Raid Normal/Hard Mode

Raid Normal/Hard Mode

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Rozalina.3196

Rozalina.3196

I would love to see raids and future raids have a normal mode and hardcore mode version of them. The way raids are right now leans more towards the hardcore players. Which means everyone else is left out of all the new raid content. That is why I suggest having a normal mode of raids where we’re given more time on boss fights and enemies have less health. In hardcore mode (which is what raids are now), people will be given more Magnetite Shards and have a better chance of getting better drops. That way the hardcore players get their extra challenging fix and everyone else is able to be involved in the new raid content. The hardcore mode could even be represented by a challenge mote at the beginning of the instance.

Raid Normal/Hard Mode

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Posted by: Goldfox.5729

Goldfox.5729

How many times have you actually tried Raiding? Have you killed any bosses, or tried several pug training groups? Did you read guides, watch videos and gear up accordingly before trying?

Because Raids really isn’t that hard if you simply learn how to do it, and there’s plenty of guilds and LFG’s that want to train a specific boss.

‘’Many have eyes, but few have seen.’’ – Scriptures of Lyssa, 45 BE

Raid Normal/Hard Mode

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Posted by: Towatha.4671

Towatha.4671

no thank you. This will only add more exclusive rewards for raiders. I’d prefer they start working on wvw.

Raid Normal/Hard Mode

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Posted by: Sarrs.4831

Sarrs.4831

no thank you. This will only add more exclusive rewards for raiders. I’d prefer they start working on wvw.

what this dude said

raids are providing content for their target audience, they’re fine.

if you want normal mode raids, you can do Silverwastes, Verdant Brink, Auric Basin, Tangled Depths and Dragon’s Stand.

Nalhadia – Kaineng

Raid Normal/Hard Mode

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Posted by: Duke Nukem.6783

Duke Nukem.6783

it would be nice if i actually had the time or equipment to learn a raid……

Raid Normal/Hard Mode

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Posted by: Illconceived Was Na.9781

Illconceived Was Na.9781

The way raids are right now leans more towards the hardcore players.

Yes, that is the idea.

Which means everyone else is left out of all the new raid content.

Nothing wrong with that. Strict PvErs are left out of WvW and PvPers are left out of PvE.


Part of the reason raids are such a success, as measured in fan-approved-content per effort-by-developers is that it has such a narrow focus. Encounters, mechanics, and rewards only have to be balanced for a homogeneous group. Add new modes and you’ve increased the workload.

Instead, ANet offers fractals, which have four modes built into it. Tier 1 offers the same rewards as T4 (but with worse odds for the ‘good stuff’).

John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”

Raid Normal/Hard Mode

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Posted by: Glacial.9516

Glacial.9516

I can’t deny I’d like to see a story mode for raids/dungeons that is intended to be done solo and provides little to no rewards. Preferably one that would offer toned down mechanics so that players can see what the bosses do, even if they don’t experience the full effect and can play through the story without slowing down a group.

Then again, I suppose one could just watch videos for the cutscenes and mechanics. Probably best to put developmental efforts elsewhere.

(edited by Glacial.9516)

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Posted by: Yobculture.5786

Yobculture.5786

no

raids are actually quite easy as they are

if you want to be catered to, play auric basin or dragon stand or something. adding a “normal mode” so ppl who don’t even know how to play their class properly can feel like they are contributing is, in my opinion, a waste of dev time/resources. they need to focus their efforts on either the xpac, fixing the wvw/pvp issues or adding more content

Far Shiverpeaks

Raid Normal/Hard Mode

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Posted by: Blaeys.3102

Blaeys.3102

It definitely needs to happen for a lot of reasons – from accessibility to story to keeping raids more relevant for larger groups of people. Most of these points have been raised MANY times in the past year. It really is in the hands of the devs now.

Be wary, however – the general reaction to these topics in this particular subforum is often less than cordial. The general strategy is often to shame (“its already easy – you must suck at the game” style comments) or insult people asking for this until they give up.

With that in mind, I am glad to see the topic resurfacing on a regular basis. It’s important that developers know there is a desire for this in the game’s community – despite the trolling and attempts to shut the conversation down.

Raid Normal/Hard Mode

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Posted by: thrag.9740

thrag.9740

I’d rather not see this. Anet told us that part of why they can make raids rewarding is because of their difficulty. For example, they told us that the reason why purchasing ascended with fractal rewards is so expensive (gold wise) is because they didn’t want fractals to be the obviously better alternative for the majority of the player base to crafting ascended. Conversely, they said that purchasing ascended armor from raids can be a good deal because of the comparatively smaller population of raiders.

Continuing with this mentality, easy mode raids would have to do one of two things; not give any magnetite shards, or all the prices of ascended armor would have to have huge amounts of gold attached to them.

If easy mode raids give no magnetite, no one will run them. If all ascended armor has a huge gold price added to it, your hurting the players that enjoy raids as they are right now.

Now, you might point out that easy mode would give less magnetite than hard mode. But that is irrelevant, as T4 fractals give much more relics/pristines than T1, and yet the fractal prices are still horrible because of this.

Raid Normal/Hard Mode

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Posted by: reikken.4961

reikken.4961

it would be nice if i actually had the time or equipment to learn a raid……

It doesn’t actually take that much. If you’ve been playing the rest of the game, you should have some ascended trinkets. But if you don’t, that’s totally fine. The only important thing is an ascended weapon (only your main hand one really matters), which isn’t all that expensive. And that’s all you need. The rest can be exotic without any noticeable effect. And if anyone is demanding ascended armor, you’re gonna have a bad time raiding with them for other reasons than your armor.

Raid Normal/Hard Mode

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Posted by: Blaeys.3102

Blaeys.3102

To all saying multiple difficulties would somehow diminish or ruin the game, it’s time for a dose of reality.

  • The reality is that 3-4 new raid bosses a quarter will never be enough to keep the hardcore raiding players interested in the game mode long term. It’s a significant investment for a very minimal return.
  • Likewise, they cannot really integrate any meaningful rewards that exceed what is available in the rest of the game for fear of alienating other players.
  • Raids in their current form cannot be used as meaningful story telling tools for accessibility and continuity reasons.
  • The further segmentation of the PVE community as numbers in game decline between expansions (which just happens – it isn’t a negative) doesn’t fit with the content model they have used successfully for years – which is to encourage people to play together- not apart.
  • Raids have, for many, removed the illusion of choice from the game. Players are turning into carbon copy chronomancers, warriors, druids and elementalists (all the same build – all the same playstyle – all the same group comps – soon to all look the same with Legendary Armor). It takes some of the magic out of the game, even for those who do not raid, when this kind of thing happens to the community (and I definitely believe it is having an impact on the game).

Those are the negatives, but there is also a TON of potential to adding scaling systems:

  • It opens up the design of 10-player content for more casual purposes (an actual working Toypocalypse comes to mind).
  • It allows for the full integration of Living Story into 10 player content (as potential side stories), giving the developers reason to develop raid content faster – and revisit it more often as well.
  • It brings the game back to an inclusive, rather than exclusionary, feel – something I feel has REALLY hurt the game this past year. There need to be more reasons for us to play together (and not just with the other 9 people we deem ready for raids) or the game will continue in bad direction.
  • It gives people who want to retain that illusion of choice a place to experience the content without being detrimental to a party.

I do not think raids are a bad addition to the game. I just feel, given the resources they have and the nature of this particular game, raiding in its current form brings more negatives than positives to the current game dynamic.

Hopefully ArenaNet sees this in 2017 before some other MMO latches onto the vision they had at launch and makes the game we actually came here to play – rather than what GW2 is becoming (something that very well may happen given how many of the original developers are elsewhere developing games now).

(edited by Blaeys.3102)

Raid Normal/Hard Mode

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

  • The reality is that 3-4 new raid bosses a quarter will never be enough to keep the hardcore raiding players interested in the game mode long term. It’s a significant investment for a very minimal return.

3-4 new raid bosses a quarter would be amazing to be honest but I doubt we’ll get 3-4 raid bosses per quarter, more like 3-4 per year or 6 months. Why are you saying it won’t be enough?

  • Likewise, they cannot really integrate any meaningful rewards that exceed what is available in the rest of the game for fear of alienating other players.

Ascended will be the final tier forever, and legendary tier will be ascended with stat swap, that was promised and won’t change any time soon. That’s the reason they cannot add rewards that “exceed” what is available in the rest of the game. They will simply do what they did with the first raid, another legendary item, like a trinket or backpack with the next Raid(s) and new skins. That’s how all other types of content work.

  • Raids in their current form cannot be used as meaningful story telling tools for accessibility and continuity reasons.

They should never be used as meaningful story telling tools. The big mistake with the first Raid was taking 6 whole months to complete it, and while we were waiting for the raid wings to finish, the game got no meaningful updates. Even with an easy/story mode that’s a terrible thing to do, postponing content for so long due to raid releases, it was a mistake and I hope their narrative/story team can do a better job next time.

  • The further segmentation of the PVE community as numbers in game decline between expansions (which just happens – it isn’t a negative) doesn’t fit with the content model they have used successfully for years – which is to encourage people to play together- not apart.

New tiers for raids also cause segmentation.

  • Raids have, for many, removed the illusion of choice from the game.

Funny that’s how the game always was in the past when more and more people were doing dungeon runs. Dungeons died and posts asking for easy modes for dungeons died too. Posts complaining about variety and exclusion also died. That’s the reason

Raid Normal/Hard Mode

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Posted by: Miellyn.6847

Miellyn.6847

  • The reality is that 3-4 new raid bosses a quarter will never be enough to keep the hardcore raiding players interested in the game mode long term. It’s a significant investment for a very minimal return.

The same amout of bosses with a development time of half a year or greater won’t keep anyone in this game mode.

  • Likewise, they cannot really integrate any meaningful rewards that exceed what is available in the rest of the game for fear of alienating other players.

Horizontal progression. Raids are not supposed to drop better loot than the rest of the game. Legendaries are QoL upgrades, not better than ascended. Also you can also aquire weapons only through open world PvE.

  • Raids in their current form cannot be used as meaningful story telling tools for accessibility and continuity reasons.

ArenaNet said, that raids are not intended to advance the primary story.

  • The further segmentation of the PVE community as numbers in game decline between expansions (which just happens – it isn’t a negative) doesn’t fit with the content model they have used successfully for years – which is to encourage people to play together- not apart.

Every game mode has that problem, more difficulties makes this even worse not better. Imagine multiple difficulties for open world. Fractals are mostly played at T4, other scales take already significantly longer to form groups.

  • Raids have, for many, removed the illusion of choice from the game. Players are turning into carbon copy chronomancers, warriors, druids and elementalists (all the same build – all the same playstyle – all the same group comps – soon to all look the same with Legendary Armor). It takes some of the magic out of the game, even for those who do not raid, when this kind of thing happens to the community (and I definitely believe it is having an impact on the game).

Dungeons and fractals, WvW and sPvP did the same. Only people straight from open world into raids have the ‘Illusion of Choice’. So only open world for everyone?
Free choice will never happen in any MMORPG, there is always a best option for a certain playstyle. It never existed in GW2 outside of open world either.

Those are the negatives, but there is also a TON of potential to adding scaling systems:

  • It allows for the full integration of Living Story into 10 player content (as potential side stories), giving the developers reason to develop raid content faster – and revisit it more often as well.

There was a reason Arah story mode was made into a singleplayer instance. Story content is not supposed to require a group.
Faster raid content (so around the actual development cycle, as multiple difficulties will be much slower) will need more devs in the raidteam, slowing the rest of the content development which will be also slower due multiple difficulties. Sounds good, next potential content drought.

  • It brings the game back to an inclusive, rather than exclusionary, feel – something I feel has REALLY hurt the game this past year. There need to be more reasons for us to play together (and not just with the other 9 people we deem ready for raids) or the game will continue in bad direction.

So the same as fractals or dungeons back in the day?

  • It gives people who want to retain that illusion of choice a place to experience the content without being detrimental to a party.

Open world

I do not think raids are a bad addition to the game. I just feel, given the resources they have and the nature of this particular game, raiding in its current form brings more negatives than positives to the current game dynamic.

Hopefully ArenaNet sees this in 2017 before some other MMO latches onto the vision they had at launch and makes the game we actually came here to play – rather than what GW2 is becoming (something that very well may happen given how many of the original developers are elsewhere developing games now).

The vision of the game was always that it contains some content for better or more involved players. Dungeons didn’t fulfill it, neither did fractals. Only because it didn’t appear until HoT don’t mean that it was never intended. You confuse how you see the game and how it was intended.
And your writing sounds like you want to turn GW2 into a WoW clone, so there is already a game that fits your needs…

Meena Wolfsgeist | Ranger
Ceana Mera | Mesmer
Indra Nebelklinge | Revenant

(edited by Miellyn.6847)

Raid Normal/Hard Mode

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Posted by: Blaeys.3102

Blaeys.3102

maddoctor.2738 said:
3-4 new raid bosses a quarter would be amazing to be honest but I doubt we’ll get 3-4 raid bosses per quarter, more like 3-4 per year or 6 months. Why are you saying it won’t be enough?

My response:
You are right, I was being generous.

The reason it wont be enough is that, given the path raids are taking, they are essentially becoming a game within a game – something more akin to WvW or PvP than fractals, dungeons or LS. And while WvW and PvP have the inherent randomness that living opponents bring to the table – thus keeping the content fresh to a degree – raids will never have that. They have to rely on new content drops.

Successful raiding in other MMOs is possible because raiding is established as the pinnacle of end game – the thing all PVE players are working toward. That is where you fight the final boss – it is the achievement. Because they take this approach (and because they almost ALL have scaling difficulties in some form), they can put out multiple very detailed raids every year, spanning dozens of new raid fights.

GW2 will never be able to compete with that without completely changing the way the game works (which they shouldn’t do). That means raids will always be a niche in this game and, eventually, serious raiders will realize the serious raids – on regular schedules – are to be found elsewhere.

And, to add to it, think about what happens when Legendary Armor actually makes it into the game. I’m 99% sure the reason it isn’t in already has nothing to do with development time. It is because, once that carrot has been achieved, Anet realizes they have a real problem. How much effort do they put into ongoing special rewards for a small (and most likely by that time, severely diminishing) percentage of players. And while hardcore raiders may do the content once or twice for the challenge/fun, it is highly unlikely they will repeat it without the unique reward as incentive – which cuts the number of raiders between content drops significantly (it is a snowball type of issue).

That puts them in a huge rock and a hard spot situation. They either start churning out more raid-specific unique rewards (creating a real have/have not dynamic between raiders and non raiders in game) or they forego unique rewards, which would cut down the number of hardcore raiders significantly.

Raids need a sustainable model that warrants ongoing – and frequent – support. That means they need more people doing them. It’s simple logic that we see played out in pretty much any MMO with a successful raid model.

To your point about dungeons, yes, there was a small subset of players that played to a meta, but it was never seen as a wide spread requirement the way the community does with raids. Taking a bunker warrior or guardian to Arah didn’t diminish your group’s chances of success – it just added a little extra time to the run. People had the illusion of choice without significantly hurting the chances of completing the content (not talking about speed runs). You can say raids are doable with pretty much any gear (and that is true), but the reality is that certain builds make completion much easier, which wasn’t true to the same degree with dungeons (fractals aren’t really a viable example because – interestingly – they do have a successful scaling system in place already).

(edited by Blaeys.3102)

Raid Normal/Hard Mode

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

The reason it wont be enough is that, given the path raids are taking, they are essentially becoming a game within a game – something more akin to WvW or PvP than fractals, dungeons or LS. And while WvW and PvP have the inherent randomness that living opponents bring to the table – thus keeping the content fresh to a degree – raids will never have that. They have to rely on new content drops.

Not really. Unfortunately we don’t have enough stats to compare those who are raiding with those who are running dungeons or fractals but the amount of players in fractals isn’t exactly super high. T1 is mostly done for the achievements and not for regular runs, T2 is also for achievements but not as much as T2 and T3 is mostly dead even after they added the T3 daily recommended. Once you get enough AR, even if your personal level is low there is zero reason to run anything but T4 unless you want to finish some collection achievements.

I can say with certainty that more than half the people I’ve raided with haven’t touched T4 fractals at all or some of them went to fractals back when they were new and never farmed them afterwards. Re-running the occasional new fractal for its achievements and that’s it. You can also feel it on these forums when players are saying how hard it is to gear up for Raids, when in reality it takes only a fraction of the cost than gearing for fractals (no expensive AR needed).

Given how hard it will be to make tiers for Raids because they weren’t built with tiers in mind, adding tiers for them to be dead soon after isn’t exactly healthy for the game. When they add a new Fractal they don’t have to tweak anything for the different tiers because fractals already have a scaling mechanic that changes hit points and damage (which is the only difference). Adding a fractal takes the work of creating ONE fractal. Raid tiers can’t possibly be only about hit points and damage so it’s not an automatic process like with fractals. Which means the more tiers added, the slower the releases will be.

I hope you will try to get some data to support how Raids are like WvW and PvP and not like Fractals/Dungeons because I believe Raids aren’t like that at all.

Raid Normal/Hard Mode

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Posted by: Blaeys.3102

Blaeys.3102

I hope you will try to get some data to support how Raids are like WvW and PvP and not like Fractals/Dungeons because I believe Raids aren’t like that at all.

Obviously I’m not basing the comment on numbers or hard data (which – in both my and your fractal example – only Anet really has), but rather on Anet’s own admission that raids – in their current iteration – were developed for a smaller number of players – eg, they were designed to be exclusive. That is more akin to wvw or pvp than it is to something like fractals, which – whether you think people play low levels or not (I think they do, but again, only Anet probably has that data) – were designed to offer similar experiences to the majority of players.

Raids are designed to be exclusive. The issue is I don’t think that system is sustainable, for the reasons I list above (such as snowballing reward issue once we get past legendary armor and the continual degradation of build/profession diversity in the playerbase). Raids need better mass appeal, something that will be hard to do regardless of the path they choose – tiered difficulties just seem like the most logical way to make that happen (and once Anet realizes that they can do it and still market the content as “hardcore” outside of the game I am confident it will happen).

(edited by Blaeys.3102)

Raid Normal/Hard Mode

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

Obviously I’m not basing the comment on numbers or hard data (which – in both my and your fractal example – only Anet really has), but rather on Anet’s own admission that raids – in their current iteration – were developed for a smaller number of players – eg, they were designed to be exclusive.

Fractals and dungeons were also developed for a smaller number of players. Anything that is not press 1 to win is designed for a smaller number of players, not everyone will do it.

Raid Normal/Hard Mode

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Posted by: Lonami.2987

Lonami.2987

It’s pretty simple, raids, like any content, need a healthy population to be viable in the long term. So the current scenario is either most of the playerbase becomes better at the game, or raid population won’t be enough.

It’s a matter of numbers, and consequently money. If the raid team stopped doing raids and started doing casual content that is played by far more people than raids, and said increase in population leads to more gem sales, then why bother with raids at all?

Easy/Normal/Hard modes are necessary, because without them, raids won’t be profitable. You need an easy mode so that players can learn the encounters at their own pace, and you need a hard mode because let’s face it, raids are a joke for good teams.

The other alternative is mixing bosses of different difficulties in a single raid mode, pretty much leading to things like escort and bandit trio, which are usually hated by the same elitists that don’t want difficulty modes. Congratulations, I guess. We could have a full wing of challenging bosses, but your opposition to them forces us to deal with pointless filler.

Elonian elite specialization ideas: El: Dervish
M: Bladedancer – N: Scourge – En: Occultist – Ra: Swampstalker
T: Sharpshooter – G: Sunspear – Re: Hierophant – W: Corsair

Raid Normal/Hard Mode

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Posted by: Yobculture.5786

Yobculture.5786

It’s pretty simple, raids, like any content, need a healthy population to be viable in the long term. So the current scenario is either most of the playerbase becomes better at the game, or raid population won’t be enough.

It’s a matter of numbers, and consequently money. If the raid team stopped doing raids and started doing casual content that is played by far more people than raids, and said increase in population leads to more gem sales, then why bother with raids at all?

Easy/Normal/Hard modes are necessary, because without them, raids won’t be profitable. You need an easy mode so that players can learn the encounters at their own pace, and you need a hard mode because let’s face it, raids are a joke for good teams.

The other alternative is mixing bosses of different difficulties in a single raid mode, pretty much leading to things like escort and bandit trio, which are usually hated by the same elitists that don’t want difficulty modes. Congratulations, I guess. We could have a full wing of challenging bosses, but your opposition to them forces us to deal with pointless filler.

I’m up for a more challenging raid difficulty mode

just not an easier one

Far Shiverpeaks

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Posted by: thrag.9740

thrag.9740

It’s pretty simple, raids, like any content, need a healthy population to be viable in the long term. So the current scenario is either most of the playerbase becomes better at the game, or raid population won’t be enough.

Raid population seems fine to me. I see lfg posts all the time. I see guilds clearing all the time etc. My guild has a lot of training runs, we are investing in our own population and its fine.

It’s a matter of numbers, and consequently money. If the raid team stopped doing raids and started doing casual content that is played by far more people than raids, and said increase in population leads to more gem sales, then why bother with raids at all?

How do you know this is true? If raiders are less casual, they would most likely spend more money on things like salvage-o-matic, bank tabs, character slots etc. I myself have spent probably around $100 on those items, after returning to gw2. The reason I returned was raids. If they quit making raids, I will probably get bored and leave again. Maybe they replace me with 10 casuals. But will those 10 casuals collectively outspend me? I don’t know, but neither do you.

Easy/Normal/Hard modes are necessary, because without them, raids won’t be profitable. You need an easy mode so that players can learn the encounters at their own pace, and you need a hard mode because let’s face it, raids are a joke for good teams.

See my post above, where I explain how based on their previous statements, anet would have to nerf raid rewards if they implemented easy mode. Hardly profitable as you claimed.

The other alternative is mixing bosses of different difficulties in a single raid mode, pretty much leading to things like escort and bandit trio, which are usually hated by the same elitists that don’t want difficulty modes. Congratulations, I guess. We could have a full wing of challenging bosses, but your opposition to them forces us to deal with pointless filler.

I like this system. Casual players can work towards legendary armor via a weekly escort, it just takes them longer than hardcore players. Your suggesting that implementing a scaling system would lead to use having the same number of bosses as now, but all of them could scale to Matthias difficulty or higher. I don’t think that’s true. Anet has overhauled the entirety of fractals several times because of their pursuit of a scaling system. Those overhauls could have been spent on new fractals. Scaling systems are more complicated than you give credit for. Forcing a scaling system on raiding, will make the creation of new raids even slower.

We have watched for years as anet continues to try to recreate the wheel, rather than turn out new content. Fractal overhaul (3 or 4 times now?), wvw overhaul (only to then backtrack on half the changes), trait system overhaul (several times now). They released a 50$ half expansion because half their development team was spent overhauling stuff like how to craft a precursor. Now we finally have a team that actually focuses on making new content, and you want to force them to do the same mediocre garbage that the rest of the company does?

Raid Normal/Hard Mode

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

Let’s do some statistics for science! I’ll be using that website we all know and love/hate because it’s the only place we can get statistics from.
First I measure which percentage of players have dungeon tokens of each dungeon:

Ascalonian Catacombs: 88.5%
Caudecus Manor: 75.5%
Twilight Arbor: 78.5%
Sorrows Embrace: 71%
Citadel of Flame: 83%
Honor of Waves: 69%
Arah: 73%

The problem with this one is that we don’t know which ones are from actually running the dungeon and which ones are from pvp farming. It’s easy to say that a much lower amount of players are actually running, or used to run, the dungeons due to how easy it is to get the tokens in PVP farm maps. Also, I assume that all those with 0 tokens never run the dungeon, because of how you get and spend tokens you must actively try to zero them. Still, the statistics paint a nice picture, the percentage of players that have tokens is from 69% (lowest)-88.5%(highest).

Second, let’s check fractals:
T0 (never run fractals): 10%
T1 (2-25): 29.5%
T2 (26-50): 19.5%
T3 (51-75): 12.5%
T4 (76-100): 27.5%
T100: 14%

14% of the players are level 100 in Fractals and only 27.5% have access to T4 rewards in general. There is obviously some exclusion here, it’s also worth noting how T2 and T3 have a lower amount of players than T1 and T4 which is normal, those who decide to get out of T1 try to get to T4. T1 is used for the precursor collections but it doesn’t offer the full rewards of fractals, no infused rings, no ascended armor or weapons, so T1 is very limited in the rewards it offers.

On the flip side, the percentage of players with at least 1 legendary insight is at 29% which is higher than the amount of players running T4 fractals. Also keep in mind that we had fractals and dungeons for years while only one of the raid wings has passed the 1 year mark, the others are more recent.

In conclusion, I think dungeons and fractals are by definition exclusive as harder-instanced content. And Raids are just like them, also exclusive as harder instanced content and the logical continuation of Fractals

Raid Normal/Hard Mode

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

Side by side T4 fractals and Raids for science:

T4 Fractals:
Everyone: 27.5%
0-500h: 1%
500-1000h: 7.5%
1000-2000h: 23%
2000-4000h: 42.5%
4000h+: 61%

Raids:
Everyone: 29%
0-500h: 3%
500-1000h: 11%
1000-2000h: 25.5%
2000-4000h: 44%
4000h+: 61.5%

On all /age ratings Raids are surpassing T4 Fractals but by a very small amount. This is some very interesting data that shows the appeal of Raids compared to T4 Fractals

Also, let’s take a look at personal reward level 100 in fractals:

Level 100 Fractals
Everyone: 14%
0-500h: 0%
500-1000h: 1.5%
1000-2000h: 8%
2000-4000h: 21.5%
4000h+: 40%

(edited by maddoctor.2738)

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Posted by: Assic.2746

Assic.2746

It definitely needs to happen for a lot of reasons – from accessibility to story to keeping raids more relevant for larger groups of people. Most of these points have been raised MANY times in the past year. It really is in the hands of the devs now.

Be wary, however – the general reaction to these topics in this particular subforum is often less than cordial. The general strategy is often to shame (“its already easy – you must suck at the game” style comments) or insult people asking for this until they give up.

With that in mind, I am glad to see the topic resurfacing on a regular basis. It’s important that developers know there is a desire for this in the game’s community – despite the trolling and attempts to shut the conversation down.

Except the fact that the conversation was nailed by the Raid Team long time ago.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/A-Suggestion-For-Raids/first#post6403471

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Posted by: Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

Obviously I’m not basing the comment on numbers or hard data (which – in both my and your fractal example – only Anet really has), but rather on Anet’s own admission that raids – in their current iteration – were developed for a smaller number of players – eg, they were designed to be exclusive.

Fractals and dungeons were also developed for a smaller number of players.

Massive changes to both done in the name of accessibility seem to show otherwise. Granted, they were not meant for everyone (because nothing can be for everyone), but they both were meant for “an average player”. Not some small niche minority, like raids.

I’m up for a more challenging raid difficulty mode

just not an easier one

Congratulations, if you were able to run the hard and normal mode, you’d also be perfectly fine completely ignoring the easy one.
It wouldn’t impact you in the slightest.

It’s a matter of numbers, and consequently money. If the raid team stopped doing raids and started doing casual content that is played by far more people than raids, and said increase in population leads to more gem sales, then why bother with raids at all?

How do you know this is true? If raiders are less casual, they would most likely spend more money on things like salvage-o-matic, bank tabs, character slots etc. I myself have spent probably around $100 on those items, after returning to gw2.

First, hardcore players are always far less numerous. Second, in GW2, they are far more likely to use in-game gold for those purchases. It’s mostly so called “dedicated casuals” (people who have time to play, but a casual approach to the game) that spend the most.
Also, hardcores are more likely to concentrate on actual QoL and p2w stuff (and there’s no real p2w stuff in gw2), but, in the absence of the latter, it’s the vanity items (and gambling addiction stuff like bl keys) that take up the most part of the gemshop and likely bring the most income.

@Maddoctor
Those data are taken from g2efficiency, right? You do realize, that this site is strongly biased towards the hardcore crowd, right? Overrepresentation of raiders is a given (and the non-raiders/non-dungeon/fractal players are far more likely to be TP barons, or WvW/spvp players than casuals)

Except the fact that the conversation was nailed by the Raid Team long time ago.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/A-Suggestion-For-Raids/first#post6403471

They haven’t actually said anything definite there. Sure, the Raids were not originally intended for tiers. They never said however they couldn’t make those. Or that they never will.
They also did mention they are discussing accessibility (which they wouldn’t do if they thought it’s fine).

Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November

(edited by Astralporing.1957)

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

Massive changes to both done in the name of accessibility seem to show otherwise. Granted, they were not meant for everyone (because nothing can be for everyone), but they both were meant for “an average player”. Not some small niche minority, like raids.

No they weren’t. When was the last time you killed Simin or Giganticus Lupicus I wonder.

Those data are taken from g2efficiency, right?

I was comparing other “hard” types of content with Raids, like T4 fractals, or you are saying that casuals are doing more T4 and would lead to different results? Also, the actual data do not reinforce the idea that the gw2efficiency users are “hardcore” at all, if it was such a raiders website then all of them would be raiding right? Or all of them would be doing T4 fractals but in reality they don’t. The percentages don’t confirm this idea that the gw2efficiency population is some hardcore minority, there are more than enough players using it even for just the search function. Or the crafting. It’s not a raider’s website. 39.5% of the gw2efficiency population hasn’t even gone beyond level 25 of fractals, that’s really hardcore indeed.

They haven’t actually said anything definite there. Sure, the Raids were not originally intended for tiers. They never said however they couldn’t make those. Or that they never will.

Got some reading comprehension problems?

Tier systems for Raids come up a lot as a result of what Fractals did. I worked on the original Fractals team and a tiered system with increased difficulty scaling was always part of the original plan for that team. It was never a plan for Raids. They are, and should remain, the most difficult content in the game.

Tiers were never a plan for Raids. Even if tiers were added some time in the future the lowest tier would still need to be higher difficulty than anything else in the game (should remain is rather clear on that)

(edited by maddoctor.2738)

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Posted by: SuperduperMLGbsns.9345

SuperduperMLGbsns.9345

So many numbers, so much bla bla. At the end of the day I barely to never play Raids since I had a break and dont have 5000 LI that I can post.
With over 7 sets and 20+ asc weapons it was not possible for me to find reliable groups because of this bullcrap.
And that is the actual problem why not enough playing Raids imo.

If I agreed with you, we’d both be wrong.

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Posted by: Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

Massive changes to both done in the name of accessibility seem to show otherwise. Granted, they were not meant for everyone (because nothing can be for everyone), but they both were meant for “an average player”. Not some small niche minority, like raids.

No they weren’t. When was the last time you killed Simin or Giganticus Lupicus I wonder.

Simin i might agree, but mainly because to the history of bugs that encounter had. Lupicus, if you didn’t try to do him the “pro” way, wasn’t all that hard even before HoT power creep. And both of those encounters were on the most difficult end of what dungeons had to offer – you’re conveniently ignoring here the other end, like AC’s Colossus Rumblus.

The difference between hardcore and average on dungeons was not whether that dungeon was finished succesfully, but at most how fast would that happen

I was comparing other “hard” types of content with Raids, like T4 fractals, or you are saying that casuals are doing more T4 and would lead to different results?

Noticed, how some raiders mentioned that they don’t really run fractals anymore? Just as at some time more hardcore players switched from dungeons to fractals, now many of those players switched from fractals to raids. Nothing surprising here.

Also, the actual data do not reinforce the idea that the gw2efficiency users are “hardcore” at all, if it was such a raiders website then all of them would be raiding right?

Nah. It’s the site for players that visit gaming sites, use offgame resources, and find those resources like gw2eff useful. Most casuals do not visit forums, much less register on some other gaming sites. They are unlikely to even know that gw2eff exists. Thus, it’s rather clear that efficiency membership will be strongly biased towards not-so-casual players. Raiders, of course, but also TP barons, pvp players, WvW players, AP ultraachievers etc.

I’m really surprised that you seem to be unaware of this.

39.5% of the gw2efficiency population hasn’t even gone beyond level 25 of fractals, that’s really hardcore indeed.

Remember, that a year ago 90% of the active population was below 4k ap? Remember, that at the time of deadeye farming, and scarlet invasion farm events, the median income during the whole week for active players was 2 gold (no, not per day. Per whole week)? That’s your average player.

They haven’t actually said anything definite there. Sure, the Raids were not originally intended for tiers. They never said however they couldn’t make those. Or that they never will.

Got some reading comprehension problems?

Tier systems for Raids come up a lot as a result of what Fractals did. I worked on the original Fractals team and a tiered system with increased difficulty scaling was always part of the original plan for that team. It was never a plan for Raids. They are, and should remain, the most difficult content in the game.

Tiers were never a plan for Raids. Even if tiers were added some time in the future the lowest tier would still need to be higher difficulty than anything else in the game (should remain is rather clear on that)

There were many things that weren’t originally planned and yet made it into the game. Saying that they didn’t plan for it is not the same as saying they will not do it.
And the second statement is not so clear as it may seem to you. First, “should” is not “will”. Second, as long as the “hardest” raid tier would be of higher difficulty than anything else, it might be considered to be satisfied as well.
Or, you know, they might just not call the easy mode version “raids”.

And, even if they do mean this at the moment, it doesn’t mean they won’t change their minds later on. They did so on many other things after all. Raids themselves are such a change, for example.

Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

Simin i might agree, but mainly because to the history of bugs that encounter had. Lupicus, if you didn’t try to do him the “pro” way, wasn’t all that hard even before HoT power creep. And both of those encounters were on the most difficult end of what dungeons had to offer – you’re conveniently ignoring here the other end, like AC’s Colossus Rumblus.

I don’t care about the easy bosses. I’m sick and tired of reading about the dungeon accessibility and how people want a raid “mode” of dungeon difficulty, when in reality they want AC/CoF P1 difficulty. At least be honest and don’t hide.

Noticed, how some raiders mentioned that they don’t really run fractals anymore? Just as at some time more hardcore players switched from dungeons to fractals, now many of those players switched from fractals to raids. Nothing surprising here.

You cannot lose fractal level last I checked. If they don’t run fractals now, they didn’t run fractals all those years ago? Or they somehow turned hardcore after raids and were full casual before raids? You get statistics of what people are running now somehow because I can’t.

Most casuals do not visit forums, much less register on some other gaming sites.

That doesn’t prove anything when you have a direct comparison between relevant game types. Those casuals who don’t visit forums won’t do T4 fractals so the comparison is valid.

That’s_ your average player.

No it’s not. Now you are using statistics out of nowhere.

There were many things that weren’t originally planned and yet made it into the game.

Irrelevant.

And, even if they do mean this at the moment, it doesn’t mean they won’t change their minds later on. They did so on many other things after all. Raids themselves are such a change, for example.

And this is also irrelevant, what will happen in 3 years is anyone’s guess. But at the moment, they were really clear about what they want raids to be (hardest content), period. You are arguing over “should” and “will” now? People will try and twist anything these days.

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Posted by: thrag.9740

thrag.9740

How do you know this is true? If raiders are less casual, they would most likely spend more money on things like salvage-o-matic, bank tabs, character slots etc. I myself have spent probably around $100 on those items, after returning to gw2.

First, hardcore players are always far less numerous. Second, in GW2, they are far more likely to use in-game gold for those purchases. It’s mostly so called “dedicated casuals” (people who have time to play, but a casual approach to the game) that spend the most.
Also, hardcores are more likely to concentrate on actual QoL and p2w stuff (and there’s no real p2w stuff in gw2), but, in the absence of the latter, it’s the vanity items (and gambling addiction stuff like bl keys) that take up the most part of the gemshop and likely bring the most income.

If you finish reading that paragraph you will see I said, ‘Maybe they replace me with 10 casuals. But will those 10 casuals collectively outspend me? I don’t know, but neither do you.’. Still true, stop pretending you know this is a fact.

You claim that hardcore players would do gold to gems. I think that is incorrect. Typically harder content in gw2 is less rewarding than casual content. Pre hot, consider three activities: sw chest farm, dungeons, fractal 50. Of the 3, sw chest farm was clearly the most casual, and for a typical player, gave more gold than fractals, and was at least competitive with dungeons. Fractals gave you a lot of value through ascended, but that can not be exchanged for gems.

Similarly right now, I would argue that as far as liquid rewards go, most people lose liquidity raiding. They gain a lot of value via ascended drops/magnetite shards. Meanwhile AB MM is still insanely good gold per hour. Players that pretty much only do raids are losing liquidity while gaining value, compared to players that do casual content who gain liquidity and value.

Lets look even further, do raiders get dailies (and the associated gold) just for doing the content they like, like pvpers, wvwers, and open world pve players do? No, they don’t. This notion that raider = rich in liquid gold seems unlikely to me.

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Posted by: Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

I don’t care about the easy bosses. I’m sick and tired of reading about the dungeon accessibility and how people want a raid “mode” of dungeon difficulty, when in reality they want AC/CoF P1 difficulty. At least be honest and don’t hide.

I wouldn’t mind Arah difficulty. The real problem with Arah was not difficulty, but the fact that it was just too long. The encounters themselves weren’t that hard, there was just more of those than in “easy” dungeons, and there was a lot more of the trash mobs in between those encounters as well.
That and a lot of bosses just had a ton of hps, so doing the encounters unoptimally also took a lot of time.

You cannot lose fractal level last I checked. If they don’t run fractals now, they didn’t run fractals all those years ago? Or they somehow turned hardcore after raids and were full casual before raids? You get statistics of what people are running now somehow because I can’t.

Point. Of course, a lot of those people without fractal levels would be TP barons, and pvp/WvW players. Also hardcore, just playing a different kind of game.

Those casuals who don’t visit forums won’t do T4 fractals

Why? You don’t need forums or gaming guides to do them. You just learn mechanics from other players at lower tiers and you’re set. Even the gear is not a big problem – it just takes a lot of time. I’ve seen quite a lot of players like that.

And this is also irrelevant, what will happen in 3 years is anyone’s guess. But at the moment, they were really clear about what they want raids to be (hardest content), period.

They were as clear about where they wanted the gear tiers to be, few months before ascended were introduced. They were also very adamant about not having expac and sticking to living world type updates, at a time where (as we know now) they had to be at least already considering changing that.

So,we might be 3 years away from that, but at the same time we can also be only a single decision by Mo’s from it. And said decision could possibly happen tomorrow. Except it won’t happen, if we (we, as people interested in easy mode) won’t keep reminding devs about it. Just as at some time raiders kept reminding devs that they wanted raids.

The only difference here is that you have already got what you wanted, while i haven’t. Yet.

Lets look even further, do raiders get dailies (and the associated gold) just for doing the content they like, like pvpers, wvwers, and open world pve players do? No, they don’t. This notion that raider = rich in liquid gold seems unlikely to me.

I don’t know about you, but casuals in general do not get dailies for doing the content they like. They get them for doing the content devs want them to do.
You might be thinking about the previous version of dailies, which was far more player friendly.

Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November

(edited by Astralporing.1957)

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

I wouldn’t mind Arah difficulty.

Good. You know some Raid encounters are easier than some of the Arah bosses, especially for certain Raid roles which are having an easy time.

Also hardcore, just playing a different kind of game.

Which isn’t something you can confirm using any kind of statistic. How do you figure a tp baron? or a PVP/WVW player? So all those 40% of players that didn’t even reach out of T1 fractals are tp barons and pvp/wvw players… and of course by your logic a raider or t4 runner cannot be a pvp/wvw player nor a tp baron.

Why?

Because the data we have shows that the hardcore players do not do T4 fractals. How do you figure the casuals do? Or is T4 fractals a casual activity?

The only difference here is that you have already got what you wanted, while i haven’t.

In 2 years the game itself might not even exist for some reason or a nuclear bomb might destroy the servers for all we know.

The dev quote is clear about the current intent and won’t change by forum posters. Keep in mind that the Ascended change didn’t happen because people asked for it on the forums but because they show metrics for it, people acquiring exotics then getting bored and leaving the game.
Similar with Raids, they show the appeal certain hardcore encounters had in the game, and they added many many of those in the open world near the end of LS1. Talking about universally liked events like Marionette and the Battle of LA. Also, how a segment of the population was faithfully running dungeons like Arah even though it had zero updates or horrible loot for years, or players reaching higher tier fractals when it was near impossible to do so without using cheese tactics (Guardian Tomes).
They show a potential to tap there too. It’s unthinkable for game policy to depend on forum posts, I doubt they even read all of them. They have metrics, they see what happens and they make decisions.

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Posted by: Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

I wouldn’t mind Arah difficulty.

Good. You know some Raid encounters are easier than some of the Arah bosses, especially for certain Raid roles which are having an easy time.

Pehaps for some roles, but in general, say, Lupicus is easier than an escort. You can’t solo the escort event, if things go wrong, for example.

Also hardcore, just playing a different kind of game.

Which isn’t something you can confirm using any kind of statistic. How do you figure a tp baron? or a PVP/WVW player? So all those 40% of players that didn’t even reach out of T1 fractals are tp barons and pvp/wvw players… and of course by your logic a raider or t4 runner cannot be a pvp/wvw player nor a tp baron.

Some of them. Not all of them. Not to mention there are also secondary accounts of abovementioned players.
Of course, there will be some casuals mixed in this, but they will be significantly underrepresented.

Why?

Because the data we have shows that the hardcore players do not do T4 fractals. How do you figure the casuals do? Or is T4 fractals a casual activity?

Because i personally know a lot of people like that? (And yes, at least some fractals are a casual activity after you get used to them).

The only difference here is that you have already got what you wanted, while i haven’t.

In 2 years the game itself might not even exist for some reason or a nuclear bomb might destroy the servers for all we know.

Sure. The more the reason to ask for changes now.

The dev quote is clear about the current intent and won’t change by forum posters. Keep in mind that the Ascended change didn’t happen because people asked for it on the forums but because they show metrics for it, people acquiring exotics then getting bored and leaving the game.

They introduced them 3 months after the game started. They had to start working on them at least a month before, probably earlier. That was too early to have any meaningful metrics at that moment. Any and all data they had would have been drowned out by the wave of content locust and people that would have left anyway (because they simply bought a game not yet knowing what was inside, and it turns out they guessed the content wrong).

It’s unthinkable for game policy to depend on forum posts, I doubt they even read all of them. They have metrics, they see what happens and they make decisions.

I doubt they depend on forum posts, but those are important. Without them there’s not enough feedback – metrics can show them tendencies, but only rarely they will reveal the causes of those tendencies. Anet has been known to misread those metrics really badly in the past, you know (Twilight Arbor forward up path comes to mind).

One of the worst things that can happen to a game developer is for players to be disappointed but stay silent about it.

Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

Pehaps for some roles, but in general, say, Lupicus is easier than an escort. You can’t solo the escort event, if things go wrong, for example.

Well it’s 10-man content not 5-man content so it’s obviously harder to carry people. It’s funny that you are giving an example of how people can solo Lupicus though, I’m positive those who can, already beat all the Raid Wings or are very close in doing so. And even for those who haven’t yet, skill and difficulty aren’t what is holding them back. That’s not the type of player asking for tiers or easier raids. And for those who cannot solo Lupicus, Escort is far far easier.

Of course, there will be some casuals mixed in this, but they will be significantly underrepresented.

Got some proof of that? You are always talking about casuals this and casuals that. From how much they spend compared to hardcore players, to how many they are in the game compared to hardcore players. But got any solid proof of your claims?

Because i personally know a lot of people like that?

And I personally know way more people who’ve cleared the Raid than ever touched T4 fractals. In fact in my regular raiding team half of them don’t know what T4 fractals are. Why take your word and not mine?

They introduced them 3 months after the game started.

They introduced what? Rings that don’t even have skins? Rings that just require some UI elements to be created? They didn’t introduce Armor nor Weapons 3 months after launch. Making the Rings shouldn’t take them a month, they got more than enough metrics from the first 1-2 months of the game, because it was that first month that show the hardest drop in players.

Without them there’s not enough feedback – metrics can show them tendencies, but only rarely they will reveal the causes of those tendencies.

I wouldn’t call many (the vast majority in fact) of posts requesting easy mode or tier for raids as valuable feedback and more like a nonsensical childish rant. A “I want easy mode raids” isn’t exactly valid argument nor should it be taken seriously, and I find it even more funny that certain posters like you and some other regular vocal posters go on useless posts like that and try to give them meaning while the OPs disappear into nothingness.

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Posted by: Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

And I personally know way more people who’ve cleared the Raid than ever touched T4 fractals. In fact in my regular raiding team half of them don’t know what T4 fractals are. Why take your word and not mine?

Why not both? It’s not like you’re contradicting me here, after all. Quite the opposite.

Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November

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Posted by: Vinceman.4572

Vinceman.4572

Pehaps for some roles, but in general, say, Lupicus is easier than an escort. You can’t solo the escort event, if things go wrong, for example.

Have to support maddoctor here without exception.
Everybody who is able to solo Lupicus will be able to get raid bosses down easily. Of course not solo but it’s the same thing with higher fractals where even people that solo GL need a group to succeed there. (I know there are some rare exceptions like Sesshi etc.)

Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.

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Posted by: NikeEU.7690

NikeEU.7690

Isn’t having the same argument over and over again super fun? Especially about a settled issue that the devs have been quite clear on. It’s almost like some people like to argue on forums more than actually playing the game or something…

[DnT]::Nike::
www.twitch.tv/nike_dnt

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Posted by: Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

Isn’t having the same argument over and over again super fun? Especially about a settled issue that the devs have been quite clear on. It’s almost like some people like to argue on forums more than actually playing the game or something…

I don’t remember ever starting one of those threads. It’s usually new people that do so. And they keep doing that, because, surprise surprise, the problem is still there.

And to lupicus, let me rephrase that. You can’t fail lupicus due to fail on part of a single person. You can have people downing left and right, and still win with no big problems as long as there’s at least one person able to lead Lupi away so they can ress safely (personally tested, usually i was the person leading Lupi away). With escort, it’s much harder. The margin of failure is just so much, much smaller.

So, again, i’d be completely okay if the “easy mode” was at Arah difficulty. Arah is perfectly fine as far as difficulty goes. It just takes a lot of time if done more casually.

Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November

(edited by Astralporing.1957)

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Posted by: NikeEU.7690

NikeEU.7690

You can’t fail lupicus due to fail on part of a single person.

ORLY: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GouScszU9E8

[DnT]::Nike::
www.twitch.tv/nike_dnt

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Posted by: Vinceman.4572

Vinceman.4572

You can have people downing left and right, and still win with no big problems as long as there’s at least one person able to lead Lupi away so they can ress safely (personally tested, usually i was the person leading Lupi away).

Because Lupi has a consistent aggro mechanic that is always working without any exceptions, right?
Even in these terms raids are better.

Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

Now calling Escort harder (lol) than Lupicus, this is some top quality joke.

Btw I’m still waiting for all the hard data proving the amount of casuals playing Guild Wars 2 is much much higher than the amount of hardcore players and that they spend more money than hardcore players. Real hard evidence, and for Guild Wars 2 specifically.

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Posted by: SkylightMoon.1980

SkylightMoon.1980

I don’t think hard mode would be a good idea. No need to add multiple tiers of difficulty to split up the playerbase.

What I would think would be cool is if each raid had an extra optional boss that was significantly more difficult.

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

What I would think would be cool is if each raid had an extra optional boss that was significantly more difficult.

There is already a great option for that, it’s called achievements.

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Posted by: Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

You can’t fail lupicus due to fail on part of a single person.

ORLY: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GouScszU9E8

That was fail on the part of the whole group, wasn’kitten They could have dodged the aoe and continued in the less than meta way.

You can have people downing left and right, and still win with no big problems as long as there’s at least one person able to lead Lupi away so they can ress safely (personally tested, usually i was the person leading Lupi away).

Because Lupi has a consistent aggro mechanic that is always working without any exceptions, right?
Even in these terms raids are better.

It’s not as consistent as with raids, but it’s consistent enough. As long as 2 people are alive, the one currently holding aggro can lead lupi away, leaving the other one to ress the rest. The room is big enough that it is perfectly safe.

Now calling Escort harder (lol) than Lupicus, this is some top quality joke.

Well, it definitely seemed harder to me. And i have been doing it with the same people i used to run Arah with. Escort definitely requires a higher level of organization and gives you much smaller margin of error. Lupi? You can get through it with a highly complicated strategy of “let’s range it and try not to die”.

Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November

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Posted by: Vinceman.4572

Vinceman.4572

It’s not as consistent as with raids, but it’s consistent enough. As long as 2 people are alive, the one currently holding aggro can lead lupi away, leaving the other one to ress the rest. The room is big enough that it is perfectly safe.

Nah, it’s definitely not. You can desperately try to lure him away but if he is not in the mood he is able to kill all downed first before he switches aggro.

Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.

Raid Normal/Hard Mode

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

It’s not as consistent as with raids, but it’s consistent enough. As long as 2 people are alive, the one currently holding aggro can lead lupi away, leaving the other one to ress the rest. The room is big enough that it is perfectly safe.

Nah, it’s definitely not. You can desperately try to lure him away but if he is not in the mood he is able to kill all downed first before he switches aggro.

So? This is not a raid encounter. Dead can be ressed too.

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Remember, remember, 15th of November

Raid Normal/Hard Mode

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Vinceman.4572

Vinceman.4572

So? This is not a raid encounter. Dead can be ressed too.

And waste time and time and time instead of wipe and respawn/-try.

For raids: /gg and next try.

Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.

Raid Normal/Hard Mode

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Talindra.4958

Talindra.4958

this is the same type of discussion that goes on and on.
tps://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/dungeons/A-Suggestion-For-Raids/first#post6403471

can admin pls close this thread :P

Champion Magus & Phantom, Demon’s Demise, The Archdesigner.
Death is Energy [DIE] – Gandara EU
Australia

Raid Normal/Hard Mode

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

So? This is not a raid encounter. Dead can be ressed too.

And waste time and time and time instead of wipe and respawn/-try.

For raids: /gg and next try.

WIth a casual group, there’s no guarantee that the next attempt will be any better. Better keep ressing. And that’s only in a bad situation, where a lot of people died. Usually there’s no more than one person dead or downed at the same time, and even that is not a constant situation.

And that’s the point – raid encounters do not give you that opportunity to do things way more slowly, but with a better success chance, and they do not really give you a chance to recover after a major messup. As you said, with raids it’s “bam!, /gg and next try”. Over and over again.

So yeah, again, Arah difficulty is perfectly fine.

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Remember, remember, 15th of November

Raid Normal/Hard Mode

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

and a forum bug page mark

Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November