Guild Wars 2

NikeEU.7690:

So we just have a different perspective on where to draw the line for “sorry you aren’t skilled enough.” I think the current raids are easy enough already, you don’t.

Pretty much this. Though i also think you may be simply unaware how high the current bar is (as you see it only in relation to yourself and your friends).

Astralporing.1957:

NikeEU.7690:

So we just have a different perspective on where to draw the line for “sorry you aren’t skilled enough.” I think the current raids are easy enough already, you don’t.

Pretty much this. Though i also think you may be simply unaware how high the current bar is (as you see it only in relation to yourself and your friends).

The devs have the data and they are happy with the skill level of the raiding community. They acknowledge that content now will seem easier than old content due to the increase in the overall skill level of the raiding community. I think it’s more important to think about increasing the difficulty, not lowering it, now that the community has become so good.

In the past year and a half, the overall skill level of the Guild Wars raiding community has risen at a staggering pace. Naturally, content will seem easier now as players continue to refine their theorycrafting and personal skill.

Raiding community is not the whole community, only a small subset. Yeah, the people that kept raiding for the last year will become better at raiding, no surprise here. This in no way affects the rest of the community however.

What i meant is that when raiders speak of new raid wing as being easy, they only compare the difficulty to the raiding community, not to the whole game population, and thus their view is significantly skewed.

Astralporing.1957:

What i meant is that when raiders speak of new raid wing as being easy, they only compare the difficulty to the raiding community, not to the whole game population, and thus their view is significantly skewed.

But the Raids are made for the raiding community (it’s in the name) not the whole game population. Raids being hard for the average Joe who is farming around the Silverwastes isn’t relevant.

maddoctor.2738:

Astralporing.1957:

What i meant is that when raiders speak of new raid wing as being easy, they only compare the difficulty to the raiding community, not to the whole game population, and thus their view is significantly skewed.

But the Raids are made for the raiding community (it’s in the name) not the whole game population.

That’s the core of our disagreement, don’t you think?
You are arguing for keeping them limited for a small subset of people, i am arguing about opening them up for a wider audience. Everything else just follows this.

Astralporing.1957:

You are arguing for keeping them limited for a small subset of people, i am arguing about opening them up for a wider audience.

Opening up Raids for a wider audience is actually a very good thing for the Raids. I’m not opposed to opening them up, I’m opposed to the proposal of this thread on how to achieve this. If you recall, even the devs themselves are discussing internally about their accessibility.

NikeEU.7690:

Astralporing.1957:

NikeEU.7690:

Blaeys.3102:

There is no way a single version of the map is going to meet the gaming desires of all sides of this equation. Thus the need for tiered difficulty or some kind of scaling system (as a really bad example – give better rewards to 8 player groups that beat the content and lesser/almost no rewards for 12 player groups that beat it).

What would you say to low skill players for whom even the easiest reasonable difficulty represents too high of a challenge?

Ah, that entirely depends on what we would consider to be the easiest reasonable challenge. Personally, i really doubt that people unable to do even low tier fractals would be interested in raids. They might still be interested in legendary armor, which is why it should have an alternate acquisition method.

So we just have a different perspective on where to draw the line for “sorry you aren’t skilled enough.” I think the current raids are easy enough already, you don’t.

Bingo. It is – and always has been – about perception.

Let’s be honest for a second. DnT has a different perspective on the game than most players (the same could be said for my guild in a different way, ofc). I am making assumptions here, but from my perspective, you see the value of the game inherently tied into the level and exclusivity of the challenge and its subsequent rewards. That perspective colors how you see the entire game.

And there is nothing wrong with that.

I – and many in my guild – see the value of the game tied more closely to social aspects and interactions between members while we do something fun, challenging (as long as it doesn’t limit which friends I can include) and rewarding. That perspective colors how I see the game.

And there is nothing wrong with that.

So, obviously the two of us are going to draw the line when it comes to new content in very different places.

For me, the whole point of tiered content is to provide new content in ways that more groups can enjoy – and that isn’t possible with a single difficulty imo.

And, for the record, I think that should be a dynamic process. My guess is your raid group has – in the first week – already mastered the new raid, including the challenge motes. That shouldn’t be acceptable to you. There needs to be a greater challenge associated with this content. Otherwise, you will have members eventually get frustrated/bored and abandon the content – meaning fewer people supporting raid content.

At the same time, there are probably a lot of guilds on the other side of the spectrum – even to the point where they are frustrated/bored and considering abandoning the content. While you may knee jerk and say, “oh well. they should just try harder,” (because of your perspective of the game as a whole) the result is the same – fewer people supporting raid content. Anet needs to address that as well.

Astralporing.1957:

Raiding community is not the whole community, only a small subset. Yeah, the people that kept raiding for the last year will become better at raiding, no surprise here. This in no way affects the rest of the community however.

No, the raid community getting better has a pretty drastic impact on the rest of the community, by providing better theorycrafting.

You might not be a raider but you can still benefit from the optimal DPS/HPS guides that they create and the theoretical & analysis tools they produce.

This makes it way easier for ‘second wave’ players to enter the raiding community as other people have already laid the groundwork.

We’re seeing reports about Bastion of the Penitent being “too easy” only days after release. There are challenge motes to make it harder. Is this an ANet version of easy/hard mode for raids? If so, will the people demanding easy mode be satisfied?

IndigoSundown.5419:

We’re seeing reports about Bastion of the Penitent being “too easy” only days after release. There are challenge motes to make it harder. Is this an ANet version of easy/hard mode for raids? If so, will the people demanding easy mode be satisfied?

Not really. As it has been mentioned, they aren’t really all that easier, except for the upper tier of raiders. I don’t see any significant difference between Cairn and VG, for example, except for the fact that VG’s mechanics are far more clearly marked (while half of Cairn’s are plain invisible to me).

Astralporing.1957:

IndigoSundown.5419:

We’re seeing reports about Bastion of the Penitent being “too easy” only days after release. There are challenge motes to make it harder. Is this an ANet version of easy/hard mode for raids? If so, will the people demanding easy mode be satisfied?

Not really. As it has been mentioned, they aren’t really all that easier, except for the upper tier of raiders. I don’t see any significant difference between Cairn and VG, for example, except for the fact that VG’s mechanics are far more clearly marked (while half of Cairn’s are plain invisible to me).

There is no easy mode needed.

IndigoSundown.5419:

We’re seeing reports about Bastion of the Penitent being “too easy” only days after release. There are challenge motes to make it harder. Is this an ANet version of easy/hard mode for raids? If so, will the people demanding easy mode be satisfied?

The new Raid is easy for those who were farming Matthias already. For players who haven’t even killed VG yet I doubt the new Raid is “easier”. People need to get into perspective when talking about how easy the new Raid is.

Miellyn.6847:

Astralporing.1957:

IndigoSundown.5419:

We’re seeing reports about Bastion of the Penitent being “too easy” only days after release. There are challenge motes to make it harder. Is this an ANet version of easy/hard mode for raids? If so, will the people demanding easy mode be satisfied?

Not really. As it has been mentioned, they aren’t really all that easier, except for the upper tier of raiders. I don’t see any significant difference between Cairn and VG, for example, except for the fact that VG’s mechanics are far more clearly marked (while half of Cairn’s are plain invisible to me).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWDvHazI8G4

There is no easy mode needed.

Are there any mechanics just missing when you’re not in melee, and not in a bigger group? Because that fight sure as kitten wasn’t as easy as this (not that i’d ever call 4 hours without making a single mistake “easy mode”).
(haven’t seen any description of the first two bosses anywhere yet, so our group can depend only on what we see and experience. Maybe knowing the mechanics well would indeed make it much easier, but so far it wasn’t the case)

Astralporing.1957:

Miellyn.6847:

Astralporing.1957:

IndigoSundown.5419:

We’re seeing reports about Bastion of the Penitent being “too easy” only days after release. There are challenge motes to make it harder. Is this an ANet version of easy/hard mode for raids? If so, will the people demanding easy mode be satisfied?

Not really. As it has been mentioned, they aren’t really all that easier, except for the upper tier of raiders. I don’t see any significant difference between Cairn and VG, for example, except for the fact that VG’s mechanics are far more clearly marked (while half of Cairn’s are plain invisible to me).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWDvHazI8G4

There is no easy mode needed.

Are there any mechanics just missing when you’re not in melee, and not in a bigger group? Because that fight sure as kitten wasn’t as easy as this.
(haven’t seen any description of the first two bosses anywhere yet, so our group can depend only on what we see and experience. Maybe knowing the mechanics well would indeed make it much easier, but so far it wasn’t the case)

Up to three people get the red circle, but thats easily managable with 2 healers.
The player who is farthest away from the boss has aggro, every second hit is the projectile wave, the tank will be hit with the second from right projectile, so don’t stand directly on the opposite side but a bit more right. If everyone is in melee range you need to destroy them with Swirling Winds or similiar skills, reflect is bad as they still count as enemy projectiles, you can’t dodge them proberly in melee.
The teleport thingies only appear in melee range and can mess with the aggro or red circles if you have designated players to get them, as they hit the farthes away player without the debuff.

TL:DR
Three people with red circle, Teleport thingies in melee range. Rest remains the same.

Astralporing.1957:

NikeEU.7690:

So we just have a different perspective on where to draw the line for “sorry you aren’t skilled enough.” I think the current raids are easy enough already, you don’t.

Pretty much this. Though i also think you may be simply unaware how high the current bar is (as you see it only in relation to yourself and your friends).

To be fair, I see “casual non raiders” who set records in adventures or jumping puzzles who have incredible micro skills that I definitely don’t have.

The difference between hardcore raiders isn’t mechanical skill or class knowledge it’s simply a willingness an ability to commit time and effort. Additionally there is a social component unless you are 100% pugging and a lot of people in video games are so socially maladjusted tgat they can’t handle being on TeamSpeak with other people.

If “my friends” have any particular skill tgat others don’t it’s willingness to fail repeatedly and willingness to make friends outside their comfort zone. Neither of those really have much to do with the actual playing of video games. Which is why, incidentally, I usually say that most barriers to raiding are self imposed.

NikeEU.7690:

Astralporing.1957:

NikeEU.7690:

So we just have a different perspective on where to draw the line for “sorry you aren’t skilled enough.” I think the current raids are easy enough already, you don’t.

Pretty much this. Though i also think you may be simply unaware how high the current bar is (as you see it only in relation to yourself and your friends).

To be fair, I see “casual non raiders” who set records in adventures or jumping puzzles who have incredible micro skills that I definitely don’t have.

The difference between hardcore raiders isn’t mechanical skill or class knowledge it’s simply a willingness an ability to commit time and effort. Additionally there is a social component unless you are 100% pugging and a lot of people in video games are so socially maladjusted tgat they can’t handle being on TeamSpeak with other people.

If “my friends” have any particular skill tgat others don’t it’s willingness to fail repeatedly and willingness to make friends outside their comfort zone. Neither of those really have much to do with the actual playing of video games. Which is why, incidentally, I usually say that most barriers to raiding are self imposed.

Some people like me work odd shifts. I work Overnights in the US and my schedule changes from week to week, at least WoW can accommodate this with tiered raiding since I will never be able to be part of a static group.

Imagine how hard it must be for people that have personal obligations to spouses or kids?

Oldirtbeard.9834:

Some people like me work odd shifts. I work Overnights in the US and my schedule changes from week to week, at least WoW can accommodate this with tiered raiding since I will never be able to be part of a static group.

Imagine how hard it must be for people that have personal obligations to spouses or kids?

Because you have chosen a certain job the game you are playing has to adjust its preferences? Also, because another game with far more player has these?

That’s the adult life, dude. Sometimes it sucks hard but you have to deal with and get over it.

Vinceman.4572:

Oldirtbeard.9834:

Some people like me work odd shifts. I work Overnights in the US and my schedule changes from week to week, at least WoW can accommodate this with tiered raiding since I will never be able to be part of a static group.

Imagine how hard it must be for people that have personal obligations to spouses or kids?

Because you have chosen a certain job the game you are playing has to adjust its preferences? Also, because another game with far more player has these?

That’s the adult life, dude. Sometimes it sucks hard but you have to deal with and get over it.

And sometimes, as an adult, you choose to fight for change instead of sitting on your laurels and dealing with or getting over it, especially when you are talking about a consumer product you voluntarily choose to support financially.

Blaeys.3102:

And sometimes, as an adult, you choose to fight for change instead of sitting on your laurels and dealing with or getting over it, especially when you are talking about a consumer product you voluntarily choose to support financially.

What are we even talking about?
Of course you can fight for it, but we are talking about a video game here. Not really realistic and reasonable to expect that a video game company has solutions to your private situation and life choices as an adult.
For example: I can’t raid at reset on monday morning 9 o’clock here in EU because that is the usual working time for an employee. I chose my job opportunity for a living (+ I like it) so this comes first – gaming on the other hand is a hobby which is some steps below that. Something every grown adult should be aware of.

Vinceman.4572:

Blaeys.3102:

And sometimes, as an adult, you choose to fight for change instead of sitting on your laurels and dealing with or getting over it, especially when you are talking about a consumer product you voluntarily choose to support financially.

What are we even talking about?
Of course you can fight for it, but we are talking about a video game here. Not really realistic and reasonable to expect that a video game company has solutions to your private situation and life choices as an adult.
For example: I can’t raid at reset on monday morning 9 o’clock here in EU because that is the usual working time for an employee. I chose my job opportunity for a living (+ I like it) so this comes first – gaming on the other hand is a hobby which is some steps below that. Something every grown adult should be aware of.

Yes it is just a hobby – a pastime.

Which begs the question of why you care so much about what other people want out of the game. The idea that people should just suck it up and get over it because it isn’t as important as their career is a little silly. Using your own logic, you shouldn’t care what they are saying on a video game forum to begin with.

Blaeys.3102:

Which begs the question of why you care so much about what other people want out of the game.

It only makes sense to care about what other people want, if what they want can hurt your own enjoyment of the game.

Blaeys.3102:

Yes it is just a hobby – a pastime.

Which begs the question of why you care so much about what other people want out of the game. The idea that people should just suck it up and get over it because it isn’t as important as their career is a little silly. Using your own logic, you shouldn’t care what they are saying on a video game forum to begin with.

No, my statement is just like it is a game, literally a game. And you can’t have the expectation that a game caters to your lifestyle or your habits. Of course you can change the game to one that fits perfectly to you and you can always wish several changes but wanting to change the game only because your personal life schedule doesn’t fit or wanting these changes to be a must is a little bit overconfident, don’t you think?

Oldirtbeard.9834:

NikeEU.7690:

Astralporing.1957:

NikeEU.7690:

So we just have a different perspective on where to draw the line for “sorry you aren’t skilled enough.” I think the current raids are easy enough already, you don’t.

Pretty much this. Though i also think you may be simply unaware how high the current bar is (as you see it only in relation to yourself and your friends).

To be fair, I see “casual non raiders” who set records in adventures or jumping puzzles who have incredible micro skills that I definitely don’t have.

The difference between hardcore raiders isn’t mechanical skill or class knowledge it’s simply a willingness an ability to commit time and effort. Additionally there is a social component unless you are 100% pugging and a lot of people in video games are so socially maladjusted tgat they can’t handle being on TeamSpeak with other people.

If “my friends” have any particular skill tgat others don’t it’s willingness to fail repeatedly and willingness to make friends outside their comfort zone. Neither of those really have much to do with the actual playing of video games. Which is why, incidentally, I usually say that most barriers to raiding are self imposed.

Some people like me work odd shifts. I work Overnights in the US and my schedule changes from week to week, at least WoW can accommodate this with tiered raiding since I will never be able to be part of a static group.

Imagine how hard it must be for people that have personal obligations to spouses or kids?

There’s people who play all over the world. When I first started playing GW2 I played almost exclusively WvW. I was in a guild with a very large number of members playing from Australia because I worked night shifts.

Vinceman.4572:

Blaeys.3102:

Yes it is just a hobby – a pastime.

Which begs the question of why you care so much about what other people want out of the game. The idea that people should just suck it up and get over it because it isn’t as important as their career is a little silly. Using your own logic, you shouldn’t care what they are saying on a video game forum to begin with.

No, my statement is just like it is a game, literally a game. And you can’t have the expectation that a game caters to your lifestyle or your habits. Of course you can change the game to one that fits perfectly to you and you can always wish several changes but wanting to change the game only because your personal life schedule doesn’t fit or wanting these changes to be a must is a little bit overconfident, don’t you think?

There is nothing wrong or “anti-adult” about advocating for change and defending a point of view on the forums.

That is partly what the forums are here for.

Blaeys.3102:

There is nothing wrong or “anti-adult” about advocating for change and defending a point of view on the forums.

That is partly what the forums are here for.

He used the phrase “how hard it must be”…

There is nothing hard in that situation. It’s…a…fricking…video game, and I think some people take that hobby too seriously and existential. That’s not very healthy or sounds grown up.

And to add it:
I wrote in other threads that I’m ok with a story mode. Without any rewards besides rares, greens and blues but the next demand are LIs, asc stuff to drop etc. etc…

Nike’s right, most barriers to raiding are self-imposed.

Whenever I see someone on these forums or reddit or whatever say why they don’t raid, it’s never about “I can’t”, it’s about “I don’t want to”.

“I don’t want to make friends and join a static group, I don’t want to join a guild, and pugs won’t take me without experience.”

They don’t want to join a guild or join/form a static raid group with friends. So they limit themselves to random pug groups and when those groups either fail miserably or won’t accept them, they give up.

“I don’t want to run the meta, I want to use my own build”

You get 6 character slots and then I think 1 more when you buy HoT. Would it REALLY kill you to make one character that uses a meta build? You could make a chrono or druid with a meta build and all but a few raiding guilds would love to have you, since chronos and druids are usually in short supply. You can then use the other 5/6 slots to make all the full Carrion eles and full Minstrel necros you want. Hell you don’t even need a separate character. You can easily get one set of berserker gear with scholar runes for your full Carrion ele and swap gear/traits when doing raids then swap back when you’re done. Getting a set of gear is very easy and swapping traits takes 20 seconds. Running a meta build doesn’t require you to sign a blood pact that from that point forwards you will only run meta builds no matter what you’re doing.

Problem is people are used to clearing content by putting no effort into their build or their gameplay, joining a random group from the LFG tool, going into the instance and eventually clearing it by bashing their faces into their keyboard until they manage a win. So as soon as they run into content that can’t be done like that, they just give up and start coming up with reasons why can’t do it. But at the end of the day every barrier to raiding is merely a self-imposed barrier.

Wasabi Kitty.8247:

Nike’s right, most barriers to raiding are self-imposed.

Social exclusion is still exclusion. In fact, it’s the worst kind, because it cannot be overcome by, say, farming a better set of gear.

Astralporing.1957:

Wasabi Kitty.8247:

Nike’s right, most barriers to raiding are self-imposed.

Social exclusion is still exclusion. In fact, it’s the worst kind, because it cannot be overcome by, say, farming a better set of gear.

But it’s still self-inflicted.

Anyone that still think raids are excluding people are delusional.
I just joined a pug for Cairn, as a full zealot DH, and we had 2 druid, engi and a necro.
We killed it wayyy past the enrage, like 20-25 mins.
A picture of the group set up:
http://imgur.com/a/hf4JO

I even didnt notice we was past enrage because it basically do nothing, just a new donut attack that do almost 0 damage.
So whats the excuse for not killing this boss?
And if you say we were all exp, there were some like the eng that had 0 LI

Astralporing.1957:

Wasabi Kitty.8247:

Nike’s right, most barriers to raiding are self-imposed.

Social exclusion is still exclusion. In fact, it’s the worst kind, because it cannot be overcome by, say, farming a better set of gear.

Sorry but complaining about social interaction in an MMORPG, which were always about social interaction, deserves no pity. It’s a shame that most developers try to reduce most MMORPGs to single player games. If you can do some or most parts solo thats fine, but if everything is basically a solo activity than it defeats the original idea of MMORPGs.

Thank god ArenaNet already said they don’t want automatic matchmaking in PvE.

Astralporing.1957:

Social exclusion is still exclusion.

So you are also an advocate of all the kids out there on the field/court that are not picked by the older ones to play with them?
Social exclusion is always present in life and it will always be. It’s something you have to learn to overcome and develop intelligent strategies (getting better in things, making friends that share same thoughts and many more) against it. The sooner you learn it (childhood) the healthier.
Sometimes I get the impression not only a few gamers weren’t socialized reasonably instead they were already parked in front of the screen by their parents in younger years – the worst you can do as a parent.