Guild Wars 2

Finally someone talks some sense, thank you.

I agree, being casual has nothing whatsoever to do with raids. You can play 1 hour a week and still clear raids, do some research beforehand find a good group you trust and clear it. If you can’t that means you got to improve that’s all. Raids are meant to be hard and require abit more higher order gameplay, that doesn’t mean you can’t clear it if you are a casual (lack of gameplay time), unless casual to you means that you suck more than the average player than that can be fixed as OP stated just improve. Maybe for once try not to bring the content down to your lvl but meet the requirements of the content. ‘Elitism/better players’ are just people who decided to meet the requirements of the content they do.

I suspect the complaints are more about wanting access to L. Armor than about not getting to do the content. That’s not what everyone’s saying, but I’ve seen it enough, and am cynical enough to think that if it isn’t uppermost in peoples’ minds, it will be as raids mature.

Thank you for this op. Sick of this forum being littered with people complaining about “ascended only” and stuff like this. It’s been confirmed already that 10 coordinated people in full exotic can clear all 3 bosses. That’s why it’s called [guild] wars. +1’d

IndigoSundown.5419:

I suspect the complaints are more about wanting access to L. Armor than about not getting to do the content. That’s not what everyone’s saying, but I’ve seen it enough, and am cynical enough to think that if it isn’t uppermost in peoples’ minds, it will be as raids mature.

But that’s just the thing, they’re not EXCLUDED. Everyone has access to legendary armor, you just need to clear raid bosses in order to get it.

This same topic is covered in at least three other threads (with the exact same people making the exact same comments).

Bllade.1029:

[L]evel up alts that are more effective than others.

I find this to be not only a burden, but against the spirit of a role playing game. Many players choose their profession carefully based on the archetype they like to play (e.g., assassin in the shadows, holy defender, rampaging warrior, etc.), so telling them to reroll a much beloved character they’ve spent time and energy building just to play the new content is pretty excluding.

Thankfully some of the raid fights appear to be forgiving and many comps that some would call “unusual” have completed the first encounter at the very least. I’d rather Arena Net side on more leeway in composition, than essentially forcing people to reroll a character they’ve put so much effort into building, learning, and in some cases, role playing their entire GW 2 lifetime.

Blaeys.3102:

This same topic is covered in at least three other threads (with the exact same people making the exact same comments).

Believe it or not, it actually matters that the topic comes up frequently. Either way, I fully agree with the OP (who’s surprised?).

Bllade.1029:

IndigoSundown.5419:

I suspect the complaints are more about wanting access to L. Armor than about not getting to do the content. That’s not what everyone’s saying, but I’ve seen it enough, and am cynical enough to think that if it isn’t uppermost in peoples’ minds, it will be as raids mature.

But that’s just the thing, they’re not EXCLUDED. Everyone has access to legendary armor, you just need to clear raid bosses in order to get it.

That would also apply to anyone who just wants to do the content. The problem for them, and thus the complaints, is the same that we saw in the dungeon meta. People cba to form a group or join a guild. They expect to just drop into a PuG with whatever they want to bring and be welcomed with open arms. Well, the fancy of “raids and/or trinity will kill exclusion” is gone and they’re now facing the harsh reality that exclusion is going to be worse the harder the content is.

SirMoogie.9263:

Bllade.1029:

[L]evel up alts that are more effective than others.

I find this to be not only a burden, but against the spirit of a role playing game. Many players choose their profession carefully based on the archetype they like to play (e.g., assassin in the shadows, holy defender, rampaging warrior, etc.), so telling them to reroll a much beloved character they’ve spent time and energy building just to play the new content is pretty excluding.

Thankfully some of the raid fights appear to be forgiving and many comps that some would call “unusual” have completed the first encounter at the very least. I’d rather Arena Net side on more leeway in composition, than essentially forcing people to reroll a character they’ve put so much effort into building, learning, and in some cases, role playing their entire GW 2 lifetime.

No, that’s a lack of flexibility. If you refuse to only play one profession, that is not exclusion. That’s on you. Composition is as much knowledge based as the actual raid itself. That’s what’s so great about these raids, it checks how much you REALLY know about Guild Wars 2. Not just the raid itself.

Also, they’ve made re-rolling so effortless anyways, ascended stat conversion via mystic forge, you can buy all of your exotic gear on the TP. You don’t even have to level the darned thing, Tomes of Knowledge do that for you.

On top of that other than a back piece you can spend these nifty little laurels and get a full set or trinkets and accessories; and never have to touch a fractal; and ALL ascended armor are ACCOUNT BOUND.

How much easier could that possibly be? Compared to other MMO’s that’s a walk in the freaking park.

Bllade.1029:

A couple of things I wanted to mention in this post, the first being how much I enjoy this new content.

I think Arena net did a fantastic job balancing this new raid content, I know I don’t only speak for myseself when I say that this is has been the most fun and challenging PvE content GW2 has ever had. Period.

I agree. The game has needed challenging content for a long time. I am happy it’s here and available for people who want it. I just wish it had been implemented in a way closer to the GW2 philosophy that the game was sold on.

I see the word “exclusive” being thrown around a lot in this forums. Fact of the matter is, nothing about raiding is exclusive.

Oh wow. Raids are not exclusive on factual basis. I had no idea. Please, explain…

Anyone can acquire ascended gear, even though it really isn’t necessary.

All right, so I must be missing something, because by this very sentence, you have demonstrated it is exclusive. Since ascended gear is not “really” required, this states that is required by some, which it is. And I am sure we can look up objective numbers that show a certain percentage of the population do not have ascended armor and thus, on that criteria alone, are being excluded.

Your statement is subjective. You are stating an opinion that you think the acquisition of ascended armor is so easy that anyone can do it, thus making it inclusive. I can also state the opinion that becoming the President of the United States or attending Harvard is so easy anyone can do it, but yet objective evidence shows a very small percentage of the population have done either, making them both very exclusive.

Even if we both agree that the process of acquiring ascended armor is so trivial that anyone can do it, it still comes with a time requirement. Time to make it or time to raise the gold to buy it. This time requirement is objectively higher than exotic and a number of adults, regardless of our opinion that they can if they really wanted to, cannot meet that time requirement. This makes raiding content more exclusive than historical content that has never once brought up this issue of requiring ascended gear.

Anyone can research builds and level up alts that are more effective than others. One profession being better at something than other professions does not mean exclusion, it means roles. You can’t create challenging content with the expectation that EVERY profession and build will be viable. Doesn’t work like that, never has.

Personally, I never once said it would work that. I understand that it does work like that and that’s why I have made the statement that raiding has a degree of exclusion. Despite, one again, your opinion that this particular task is so trivial it can be done by 100% of the population, there is a time requirement in leveling an alt. Anyone who cannot meet this requirement will be excluded if the main they did level is not viable for the raid, once again, creating a degree of exclusion.

Anyone can gather a raid together and open up an instance and attempt it.

Yes, anyone as long as they have met the asended gear requirement or only selected people who did not have that requirement and are playing a class can contribute, can gather a raid together and attempt it. You are correct in saying this 100% inclusive to, let’s say, 70% of the population.

However, attempting does not result in completion. Completion requires practice. If anyone could complete it on the first try, then it would be very difficult to apply the adjective of “challenging” to this content.

Practice requires time. We have this statement in engineering that given enough time, you can solve any problem or build anything, which is true for anything. With enough time, anyone can beat the raid.

But, as we have already established, time is finite resource not available equally to all players, thus making completion of the raid, once again, exclusive to a percentage of the population.

You may find this acceptable and how it is meant to be. I do not. I think the integrity of the current difficulty level should be preserved via lower diffulty levels with lesser rewards so the percentage of the population who paid for the game and yet cannot make the time commitment the current difficulty level requires can experience the content.

Lack of progression is not being EXCLUDED lack of progression means lack of willingness to adapt. Two very very different things.

Unless you lack the time to invest into that progress, then you are excluded on that criteria. Or your raid party has formed the subjective opinion that you lack the skill or talent to contribute and have removed you, excluding you on that criteria as well. Both of these have nothing to do with a “lack of willingness” or, to be blunt, laziness. In fact, attributing anyone who cannot complete the raid to laziness is a cognitive bias called fundamental attribution error.

Raiding is not easy, an easy raid is called a dungeon or a World Boss. This philosophy that there should be an “easy” version of this raid completely contradicts why these raids were made in the first place. TO BE CHALLENGING.

I welcome your opinion, but it is just that: an opinion. These is no objective criteria that associates a certain degree of difficulty with the label of “raid”. WoW has a casual level of difficulty that I am sure both of us would agree is very easy, but it is referred to as a “raid”.

Perhaps we can agree that the point of raids in GW2 was to add challenging content. However, since what is or is not a challenge is subjective, multiple difficulty levels can be added while still meeting that goal. It just allows players to choose what they find “challenging” while still being within the time investment they are able to give.

A lack of willingness to improve, adapt, and be flexible is not being excluded. That’s exactly the way people are using that term, “I can’t log on and clear this thing with my friends in a casual manner, were being excluded.” That’s bull crap.

What is bull crap is, once again, the logical fallacy of fundamental attribution error you are applying here in which you conclude this issue of exclusivity just comes down to people being lazy. You have failed to recognize other valid factors in play, primarily, the finite resource of time that players have in varying amounts.

Casual and Raid has never been used in the same sentence. Raiding in any MMO in the history of MMO’s has always been a more oriented around very organized group gameplay.

Yes, it has. Casual and the word Raid have been used in WoW’s LFR system. You may not consider that a “raid” by your personal criteria, but it does not change that the precedent has been established.

For the first Raid wing in GW2 ever to release since launch, i’m very impressed with how well they did and i’ve seen complete pug groups clear the wing. Those same pug groups later turned into raiding guilds.

Imagine that. Guild’s actually meaning something in a game called Guild Wars 2.

Great job Anet. Keep it coming.

I agree completely. I’m thrilled that so many people have found this satisfaction. I hope the next raid comes out with varying degrees of difficulty so more of the population can feel the satisfaction you have, but on a level that is reasonably obtainable to them given their time requirements.

Nothing you have stated here established objective fact that raids are not exclusive. Instead, you have tried to pawn off your personal opinions as objective fact and are essentially saying that exclusion exists, but the degree in which it exists is acceptable to your personal standards. I respect that and I welcome you to share that opinion. Just don’t be intellectually dishonest about it.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Bllade.1029:

IndigoSundown.5419:

I suspect the complaints are more about wanting access to L. Armor than about not getting to do the content. That’s not what everyone’s saying, but I’ve seen it enough, and am cynical enough to think that if it isn’t uppermost in peoples’ minds, it will be as raids mature.

But that’s just the thing, they’re not EXCLUDED. Everyone has access to legendary armor, you just need to clear raid bosses in order to get it.

That would also apply to anyone who just wants to do the content. The problem for them, and thus the complaints, is the same that we saw in the dungeon meta. People cba to form a group or join a guild. They expect to just drop into a PuG with whatever they want to bring and be welcomed with open arms. Well, the fancy of “raids and/or trinity will kill exclusion” is gone and they’re now facing the harsh reality that exclusion is going to be worse the harder the content is.

I see what you’re saying, that’s been a common phenomenon since the history of raiding. As much as Anet wanted to kill the trinity, it’s still there. A guardian will never do as much DPS as a warrior; it won’t happen. A warrior will never be able to offer as much support and healing as a guardian.

So on hard DPS/mechanic tests like Gorseval do we expect people to take a guardian over a warrior? No. No we don’t. That’s not a fault in design nor exclusion that’s the nature of raiding in challenging content.

Content should not adapt to us, it’s been doing that for the last three years. Players should be adapting to the content.

This is the FIRST and only instance this has ever happened in the history of Guild Wars 2, and it’s amazing.

MadRabbit.3179:

Your statement is subjective. You are stating an opinion that you think the acquisition of ascended armor is so easy that anyone can do it, thus making it inclusive. I can also state the opinion that becoming the President of the United States or attending Harvard is so easy anyone can do it, but yet objective evidence shows a very small percentage of the population have done either, making them both very exclusive.

Ascended armor isn’t required. We ran a full pug group of full exotics and cleared the wing. Many others have done the same thing. A lack of “ability” isn’t exclusion; it’s a lack of ability.

Also I don’t have time to respond to all of your text you wrote, it’s too long and i’m being excluded. Please nerf the amount of text you can write in one post; or remove the forums all together.

MadRabbit.3179:

All right, so I must be missing something, because by this very sentence, you have demonstrated it is exclusive. Since ascended gear is not “really” required, this states that is required by some, which it is. And I am sure we can look up objective numbers that show a certain percentage of the population do not have ascended armor and thus, on that criteria alone, are being excluded.

Your statement is subjective. You are stating an opinion that you think the acquisition of ascended armor is so easy that anyone can do it, thus making it inclusive. I can also state the opinion that becoming the President of the United States or attending Harvard is so easy anyone can do it, but yet objective evidence shows a very small percentage of the population have done either, making them both very exclusive.

Even if we both agree that the process of acquiring ascended armor is so trivial that anyone can do it, it still comes with a time requirement. Time to make it or time to raise the gold to buy it. This time requirement is objectively higher than exotic and a number of adults, regardless of our opinion that they can if they really wanted to, cannot meet that time requirement. This makes raiding content more exclusive than historical content that has never once brought up this issue of requiring ascended gear.

Let me rephrase his point. Ascended armor is not required. This has been confirmed. People are always going to find some way to exclude people from content. For example, “p2 zerker only ping gear on inv” in dungeons. That doesn’t make dungeons exclusive, it just means that some people are excluding others. You find that anywhere. My raid group has downed the bosses several times by taking pugs and never once have we required someone be in exotics or ping their gear. Since we’re bringing up WoW so much, the LFR system literally requires you to meet a certain gear level before you’re even allowed to hit the “queue for raid” button. Thank god we don’t have that in GW2… right?

MadRabbit.3179:

Personally, I never once said it would work that. I understand that it does work like that and that’s why I have made the statement that raiding has a degree of exclusion. Despite, one again, your opinion that this particular task is so trivial it can be done by 100% of the population, there is a time requirement in leveling an alt. Anyone who cannot meet this requirement will be excluded if the main they did level is not viable for the raid, once again, creating a degree of exclusion.

… (as in “continued”, not I’m responding to this point with “…”)

MadRabbit.3179:

Yes, anyone as long as they have met the asended gear requirement or only selected people who did not have that requirement and are playing a class can contribute, can gather a raid together and attempt it. You are correct in saying this 100% inclusive to, let’s say, 70% of the population.

Frankly, you could argue that there’s 0 time requirement in leveling an alt in that you just get tomes of knowledge handed to you everywhere. But seeing at that’s a kind of dumb argument… these bosses are being downed by people of every class. Of course some classes are going to be harder to find groups with. You’re again making the “I should be able to walk into a raid with whatever class/build I want and find success” except this time you’re just adding “to feel included” at the end. In the end, you’re just excluding yourself from the content if you’re refusing to be flexible and play with the meta. It’s the same argument as to why you can’t just walk into a league of legends game and say “Oh I only play Zed and I build him AP. I don’t know how to play any other champion or build because I leveled my account only playing AP Zed against bots and I don’t want to get any other champions because that’s work. Why can’t I have a positive win rate?” The fact of the matter is that it doesn’t matter what profession you leveled. As long as you build them properly and play them well, you can find success in the raid ==> inclusion. (We find class exclusion when, for example, thieves literally can’t zone into the spirit vale. You can make it easier on yourself to find a group by not playing thief, but you can also not adapt, and play your thief, and be successful.)

MadRabbit.3179:

Practice requires time. We have this statement in engineering that given enough time, you can solve any problem or build anything, which is true for anything. With enough time, anyone can beat the raid.
But, as we have already established, time is finite resource not available equally to all players, thus making completion of the raid, once again, exclusive to a percentage of the population.

You may find this acceptable and how it is meant to be. I do not. I think the integrity of the current difficulty level should be preserved via lower diffulty levels with lesser rewards so the percentage of the population who paid for the game and yet cannot make the time commitment the current difficulty level requires can experience the content.

Leveling to 80 takes time. With enough time anyone can level to 80. But, as we have already established, time is finite resource not available equally to all players, thus making leveling to 80, once again, exclusive to a percentage of the population.

That’s obviously an extreme example, but you get my point. Everything in games is a time commitment. You can honestly find success in the raids by just throwing together a group of friends for 30-60 minutes a week and doing some VG attempts. You might find that success after a month or two, but you will find it. In fact, in theory, this raid wing can be completed in < 30 minutes in total. I would understand the time argument if the raid required you to commit 2-3 hours consecutively in order to complete the content. Obviously that helps, but is in no means required. (What about DS, which requires active participation for an extended period of time. Isn’t that more exclusive?)

MadRabbit.3179:

Unless you lack the time to invest into that progress, then you are excluded on that criteria. Or your raid party has formed the subjective opinion that you lack the skill or talent to contribute and have removed you, excluding you on that criteria as well. Both of these have nothing to do with a “lack of willingness” or, to be blunt, laziness. In fact, attributing anyone who cannot complete the raid to laziness is a cognitive bias called fundamental attribution error.

If that’s your raid party’s attitude, you need to find a new one. Mine has never kicked anyone for “lack of skill”. If you show willingness and improvement, we’ll keep you for as long as you like. Like I said earlier, players will always find ways to exclude other players from content. That doesn’t necessarily make that content exclusive.

MadRabbit.3179:

I welcome your opinion, but it is just that: an opinion. These is no objective criteria that associates a certain degree of difficulty with the label of “raid”. WoW has a casual level of difficulty that I am sure both of us would agree is very easy, but it is referred to as a “raid”.

Perhaps we can agree that the point of raids in GW2 was to add challenging content. However, since what is or is not a challenge is subjective, multiple difficulty levels can be added while still meeting that goal. It just allows players to choose what they find “challenging” while still being within the time investment they are able to give.

Raids were added as a way to provide a challenge to the top tier of players. Anet stated that their game lacked “challenging group content” and they fixed that. While what is considered a challenge is obviously a subjective point, yes, within the context of these statements, Anet is referring to the rest of the game as “not a challenge” and raids as a “challenge”. You can choose what you find “challenging” while still being within the time investment you are able to give. You just might not choose raids. Just as I choose what I find challenging within my time investment. I don’t choose story-mode dungeons, or map exploration. Yet, there’s not a “hard-mode” of those things for me. If you don’t like the way a piece of content functions, yet there’s no hard barrier to entry, the solution isn’t to call for a nerf. It’s to just not play it…. I don’t want Anet spending time on easy-mode raids. I want them spending time on more challenging raids.

Raids are difficult for 1 reason only: To hide the lack of new endgame content in HoT.

The only raid they had wasn’t even ready for the release date and it’s just basically 3 boss fights. There is no exploration, no discovery, no story. It’s basically one 10-player fractal.

If people are quitting the game in the coming months it won’t be because of the raid difficulty, but because the quality and quantity of raid content doesn’t correspond to the difficulty cap. Even if you overcome the difficulty, it’s still really not as interesting as some of the older fractals.

Some people may repeat the raids 1000 times to get a skin, but the majority want to just have a fun gaming with friends experience, challenging to a certain extent and raids aren’t delivering that at all.

Bllade.1029:

No, that’s a lack of flexibility.

Being exclusionary and how flexible something allows a player to be are not mutually exclusive, in fact, I’d say they are related. How flexible the content is will naturally determine how exclusive it is. So to charge someone with being inflexible doesn’t mean the encounter isn’t exclusionary because of the very nature of the relationship between flexibility and exclusivity.

If you refuse to only play one profession, that is not exclusion. That’s on you.
Composition is as much knowledge based as the actual raid itself. That’s what’s so great about these raids, it checks how much you REALLY know about Guild Wars 2. Not just the raid itself.

This type of demand on flexibility has been unseen before in GW2 (and I contend is still unseen with the current raid). Regardless, your view on what people should be willing to do to enjoy the game’s content is contrary to Arena Net’s stated goals with professions and raids. Pre-release Arena Net published an article called Healing and Death, that described their goals with professions and roles as follows:

[A]ll professions have ways to build their characters differently to make them more versatile for group play. […] You could say instead of DPS/heal/tank, we have our own trinity of damage, support, and control, but we prefer to think of them as the variety of elements that create a diverse and dynamic combat system that gives each player a toolbox to work with to solve any encounter we might throw their way.

This article set the tone for an MMO that wouldn’t require specific professions comps so no one was waiting around for a particular profession, only players willing to try different builds to bring the right tools to an encounter to conquer it. This design philosophy behind professions has continued on with the Revenant:

So far we’ve discussed a legend and weapon set that are focused on defense and survivability, as well as a more condition-focused setup. Now we’ll be going over the healing-focused setup for the revenant. The new legend will offer a supportive playstyle and push the boundaries of healing through skillful play.

In recent articles on raids they’ve stressed that this is their goal with roles in raids with statements like:

Raids in Guild Wars 2 are not about waiting to have fun. You don’t need to wait for your healer to get online. Our build-customization and weapon-swapping systems allow anyone to change their build to meet a particular challenge. And while a warrior might support a group differently than an elementalist would in terms of playstyle, our systems allow you to adjust your team’s composition and strategy to overcome any challenge.

Arena Net continues to advocate for an MMO where all professions have the tools to overcome any encounter. I agree that some professions are better at certain roles, but better does not mean required. If it becomes the case that certain professions are required I feel Arena Net needs to address that situation in the balance patches or with future specializations. For balance patches they can look at the tools the professions already bring to the table for a role and improve them. With specializations they can introduce more tools for the profession so it can do better in a particular role.

Telling players to reroll a much beloved profession isn’t a good answer. It’s in my opinion, needlessly restrictive given how many tools the professions actually have and the number of variables in play; which make an analysis of what is viable tremendously difficult. It’s also not very fun, for me. I have always role played a holy knight archetype character or monk (if they can heal). To suddenly be told by a game after all this time that I can’t play my beloved Charr guardian is a huge slap in the face.

Thankfully Arena Net doesn’t seem to agree with your dismally restrictive idea for raids. While they may or may not have achieved their stated goals, I’m hopeful that they will investigate improving profession viability in the future.

softblackcarbon.1537:

Let me rephrase his point. Ascended armor is not required. This has been confirmed. People are always going to find some way to exclude people from content. For example, “p2 zerker only ping gear on inv” in dungeons. That doesn’t make dungeons exclusive, it just means that some people are excluding others. You find that anywhere. My raid group has downed the bosses several times by taking pugs and never once have we required someone be in exotics or ping their gear. Since we’re bringing up WoW so much, the LFR system literally requires you to meet a certain gear level before you’re even allowed to hit the “queue for raid” button. Thank god we don’t have that in GW2… right?

One, the statement was made that nothing about raiding is exclusive. I’m arguing that it adds a degree of exclusivity. I was arguing that in my original post separate to this thread. I understand and have recognized that only some groups require ascended. But unless you are arguing that the reason for them to require ascended argument is disconnected completely from the raid itself and it’s difficulty in relation to dungeons where no such groups exist, then that element of raiding does cause exclusivity.

I’ve never treated this is as a black and white issue. This is why I find a post like his that essentially attempts to sweep all the issues being discussed under the rug with absolute statements to be rather dishonest.

You can find posts of mine that state that exclusivity exists in shades of grey due to varying degrees of challenge. The fact that dungeons are so easy that it’s contributed to a culture of speed running groups means yes, dungeons do cause some degree of exclusivity. It’s just my personal opinion that’s it acceptable for this game, but raiding is not due to my own observations of the impacts the raids have had. You can disagree with that opinion; I’m fine with that.

Frankly, you could argue that there’s 0 time requirement in leveling an alt in that you just get tomes of knowledge handed to you everywhere. But seeing at that’s a kind of dumb argument… these bosses are being downed by people of every class. Of course some classes are going to be harder to find groups with. You’re again making the “I should be able to walk into a raid with whatever class/build I want and find success” except this time you’re just adding “to feel included” at the end. In the end, you’re just excluding yourself from the content if you’re refusing to be flexible and play with the meta. It’s the same argument as to why you can’t just walk into a league of legends game and say “Oh I only play Zed and I build him AP. I don’t know how to play any other champion or build because I leveled my account only playing AP Zed against bots and I don’t want to get any other champions because that’s work. Why can’t I have a positive win rate?” The fact of the matter is that it doesn’t matter what profession you leveled. As long as you build them properly and play them well, you can find success in the raid ==> inclusion. (We find class exclusion when, for example, thieves literally can’t zone into the spirit vale. You can make it easier on yourself to find a group by not playing thief, but you can also not adapt, and play your thief, and be successful.)

Then to some extend, you are arguing a different argument, since the OP stated that certain class compositions not working is inherit and leveling an alt is needed.

But let’s say, this is true. Unless all posters reporting being excluded based on a class are liars, then you are establishing that the exclusion happens to a lesser degree. Exclusion still exists and the difficulty of the raid directly contributes to it being there.

Leveling to 80 takes time. With enough time anyone can level to 80. But, as we have already established, time is finite resource not available equally to all players, thus making leveling to 80, once again, exclusive to a percentage of the population.

You are absolutely correct. That is a degree of exclusivity. Just one that I find to be acceptable given the nature of the game, particularly since acceptable alternatives exist in the the form of Tomes of Knowledge which help players with limited time level up alternative characters.

I think multiple difficulty levels of the same content would help with some the issues of exclusivity I have brought up. No one has brought up an argument to why it can’t be this way that I find really all that satisfactory.

That’s obviously an extreme example, but you get my point. Everything in games is a time commitment. You can honestly find success in the raids by just throwing together a group of friends for 30-60 minutes a week and doing some VG attempts. You might find that success after a month or two, but you will find it. In fact, in theory, this raid wing can be completed in < 30 minutes in total. I would understand the time argument if the raid required you to commit 2-3 hours consecutively in order to complete the content. Obviously that helps, but is in no means required. (What about DS, which requires active participation for an extended period of time. Isn’t that more exclusive?)

You are arguing a different point. I am not talking about the length of the raid, but rather the investment of time required to practice and master the mechanics to be able to beat the raid on a first try. Regardless, I find the length of the raid and the length of DS to result in an acceptable degree of exclusivity which is why I haven’t argue either point.

Referencing DS, it is very plausible to participate on the first try and complete the event with no prior practice. I think, because of this, DS provides a degree of inclusivity that is acceptable for the game.

If you want to argue that is equally plausible to accomplish that feat via the raid, then I will just stop discussing this issue, because I would consider labeling the raids as “challenging” content to be a joke and then immediately concede that the issue of exclusivity is acceptable, because of their lack of challenge.

If that’s your raid party’s attitude, you need to find a new one. Mine has never kicked anyone for “lack of skill”. If you show willingness and improvement, we’ll keep you for as long as you like. Like I said earlier, players will always find ways to exclude other players from content. That doesn’t necessarily make that content exclusive.

But yet since that behavior is a result of the content’s difficulty, then I maintain the content itself brings degree of exclusivity and that’s short of my standard of “nothing about raiding is exclusive”.

Raids were added as a way to provide a challenge to the top tier of players.

I wish you had started this discussion with this sentence, since by stating that tiers of players exist and this content was only for top tier players, you have just conceded that raids are exclusive content. This invalidates everything before, resulting in me just wasting my time in arguing with you to begin with.

I wish the people debating me on this subject would just made up their minds about what their opinion is, because mine has been largely consistent.

If you give casuals enough content of their own, they wouldn’t be insisting on doing raids. That’s the real problem here.

Lord Kuru.3685:

If you give casuals enough content of their own, they wouldn’t be insisting on doing raids. That’s the real problem here.

That doesnt really apply here since this is the first piece of content that isnt aimed at them in over 3 years.

Bllade.1029:

MadRabbit.3179:

Your statement is subjective. You are stating an opinion that you think the acquisition of ascended armor is so easy that anyone can do it, thus making it inclusive. I can also state the opinion that becoming the President of the United States or attending Harvard is so easy anyone can do it, but yet objective evidence shows a very small percentage of the population have done either, making them both very exclusive.

Ascended armor isn’t required. We ran a full pug group of full exotics and cleared the wing. Many others have done the same thing. A lack of “ability” isn’t exclusion; it’s a lack of ability.

Also I don’t have time to respond to all of your text you wrote, it’s too long and i’m being excluded. Please nerf the amount of text you can write in one post; or remove the forums all together.

How about I provide you with a bucket of straw to play with and a copy of “Baby’s First Book” to help with your feelings of being excluded?

Since I am advocating providing multiple levels of difficulty to help with the issue of casuals feeling excluded, I will gladly do what I can to help you out.

I will even go as far as to draw my arguments out in varying colors of crayon and then post the pictures.

spoj.3175:

Lord Kuru.3685:

If you give casuals enough content of their own, they wouldn’t be insisting on doing raids. That’s the real problem here.

That doesnt really apply here since this is the first piece of content that isnt aimed at them in over 3 years.

That’s a +1 if i’ve ever seen one.

spoj.3175:

Lord Kuru.3685:

If you give casuals enough content of their own, they wouldn’t be insisting on doing raids. That’s the real problem here.

That doesnt really apply here since this is the first piece of content that isnt aimed at them in over 3 years.

What does it matter whether this is the first piece of content aimed at them or not?

They feel like there isn’t enough content, so they are “forced” to play content that clearly isn’t designed for them. It’s that simple.

They feel like there isn’t enough content, so they are “forced” to play content that clearly isn’t designed for them. It’s that simple.

So simple eh? Why are you not a video game designer? LOL. Dude – make the content easy for ‘casuals’ and they will blow through it in 30 minutes and complain that they need more content.

Hard content is a kind of gating. Game designers understand that no amount of content will please the ‘casuals’. If you want to see a good example of this – look at WoW which has lost more then 50% of its player base – likely more then 80% in NA.

Games like GW2 have a certain budget – that they can make x amount of content. To get more hours out of it..

They can 1) Make it harder.
2) Make it Grindier.
3) Time gate it – aka you can only run that content at such and such a time.

MadRabbit: I’m not going to quote and respond to parts of your post individually, but I do have a general response.

After reading your post, it’s clear that we’re no longer arguing about whether raids are exclusive or not. We’ve established that all content in the game is somewhat exclusive and now we’re arguing about whether raids are “too exclusive”. I honestly don’t really care that much about the semantics, so while I was arguing before that raids were “not exclusive”, I will switch my stance to “raids are not ‘too exclusive’”. If we are eventually to accept my point, I will say that I would rather word it the way I originally did, as the word exclusive apparently has an extremely negative connotation I don’t want associated with raids because I think they’re awesome, but that’s another point entirely. :P

I guess my argument breaks down into this:
1. Yes, there are different tiers of players. This is true for any game.
2. GW2 has catered to the lower tiers for 3 years.
3. GW2 has continued to cater to the lower tiers through the release of HoT.
4. The lower tier of players have become used to the content of this game being incredibly easy and doable (regardless of efficiency) with any profession and build.
5. The higher tier of players worked to optimize this content as it was what they found fun, but had very little recognition of their progress by the game (they essentially just gathered rewards more quickly).
6. Anet added in one piece of content because they wanted to add something nice for the highest tier of players, while leaving the vast majority of the rest of the game incredibly accessible to the larger player-base.
7. The top tier of players is incredibly happy because this is the content they have been waiting for, and finally have something exciting to do in the game.
8. The lower tiers of players try it, realize it requires them to play and think like the top tier players (which everyone is capable of…), and immediately (like, day of release) call for Anet to change the content because they feel excluded by it.

Do I think that raids “exclude” a larger part of the player-base than the rest of the game? Yes. But do I really think that they exclude people from vital game content? No. Anet specifically designed the raids to make sure that players didn’t feel like they were missing a large part of the game by not playing them, because they knew a lot of players would not want to adapt to the challenge. They didn’t gate any story, masteries (other than the raid-specific ones), or armor-tier behind them intentionally to make sure players feel like they weren’t missing out if they chose not to complete them. And that’s really just it. The barrier to entry on these raids is so much lower than it is in other raiding MMOs (like, pugs were downing VG and Gor during the first week). Raids in other games are exclusive because they require a ton of time investment before you can even start learning the boss fights.

Basically what I’m trying to say, and I think a lot of other hardcore players are agreeing, is that essentially we’ve felt the way people are feeling now about raids, about the entire game up until this point. I know a ton of people who who took long breaks from the game (I stopped playing for about 8 months before HoT because I simply just ran out of challenging things to do after farming for my bioluminescent gear), and came back for the promise of new content and new challenging content. So when we finally get to pour our time into literally three bosses and people immediately start calling for nerfs and changes because they feel excluded from the content even though we’re creating welcoming and friendly communities around the raids, that gets really frustrating really quickly. (Honestly, I’ve never really had any friends in-game in GW2, and now I’m playing with the same 10 people every night and having the most fun I’ve ever had in this game before. My raid group has lead guild raids for each of our guilds – we have members from about 3 guilds in the group – so they could experience the content with more advanced player who were willing to lend them a hand. The fact that people are saying raids are exclusive is baffling to me when all I’ve seen them do is bring people together for laughs and good times.

I think I morphed into a bit of an emotional argument at the end there, which obviously isn’t as logically compelling, and I know people are obviously having different experiences with raids than I’ve had. But the tl;dr is this: Raids are a tiny tiny tiny portion of the game. They provide a much needed challenge for the top tier of players, without shutting other players out of a large amount of content. While players may feel like they are being excluded, the reality is that the barrier of entry is incredibly low. While there are basic requirements for success (play a more meta build for your class), they are easily attainable for all players should they want to find success in raids. Raids are not “too exclusive” and provide a type of content this game has been lacking for three years.

Ugh, I’m not super happy with this post but I’m posting it anyway. I just feel like my arguments are hard to put into words right now. Maybe I helped show people the other side of the argument though? Idk…

SirMoogie.9263:

Arena Net continues to advocate for an MMO where all professions have the tools to overcome any encounter. I agree that some professions are better at certain roles, but better does not mean required. If it becomes the case that certain professions are required I feel Arena Net needs to address that situation in the balance patches or with future specializations. For balance patches they can look at the tools the professions already bring to the table for a role and improve them. With specializations they can introduce more tools for the profession so it can do better in a particular role.

Telling players to reroll a much beloved profession isn’t a good answer. It’s in my opinion, needlessly restrictive given how many tools the professions actually have and the number of variables in play; which make an analysis of what is viable tremendously difficult. It’s also not very fun, for me. I have always role played a holy knight archetype character or monk (if they can heal). To suddenly be told by a game after all this time that I can’t play my beloved Charr guardian is a huge slap in the face.

Thankfully Arena Net doesn’t seem to agree with your dismally restrictive idea for raids. While they may or may not have achieved their stated goals, I’m hopeful that they will investigate improving profession viability in the future.

Yes but there’s a problem there.

Let’s look at warrior.
Warrior can do offensive support(PS/EA Banners), tanking ( just toughness gear), condition damage (berserker condi war) and even some healing – so hypothetically a 10 man warrior party could go into a raid.

How do you then balance things? If you make the content easy enough that their 10 man warrior group can still complete then you’ve successfully created Dungeons 2.0.

Because if you balance around the weakest possible team( warrior x 10 might not even be that) then people using the strongest possible team or more optimized variants will just blow through the content with little trouble.

That’s the problem – if you make raids hard – you have to make them hard and balance them to be hard against certain optimized and efficient compositions which in turn has the side effect that Raids cannot be completed by sub-optimal team compositions because of the desired level of difficulty.

Telling players to reroll a much beloved profession isn’t a good answer. It’s in my opinion, needlessly restrictive given how many tools the professions actually have and the number of variables in play; which make an analysis of what is viable tremendously difficult. It’s also not very fun, for me. I have always role played a holy knight archetype character or monk (if they can heal). To suddenly be told by a game after all this time that I can’t play my beloved Charr guardian is a huge slap in the face.

Raids weren’t meant to be played “how you want” – they were meant to be played in a way that’s effective – because unlike dungeons where you could Yolo SWAG 5 man Cleric’s and still complete in raids lack of efficiency means you won’t get to move past Vale Guardian – not now not ever (unless the content is nerfed heavily).

Thankfully Arena Net doesn’t seem to agree with your dismally restrictive idea for raids. While they may or may not have achieved their stated goals, I’m hopeful that they will investigate improving profession viability in the future.

The problem here is that if they address this by giving more tools to each profession then profession identities become blurred in the extreme.
Imagine a warrior that could give alacrity – that might make him desirable/useful in roles other than offensive support or condi dps but what does that mean when you compare him to mesmer?

There have to be pros and cons for each profession – and those pros and cons will dictate which ones make the cut for teams and which ones don’t.

spoj.3175:

Lord Kuru.3685:

If you give casuals enough content of their own, they wouldn’t be insisting on doing raids. That’s the real problem here.

That doesnt really apply here since this is the first piece of content that isnt aimed at them in over 3 years.

While I completely understand this reaction from the challenge community, I have to wonder if part of the issue is that HoT in its entirety offers little for some players. Those people are as tired of 3-year-old content as anyone else, but even persistent world HoT is a studied departure from vanilla. If you’ve waited as much as three years for new stuff to do, and the XPac is not your cup of tea, I can see some justification for complaining — but it should be complaining about the entire package. If it’s just complaining about raids, then I’m more inclined to think it’s about the rewards.

spoj.3175:

Lord Kuru.3685:

If you give casuals enough content of their own, they wouldn’t be insisting on doing raids. That’s the real problem here.

That doesnt really apply here since this is the first piece of content that isnt aimed at them in over 3 years.

Fractals and Aetherpath were originally intended as hardcore content.

Harper.4173:

Because if you balance around the weakest possible team( warrior x 10 might not even be that) then people using the strongest possible team or more optimized variants will just blow through the content with little trouble.

This assumes the gaps are wide between the weakest and the greatest profession comps ¹ and that they need to remain this way. It also assumes that Arena Net cannot create scaleable content so even the weakest profession comps can do the content, a suggestion made up thread. It’s Arena Net’s stated goal, and one I agree with, so if it is actually the case that the professions are so far apart that some are undesired something has to give. Either Arena Net’s goals for professions and the raid content, or the current raid implementation; presuming the current implementation is actually is in a state where some professions can’t simply contribute to a successful raid run.

Raids weren’t meant to be played “how you want”-

Right, no one is saying that any build or gear should suffice, but well thought out builds and players with sufficient skill for a particular encounter should succeed.

The problem here is that if they address this by giving more tools to each profession then profession identities become blurred in the extreme.

Funny, I don’t recall these lines being so blurred before the introduction of alacrity. So many professions have access to the same buffs and debuffs yet nary a peep was made about the lines being blurred between professions. I for one don’t identify mesmers by their ability to grant a cooldown reducing buff, but by their illusion crafting. If warriors are someday granted a shout that reduces the cooldowns of their party I’m not going to suddenly confuse them for mesmers or think they aren’t unique enough. Regardless, what makes us think of a class as distinctive is fairly subjective. I think Arena Net can make a variety of skills and still make the professions good enough to complete the content in many unique combinations; and that appears to be the case from some of the Vale Guardian fights I’ve seen.

¹ – Where strongest profession comp would be a min-maxed gear/build with the best professions in each role, and weakest comp would be some combination of professions using min-maxed gear/builds for their chosen roles.

People in this thread are just arguing for the sake of arguing at this point.

Anet did a good job, the raids are doable by anyone willing to put the effort into it. If you can’t handle that, maybe raiding wasn’t for you in the first place.

OMG So true! Anyone can lower their ping, just by moving house to another country!

You might need to obtain a VISA or apply for citizenship first, but that’s not EXCLUSIVE now is it..

SirMoogie.9263:

This assumes the gaps are wide between the weakest and the greatest profession comps 1 and that they need to remain this way.

Well the gap is there because different professions do different things. 10x something is always going to be worse than 10 x multiple things because the encounters require a variety of tools and the more classes the more tools at your disposal.
If the content only required a few things, all that could be found on one class – then 10x that class would be viable.

. It’s Arena Net’s stated goal, and one I agree with, so if it is actually the case that the professions are so far apart that some are undesired something has to give. Either Arena Net’s goals for professions and the raid content, or the current raid implementation; presuming the current implementation is actually is in a state where some professions can’t simply contribute to a successful raid run.

I’m sure that the raid design will change in a way that underepresented classes are sometimes desirable – but that will probably happen per encounter.

Imagine a raid wing or boss where stealth is mandatory – who brings a lot of stealth? Thief. Thief that’s not seeing a lot of play in this raid wing. I doubt they’ll change the current raid wing or the professions in order to make them more appealing.
Let’s not forget this game is balanced around PvP not PvE.

Right, no one is saying that any build or gear should suffice, but well thought out builds and players with sufficient skill for a particular encounter should succeed.

Yes and no to that – they want you to bring specific things. Like CCs – regardless of how skilled you are you’re not going to skill your way through a break bar – you will need CCs.

I for one don’t identify mesmers by their ability to grant a cooldown reducing buff, but by their illusion crafting.

That’s because you see the game fundamentally differently than I do -for you a mesmer is a cool thing that does stuff with illusions. For me it’s a buffbot that lowers my skill cooldowns and an annoying tank in PvP right now.

If warriors are someday granted a shout that reduces the cooldowns of their party I’m not going to suddenly confuse them for mesmers or think they aren’t unique enough.

If everyone can do everything then the one who does it better wins. If warriors could provide the party support mesmers provide now there would be no reason to go mesmer in PvE.
Warrior has higher base health, higher damage mitigation (heavy armor) and stronger healing( Healing signet). It is more forgiving to play.

Harper.4173:

Well the gap is there because different professions do different things.

Agreed, but that doesn’t mean we know the size of it and that the size is large enough that the encounters are impossible with(out) certain professions. It’s actually a very tricky thing to measure given the number of variables in play. So to just assume it is 10x some unspecified metric is not only uninformative, it’s short sighted.

encounters require a variety of tools and the more classes the more tools at your disposal.

They require certain tools, but I’m not so sure they’re vast enough to even go beyond one profession with the right build. Do you have any examples?

For example, even boon stripping can be done by any profession specced for crit chance with the right gear. I don’t think it a coincidence that Superior Sigil of Nullification has a ten second internal cooldown and the Vale Guardian’s buff occurs every ten seconds. This would only be required if you found yourself in the unlikely circumstances of having no one with a necro, revenant, thief, mesmer, or engineer. Yet as unlikely as that is, Arena Net may have even considered it when balancing the boon strip cooldown.

Let’s not forget this game is balanced around PvP not PvE.

This oft stated claim is not Arena Net’s actual position, nor how they practice their stated position. Their stated position is they balance for all game modes and would prefer they not have to have different versions of skills/traits among them. You need only look at the history of the confusion debuff to see they balance for both game modes. The small DoT effect was not added to please PvP players but to make it a viable damaging condition in PvE, where mobs can attack at variable rates.

Yes and no to that – they want you to bring specific things. Like CCs – regardless of how skilled you are you’re not going to skill your way through a break bar – you will need CCs.

Right, that’s why I included both build and skill, and didn’t say “skill alone”.

If everyone can do everything then the one who does it better wins.

If it were like a race only awarding victory to the first person across the line, yes. It’s not like that.

Bllade.1029:

—
I see the word “exclusive” being thrown around a lot in this forums. Fact of the matter is, nothing about raiding is exclusive.
—

The idea of “exclusive” is not that it would be impossible to do or get something. The idea is that there are requirements. And raid definitely has some requirements, especially on pugs.

Wethospu.6437:

The idea of “exclusive” is not that it would be impossible to do or get something. The idea is that there are requirements. And raid definitely has some requirements, especially on pugs.

The requirements, however, are simply that you be willing to coordinate and that you be mechanically decent (not even great) at the game. If you aren’t willing to do either of these things, I don’t think it’s unreasonable for you to be unable to complete the content.

Yes sure, but it’s still excluding.

SirMoogie.9263:

This oft stated claim is not Arena Net’s actual position, nor how they practice their stated position. Their stated position is they balance for all game modes and would prefer they not have to have different versions of skills/traits among them. You need only look at the history of the confusion debuff to see they balance for both game modes. The small DoT effect was not added to please PvP players but to make it a viable damaging condition in PvE, where mobs can attack at variable rates.

While it might not be their official stance we can all pretty much see there have been massive sweeping changes that have impacted WvW and PvE greatly that had a lot to do with PvP balance.

If it were like a race only awarding victory to the first person across the line, yes. It’s not like that.

But that’s exactly what Raids are -a race against time.

Rising Dusk.2408:

The requirements, however, are simply that you be willing to coordinate and that you be mechanically decent (not even great) at the game.

If that were indeed true, then it would mean that raids fail at their intended design – they would not be challenging. Remember, that the people that asked for them to be challenging were people already willing to coordinate (and used to it) and aboveaverage skillwise. Any content that is challenging to those players will need to have requirements way more stringent than those you cited.

Harper.4173:

If everyone can do everything then the one who does it better wins

If it were like a race only awarding victory to the first person across the line, yes. It’s not like that.

But that’s exactly what Raids are -a race against time.

But not against other players. You being the first across the line doesn’t make you a winner over all the other participants that managed to get to the end as well.
You doing it better doesn’t matter for others as long as they are doing it “well enough”.

Harper.4173:

If it were like a race only awarding victory to the first person across the line, yes. It’s not like that.

But that’s exactly what Raids are -a race against time.

A race against time isn’t a race with one winner though, that’s where you are mistaken. All that matters is you beat the clock, and you can beat it at several points: 1 second left, 2 minutes left, etc. It doesn’t matter when you beat it the outcome is the same, victory. So your claim that those who beat the clock better win, is mistaken. Even the slowest person can win, so long as they beat the clock.

Astralporing.1957:

You being the first across the line doesn’t make you a winner over all the other participants that managed to get to the end as well.
You doing it better doesn’t matter for others as long as they are doing it “well enough”.

Wish I saw this before posting. Thanks!

Ok, my 2 cents on why I feel excluded. Since I’m full time working guy I can commit about 2 hours a day into gaming. I have full ascended + legendaries, no problem with gearing. The problem is, that since I login in, I really need to have a strict regime in order to do raids. If I’m lucky, I manage to find a group, set up the roles, wait for the group to fill in in about the half of the time I have the ability to commit. Which means that half of my time goes into getting ready. I can hardly call this fun. Then we are doing the raid. By the time the team is starting to get better, I have to leave it, since, you know, real life stuff. Final result: no kills, no sense of achievement, 2 hours wasted. After a few evenings like that I’m giving up, because of the feeling that I’m only wasting my playing time. Any advice on how to get back to raiding?

Manthas.6234:

Ok, my 2 cents on why I feel excluded. Since I’m full time working guy I can commit about 2 hours a day into gaming. I have full ascended + legendaries, no problem with gearing. The problem is, that since I login in, I really need to have a strict regime in order to do raids. If I’m lucky, I manage to find a group, set up the roles, wait for the group to fill in in about the half of the time I have the ability to commit. Which means that half of my time goes into getting ready. I can hardly call this fun. Then we are doing the raid. By the time the team is starting to get better, I have to leave it, since, you know, real life stuff. Final result: no kills, no sense of achievement, 2 hours wasted. After a few evenings like that I’m giving up, because of the feeling that I’m only wasting my playing time. Any advice on how to get back to raiding?

After raiding add the people who you think are good, ask people to add you ( they may or may not depending on how good they find you) tell them you will be raising around this time. Next day ask the people you added if they want to raid, some might want some might not, fill the rest of the spots with pugs. Rinse and repeat until you get a good group. If you wanna speed up the process you got to be more heartless, kick people who are bringing your group down, people who always cause a wipe, especially if they are dps because they are easy to replace. Keep doing this and you’ll clear the raids within a week. Ofc you have to pull your weight too, give advice to new comers make sure you know what you are doing and have fun. If you just keep looking for new group members who don’t know what they are doing everyday you are going to have a bad time. These are raids, supposedly hardest content, least you could do is make some friends to make your life easier, friends are also more fun to play with.

Also raiding no matter how good you are you will feel like you wasted your time if you only look at the rewards, even the best groups wipe a ton before learning and clearing. The trick is to find the fun in the process. It’s like RL you study so many useless topics in school only to nvr use them once you get a job, but is it meaningless? No you make friends you have fun and learn life lessons. It’s the same for raids, if you can’t find joy in the process but only the rewards than I’m sorry but raids isn’t for you. Raids are meant to be for people who enjoy overcoming a challenge to wipe and try again until they beat it, raids were not created just to provide you with legendary armor.

Manthas.6234:

Ok, my 2 cents on why I feel excluded. Since I’m full time working guy I can commit about 2 hours a day into gaming. I have full ascended + legendaries, no problem with gearing. The problem is, that since I login in, I really need to have a strict regime in order to do raids. If I’m lucky, I manage to find a group, set up the roles, wait for the group to fill in in about the half of the time I have the ability to commit. Which means that half of my time goes into getting ready. I can hardly call this fun. Then we are doing the raid. By the time the team is starting to get better, I have to leave it, since, you know, real life stuff. Final result: no kills, no sense of achievement, 2 hours wasted. After a few evenings like that I’m giving up, because of the feeling that I’m only wasting my playing time. Any advice on how to get back to raiding?

Some people in my raid group have about the same amount of time as you, yet we cleared it with no problems (tho prob a little later than most considering we usually only had 1h30min). Point is, if you really want to raid there’s no reason you can’t. Think ahead and get some proper organisation going instead of relying on randoms. Ofc it’s not fun the way you’re going about it.

In both cases, the basic point is, that I have to commit myself more and start planning ahead. However, planning my day around video game kind of leads to stressful situations which are, yeah, not fun. I don’t want to force my definition of hardore, but when you have to plan a whole week in order to beat a raid…

Manthas.6234:

In both cases, the basic point is, that I have to commit myself more and start planning ahead. However, planning my day around video game kind of leads to stressful situations which are, yeah, not fun. I don’t want to force my definition of hardore, but when you have to plan a whole week in order to beat a raid…

That depends on when you wanna beat it. Wait a month and it’ll be on farm for so many ppl you prob won’t have much trouble clearing it in more than 3 days with pugs, but yes if you want the journey of experiencing that first kill you’ll have to commit some time to it. Tho tbh it looks like you’re wasting more time looking for pugs then you’d need to actually organise something if you made the effort.

Anyway, the reason you feel excluded is entirely in your own hands. If you don’t want to commit to it it’s safe to say raids probably isn’t content you’ll enjoy any time soon.

Only thing I don’t like about the raid is the enrage timer. I get why it’s there, to prevent people in full tank gear from owning the place easily, but you’re trading out another thing for that…time. The playerbase alone already sets their own standards for completing things. People who don’t like a dungeon ending in 20 minutes and instead wants to lower it to 18, people who want to make runs faster, easier. This raid should be no different, the players should be the ones adding their own idea on how fast a boss should go simply on their own requirements for a raid.

Anet didn’t want to shoehorn us into roles or the like to begin with, but is now doing exactly doing that with the enrage timer, something I don’t like simply because I play this game to be able to challenge myself to complete something with my own setup, not one somebody else wants me to have. If I want to deal with an enrage timer or a set stat build for a raid with set class roles, I’ll log into Final Fantasy XIV and do some of Alexander Savage mode or any number of the Extreme bosses. But not here, NOT HERE.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Anet didn’t want to shoehorn us into roles or the like to begin with, but is now doing exactly doing that with the enrage timer

They’re doing so because of player demand.

Agree to IndigoSundown and:

RyuDragnier.9476:

The playerbase alone already sets their own standards for completing things. People who don’t like a dungeon ending in 20 minutes and instead wants to lower it to 18, people who want to make runs faster, easier. This raid should be no different, the players should be the ones adding their own idea on how fast a boss should go simply on their own requirements for a raid.

The raid wasn’t meant for players you are talking about and Anet announced that before releasing HoT!

IndigoSundown.5419:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Anet didn’t want to shoehorn us into roles or the like to begin with, but is now doing exactly doing that with the enrage timer

They’re doing so because of player demand.

So the players demanded harder content that they can zerk in? The joy, especially considering zerker is so braindead easy to do to begin with. Though I do give credit for figuring out how to hold aggro on the bosses, I thought that would be pretty hard to figure out without an actual aggro meter.

I do apologize btw for sounding irritated by the forced setup for raids, I do raiding in FFXIV and expected Anet to try something out of the box for it, not stick with the same old same old you expect from standard trinity MMO raids.

cranos.5913:

Wait a month and it’ll be on farm for so many ppl you prob won’t have much trouble clearing it in more than 3 days with pugs

Funny thing, i heard exactly the same a month ago. Will likely hear it in a month as well.

RyuDragnier.9476:

IndigoSundown.5419:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Anet didn’t want to shoehorn us into roles or the like to begin with, but is now doing exactly doing that with the enrage timer

They’re doing so because of player demand.

So the players demanded harder content that they can zerk in? The joy, especially considering zerker is so braindead easy to do to begin with. Though I do give credit for figuring out how to hold aggro on the bosses, I thought that would be pretty hard to figure out without an actual aggro meter.

I do apologize btw for sounding irritated by the forced setup for raids, I do raiding in FFXIV and expected Anet to try something out of the box for it, not stick with the same old same old you expect from standard trinity MMO raids.

But we have diversity tho.. there r different setups to overcome a boss. And the sabetha boss doesnt even need a tank. Like some chose to go double DH to keep light fields on sabetha, while others just relay on other like pure druid. I heal in raids on mine, but i dont consider myself a healer, more like a support. If someone dies, then often it is due to them making a mistake, which is part of the mechanic that they should master. Druids also provide damage to the raid, thats a support aspect. I like to think that we all provide something to overcome the boss, while the “roles” may be there.

In the end, since we have so many individual ways to avoid damage, the better the raid group is the less dependant u are on hard heals. Take the last sentence with a grain of salt, but gw2 raiding certainly isnt black and white when comparing it to other traditional raiding mmos.