Guild Wars 2

cranos.5913:

thrag.9740:

Can we please just have all buffs and boons applied to 10 players in pve? Like banners effect 10, grace of the land given to 10 players, quickness shared with 10 players, etc.

Right now, groups are going to start at 2 war, 2 druid, 2 mes, and that leaves 4 spots that are somewhat free to play with (exactly the same as previous 4-4-2 comp). If all skills just effected the whole party, we would only need 1 war 1 mes and 1 druid to cover the big offensive group buffs.

When we all proposed this idea pre-HOT Anet said they didn’t want to create a single super group necessary for raids, but look at how restrictive things are now.

I doubt they’ll do this any time soon. Our dps would be way higher so all the previous content would have to be readjusted to fit this supercomp. Not saying they shouldn’t do it btw, just that it’s highly unrealistic at this point.

Funny Thing is that we’ll see a smaller Version of a Supercomp. Now 8 Places will be set and the last 2 can be either Condi Ranger or Condi Engi if there is Condi Damage needed ( I would go for Condi Ranger, easier and more Damage )

From what I’ve seen, the recent changes didn’t affect top-tier groups too much (qT casually killed Xera with 4+ mins on the timer), but average groups have noticably harder time than before.
Thanks to the baseline nerfs of Druid healing, you’ll be seeing less heals overall no matter the gear (even full magi Druid will do less heals than pre-nerf). This will put a group under bigger pressure and will result in a DPS loss (because more dodges and recovery are needed) in addition to all the baseline DPS nerfs (boon duration, quickness uptime,…).
So everytime you had a “close kill” pre-nerf, it will basically become a wipe now. Raids are overall more demanding and will require much better gameplay.

cranos.5913:

thrag.9740:

Can we please just have all buffs and boons applied to 10 players in pve? Like banners effect 10, grace of the land given to 10 players, quickness shared with 10 players, etc.

Right now, groups are going to start at 2 war, 2 druid, 2 mes, and that leaves 4 spots that are somewhat free to play with (exactly the same as previous 4-4-2 comp). If all skills just effected the whole party, we would only need 1 war 1 mes and 1 druid to cover the big offensive group buffs.

When we all proposed this idea pre-HOT Anet said they didn’t want to create a single super group necessary for raids, but look at how restrictive things are now.

I doubt they’ll do this any time soon. Our dps would be way higher so all the previous content would have to be readjusted to fit this supercomp. Not saying they shouldn’t do it btw, just that it’s highly unrealistic at this point.

It’s not hard to do. When they had made all world bosses crittable, they had also raised their health. Add 10% health (or whatever) to all raid bosses to compensate for raidwide DPS increase and that’s it.

Currently nerfs and buffs (that still don’t equalize classes) make you want to stack more of nerfed classes (however counterintuitive it is):

• Elementalist nerf? Stack more of them on DPS checks like Gorseval and Keep Construct because you no longer have DPS margin to allow for as many “wrong” classes.
• Mesmer nerf? Now you need 2 of them instead of 1. Not only that, but 2 PS as well, because SoI is sharing less might now.

Also both are raid DPS nerfs. Is content readjusted for our lower DPS?

Astralporing.1957:

DeceiverX.8361:

All the PvE players, screaming for roles, demanding that the berserker meta is the devil and support should be made viable

Erm, i’m afraid you are mixing different suggestions from different sources together. Raid crowd mostly (thought not all) did ask for required roles, to mirror their prior games raid experience, but Raiders are not “all the PvE players”. Most of the PvE crowd didn’t like dps meta not because they wanted other roles to be required, they just wanted them to be useful (so you could choose what to play). Creating obligatory support roles and dedicated healers was the exact opposite of that.

DeceiverX.8361:

There never was diversity, and there never will be. There will always be a mathematical optimum.

Sure. What is important however is how much that optimum is better than its contenders.

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

And that’s not what I typed, nor implied. Professions should have their niches, strengths, and high points, but that doesn’t mean any of those should always be required. There should be more than one way to skin a Gorseval.

Exactly.
Unfortunately, Raids strongly promote optimizing DPS output over all other options.

afrocrusade.4253:

Running into a raid with 10 engineers should not work for obvious reasons.

And those “obvious” reasons are?

Harper.4173:

And that could certainly be made to happen – the thing is – even if there were 3, 5 or 10 ways to skin a Gorseval it would not matter.
They could not be the exact same way because then they would not be distinct.
And if they are distinct then ONE has to be easier. And that will be the meta – and the rest won’t matter as far as PUGs are concerned at least.

Yes, one should be easiest. One should be fastest. Those two however should never be the same. That way, there would be multiple meta options, depending on group goals. One option would be picked if the group would just want to complete the encounter as safely as possible, another if they wanted to do it fast, another if they were after certain achieve, and few others if the group wanted to mix those goals.

But you have that. Look at Gorseval.
You can no-updraft or updraft. And you could bring 4-4-2 or 7-2-1. Aren’t those options?

Tarasicodissa.7084:

From what I’ve seen, the recent changes didn’t affect top-tier groups too much (qT casually killed Xera with 4+ mins on the timer), but average groups have noticably harder time than before.
Thanks to the baseline nerfs of Druid healing, you’ll be seeing less heals overall no matter the gear (even full magi Druid will do less heals than pre-nerf). This will put a group under bigger pressure and will result in a DPS loss (because more dodges and recovery are needed) in addition to all the baseline DPS nerfs (boon duration, quickness uptime,…).
So everytime you had a “close kill” pre-nerf, it will basically become a wipe now. Raids are overall more demanding and will require much better gameplay.

It’s not harder, it’s more tedious.

They could have done the same thing by just boosting boss health by x% and at least then players wouldn’t feel like a kitten version of their former self and wouldn’t have to ditch rev, thief, and necro players to say competitive.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Harper.4173:

And if they are distinct then ONE has to be easier. And that will be the meta – and the rest won’t matter as far as PUGs are concerned at least.

That’s not how people behave. If there are 10 builds and one is far superior to the others, then of course it will become meta. But if one is 1% more efficient and the second is 20% more fun and the third is 30% easier to play, then the most skilled will gravitate towards the first, while others will gravitate towards the other two.

Meta isn’t defined to be the most efficient possible build; it’s just the most popular and there are oodles of reasons for builds to be popular. One current example are MM necros in fractals: this isn’t efficient, but it’s highly effective especially when PUGging. That’s why so many people want to run 4 necros + a druid: it gets the job done quickly enough However, people who know fractals better can and will run entirely different comps.

tl;dr diversity and metas are more complicated than someone stating that “this build is best”.

---

I don’t happen to agree with the OP’s thesis either: we don’t know that raid diversity is dead until we give people 2-3 weeks to figure out what works, what’s fun, and what’s efficient. It took a while to establish the current meta and it will take a while for people to adapt to the current game. Of course, in the early days, people are going to do what they think is easiest, which will probably be less diverse than what we saw last week.

You might think that – but if one is 30% easier then pretty much everyone will be doing that one.
Raid timers are short – 1-5-10% faster doesn’t matter unless you’re trying to do a speed clear video.
For the vast majority of players the EASIER method would be meta. Yes super high-end guilds might occasionally do something else – but it would be virtually irrelevant to the rest of the players.

Look at FOTM – look at T4’s daily necro only. Is it the fastest? No. But people run it – most people run it because it’s easy.

My point is your point and it is this – regardless of encounter design for one reason or another one way of doing that encounter will become “meta” and the few people that want to play differently aren’t worth (IMO) the development time to make different approaches to the same encounter.

Tarasicodissa.7084:

From what I’ve seen, the recent changes didn’t affect top-tier groups too much (qT casually killed Xera with 4+ mins on the timer), but average groups have noticably harder time than before.
Thanks to the baseline nerfs of Druid healing, you’ll be seeing less heals overall no matter the gear (even full magi Druid will do less heals than pre-nerf). This will put a group under bigger pressure and will result in a DPS loss (because more dodges and recovery are needed) in addition to all the baseline DPS nerfs (boon duration, quickness uptime,…).
So everytime you had a “close kill” pre-nerf, it will basically become a wipe now. Raids are overall more demanding and will require much better gameplay.

Didn’t really notice much change in the clear post patch, took out all the necros/thieves/rev and filled it with eles instead, pretty much the same had perma quickness etc and I’m definitely not qT level.

In fact it probably felt better than the old 4-4-2 comp as an Ele since I get much more alacrity so lava font is less aids.

Whatever, long live dual chrono 5-5 comps & r i p my necro/rev/thief and hammer dh.

Harper.4173:

But you have that. Look at Gorseval.
You can no-updraft or updraft. And you could bring 4-4-2 or 7-2-1. Aren’t those options?

Short version: No.

Long version:
Those are forced possibilities, not options. You do updrafts if you lack DPS, but it comes at the cost of complicating mechanics: more orbs, risks of getting kicked off the platform, 4-updraft kills are always in enrage (during enrage you are much more required to dodge).

Other fights have similar mechanics that are becoming progressively harder if you have low DPS: Slothasor spawns more slublings, Xera spawns more shards etc.

7/2/1 was generally believed to be lower DPS than 4/4/2 before patch, however you couldn’t always easily find a 2nd PS or Druid, so 7/2/1 was a possibility to start/continue your run faster. Why would you go 7/2/1 if you can gather full 4/2/2 raid fast enough?

When one option is strictly inferior than another one, it’s not really an option.

The only raid encounter you don’t care much about composition is Escort, but even there a Chrono and 2 Druids simplify things a lot.

Harper.4173:

You might think that – but if one is 30% easier then pretty much everyone will be doing that one.
Raid timers are short – 1-5-10% faster doesn’t matter unless you’re trying to do a speed clear video.
For the vast majority of players the EASIER method would be meta. Yes super high-end guilds might occasionally do something else – but it would be virtually irrelevant to the rest of the players.

Mechanics that become progressively harder with time are one of the reason to pick max DPS (1% may be nothing, but 10% is a lot). You may have harder time with your rotations, but easier time with boss mechanics.

Just wanna drop in here and say you got that the wrong way around @Andy.
Yeah sure doing updrafts DOES make it more complicated, but that’s the intended way. If your squad can bring the DPS, you are rewarded by being able to make it easier on yourself. Of course technically you’re punished for not bringing it, but since updrafts are how it’s supposed to be done under normal circumstances it doesn’t exactly count.

Tarasicodissa.7084:

Thanks to the baseline nerfs of Druid healing, you’ll be seeing less heals overall no matter the gear (even full magi Druid will do less heals than pre-nerf).

In my calculations this isn’t so. Could you care to share how or where you got your information from?
When I’m in full magi with food, I’m healing more in CA than pre-patch. (PvE)

Tarasicodissa.7084:

From what I’ve seen, the recent changes didn’t affect top-tier groups too much (qT casually killed Xera with 4+ mins on the timer), but average groups have noticably harder time than before.
Thanks to the baseline nerfs of Druid healing, you’ll be seeing less heals overall no matter the gear (even full magi Druid will do less heals than pre-nerf). This will put a group under bigger pressure and will result in a DPS loss (because more dodges and recovery are needed) in addition to all the baseline DPS nerfs (boon duration, quickness uptime,…).
So everytime you had a “close kill” pre-nerf, it will basically become a wipe now. Raids are overall more demanding and will require much better gameplay.

How does magi Druid healer compare to magi Ele healer? I know that the Ele was suboptimal before as Druid could do about the same but bring more to the table for the group. I think their spirit was one example.

Did some of you even watch the video? Hammer dh is dead? What build did you see Marcel using in that fast xera kill? Hammer dh.

Rev is dead? Can you do arithmatic? Look at ele small hit box dps. Subtract 1.5k for losing assassin’s presence. Look at rev small hit box dps. Add 6k dps for assassin’s presence on 4 other party members. Tell me with a straight face that a second ele beats a rev vs small hitbox.

Typical overreactions by people who need to be spoon fed by qT.

NikeEU.7690:

Typical overreactions by people who need to be spoon fed by qT.

Well they also got spoon fed for years by DnT to be honest. As soon as you, invested players, start to share some knowledge, it triggers some switch off in many brains. I mean you are (general you) the ones who refines builds and rotations and made perma quickness a thing. Before that, boss were killed without perma quickness (it was harder but still doable). Now most players assume it should be a prerequisite and that the nerf of quickness availability is a sign that Anet devs don’t play their game. The thing is players only play the game while devs gives the rules and test those rule in their game (a.k.a play their game)… so it is actually two steps for them and one for us. Yet they are called the lazy ones…..

Ha. Pretty much what I was suspecting. Probably one of the reasons why I’m waiting for those that are deeply knowledgeable about the classes who actually determine what the meta is to chime. They’d be more reliable as to what the actual status of the update over those that simply mimic their builds.

Any timeline for when DnT, qT, or any others I can’t remember will give their impression of the balance patch?

It’s not a knock against qT at all btw, it’s a knock against people who see “rev 26k ele 31k” and assume that means ele is better without considering all implications. I don’t think qT would endorse people using their numbers to jump to conclusion prematurely

NikeEU.7690:

It’s not a knock against qT at all btw, it’s a knock against people who see “rev 26k ele 31k” and assume that means ele is better without considering all implications. I don’t think qT would endorse people using their numbers to jump to conclusion prematurely

Sorry if my answer sounded like you were attacking them because that is not how I read it at all. I’ve always considered people from all those high level guilds (DnT qT sC KING….) equally : very good players with enough time and passion for the game to try to optimize and create comprehensive guides for others. But like I said, initiative like metabattle or your guides are actually the things that make people stop thinking.

Don’t want to jump into conclusions, but I’m not sure if rev will be able to make up the dps from dropping one of the higher dps classes, especially considering that rev doesn’t exactly benefit much from alacrity where other classes do. Obviously, I don’t have any numbers yet so I can’t say anything for certain, but it’s a feeling I have. I’d gladly be proven wrong, though.

Cleared everything (except Xera) post patch yesterday with 5-5 comp (no rev). DPS was certainly lower, and as such the kills where a bit longer. Probably could have killed Xera too, but some people had to leave.

Did anyone do the math to see whether the overall dps loss from quickness cap / SoI nerf, really warrants barring out revenant permanently? We will be trying out the 4-2-4 comp again and experience it first hand and see how it fairs, but I would like to see how big the difference in overall dps is on paper.

We tested 5 man sub squad dps.

On large hit box 2 ele as dps was the winner by so far no other option makes sense.

In small hitbox double ele and 1 ele 1 guard and 1 ele 1 rev were roughly equal with the rev perhaps being slightly ahead due to more consistent buff uptime.

The worst was 1 ele 1 thief which was noticeably worse than any of the others which was surprising. My guess is because thief doesn’t help with might or fury. It would be worth trying rev plus thief and no ele on a small hit box but we didn’t think of it.

NikeEU.7690:

We tested 5 man sub squad dps.

On large hit box 2 ele as dps was the winner by so far no other option makes sense.

In small hitbox double ele and 1 ele 1 guard and 1 ele 1 rev were roughly equal with the rev perhaps being slightly ahead due to more consistent buff uptime.

The worst was 1 ele 1 thief which was noticeably worse than any of the others which was surprising. My guess is because thief doesn’t help with might or fury. It would be worth trying rev plus thief and no ele on a small hit box but we didn’t think of it.

Seems to me like it’s simplest to just use double ele then. With a bit of build swapping between encounters it’s either best dps or within margin of error of best. That way you don’t have to muck about with swapping characters or whatever to avoid losing dps on big hitboxes.

For pug groups ele-rev might be more reliable just because you never know if the other people have any idea how to play their classes, so that helps with boon upkeep.

Ele-thief will be low because of the alacrity dps loss for thief. If they just made initiative regen affected by chill and alacrity, this would be easily fixed.

One additional thought, I recall Venomshare condie thief being at least potentially competitive in dps with other builds a few months back. Since venom cooldowns do benefit from alacrity, did you test out that build?

Everyone is now trying to regain perma quickness and hence have two chronos in their setup, but does it worth it?
I mean what counts in the end is raid dps but having 2 low dps instead of one (and here I don’t count druid nerf, assuming 2 druids setup are not enough to heal the entire raid) is maybe not the way to go. If we’d accept that 10 people cannot be covered by perma quickness and hence replace the second chrono by another dps, would it be a huge loss for the entire party ?

NikeEU.7690:

We tested 5 man sub squad dps.

On large hit box 2 ele as dps was the winner by so far no other option makes sense.

In small hitbox double ele and 1 ele 1 guard and 1 ele 1 rev were roughly equal with the rev perhaps being slightly ahead due to more consistent buff uptime.

The worst was 1 ele 1 thief which was noticeably worse than any of the others which was surprising. My guess is because thief doesn’t help with might or fury. It would be worth trying rev plus thief and no ele on a small hit box but we didn’t think of it.

Did ya’ll try Condi Ranger/Engi? And was that Guard Hammer? Think it’s worth noting the 2 Ele means all your DPS are nice and squishy and you don’t have perma protection (druids can provide good but not complete coverage) where with the Rev or Guard you’d have complete coverage.

Seems to me that there is still a fair amount of options, just instead of Rev having a ‘guaranteed’ slot you now have 2 mesmers. And, well, no thieves :/

Fay.2357:

NikeEU.7690:

We tested 5 man sub squad dps.

On large hit box 2 ele as dps was the winner by so far no other option makes sense.

In small hitbox double ele and 1 ele 1 guard and 1 ele 1 rev were roughly equal with the rev perhaps being slightly ahead due to more consistent buff uptime.

The worst was 1 ele 1 thief which was noticeably worse than any of the others which was surprising. My guess is because thief doesn’t help with might or fury. It would be worth trying rev plus thief and no ele on a small hit box but we didn’t think of it.

Seems to me like it’s simplest to just use double ele then. With a bit of build swapping between encounters it’s either best dps or within margin of error of best. That way you don’t have to muck about with swapping characters or whatever to avoid losing dps on big hitboxes.

For pug groups ele-rev might be more reliable just because you never know if the other people have any idea how to play their classes, so that helps with boon upkeep.

Ele-thief will be low because of the alacrity dps loss for thief. If they just made initiative regen affected by chill and alacrity, this would be easily fixed.

One additional thought, I recall Venomshare condie thief being at least potentially competitive in dps with other builds a few months back. Since venom cooldowns do benefit from alacrity, did you test out that build?

Double ele is probably a good all round option but you limit your access to Protection and quality cc and possibly Fury.

I think guardian in 1 of your 4 dps slots is very reasonable due to dps that scales vs big hit boxes and has buff support and protection.

I think rev is similarly useful but perhaps less so vs big hit boxes. Rev also allows his groups mesmer to run scholar instead of leadership which is nice.

Both guard and rev have very good cc help with might help with fury and guardian even has quickness assistance at the start of the fight.

Jerus.4350:

NikeEU.7690:

We tested 5 man sub squad dps.

On large hit box 2 ele as dps was the winner by so far no other option makes sense.

In small hitbox double ele and 1 ele 1 guard and 1 ele 1 rev were roughly equal with the rev perhaps being slightly ahead due to more consistent buff uptime.

The worst was 1 ele 1 thief which was noticeably worse than any of the others which was surprising. My guess is because thief doesn’t help with might or fury. It would be worth trying rev plus thief and no ele on a small hit box but we didn’t think of it.

Did ya’ll try Condi Ranger/Engi? And was that Guard Hammer? Think it’s worth noting the 2 Ele means all your DPS are nice and squishy and you don’t have perma protection (druids can provide good but not complete coverage) where with the Rev or Guard you’d have complete coverage.

Seems to me that there is still a fair amount of options, just instead of Rev having a ‘guaranteed’ slot you now have 2 mesmers. And, well, no thieves :/

Condi ranger in a dps role is intriguing because the ability to take sun spirit frees a slot on your healers bar to bring stone spirit for better buff coverage. That’s a pretty big selling point to me. Also better fury uptime due to two tigers per squad group.

Aaaand to top it all off, Viper Ele now pretty much kicks every other condi class in the kitten , at least for non moving targets. This just even more enforces eles to take the last 4 spots, 40% of the raid group.

I wouldn’t consider what is an obvious bug to be worth basing decisions like that on

Xstein.2187:

Aaaand to top it all off, Viper Ele now pretty much kicks every other condi class in the kitten , at least for non moving targets. This just even more enforces eles to take the last 4 spots, 40% of the raid group.

The thing with Ele is a Bug and I hope that its gonna be fixed. I was in an Experimental run with 6 Eles, 2 Warris, 2 Druids and we Phased Sabetha faster than normal.
And this Group was inexperienced on Eles and the Eles were not optimized.

Now imagine this with an Optimized Exp Ele Group.

Anet, Fix pls.

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

afrocrusade.4253:

DeceiverX.8361:

SNIP

The manner of your typing is what’s pedantic. You say 10 words in 10 sentences. Brevity=soul of wit, blabla.

I don’t think people are being ‘non-brevious’ to avoid being witty. It’s not clear to people how you come to your conclusion about diversity dying … because of class equalizations. Diversity dies when people only want specific classes, which is what was happening due to OP’ed combos of effects. Anet reversed that … diversity should AT LEAST stay the same.

It doesn’t rly tbh because of how OP quickness is, and all other boons tbh. Not taking the buff classes (warr, druid, chrono) puts you at a severe disadvantage. It’s very much worth stacking them. So by nerfing chrono all they did was giving them an extra spot on a raid group.

No, I’m actually correct because you don’t need a Chrono to stack quickness on 10 players to be successful in raids begin with … Quickness being OPed doesn’t mean you need it for success, so yes, you can raid without it successfully and have a diverse team.

This is the same, incorrect mentality that meta lovers forced on players for dungeons … people didn’t need to play only meta builds to complete dungeon content either.

mesmers are fine you just need 2 of them XD im really ok with the changes to druids druids were supposed to be healers not condis that can heal neither dmgers that can heal an i like that change think is with the new changes the pretty much reduced the diversity of comp to near zero lvl now most groups will be running 2 wars 2 druids (or 1 not sure yet) and 2 chronos leaving 4 spots for the other classes which i really dont like. I understand making healer spec needing to build more healing but changing some of the other classes has lead to some not be playable in a raid cenario anymore and other not see as much placce coz the spots are less

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

afrocrusade.4253:

DeceiverX.8361:

SNIP

The manner of your typing is what’s pedantic. You say 10 words in 10 sentences. Brevity=soul of wit, blabla.

I don’t think people are being ‘non-brevious’ to avoid being witty. It’s not clear to people how you come to your conclusion about diversity dying … because of class equalizations. Diversity dies when people only want specific classes, which is what was happening due to OP’ed combos of effects. Anet reversed that … diversity should AT LEAST stay the same.

It doesn’t rly tbh because of how OP quickness is, and all other boons tbh. Not taking the buff classes (warr, druid, chrono) puts you at a severe disadvantage. It’s very much worth stacking them. So by nerfing chrono all they did was giving them an extra spot on a raid group.

No, I’m actually correct because you don’t need a Chrono to stack quickness on 10 players to be successful in raids begin with … Quickness being OPed doesn’t mean you need it for success, so yes, you can raid without it successfully and have a diverse team.

This is the same, incorrect mentality that meta lovers forced on players for dungeons … people didn’t need to play only meta builds to complete dungeon content either.

Aye but dungeons were easy. Believe it or not, raiding with pugs is actually quite the challenge. I for one, don’t believe that a no quickness pug raid will have much success, unless you’re planning to spend 2h on a single boss fight.

IDK if you’re overestimating raiders by looking at qT/DnT vids or underestimating the effect quickness has, but for real, you’re making it sooooooo much more difficult not bringing quickness. You’re pretty much always gonna hit enrage.

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

afrocrusade.4253:

DeceiverX.8361:

SNIP

The manner of your typing is what’s pedantic. You say 10 words in 10 sentences. Brevity=soul of wit, blabla.

I don’t think people are being ‘non-brevious’ to avoid being witty. It’s not clear to people how you come to your conclusion about diversity dying … because of class equalizations. Diversity dies when people only want specific classes, which is what was happening due to OP’ed combos of effects. Anet reversed that … diversity should AT LEAST stay the same.

It doesn’t rly tbh because of how OP quickness is, and all other boons tbh. Not taking the buff classes (warr, druid, chrono) puts you at a severe disadvantage. It’s very much worth stacking them. So by nerfing chrono all they did was giving them an extra spot on a raid group.

No, I’m actually correct because you don’t need a Chrono to stack quickness on 10 players to be successful in raids begin with … Quickness being OPed doesn’t mean you need it for success, so yes, you can raid without it successfully and have a diverse team.

This is the same, incorrect mentality that meta lovers forced on players for dungeons … people didn’t need to play only meta builds to complete dungeon content either.

You don’t need druids either, nor do you need PS warriors etc.

However you get so much bang for your buck that you have to be dense not to take them with you.

cranos.5913:

TBF neither of those classes can keep the uptime on 10 players by themselves. Chrono could. Now it’s normalized compared to the others, still 100% uptime on a 5 man pt. Don’t get me wrong I’m not overjoyed at the exclusion of so many classes, but the example is kinda… well wrong.

The difference being those classes bought something else beyond their boon. Druid bought great healing or condition damage and PS bought an okay amount of personal damage.

Chronomancer on the other hand was a pure support spec, it’s personal damage being gutter trash was made up for by being able to hold perma quickness on 8~ squad members.

So druid had great healing and good boon support, PS had okay personal damage and good boon support. Chrono had terrible personal damage but great support. Now chrono has terrible personal damage and average boon support.

Though don’t take that the wrong way, I don’t want more damage to make up for our gutted support as much as I know other people do. I just want a one pure support class/build in this game that prioritizes the boons it gives out over it’s own damage, I don’t think that’s much to ask. And chronomancer was that class/build, but now it’s just average support with an unintuitive rotation.

Nukkuu.6591:

cranos.5913:

TBF neither of those classes can keep the uptime on 10 players by themselves. Chrono could. Now it’s normalized compared to the others, still 100% uptime on a 5 man pt. Don’t get me wrong I’m not overjoyed at the exclusion of so many classes, but the example is kinda… well wrong.

The difference being those classes bought something else beyond their boon. Druid bought great healing or condition damage and PS bought an okay amount of personal damage.

Chronomancer on the other hand was a pure support spec, it’s personal damage being gutter trash was made up for by being able to hold perma quickness on 8~ squad members.

So druid had great healing and good boon support, PS had okay personal damage and good boon support. Chrono had terrible personal damage but great support. Now chrono has terrible personal damage and average boon support.

Though don’t take that the wrong way, I don’t want more damage to make up for our gutted support as much as I know other people do. I just want a one pure support class/build in this game that prioritizes the boons it gives out over it’s own damage, I don’t think that’s much to ask. And chronomancer was that class/build, but now it’s just average support with an unintuitive rotation.

It’s actually still a great support class. Alacrity, 100% quickness on 5 ppl, distortion, pulls, great tank. Honestly most of our kills kinda got easier with the 5-5 comp. To name a few, with the extra pulls the chance to go down on xera is nearly impossible as long as no one stands in orbs and sloths shake attack gets distorted for the full 10ppl. Not that we had trouble with fights like that before, but now, almost braindead tbh.

What you people don’t understand is that these are PvP changes.

They don’t give a kitten about PvE collateral.

Zenith.7301:

What you people don’t understand is that these are PvP changes.

They don’t give a kitten about PvE collateral.

Well actually, they were apparently because of issues caused in W vW

NikeEU.7690:

Jerus.4350:

NikeEU.7690:

We tested 5 man sub squad dps.

On large hit box 2 ele as dps was the winner by so far no other option makes sense.

In small hitbox double ele and 1 ele 1 guard and 1 ele 1 rev were roughly equal with the rev perhaps being slightly ahead due to more consistent buff uptime.

The worst was 1 ele 1 thief which was noticeably worse than any of the others which was surprising. My guess is because thief doesn’t help with might or fury. It would be worth trying rev plus thief and no ele on a small hit box but we didn’t think of it.

Did ya’ll try Condi Ranger/Engi? And was that Guard Hammer? Think it’s worth noting the 2 Ele means all your DPS are nice and squishy and you don’t have perma protection (druids can provide good but not complete coverage) where with the Rev or Guard you’d have complete coverage.

Seems to me that there is still a fair amount of options, just instead of Rev having a ‘guaranteed’ slot you now have 2 mesmers. And, well, no thieves :/

Condi ranger in a dps role is intriguing because the ability to take sun spirit frees a slot on your healers bar to bring stone spirit for better buff coverage. That’s a pretty big selling point to me. Also better fury uptime due to two tigers per squad group.

You know, you’re incredibly worried about fury, with the way they changed SoI it’s really a non issue if you either have Fgj or a tiger in each sub-squad.

kittening aside I think everyone that raids a lot will agree this patch sucks.

On a side note, has anyone tried condi PS yet since the change? I can imagine soi only transferring a single might stack affects it quite a bit?

cranos.5913:

On a side note, has anyone tried condi PS yet since the change? I can imagine soi only transferring a single might stack affects it quite a bit?

Found this on reddit:

Condi PS is extremly terrible aswell now, since you can’t keep 25 might on your own. Mesmer Signet shares only 1 might now. In our daily run yesterday, we used 2 condi ps in wing 1 and everyone averaged on 17-20 might. Sometimes you cap to 25 but then it drops again really fast.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/58axc0/thoughts_on_oktober_balance_patch_pve_pov/d8yxt13

maddoctor.2738:

cranos.5913:

On a side note, has anyone tried condi PS yet since the change? I can imagine soi only transferring a single might stack affects it quite a bit?

Found this on reddit:

Condi PS is extremly terrible aswell now, since you can’t keep 25 might on your own. Mesmer Signet shares only 1 might now. In our daily run yesterday, we used 2 condi ps in wing 1 and everyone averaged on 17-20 might. Sometimes you cap to 25 but then it drops again really fast.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/58axc0/thoughts_on_oktober_balance_patch_pve_pov/d8yxt13

siiiiiiiigh, rip even more builds I guess.

The real problem here is how important Signet of Inspiration was in the old meta to allow so many builds to function. It’s as if it was the Raid skill or something.

cranos.5913:

maddoctor.2738:

cranos.5913:

On a side note, has anyone tried condi PS yet since the change? I can imagine soi only transferring a single might stack affects it quite a bit?

Found this on reddit:

Condi PS is extremly terrible aswell now, since you can’t keep 25 might on your own. Mesmer Signet shares only 1 might now. In our daily run yesterday, we used 2 condi ps in wing 1 and everyone averaged on 17-20 might. Sometimes you cap to 25 but then it drops again really fast.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/58axc0/thoughts_on_oktober_balance_patch_pve_pov/d8yxt13

siiiiiiiigh, rip even more builds I guess.

Well, this is exactly the kind of things revenant is useful for.

Vargamonth.2047:

cranos.5913:

maddoctor.2738:

cranos.5913:

On a side note, has anyone tried condi PS yet since the change? I can imagine soi only transferring a single might stack affects it quite a bit?

Found this on reddit:

Condi PS is extremly terrible aswell now, since you can’t keep 25 might on your own. Mesmer Signet shares only 1 might now. In our daily run yesterday, we used 2 condi ps in wing 1 and everyone averaged on 17-20 might. Sometimes you cap to 25 but then it drops again really fast.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/58axc0/thoughts_on_oktober_balance_patch_pve_pov/d8yxt13

siiiiiiiigh, rip even more builds I guess.

Well, this is exactly the kind of things revenant is useful for.

maybe idk, think I’d rather go for a d/wh ele.

Mitch.4781:

Zenith.7301:

What you people don’t understand is that these are PvP changes.

They don’t give a kitten about PvE collateral.

Well actually, they were apparently because of issues caused in W vW

And WvW for all intents and purposes is a pvp format, as much as spvp people love to thumb their noses up at WvW.

Same mesmer/revenant/druid whine happens in both wvw and spvp. Whine about losing duels to X roamer spec.

Mitch.4781:

Zenith.7301:

What you people don’t understand is that these are PvP changes.

They don’t give a kitten about PvE collateral.

Well actually, they were apparently because of issues caused in W vW

So? It’s not like he said sPvP, he said just PvP. Last time I checked, there was PvP in WvW.

@Zenith: Just for the record, everyone realizes they make these changes purely based on PvP and don’t give a **** about PvE. It doesn’t make it okay though, we still got plenty of reasons to be mad.

Tarasicodissa.7084:

Mitch.4781:

Zenith.7301:

What you people don’t understand is that these are PvP changes.

They don’t give a kitten about PvE collateral.

Well actually, they were apparently because of issues caused in W vW

So? It’s not like he said sPvP, he said just PvP. Last time I checked, there was PvP in WvW.

@Zenith: Just for the record, everyone realizes they make these changes purely based on PvP and don’t give a **** about PvE. It doesn’t make it okay though, we still got plenty of reasons to be mad.

What a bunch of BS. Have you even checked last few balance patches? Balancing team makes changes mainly for pve and then considers pvp and wvw, if even. The whole reason why HoT specs are beyond overtuned compared to core and remain so after 1 year of xpac launch is PURELY BECAUSE OF RAIDS.

Shadowstep.6049:

Tarasicodissa.7084:

Mitch.4781:

Zenith.7301:

What you people don’t understand is that these are PvP changes.

They don’t give a kitten about PvE collateral.

Well actually, they were apparently because of issues caused in W vW

So? It’s not like he said sPvP, he said just PvP. Last time I checked, there was PvP in WvW.

@Zenith: Just for the record, everyone realizes they make these changes purely based on PvP and don’t give a **** about PvE. It doesn’t make it okay though, we still got plenty of reasons to be mad.

What a bunch of BS. Have you even checked last few balance patches? Balancing team makes changes mainly for pve and then considers pvp and wvw, if even. The whole reason why HoT specs are beyond overtuned compared to core and remain so after 1 year of xpac launch is PURELY BECAUSE OF RAIDS.

Lmao sure keep telling yourself that.

cranos.5913:

It’s actually still a great support class. Alacrity, 100% quickness on 5 ppl, distortion, pulls, great tank. Honestly most of our kills kinda got easier with the 5-5 comp. To name a few, with the extra pulls the chance to go down on xera is nearly impossible as long as no one stands in orbs and sloths shake attack gets distorted for the full 10ppl. Not that we had trouble with fights like that before, but now, almost braindead tbh.

Only being able to buff 5 people is the same as the semi-support classes (ps/druid); it makes us have average active support in terms of boon coverage compared to before. So we have the same boon coverage as a semi-support class while still being only a support role outselves. That’s pretty average.

Having the extra utility from pulls and distortion of another mesmer isn’t increasing the support capabilities of the class, you’re just bring extra utility.

Shadowstep.6049:

What a bunch of BS. Have you even checked last few balance patches? Balancing team makes changes mainly for pve and then considers pvp and wvw, if even.

I can’t talk much for other classes as I usually only concern myself with mesmer changes since it was my main and then brush over the alt classes I used. But the last few patches for mesmer, barely any change was for PvE (and if it was it would be a minor, laughable thing like 5% sceptre) but rather aimed at reducing the tankiness of us in PvP (nerfing of Persistence of Memory, nerfing the cooldown of shield 4, nerfing precognition), and now our boonshare mainly because of WvW.

[Quote]

maybe idk, think I’d rather go for a d/wh ele.[/quote]

Dwh ele makes like 28k dps small hit box.

Rev makes 26k dps small hit box.

Rev solves any Might, Fury or Protection issues your team has due to buffing the condi ps and making like 4 might of its own. It let’s your mesmers use scholar runes or run dps food. It buffs each member of the group by about 1.5k dps. 26k + 6k = 32k.

Wait so rev is not dead? yay \o/