Guild Wars 2

Absurdo.8309:

Ayrilana.1396:

AndyS.5630:

Ayrilana.1396:

They removed something that had gone a bit overboard. You can’t honestly believe that being able to summon swarms of jagged horrors, that can be kept alive, which deal a lot of bleeding damage, was actually intended? There’s always a reason to bring a class. It’s just that some people prefer to go with what is the most optimal.

It didn’t go overboard. While that mechanic could be awkward, it was absolutely required one to bring necro DPS to a reasonable level. So yes, the damage dealt by horrors seemed to be intended, even though underlying mechanic was awkward, weird and unintended.

Ayrilana.1396:

Then that’s on the players and not anything within the game. There’s a decently sized margin between what high successful groups are doing and what it would take to fail. It’s more than the several percent you claim. Players very well can control what builds/compositions they have in their group but that by no way means that only those that they choose are what’s viable.

That is exactly on game. It takes exactly the several percent, because after that you risk facing harder mechanics.

Ayrilana.1396:

There’s always an optimum and any change significant enough could alter what that is. That doesn’t mean that they want this, this, and this class to be highly preferred and this and this class to be largely ignored. That’s chosen entirely by the players that feel only the optimal builds are the way to go. For those that don’t, this isn’t as much of an issue.

There is no valid reason to not go for the optimum. Optimization is what have brought humans (as species) to where we currently are. Of course, you can live in the street, or even in the forest, but it’s far less optimal than in a house. Why must players choose in-game equivalent to living in the forest?

Read my post again about necro. I was speaking specfically about the jagged horrors and not the damage. Whether it was required or not to keep pace with other optimal builds is irrelevant to my post.

It’s on the players for believing that only optimal builds are capable of completing the content. Games will always have limitations but there’s more than enough buffer where players do not need the optimum in order to succeed.

Your analogy disregards what I stated while also reinforces it. You only see in extremes which is what I have seen among other die-hard meta only players. It’s always “meta = succeed” and “non-meta = failure”. You never realize that there are builds inbetween including those that are just below what is considered optimal at that time.

There’s nothing wrong with asking for some parity in condi builds, even if you can beat the fight with any class.

I’m not really sure what you’re arguing here …

Then you haven’t read my post(s).

Ayrilana.1396:

Absurdo.8309:

Ayrilana.1396:

AndyS.5630:

Ayrilana.1396:

They removed something that had gone a bit overboard. You can’t honestly believe that being able to summon swarms of jagged horrors, that can be kept alive, which deal a lot of bleeding damage, was actually intended? There’s always a reason to bring a class. It’s just that some people prefer to go with what is the most optimal.

It didn’t go overboard. While that mechanic could be awkward, it was absolutely required one to bring necro DPS to a reasonable level. So yes, the damage dealt by horrors seemed to be intended, even though underlying mechanic was awkward, weird and unintended.

Ayrilana.1396:

Then that’s on the players and not anything within the game. There’s a decently sized margin between what high successful groups are doing and what it would take to fail. It’s more than the several percent you claim. Players very well can control what builds/compositions they have in their group but that by no way means that only those that they choose are what’s viable.

That is exactly on game. It takes exactly the several percent, because after that you risk facing harder mechanics.

Ayrilana.1396:

There’s always an optimum and any change significant enough could alter what that is. That doesn’t mean that they want this, this, and this class to be highly preferred and this and this class to be largely ignored. That’s chosen entirely by the players that feel only the optimal builds are the way to go. For those that don’t, this isn’t as much of an issue.

There is no valid reason to not go for the optimum. Optimization is what have brought humans (as species) to where we currently are. Of course, you can live in the street, or even in the forest, but it’s far less optimal than in a house. Why must players choose in-game equivalent to living in the forest?

Read my post again about necro. I was speaking specfically about the jagged horrors and not the damage. Whether it was required or not to keep pace with other optimal builds is irrelevant to my post.

It’s on the players for believing that only optimal builds are capable of completing the content. Games will always have limitations but there’s more than enough buffer where players do not need the optimum in order to succeed.

Your analogy disregards what I stated while also reinforces it. You only see in extremes which is what I have seen among other die-hard meta only players. It’s always “meta = succeed” and “non-meta = failure”. You never realize that there are builds inbetween including those that are just below what is considered optimal at that time.

There’s nothing wrong with asking for some parity in condi builds, even if you can beat the fight with any class.

I’m not really sure what you’re arguing here …

Then you haven’t read my post(s).

I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but …

You seem to be arguing that lots of different builds can beat raids. Agreed.

That said, there’s nothing wrong with asking for parity between condi builds. Again, not sure why you’re arguing for a 20% nerf in the reaper condi build.

Ayrilana.1396:

Read my post again about necro. I was speaking specfically about the jagged horrors and not the damage. Whether it was required or not to keep pace with other optimal builds is irrelevant to my post.

It’s on the players for believing that only optimal builds are capable of completing the content. Games will always have limitations but there’s more than enough buffer where players do not need the optimum in order to succeed.

Your analogy disregards what I stated while also reinforces it. You only see in extremes which is what I have seen among other die-hard meta only players. It’s always “meta = succeed” and “non-meta = failure”. You never realize that there are builds inbetween including those that are just below what is considered optimal at that time.

When you simulate timed life with health degeneration, you intend that it can be prolonged through healing. So while being awkward, keeping Jagged Horrors alive with massive healing was 100% intended.

Players don’t believe, it’s the result of their trial and error experience. Still, it’s human nature to optimize. Of course, one optimizes with regard to their goals. If someone’s goal is beating with 10x the same class, then bringing 10x the same class is their optimum. Once again, players’ behavior is sufficiently predictable to not blame them for behaving that very predictable way.

I don’t see only in extremes. The diversity was mainly related to DPS classes since like always. So while it’s possible to move to another house, you won’t want to drop electricity, water supply or sanitation.

Ranael.6423:

Sarrs.4831:

My extremely lazy thoughts on raid diversity:

- Boon Duration is too easy to game. Items like Platinum Doubloon, Rune of Leadership are insanely overbudget; when converting to Concentration the extremely overbudgeted nature of the items are revealed.
- This generosity with Boon Duration results in overprevalence of specific boons; chiefly in PvE, Quickness (also an issue in WvW). Quickness 100% uptime should not happen without serious (and arguably overcompensatory) compromises in your composition.

100% Quickness uptime does not make any sense and drastically hinders multiple classes. Chiefly I want to speak about Revenant and Scrapper but there are other examples. Impossible Odds should be a massive DPS boost for a DPS rev but it does nothing. Applied Force should be a reasonable boost for a Scrapper but it does nothing.

There’s also a case to be made for +condition duration effects but those tend to be condition specific (which are more or less fine IMO) or not particularly prevalent.

There’s also a case to be made that a party should not be permanently at 25 might purely through the output of 1 supporter (PS), and that that also significantly reduces the amount of build diversity, but that’s not a battle that I really think needs to be fought at the moment.

I do agree with you that perma quickness does not make sense since the boon was meant to be a extra boost and as you said it makes applied force, impossible odds or fatal frenzy totally obsolete. What is even “worse” is that the character giving perma quickness for AA also gives perma alacrity… and does so without investing that much in boon duration gear.
At least since last patch you need 2 chrono which should have meant a dps loss to compensate the perma bonus… but it turned out it was not because alacrity had a smaller uptime before.

But speaking about support builds : PSEA warriors grants to 5 people (could even be stretched to seven) 1070 power (from 2400 base power), 170 condi damage (around 1600 base depending on classes), 170 precision (8 % crit chance) 170 ferocity and 250 healing power. Ok they do lose dps in this configuration but given what they give they should be around what a chrono does if not lower…

Don’t forget Might gives Condi Damage as well as Power. So that’s 920 condi damage if you’re going to count full might stacks.

Absurdo.8309:

Ayrilana.1396:

Absurdo.8309:

Ayrilana.1396:

AndyS.5630:

Ayrilana.1396:

They removed something that had gone a bit overboard. You can’t honestly believe that being able to summon swarms of jagged horrors, that can be kept alive, which deal a lot of bleeding damage, was actually intended? There’s always a reason to bring a class. It’s just that some people prefer to go with what is the most optimal.

It didn’t go overboard. While that mechanic could be awkward, it was absolutely required one to bring necro DPS to a reasonable level. So yes, the damage dealt by horrors seemed to be intended, even though underlying mechanic was awkward, weird and unintended.

Ayrilana.1396:

Then that’s on the players and not anything within the game. There’s a decently sized margin between what high successful groups are doing and what it would take to fail. It’s more than the several percent you claim. Players very well can control what builds/compositions they have in their group but that by no way means that only those that they choose are what’s viable.

That is exactly on game. It takes exactly the several percent, because after that you risk facing harder mechanics.

Ayrilana.1396:

There’s always an optimum and any change significant enough could alter what that is. That doesn’t mean that they want this, this, and this class to be highly preferred and this and this class to be largely ignored. That’s chosen entirely by the players that feel only the optimal builds are the way to go. For those that don’t, this isn’t as much of an issue.

There is no valid reason to not go for the optimum. Optimization is what have brought humans (as species) to where we currently are. Of course, you can live in the street, or even in the forest, but it’s far less optimal than in a house. Why must players choose in-game equivalent to living in the forest?

Read my post again about necro. I was speaking specfically about the jagged horrors and not the damage. Whether it was required or not to keep pace with other optimal builds is irrelevant to my post.

It’s on the players for believing that only optimal builds are capable of completing the content. Games will always have limitations but there’s more than enough buffer where players do not need the optimum in order to succeed.

Your analogy disregards what I stated while also reinforces it. You only see in extremes which is what I have seen among other die-hard meta only players. It’s always “meta = succeed” and “non-meta = failure”. You never realize that there are builds inbetween including those that are just below what is considered optimal at that time.

There’s nothing wrong with asking for some parity in condi builds, even if you can beat the fight with any class.

I’m not really sure what you’re arguing here …

Then you haven’t read my post(s).

I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but …

You seem to be arguing that lots of different builds can beat raids. Agreed.

That said, there’s nothing wrong with asking for parity between condi builds. Again, not sure why you’re arguing for a 20% nerf in the reaper condi build.

I was never arguing about there being anything wrong about asking for parity between condi builds. This is something you added onto my post.

AndyS.5630:

Ayrilana.1396:

Read my post again about necro. I was speaking specfically about the jagged horrors and not the damage. Whether it was required or not to keep pace with other optimal builds is irrelevant to my post.

It’s on the players for believing that only optimal builds are capable of completing the content. Games will always have limitations but there’s more than enough buffer where players do not need the optimum in order to succeed.

Your analogy disregards what I stated while also reinforces it. You only see in extremes which is what I have seen among other die-hard meta only players. It’s always “meta = succeed” and “non-meta = failure”. You never realize that there are builds inbetween including those that are just below what is considered optimal at that time.

When you simulate timed life with health degeneration, you intend that it can be prolonged through healing. So while being awkward, keeping Jagged Horrors alive with massive healing was 100% intended.

Players don’t believe, it’s the result of their trial and error experience. Still, it’s human nature to optimize. Of course, one optimizes with regard to their goals. If someone’s goal is beating with 10x the same class, then bringing 10x the same class is their optimum. Once again, players’ behavior is sufficiently predictable to not blame them for behaving that very predictable way.

I don’t see only in extremes. The diversity was mainly related to DPS classes since like always. So while it’s possible to move to another house, you won’t want to drop electricity, water supply or sanitation.

It wasn’t intended hence the fix. You can’t assume that everything that can be done within the game is intended otherwise you can use that same argument to conclude that exploits are intended.

Players on the whole don’t trial and error. That’s actually done by a handful of players.

Ayrilana.1396:

AndyS.5630:

Ayrilana.1396:

Read my post again about necro. I was speaking specfically about the jagged horrors and not the damage. Whether it was required or not to keep pace with other optimal builds is irrelevant to my post.

It’s on the players for believing that only optimal builds are capable of completing the content. Games will always have limitations but there’s more than enough buffer where players do not need the optimum in order to succeed.

Your analogy disregards what I stated while also reinforces it. You only see in extremes which is what I have seen among other die-hard meta only players. It’s always “meta = succeed” and “non-meta = failure”. You never realize that there are builds inbetween including those that are just below what is considered optimal at that time.

When you simulate timed life with health degeneration, you intend that it can be prolonged through healing. So while being awkward, keeping Jagged Horrors alive with massive healing was 100% intended.

Players don’t believe, it’s the result of their trial and error experience. Still, it’s human nature to optimize. Of course, one optimizes with regard to their goals. If someone’s goal is beating with 10x the same class, then bringing 10x the same class is their optimum. Once again, players’ behavior is sufficiently predictable to not blame them for behaving that very predictable way.

I don’t see only in extremes. The diversity was mainly related to DPS classes since like always. So while it’s possible to move to another house, you won’t want to drop electricity, water supply or sanitation.

It wasn’t intended hence the fix. You can’t assume that everything that can be done within the game is intended otherwise you can use that same argument to conclude that exploits are intended.

Players on the whole don’t trial and error. That’s actually done by a handful of players.

What lich form bugged since release?

Does the lich form “fix” justify a 20% cut in reaper dps?

Is there anything wrong with asking for a comparable buff or a walk back on the nerf?

Again, I really have no idea what you’re arguing.

Absurdo.8309:

Ayrilana.1396:

AndyS.5630:

Ayrilana.1396:

Read my post again about necro. I was speaking specfically about the jagged horrors and not the damage. Whether it was required or not to keep pace with other optimal builds is irrelevant to my post.

It’s on the players for believing that only optimal builds are capable of completing the content. Games will always have limitations but there’s more than enough buffer where players do not need the optimum in order to succeed.

Your analogy disregards what I stated while also reinforces it. You only see in extremes which is what I have seen among other die-hard meta only players. It’s always “meta = succeed” and “non-meta = failure”. You never realize that there are builds inbetween including those that are just below what is considered optimal at that time.

When you simulate timed life with health degeneration, you intend that it can be prolonged through healing. So while being awkward, keeping Jagged Horrors alive with massive healing was 100% intended.

Players don’t believe, it’s the result of their trial and error experience. Still, it’s human nature to optimize. Of course, one optimizes with regard to their goals. If someone’s goal is beating with 10x the same class, then bringing 10x the same class is their optimum. Once again, players’ behavior is sufficiently predictable to not blame them for behaving that very predictable way.

I don’t see only in extremes. The diversity was mainly related to DPS classes since like always. So while it’s possible to move to another house, you won’t want to drop electricity, water supply or sanitation.

It wasn’t intended hence the fix. You can’t assume that everything that can be done within the game is intended otherwise you can use that same argument to conclude that exploits are intended.

Players on the whole don’t trial and error. That’s actually done by a handful of players.

What lich form bugged since release?

Does the lich form “fix” justify a 20% cut in reaper dps?

Is there anything wrong with asking for a comparable buff or a walk back on the nerf?

Again, I really have no idea what you’re arguing.

The ability to summon jagged horrid and keep them alive as you summon them was unintended which is why they’re limited to a 30 second lifespan.

The DPS that they were getting was a result of an unintended mechanic. If warriors had a skill that let them do crazy amounts of burning damage, because it functioned in a way that was not intended, and then the devs fixed the skill, would you argue against it on the basis of the DPS loss the warriors now received from the fix?

You have no idea what I’m arguing because you’ve not read my posts.

Ayrilana.1396:

Absurdo.8309:

Ayrilana.1396:

AndyS.5630:

Ayrilana.1396:

Read my post again about necro. I was speaking specfically about the jagged horrors and not the damage. Whether it was required or not to keep pace with other optimal builds is irrelevant to my post.

It’s on the players for believing that only optimal builds are capable of completing the content. Games will always have limitations but there’s more than enough buffer where players do not need the optimum in order to succeed.

Your analogy disregards what I stated while also reinforces it. You only see in extremes which is what I have seen among other die-hard meta only players. It’s always “meta = succeed” and “non-meta = failure”. You never realize that there are builds inbetween including those that are just below what is considered optimal at that time.

When you simulate timed life with health degeneration, you intend that it can be prolonged through healing. So while being awkward, keeping Jagged Horrors alive with massive healing was 100% intended.

Players don’t believe, it’s the result of their trial and error experience. Still, it’s human nature to optimize. Of course, one optimizes with regard to their goals. If someone’s goal is beating with 10x the same class, then bringing 10x the same class is their optimum. Once again, players’ behavior is sufficiently predictable to not blame them for behaving that very predictable way.

I don’t see only in extremes. The diversity was mainly related to DPS classes since like always. So while it’s possible to move to another house, you won’t want to drop electricity, water supply or sanitation.

It wasn’t intended hence the fix. You can’t assume that everything that can be done within the game is intended otherwise you can use that same argument to conclude that exploits are intended.

Players on the whole don’t trial and error. That’s actually done by a handful of players.

What lich form bugged since release?

Does the lich form “fix” justify a 20% cut in reaper dps?

Is there anything wrong with asking for a comparable buff or a walk back on the nerf?

Again, I really have no idea what you’re arguing.

The ability to summon jagged horrid and keep them alive as you summon them was unintended which is why they’re limited to a 30 second lifespan.

The DPS that they were getting was a result of an unintended mechanic. If warriors had a skill that let them do crazy amounts of burning damage, because it functioned in a way that was not intended, and then the devs fixed the skill, would you argue against it on the basis of the DPS loss the warriors now received from the fix?

You have no idea what I’m arguing because you’ve not read my posts.

I’m trying, but you’re not helping.

Yes or no: condi reaper should be comparable to other condi builds

Yes or no: condi reaper was comparable to other condi builds pre-nerf

Yes or no: A 20% nerf to condi reaper was not warranted.

Absurdo.8309:

Ayrilana.1396:

Absurdo.8309:

Ayrilana.1396:

AndyS.5630:

Ayrilana.1396:

Read my post again about necro. I was speaking specfically about the jagged horrors and not the damage. Whether it was required or not to keep pace with other optimal builds is irrelevant to my post.

It’s on the players for believing that only optimal builds are capable of completing the content. Games will always have limitations but there’s more than enough buffer where players do not need the optimum in order to succeed.

Your analogy disregards what I stated while also reinforces it. You only see in extremes which is what I have seen among other die-hard meta only players. It’s always “meta = succeed” and “non-meta = failure”. You never realize that there are builds inbetween including those that are just below what is considered optimal at that time.

When you simulate timed life with health degeneration, you intend that it can be prolonged through healing. So while being awkward, keeping Jagged Horrors alive with massive healing was 100% intended.

Players don’t believe, it’s the result of their trial and error experience. Still, it’s human nature to optimize. Of course, one optimizes with regard to their goals. If someone’s goal is beating with 10x the same class, then bringing 10x the same class is their optimum. Once again, players’ behavior is sufficiently predictable to not blame them for behaving that very predictable way.

I don’t see only in extremes. The diversity was mainly related to DPS classes since like always. So while it’s possible to move to another house, you won’t want to drop electricity, water supply or sanitation.

It wasn’t intended hence the fix. You can’t assume that everything that can be done within the game is intended otherwise you can use that same argument to conclude that exploits are intended.

Players on the whole don’t trial and error. That’s actually done by a handful of players.

What lich form bugged since release?

Does the lich form “fix” justify a 20% cut in reaper dps?

Is there anything wrong with asking for a comparable buff or a walk back on the nerf?

Again, I really have no idea what you’re arguing.

The ability to summon jagged horrid and keep them alive as you summon them was unintended which is why they’re limited to a 30 second lifespan.

The DPS that they were getting was a result of an unintended mechanic. If warriors had a skill that let them do crazy amounts of burning damage, because it functioned in a way that was not intended, and then the devs fixed the skill, would you argue against it on the basis of the DPS loss the warriors now received from the fix?

You have no idea what I’m arguing because you’ve not read my posts.

I’m trying, but you’re not helping.

Yes or no: condi reaper should be comparable to other condi builds

Yes or no: condi reaper was comparable to other condi builds pre-nerf

Yes or no: A 20% nerf to condi reaper was not warranted.

My posts were not about whether condi reaper’s DPS should be similar to other condi builds. That’s what you are not understanding.

AndyS.5630:

Obtena.7952:

Yeah, that sounds about right to me … but GW2 isn’t even close to doing that and the tools that Chronos and Revs that got nerfed weren’t achieving that either …

So tell me why again that these changes are bad if the goal is to achieve a healthy game environment?

Because the new state is worse than the old state.

Obtena.7952:

The fact is that the changes they made are actually inline with moving to a more healthy metagame environment and a more sensible, reasonable application of a class skills. Yet, you’re unhappy they did so, while saying they should attempt to do it. So weird when people contradict themselves.

At this rate it may take years to achieve a healthy metagame environment, while individual patches (like this one) can make it unhealthier.

Yet that’s exactly how you should expect these changes to be made … new to MMO’s? It’s unrealistic to expect Anet to allow unintended, excessive effects to continue in the game, even ifyou think it ruins the current state of the game. That’s just sensational posturing.

The fact is that the way it was before was not a healthy game environment; I’ve already explained why a few times. You can pout, but it’s true.

Jerus.4350:

Ranael.6423:

I do agree with you that perma quickness does not make sense since the boon was meant to be a extra boost and as you said it makes applied force, impossible odds or fatal frenzy totally obsolete. What is even “worse” is that the character giving perma quickness for AA also gives perma alacrity… and does so without investing that much in boon duration gear.
At least since last patch you need 2 chrono which should have meant a dps loss to compensate the perma bonus… but it turned out it was not because alacrity had a smaller uptime before.

But speaking about support builds : PSEA warriors grants to 5 people (could even be stretched to seven) 1070 power (from 2400 base power), 170 condi damage (around 1600 base depending on classes), 170 precision (8 % crit chance) 170 ferocity and 250 healing power. Ok they do lose dps in this configuration but given what they give they should be around what a chrono does if not lower…

Don’t forget Might gives Condi Damage as well as Power. So that’s 920 condi damage if you’re going to count full might stacks.

The list was so long that I lost track on some stats xD

fishball.7204:

mazut.4296:

Just tested the “2 mesmer new meta” and it just doesnt work as intended. 50% quickness still missing, so probably its better to have another 2 dps classes instead of mesmers.

Your chronos are just bad then.

Yeah got much better group later that day, still not as good as before. But people keep being confused why KC or Gorseval doesnt die as fast.

mazut.4296:

fishball.7204:

mazut.4296:

Just tested the “2 mesmer new meta” and it just doesnt work as intended. 50% quickness still missing, so probably its better to have another 2 dps classes instead of mesmers.

Your chronos are just bad then.

Yeah got much better group later that day, still not as good as before. But people keep being confused why KC or Gorseval doesnt die as fast.

And you actually need to stand in wells if you want quickness. May not be the mesmers fault.

Absurdo.8309:

mazut.4296:

fishball.7204:

mazut.4296:

Just tested the “2 mesmer new meta” and it just doesnt work as intended. 50% quickness still missing, so probably its better to have another 2 dps classes instead of mesmers.

Your chronos are just bad then.

Yeah got much better group later that day, still not as good as before. But people keep being confused why KC or Gorseval doesnt die as fast.

And you actually need to stand in wells if you want quickness. May not be the mesmers fault.

really, hmm didnt know that…

Just wondering : how messy would it be to cancel subgroups in raid squads?

Things would be less controllable from player side so we should actually bring some covers around and the risk of redundancy would make the picking of support character a tougher choice right?

Not saying I want it, just philosophical speculations…

Ranael.6423:

Just wondering : how messy would it be to cancel subgroups in raid squads?

Things would be less controllable from player side so we should actually bring some covers around and the risk of redundancy would make the picking of support character a tougher choice right?

Not saying I want it, just philosophical speculations…

As in, forcing all ten players to be in the same subgroup?
If you mean that, I think it’s a bad idea. Boon sharing etc. would be an absolute mess.
I liked how it was before, you had 7-2-1, 5-5 and 4-4-2, so you had some freedom in how to set up your comp. Now you’re pretty much locked into 5-5, though I heard 4-4-2 still works, you just… lose a minute worth of dps on average in comparison to before? I assume 7-2-1 is completely busted.

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Ranael.6423:

Just wondering : how messy would it be to cancel subgroups in raid squads?

Things would be less controllable from player side so we should actually bring some covers around and the risk of redundancy would make the picking of support character a tougher choice right?

Not saying I want it, just philosophical speculations…

As in, forcing all ten players to be in the same subgroup?
If you mean that, I think it’s a bad idea. Boon sharing etc. would be an absolute mess.
I liked how it was before, you had 7-2-1, 5-5 and 4-4-2, so you had some freedom in how to set up your comp. Now you’re pretty much locked into 5-5, though I heard 4-4-2 still works, you just… lose a minute worth of dps on average in comparison to before? I assume 7-2-1 is completely busted.

Would also say that 7-2-1 is busted. 7-2-1 had less DPS than 4-4-2 but had more flexibility and you could run it if you just have 1 PS Warrior available.

And if they force 10 Players into one Subgroup they need to raise the 5 Man Cap, otherwise Boonsharing would be a complete Mess and you couldn’t control the Boonsharing anymore.

Ayrilana.1396:

It wasn’t intended hence the fix. You can’t assume that everything that can be done within the game is intended otherwise you can use that same argument to conclude that exploits are intended.

Players on the whole don’t trial and error. That’s actually done by a handful of players.

Degeneration mechanic has been working like that for ages. You prolong lifespan of degenerating units by healing them. This kind of bugs either gets fixed fast (Glyph of Elemental Power) or is ignored until it can be reasonably rebalanced.

There is enough trial and error to make conclusions.

Obtena.7952:

Yet that’s exactly how you should expect these changes to be made … new to MMO’s? It’s unrealistic to expect Anet to allow unintended, excessive effects to continue in the game, even ifyou think it ruins the current state of the game. That’s just sensational posturing.

The fact is that the way it was before was not a healthy game environment; I’ve already explained why a few times. You can pout, but it’s true.

Anet shouldn’t ruin the game in the first place. Jagged Horrors aren’t the only excessive effect. Quickness, Alacrity, 25 stacks of Might are also excessive effects. But they are still “intended” (until next patch?).

AndyS.5630:

Ayrilana.1396:

It wasn’t intended hence the fix. You can’t assume that everything that can be done within the game is intended otherwise you can use that same argument to conclude that exploits are intended.

Players on the whole don’t trial and error. That’s actually done by a handful of players.

Degeneration mechanic has been working like that for ages. You prolong lifespan of degenerating units by healing them. This kind of bugs either gets fixed fast (Glyph of Elemental Power) or is ignored until it can be reasonably rebalanced.

There is enough trial and error to make conclusions.

There’s trial and error done by those handful of players that create the meta. That is all.

What you said does not dispute what I said in my post. A good example being AFK farming which uses a mechanics and such that by themselves are intended but not when you put them together. The same can be applied at a lesser extent to bug that are not necessarily what you would consider an exploit. Just because healing the life of something because it has health degeneration doesn’t mean that every scenario involving that is intended.

And again, you keep fixating on this which didn’t have anything to do with my argument.

AndyS.5630:

Ayrilana.1396:

It wasn’t intended hence the fix. You can’t assume that everything that can be done within the game is intended otherwise you can use that same argument to conclude that exploits are intended.

Players on the whole don’t trial and error. That’s actually done by a handful of players.

Degeneration mechanic has been working like that for ages. You prolong lifespan of degenerating units by healing them. This kind of bugs either gets fixed fast (Glyph of Elemental Power) or is ignored until it can be reasonably rebalanced.

There is enough trial and error to make conclusions.

Obtena.7952:

Yet that’s exactly how you should expect these changes to be made … new to MMO’s? It’s unrealistic to expect Anet to allow unintended, excessive effects to continue in the game, even ifyou think it ruins the current state of the game. That’s just sensational posturing.

The fact is that the way it was before was not a healthy game environment; I’ve already explained why a few times. You can pout, but it’s true.

Anet shouldn’t ruin the game in the first place. Jagged Horrors aren’t the only excessive effect. Quickness, Alacrity, 25 stacks of Might are also excessive effects. But they are still “intended” (until next patch?).

In all honesty, at this point I don’t think we’ll ever see PS getting gutted.

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

As in, forcing all ten players to be in the same subgroup?

Yes that is exactly what I meant
I know it would be less controllable but it should then be accompanied by more micro management during the encounter. Just as an example, if you are not sure to be under quickness 100% of time, then traits like applied force or skill like impossible odds become more valuable and, if possible will need to be used when it is more profitable.

As said I am not sure if it would create a worse environment or a more diverse one. I am just wondering if it would not allow more profession to have their moment or encounter where they shine more than others, making more group composition viable.

My feeling for last update was that devs wanted support character to invest in different gear to become more potent while decreasing either their dps (swapping stats from berserker) or their support (facet of nature, celestial avatar, SOI) in DPS gear. In the end it kicked Rev out and mesmers are still suited in berserker gear but we need 2. Some druids have swapped their stats but I heard that a duo DPS druid is still more than viable. So yes the composition is a bit more rigid than before but I do not think it was the expected consequence.

That is why I was wondering if they would have made boon distribution less controllable, would it have the same effect or would the composition have shifted more dramatically?

Ayrilana.1396:

AndyS.5630:

Ayrilana.1396:

It wasn’t intended hence the fix. You can’t assume that everything that can be done within the game is intended otherwise you can use that same argument to conclude that exploits are intended.

Players on the whole don’t trial and error. That’s actually done by a handful of players.

Degeneration mechanic has been working like that for ages. You prolong lifespan of degenerating units by healing them. This kind of bugs either gets fixed fast (Glyph of Elemental Power) or is ignored until it can be reasonably rebalanced.

There is enough trial and error to make conclusions.

There’s trial and error done by those handful of players that create the meta. That is all.

What you said does not dispute what I said in my post. A good example being AFK farming which uses a mechanics and such that by themselves are intended but not when you put them together. The same can be applied at a lesser extent to bug that are not necessarily what you would consider an exploit. Just because healing the life of something because it has health degeneration doesn’t mean that every scenario involving that is intended.

And again, you keep fixating on this which didn’t have anything to do with my argument.

I think I’m starting to understand a bit more …

Ok, let’s assume that anet never intended these minions to stay alive forever (to be clear, having another player actively heal them). Fine, I’ll give you that.

BUT, anet did intend to nerf that behavior. That is, for some reason, they think not having these minions is better than having these minions, regardless of their original intentions (or lack thereof).

What most people are arguing is that anet never expressed why this “minor fix” is better than the status quo. That, and it represents a serious nerf for necros.

Your other examples aren’t analogous. (And, well, I hate metaphors in these forums because posters stretch them beyond belief). It’s ok to make a value judgment that afk farming should not be rewarded. It’s ok to fix a skill that has 100k dps.

Arguing what anet originally intended doesn’t matter here, because anet expressed new intentions in changing lich form. That’s what players are pushing back against.

Absurdo.8309:

Ayrilana.1396:

AndyS.5630:

Ayrilana.1396:

It wasn’t intended hence the fix. You can’t assume that everything that can be done within the game is intended otherwise you can use that same argument to conclude that exploits are intended.

Players on the whole don’t trial and error. That’s actually done by a handful of players.

Degeneration mechanic has been working like that for ages. You prolong lifespan of degenerating units by healing them. This kind of bugs either gets fixed fast (Glyph of Elemental Power) or is ignored until it can be reasonably rebalanced.

There is enough trial and error to make conclusions.

There’s trial and error done by those handful of players that create the meta. That is all.

What you said does not dispute what I said in my post. A good example being AFK farming which uses a mechanics and such that by themselves are intended but not when you put them together. The same can be applied at a lesser extent to bug that are not necessarily what you would consider an exploit. Just because healing the life of something because it has health degeneration doesn’t mean that every scenario involving that is intended.

And again, you keep fixating on this which didn’t have anything to do with my argument.

I think I’m starting to understand a bit more …

Ok, let’s assume that anet never intended these minions to stay alive forever (to be clear, having another player actively heal them). Fine, I’ll give you that.

BUT, anet did intend to nerf that behavior. That is, for some reason, they think not having these minions is better than having these minions, regardless of their original intentions (or lack thereof).

What most people are arguing is that anet never expressed why this “minor fix” is better than the status quo. That, and it represents a serious nerf for necros.

Your other examples aren’t analogous. (And, well, I hate metaphors in these forums because posters stretch them beyond belief). It’s ok to make a value judgment that afk farming should not be rewarded. It’s ok to fix a skill that has 100k dps.

Arguing what anet originally intended doesn’t matter here, because anet expressed new intentions in changing lich form. That’s what players are pushing back against.

It doesn’t matter whether they explained why. The mechanic was inintended. They don’t have to explain themselves just because players chose to make a meta out of it. My metaphor was to show you that just because mechanics by themselves may be intended, how they’re used under some circumstances can be unintended. The change to Lich form was to fix what wasn’t intended.

And like I said before, this really has nothing to do with my argument earlier and is just diverting the discussion.

AndyS.5630:

Anet shouldn’t ruin the game in the first place. Jagged Horrors aren’t the only excessive effect. Quickness, Alacrity, 25 stacks of Might are also excessive effects. But they are still “intended” (until next patch?).

That’s true, there are lots of excessive effects and Anet decides which ones are intended or not. Anet decided that stacking boon and duration wasn’t. so they made changes. Seems like a perfectly reasonable way to approach game changes to me, given that it’s their prerogative to do that. So what’s the problem here? … other than your excessively sensational interpretation that this ‘ruins’ the game?

Ayrilana.1396:

Absurdo.8309:

Ayrilana.1396:

AndyS.5630:

Ayrilana.1396:

It wasn’t intended hence the fix. You can’t assume that everything that can be done within the game is intended otherwise you can use that same argument to conclude that exploits are intended.

Players on the whole don’t trial and error. That’s actually done by a handful of players.

Degeneration mechanic has been working like that for ages. You prolong lifespan of degenerating units by healing them. This kind of bugs either gets fixed fast (Glyph of Elemental Power) or is ignored until it can be reasonably rebalanced.

There is enough trial and error to make conclusions.

There’s trial and error done by those handful of players that create the meta. That is all.

What you said does not dispute what I said in my post. A good example being AFK farming which uses a mechanics and such that by themselves are intended but not when you put them together. The same can be applied at a lesser extent to bug that are not necessarily what you would consider an exploit. Just because healing the life of something because it has health degeneration doesn’t mean that every scenario involving that is intended.

And again, you keep fixating on this which didn’t have anything to do with my argument.

I think I’m starting to understand a bit more …

Ok, let’s assume that anet never intended these minions to stay alive forever (to be clear, having another player actively heal them). Fine, I’ll give you that.

BUT, anet did intend to nerf that behavior. That is, for some reason, they think not having these minions is better than having these minions, regardless of their original intentions (or lack thereof).

What most people are arguing is that anet never expressed why this “minor fix” is better than the status quo. That, and it represents a serious nerf for necros.

Your other examples aren’t analogous. (And, well, I hate metaphors in these forums because posters stretch them beyond belief). It’s ok to make a value judgment that afk farming should not be rewarded. It’s ok to fix a skill that has 100k dps.

Arguing what anet originally intended doesn’t matter here, because anet expressed new intentions in changing lich form. That’s what players are pushing back against.

It doesn’t matter whether they explained why. The mechanic was inintended. They don’t have to explain themselves just because players chose to make a meta out of it. My metaphor was to show you that just because mechanics by themselves may be intended, how they’re used under some circumstances can be unintended. The change to Lich form was to fix what wasn’t intended.

And like I said before, this really has nothing to do with my argument earlier and is just diverting the discussion.

Please explain why the lich form nerf makes gw2 a better game. I think the game was better before the nerf (as do other players).

And if this is a side discussion, I have no idea what your main point is. Can I get a link or a one sentence summary?

What, as a Necro, is also irritating, is the Fact that Anet said " Necro is faring well, we increase the viability of Power Necros and do some Minor Bug Fixes", while being too afraid to really Buff the Necro Damage and not fixing any Bugs ( at least not in the Patchnotes ).
Instead the Horrors get nerfed without any explanation or compensation. Seeing what Anet said, they see nerfing Necros as " Minor Bug Fixes ". At least this is the impression i get from the Text.

Absurdo.8309:

Ayrilana.1396:

Absurdo.8309:

Ayrilana.1396:

AndyS.5630:

Ayrilana.1396:

It wasn’t intended hence the fix. You can’t assume that everything that can be done within the game is intended otherwise you can use that same argument to conclude that exploits are intended.

Players on the whole don’t trial and error. That’s actually done by a handful of players.

Degeneration mechanic has been working like that for ages. You prolong lifespan of degenerating units by healing them. This kind of bugs either gets fixed fast (Glyph of Elemental Power) or is ignored until it can be reasonably rebalanced.

There is enough trial and error to make conclusions.

There’s trial and error done by those handful of players that create the meta. That is all.

What you said does not dispute what I said in my post. A good example being AFK farming which uses a mechanics and such that by themselves are intended but not when you put them together. The same can be applied at a lesser extent to bug that are not necessarily what you would consider an exploit. Just because healing the life of something because it has health degeneration doesn’t mean that every scenario involving that is intended.

And again, you keep fixating on this which didn’t have anything to do with my argument.

I think I’m starting to understand a bit more …

Ok, let’s assume that anet never intended these minions to stay alive forever (to be clear, having another player actively heal them). Fine, I’ll give you that.

BUT, anet did intend to nerf that behavior. That is, for some reason, they think not having these minions is better than having these minions, regardless of their original intentions (or lack thereof).

What most people are arguing is that anet never expressed why this “minor fix” is better than the status quo. That, and it represents a serious nerf for necros.

Your other examples aren’t analogous. (And, well, I hate metaphors in these forums because posters stretch them beyond belief). It’s ok to make a value judgment that afk farming should not be rewarded. It’s ok to fix a skill that has 100k dps.

Arguing what anet originally intended doesn’t matter here, because anet expressed new intentions in changing lich form. That’s what players are pushing back against.

It doesn’t matter whether they explained why. The mechanic was inintended. They don’t have to explain themselves just because players chose to make a meta out of it. My metaphor was to show you that just because mechanics by themselves may be intended, how they’re used under some circumstances can be unintended. The change to Lich form was to fix what wasn’t intended.

And like I said before, this really has nothing to do with my argument earlier and is just diverting the discussion.

Please explain why the lich form nerf makes gw2 a better game. I think the game was better before the nerf (as do other players).

And if this is a side discussion, I have no idea what your main point is. Can I get a link or a one sentence summary?

Whether or not fixing the unintended mechanic makes for a better game has nothing to do with my original argument. You can find my main argument near the beginning of this thread. It got diverted when someone went specific with the necro fix and then went further off when another player misread my post and focused on damage.

Ayrilana.1396:

Absurdo.8309:

Ayrilana.1396:

Absurdo.8309:

Ayrilana.1396:

AndyS.5630:

Ayrilana.1396:

It wasn’t intended hence the fix. You can’t assume that everything that can be done within the game is intended otherwise you can use that same argument to conclude that exploits are intended.

Players on the whole don’t trial and error. That’s actually done by a handful of players.

Degeneration mechanic has been working like that for ages. You prolong lifespan of degenerating units by healing them. This kind of bugs either gets fixed fast (Glyph of Elemental Power) or is ignored until it can be reasonably rebalanced.

There is enough trial and error to make conclusions.

There’s trial and error done by those handful of players that create the meta. That is all.

What you said does not dispute what I said in my post. A good example being AFK farming which uses a mechanics and such that by themselves are intended but not when you put them together. The same can be applied at a lesser extent to bug that are not necessarily what you would consider an exploit. Just because healing the life of something because it has health degeneration doesn’t mean that every scenario involving that is intended.

And again, you keep fixating on this which didn’t have anything to do with my argument.

I think I’m starting to understand a bit more …

Ok, let’s assume that anet never intended these minions to stay alive forever (to be clear, having another player actively heal them). Fine, I’ll give you that.

BUT, anet did intend to nerf that behavior. That is, for some reason, they think not having these minions is better than having these minions, regardless of their original intentions (or lack thereof).

What most people are arguing is that anet never expressed why this “minor fix” is better than the status quo. That, and it represents a serious nerf for necros.

Your other examples aren’t analogous. (And, well, I hate metaphors in these forums because posters stretch them beyond belief). It’s ok to make a value judgment that afk farming should not be rewarded. It’s ok to fix a skill that has 100k dps.

Arguing what anet originally intended doesn’t matter here, because anet expressed new intentions in changing lich form. That’s what players are pushing back against.

It doesn’t matter whether they explained why. The mechanic was inintended. They don’t have to explain themselves just because players chose to make a meta out of it. My metaphor was to show you that just because mechanics by themselves may be intended, how they’re used under some circumstances can be unintended. The change to Lich form was to fix what wasn’t intended.

And like I said before, this really has nothing to do with my argument earlier and is just diverting the discussion.

Please explain why the lich form nerf makes gw2 a better game. I think the game was better before the nerf (as do other players).

And if this is a side discussion, I have no idea what your main point is. Can I get a link or a one sentence summary?

Whether or not fixing the unintended mechanic makes for a better game has nothing to do with my original argument. You can find my main argument near the beginning of this thread. It got diverted when someone went specific with the necro fix and then went further off when another player misread my post and focused on damage.

So I looked through the first couple of pages —

I’m not even sure why you’re arguing with us. You seem to think that condi necro deserves a buff to its previous state, just not with minions.

It’s probably easier to revert the change, at least for now. Still, not sure why you engaged in this discussion if you don’t really care about it.

Absurdo.8309:

Ayrilana.1396:

Absurdo.8309:

Ayrilana.1396:

Absurdo.8309:

Ayrilana.1396:

AndyS.5630:

Ayrilana.1396:

It wasn’t intended hence the fix. You can’t assume that everything that can be done within the game is intended otherwise you can use that same argument to conclude that exploits are intended.

Players on the whole don’t trial and error. That’s actually done by a handful of players.

Degeneration mechanic has been working like that for ages. You prolong lifespan of degenerating units by healing them. This kind of bugs either gets fixed fast (Glyph of Elemental Power) or is ignored until it can be reasonably rebalanced.

There is enough trial and error to make conclusions.

There’s trial and error done by those handful of players that create the meta. That is all.

What you said does not dispute what I said in my post. A good example being AFK farming which uses a mechanics and such that by themselves are intended but not when you put them together. The same can be applied at a lesser extent to bug that are not necessarily what you would consider an exploit. Just because healing the life of something because it has health degeneration doesn’t mean that every scenario involving that is intended.

And again, you keep fixating on this which didn’t have anything to do with my argument.

I think I’m starting to understand a bit more …

Ok, let’s assume that anet never intended these minions to stay alive forever (to be clear, having another player actively heal them). Fine, I’ll give you that.

BUT, anet did intend to nerf that behavior. That is, for some reason, they think not having these minions is better than having these minions, regardless of their original intentions (or lack thereof).

What most people are arguing is that anet never expressed why this “minor fix” is better than the status quo. That, and it represents a serious nerf for necros.

Your other examples aren’t analogous. (And, well, I hate metaphors in these forums because posters stretch them beyond belief). It’s ok to make a value judgment that afk farming should not be rewarded. It’s ok to fix a skill that has 100k dps.

Arguing what anet originally intended doesn’t matter here, because anet expressed new intentions in changing lich form. That’s what players are pushing back against.

It doesn’t matter whether they explained why. The mechanic was inintended. They don’t have to explain themselves just because players chose to make a meta out of it. My metaphor was to show you that just because mechanics by themselves may be intended, how they’re used under some circumstances can be unintended. The change to Lich form was to fix what wasn’t intended.

And like I said before, this really has nothing to do with my argument earlier and is just diverting the discussion.

Please explain why the lich form nerf makes gw2 a better game. I think the game was better before the nerf (as do other players).

And if this is a side discussion, I have no idea what your main point is. Can I get a link or a one sentence summary?

Whether or not fixing the unintended mechanic makes for a better game has nothing to do with my original argument. You can find my main argument near the beginning of this thread. It got diverted when someone went specific with the necro fix and then went further off when another player misread my post and focused on damage.

So I looked through the first couple of pages —

I’m not even sure why you’re arguing with us. You seem to think that condi necro deserves a buff to its previous state, just not with minions.

It’s probably easier to revert the change, at least for now. Still, not sure why you engaged in this discussion if you don’t really care about it.

I never said that so you’re likely reading someone else’s post. I engaged in this discussion before necro was brought up and involved me.

Ayrilana.1396:

I never said that so you’re likely reading someone else’s post. I engaged in this discussion before necro was brought up and involved me.

It’s really hard to discuss anything with you when you won’t even say what you want.

Here’s your first post asserting something :

Ayrilana.1396:

Balancing shouldn’t be based on what is or isn’t meta. It should be based on the classes as a whole. There are a lot of players that are so fixated on the optimal builds that they forget those are not the only builds that can be successful. There could even be builds that are only suboptimal by a small degree.

The first response, bringing up condi necro:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Ayrilana.1396:

Balancing shouldn’t be based on what is or isn’t meta. It should be based on the classes as a whole. There are a lot of players that are so fixated on the optimal builds that they forget those are not the only builds that can be successful. There could even be builds that are only suboptimal by a small degree.

Balance should be based around keeping all the classes on a same level so that it makes sense to pick either of them. This isn’t the case. I mean look at necro, they now had almost a year of being decent picks as condi, now they’re back to the shelves like it was for all the time before HoT-release (a place power necro never left, btw)

And your thoughts on the lich form nerf:

Ayrilana.1396:

Absurdo.8309:

Ayrilana.1396:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Ayrilana.1396:

Balancing shouldn’t be based on what is or isn’t meta. It should be based on the classes as a whole. There are a lot of players that are so fixated on the optimal builds that they forget those are not the only builds that can be successful. There could even be builds that are only suboptimal by a small degree.

Balance should be based around keeping all the classes on a same level so that it makes sense to pick either of them. This isn’t the case. I mean look at necro, they now had almost a year of being decent picks as condi, now they’re back to the shelves like it was for all the time before HoT-release (a place power necro never left, btw)

Which they could always improve on.

But instead, they nerfed condi necro 20% and buffed power necro 0%.

I think it’s a shame that, in 10 person content, the optimal composition is two 5-person squads. It should be different than 2 parties.

It was different before. And every class (except engie) had a place in the squad. That’s not really the case anymore.

They could have done more. The jagged horror thing was definitely something that wasn’t intended and I pretty much expected it to go away sooner or later. They could have bumped up condition damage assuming that the unintended effect of the jagged horrors wasn’t putting the condition damage above what they wanted it to be at.

I’m not sure why you’re arguing against people who say condi necro is in a bad place.

Absurdo.8309:

Ayrilana.1396:

I never said that so you’re likely reading someone else’s post. I engaged in this discussion before necro was brought up and involved me.

It’s really hard to discuss anything with you when you won’t even say what you want.

Here’s your first post asserting something :

Ayrilana.1396:

Balancing shouldn’t be based on what is or isn’t meta. It should be based on the classes as a whole. There are a lot of players that are so fixated on the optimal builds that they forget those are not the only builds that can be successful. There could even be builds that are only suboptimal by a small degree.

The first response, bringing up condi necro:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Ayrilana.1396:

Balancing shouldn’t be based on what is or isn’t meta. It should be based on the classes as a whole. There are a lot of players that are so fixated on the optimal builds that they forget those are not the only builds that can be successful. There could even be builds that are only suboptimal by a small degree.

Balance should be based around keeping all the classes on a same level so that it makes sense to pick either of them. This isn’t the case. I mean look at necro, they now had almost a year of being decent picks as condi, now they’re back to the shelves like it was for all the time before HoT-release (a place power necro never left, btw)

And your thoughts on the lich form nerf:

Ayrilana.1396:

Absurdo.8309:

Ayrilana.1396:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Ayrilana.1396:

Balancing shouldn’t be based on what is or isn’t meta. It should be based on the classes as a whole. There are a lot of players that are so fixated on the optimal builds that they forget those are not the only builds that can be successful. There could even be builds that are only suboptimal by a small degree.

Balance should be based around keeping all the classes on a same level so that it makes sense to pick either of them. This isn’t the case. I mean look at necro, they now had almost a year of being decent picks as condi, now they’re back to the shelves like it was for all the time before HoT-release (a place power necro never left, btw)

Which they could always improve on.

But instead, they nerfed condi necro 20% and buffed power necro 0%.

I think it’s a shame that, in 10 person content, the optimal composition is two 5-person squads. It should be different than 2 parties.

It was different before. And every class (except engie) had a place in the squad. That’s not really the case anymore.

They could have done more. The jagged horror thing was definitely something that wasn’t intended and I pretty much expected it to go away sooner or later. They could have bumped up condition damage assuming that the unintended effect of the jagged horrors wasn’t putting the condition damage above what they wanted it to be at.

I’m not sure why you’re arguing against people who say condi necro is in a bad place.

I’m not….

Had you read all of my posts, you would have seen that I was arguing that it was fairly obvious that the jagged horror mechanic would eventually get fixed. I included the part about necro being buffed as a sign of being sympathetic. It really has nothing to do with my argument though. I’m not arguing about specific classes but the entire meta itself whether that be builds or team comps.

Ayrilana.1396:

I’m not….

Had you read all of my posts, you would have seen that I was arguing that it was fairly obvious that the jagged horror mechanic would eventually get fixed. I included the part about necro being buffed as a sign of being sympathetic. It really has nothing to do with my argument though. I’m not arguing about specific classes but the entire meta itself whether that be builds or team comps.

Look, I’ve read your posts. I hate having to summarize your argument for you (because you won’t even after a page of posts), but it seems to be that people over-emphasize the meta, because some sub-optimal builds perform close to the meta.

I think you’re missing the point, at least when it comes to necros. Prior to the nerf, there were good reasons to take necros on fights like gor, sab, sloth, and xera even though they were sub-optimal. Post nerf, their dps is so bad that it’s not really worth bringing for these fights.

That’s why posters say you need to keep other classes and the meta in mind when you balance, because you risk making sub-optimal classes even more sub-optimal, that no group wants them any more.

It makes your responses on necro so puzzling.

Ayrilana.1396:

cranos.5913:

I honestly think so yes. Not necessarily equal, as classes all have their own strengths through utility ofc, but within a decent margin. IMO there should never be a scenario where one can honestly say that there’s 0 reason to bring a class. I find reaper a prime example here. The way it got absolutely gutted is something that should’ve never happened, especially considering the lack of utility.

They removed something that had gone a bit overboard. You can’t honestly believe that being able to summon swarms of jagged horrors, that can be kept alive, which deal a lot of bleeding damage, was actually intended? There’s always a reason to bring a class. It’s just that some people prefer to go with what is the most optimal.

Gonna have to agree with Absurdo concerning the necro nerf. Nerf! not bug fix: stopping movement after rolling was a bug, glyph of elemental power stacking burns when description said it would share cooldown was a bug, but this, nothing about the skill description neither about the jagged horrors was buggy or written wrong, they simply chose to basically remove the elite from play (the other elites, as they must know, are already out of play mostly, so necros are without decent elite just like elem).

Also, the minions didn’t really make or break anything even as 15 or more stacked: you’d still die to every single mechanic in any mode if you weren’t careful. They didn’t truly cleave that much on fractals, as you’d still see players going down to ettin on uncategorized and dying to lava elementals at volcano. They also did not bring that much damage to the necro table. We could barely keep up with the other condi builds by playing a necro, and now all it takes is anyone who is not a mesmer to be a better option than necro.

There’s also the argument that it was overboard to just summon a ton of AI and let them cleave stuff for you. This is the only sound argument but it fails to address how turrets or phantasms are so different; even if they don’t stay alive much like jagged horrors did, they were certainly not on a 180 secs cooldown, and a shatter mesmer can overwhelm an enemy by spamming phantasms much faster than any minion master build.

Lastly, the death magic trait is clearly inspired by GW1’s own death magic: you kill things, you use the dead things to spam minions, and your whole rotation is dependant upon the minions. Being a minion master player was highly unpopular due to micromanagement back in GW1 (trust me, you probably don’t want the option to further control/use your minions with utilities/etc. if they do it even barely similar to what it was before), but minion masters controlled by AI were pretty much used everywhere because of their effectiveness in cleaving and holding off melee damage. While GW2 is a whole different game, they did get some inspiration there: you can stack toughness from your undead “army” (not much of an army now), use them to blow up on someone’s face and deal poison damage, or you can use them to control and transfer conditions, which really should be a necromancer specialty (other classes can probably do just as much or more now even if you take plague signet). Well, you could do all that very effectively, but now you can only do all that for 30 seconds every 3 minutes, with a couple rats from “Rise!” here or there popping up just to say hi. So, I suppose the very 1-1-1 traitline for death magic was actually unintended, or at least the power creep from HoT nullified it, because it just can’t be used for jack now.

Absurdo.8309:

Ayrilana.1396:

I’m not….

Had you read all of my posts, you would have seen that I was arguing that it was fairly obvious that the jagged horror mechanic would eventually get fixed. I included the part about necro being buffed as a sign of being sympathetic. It really has nothing to do with my argument though. I’m not arguing about specific classes but the entire meta itself whether that be builds or team comps.

Look, I’ve read your posts. I hate having to summarize your argument for you (because you won’t even after a page of posts), but it seems to be that people over-emphasize the meta, because some sub-optimal builds perform close to the meta.

I think you’re missing the point, at least when it comes to necros. Prior to the nerf, there were good reasons to take necros on fights like gor, sab, sloth, and xera even though they were sub-optimal. Post nerf, their dps is so bad that it’s not really worth bringing for these fights.

That’s why posters say you need to keep other classes and the meta in mind when you balance, because you risk making sub-optimal classes even more sub-optimal, that no group wants them any more.

It makes your responses on necro so puzzling.

Ayrilana.1396:

cranos.5913:

I honestly think so yes. Not necessarily equal, as classes all have their own strengths through utility ofc, but within a decent margin. IMO there should never be a scenario where one can honestly say that there’s 0 reason to bring a class. I find reaper a prime example here. The way it got absolutely gutted is something that should’ve never happened, especially considering the lack of utility.

They removed something that had gone a bit overboard. You can’t honestly believe that being able to summon swarms of jagged horrors, that can be kept alive, which deal a lot of bleeding damage, was actually intended? There’s always a reason to bring a class. It’s just that some people prefer to go with what is the most optimal.

Like I’ve stated several times already, necro was brought because of an unintended mechanic that allowed them to create tons on jagged horrors to tank while stacking bleeds. I’d hardly consider fixing something like that as a nerf otherwise why not just call fixing the glyph of elemental power as a nerf too. Or fixing scoring earth many months ago as a nerf. Or that fall damage thing that could kill other players as a nerf. This is the point that you’re missing which I have mentioned several times.

There will always be a meta which involves the most optimal builds and group composition. Those that are not the best are excluded no matter how close they may be. Let’s assume that Ele can now stack might up to 8 times without losing DPS and that sroppibg the warrior allows them to maintain full might stacks on everyone and group DPS is increased by 2K. Those that favor the meta would go with the 3 Ele per team comp and then consider the previous comp unviable. That’s pretty much sums them up.

You can buff other classes but they’ll still go with what team comp is the strongest no matter how close. Why not just nerf Ele’s damage down so that other classes are more equal. No reason to add even more power creep so they can be equitable to Ele. Not to mention the balancing implications that there would be in other game modes.

And as I had said, I was showing sympathy towards those that felt necro was undesirable and saying that Anet could always buff them. I was trying to come off as less harsh but my mistake. Next time I won’t make that mistake again. It was in no way part of my argument.

Ayrilana.1396:

Like I’ve stated several times already, necro was brought because of an unintended mechanic that allowed them to create tons on jagged horrors to tank while stacking bleeds. I’d hardly consider fixing something like that as a nerf otherwise why not just call fixing the glyph of elemental power as a nerf too. Or fixing scoring earth many months ago as a nerf. Or that fall damage thing that could kill other players as a nerf. This is the point that you’re missing which I have mentioned several times.

There will always be a meta which involves the most optimal builds and group composition. Those that are not the best are excluded no matter how close they may be. Let’s assume that Ele can now stack might up to 8 times without losing DPS and that sroppibg the warrior allows them to maintain full might stacks on everyone and group DPS is increased by 2K. Those that favor the meta would go with the 3 Ele per team comp and then consider the previous comp unviable. That’s pretty much sums them up.

You can buff other classes but they’ll still go with what team comp is the strongest no matter how close. Why not just nerf Ele’s damage down so that other classes are more equal. No reason to add even more power creep so they can be equitable to Ele. Not to mention the balancing implications that there would be in other game modes.

And as I had said, I was showing sympathy towards those that felt necro was undesirable and saying that Anet could always buff them. I was trying to come off as less harsh but my mistake. Next time I won’t make that mistake again. It was in no way part of my argument.

Of course players will always tend towards the strongest classes in a particular fight. The issue is that “the strongest classes” are the same for every fight in the only raid. I don’t think anyone would argue that the previous patch had a balanced and diverse raid meta, but it’s certainly true that the recent patch was a step backwards in that regard.

Unfortunately just nerfing ele would do little, because despite being the best personal DPS in most fights, its group DPS is still substantially worse than warrior, mesmer, and druid.

Ayrilana.1396:

Absurdo.8309:

Ayrilana.1396:

I’m not….

Had you read all of my posts, you would have seen that I was arguing that it was fairly obvious that the jagged horror mechanic would eventually get fixed. I included the part about necro being buffed as a sign of being sympathetic. It really has nothing to do with my argument though. I’m not arguing about specific classes but the entire meta itself whether that be builds or team comps.

Look, I’ve read your posts. I hate having to summarize your argument for you (because you won’t even after a page of posts), but it seems to be that people over-emphasize the meta, because some sub-optimal builds perform close to the meta.

I think you’re missing the point, at least when it comes to necros. Prior to the nerf, there were good reasons to take necros on fights like gor, sab, sloth, and xera even though they were sub-optimal. Post nerf, their dps is so bad that it’s not really worth bringing for these fights.

That’s why posters say you need to keep other classes and the meta in mind when you balance, because you risk making sub-optimal classes even more sub-optimal, that no group wants them any more.

It makes your responses on necro so puzzling.

Ayrilana.1396:

cranos.5913:

I honestly think so yes. Not necessarily equal, as classes all have their own strengths through utility ofc, but within a decent margin. IMO there should never be a scenario where one can honestly say that there’s 0 reason to bring a class. I find reaper a prime example here. The way it got absolutely gutted is something that should’ve never happened, especially considering the lack of utility.

They removed something that had gone a bit overboard. You can’t honestly believe that being able to summon swarms of jagged horrors, that can be kept alive, which deal a lot of bleeding damage, was actually intended? There’s always a reason to bring a class. It’s just that some people prefer to go with what is the most optimal.

Like I’ve stated several times already, necro was brought because of an unintended mechanic that allowed them to create tons on jagged horrors to tank while stacking bleeds. I’d hardly consider fixing something like that as a nerf otherwise why not just call fixing the glyph of elemental power as a nerf too. Or fixing scoring earth many months ago as a nerf. Or that fall damage thing that could kill other players as a nerf. This is the point that you’re missing which I have mentioned several times.

There will always be a meta which involves the most optimal builds and group composition. Those that are not the best are excluded no matter how close they may be. Let’s assume that Ele can now stack might up to 8 times without losing DPS and that sroppibg the warrior allows them to maintain full might stacks on everyone and group DPS is increased by 2K. Those that favor the meta would go with the 3 Ele per team comp and then consider the previous comp unviable. That’s pretty much sums them up.

You can buff other classes but they’ll still go with what team comp is the strongest no matter how close. Why not just nerf Ele’s damage down so that other classes are more equal. No reason to add even more power creep so they can be equitable to Ele. Not to mention the balancing implications that there would be in other game modes.

And as I had said, I was showing sympathy towards those that felt necro was undesirable and saying that Anet could always buff them. I was trying to come off as less harsh but my mistake. Next time I won’t make that mistake again. It was in no way part of my argument.

I think you’re misrepresenting a lot here.

First, if you can’t see the difference between a skill that does 100k burn ticks, or a fall damage trait that insta-kills players,

with a skill that wasn’t changed for years, and doesn’t put necro above other condi classes, then there’s not much more to discuss.

Second, stating that players only go with the meta is just plain false. Pre-patch, there were plenty of reasons to go with necro on fights like gor, sab, sloth, and xera even though they weren’t optimal. For example, in gor, bringing a necro would almost guarantee that gor wouldn’t eat a minion, because it would be epi’ed. Or, in sloth, necro helped keep condis under control.

But now, necros are so far removed from other dps classes, that it’s just sad. Necro utility will not outweigh a 5k to 10k dps loss for most fights.

So yes, the meta does matter, even if you don’t plan on following it. It matters how far you are from the meta. It’s ok to trade off for utility, but if the dps loss is too great then it’s just not worth it.

Dinosaurs.8674:

Ayrilana.1396:

Like I’ve stated several times already, necro was brought because of an unintended mechanic that allowed them to create tons on jagged horrors to tank while stacking bleeds. I’d hardly consider fixing something like that as a nerf otherwise why not just call fixing the glyph of elemental power as a nerf too. Or fixing scoring earth many months ago as a nerf. Or that fall damage thing that could kill other players as a nerf. This is the point that you’re missing which I have mentioned several times.

There will always be a meta which involves the most optimal builds and group composition. Those that are not the best are excluded no matter how close they may be. Let’s assume that Ele can now stack might up to 8 times without losing DPS and that sroppibg the warrior allows them to maintain full might stacks on everyone and group DPS is increased by 2K. Those that favor the meta would go with the 3 Ele per team comp and then consider the previous comp unviable. That’s pretty much sums them up.

You can buff other classes but they’ll still go with what team comp is the strongest no matter how close. Why not just nerf Ele’s damage down so that other classes are more equal. No reason to add even more power creep so they can be equitable to Ele. Not to mention the balancing implications that there would be in other game modes.

And as I had said, I was showing sympathy towards those that felt necro was undesirable and saying that Anet could always buff them. I was trying to come off as less harsh but my mistake. Next time I won’t make that mistake again. It was in no way part of my argument.

Of course players will always tend towards the strongest classes in a particular fight. The issue is that “the strongest classes” are the same for every fight in the only raid. I don’t think anyone would argue that the previous patch had a balanced and diverse raid meta, but it’s certainly true that the recent patch was a step backwards in that regard.

Unfortunately just nerfing ele would do little, because despite being the best personal DPS in most fights, its group DPS is still substantially worse than warrior, mesmer, and druid.

The recent patch only changed the optimal team composition. It had minimal impact on the viability of any of the classes including team compositions.

Absurdo.8309:

I think you’re misrepresenting a lot here.

First, if you can’t see the difference between a skill that does 100k burn ticks, or a fall damage trait that insta-kills players,

with a skill that wasn’t changed for years, and doesn’t put necro above other condi classes, then there’s not much more to discuss.

Second, stating that players only go with the meta is just plain false. Pre-patch, there were plenty of reasons to go with necro on fights like gor, sab, sloth, and xera even though they weren’t optimal. For example, in gor, bringing a necro would almost guarantee that gor wouldn’t eat a minion, because it would be epi’ed. Or, in sloth, necro helped keep condis under control.

But now, necros are so far removed from other dps classes, that it’s just sad. Necro utility will not outweigh a 5k to 10k dps loss for most fights.

So yes, the meta does matter, even if you don’t plan on following it. It matters how far you are from the meta. It’s ok to trade off for utility, but if the dps loss is too great then it’s just not worth it.

I’m not misrepresenting anything; you’re just focusing too much on the specifics. The point of the examples were things that the game allowed the player to do that wasn’t intended. If a meta was made using them then you couldn’t call them a nerf when fixed. You’re still treating the jagged horrors mechanic as if it had been intended.

You also have to remember that time between when something as available and when it fixed doesn’t matter. The usage of that skill didn’t become prominent until the past year. It wasn’t until viper’s armor became available, and the high toughness in upper fractals, which prompted the skill to be used in that way to produce a large number of minions. Player may have been able to use that mechanic but it didn’t become an issue until recently.

I wasn’t referring to all players. There are plenty of players who do not play meta builds or even use the meta team comp. Being able to do this was one of the major things that I was trying to bring up as being possible. My mistake for not being clearer. What matters is not how far a class it from the meta but whether it can adequately support its team towards a success. Adequately of course being a subjective word.

Ayrilana.1396:

There’s trial and error done by those handful of players that create the meta. That is all.

What you said does not dispute what I said in my post. A good example being AFK farming which uses a mechanics and such that by themselves are intended but not when you put them together. The same can be applied at a lesser extent to bug that are not necessarily what you would consider an exploit. Just because healing the life of something because it has health degeneration doesn’t mean that every scenario involving that is intended.

And again, you keep fixating on this which didn’t have anything to do with my argument.

There is correlation between the performance of trial-and-errorers and that of the rest of players.

The problem here is ruining the balance, not the bugfix by itself. And considering the frequency of the balance patches we’ll have this ruined balance for 3 months. That’s why such bugs aren’t fixed like this. You can’t call a major nerf “a minor bugfix”. And you don’t replace unintended mechanic with unintended balance state.

AFK farming depends on mechanic that causes more harm than help: pets/minions aggroing too much. It’s not the minions causing troubles, it’s their AI.

Obtena.7952:

That’s true, there are lots of excessive effects and Anet decides which ones are intended or not. Anet decided that stacking boon and duration wasn’t. so they made changes. Seems like a perfectly reasonable way to approach game changes to me, given that it’s their prerogative to do that. So what’s the problem here? … other than your excessively sensational interpretation that this ‘ruins’ the game?

We have more players that are forced to play not something they like. That’s a good enough definition of ruining the game.

Ayrilana.1396:

Had you read all of my posts, you would have seen that I was arguing that it was fairly obvious that the jagged horror mechanic would eventually get fixed. I included the part about necro being buffed as a sign of being sympathetic. It really has nothing to do with my argument though. I’m not arguing about specific classes but the entire meta itself whether that be builds or team comps.

Of course it may eventually get fixed. But it can’t be fixed in the vacuum due to the major impact on the balance. Just as it stayed for a year, it could stay for 3 more months.

Ayrilana.1396:

Like I’ve stated several times already, necro was brought because of an unintended mechanic that allowed them to create tons on jagged horrors to tank while stacking bleeds. I’d hardly consider fixing something like that as a nerf otherwise why not just call fixing the glyph of elemental power as a nerf too. Or fixing scoring earth many months ago as a nerf. Or that fall damage thing that could kill other players as a nerf. This is the point that you’re missing which I have mentioned several times.

The main difference is that Glyph of Elemental Power was changed in a matter of days.

Another important problem is that when class is taken just because of unintended mechanic, intended mechanics require more attention. There are hardly any useful utility skills besides damaging ones, but DPS benchmarks are still laughable.

Ayrilana.1396:

The recent patch only changed the optimal team composition. It had minimal impact on the viability of any of the classes including team compositions.

It had big impact on viability due to overall raid DPS nerf. There are just less spots for so many classes. Again you are trying to present viability in the vacuum, but this is an MMO, the community is an essential part of the game. Putting together all raids (both optimal and any other) there are just less spots per raid for a handful of classes. “Viable” for an MMO isn’t just an ability to beat something, it’s also an ability to get into a group.

Ayrilana.1396:

I wasn’t referring to all players. There are plenty of players who do not play meta builds or even use the meta team comp. Being able to do this was one of the major things that I was trying to bring up as being possible. My mistake for not being clearer. What matters is not how far a class it from the meta but whether it can adequately support its team towards a success. Adequately of course being a subjective word.

Adequately isn’t as much subjective as it comes to raids. Because once again support towards a success is measurable.

AndyS.5630:

Ayrilana.1396:

The recent patch only changed the optimal team composition. It had minimal impact on the viability of any of the classes including team compositions.

It had big impact on viability due to overall raid DPS nerf. There are just less spots for so many classes. Again you are trying to present viability in the vacuum, but this is an MMO, the community is an essential part of the game. Putting together all raids (both optimal and any other) there are just less spots per raid for a handful of classes. “Viable” for an MMO isn’t just an ability to beat something, it’s also an ability to get into a group.

According to qT’s guide, the mirror comp is comparable to the old meta comp. I don’t know where you got the idea that there’s an overall DPS nerf. It’s still possible to reach the same group DPS as before. The minimum group DPS needed to succeed has not changed as the bosses were not adjusted.

I don’t know where you got the idea that I’m trying to present viability in a vacuum but go ahead and keep running with that. There are only less spots per raid for a handful of classes because there are those players that prefer only to play the utmost optimal team comp. You’re twisting what viable means.

AndyS.5630:

Ayrilana.1396:

I wasn’t referring to all players. There are plenty of players who do not play meta builds or even use the meta team comp. Being able to do this was one of the major things that I was trying to bring up as being possible. My mistake for not being clearer. What matters is not how far a class it from the meta but whether it can adequately support its team towards a success. Adequately of course being a subjective word.

Adequately isn’t as much subjective as it comes to raids. Because once again support towards a success is measurable.

Adequate is subjective. Every player has their own ideal as to what would constitute someone contributing adequately to the success of the raid. It’s not something you can measure or at least not without breaking rules assuming you use DPS as the one and only measure.

Just popping in to say balance patch was bad and raids are poorer for it, nothing constructive to add hope you guys get it better next time.

Peace.

A single mesmer should never have been pumping out perma quickness/resistance. That’s broken and honest people can see that. The impact of removing it might be (likely temporarily) worse than having it, but shaving down the clearly broken power level of some professions and builds is a necessary first step towards balancing the wider meta. Quickness wasn’t designed to be accessible permanently for such a small price (I suspect any form of perma quickness is imbalanced) and mesmers were doing a lot of boon carrying with a non-elite skill, this was clearly a balance problem (especially when so much of it existed outside of chronomancer and thus would impact every future elite spec for the mesmer). Rather than balance around it, it makes sense they would bring it back in line.

The same goes for herald’s boon duration. What kind of power creep would be needed for the second revenant elite spec to compete with 50% boon duration? Every other profession and build would need to exist in an environment where that kind of boon duration existed. That’s a nightmare for balance, especially with nine more elite specializations around the corner.

Rather than buffing mesmers and heralds back to their former broken state, why not consider the possibility that top tier DPS being so much higher is what’s pushing other professions out of the meta?

Raid diversity is not dead. Players just want to mimic what the pros do. Which is fine if it works for you. You can still succeed with necros and revs, it just takes a little longer now

Magnus Godrik.5841:

Raid diversity is not dead. Players just want to mimic what the pros do. Which is fine if it works for you. You can still succeed with necros and revs, it just takes a little longer now

Yup, hell did a no Updraft Gorseval PUG with 3 condi ranger, 2 minstrel druids, 2 PS, 2 Tempest the other day, we got it and that’s with a fair amount of mistakes made too (I went to wrong spirit on one split >.<, and lots of slams taken by the group).

Realistically you can run anything if you’re good enough and still do fine (see 3 man VG).

In practice, Necro is far far far behind every other class on the usefulness scale and there needs to be something done to make it relevant again. Necro is basically in the same spot as they were back in the dungeon days – usable but not that useful.

Ayrilana.1396:

According to qT’s guide, the mirror comp is comparable to the old meta comp. I don’t know where you got the idea that there’s an overall DPS nerf. It’s still possible to reach the same group DPS as before. The minimum group DPS needed to succeed has not changed as the bosses were not adjusted.

Once again you ignore the “community” component. So regardless of qT’s guide, real people have harder time beating the bosses.

Ayrilana.1396:

I don’t know where you got the idea that I’m trying to present viability in a vacuum but go ahead and keep running with that. There are only less spots per raid for a handful of classes because there are those players that prefer only to play the utmost optimal team comp. You’re twisting what viable means.

I got that idea from the fact that you keep ignoring inability (or harder time) to get into a raid as anything reasonable. From a player’s perspective diversity and viability is lower.

Ayrilana.1396:

Adequate is subjective. Every player has their own ideal as to what would constitute someone contributing adequately to the success of the raid. It’s not something you can measure or at least not without breaking rules assuming you use DPS as the one and only measure.

You can measure quality of healing. That’s how people end up considering adding a healer to group. People can notice having 0 quickness, having only 10-15 stacks of Might with 2 PS etc. So no, a lot of things are measurable without breaking the rules.

AndyS.5630:

Ayrilana.1396:

According to qT’s guide, the mirror comp is comparable to the old meta comp. I don’t know where you got the idea that there’s an overall DPS nerf. It’s still possible to reach the same group DPS as before. The minimum group DPS needed to succeed has not changed as the bosses were not adjusted.

Once again you ignore the “community” component. So regardless of qT’s guide, real people have harder time beating the bosses.

Ayrilana.1396:

I don’t know where you got the idea that I’m trying to present viability in a vacuum but go ahead and keep running with that. There are only less spots per raid for a handful of classes because there are those players that prefer only to play the utmost optimal team comp. You’re twisting what viable means.

I got that idea from the fact that you keep ignoring inability (or harder time) to get into a raid as anything reasonable. From a player’s perspective diversity and viability is lower.

Ayrilana.1396:

Adequate is subjective. Every player has their own ideal as to what would constitute someone contributing adequately to the success of the raid. It’s not something you can measure or at least not without breaking rules assuming you use DPS as the one and only measure.

You can measure quality of healing. That’s how people end up considering adding a healer to group. People can notice having 0 quickness, having only 10-15 stacks of Might with 2 PS etc. So no, a lot of things are measurable without breaking the rules.

I’m not ignoring the community component. Continually saying that doesn’t dispute what I said.

Raids can be done without relying on the meta. This is a fact. Just because something isn’t optimal does not mean that it’s not viable. I can agree with using viability as the degree between it being optimal and it being an utter failure. I’m not using it in that sense though due to so many people going under the assumption that if it’s not optimal then it’s not viable. They’re not accepting that there exists a realm between failure and optimal. You also can’t really use player restrictions in regards to viability otherwise why not just include AP and LI as well since those impact a player’s ability to get into a group.

So if you ask a dozen people to define adequate, you’d get the same answer? You can use quantitate numbers to measure a lot of things but it’s up to the individual players to define what the threshold is for it to be adequate.

Ayrilana.1396:

They’re not accepting that there exists a realm between failure and optimal.

They do. They also know, however, that going suboptimal often increases the chances of failing (which for most players are significant even with the best group composition).
It doesn’t matter if the best skilled groups can do the boss with nonoptimal compositions if you happen to not be in such a group. And in groups where the success chances aren’t that great to begin with, not letting them go even lower is quite important.

In the context of an average pug group, “viable” would be something that doesn’t drag the group down. From such a point of view there’s not much difference between significantly suboptimal class/build, and a player that comes in naked and weaponless with no traits set. Even if the latter is also technically “viable” (as you can theoretically finish the encounter with one such player in the group).

Astralporing.1957:

Ayrilana.1396:

They’re not accepting that there exists a realm between failure and optimal.

They do. They also know, however, that going suboptimal often increases the chances of failing (which for most players are significant even with the best group composition).
It doesn’t matter if the best skilled groups can do the boss with nonoptimal compositions if you happen to not be in such a group. And in groups where the success chances aren’t that great to begin with, not letting them go even lower is quite important.

In the context of an average pug group, “viable” would be something that doesn’t drag the group down. From such a point of view there’s not much difference between significantly suboptimal class/build, and a player that comes in naked and weaponless with no traits set. Even if the latter is also technically “viable” (as you can theoretically finish the encounter with one such player in the group).

Adding player skill levels distorts “viable”. In this game, there’s usually always room for improvement as player/team skills vary.

Players new to raids could try the mirror comp with meta builds and wipe constantly or find it difficult to progress. Does this mean the meta build/complete is viable? No. They just need to improve their rotations and there usage of the raid mechanics. How’s it any different than other builds/comps where all that players need to do is improve their rotations and usage of the mechanics as well?

Optimal builds may be easier but something simply being easier doesn’t make it viable over another option that isn’t just as easy. If something is not viable then that means that it cannot be done. If raids were absolutely, 100% impossible to do without the mirror build, then anything other than that you could honestly call unviable.