Guild Wars 2

Overall I’m really happy with how raids turned out in GW2, and I can’t wait for further raid wings to come out. Since negative criticism is usually the loudest, I thought I’d mention my mostly positive experiences, but also the parts that I think could use improvement.

Difficulty – There are a lot of people shouting for raids to be easier and more accessible, but also quite a few people who want more challenging encounters in future releases. Personally, I think the difficulty of the bosses right now is just about perfect. VG is the easiest of the three by a fair margin, allowing less experienced groups to get through as long as they have the mechanics down reasonably well. Gorseval, on the other hand requires a lot more DPS, and Sabetha demands group coordination and everyone to be alert about cannons, timed bombs, heavy bombs, etc.

However, I don’t think the people asking for more difficult fights are entirely baseless. There have been quite a few 7 and 8 man Gors/Sabetha attempts, and even a few 5 man kills of VG. While I don’t think that extreme level of coordination and optimization should be necessary for success, I think maybe it should be recognized through other rewards. That brings me to the achievements..

Achievements – A lot of these are kind of dumb. A lot of them simply reward you for doing what you’re supposed to do anyway: don’t get hit by X, don’t let Gorseval absorb spirits, don’t die. My favorite of the achievements is Last Cannon, and I think that should be the baseline for how boss achievements are handled. They should require you to do optional things that make the fight more difficult to complete, and require greater degrees of coordination among your raid squad.

The Eternal title isn’t rewarded in a very satisfactory way. Instead of something like beat all the bosses with no one dying, maybe beat all the bosses with a squad size of 9 or less? It’s not a title you really ever have to work for; you either get it because no one screwed up at the end, or you don’t. I Can Outrun a Ghost is another silly achievement; I don’t think I’ve ever seen someone get it without cheesing it, such as pre-patch diamond skin, or dying and rezoning when it almost finishes to get credit.

Rewards – I’m hoping this improves with future releases, but so far the rewards for doing raids haven’t been that great. I’m not a hardcore raider, I only have 21 insights, but so far the only rewards out of the ordinary that I’ve gotten are 5 minis, and a single ascended chest armor. I don’t know if I’m just unlucky, but these drop rates are really low, and they’re stuck on a weekly lockout. You also only get 4g per kill (which will eventually be lowered to 2), which seems pretty small; if you’re still learning the fights, this money might not even cover your food/utility expenses.

Magnetite Shards are also earned too slow to feel rewarding. You get 100 at most per week, which means if you want an ascended 2 hander, you’re looking at 5 weeks of hitting the cap. A full set of ascended armor (which I realize shouldn’t be too easy to get, but come on), would take 13 weeks of always hitting the cap. From the news article on raid rewards, it sounded like the shards were supposed to be a backup in case you get unlucky, but 3 months after Spirit Vale, I have to rely on these to get any worthwhile gear. And on top of how long they take to get, you have to pay a pretty sizable chunk of money! Not only that, but please add the new ascended trinkets to the raid vendor; there is no other way to get these besides random drops.

LFG – This has been mentioned a million times before, but raids really need an LFG channel. Not just for raiders, but for the sake of everyone who doesn’t want to see a million LFRs when they’re trying to do Triple Trouble or something. It doesn’t even need to accommodate squads yet, there should at least be a separate section dedicating to raiding.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on raids so far. I really do enjoy them, but I think they have the potential to be better than they currently are. Thanks so much to the raid team for bringing these to GW2.

It’s not that we already have dozens of such threads in this forum. Nope, better open a new one. ^^

I agree with what you wrote about the difficulty level, but not really about the achievements and reewards.

I actually think the achievements were well done with the exception of The Eternal. It’s true that some of the achievements are really easy and are “things you would do anyway”, but I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. If you look at the achievements anywhere in the game some are easy and some are difficult, and the easy ones just exist so that sometimes you will get one and think “oh cool” and feel like you are making progress on your account. I feel like the distribution of achievement difficulties was fair, with the exception that The Eternal should have been more difficult. It was clearly set up to be the “I have mastered the raid” achievement, but it isn’t even that hard to get on accident. On the other hand I actually think that the don’t-get-crippled achievement was a pretty cool one, or at least would have been if it was programmed better and you couldn’t get it by exploiting. Before we knew about how to cheese it, everyone would try their best not to get crippled every time, and we all got really close on a few occasions. At least one person in my guild got it legit. Maybe the difficulty level was a bit too high, but it was a really fun thing to go for it every time after killing VG.

As far as the rewards go, I think they’re fine. You can say that the value of 2H ascended weapons is bad, but those are literally the worst value you can get for the shards. On the flip side, the value for helm/shoulders/gloves/boots is super good and leggings is decent, and even if you are unlucky you can use the magnetite to get some ascended gear and use gold to buy the rest. I would say that if you clear every week you will probably average the equivalent of a full ascended armor set about every 2 months with magnetite + drops, which isn’t that ridiculous. Combining that with occasional fractal drops and your hard earned gold you can make ascended gear at a pretty decent rate now.

I would agree about the trinkets though, they should at least be purchasable for 600 shards from the vendor like the other boss-specific items are. As much as I like the idea of certain items being available only as a rng raid drop, it is very counter to one of my favorite things about both gw1 and gw2, which is the idea that ridiculous grinding and rng shouldn’t be required for a significant functional item upgrade. And for pretty much every condi class, getting viper’s ascended trinkets is definitely a substantial upgrade. I wouldn’t be surprised if some method to obtain new stat combos on trinkets was added in the next big update, even if the method to obtain them isn’t through raids.

Well, now that I think about it, the raid rewards aren’t that bad strictly from the perspective of the amount of time you put in. A lot of guilds have gotten to the point where they can easily clear Spirit Vale in a night (or even under an hour), and then the issue becomes not being able to dedicate any more time to raiding. Hopefully with future releases that will be ameliorated, with more raid bosses being available.

I really want to buy one of the new skins, but I’m afraid it’ll drop from a boss right after I buy it -_-

The difficulty seems fine to me. Takes some time to master but hardly impossible to complete with a proper party.
An option would be to add different difficulty levels – something like this:
Easy mode
Normal mode (current difficulty)
Hard mode

Not much of an achievement guy myself. The only ones even remotely interesting are the ones that make the raid harder or the handicaps people put on themselves to set records.

The rewards seem fine once you get to the point where you do the entire thing in an hour or less. Though, there are two small issues I have with them:
1. The weekly system (could have them reset every three days or so if daily is a bit too much)
2. Raid trinkets should be avaible alongside the armor and weapons

1) The difficulty i think is just fine too. Harder and now too much ppl wouldn’t be able to complete it. Easier and it would become a joke. I hope they go for the same thing on the 2nd wing. The first boss should be a little bit harder than VG, but not by much so it leave a boss of the 2nd wing for pugs and less skilled players, while the other 2 bosses should about equal in term of difficult to sabetha and gorseval (Maybe a little bit harder, but not much). Ideally, I would prefer that all bosses have a easy, normal and hard mode so that everybody have a better time in raid, but well.

2) I agree with the achievement part. Ok, there will always be some easy achievement that you do simply by completing the raid, but if they could step up their game for the next wing, that would be awesome. Thing like the last canon, or an achivement for no updraft gorseval, etc. For me the eternal should have been doing the 3 bosses back to back in the same instance with no one downing. That would title would have been worth is. Or like you said, doing all 3 bosses with like 7-8 peoples (9 is a bit too easy if you ask me).

3) I don’t believe that the reward is bad for the raid. What is the reward for like 1 hour run. 12 gold for the 3 bosses, 4-5 gold for in-between events and about 50 shards. If you accumulate the shards to buy an infusion and sold it, you gonna need 20 hours to get it and get around 440 gold in return. 440 / 20 = 22 gold per hour. 16 gold + 22 gold = 38 gold per hour. And that’s not counting any drop at all. That’s harder to quantify. The problem is that not much people got enough shard to buy a ghostly infusion so far so for most people the reward they see is only 16 gold per hour, which isn’t that good if you compare to other gold method witch are usually at 20+ gold per hour and doesn’t have a weekly limit like raid.

That said, if currently the reward is good, it won’t stay that way. More and more people get double, triple, etc of the same mini. The price of Ghostly infusion will continue to drop as more people reach 1000 shards. The gold per boss will drop in half. Over time the reward for the first raid will drop more and more. Not only that, the biggest impact will be on the reward people get strait away (gold per boss and mini duplicate), so even if the reward drop to 25 gold per hour after the new wing appear (which is not a bad reward per hour) people will see mostly that they get 10 gold per hour from the raid itself as the shard give them a reward on the longer term.

And the fact that the biggest chunk of the reward come from Ghostly infusion is not a good thing to begin with. There is other reward that people would want to buy with shard. In conclusion, the reward for raid is currently good, but too much emphasis is put on buying ghostly infusion. And the second problem is that the reward will drop over time significantly.

Crystal Reid.2481:

On Rewards
…

Any plans on adding all the ascended trinkets to the vendor? Right now those are the only rings/amulets with stats like assassin, viper, etc

Asuaka.1528:

Crystal Reid.2481:

On Rewards
…

Any plans on adding all the ascended trinkets to the vendor? Right now those are the only rings/amulets with stats like assassin, viper, etc

You get assassin from the reward chest from getting all dungeon armor/weapon skins. So… Hope you like PVP

Leezy.4567:

Asuaka.1528:

Crystal Reid.2481:

On Rewards
…

Any plans on adding all the ascended trinkets to the vendor? Right now those are the only rings/amulets with stats like assassin, viper, etc

You get assassin from the reward chest from getting all dungeon armor/weapon skins. So… Hope you like PVP

Those are only earrings. Rings and amulets are random drops from the raid and the only way to get those stats at the moment.

Will just give a couple suggestions:

- While the LFG can’t support squads because of whichever reasons, give us a Raid tab and while we’re at it, tabs for Verdant Brink, Auric Basin, Tangled Depths and Dragon’s Stand. Open World Content has never been more flooded.

- Really looking forward to Reflection and Stability being used for fights. Also adding jumping puzzles to circumvent mechanics (as intended) would be a great addition.

- Taking the feedback from Spirit Vale and adding Adrenal Mushroom and Ley Rifts before each boss, so we don’t have to worry about it later.

Really eager for Salvation Pass!

Crystal Reid.2481:

On Difficulty
With Salvation Pass you should see comparable difficulty with the bosses to Spirit Vale. Things like No Updraft Gorseval weren’t really possible the first week when players learned the encounter. We definitely don’t want to make the encounters so challenging that things like that are never possible since all it does is make raids less accessible to others. It’s fun to be able to master them and get better and do things like this.

On Achievements
There aren’t any “avoid getting hit by X and then kill the boss” style achievements in Salvation Pass. They are a lot more involved and will change up how you approach the encounter.

On Rewards
Andy jumped in here somewhere a few weeks back (I can’t find the original post) but he hinted that duplicate minis are going to have value with the second raid release so make sure you hold on to them.

Other than that, we’re making improvements to show ascended gear is awarded. You’ll have a lot more choice instead of getting something you can’t use.

On LFG
We’re not happy with the state of this either. Colin actually mentioned some stuff about this on Reddit.

Love the short term problem solving – wish it was easier for us to to do a quick short term fix. (sadly nothing with LFG is easy or quick)

I did want to quickly point out the team is aware of the recent discussions around things that aren’t working (or missing) from LFG and have it included in the list of “resolving outstanding issues” that is our goal for the spring update in April.

Not entirely sure what will actually make it yet LFG wise since it’s all in development – we’ll give more details once we’re sure.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/462xs8/make_our_own_raid_lfg_category_by_taking_over_pvp/d02aq2l

Sigh your still not giving out the most important info yet…….? Release date??!!!

joeytan.3865:

Crystal Reid.2481:

On Difficulty
With Salvation Pass you should see comparable difficulty with the bosses to Spirit Vale. Things like No Updraft Gorseval weren’t really possible the first week when players learned the encounter. We definitely don’t want to make the encounters so challenging that things like that are never possible since all it does is make raids less accessible to others. It’s fun to be able to master them and get better and do things like this.

On Achievements
There aren’t any “avoid getting hit by X and then kill the boss” style achievements in Salvation Pass. They are a lot more involved and will change up how you approach the encounter.

On Rewards
Andy jumped in here somewhere a few weeks back (I can’t find the original post) but he hinted that duplicate minis are going to have value with the second raid release so make sure you hold on to them.

Other than that, we’re making improvements to show ascended gear is awarded. You’ll have a lot more choice instead of getting something you can’t use.

On LFG
We’re not happy with the state of this either. Colin actually mentioned some stuff about this on Reddit.

Love the short term problem solving – wish it was easier for us to to do a quick short term fix. (sadly nothing with LFG is easy or quick)

I did want to quickly point out the team is aware of the recent discussions around things that aren’t working (or missing) from LFG and have it included in the list of “resolving outstanding issues” that is our goal for the spring update in April.

Not entirely sure what will actually make it yet LFG wise since it’s all in development – we’ll give more details once we’re sure.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/462xs8/make_our_own_raid_lfg_category_by_taking_over_pvp/d02aq2l

Sigh your still not giving out the most important info yet…….? Release date??!!!

March (1-31) 2016 unless delayed.

joeytan.3865:

Sigh your still not giving out the most important info yet…….? Release date??!!!

26 of April. Remember this date.

I’d like to second the motion for the vipers/keepers stat accessories to be in the vendor – the fact that I’m using exotic trinkets because the only way to get ascended vipers is rare rng drop off a boss with a week lockout is kind of backwards from gw2’s normal design. (I don’t think BiS has ever been locked behind rng so I’m assuming this is an oversight.)

Vissarion.6509:

joeytan.3865:

Sigh your still not giving out the most important info yet…….? Release date??!!!

26 of April. Remember this date.

Pretty sure that’s the second quarterly patch date. Or am I wrong?

Thanks for the update Crystal! Can’t wait to see Salvation Pass.

The release date hasn’t been announced yet, but it’s apparently Q1. A preview of one of the bosses will be shown on Guild Chat today. Maybe we’ll also get the release date?

The biggest issue with raids is that there are still some professions that have little to no place in raids – at least as groups are first encountering them. Players who have spent the last three years focusing on mastering those professions are being left on the sidelines – even if they are really good players.

Every profession needs to be in generally the same place in terms of damage and group support. They can (should) fill different roles, but given the focus on enrage timers, they all need to be comparable in terms of at least damage. Currently a few are not – and that is making raids exclusive not because they are challenging, but rather because they favor a tiny group of professions to the (at least when you are learning the fights) exclusion of others.

If they would fix that issue (which unfortunately, would probably require splitting PVE and PVP abilities/numbers, which Im not sure they are willing to do), raids would be in a much better place.

Blaeys.3102:

The biggest issue with raids is that there are still some professions that have little to no place in raids – at least as groups are first encountering them. Players who have spent the last three years focusing on mastering those professions are being left on the sidelines – even if they are really good players.

Every profession needs to be in generally the same place in terms of damage and group support. They can (should) fill different roles, but given the focus on enrage timers, they all need to be comparable in terms of at least damage. Currently a few are not – and that is making raids exclusive not because they are challenging, but rather because they favor a tiny group of professions to the (at least when you are learning the fights) exclusion of others.

If they would fix that issue (which unfortunately, would probably require splitting PVE and PVP abilities/numbers, which Im not sure they are willing to do), raids would be in a much better place.

Not really. Guardian and Thief used to be the 2 profession that didn’t had a place in raid, but that’s no longer the place. Herald dropped in popularity, but are still very present. True enough Condi Warrior is not in a good place, but PS Warrior is. Right now, all profession have 1 good build for raid. It could be improve for sure. Ideally more profession could have decent condi and direct damage dps build and more possibility for healer, but no player need to chance profession for raids unless you are in a group that already too many of the same profession.

Crystal Reid.2481:

On Difficulty
….We definitely don’t want to make the encounters so challenging that things like that are never possible since all it does is make raids less accessible to others. …..

this was my fav part. very funny, a wink afterwards would have sealed it. 7/10

Jaxom.7310:

Crystal Reid.2481:

On Difficulty
….We definitely don’t want to make the encounters so challenging that things like that are never possible since all it does is make raids less accessible to others. …..

this was my fav part. very funny, a wink afterwards would have sealed it. 7/10

It already is less accessible to others, ascended armor is overpriced and people have stupid requirements to enter a group, like legendary insights or eternal title (which in my oppinion should change, the name is far too edgy and “final” for something like that).

Crystal Reid.2481:

On Difficulty
With Salvation Pass you should see comparable difficulty with the bosses to Spirit Vale. Things like No Updraft Gorseval weren’t really possible the first week when players learned the encounter. We definitely don’t want to make the encounters so challenging that things like that are never possible since all it does is make raids less accessible to others. It’s fun to be able to master them and get better and do things like this.

I actually think this is the way it should be. The encounters themselves aren’t easy for most people, weren’t at release and still aren’t. Yet at the same time, good squads can push for things like the no updraft challenge for bonus bragging rights and pushing themselves further. If such things could get achievements liked to them, maybe with a title or a mini to boot, then it would be perfect imo.

@Amineo: Pugs making up “stupid” requirements doesn’t make it less accessible when you could always start your own raid squad; with pugs, friends, your guild or even pugs who end up being friends or even your guild. Ascended trinkets are reasonably cheap to get and the most important part; and I’m pretty sure that, if you’re looking to do raids, you’re at the point where you have at least a few or can afford a few ascended weapons.

Amineo.8951:

It already is less accessible to others, ascended armor is overpriced and people have stupid requirements to enter a group, like legendary insights or eternal title (which in my oppinion should change, the name is far too edgy and “final” for something like that).

Those are probably the same people that were post silly things like “Frac 50 | Metazerk | Ping gear | 15k+ AP | Down = kick” type of posts.

Insights can be chat coded, Eternal title and gear can be bought. So none of that stuff really qualifies your skill. With raid pugging it’s trial by fire. Guy says he can do it and has decent gear (weapons and trinkets suffice)? Throw him on Green or Cannon duty and see if he wipes at the first attempt.

The pug groups I’ve had most success with are those that judge you based on your performance on the field rather than blast you with 20 q’s before you even enter the instance.

savacli.8172:

Insights can be chat coded, Eternal title and gear can be bought. So none of that stuff really qualifies your skill. With raid pugging it’s trial by fire. Guy says he can do it and has decent gear (weapons and trinkets suffice)? Throw him on Green or Cannon duty and see if he wipes at the first attempt.

The pug groups I’ve had most success with are those that judge you based on your performance on the field rather than blast you with 20 q’s before you even enter the instance.

This right here. We grabbed four pugs for a Gorse kill the other night. One came in and started pinging his gear. We told him not to worry about it. All we cared is that they had some experience on the fight. We got him down in one go. Sabetha ended up a different story since 4 people had never seen the fight and 1 had only seen it once.

AndrewMcLeod.3857:

Asuaka.1528:

Crystal Reid.2481:

On Rewards
…

Any plans on adding all the ascended trinkets to the vendor? Right now those are the only rings/amulets with stats like assassin, viper, etc

Yes, I’ve got a number of improvements/fixes for Spirit Vale that will be coming out with the next raid wing, and this is one of them. You’ll also be able to infuse the rings and backpack, and extra raid miniatures will no longer clutter up your bags.

What will happen with extra raid miniatures? Mystic forgeable? Salvageable for shards?

AndrewMcLeod.3857:

Asuaka.1528:

Crystal Reid.2481:

On Rewards
…

Any plans on adding all the ascended trinkets to the vendor? Right now those are the only rings/amulets with stats like assassin, viper, etc

Yes, I’ve got a number of improvements/fixes for Spirit Vale that will be coming out with the next raid wing, and this is one of them. You’ll also be able to infuse the rings and backpack, and extra raid miniatures will no longer clutter up your bags.

It’s nice that raid rewards are being improved, what about wvw? Wouldn’t it be nice to players if ascended were available for badges of honor? How great would players feel if those mistforged weapons were available after close to 2 years? WvW minis? WvW aura infusions?

Swagger.1459:

AndrewMcLeod.3857:

Asuaka.1528:

Crystal Reid.2481:

On Rewards
…

Any plans on adding all the ascended trinkets to the vendor? Right now those are the only rings/amulets with stats like assassin, viper, etc

Yes, I’ve got a number of improvements/fixes for Spirit Vale that will be coming out with the next raid wing, and this is one of them. You’ll also be able to infuse the rings and backpack, and extra raid miniatures will no longer clutter up your bags.

It’s nice that raid rewards are being improved, what about wvw? Wouldn’t it be nice to players if ascended were available for badges of honor? How great would players feel if those mistforged weapons were available after close to 2 years? WvW minis? WvW aura infusions?

Yeah sure, asking the raid developers about wvw seems like a good way to get answer.

LegACy.1296:

Swagger.1459:

AndrewMcLeod.3857:

Asuaka.1528:

Crystal Reid.2481:

On Rewards
…

Any plans on adding all the ascended trinkets to the vendor? Right now those are the only rings/amulets with stats like assassin, viper, etc

Yes, I’ve got a number of improvements/fixes for Spirit Vale that will be coming out with the next raid wing, and this is one of them. You’ll also be able to infuse the rings and backpack, and extra raid miniatures will no longer clutter up your bags.

It’s nice that raid rewards are being improved, what about wvw? Wouldn’t it be nice to players if ascended were available for badges of honor? How great would players feel if those mistforged weapons were available after close to 2 years? WvW minis? WvW aura infusions?

Yeah sure, asking the raid developers about wvw seems like a good way to get answer.

Developers serve many roles and functions, and have direct access to people working on all parts of the game.

AndrewMcLeod.3857:

Asuaka.1528:

Crystal Reid.2481:

On Rewards
…

Any plans on adding all the ascended trinkets to the vendor? Right now those are the only rings/amulets with stats like assassin, viper, etc

Yes, I’ve got a number of improvements/fixes for Spirit Vale that will be coming out with the next raid wing, and this is one of them. You’ll also be able to infuse the rings and backpack, and extra raid miniatures will no longer clutter up your bags.

Are there any plans on making these best in slot viper ascended accessories available outside of raids?

For condi players who enjoy fractals and wvw it doesn’t seem right to force them into raids which have been stated to not be for everyone to get their best in slot gear.

I kind of gave up on raids after spending hours and hours and hours trying to beat the first boss. It always came down to mechanics and not enough DPS. Did not enjoy it. And it really shouldn’t be called a “raid”. It should be called an “Elite Boss Fight.” There’s no raid involved.

Too much meta(which I thought ANeT was trying to do away with – especially when one of them said “goodbye, zerker” or something to that effect) and exact class combinations – not to mention the alienation of an entire class, unless they are running Druid only. That is just bull kitten. ANeT locked ranger into one specific build because they won’t up the dps ability like they did so many other classes. Everyone else got more attack and ranger, already lacking dps, got Druid. So it’s heal or go home.

And of course the creation of a new in game business of selling access to beating a boss. Thanks, ANeT. Not looking forward to anymore “raids.”

Oh, and locking Legendary Armor behind only one aspect of the game is bull kitten as well.

Heibi.4251:

I kind of gave up on raids after spending hours and hours and hours trying to beat the first boss. It always came down to mechanics and not enough DPS. Did not enjoy it. And it really shouldn’t be called a “raid”. It should be called an “Elite Boss Fight.” There’s no raid involved.

Too much meta(which I thought ANeT was trying to do away with – especially when one of them said “goodbye, zerker” or something to that effect) and exact class combinations – not to mention the alienation of an entire class, unless they are running Druid only. That is just bull kitten. ANeT locked ranger into one specific build because they won’t up the dps ability like they did so many other classes. Everyone else got more attack and ranger, already lacking dps, got Druid. So it’s heal or go home.

And of course the creation of a new in game business of selling access to beating a boss. Thanks, ANeT. Not looking forward to anymore “raids.”

Oh, and locking Legendary Armor behind only one aspect of the game is bull kitten as well.

• You’re against adapting your build to what is most useful for the content, which is one of the hallmarks of challenging group content.
• You’re against picking up another class to fill another role, which further solidifies that you lack the adaptability to succeed in this content.
• You’re against “the meta”—of which there will always be one—and are singling Berserker stats out as a problem when there is more gear stat and role diversity in raids than anywhere else in PvE.

I’m sorry, but I truthfully think you’re setting yourself up for disaster. This kind of content, by design, isn’t for everyone, and it’s very much not a surprise to me that you have such vitriol to spew at it given your mindset. Hopefully you can enjoy the game elsewhere, as the devs won’t—and certainly shouldn’t—change the content to appeal more to you.

Heibi.4251:

I kind of gave up on raids after spending hours and hours and hours trying to beat the first boss. It always came down to mechanics and not enough DPS. Did not enjoy it. And it really shouldn’t be called a “raid”. It should be called an “Elite Boss Fight.” There’s no raid involved.

Too much meta(which I thought ANeT was trying to do away with – especially when one of them said “goodbye, zerker” or something to that effect) and exact class combinations – not to mention the alienation of an entire class, unless they are running Druid only. That is just bull kitten. ANeT locked ranger into one specific build because they won’t up the dps ability like they did so many other classes. Everyone else got more attack and ranger, already lacking dps, got Druid. So it’s heal or go home.

And of course the creation of a new in game business of selling access to beating a boss. Thanks, ANeT. Not looking forward to anymore “raids.”

Oh, and locking Legendary Armor behind only one aspect of the game is bull kitten as well.

What I’m reading is “I want to play my special snowflake nomads tank support build while ignoring mechanics and still get through”.

There’s tons of different class comps that work in raids. There are some core classes you want to have in order to cover basic things, yes; but even then you can do some swaps and some interesting choices. What however is required that you actually support your team in an actual meaningful way (dps/buffs etc.)

You’re clearly not willing to step up your game, adapt and/or learn the mechanics, so raids aren’t meant for you in the first place.

@Rising Dusk and Novaan:
You apparently didn’t understand my post since you went right to the LTP stance. My advice is learn to read. This raid should be based on skill not elite snobbery so only a select few can brag and tell others to learn to play.

I noticed Novaan said there are many class comps but fails to mention that Rangers are booted immediately. Part of the reason I mentioned how screwed up it was that ranger can ONLY be a healer druid now that the “meta” is set. Rangers need no apply because ANeT saw to it that we don’t have the DPS needed thanks to the way the raid is set up.

I adjusted my build for the raids, I just wasn’t a healer I played a condi druid/ranger. Utilized several of the druid utility skills to aid in this(knocking away energy balls and such). I have all ascended and even made an entire set of new ascended(Vipers) along with trinkets to get a build that would help win. Gets expensive, but I bit the bullet and made or purchased everything necessary. I was almost always where I was supposed to be when needed(green circle duty and on the condi sub-boss I was assigned to.) Occasional hick-ups happen. I know the mechanics very well. My game play is very high – you just don’t know anything about me or other players who honestly try their best to succeed. Instead, you make assumptions and look down you nose at players who are trying to point out the flaws in the “raid’s” design. Not to mention the devs lack of vision when creating an elite that places a class into a niche that other classes are not forced to do. A zerker warrior can still be a zerker warrior and not have to adjust his play type. A tank and still be a tank and not adjust his play style. But you suggest, no DEMAND, that a ranger MUST play a druid healer to play in your elitist reindeer games.

Sorry, you miss the point and intent of my post.

note: I’ve never played anything with Nomad settings. I’m also one of the top 1000 players in the game.

I agree that people should have to strategically alter their build, gear and playstyle to beat raids. My group has been doing exactly that.

To Heibi’s point however, there is a huge disparity between specific professions in terms of potential damage output – and that does hurt the experience and create a lot of the nastiness we are seeing in game.

Yes, rangers can spec to druid and play competitively, but realistically they are limited to one per raid. That is a flawed perspective for a couple of reasons. First, the raids are designed around minimal damage requirements. This means that any profession that is significantly behind all of the others in terms of damage or group damage buffing is hobbled and will never have the same opportunities as others. People who played those professions for 3+ years or enjoy playing them are SOL. Second, it move the dynamic toward “bring the profession even if it means leaving players out.”

People who know how to play their professions well should have a realistic (and competitive) place on raid teams. Given the current direction of fight design, that means competitive damage capabilities. We currently have a huge gap between, for example, warriors and rangers.

If they are committed to using enrage timers to define difficulty, then they need to make sure every player capable of maximizing damage on their profession of choice should have a realistic role in a raid group. It isn’t rocket science. Furthermore, they need to do this even if it means (and it will) separating coefficients between pve and pvp.

That said, I do believe the raid fights are well designed – they just need to even the playing field so we can bring those players who are ready for raids rather than having to worry about whether or not they are on a dud profession.

@blaeys, People have been running double ranger/druid there is nothing thats bad about that also the difference between ranger and warrior is way way way smaller than between warrior and ele

perry.9645:

@blaeys, People have been running double ranger/druid there is nothing thats bad about that also the difference between ranger and warrior is way way way smaller than between warrior and ele

My point is that, yes, some professions will always do more damage than others, but currently, those differences are way too disparate, which leads to exclusionary behavior.

A (arguably, THE) primary component of raiding is “kill fast.” Players proficient at professions that cannot “kill fast” are at a severe disadvantage and, thus, have fewer opportunities to raid. From a raid leader perspective, this means potentially leaving people (friends) out, even if they are really good at playing their profession.

Blaeys.3102:

perry.9645:

@blaeys, People have been running double ranger/druid there is nothing thats bad about that also the difference between ranger and warrior is way way way smaller than between warrior and ele

My point is that, yes, some professions will always do more damage than others, but currently, those differences are way too disparate, which leads to exclusionary behavior.

A (arguably, THE) primary component of raiding is “kill fast.” Players proficient at professions that cannot “kill fast” are at a severe disadvantage and, thus, have fewer opportunities to raid. From a raid leader perspective, this means potentially leaving people (friends) out, even if they are really good at playing their profession.

The timers are so generous that no class is left out if played properly. There has been 10 guardian kills 10 necro kills and 10 tempest kills. Yes druid damage isnt high but the buffs they offer are well worth taking more than one also they aren’t forced to be healer, all encounters can be done without a dedicated healer. If you would go by the Kill Fast you would never take anything else than 2 mesmers for VG or 6 staff eles for gorse. People that want to go for the complete 100% optimal teamcomp while not wanting to set a speed record are just lacking mechanical skill to finish the encounter and want to compensate elsewhere.

Heibi.4251:

@Rising Dusk and Novaan:
You apparently didn’t understand my post since you went right to the LTP stance. My advice is learn to read. This raid should be based on skill not elite snobbery so only a select few can brag and tell others to learn to play.

I noticed Novaan said there are many class comps but fails to mention that Rangers are booted immediately. Part of the reason I mentioned how screwed up it was that ranger can ONLY be a healer druid now that the “meta” is set. Rangers need no apply because ANeT saw to it that we don’t have the DPS needed thanks to the way the raid is set up.

I adjusted my build for the raids, I just wasn’t a healer I played a condi druid/ranger. Utilized several of the druid utility skills to aid in this(knocking away energy balls and such). I have all ascended and even made an entire set of new ascended(Vipers) along with trinkets to get a build that would help win. Gets expensive, but I bit the bullet and made or purchased everything necessary. I was almost always where I was supposed to be when needed(green circle duty and on the condi sub-boss I was assigned to.) Occasional hick-ups happen. I know the mechanics very well. My game play is very high – you just don’t know anything about me or other players who honestly try their best to succeed. Instead, you make assumptions and look down you nose at players who are trying to point out the flaws in the “raid’s” design. Not to mention the devs lack of vision when creating an elite that places a class into a niche that other classes are not forced to do. A zerker warrior can still be a zerker warrior and not have to adjust his play type. A tank and still be a tank and not adjust his play style. But you suggest, no DEMAND, that a ranger MUST play a druid healer to play in your elitist reindeer games.

Sorry, you miss the point and intent of my post.

note: I’ve never played anything with Nomad settings. I’m also one of the top 1000 players in the game.

That’s not true. Raids are very much so about skill, you can clear them in a squad running full on exotics and there’s been boss kills with less than 10 people, which is proof enough that you do not need full ascended in order to get through; it merely helps, as it should be.

We never run full healer druids in our groups. They’re either Berserker or Viper’s setup; the heal they give out by default is enough and in the end it’s more about keeping GotL up; add the other kinds of support to that and you’re good. Condi Druid also has pretty reasonable dps.
Besides, almost every class is using their elite spec because it enhances the class much more than a third normal spec could; for the ranger it just so happens to be even more support.

What you mention here is not a flaw of raid design, it’s a flaw of player thinking. Don’t blame the raids for this, blame the people who think a ranger can only be a healing bot with no dps whatsoever and should camp staff/celestial 24/7 while running full zealot/cleric. Also, if a squad really needs a druid to heal them permanently just to keep them from dying, that’s usually a bad sign.

If you’re good at the raid that’s great, however your post simply made it sound different.

As for “some classes deal more damage than others and thus those with less dps are left out”; A good part of every raid squad consists of classes which don’t necessarily have the highest dps, but instead are there to boost everyone’s dps in whatever way they can.

Other than that it’s pretty much what perry said.

perry.9645:

Blaeys.3102:

perry.9645:

@blaeys, People have been running double ranger/druid there is nothing thats bad about that also the difference between ranger and warrior is way way way smaller than between warrior and ele

My point is that, yes, some professions will always do more damage than others, but currently, those differences are way too disparate, which leads to exclusionary behavior.

A (arguably, THE) primary component of raiding is “kill fast.” Players proficient at professions that cannot “kill fast” are at a severe disadvantage and, thus, have fewer opportunities to raid. From a raid leader perspective, this means potentially leaving people (friends) out, even if they are really good at playing their profession.

The timers are so generous that no class is left out if played properly. There has been 10 guardian kills 10 necro kills and 10 tempest kills. Yes druid damage isnt high but the buffs they offer are well worth taking more than one also they aren’t forced to be healer, all encounters can be done without a dedicated healer. If you would go by the Kill Fast you would never take anything else than 2 mesmers for VG or 6 staff eles for gorse. People that want to go for the complete 100% optimal teamcomp while not wanting to set a speed record are just lacking mechanical skill to finish the encounter and want to compensate elsewhere.

I beg to differ. RANGER is left out. The meta wont allow them and neither will the elitists. They are kicked immediately unless they run druid.

Heibi.4251:

perry.9645:

Blaeys.3102:

perry.9645:

@blaeys, People have been running double ranger/druid there is nothing thats bad about that also the difference between ranger and warrior is way way way smaller than between warrior and ele

My point is that, yes, some professions will always do more damage than others, but currently, those differences are way too disparate, which leads to exclusionary behavior.

A (arguably, THE) primary component of raiding is “kill fast.” Players proficient at professions that cannot “kill fast” are at a severe disadvantage and, thus, have fewer opportunities to raid. From a raid leader perspective, this means potentially leaving people (friends) out, even if they are really good at playing their profession.

The timers are so generous that no class is left out if played properly. There has been 10 guardian kills 10 necro kills and 10 tempest kills. Yes druid damage isnt high but the buffs they offer are well worth taking more than one also they aren’t forced to be healer, all encounters can be done without a dedicated healer. If you would go by the Kill Fast you would never take anything else than 2 mesmers for VG or 6 staff eles for gorse. People that want to go for the complete 100% optimal teamcomp while not wanting to set a speed record are just lacking mechanical skill to finish the encounter and want to compensate elsewhere.

I beg to differ. RANGER is left out. The meta wont allow them and neither will the elitists. They are kicked immediately unless they run druid.

So are Warriors/Revenants/Elementalists/Necros/Mesmers/Guardians/Thieves. Not being willing to take a traitline which offers various upgrades in what is considered the most difficult content is just silly.

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Heibi.4251:

perry.9645:

Blaeys.3102:

perry.9645:

@blaeys, People have been running double ranger/druid there is nothing thats bad about that also the difference between ranger and warrior is way way way smaller than between warrior and ele

My point is that, yes, some professions will always do more damage than others, but currently, those differences are way too disparate, which leads to exclusionary behavior.

A (arguably, THE) primary component of raiding is “kill fast.” Players proficient at professions that cannot “kill fast” are at a severe disadvantage and, thus, have fewer opportunities to raid. From a raid leader perspective, this means potentially leaving people (friends) out, even if they are really good at playing their profession.

The timers are so generous that no class is left out if played properly. There has been 10 guardian kills 10 necro kills and 10 tempest kills. Yes druid damage isnt high but the buffs they offer are well worth taking more than one also they aren’t forced to be healer, all encounters can be done without a dedicated healer. If you would go by the Kill Fast you would never take anything else than 2 mesmers for VG or 6 staff eles for gorse. People that want to go for the complete 100% optimal teamcomp while not wanting to set a speed record are just lacking mechanical skill to finish the encounter and want to compensate elsewhere.

I beg to differ. RANGER is left out. The meta wont allow them and neither will the elitists. They are kicked immediately unless they run druid.

So are Warriors/Revenants/Elementalists/Necros/Mesmers/Guardians/Thieves. Not being willing to take a traitline which offers various upgrades in what is considered the most difficult content is just silly.

Specifically RANGERS as an entire class. You can’t say the other classes are shunned entirely. Rangers can only join if they run Druid. The other classes don’t have to really change what they actually do – DAMAGE. The ranger MUST change and become a healer only class. Get off your elitist bandwagon and stop mincing words.

Heibi.4251:

I beg to differ. RANGER is left out. The meta wont allow them and neither will the elitists. They are kicked immediately unless they run druid.

Same goes for warrior not taking tactics or ele not taking air i dont see your point. Its like saying i cant play how i want cause people want me to bring the best spec i can bring, its a teamgame you wont get far with egoism.

Heibi.4251:

Specifically RANGERS as an entire class. You can’t say the other classes are shunned entirely. Rangers can only join if they run Druid. The other classes don’t have to really change what they actually do – DAMAGE. The ranger MUST change and become a healer only class. Get off your elitist bandwagon and stop mincing words.

Druid isnt a healer only class https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eg9foRX6Svg full zerker only switching to staff when extra heal is needed and that cant be supplied by just CA and glyphs

perry.9645:

Heibi.4251:

I beg to differ. RANGER is left out. The meta wont allow them and neither will the elitists. They are kicked immediately unless they run druid.

Same goes for warrior not taking tactics or ele not taking air i dont see your point. Its like saying i cant play how i want cause people want me to bring the best spec i can bring, its a teamgame you wont get far with egoism.

Making a minor change in the build is not what I’m talking about here. You obviously aren’t truly understanding what has been put before your eyes. A ranger could be maxed out and ready to do tons of damage but will be kicked unless he runs druid. A warrior doesn’t have to CHANGE his basic concept at all. Same goes for the other classes, they just do what they normally do with a few modifications and the really awesome elite classes that ANeT gave them – which made them vastly more powerful than before. Ranger got healing.

Heibi.4251:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Heibi.4251:

perry.9645:

Blaeys.3102:

perry.9645:

@blaeys, People have been running double ranger/druid there is nothing thats bad about that also the difference between ranger and warrior is way way way smaller than between warrior and ele

My point is that, yes, some professions will always do more damage than others, but currently, those differences are way too disparate, which leads to exclusionary behavior.

A (arguably, THE) primary component of raiding is “kill fast.” Players proficient at professions that cannot “kill fast” are at a severe disadvantage and, thus, have fewer opportunities to raid. From a raid leader perspective, this means potentially leaving people (friends) out, even if they are really good at playing their profession.

The timers are so generous that no class is left out if played properly. There has been 10 guardian kills 10 necro kills and 10 tempest kills. Yes druid damage isnt high but the buffs they offer are well worth taking more than one also they aren’t forced to be healer, all encounters can be done without a dedicated healer. If you would go by the Kill Fast you would never take anything else than 2 mesmers for VG or 6 staff eles for gorse. People that want to go for the complete 100% optimal teamcomp while not wanting to set a speed record are just lacking mechanical skill to finish the encounter and want to compensate elsewhere.

I beg to differ. RANGER is left out. The meta wont allow them and neither will the elitists. They are kicked immediately unless they run druid.

So are Warriors/Revenants/Elementalists/Necros/Mesmers/Guardians/Thieves. Not being willing to take a traitline which offers various upgrades in what is considered the most difficult content is just silly.

Specifically RANGERS as an entire class. You can’t say the other classes are shunned entirely. Rangers can only join if they run Druid. The other classes don’t have to really change what they actually do – DAMAGE. The ranger MUST change and become a healer only class. Get off your elitist bandwagon and stop mincing words.

I’m telling you again; Rangers do not have to take on a full healer role which does nothing but healing. If your squad demands that of you and can’t survive without you healing them up to 100% all the time then your squad is kitten. Simple as that. We run our Druids as Berserker/Viper and they heal to keep GotL on people up or to get them back to full when someone drops low on HP. Between those heals they deal damage like every other class. They usually don’t even run Staff, nor are they the ones who catch Sabetha’s Flak Shots. 15% bonus damage from GotL is simply nothing to laugh at, it just so happens that those come from healing people; which again, wouldn’t be the fault of the raid, but of the trait.

For the most part I wouldn’t take most classes if they run without their elite specs, just because so much is lost. That being said, I’ll agree that Ranger’s elite spec changes the playstyle more than many others do, yeah. But as I mentioned, it still doesn’t make you a dedicated healer and you should very well be able to combine dps and healing/support into some sort of rotation.

Oh and please stop throwing the term elitist around, it’s silly and not even applicable here.

//Ranger always was about the support. Spotter, Spirits… Those are the reasons you took a ranger, not his super amazing dps. Druid enhances your support further, GotL being one of the best things to be available. Obviously you’ll take it and try to keep the buff up WHILE doing damage; like every other class. Warrior is taken for his offensive utility too, it’s just more passive than Druid is.

ok i give up ranger is apparently a full healer even tho everybody i know plays berserker/viper and we clear the raid every week with that.

Heibi.4251:

Making a minor change in the build is not what I’m talking about here. You obviously aren’t truly understanding what has been put before your eyes. A ranger could be maxed out and ready to do tons of damage but will be kicked unless he runs druid. A warrior doesn’t have to CHANGE his basic concept at all. Same goes for the other classes, they just do what they normally do with a few modifications and the really awesome elite classes that ANeT gave them – which made them vastly more powerful than before. Ranger got healing.

Hope- and senseless

perry.9645:

ok i give up ranger is apparently a full healer even tho everybody i know plays berserker/viper and we clear the raid every week with that.

In the concept of the meta and standardized comps that person would normally be kicked. But if he usually runs with friends it doesn’t matter.

The ranger is expected by the vast majority to switch to Druid only – which means healer spec.

Vinceman.4572:

Heibi.4251:

.

Hope- and senseless

Pointless and idiotic post with no actual content.