and guild all the time)
- The mode, by design, has little replay value
- Anet would need to develop the mode for the current bosses and all future bosses
- It provides no value to those who can raid or those who don’t want to raid.
- That is, and not to be too snarky, but it’s only for players who can’t handle failure/challenge of a normal raid
- Some raids are much easier than others and can serve as a stepping stone
- Training mode will not train if it’s too easy

OnizukaBR.8537:

Blaeys.3102:

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Blaeys.3102:

training and encouraging them to move on to harder content

This is what their fractal rebalance project is trying to do.

There will always be a reticence to jump from fractals to raids because raids define difficulty differently than fractals do (for example, no enrage timers or hard tanking requirements in fractals – among a range of other differences), so, while that system will help people move from Tier 1 to Tier 4 fractals, it doesn’t really apply to raids. They remain two separate game modes played differently.

Fractals are actually a good model for them to emulate in raids (just not the agony part, of course). Tiered content is played at all tiers (as seen in fractals and other games) and can be used to train encourage interest in higher difficulty versions within the same game mode.

Additionally, the change to fractals really doesn’t address the OP’s issue regarding training on specific bosses to learn/experience the mechanics in a stepping stone style of progression.

If you think things like Swamp T4 doesnt prepare people to raids,then easy mode raid will be even worst, it will not prepare people, and will make people create bad habits on raids. T4 hard fractals is the best thing as stepping stone/training, not easier/ignorable easy mode raids mechanics.

The issue with fractals has nothing to do with difficulty. It has to do with mechanics. Fractals and raids are completely separate game modes imo.

And I disagree that a tiered system would instill bad habits. There are many ways to learn. Incremental experiential learning works exactly like the OP discusses – it teaches the mechanics and then asks you to up your game at the next level (this is the one thing the raiding system could take from fractals).

Alternatively, the current system requires repeated failure to encourage improvement. While that system can be effective, it also results in attrition as many people just get frustrated and move on to other things (which isn’t good for the future of raids).

The idea that a tiered system will instill bad habits is provably false, as it is a system used successfully, not only in other games (as well as this one in fractals), but in many real life examples as well.

Anectodal evidence also shows that lower tiers would be replayed, just as Tier 1 fractals and lower tier raids in other games remain popular even as the top ends of those content flourish.

Ranael.6423:

The real question is : What is so difficult in the raid right now that needs an extra mode to overcome?
I mean the encounters are already ramping up in term of difficulty during the phases so normally once you get the basic mechanics of P1, you jump to P2 and learn the new added mechanics and so on.
Why have an easy mode to learn P3 if one is not able to go past P1?

Let’s go scientific!

• Link to Survey made by Mind101 reddit user;
  https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/4nvt7z/results_raiding_in_guildwars2_a_survey_on_your/

I’m going to copy and paste his highlights of the survey;

What has kept people from trying out raids:
I have no GW2 raiding experience, and despite having the right ascended gear for it, people refuse to bring me along and I don’t get access/invited to guilds that do or might do learning parties.
It sounds like (from posts on places like Reddit) Raids require top-notch skill and equipment, and you are considered a hindrance if you don’t have both. That’s a bit intimidating…
I’m a casual, guildless player who doesn’t play often, and more importantly not regularly (maybe twice a month, when i can?). I wasn’t there at the beginning, and now, if I try to join a group, i can only try find pugs who are training for the raid. Those groups never fill. The other option is to join an “experienced group”, well, I’m not experienced, that would be a lack of respect for the other party if i were to join such a group.

Why people stopped raiding:
The gameplay is not fun at all since most of the time, you don’t even know what’s healing you or where damage comes from. You barely even have to dodge in order to survive. Raids in general don’t take advantage of GW2’s combat system in order to create fun, engaging gameplay. There are pretty much no exciting moments during a boss fight, so I tend to fall asleep before the boss is even finished.
Bored of looking for a guild that I both have fun with and can raid with. I hate corner staking and skipping mobs in instances, finding such a guild not disgusted by raid is a bit hard.
Not out of choice – most of my friends quit the game due to the state of things and time differences are hard. I’’d love to get into it but am worried if I don’t have the ‘right’ gear or knowledge that I’ll be kicked from squad. Worried about the opinions of 9 other players and not letting the team down.

From that survey we can see that players that are willing to raid feel their lack of raid exp, general lack of coordination and know-how in pug groups are putting them off from actively participating in raids. Therefore, it might be a good idea to have some system in place for those new players to practice boss mechanic and improve raid coordination.

Blaeys.3102:

The issue with fractals has nothing to do with difficulty. It has to do with mechanics.

Raid mechanics are very basic. They even put some of them in to an open world and chaos fractal. The only reason why we don’t see more raid mechanics in fractals is because they just started to release their stuff.

Just allowing players the option to start the fight at any phase would be adequate for a practice mode. This way groups can work on the parts they are weak on without having to go through 5 minutes of other stuff every time, and it also doesn’t require the fight to be modified so it is easier to develop. In terms of practicing for the actual raid fight there is way less utility in fighting against a weakened version of the boss.

That said, I don’t think a practice mode is really necessary considering the current (low) difficulty level of the 9 raid fights. And even if they were more difficult, I wouldn’t want to see a practice mode implemented on new raids until a long time after their release.

Anka.5086:

OnizukaBR.8537:

So just explain this to me.
Why people that want another mode, be it training or easy mode, are not clearing W3 scort every week?
Scort is easy, no enrage timer, you can go with literally any build, have top rewards ( chance of ascended and MS and LI ) , you dont need to another encounter before it.. hmm… strange.
If people dont do scort why they would do a easier mode VG with worst rewards for example as if they would make an easier VG it would be like scort tops on difficulty ( if not still a little harder )?
You see people that dont raid dont wanna raid, stop wanting to waste resources on a dead end.

My biggest fear is after sometime most Veteran raiders may stop raiding once they achieve their goals e.g. achievements/ legendary armor etc. If it does happen we will need new players to replace them otherwise we’re going to have difficult time organising raids and raiding may end up being obsolete as player participation goes down. If we reach that point I fear we will have no more new content for raids.

I believe we need to have a system that allows new raiders the chance to practice raid mechanics in an environment that doesn’t blame them and discourage them from raiding. This will also keep raiding population at reasonable levels so that devs will be encouraged to continue to develop raids over the coming years.

Most veteran raiders would raid even if there was no legendary armor. In fact they essentially already do because most veteran raiders are far past the legendary armor LI requirement. While I would argue that the raid rewards in general are a little low, people will keep coming back for magnetite (which is super valuable) and a chance at ascended gear with expensive stat sets as long as those are needed.

The thing that would really drive away veteran raiders would be if new raids stop coming out. Forsaken thicket is great but the novelty has of course long since worn off and there isn’t much in the game that presents a comparable challenge (besides solo / low man stuff).

Anka.5086:

Ranael.6423:

The real question is : What is so difficult in the raid right now that needs an extra mode to overcome?
I mean the encounters are already ramping up in term of difficulty during the phases so normally once you get the basic mechanics of P1, you jump to P2 and learn the new added mechanics and so on.
Why have an easy mode to learn P3 if one is not able to go past P1?

Let’s go scientific!

• Link to Survey made by Mind101 reddit user;
  https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/4nvt7z/results_raiding_in_guildwars2_a_survey_on_your/

I’m going to copy and paste his highlights of the survey;

What has kept people from trying out raids:
I have no GW2 raiding experience, and despite having the right ascended gear for it, people refuse to bring me along and I don’t get access/invited to guilds that do or might do learning parties.
It sounds like (from posts on places like Reddit) Raids require top-notch skill and equipment, and you are considered a hindrance if you don’t have both. That’s a bit intimidating…
I’m a casual, guildless player who doesn’t play often, and more importantly not regularly (maybe twice a month, when i can?). I wasn’t there at the beginning, and now, if I try to join a group, i can only try find pugs who are training for the raid. Those groups never fill. The other option is to join an “experienced group”, well, I’m not experienced, that would be a lack of respect for the other party if i were to join such a group.

Why people stopped raiding:
The gameplay is not fun at all since most of the time, you don’t even know what’s healing you or where damage comes from. You barely even have to dodge in order to survive. Raids in general don’t take advantage of GW2’s combat system in order to create fun, engaging gameplay. There are pretty much no exciting moments during a boss fight, so I tend to fall asleep before the boss is even finished.
Bored of looking for a guild that I both have fun with and can raid with. I hate corner staking and skipping mobs in instances, finding such a guild not disgusted by raid is a bit hard.
Not out of choice – most of my friends quit the game due to the state of things and time differences are hard. I’’d love to get into it but am worried if I don’t have the ‘right’ gear or knowledge that I’ll be kicked from squad. Worried about the opinions of 9 other players and not letting the team down.

From that survey we can see that players that are willing to raid feel their lack of raid exp, general lack of coordination and know-how in pug groups are putting them off from actively participating in raids. Therefore, it might be a good idea to have some system in place for those new players to practice boss mechanic and improve raid coordination.

I think this is very important – and telling, especially since the information comes from a source other than the raiding subforum (which has always, understandably, been a little lopsided).

I think some people are worried that any changes would mean they will lose their challenging content.

That simply doesn’t have to be the case. The OP’s idea is about generating more interest in raiding – to ensure the game mode remains healthy and actually warrants continued long term development support.

Yes, the current raids are starting to get stale for a lot of raiders. That isn’t going to get better anytime soon. Unlike games like WoW where raids are the primary focus at end game, raids are just a small part of the GW2 developers endgame efforts (and will likely take a back seat to things like fractals and open world moving forward).

Long term, the only thing that will keep them alive is community support for the game mode – and that means getting more people involved in them. It can’t be the special club for a small group and expect to warrant large scale support.

Dinosaurs.8674:

Just allowing players the option to start the fight at any phase would be adequate for a practice mode. This way groups can work on the parts they are weak on without having to go through 5 minutes of other stuff every time, and it also doesn’t require the fight to be modified so it is easier to develop. In terms of practicing for the actual raid fight there is way less utility in fighting against a weakened version of the boss.

Now that’s neat. Would be a great addition to dps golem.

Blaeys.3102:

Anka.5086:

Ranael.6423:

The real question is : What is so difficult in the raid right now that needs an extra mode to overcome?
I mean the encounters are already ramping up in term of difficulty during the phases so normally once you get the basic mechanics of P1, you jump to P2 and learn the new added mechanics and so on.
Why have an easy mode to learn P3 if one is not able to go past P1?

Let’s go scientific!

• Link to Survey made by Mind101 reddit user;
  https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/4nvt7z/results_raiding_in_guildwars2_a_survey_on_your/

I’m going to copy and paste his highlights of the survey;

What has kept people from trying out raids:
I have no GW2 raiding experience, and despite having the right ascended gear for it, people refuse to bring me along and I don’t get access/invited to guilds that do or might do learning parties.
It sounds like (from posts on places like Reddit) Raids require top-notch skill and equipment, and you are considered a hindrance if you don’t have both. That’s a bit intimidating…
I’m a casual, guildless player who doesn’t play often, and more importantly not regularly (maybe twice a month, when i can?). I wasn’t there at the beginning, and now, if I try to join a group, i can only try find pugs who are training for the raid. Those groups never fill. The other option is to join an “experienced group”, well, I’m not experienced, that would be a lack of respect for the other party if i were to join such a group.

Why people stopped raiding:
The gameplay is not fun at all since most of the time, you don’t even know what’s healing you or where damage comes from. You barely even have to dodge in order to survive. Raids in general don’t take advantage of GW2’s combat system in order to create fun, engaging gameplay. There are pretty much no exciting moments during a boss fight, so I tend to fall asleep before the boss is even finished.
Bored of looking for a guild that I both have fun with and can raid with. I hate corner staking and skipping mobs in instances, finding such a guild not disgusted by raid is a bit hard.
Not out of choice – most of my friends quit the game due to the state of things and time differences are hard. I’’d love to get into it but am worried if I don’t have the ‘right’ gear or knowledge that I’ll be kicked from squad. Worried about the opinions of 9 other players and not letting the team down.

From that survey we can see that players that are willing to raid feel their lack of raid exp, general lack of coordination and know-how in pug groups are putting them off from actively participating in raids. Therefore, it might be a good idea to have some system in place for those new players to practice boss mechanic and improve raid coordination.

I think this is very important – and telling, especially since the information comes from a source other than the raiding subforum (which has always, understandably, been a little lopsided).

I think some people are worried that any changes would mean they will lose their challenging content.

That simply doesn’t have to be the case. The OP’s idea is about generating more interest in raiding – to ensure the game mode remains healthy and actually warrants continued long term development support.

Yes, the current raids are starting to get stale for a lot of raiders. That isn’t going to get better anytime soon. Unlike games like WoW where raids are the primary focus at end game, raids are just a small part of the GW2 developers endgame efforts (and will likely take a back seat to things like fractals and open world moving forward).

Long term, the only thing that will keep them alive is community support for the game mode – and that means getting more people involved in them. It can’t be the special club for a small group and expect to warrant large scale support.

It is very easy to cherry pick someone who supports your opinion.

Raiding as a beginner, thoughts, suggestions and an overall assessment of attitude & mentality

Tldr of the post: From the perspective of a new raider, would-be raiders only have themselves to blame for not raiding.

I wont pretend the posters opinion was not controversial (with the top post suggesting a training mode), but the OP’s post is at +103.

No one wants a special club. But there’s not much stopping would-be raiders from raiding.

Anka.5086:

From that survey we can see that players that are willing to raid feel their lack of raid exp, general lack of coordination and know-how in pug groups are putting them off from actively participating in raids. Therefore, it might be a good idea to have some system in place for those new players to practice boss mechanic and improve raid coordination.

Following the logic of “I fear to go in raid because I have never done” the next step will be to have an Easy Easy mode to let people practice for the Easy mode…..
No raider is magically experienced, everyone has to try and do mistakes before feeling experienced.
If one want to practice boss mechanics, P1 of most encounter gives a good flavor without adding too many layers. If one want to improve coordination, it is better to find people to play with because coordination involve several people. If you find like minded people, you learn as a group, practice as a group…

An easy mode will not improve social skills. If people don’t raid because they are scared from others, this will be the same with easy raid.
If anything this survey (for what it worth…I would not call the audience representative) does not show that raids are actually too hard, only 6 % of non raiding people answering the survey say they don’t raid because it is too challenging….

Blaeys.3102:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

It’s a lot of work to create multiple versions of an instance and it commits ANet to additional future work to make sure they can continue to deliver it after changing traits/skills, AI, etc. I’d rather they focus their limited resources on other aspects of the game.

I think only Anet can speak to the amount of resources it would take. If a base system were implemented to accommodate something like this, it might actually be very little ongoing effort (again, no way to know).

They have spoken about it (in other contexts).

Anka.5086:

Mini Liadri the Concealing Dark. It took me 3 days to get that mini. That achievement was a pain in the a**e. But the satisfaction that I felt overcoming that challenge was well worth that 3 day attempt.
If they start making raids easier I think those original group of players ANet was thinking when designing raids will be discouraged even more and after that everything will just go down hill. Most of us want raids to be on Anet’s top of the list agenda. And the only way to do that is to increase player participation not reduce them even more. Give players the tools to fill that gap between non-exp raider and exp raider.

You haven’t understood. I was saying that if some days raids will lose popularity Anet will make them easier and/or increase the rewards. Look at dungeon powercreep and several open world things in the past.
Forsaken Thicket will lose attractiveness and a practice mode won’t change that. While I want to see more challenging content like the 3 wings we already have I don’t think the current ones will be primary playing target of the raid playerbase in the next 2 years or if still played they are like accessory parts. A thing to grind for some shards/asc stuff/bad stuff.
The 9 encounters already became boring to me and I agree to Dinosaurs:

Forsaken thicket is great but the novelty has of course long since worn off and there isn’t much in the game that presents a comparable challenge (besides solo / low man stuff).

To implement a practice mode almost one year after release of wing 1 would be a farce and absurd.

Vinceman.4572:

To implement a practice mode almost one year after release of wing 1 would be a farce and absurd.

Not at all if the goal is to encourage greater interest in raiding and extend the experience to a larger audience. Not really a unique idea or practice either.

I agree that the best step might be to actually start with the next raid though. Going in with the practice and system would likely be easier than retrofitting one.

Here we go again…

If you are practicing against a version of a boss with detoothed mechanics, you are not practicing against the boss. You have no way of knowing which mechanics are important on a detoothed boss.

Why do you need a special practice mode when you can just practice in the existing raid mode?

Sarrs.4831:

Here we go again…

If you are practicing against a version of a boss with detoothed mechanics, you are not practicing against the boss. You have no way of knowing which mechanics are important on a detoothed boss.

Why do you need a special practice mode when you can just practice in the existing raid mode?

I actually talked about the reasoning a few posts higher – https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Practice-Raid-mode/first#post6320834

The OP has also made a few strong points supporting this.

For me, though, the reason extends beyond just allowing for training, however. It is also about bringing new blood into the game mode to justify continued resource investment, build up more people to play with (at all levels) and just plain give more people something fun to do.

It will not give new blood in the mode. It will only create another sub-community of people playing only practice mode.
Worst case scenario it will comfort many players in a behaviour of not questioning themselves about their skill.
I experienced the LFR release in WoW and while the ususal raiders farmed their stuff in low tier, few players made the opposite shift. And for those ones, it was impossible to tell them that they were doing mistakes because their answer was always " don’t tell me what to do I am experienced on this boss, I know the mechanics". What they failed to see is that some mechanics were becoming lethal in the non practice mode.

In GW2 it would generate a lot of players going in normal raid and complaining they got kicked by elitists because they were full PVT exo while they are able to do pracice mode with such gear. In fact it would be the same ones saying today " Yeah but I’ve seen videos of people beating the raid in full exo so stop requiring ascended".

Just as an FYI.

Before the other thread was closed, a new poster created a really interesting take on what I believe is a more sensible solution and middleground: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Different-Raid-Difficulty-Would-Satisfy-Most/page/17#post6319985

The merit of the proposal which consists of a few posts is that maybe not for Forsaken Thicket, but future raids could deliver different ‘paths’ in the same instance that have different encounters. One path might be strictly easy bosses in other words.

This is actually not a bad idea.

Sykper.6583:

Just as an FYI.

Before the other thread was closed, a new poster created a really interesting take on what I believe is a more sensible solution and middleground: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Different-Raid-Difficulty-Would-Satisfy-Most/page/17#post6319985

The merit of the proposal which consists of a few posts is that maybe not for Forsaken Thicket, but future raids could deliver different ‘paths’ in the same instance that have different encounters. One path might be strictly easy bosses in other words.

This is actually not a bad idea.

This would be a step in the right direction (and is definitely a good sign in that people are willing to consider compromise).

I worry that this might actually take more work than implementing a true tiered difficulty system, though, due to new character models, mechanic designs, etc. It is something worth considering, however. Depending on how the developers did it, it might be the right level of compromise for all involved (only the developers have insight into how it might work).

I think raid one was a good start, but it was far from what it needs to be. With a little creativity and effort, I think they can develop a raid that meets the playstyles of multiple groups without watering down the challenge they are trying to provide. Anet is known for innovative solutions (this game is built on many of them). It’s time to use that creativity and innovation in moving raids to the next step (which, imo, has to be more inclusive).

Blaeys.3102:

Sykper.6583:

Just as an FYI.

Before the other thread was closed, a new poster created a really interesting take on what I believe is a more sensible solution and middleground: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Different-Raid-Difficulty-Would-Satisfy-Most/page/17#post6319985

The merit of the proposal which consists of a few posts is that maybe not for Forsaken Thicket, but future raids could deliver different ‘paths’ in the same instance that have different encounters. One path might be strictly easy bosses in other words.

This is actually not a bad idea.

This would be a step in the right direction (and is definitely a good sign in that people are willing to consider compromise).

I worry that this might actually take more work than implementing a true tiered difficulty system, though, due to new character models, mechanic designs, etc. It is something worth considering, however. Depending on how the developers did it, it might be the right level of compromise for all involved (only the developers have insight into how it might work).

I think raid one was a good start, but it was far from what it needs to be. With a little creativity and effort, I think they can develop a raid that meets the playstyles of multiple groups without watering down the challenge they are trying to provide. Anet is known for innovative solutions (this game is built on many of them). It’s time to use that creativity and innovation in moving raids to the next step (which, imo, has to be more inclusive).

As you have said, you have no idea how much work would be involved. It’s impossible to judge whether a tiered system is easier versus a raid based on path systems, kind of like how old Dungeon Explorables would work.

Another thing to consider that with this method, providing branches as opposed to a linear format, is that the difficulty does not need to be impacted. Being an ‘easy path’ one difficulty simply means the bosses in that avenue can still be the same level of challenge we have now from say Escort and Trio.

It’s much more accommodating to all than subjecting different tiered instances where it would be far too much work attempting to make an easy-mode instance actually train those raiders on the normal mode. I would say that is just an impossibility.

As an FYI, people keep bringing up LFR as if it somehow resolved all easy-mode solutions, the mechanics of the fights are actually ignored outright. For instance raid boss attacks that would normally force a tank swap in the normal encounter are negligible in the LFR version. And players in there are woefully unprepared for the actual normal difficulty encounters, it’s just a loot fiesta under the pretext of being raiding. You can agree that if that sort of solution was implemented in GW2 would be counter-productive no?

Sykper.6583:

As an FYI, people keep bringing up LFR as if it somehow resolved all easy-mode solutions, the mechanics of the fights are actually ignored outright. For instance raid boss attacks that would normally force a tank swap in the normal encounter are negligible in the LFR version. And players in there are woefully unprepared for the actual normal difficulty encounters, it’s just a loot fiesta under the pretext of being raiding. You can agree that if that sort of solution was implemented in GW2 would be counter-productive no?

I don’t really see people pointing to LFR as a viable example of what this thread is about – and I am definitely not talking about adding something like LFR raids from WoW – that would be too watered down for GW2. Mechanics would still need to be part of the fight.

I would look at something like the OPs example of scaling the fights down to 5 people or the example I used in another thread (remove enrage and heavy dps reliant mechanics, then add a bronze, silver, gold reward system). It’s also likely that neither of these is the right solution. Anet is good at innovation and moving away from the MMO norm. Surely they could come up with a unique solution that rivals anything we could dream up here.

Now, if they did come up with an easily scalable system, I could see something faceroll being part of it solely for the very casual players, but that isn’t really what this thread is about.

There is already a practice raid mode implemented. Its called full heal (magi) tempest.
Just 2 days ago I helped a training group at mathias, we diceded to ignore inrage timer and just out heal it. So we slotted a good full heal druid and a full heal tempest. The kill took 12 min. So WAY into inrage, but so what ^^

Blaeys.3102:

Sykper.6583:

As an FYI, people keep bringing up LFR as if it somehow resolved all easy-mode solutions, the mechanics of the fights are actually ignored outright. For instance raid boss attacks that would normally force a tank swap in the normal encounter are negligible in the LFR version. And players in there are woefully unprepared for the actual normal difficulty encounters, it’s just a loot fiesta under the pretext of being raiding. You can agree that if that sort of solution was implemented in GW2 would be counter-productive no?

I don’t really see people pointing to LFR as a viable example of what this thread is about – and I am definitely not talking about adding something like LFR raids from WoW – that would be too watered down for GW2. Mechanics would still need to be part of the fight.

I would look at something like the OPs example of scaling the fights down to 5 people or the example I used in another thread (remove enrage and heavy dps reliant mechanics, then add a bronze, silver, gold reward system). It’s also likely that neither of these is the right solution. Anet is good at innovation and moving away from the MMO norm. Surely they could come up with a unique solution that rivals anything we could dream up here.

Now, if they did come up with an easily scalable system, I could see something faceroll being part of it solely for the very casual players, but that isn’t really what this thread is about.

That’s the issue though Blaeys. You acknowledge that we can’t have something like the LFR system WoW put into place, yet the ‘scalable’ raid difficulty you speak of needs to accommodate even players running around in their most comfortable armor and stats, regardless of what they be. That’s what is making this so painful, you are effectively telling Arenanet to come up with a difficulty setting that doesn’t trivialize the mechanics too much, yet allows anyone running their most comfortable gear and traits and builds, form up a 10 or maybe even a 5 man setting, and still do this mode and learn about what it will take to do the normal mode.

I don’t mean to insult the devs here, they have done a fantastic job with the first iteration of raiding with the first raid ever in GW2. But what you ask of them is something so insanely improbable on so many factors from not just what the players might be utilizing but what the boss is supposed to do, that it’s not just a matter of toning down the numbers it is ‘Can this easy-mode sustain itself’.

Rather than go through the dozen or so metrics I myself can conceive would make this easy-mode problematic, why not consider the option of having raid wings have paths as suggested and populate them with varied encounters of different difficulties? The easy-mode trio would be the same as the normal-mode trio, however the normal path would adjust for more bosses, which are significantly harder than previously.

Honestly, the best advice I would say to the devs is to truly make the encounters get progressively harder. Spirit Vale and Stronghold of the Faithful do this, Salvation Pass somehow has Slothasor before Trio…who knows why?

Sykper.6583:

Blaeys.3102:

Sykper.6583:

As an FYI, people keep bringing up LFR as if it somehow resolved all easy-mode solutions, the mechanics of the fights are actually ignored outright. For instance raid boss attacks that would normally force a tank swap in the normal encounter are negligible in the LFR version. And players in there are woefully unprepared for the actual normal difficulty encounters, it’s just a loot fiesta under the pretext of being raiding. You can agree that if that sort of solution was implemented in GW2 would be counter-productive no?

I don’t really see people pointing to LFR as a viable example of what this thread is about – and I am definitely not talking about adding something like LFR raids from WoW – that would be too watered down for GW2. Mechanics would still need to be part of the fight.

I would look at something like the OPs example of scaling the fights down to 5 people or the example I used in another thread (remove enrage and heavy dps reliant mechanics, then add a bronze, silver, gold reward system). It’s also likely that neither of these is the right solution. Anet is good at innovation and moving away from the MMO norm. Surely they could come up with a unique solution that rivals anything we could dream up here.

Now, if they did come up with an easily scalable system, I could see something faceroll being part of it solely for the very casual players, but that isn’t really what this thread is about.

That’s the issue though Blaeys. You acknowledge that we can’t have something like the LFR system WoW put into place, yet the ‘scalable’ raid difficulty you speak of needs to accommodate even players running around in their most comfortable armor and stats, regardless of what they be. That’s what is making this so painful, you are effectively telling Arenanet to come up with a difficulty setting that doesn’t trivialize the mechanics too much, yet allows anyone running their most comfortable gear and traits and builds, form up a 10 or maybe even a 5 man setting, and still do this mode and learn about what it will take to do the normal mode.

I don’t mean to insult the devs here, they have done a fantastic job with the first iteration of raiding with the first raid ever in GW2. But what you ask of them is something so insanely improbable on so many factors from not just what the players might be utilizing but what the boss is supposed to do, that it’s not just a matter of toning down the numbers it is ‘Can this easy-mode sustain itself’.

Rather than go through the dozen or so metrics I myself can conceive would make this easy-mode problematic, why not consider the option of having raid wings have paths as suggested and populate them with varied encounters of different difficulties? The easy-mode trio would be the same as the normal-mode trio, however the normal path would adjust for more bosses, which are significantly harder than previously.

Honestly, the best advice I would say to the devs is to truly make the encounters get progressively harder. Spirit Vale and Stronghold of the Faithful do this, Salvation Pass somehow has Slothasor before Trio…who knows why?

I didn’t say we couldn’t have it. I said it really doesn’t address the OP’s issue. In reality, something like LFR would probably work well – just not as a training mode. It would work to address the accessibility issue for more casual players. I just think more would probably be needed.

The issue with raids in their current form, imo, really is that they discourage playstyle diversity. Multiple or flexible difficulties would address that – while still retaining the higher end challenges.

And it is definitely not as problematic as you imply. Other raiding games do this very well. My understanding is that WoW has even implemented flex raiding that scales to party size now – and from what friends tell me, it is easier without being faceroll.

There are several ways they could go about this. They could implement variable paths the way other games do. They could implement training motes that tone down damage and stats. They could allow groups of more than 10 to enter the instance, giving players control over how easy they want to make it. They could scale the bosses down for 5 man parties as the OP recommends. They could remove the enrage/heavy dps requirements (allowing for players to create their own “easy mode” through survivability armor). Or they could come up with something creative we haven’t thought of.

There is definitely precedent – both in other games (I think WoW has 4 or five difficulty levels now, as an example) and in GW2 (fractal levels). Yes, these would take developer resources. Without knowing what those requirement might be, I can only say I think it would be worth it – and I’m positive it would be good for the game – and for raiding.

Training mode wouldn’t really work – you can just look at Unbound Guardian in Bloodstone Fen for an example.

People there don’t really go to greens, don’t dodge blues, don’t care about seekers and half the time don’t break the bar. When the mechanics are ignorable (as would be the case here in a dumbed down training mode), they will get ignored.

It’ll be a waste of resources making a training mode as is suggested in the OP.

Blaeys.3102:

Vinceman.4572:

To implement a practice mode almost one year after release of wing 1 would be a farce and absurd.

Not at all if the goal is to encourage greater interest in raiding and extend the experience to a larger audience.

Yes at all. You don’t encourage greater interest in raiding with easy/practice modes. People will try, most of them succeed and still fail to succeed the current raids due to real life time issues, unable to use the lfg like they are since years what we have seen during dungeon high peak, unwilling to change their gear after beating the easy/practice version of VG/other bosses and many more.

Your wish is, you want to bring the audience of Tarir multi loot, Cursed Shore farming, Silverwaste and Bloodstone Fenn grinding to raids. You don’t want to bring any alley cats to raids that are around on other places in Tyria – these are rare species. You are speaking of the exact people I mention because in PvE there is no any other significant target group in between. The problem of these people is, they want max loot, not fun to kill raid bosses etc.
So, the main issue that rests is they would try such an easy mode, run it if it’s worth compared to Tarir and others. If that’s true rewards have to be increased like hell and as well much more for the current mode. I think we can agree Anet would never do that, not even in our dreams.
On the other hand if the rewards aren’t worth compared to the farm maps people would play practice/easy mode once and then leave it while it suffers a horrible death.

Blaeys.3102

The issue with raids in their current form, imo, really is that they discourage playstyle diversity

yeah. they discourage lazy playstyles such as fulltank, and encourage players to improve their playstyle and get better.

if you want to practice raids… go into the raids and practice!

or practice in other game modes by playing something that is not faceroll. do some solodungeons or other fun stuff that improves your playstyle. basically you can play anything and create yourself a challenge. play open world without wearing a armor – or whatever :P

Ranael.6423:

It will not give new blood in the mode. It will only create another sub-community of people playing only practice mode.
Worst case scenario it will comfort many players in a behaviour of not questioning themselves about their skill.
I experienced the LFR release in WoW and while the ususal raiders farmed their stuff in low tier, few players made the opposite shift. And for those ones, it was impossible to tell them that they were doing mistakes because their answer was always " don’t tell me what to do I am experienced on this boss, I know the mechanics". What they failed to see is that some mechanics were becoming lethal in the non practice mode.

Don’t remind me of LFR. It made Normal Mode Raiding quite frustrating, since you got quite a good amount of LFR-Scrubs into the Group who fail to realise that they went from Chest Farm Difficulty to a serious Raid Mode, where Things are actually deadly. And most were completely resistant to advice and critisism, having someone from LFR knowing that Thing could be different was like, a Godsend ( doesn’t mean that this Player was good, but at least he had the potential to improve ). Heroic Raiding was much more fun.

How should a Practice Mode work? While being easier ( Well its practice Mode ), the Bosses should have the same Mechanics so People can get comfortable with the Mechanics.
Deadly Mechanics should stay deadly. If things that Oneshot you get nerfed to the Point that they just do 50% or 75% Damage than People will try to tank these Things, or Rebound through this. And then they’ll try this in Normal Mode, I think everyone can see the Problem )
Whil still staying deadly, these deadly Mechanics could be a bit slower. Like 5 additional Seconds for World Eater to go boom, or a slower Flame Wall.
Instead of Less HP how about an Option that lets you choose on which Phase the Boss will start ( but to unlock the specific Phases, you have to go through the previous Phases ). For Example. Matthias. You Training Group knows how to deal with the first three Phases really good, but they need to practice on the Abomination Phase. Instead going through every Phase every Time, the Group could start at the Abo Phase to train it. Just an Idea, don’t know if this would really work. ( Don’t forget that Practice Mode goes without Rewards )
Don’t know about the 5 Man Thing, because some Mechanics have to changed and the Overlaps have to be removed otherwise it could get really awkward. ( Sacrifice, Well and Corruption at the same time at a 5 Man Encounter? Have fun CC’ing your Teammate. )

Blizzard did this to some degree, and dumbed down raids to the point that any monkey with a keyboard could do them. I for one am having a hard time with raids in this game, and that’s a good thing. Yea, being able to ‘practice" tanking on Chrono would be ok but I agree with most in that it doesn’t warrant what we would lose from other areas of the game, i.e. some more class changes?!

I’ll never agree to anything remotely close to a ‘LFR’ solution that Blizzard created. In fact some folks have mentioned that there were more reasons than just ‘opening’ up the content to anyone with what they call a ‘computer’ into the scene:

- Unlike what we have for GW2, there won’t be level progression, or gear progression. There’s no hard requirements that made the math literally impossible for some characters. WoW does this constantly for every expansion, and suddenly after a few expansions that extremely hard-core raid you couldn’t do a year or two ago turns into a solo instance since you literally out-level everything which breaks all sorts of encounters.

- Touched on it, but the content is time-limited in WoW or any MMO where expansions drop releasing higher levels and thus better gear. For a game so fixated on raiding as literally its single end-game goal, in order to appease its vastly growing population they made decisions as far back as WotLK to make Normal-Mode easier than the Normal-modes of the past, and the Hard-mode the actual end-game that you aim for.

These decisions would later set the stage for massive population depletion, especially since they impacted the quality and quantity of raids being put out.

GW2 doesn’t have any of the above reasons to get players to play their raids, Forsaken Thicket will remain at the same difficulty it is now, and however long it takes eventually more and more players will familiarize themselves and well, it will go into the rotation for veteran raiding guilds for typical raid training or simple clearing and gearing alts. New folks (provided that if I remember properly from Mike O) will have free access to Forsaken Thicket when they get upgraded to HoT once the next expansion hits. I was pretty sure that was the case, that every expansion will open up the past content for free on old accounts and new accounts going forward.

Simply saying ‘It will generate interest’ or ‘It will increase those numbers raiding’ are not good enough reasons to hijack the purpose of raiding as a whole in this game.

Sykper.6583:

Simply saying ‘It will generate interest’ or ‘It will increase those numbers raiding’ are not good enough reasons to hijack the purpose of raiding as a whole in this game.

No one wants to hijack anything.

It is very much about ensuring the health of raids for years to come. Like you said, there is a gear/level treadmill in WoW that eventually causes raids to fall behind. But there is a time toward the end of each expansion that more casual players can experience the raids (not LFG) due to the gear transitions. That is by design because developers realize there is a need for that – for both story progression and general content reasons.

There is no gear treadmill in GW2 (and hopefully never will be). While that alleviates many issues when compared to a game like WoW, it creates others. Less hardcore players will always be a step behind the hardcore raiders – and there will always be an experience just out of their reach. While I agree that the upper level rewards and satisfaction of beating an encounter at the highest level remain important concepts, I also believe there needs to be an intermediate step for those players to experience the raids – both for story and to enjoy the content. Without that, you risk alienating large groups of people, disenfranchising them from the story (however thin the connection) and making them feel like they are somehow less important to the makers of the game.

For all of those reasons, there needs to be some kind of variable difficulty built into the raid experience in GW2. Other games realized this – even ones that started off with the “go hardcore or go home” approach to raids. It will happen in GW2 eventually. Doing it now – and building into the system – ensures that it will have a minimal impact on the hardcore experience so many people wish to retain.

Blaeys.3102:

Sykper.6583:

Simply saying ‘It will generate interest’ or ‘It will increase those numbers raiding’ are not good enough reasons to hijack the purpose of raiding as a whole in this game.

No one wants to hijack anything.

It is very much about ensuring the health of raids for years to come. Like you said, there is a gear/level treadmill in WoW that eventually causes raids to fall behind. But there is a time toward the end of each expansion that more casual players can experience the raids (not LFG) due to the gear transitions. That is by design because developers realize there is a need for that – for both story progression and general content reasons.

Raiding was WoW’s only largest end-game, there was no prospect of Horizontial Progression, or rather there actually used to be some of it from Reputation Vendors to get unique mounts and specific attunements for the end-game raiding.

GW2 has multiple end-games. The vast majority of the ‘general’ content isn’t limited by gear in this game at all.

Blaeys.3102:

There is no gear treadmill in GW2 (and hopefully never will be). While that alleviates many issues when compared to a game like WoW, it creates others. Less hardcore players will always be a step behind the hardcore raiders – and there will always be an experience just out of their reach.

Incorrect, which is particularly saddening since you previously stated that WoW has these problems because the experiences get dampened over time due to outleveling and out-gearing the encounters. Provided if GW2 maintains the current status quo of Ascended and Legendary gear being the highest stats in the game, the less hardcore will never truly fall behind those brute-forcing the raids day 1. It will take the less hardcore more time, but the experience will stay constant should they succeed a year from now, 2 years from now, however long GW2 lasts for.

While I agree that the upper level rewards and satisfaction of beating an encounter at the highest level remain important concepts, I also believe there needs to be an intermediate step for those players to experience the raids – both for story and to enjoy the content. Without that, you risk alienating large groups of people, disenfranchising them from the story (however thin the connection) and making them feel like they are somehow less important to the makers of the game.

Blaeys.3102:

For all of those reasons, there needs to be some kind of variable difficulty built into the raid experience in GW2. Other games realized this – even ones that started off with the “go hardcore or go home” approach to raids. It will happen in GW2 eventually. Doing it now – and building into the system – ensures that it will have a minimal impact on the hardcore experience so many people wish to retain.

There’s zero need for it, Forsaken Thicket won’t change in difficulty, it shouldn’t change. In fact, if anything as new expansions and extra elite specializations are brought out, the potential combinations of new raid comps will expand. Raiding will become naturally easier, yet still quite difficult given the current capabilities of the bosses. Green Circles will still need to be stand in (unless you pull off some Distortion Shenanigans) and Gorseval still ends the life of anyone on his platform after a long channel.

You have only speculated what might happen because other raiding MMOs have had this issue. Other Raiding MMOs had an expiration date on when their raid content becomes obsolete, GW2 does not.

If you take an difficulty specter Raids on GW2 are probably on the middle pending already to the easier side as proven many times. There is no barrier, there is no reason for difficulty scalling. As said many times you want raids to cather for people that dont give a cent about raids, so with this as the base for your reasons it should never be considered.

Sykper.6583:

You have only speculated what might happen because other raiding MMOs have had this issue. Other Raiding MMOs had an expiration date on when their raid content becomes obsolete, GW2 does not.

This is a valid point, however considering how raiding works in other MMOs GW2 will have entirely different issues compared to them. Let’s take a look at WoW for example. With every new expansion they release a new set of raids and they try to spread the minority of players intrested in them. Since the number of raids could be considered a constant they don’t need to worry about trying to spread the playerbase too thin.

Right now with every new expansion the old raids become obsolete. If that wasn’t the case and they would raise every raid’s level they ever released to the maximum they would have an insane amount of raids people could run. I doubt even WoW’s raiding population would be enough to support that. Not even half of it.

But this is the case we have in GW2. No matter how many raids we will have in the future it should be expected the old raids to be still runned, because the nature of GW2 doesn’t make them obsolete. The number of raids isn’t a constant here, however the playerbase running them could be. If we don’t make changes to existing raids to make more people intrested at the same time we get new raids , sooner or later the playerbase won’t be able to support the amount if raids we will have.

Scipio.3204:

Sykper.6583:

You have only speculated what might happen because other raiding MMOs have had this issue. Other Raiding MMOs had an expiration date on when their raid content becomes obsolete, GW2 does not.

This is a valid point, however considering how raiding works in other MMOs GW2 will have entirely different issues compared to them. Let’s take a look at WoW for example. With every new expansion they release a new set of raids and they try to spread the minority of players intrested in them. Since the number of raids could be considered a constant they don’t need to worry about trying to spread the playerbase too thin.

Right now with every new expansion the old raids become obsolete. If that wasn’t the case and they would raise every raid’s level they ever released to the maximum they would have an insane amount of raids people could run. I doubt even WoW’s raiding population would be enough to support that. Not even half of it.

But this is the case we have in GW2. No matter how many raids we will have in the future it should be expected the old raids to be still runned, because the nature of GW2 doesn’t make them obsolete. The number of raids isn’t a constant here, however the playerbase running them could be. If we don’t make changes to existing raids to make more people intrested at the same time we get new raids , sooner or later the playerbase won’t be able to support the amount if raids we will have.

This isnt the case now as we only have 1 raid. And when it becomes a problem you just solve it by adding rewards/incentives on the older raids for people to run it, it doesnt have nothing to do with easy / training raids.
As seen with dungeons people stopped the moment the rewards become bad (not because they are too old, because they were old and people still runned when got good rewards), if anet wanted people to run dungeons they would change the rewards ( not changing dificult ), the same go for raids.