Guild Wars 2

@Bobby- “If any lore information from the raids is relevant to storylines in other content, we’ll make sure that information is also available in that other content.”

Isn’t all lore relevant? What degree of information are you looking to keep available elsewhere? Only critical bits?

It would be good to find a way to make raids more accessible to players so more people can experience the content and story.

i.e. – Like an “explorable” mode or something.

Lucky.9421:

It would be good to find a way to make raids more accessible to players so more people can experience the content and story.

i.e. – Like an “explorable” mode or something.

Ask people to open a completed raid instance for you. There is no lore directly involved with bossfights. Everything is “laying” on the ground and you can read it. You can still watch the final video (the only one video scene in this raid!) although the instance has been cleared.
You absolutely miss nothing without playing the raid and there are enough gentle & friendly players willing to open this cleared instance for you.

To “feel” the content you just have to give it a try and stop complaining about things around the raid.

BobbyStein.2315:

Hey there. I’ve been seeing some comments regarding the story and lore in the Forsaken Thicket raid, and how that fits into Guild Wars 2. We appreciate your enthusiasm! Just wanted to clarify a few things:

• It will not be necessary to play Forsaken Thicket—or any future raid—in order to complete Living World or expansion stories. Raids do not gate main story progress.
• Raid stories can—and should—be thematically tied to Tyrian lore and enhance the game.
• If any lore information from the raids is relevant to storylines in other content, we’ll make sure that information is also available in that other content.
• Raids present story in a different manner than elsewhere in the game. They are not a replacement for Living World, expansion, or Personal Story.
• Output from the raids team isn’t coming at the expense of other projects in development. Raids are made independently of Living World. We do communicate regularly with that team (and we share some resources and assets in both directions) but neither team prevents the other from doing its job.
• The Forsaken Thicket story will conclude with the release of Stronghold of the Faithful on June 14.
• Raids are not part of our Living World episodes; they are separate game elements.
• More information regarding Living World Season 3 will be announced in the future. As always, content will be released when it is ready to ensure the optimal quality for our fans. Hang tight.

I hope this helps people understand things a bit better. Thanks!

I would also like to thank you Bobby for this post.

Still not convinced by these points, until I see what happens in wing 3 and during season 3. So far the story seems to be straddling a very thin line. As if the connective tissue of these two separate story lines wants to converge. Especially with the current event system directly referencing the connection between the Bandits and the White Mantle. I am not limited to my short term memory (like some people are); when it comes to past GW2 main narrative blunders (even in HoT).

I am worried that if the raid and season 3 do connect then it will be done through a very awkward/jarring manner. In the same way that Caithe’s reasoning for stealing the egg made me cringe at the end of HoT. Which was another conveniently ham-fisted “wild hunt” explanation; that even the Pale Tree was not ever aware of. On top of the convoluted mind game solution that had us kill Mordremoth at the end of HoT. So until this content is here, I will take your words with a grain of slat.

BobbyStein.2315:

• It will not be necessary to play Forsaken Thicket—or any future raid—in order to complete Living World or expansion stories. Raids do not gate main story progress.

But do raids still gate raid story progress? Because I want all the story, both raid and living world, it doesn’t make me feel better that the gated content does not link up with other content. What we’re missing is a way for players who for numerous reasons aren’t part of the “hardcore raider” environment to still be able to experience the story, environments, and general content of the raids.

Ohoni.6057:

BobbyStein.2315:

• It will not be necessary to play Forsaken Thicket—or any future raid—in order to complete Living World or expansion stories. Raids do not gate main story progress.

But do raids still gate raid story progress? Because I want all the story, both raid and living world, it doesn’t make me feel better that the gated content does not link up with other content. What we’re missing is a way for players who for numerous reasons aren’t part of the “hardcore raider” environment to still be able to experience the story, environments, and general content of the raids.

Oh I want dungeons to be more accessible so I can learn story of explorable paths but nobody wants me in party in my Nommad’s gear and got kicked because I don’t know where to stack or skip in Arah. I don’t have time to learn from youtube because I have 4 children and work 12h/day…

/sarcasm mode off

Obviously text above is not true but this is how I see people whining on how they cannot experience lore of raids. As somebody above said – you can ask for cleared instanced or look for opener after a boss but before cleared events between and there is no lore in boss fight itself. Moreover there are plenty raid lore related videos on youtube (like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WAzluW33sQ).
Btw I don’t say you are one of those players. I just generalize about that kind of people.

Sadly it’s far to 1st of April… then if I were ANet employee I would make 1 day option to open easy-mode raid instance where every boss and mob would have 1 hp so people can ‘experience lore’ as they cannot do it without killing bosses (without rewards of course).

How raid and non-raid lore will link eachother? We will see in LS3 as raid lore is brand new and there are no back-references (apart ref to GW1).

Lucky.9421:

It would be good to find a way to make raids more accessible to players so more people can experience the content and story.

i.e. – Like an “explorable” mode or something.

What we need is a way to unlock stats and upgrades for level 80 exotic and ascended gear, then create templates, so players have an easier time switching between professions and builds, instead having to spend too much to ‘preparing to play’, and/or shuffling items between characters, if they need a build for one character with stats they got already with another character.

Unlocks are always better. No exceptions.

BobbyStein.2315:

• It will not be necessary to play Forsaken Thicket—or any future raid— ….

Does that mean, you are planning to release more Raids in the future?

Ohoni.6057:

BobbyStein.2315:

• It will not be necessary to play Forsaken Thicket—or any future raid—in order to complete Living World or expansion stories. Raids do not gate main story progress.

But do raids still gate raid story progress? Because I want all the story, both raid and living world, it doesn’t make me feel better that the gated content does not link up with other content. What we’re missing is a way for players who for numerous reasons aren’t part of the “hardcore raider” environment to still be able to experience the story, environments, and general content of the raids.

All story elements are available in a completed raid instance. Ask someone to open it for you, I’m sure they’ll be happy to.

There’s a wiki if you’re not into raiding, and they document even the objects’ dialogs. Cinematics are always shown on YouTube aswell. I think the teams made the correct choice with the current framework.

Do some of you understand why people enjoy narrative game design? Why there are people out there who buy games for the story? They could very well stick to books and movies only (but they don’t).

Gameplay allows for very immersive storytelling in an unique way. It allows you to experience the story right within it, interacting with the world, with the characters/ NPCs and having to deal yourself with the dangers of adventure.

If your most intelligent suggestions are to “go to youtube”, “ask for a instance with gameplay cleared” or “ask Anet for a mode where all bosses have 1 health”, then you are clearly missing the point. You could very well tell them to ignore GW2’s story, ignore storytelling in videogames, stick to books and movies and play GW2 only for its “intended gameplay”.

I personally am not a hardcore raider. I can’t see myself ever raiding. However, the story that they are presenting in raids is really interesting, touching on subjects that players (especially from GW1) have been asking for years.

Yes, I definitely want a “story mode” for raids. Ideally, by having it work like Arah’s story mode: tuned for solo playing that scales if you invite someone else. Let us enjoy the raid’s storytelling at our own pace, do some of its explorable achievements (those that can already be done through “cleared instances”), a simple final reward at the end of it, and call it a day. And, who knows, maybe that would also be a good way to have more players jump into actual raiding.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Do some of you understand why people enjoy narrative game design? Why there are people out there who buy games for the story? They could very well stick to books and movies only (but they don’t).

Gameplay allows for very immersive storytelling in an unique way. It allows you to experience the story right within it, interacting with the world, with the characters/ NPCs and having to deal yourself with the dangers of adventure.

If your most intelligent suggestions are to “go to youtube”, “ask for a instance with gameplay cleared” or “ask Anet for a mode where all bosses have 1 health”, then you are clearly missing the point. You could very well tell them to ignore GW2’s story, ignore storytelling in videogames, stick to books and movies and play GW2 only for its “intended gameplay”.

I personally am not a hardcore raider. I can’t see myself ever raiding. However, the story that they are presenting in raids is really interesting, touching on subjects that players (especially from GW1) have been asking for years.

Yes, I definitely want a “story mode” for raids. Ideally, by having it work like Arah’s story mode: tuned for solo playing that scales if you invite someone else. Let us enjoy the raid’s storytelling at our own pace, do some of its explorable achievements (those that can already be done through “cleared instances”), a simple final reward at the end of it, and call it a day. And, who knows, maybe that would also be a good way to have more players jump into actual raiding.

Like so many poeple said before. There is no lore in fighting against the bosses/doing the events. If you want to experience it. Then gear up a character and search for a training run for raids. If you want to experience the raid lore like you said by defeating the boss yourself so you can feel to progress towards resueing the captured people. Then do it as it should be. Yes it’s not soloable. But why should it be? this is the story. difficult bosses who you need to defeat through TEAMWORK why should you be able to do it alone as this is the story that your playing? why should it be made easier? Raids aren’t that hard. Yes you need to gear up a character. And yes you need to learn the mechanics of the fight. But does it mean that you need to spend every evening doing raids for 2-3h to be able to do them. No. Some bosses are easy. Some bosses are harder.

My first mathias kill came after i think 2h of trying him in 3 different runs. No i didn’t bought the run and no i wasn’t carried by 9 experienced players. Frome the 10 people in the squad 4 people never killed mathias before that one. We had a very good commander explaining and pointing out everything so we could learn at a very fast pace. So if you find the right people/guild if you have the right build then raids are accesseble for almost everyone. But you need to put in an effort. Its not just zerging around and do damage. and let a few people take care of the mechanics. No now everyone needs to watch out or your whole party dies. Simple as that.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Do some of you understand why people enjoy narrative game design? Why there are people out there who buy games for the story? They could very well stick to books and movies only (but they don’t).

Gameplay allows for very immersive storytelling in an unique way. It allows you to experience the story right within it, interacting with the world, with the characters/ NPCs and having to deal yourself with the dangers of adventure.

If your most intelligent suggestions are to “go to youtube”, “ask for a instance with gameplay cleared” or “ask Anet for a mode where all bosses have 1 health”, then you are clearly missing the point. You could very well tell them to ignore GW2’s story, ignore storytelling in videogames, stick to books and movies and play GW2 only for its “intended gameplay”.

I personally am not a hardcore raider. I can’t see myself ever raiding. However, the story that they are presenting in raids is really interesting, touching on subjects that players (especially from GW1) have been asking for years.

Yes, I definitely want a “story mode” for raids. Ideally, by having it work like Arah’s story mode: tuned for solo playing that scales if you invite someone else. Let us enjoy the raid’s storytelling at our own pace, do some of its explorable achievements (those that can already be done through “cleared instances”), a simple final reward at the end of it, and call it a day. And, who knows, maybe that would also be a good way to have more players jump into actual raiding.

Please tell me the difference between: 1) I enter raid – they are easy mode (with less reward) which scales and I can solo and 2) Boss have 1 hp so I can explore and if I encounter anything I just 1 hit it and continue exploring? As from what I see 1) is your idea on it and 2) is mine. And apart from boss fights how does it differ from using lfg to ask for an opener for cleared instance or just after some events?

DiogoSilva.7089:

Do some of you understand why people enjoy narrative game design? Why there are people out there who buy games for the story? They could very well stick to books and movies only (but they don’t).

Gameplay allows for very immersive storytelling in an unique way. It allows you to experience the story right within it, interacting with the world, with the characters/ NPCs and having to deal yourself with the dangers of adventure.

If your most intelligent suggestions are to “go to youtube”, “ask for a instance with gameplay cleared” or “ask Anet for a mode where all bosses have 1 health”, then you are clearly missing the point. You could very well tell them to ignore GW2’s story, ignore storytelling in videogames, stick to books and movies and play GW2 only for its “intended gameplay”.

I personally am not a hardcore raider. I can’t see myself ever raiding. However, the story that they are presenting in raids is really interesting, touching on subjects that players (especially from GW1) have been asking for years.

Yes, I definitely want a “story mode” for raids. Ideally, by having it work like Arah’s story mode: tuned for solo playing that scales if you invite someone else. Let us enjoy the raid’s storytelling at our own pace, do some of its explorable achievements (those that can already be done through “cleared instances”), a simple final reward at the end of it, and call it a day. And, who knows, maybe that would also be a good way to have more players jump into actual raiding.

When Spirit Vale came out, Woodenpotato made the point that one the key elements to the story was the difficulties of the bosses. It made the bosses feel like real threats to tyria that the player characters actually had to band and strategize together to defeat. When Salvation Pass was released, anet released a video talking about making the white mantle the main villains of the raid. They had wanted to tell this story, but they could not find a setting “epic enough” to tell it. Raids provided that setting.

Adding an easy mode or Solo mode tears down this epic setting for Players.

DrEckers.2039:

When Spirit Vale came out, Woodenpotato made the point that one the key elements to the story was the difficulties of the bosses. It made the bosses feel like real threats to tyria that the player characters actually had to band and strategize together to defeat. When Salvation Pass was released, anet released a video talking about making the white mantle the main villains of the raid. They had wanted to tell this story, but they could not find a setting “epic enough” to tell it. Raids provided that setting.

Adding an easy mode or Solo mode tears down this epic setting for Players.

I don’t think that White Mantle can be even a fracture of former Zhaitan’s threat.

Even here in this thread enough has been said, one addition to DiogoSilva:
I think, some of you have a wrong impression of raids. You think they are designed like dungeons or fractals. But you are wrong. The only cutscenes I can remember is the last one after killing Matthias and a little unimportant one after killing Trio. The cutscene of Matthias is still watchable if you’ll just enter a cleared instance. The rest of the stories is literally laying on the ground on papers you can read or told by npc’s that are still there after having cleared the raid. There is no so called interaction or guidance when progressing during the raid. It’s the other way round, if you want to find something out about the lore you won’t come into favour of fighting the bosses. That’s why a completed instance is sufficient here. The atmosphere is far different from dungeons.

I definitely appreciate the communication, Bobby. I was worried I was missing out on some crucial lore which would be connected to the next LS. It’s good to know the lore wont be gated behind the raiding.

Having open communication like this just reinforces my commitment and dedication to this game and company. Thank you.

So when there’s another massive content drought and raids are the only thing being released in terms of content and story, will you still say the same thing to gloss over how inaccessible the only major content updates are to the majority of the players?

Do you NOT want to follow the trend of making raids easy to get into for all players? Was it your intent to have an outdated view of them?

Just because you said the raid lore is “side” and not “main” lore doesn’t ignore that for almost 8sh months, it’s really been the ONLY lore (and content) to come out.
Unless you would rather us NOT play the game and instead just read the Wikipedia for the game?

Also if the raid lore is relevant to other stories that you’ll make it available in other places? Why not just make it accessible in the first place!?

TheLilith.2849:

Please tell me the difference between: 1) I enter raid – they are easy mode (with less reward) which scales and I can solo and 2) Boss have 1 hp so I can explore and if I encounter anything I just 1 hit it and continue exploring? As from what I see 1) is your idea on it and 2) is mine. And apart from boss fights how does it differ from using lfg to ask for an opener for cleared instance or just after some events?

A normal boss encounter (even if easy) can still create the narrative illusion of being something epic. A boss that dies in one hit, meanwhile, does not.

That being said, if the difficulty is important to the story’s experience, then I agree that adding an easy mode wouldn’t be a perfect solution. But by this very logic, “going to youtube” or “checking the wiki” is still a bad argument, because there is no difficulty in that neither, so you’re still not fully experiencing the story. I’d say a possible solution would be a slightly-more-challenging-than-normal solo story mode. As long as your average player perceives it as hard (relative to their skill level), then the gameplay-narrative will be successful at communicating its sense of epic and danger.

hardy.7469:

So when there’s another massive content drought and raids are the only thing being released in terms of content and story, will you still say the same thing to gloss over how inaccessible the only major content updates are to the majority of the players?

Do you NOT want to follow the trend of making raids easy to get into for all players? Was it your intent to have an outdated view of them?

Just because you said the raid lore is “side” and not “main” lore doesn’t ignore that for almost 8sh months, it’s really been the ONLY lore (and content) to come out.
Unless you would rather us NOT play the game and instead just read the Wikipedia for the game?

Also if the raid lore is relevant to other stories that you’ll make it available in other places? Why not just make it accessible in the first place!?

I agree with you. “Normal” GW2 players have been stuck in a gameplay drought while hardcore raid players, besides getting their hardcore content (which I have nothing against), are also getting a narrative experience exclusive to them. For the third time after HoT released.

I have nothing against raids, I have nothing against hardore content, I have nothing against the raid team and the awesome work they have been doing.

But Anet must remember: hardcore raiders are not their only audience for story content.

Maybe you should have followed their announcements and not suggest anything that won’t become real!
The raid belongs to the addon as a whole raid just split up into 3 wings with 3 different releases.
It has been said several times now that the third raid wing is followed by LS3.

Stop pushing out things that aren’t reasonable and that are against the given official informations.

And a big NO to making raids easy! They are good as they are and many decent players have been successful in there. We don’t need the last percent of content to be like the other 99% cakewalk.

Vinceman.4572:

And a big NO to making raids easy! They are good as they are and many decent players have been successful in there. We don’t need the last percent of content to be like the other 99% cakewalk.

I’m not saying that raids should be easy. I’m saying that the story-driven experience that raids offer should also be available to players that enjoy story-driven content but not hardcore, organized raiding. All Anet needs to do is add an optional story mode. It’s quite simple. If their content appeals to two distinct audiences, then it should be accessible to both audiences.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Vinceman.4572:

And a big NO to making raids easy! They are good as they are and many decent players have been successful in there. We don’t need the last percent of content to be like the other 99% cakewalk.

I’m not saying that raids should be easy. I’m saying that the story-driven experience that raids offer should also be available to players that enjoy story-driven content but not hardcore, organized raiding. All Anet needs to do is add an optional story mode. It’s quite simple. If their content appeals to two distinct audiences, then it should be accessible to both audiences.

Again, there is no story driven experience. All story elements are available in a completed raid instance.

If you want to experience the boss fights, you still can (although you won’t necessarily beat them).

Making a story mode just seems like a massive waste of time.

If anyone on EU needs a completed raid instance to read up on all the story you can always ask me. 99% of the time I have them completed on monday. Alternatively, just watch the kitten ed WP video or read up on the wiki (all texts are there anyway).

There’s 0 story in the fights, no cutscenes or nothing, so you can experience all the story content without ever doing the raid. However it’s blatantly obvious that most of the QQers in this thread rly just want the armor anyway.

Absurdo.8309:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Vinceman.4572:

And a big NO to making raids easy! They are good as they are and many decent players have been successful in there. We don’t need the last percent of content to be like the other 99% cakewalk.

I’m not saying that raids should be easy. I’m saying that the story-driven experience that raids offer should also be available to players that enjoy story-driven content but not hardcore, organized raiding. All Anet needs to do is add an optional story mode. It’s quite simple. If their content appeals to two distinct audiences, then it should be accessible to both audiences.

Again, there is no story driven experience. All story elements are available in a completed raid instance.

If you want to experience the boss fights, you still can (although you won’t necessarily beat them).

Making a story mode just seems like a massive waste of time.

Then why not when the final wing is out after x amount of time, introduce a completed empty (beat) version of the raid anyone can explore solo so you don’t need to bother people asking for a beat instance to go into.
There’s definitely no reason NOT to do that.
I mean a bunch of heroes cleared this area right? I don’t see any logical reason why you can’t just code an empty version of the raid that anyone can generate by running in the instance or something.

hardy.7469:

Absurdo.8309:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Vinceman.4572:

And a big NO to making raids easy! They are good as they are and many decent players have been successful in there. We don’t need the last percent of content to be like the other 99% cakewalk.

I’m not saying that raids should be easy. I’m saying that the story-driven experience that raids offer should also be available to players that enjoy story-driven content but not hardcore, organized raiding. All Anet needs to do is add an optional story mode. It’s quite simple. If their content appeals to two distinct audiences, then it should be accessible to both audiences.

Again, there is no story driven experience. All story elements are available in a completed raid instance.

If you want to experience the boss fights, you still can (although you won’t necessarily beat them).

Making a story mode just seems like a massive waste of time.

Then why not when the final wing is out after x amount of time, introduce a completed empty (beat) version of the raid anyone can explore solo so you don’t need to bother people asking for a beat instance to go into.
There’s definitely no reason NOT to do that.
I mean a bunch of heroes cleared this area right? I don’t see any logical reason why you can’t just code an empty version of the raid that anyone can generate by running in the instance or something.

I would support this idea in a broader system that made bosses selectable. It’s a pain when you fight them out of order or want to fight them twice.

So, ideally the system would allow you to select: boss 1, boss 2, boss 3, or completed.

hardy.7469:

Absurdo.8309:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Vinceman.4572:

And a big NO to making raids easy! They are good as they are and many decent players have been successful in there. We don’t need the last percent of content to be like the other 99% cakewalk.

I’m not saying that raids should be easy. I’m saying that the story-driven experience that raids offer should also be available to players that enjoy story-driven content but not hardcore, organized raiding. All Anet needs to do is add an optional story mode. It’s quite simple. If their content appeals to two distinct audiences, then it should be accessible to both audiences.

Again, there is no story driven experience. All story elements are available in a completed raid instance.

If you want to experience the boss fights, you still can (although you won’t necessarily beat them).

Making a story mode just seems like a massive waste of time.

Then why not when the final wing is out after x amount of time, introduce a completed empty (beat) version of the raid anyone can explore solo so you don’t need to bother people asking for a beat instance to go into.
There’s definitely no reason NOT to do that.
I mean a bunch of heroes cleared this area right? I don’t see any logical reason why you can’t just code an empty version of the raid that anyone can generate by running in the instance or something.

Because you’re lazy you want waste some developers time for that? I’d rather let them focus on more important things than adding something you can achieve by posting few words on lfg and waiting 5 mins.
Honestly I think all raid-whines will stop when LS3 will come. These people got huge 14 episodes of HoT story, finished it and now they won’t allow any other type of content to be released.
Other reason for whining could be as somebody said – “If I spend 100+ h on Silverwastes then I can get my Legendary weapon but I can’t do same with armor – lets make it simpler so I don’t need to put any effort in getting my shiniest armor”

Some people thing raids are still too easy and some think they’re still too hard.

Add an Infantile Mode and a Tribulation Mode with reduced and increased rewards, but achievements still earnable.

Oh hey,

I just want to chime in that if people are interested in the tiny bit of related lore that is provided outside raids, there are five pro-White Mantle Bandit bosses loitering around in Queensdale, Kessex Hill and Brisband’s Wildlands waiting to be discovered and engaged for your immersion’s sake. In the grand scheme of things, they are fortunately very easy to solo; and if you ever feel overwhelmed by their threats, there is always a zerg conveniently stationing nearby to help you with no extra cost.

Edit: don’t – for the sake of your mental health – ever forget to read the extra notes on top of the supply bundles at the crime scene. They gave me so much lore pleasure as well.

TheLilith.2849:

Ohoni.6057:

BobbyStein.2315:

• It will not be necessary to play Forsaken Thicket—or any future raid—in order to complete Living World or expansion stories. Raids do not gate main story progress.

But do raids still gate raid story progress? Because I want all the story, both raid and living world, it doesn’t make me feel better that the gated content does not link up with other content. What we’re missing is a way for players who for numerous reasons aren’t part of the “hardcore raider” environment to still be able to experience the story, environments, and general content of the raids.

Oh I want dungeons to be more accessible so I can learn story of explorable paths but nobody wants me in party in my Nommad’s gear and got kicked because I don’t know where to stack or skip in Arah. I don’t have time to learn from youtube because I have 4 children and work 12h/day…

/sarcasm mode off

Obviously text above is not true but this is how I see people whining on how they cannot experience lore of raids. As somebody above said – you can ask for cleared instanced or look for opener after a boss but before cleared events between and there is no lore in boss fight itself. Moreover there are plenty raid lore related videos on youtube (like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WAzluW33sQ).
Btw I don’t say you are one of those players. I just generalize about that kind of people.

Sadly it’s far to 1st of April… then if I were ANet employee I would make 1 day option to open easy-mode raid instance where every boss and mob would have 1 hp so people can ‘experience lore’ as they cannot do it without killing bosses (without rewards of course).

How raid and non-raid lore will link eachother? We will see in LS3 as raid lore is brand new and there are no back-references (apart ref to GW1).

Yeah, I think you about covered it. This is why we need a more casual raid mode. People like this.

DrEckers.2039:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Do some of you understand why people enjoy narrative game design? Why there are people out there who buy games for the story? They could very well stick to books and movies only (but they don’t).

Gameplay allows for very immersive storytelling in an unique way. It allows you to experience the story right within it, interacting with the world, with the characters/ NPCs and having to deal yourself with the dangers of adventure.

If your most intelligent suggestions are to “go to youtube”, “ask for a instance with gameplay cleared” or “ask Anet for a mode where all bosses have 1 health”, then you are clearly missing the point. You could very well tell them to ignore GW2’s story, ignore storytelling in videogames, stick to books and movies and play GW2 only for its “intended gameplay”.

I personally am not a hardcore raider. I can’t see myself ever raiding. However, the story that they are presenting in raids is really interesting, touching on subjects that players (especially from GW1) have been asking for years.

Yes, I definitely want a “story mode” for raids. Ideally, by having it work like Arah’s story mode: tuned for solo playing that scales if you invite someone else. Let us enjoy the raid’s storytelling at our own pace, do some of its explorable achievements (those that can already be done through “cleared instances”), a simple final reward at the end of it, and call it a day. And, who knows, maybe that would also be a good way to have more players jump into actual raiding.

When Spirit Vale came out, Woodenpotato made the point that one the key elements to the story was the difficulties of the bosses. It made the bosses feel like real threats to tyria that the player characters actually had to band and strategize together to defeat. When Salvation Pass was released, anet released a video talking about making the white mantle the main villains of the raid. They had wanted to tell this story, but they could not find a setting “epic enough” to tell it. Raids provided that setting.

Adding an easy mode or Solo mode tears down this epic setting for Players.

That’s silly. How “epic” can the raid boss encounters be when they can be defeated with just ten people? I mean, it takes 100+ people to beat Claw of Jormag or Shatterer, or most of the other world bosses in the game. Raid bosses are tougher than your average champ mob, but they’re currently only difficult because you aren’t allowed to bring an entire map against them. they’re nowhere near the threat level, of, say, the Karka Queen.

Ohoni.6057:

DrEckers.2039:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Do some of you understand why people enjoy narrative game design? Why there are people out there who buy games for the story? They could very well stick to books and movies only (but they don’t).

Gameplay allows for very immersive storytelling in an unique way. It allows you to experience the story right within it, interacting with the world, with the characters/ NPCs and having to deal yourself with the dangers of adventure.

If your most intelligent suggestions are to “go to youtube”, “ask for a instance with gameplay cleared” or “ask Anet for a mode where all bosses have 1 health”, then you are clearly missing the point. You could very well tell them to ignore GW2’s story, ignore storytelling in videogames, stick to books and movies and play GW2 only for its “intended gameplay”.

I personally am not a hardcore raider. I can’t see myself ever raiding. However, the story that they are presenting in raids is really interesting, touching on subjects that players (especially from GW1) have been asking for years.

Yes, I definitely want a “story mode” for raids. Ideally, by having it work like Arah’s story mode: tuned for solo playing that scales if you invite someone else. Let us enjoy the raid’s storytelling at our own pace, do some of its explorable achievements (those that can already be done through “cleared instances”), a simple final reward at the end of it, and call it a day. And, who knows, maybe that would also be a good way to have more players jump into actual raiding.

When Spirit Vale came out, Woodenpotato made the point that one the key elements to the story was the difficulties of the bosses. It made the bosses feel like real threats to tyria that the player characters actually had to band and strategize together to defeat. When Salvation Pass was released, anet released a video talking about making the white mantle the main villains of the raid. They had wanted to tell this story, but they could not find a setting “epic enough” to tell it. Raids provided that setting.

Adding an easy mode or Solo mode tears down this epic setting for Players.

That’s silly. How “epic” can the raid boss encounters be when they can be defeated with just ten people? I mean, it takes 100+ people to beat Claw of Jormag or Shatterer, or most of the other world bosses in the game. Raid bosses are tougher than your average champ mob, but they’re currently only difficult because you aren’t allowed to bring an entire map against them. they’re nowhere near the threat level, of, say, the Karka Queen.

you can kill any world boss with 5-10 people (except tt/teq)

good luck finding a map to do it on though

hardy.7469:

So when there’s another massive content drought and raids are the only thing being released in terms of content and story, will you still say the same thing to gloss over how inaccessible the only major content updates are to the majority of the players?

Do you NOT want to follow the trend of making raids easy to get into for all players? Was it your intent to have an outdated view of them?

Just because you said the raid lore is “side” and not “main” lore doesn’t ignore that for almost 8sh months, it’s really been the ONLY lore (and content) to come out.
Unless you would rather us NOT play the game and instead just read the Wikipedia for the game?

Also if the raid lore is relevant to other stories that you’ll make it available in other places? Why not just make it accessible in the first place!?

This sums it up for me! Thanks, hardy!

Also, a huge thanks to Bobby Stein for posting here and not continuing the trend of Reddit posting that is going on with alot of the GW2 staff. It’s nice to be able to come to the games actual official forums and find relevant information without looking for the pertinent links to it on a 3rd party site.

Oh god, this “inaccessible” thing… Open world PvE is 10x more inaccessible because of the fixed schedule it’s on. Raids is just a matter of meet up and do it on your own time.

you can kill any world boss with 5-10 people (except tt/teq)

good luck finding a map to do it on though

I’m not talking a downscaled one. Try taking on Shatterer with 5-10 people while the other 140 watch you from the camp. The point is, there are enemies in the game that at minimum scale up to require over a hundred people, so anything that can be beaten with only ten can’t be that big a deal.

Ohoni.6057:

you can kill any world boss with 5-10 people (except tt/teq)

good luck finding a map to do it on though

I’m not talking a downscaled one. Try taking on Shatterer with 5-10 people while the other 140 watch you from the camp. The point is, there are enemies in the game that at minimum scale up to require over a hundred people, so anything that can be beaten with only ten can’t be that big a deal.

moving the goalposts

insanemaniac.2456:

Ohoni.6057:

you can kill any world boss with 5-10 people (except tt/teq)

good luck finding a map to do it on though

I’m not talking a downscaled one. Try taking on Shatterer with 5-10 people while the other 140 watch you from the camp. The point is, there are enemies in the game that at minimum scale up to require over a hundred people, so anything that can be beaten with only ten can’t be that big a deal.

moving the goalposts

Clarifying the goalposts. The intent was to highlight the threat level posed by other content in the game, that it CAN require a huge number of players, not that it necessarily didn’t scale downwards.

Ohoni.6057:

I’m not talking a downscaled one. Try taking on Shatterer with 5-10 people while the other 140 watch you from the camp.

You said that you need 100 people to kill a world boss which is 100% bs. Changing stuff around not gonna make it less bs.

Arnath.2319:

Raids are costing us content. Fact.

Impersonating a developer hmm?

Siobhan.5273:

hardy.7469:

So when there’s another massive content drought and raids are the only thing being released in terms of content and story, will you still say the same thing to gloss over how inaccessible the only major content updates are to the majority of the players?

Do you NOT want to follow the trend of making raids easy to get into for all players? Was it your intent to have an outdated view of them?

Just because you said the raid lore is “side” and not “main” lore doesn’t ignore that for almost 8sh months, it’s really been the ONLY lore (and content) to come out.
Unless you would rather us NOT play the game and instead just read the Wikipedia for the game?

Also if the raid lore is relevant to other stories that you’ll make it available in other places? Why not just make it accessible in the first place!?

This sums it up for me! Thanks, hardy!

Also, a huge thanks to Bobby Stein for posting here and not continuing the trend of Reddit posting that is going on with alot of the GW2 staff. It’s nice to be able to come to the games actual official forums and find relevant information without looking for the pertinent links to it on a 3rd party site.

Reddit is a lot friendlier than the forums. And frivolous/insane arguments can be down voted.

Ohoni.6057:

insanemaniac.2456:

Ohoni.6057:

you can kill any world boss with 5-10 people (except tt/teq)

good luck finding a map to do it on though

I’m not talking a downscaled one. Try taking on Shatterer with 5-10 people while the other 140 watch you from the camp. The point is, there are enemies in the game that at minimum scale up to require over a hundred people, so anything that can be beaten with only ten can’t be that big a deal.

moving the goalposts

Clarifying the goalposts. The intent was to highlight the threat level posed by other content in the game, that it CAN require a huge number of players, not that it necessarily didn’t scale downwards.

try taking on a shatterer with 5-10 people with 0 sitting afk at the camp.

good luck finding a map though.

you arent clarifying the goalposts, youre moving them.

Arnath.2319:

The raid team could be making new dungeons or fractals, or just like the cancelled legendary team they could be helping with living story.

Raids are costing us content. Fact.

Raids are content, and that is a Fact. It might not be content you enjoy, but it is content. It is the most replayable content in the game. Living Story is coming out soon, and we know new fractals and fractal redesigns are coming as well this year. The current raid that we have gotten is part of the expansion it is not content that you got instead of living story it was sold as three wings staggered in time every few months. They were developed with HoT and probably tuned and polished in the months after. Living Story on the other hand they probably started after HoT launched which is why its taking a while. It would of been the equivalent if you would of gotten the HoT maps every 3 months, at this point you would be only getting Tangle Depths or Dragon Stand.

try taking on a shatterer with 5-10 people with 0 sitting afk at the camp.

Again, not relevant to the point I was making.

Arnath.2319:

Beorn Raukar.4328:

Arnath.2319:

The raid team could be making new dungeons or fractals, or just like the cancelled legendary team they could be helping with living story.

Raids are costing us content. Fact.

Raids are content, and that is a Fact.

Content that less than 5% of the playerbase consumes. Why are raiders incapable of thinking about other people and the survival of this game? Wasting dev time on content only a small percentage of people will ever see is how games die.

This is in the OP. If this won’t convince you, I’m not sure what will.

Output from the raids team isn’t coming at the expense of other projects in development. Raids are made independently of Living World. We do communicate regularly with that team (and we share some resources and assets in both directions) but neither team prevents the other from doing its job.

Absurdo.8309:

Reddit is a lot friendlier than the forums. And frivolous/insane arguments can be down voted.

I don’t want to take this thread totally OT, but that rationale isn’t an excuse for the official forums not to be utilized by the staff as often as they use Reddit. It may be an excuse for players to use to have discussions with each other, but honestly, the official forums is what Anet makes of them. If they want a different environment or posting layout, that is really something that is within their reach to make happen. We’re told these are the official forums. We’re told they’re “not going to link off the official forums to an UNofficial forums”, so we, as customers shouldn’t have to play chase the dev comments either.

To bring that on topic, someone stated that we’re not getting new fractals. Did anyone know that it was stated, yesterday on Reddit that we will be getting a new fractal in 2016? :

Anet_Ben Wrote:

Yes you can expect a new fractal in 2016, as well as new revamps and other changes! IMO the team is doing great now as far as productivity goes, even for how small it is. Once all of the core systems are fixed we will also be able to devote even more time to content.

It is happening, the communication, that is. There is more info out there. Just a flesh wound is really working to compile info for us here, but he is just one person and can’t get everything. I’m sure this community would be grateful for more info straight from the horses mouth, so to speak, as well.

Arnath.2319:

Content that less than 5% of the playerbase consumes.

Citation needed.

Arnath.2319:

Wasting dev time on content only a small percentage of people will ever see is how games die.

I wonder how many times people (like yourself) re-played Season 2 of Living World compared to how many times people re-play Spirit Vale and Salvation Pass? After just the second week (maybe even the first) I played Spirit Vale way more than what I did in all of Season 2.

Nokaru.7831:

I wonder how many times people (like yourself) re-played Season 2 of Living World compared to how many times people re-play Spirit Vale and Salvation Pass? After just the second week (maybe even the first) I played Spirit Vale way more than what I did in all of Season 2.

Lots of people go through it for the rewards and mastery points. Especially those not able or wanting to do every fractal achievement for a mastery point. There are 2 fractals achievements I’ve yet been able to get (we 3, or at most, 4 man them, but mainly, 3 man them) yet so I did the LS2 over and over till I got what I needed. What can I say, I’m not always so coordinated!

This is in the OP. If this won’t convince you, I’m not sure what will.

Output from the raids team isn’t coming at the expense of other projects in development. Raids are made independently of Living World. We do communicate regularly with that team (and we share some resources and assets in both directions) but neither team prevents the other from doing its job.

And this is true from a certain perspective, but mostly nonsense. Ok, maybe the raid team’s work does not “take away” from work in other areas, if that’s how they want to frame it, but look at what the raid team has accomplished. They have made zones of significant scope and artistry, unique boss encounters, engaging story, all sorts of things. It is impossible to argue that these same developers, tasked with creating content that more players could engage with, could not have produced MORE CONTENT that those players could engage with.

It is an inarguable fact that by tasking these developers with producing raids, it did reduce the quantity or quality of other content in the game, however they choose to phrase it.

I’m not arguing that they should dissolve the raid team, or not make future raids, but I do think it would be nice if they took the time to make the existing raid content more accessible to players that for whatever reasons are not well suited to raids in their current form.

I wonder how many times people (like yourself) re-played Season 2 of Living World compared to how many times people re-play Spirit Vale and Salvation Pass?

It’s an interesting question, although not particularly important to answer. For one thing, I would be willing to wager that while not many people replayed a significant amount of the HoT LS (I haven’t gotten around to it yet), I bet that more people played through it at least once than have completed even one full raid wing. I might even take action on there being more people who completed the HoT story than have beaten even a single raid boss yet, but I’m less confident on that one. So wouldn’t dozens of players spending 5-10 hours completing a story campaign once be equivalent to one player replaying a single raid wing dozens of times?

The second issue with that question though is that I don’t like the idea of comparing raids to single player story missions. I prefer comparing them to open world maps, and players overall spend WAY more collective hours on open world maps than they do in raid wings.

I don’t think that they should make single player story-mission style versions of the raid wings, although some certainly would prefer that. What I’d be looking for is more of a reduced difficulty casual mode for the raids, where you would still play them with ten people, but with reduced difficulty you could be much more casual about forming a party, you wouldn’t need to select for “the right classes,” or “the right gearing,” or experienced only," or anything like that, you could just put out an LFG, grab the first nine people who show up, and stand a solid chance of completing the wing in a reasonable amount of time. This would be fun and repeatable for players who do not enjoy high-challenge encounters, and for those who do enjoy high challenge encounters, the original version would remain available.

Lots of people go through it for the rewards and mastery points. Especially those not able or wanting to do every fractal achievement for a mastery point. There are 2 fractals achievements I’ve yet been able to get (we 3, or at most, 4 man them, but mainly, 3 man them) yet so I did the LS2 over and over till I got what I needed. What can I say, I’m not always so coordinated!

The other night I realized that I was one Tyrian master point away from what I’d need to buy the last available skill, so I completed the spoons collection.

Arnath.2319:

Beorn Raukar.4328:

Arnath.2319:

The raid team could be making new dungeons or fractals, or just like the cancelled legendary team they could be helping with living story.

Raids are costing us content. Fact.

Raids are content, and that is a Fact.

Content that less than 5% of the playerbase consumes. Why are raiders incapable of thinking about other people and the survival of this game? Wasting dev time on content only a small percentage of people will ever see is how games die.

Why can’t you see that the 5% of the playerbase also matters as well. The fact that only 5-10 devs are dedicated to raids in a company of 300 people means that only 5% of the company is dedicated to raids. 5% of the company creates content to 5% of the playerbase seems fair. If anyone is incapable of thinking of other people is you, saying if it is not content you personally like (or that the 95% of the playerbase likes) it shouldnt have any resources devoted to it. I hope you get Living Story soon, I wish no ill on any other player and having more people engaged and playing is good for the game. Let us have our little slice of the game while you enjoy the rest.