Guild Wars 2

Hey Anet and dear devs,

I would like to address a real issue that most players are facing these days (players that never done raids till this point). We have here 2 major issues:
1) So you are a newer player (lets say 3-4-5 months) and you have the basics to start raiding (got your ascended weapons and trinkets, the meta build or whatever build give you the highest dps or condi whatever). So you go and check for parties. No one is actually letting you stay (and I don’t mean on Monday Elitist day). So this would be the first issue: LFG system to me is broken. I have nothing against people wanting to do thing with their party / squad, but new players DO NOT have the opportunity to learn raids. The only way I was able to actually learn the VG for example was on youtube checking vids from other players. That should not be happening. Each players should have the opportunity to learn the raid (so not talking about making the raid easier, I am just talking about the mechanics). Bottom line: even if you know the raid, maybe you did it a couple of times, players will just not take you because they ask for LI ping (and in some aspects I fully get that, nobody wants to carry bad players on their own time).
2) Because the struggle with raiding is real, sometimes I start these training parties on LFG and you just get really – really bad players that don’t know what to do, because they are not given the chance to learn (so excluding those I wanna raid but I’m too lazy to study the raid bosses and mechanics).

So, making this story short: you are new, you want to raid, you can’t learn, players want experience, you can’t train – how in Gods name is one suppose to raid?
TBH this is making a lot of people not so interested in raiding because it’s just not accessible. If people are not into raiding they will no longer craft (why would they) and they will just stick to PVE or some daily PVP whatever works). End game content must be made available to players and they should have a system that will allow them to train on it and learn it. So again, I don’t want to make it easier or scale bosses. Raids are so much fun and hard to do, they should stay like that, but people must have equal changes to study them.

So here’s my suggestion to this issue:

We should have a system (don;t wanna name it because I am not a fan of that game) where players are matched based on the level of experience they have and create automatic groups for raiding. LFG should still be available, but implement this new system for new players that want to learn the raid. I think bosses here should be scaled and also the reward track should be eliminated (not fair for players, as you are getting things easier). So using this noobs can do their thing, learn the mechanics and join other parties once they have the needed experience for real raiding. As a side note: please don;t tell me that raiding should be done in guilds, because not all players are into guilds and also it’s not normal to limit my time to guild schedules. This should be adapted to all players. Some of us have jobs, or kids whatever and don;t have the time to be available to fixed schedules for training purposes.
I think having this system would be so much better, people would really get into raids more, you would have more groups learning about them and looking for the end content.

What do y’all think about this? Also sorry if this was already addressed but would appreciate an answer from a raiding dev regarding this.

Emperor Palpatine.5329:

We should have a system (don;t wanna name it because I am not a fan of that game) where players are matched based on the level of experience they have and create automatic groups for raiding.

How do you measure “level of experience”?

Well I’m thinking of marking in the system the LI (like LFG pugs are doing now) and based on that you can check if the player did it before, how many time etc. If no LI you should have the bossed scaled to a min accepted level. Or maybe do it like fractals.

I know that training for raids isn’t something that you guys are specifically interested in, however it’s shame to see good content (cuz raiding is OMG, so kitten in this game) go to waste or be available only for few people that have a lot of experience doing this.
Making a specific system in place for noob players might eliminate a lot of issues: all elitists will be free to do whatever they want without other players making "OMG elitis, can;t raid bla bla bla), let people train on the mechanics, don’t nurf current raids, no rewards, but you get the training out of it. You become better and you can go and do them for real. I think it should be easy for the code to read the LI you have, and based on that create a squad. You can continue doing whatever you are doing on the map until the squad is ready and you begin the raid. Maybe making them like fractals isn’t easy to develop. Of course I’m not a dev so I have no idea the time, money and effort this might take.

Emperor Palpatine.5329:

Well I’m thinking of marking in the system the LI (like LFG pugs are doing now) and based on that you can check if the player did it before, how many time etc.

How is this system going to help with the accessibility? Is this going to make the LFG posts requiring high amounts of LI disappear?

You can already do it now by making a LFG entry requiring 0 LI, it’s not like you can’t do it now

Well Sir to answer these questions:
1) Post will LI will always be present. You can;t change what people want to do, its their own time and that is that. What will go away will be the posts by other players (that want to learn the raid but can;t because of elitism and LI ping bla bla). Now they have the chance to learn the mechanic, git gud and once that is done join groups or start ur own whatever and do the kitten raid.
2) That is the problem that is causing all these posts with I can;t raid. It’s a circle that comes back to the same issue: no experience, you can’t do the raid, no one will take you, boss is too difficult for training purposes and for players that don;t know the mechanic. Since you can;t learn the mechanic other way – except by doing the actual raid – we have a big problems And that Sir is ur circle of never ending issues.
Just make a system that is better for players and that is helping the player base and pushing it to raid. Don’t let raids end up like dungeons. Lack of interest is a big – big issue. If players end up doing more AB or DS versus a raid, y’all that is a problem. That means that content is not reachable except for a minority, and the game is for all players.

Emperor Palpatine.5329:

What will go away will be the posts by other players (that want to learn the raid but can;t because of elitism and LI ping bla bla). Now they have the chance to learn the mechanic, git gud and once that is done join groups or start ur own whatever and do the kitten raid.

No, people will still complain. It’s not the group that is willing to take effort and try to get things done proactively. It’s the group that opens the LFG try to join random groups and get kicked because they think/want raids are/to be fly-by-content.
We already have enough tools for getting into raiding. People just don’t use them, most often due to laziness. All you have to do is to get out of your comfort zone, afterwards raids will be very easy due to becoming routine.

I still don’t see your “system” which has no specifications at all despite being a “system” being better than joining or creating training runs. You can also differentiate training groups and I have already seen them: “VG training – know mechanics” vs. “VG training – let’s try it out”. With the commander tag you are also able to exclude players that do not fulfill your requirements if made – even for training runs.

Emperor Palpatine.5329:

Now they have the chance to learn the mechanic, git gud and once that is done join groups or start ur own whatever and do the kitten raid.

So once they learn the mechanics and get good they will be able to join groups (that they can’t now) because of what? Will they get those LI and KPs they need to join groups by running the training?

Since you can;t learn the mechanic other way – except by doing the actual raid – we have a big problems

The idea of “learning” a mechanic through training depends on how the training is implemented. If it’s implemented through blanket reduction on all/most important Raid mechanics then its value as training is effectively zero, like reducing all damage, hit points and increasing enrage timers. In that situation, I’ll take someone with zero Raid experience over someone with the wrong Raid experience any day.
Let’s say that green circles at VG take 2 seconds longer to explode in the training version. Suddenly if you are supposed to be on green duty in the actual raid, you will be a burden for your team (and cause wipes).
Let’s say that in the training mode Gorseval deals less damage with reflects while doing the black goo attack, now in the normal mode you are a liability for your team as if you are a dps you are more likely to go down, and if you are a healer, chances are you never understood how to heal properly at that phase.
Let’s say that Sabetha’s flamethrower doesn’t kill people but it causes damage instead. I don’t think I need to tell you how detrimental that would be to the entire encounter. The “Hey, in the actual Raid that attack would kill you, so try to avoid it in that, but no problem here.” isn’t exactly an argument.

Most ideas for training modes assume that those participating in that mode will actually use it for training. Which is probably really far from the truth.

Emperor Palpatine.5329:

Well Sir to answer these questions:
1) Post will LI will always be present. You can;t change what people want to do, its their own time and that is that. What will go away will be the posts by other players (that want to learn the raid but can;t because of elitism and LI ping bla bla). Now they have the chance to learn the mechanic, git gud and once that is done join groups or start ur own whatever and do the kitten raid.
2) That is the problem that is causing all these posts with I can;t raid. It’s a circle that comes back to the same issue: no experience, you can’t do the raid, no one will take you, boss is too difficult for training purposes and for players that don;t know the mechanic. Since you can;t learn the mechanic other way – except by doing the actual raid – we have a big problems And that Sir is ur circle of never ending issues.
Just make a system that is better for players and that is helping the player base and pushing it to raid. Don’t let raids end up like dungeons. Lack of interest is a big – big issue. If players end up doing more AB or DS versus a raid, y’all that is a problem. That means that content is not reachable except for a minority, and the game is for all players.

How is this a problem ? The game was never founded on the basis that people would be required to raid and doing a successful DS or AB requires more people than doing an instanced content with ten people. At the end of the day, it is pure choice. If you have the time to commit, the willingness to learn, do it and join the different training runs that people advertise and that you can advertise. If you can’t be glad that you can already change your stats with a mystic forge recipe. Other than that, I think it would be bad for the game to dedicate more resources into raiding that what the devs already have if the identity relies much more on casual metas and dynamic events that require more than ten people.

Are u an actual dev for Anet for just a random guy?
First of all can you please tell me what are these tools of geting into raids? Besides LFG I do not know any other “tool” used for raiding. LFG = cancer.
Blaming laziness of players because of low interest in raids = you just made by above point. Of course I will go and do AB or DS or whatever if I can;t actually raid because I can’t learn it. People want content that is accessible, not something designed for a small group of people. The fact that you will always find other players that are actual lazy is different. For that you can have a kick system based on 60% of the group agreeing. Not all people are lazy Sir. It’s on thing to say “people are lazy” and it’s another to look at this issue as “no training available for raiding”, bit of course it;s always easier to be lazy, blame other people for actual problems instead of looking at the issue with an objective eye. Side note: what is Anet doing anyway with raiding? They wanna keep it for like 100k players that have exp or what? I don;t get it…you would think end game content is something a company is interested in and pushing players to do it.

The system I have explained above. Make a LFR automatic system (like in PVP) that you access and it puts you in a waiting queue. This should only be done for training purposes. In the queue the game will search other players that match your skills based on different criteria (LI, time in game, number of hours, masteries, fractal level etc). A group of 10 players i created and they go and do the actual raid as a noob group. Simple and easy.

Emperor Palpatine.5329:

Are u an actual dev for Anet for just a random guy?
First of all can you please tell me what are these tools of geting into raids? Besides LFG I do not know any other “tool” used for raiding. LFG = cancer.
Blaming laziness of players because of low interest in raids = you just made by above point. Of course I will go and do AB or DS or whatever if I can;t actually raid because I can’t learn it. People want content that is accessible, not something designed for a small group of people. The fact that you will always find other players that are actual lazy is different. For that you can have a kick system based on 60% of the group agreeing. Not all people are lazy Sir. It’s on thing to say “people are lazy” and it’s another to look at this issue as “no training available for raiding”, bit of course it;s always easier to be lazy, blame other people for actual problems instead of looking at the issue with an objective eye. Side note: what is Anet doing anyway with raiding? They wanna keep it for like 100k players that have exp or what? I don;t get it…you would think end game content is something a company is interested in and pushing players to do it.

The system I have explained above. Make a LFR automatic system (like in PVP) that you access and it puts you in a waiting queue. This should only be done for training purposes. In the queue the game will search other players that match your skills based on different criteria (LI, time in game, number of hours, masteries, fractal level etc). A group of 10 players i created and they go and do the actual raid as a noob group. Simple and easy.

The tools are:
- LFG used to look for a training/raid guild for beginner
- forum – the “Looking for” section
- your own guild
- friends
- reddit because there are raid training initiatives

Don’t tell me that you have used all of them properly and conscientiously and you still couldn’t get into raiding.
That’s what I meant with “laziness”. People don’t spend time to do some research and altercate with raids. They just want to “hop in” and *that’s not how raids are working" because this content is more challenging than the rest of the pve game where you can literally press 11111 and win the trophy.

Btw. I wouldn’t call the LFG cancer, on the contrary it’s a superb helping tool.

And yes, raids aren’t content for the majority of players and that’s fine. Raids were developed to give players a more challenging environment in the game that was missing for years!

A basic automated system wouldn’t work so easily like you want to pretend here. No system in the world can really identify if you are exp on an encounter. Where do you set your limit? Done the encounter 5 times? 10 times? 50 times? That’s why people are using LI to get a higher probability of success, of course a 200 LI player can still be bad but most often he knows what he is doing.
Number of hours is also bad because some people are resistent to learning and wipe for hours and hours. Fractal level is also bs because you can push that with doing Molten Boss only to lvl 90.
In the end it’s way better to set your own requirements and let others fulfill these. Way better than to rely on a system with vague indicators and you have to kick 5 out of 10 players because they doesn’t fit at all.

OK , now I know u are just a random guy.
So you are probab one of the elitists that think raiding is only for this group of people.
Don;t tell me what I;ve done and I am doing because you don;t know me. You hav no idea how difficult it was to actually find a guild that could teach me how to raid, and the language barrier is real. People don’t know English and when a non English speakers explains the bastion and all u hear is big d…k stay away it’s kind of difficult. But of course when u identify with the elitists it’s easy to say OMG U are lazy. I call BS on that Sir!
Those tools…what? Are u kidding me? I get more info off of WP and Brasil)
I’m not going to explain myself to people that think others should not do a specific content. If you want that develop a game for 100k people, pay like 1000 euros’ a month for support and develp and leave gw2. This is a game for a lot of people and since they are paying customers they should have the same opport as the rest. Guild, friends and reddit? What? Are you for real? My friends play WOW because they can raid there
In the end systems should be in place to make sure that the exact people like you are balanced and do not disturb other players performance. Game should have constant development and must always attract new players. If raids are not played, those 6 devs that are working on them have no point = they are assigned to different parts of the game. A clear example of that is dungeons. You have dungs that are so amazing and no one is doing because people lost interest in them and because high elitism made newer players stay way from them. No more players doing that dung, no more dev for them. Main idea is that raiding in GW2 is broken. It is available for a small section and other players are not able to even study them. Not all people know English to read redit for utube, not all people have guild in the native language and so on. mechanics in a game must be studied IN THE GAME, not outside it. That is not normal. Scale down, make training or just let raids die. If you don’t believe check the LFG and count the number of available people, it’s a dry content for such a huge player based game (taking into account that 75% of players are PVE).

Emperor Palpatine.5329:

So you are probab one of the elitists that think raiding is only for this group of people.

Well, I guess you have never read the official announcement of raids. They are special content and of course not for everyone per design. They are their “ultimative challenge” for groups and that has nothing to do with being an elitist.

Emperor Palpatine.5329:

Don;t tell me what I;ve done and I am doing because you don;t know me. You hav no idea how difficult it was to actually find a guild that could teach me how to raid, and the language barrier is real. People don’t know English and when a non English speakers explains the bastion and all u hear is big d…k stay away it’s kind of difficult. But of course when u identify with the elitists it’s easy to say OMG U are lazy. I call BS on that Sir!

When I got back to raids after a break from them I had only killed VG with not optimal formed groups and without a meta. I joined a total casual guild which was easy as hell and they were only able to kill VG and had good attempts on Gorse if the VG kill of the week was achieved fast. After some weeks I went on because their progress wasn’t the same as mine and I found another guild, used training runs in the LFG and worked towards success. So yes, the entry is hard because you don’t know nothing when you start but the more you get used to it the easier it gets – for everyone. Especially now with guides, training initiatives and builds from quantify.

Answering the english problem: Don’t join such groups or immediately leave them if you can’t communicate with them. But let’s be real this issue is almost never present only a small percentage of players isn’t able to understand the basic things with english language. And even if so, you can still watch videos without sound and see what’s going on on the screen + understand the basic mechanics.
So, I see you are bringing up things that rly aren’t ones. The bs is more on you tbh.
And yes, you can also study the mechanics ingame. I already said: In training runs you can practice and the game also tells you what to do on bosses, guides and videos are an additional help that can – not must – bring you faster to your goal which is killing the boss.

What info do you need from WP and Brazil? I have never needed any information of them when preparing to raid, there are way better sources like guides, reddit threads and other stuff. Dunno why you bring those two up, they aren’t the source you want to use when raiding.

Emperor Palpatine.5329:

I’m not going to explain myself to people that think others should not do a specific content. If you want that develop a game for 100k people, pay like 1000 euros’ a month for support and develp and leave gw2. This is a game for a lot of people and since they are paying customers they should have the same opport as the rest. Guild, friends and reddit?

Has anybody said you should or shouldn’t do specific content? I doubt so. I have the feeling you don’t understand the whole thing. Raids are specific content, yes. Like PvP and WvW, or fractals or dungeons. But that doesn’t mean that if you put 1000 euros per month in the game you should be able to be successful in every aspect of the game.

Another thing: Raids are sane atm., dunno what you are talking about. They have a high popularity and the LFG is always full from afternoon to midnight. Only fractal LFG and open world central tyria-squads can compete against in numbers!
And don’t bring in dungeons. Seriously, they are full of bugs, very old content, were abandoned by Anet with official statement and by the players when Anet capped the reward. Those rewards are back now – a thing that many many players haven’t realized till today – but it was obvious that they are boring as hell for the majority of players after having done them thousands of time.
If one day raids will have the same fate you can’t deny that there will be new content, this is how the life circle goes in games.

My friend, I know that raiding is end content. I am not arguing about that. What I want anet to do is invest in the getting into raids part. Training, changing the way people learn the raids and making it’s content available.
Having a system that will gather noobs players and let them study the raid on a lower scale is something that can help other players to get into this.
Finding a guild is actually difficult. Maybe u are NA or from English speaking countries. For me, personally, that’s not an issue, but making a country guild, with people playing GW2 is not easy. For 6 months now I’m trying to gather people and getting them to play, but that is hard, because the numbers are low. For example an UK or Spanish guild that would be easier. The time is also a problem. If ur in the east part of EU and u join a guild from UK or Spain u have a time difference. I don;t want the easy way, I am suggesting to make things better. I never got why do people hang on to a specific thing so much without contemplating the idea of change. All should enjoy all aspects of the game, like WvW or PVP – if u suck at it because u don;t train and learn how to play u get kicked or u die and fail. But make it available, dont keep stuff for the 100k people that are doing raids at the moment. That is not acceptable to me. I invest time and money in the game and my expectation from anet is to invest in this aspect as well

Emperor Palpatine.5329:

This is a game for a lot of people and since they are paying customers they should have the same opport as the rest.

They do have the same opportunity. Every single active raider became one by using the very same tools that are available to everyone.

Yeah, that’s the problem. Because only a small number of people are doing that. The rest find this entire system broken and just refuse to take part in it. And I understand it…why should I go to all this trouble just to raid? It’s just a game after all. But the real problem is that these people once they are done with the PVE content they leave the game. Anet should be checking the retention part with strict eyes. If ur end game content is not available to all players you have a problem. It’s like playing the story and not being able to finish it because the content is way to difficult for u and u don;t have the opportunity to learn it in game.

Emperor Palpatine.5329:

It’s like playing the story and not being able to finish it because the content is way to difficult for u and u don;t have the opportunity to learn it in game.

The problem with your suggestion is that it does not address your own problem. Let’s see a few “problems” as given by members of our community:

Problem: “I want to experience the story of Raids!”
Solution: Add a Story Mode version (even soloable) so everyone can experience the story of Raids

Problem: “I will never get Legendary Armor!”
Solution: Add an easier mode that requires more grind, and is slower, but in the end gives Raid Armor

All are problems for some people, and all have solutions that can help fix those problems, it’s debatable if those solutions are needed, are worth the time to implement and so on, but at least they are solutions to the problems.

Your Problem: “LFG is full of LI requirements that doesn’t allow me to get a Raid group”
Your Solution: “Add an easy mode so I can practice the Raid and once I’m done I will move on to the normal mode”
You never explained how that part will happen. How will adding a training mode eliminate the “200+ Li” LFG requirements? Will the training mode also offer LI? Because once you learn the mechanics you’d be at square one again.

what are u talking about? Have you even read my post?)) That is not even my problem…OMG talk about “looks who’s talking”. maddoctor please READ my post and after come back to me. Thank you!
As a side note i think some of the players just want to refuse by default any ideas to improve the game because the hang on the the status quo to have that unique feeling of “I am the best”.
CHOICES

Basically a scaling like in Fractals would be nice. In Fractals, you get Mistlock Instabilities at higher levels though and killer rabbits appear randomly, and the environment of Swampland changes. Raids should not be another form of Fractals, no adds with higher levels. Mechanics should be the same, but in easier modes, mobs deal less damage, are slower etc.

Like when you enter the raid, you can scale it with a slider. No rewards unless you pull the slider to max. I would definitely start getting into raids.

Right now the raid section of LFG is like asking for a trial session at FC Barcelona because you have watched football on TV for a while and know the mechanics of the game.

Edit: to the LI on LFG problem, they could give you some tokens for doing the lower scaled raids to show as proof that you spent time learning the mechanics. That’s still better than having nothing to show like now.

mmmm interesting. That might work. Don’t change the reward track, keep it for highest level, but scale it somehow. Not bad, and also easier to implement I think.

maddoctor.2738:

The idea of “learning” a mechanic through training depends on how the training is implemented. If it’s implemented through blanket reduction on all/most important Raid mechanics then its value as training is effectively zero, like reducing all damage, hit points and increasing enrage timers. In that situation, I’ll take someone with zero Raid experience over someone with the wrong Raid experience any day.
Let’s say that green circles at VG take 2 seconds longer to explode in the training version. Suddenly if you are supposed to be on green duty in the actual raid, you will be a burden for your team (and cause wipes).
Let’s say that in the training mode Gorseval deals less damage with reflects while doing the black goo attack, now in the normal mode you are a liability for your team as if you are a dps you are more likely to go down, and if you are a healer, chances are you never understood how to heal properly at that phase.
Let’s say that Sabetha’s flamethrower doesn’t kill people but it causes damage instead. I don’t think I need to tell you how detrimental that would be to the entire encounter. The “Hey, in the actual Raid that attack would kill you, so try to avoid it in that, but no problem here.” isn’t exactly an argument.

Most ideas for training modes assume that those participating in that mode will actually use it for training. Which is probably really far from the truth.

You assume the worst outcome and base your opinion on that. In low scaled versions of a raid, green circles at VG could take, let’s say, 5 seconds longer to explode than normal. Next scale, 4 seconds, then 3 and so on. People would naturally learn that the higher the scale, the shorter the amount of time until they explode.

Same with reflection damage on Gorseval. You scale in several steps, so it’s obvious that at the next scale level, the reflects deal more damage.

This works for Fractals. While Aetherblade force fields or Thaumanova lasers don’t kill you at lower levels (in fact, you can ignore the latter completely), they will down/kill you at T4. So what? You learn that with the first attempt in normal mode. Do you really expect people to do a perfect kill-run after having trained? Even with the current way, training in a guild, you can watch the raid from the ground a couple of times until you learned all the things that kill you.

Emperor Palpatine.5329:

Yeah, that’s the problem. Because only a small number of people are doing that.

No, it’s not. You can’t force people to make the same choices, and you don’t have to. The game offers a multitude of experiences which can appease a multitude of tastes. It’s unreasonable to expect every single player to like every single experience in it. More to the point, it is unreasonable to expect every player to invest the time and effort he needs to in order to raid actively. This content was obviously designed for the more dedicated players, based solely on how challenging it is. Better tools won’t make a big difference in accessibility. More players will try the content, but they won’t be willing to spend enough time to actually be successful in it, so they will quickly move out of it.

That’s not to say “it’s better to have poor tools”, it’s to say you’re fixating on a non-issue and proposing ways to “fix” it which won’t even work.

Faaris.8013:

You assume the worst outcome and base your opinion on that. In low scaled versions of a raid, green circles at VG could take, let’s say, 5 seconds longer to explode than normal. Next scale, 4 seconds, then 3 and so on. People would naturally learn that the higher the scale, the shorter the amount of time until they explode.

I think you underestimate the power of habits. It’s harder to “un-learn” a “training” timing than to learn the real one. So I’m with maddoctor on this point.

@Feanor: that principle worked well for many console games. I started playing games in the 90’s, and games at that time started easy and got harder and harder the further you proceeded. It’s also how humans learn in other environments. You start speaking/writing with easy sentences, that’s not a habit you keep when learning more about writing.

I give my kid a smaller football to learn kicking it, doesn’t mean he will have a hard time switching to normal sized balls when he grows up.

More players will try the content, right. That also means more players will stick to it. This is how countries get great sports teams. They try to get as many people as possible to try it out, because this is the way to discover talent and build a greater pool of players who stick to it. If you build basketball courts all over the place, you’ll have more people trying them out, and more people discovering their talent and if they have fun sticking to it. If you don’t care about luring people into playing basketball, your league will be a weak competition for countries who do care to get as many people interested in it.

I wasnt going to chime in but just cant resist. Sadly what the OP and others want is a system like WOW. Well, this ISNT WOW, by a long shot!
In WOW the raids scale…damage on normal bad but doable, in Mythic it will wipe your raid, period. There is no need for this, if anything the raids in this game at far to mechanic driven (in my opinion) leaving no time for actually dps’ing and the like. But guess what…people are getting it done, even me! Yes, its daunting at times and so many times I have sworn on Discord at the boss or ANET for my failure, but a lot of that comes from years of WOW raids and being used to macros, and targeting and whatever. This game is DIFFERENT, and for good reason! So many WOW clones have come and gone but there seems to be hope for GW2, and raids add to that.
Now, the LFG sucks, but not because of it in itself, its the community. The “meta mentality” as I call it really sucks the fun out of playing a “main”. You just cant really and raid as well, you need to be able to switch it up. But I agree with what was posted about “dumbing down” raids. If you make green circles easier and you learn them as such then when its harder you back to square one. That’s exactly the issue I have now! I have pre-programmed raiding in my brain and this game doesn’t have aggro, damage mitigation, blocks, attacks that heal (yea, was a Blood DK, lol) so that is where I struggle.
But I can tell you OP, I quit raids for about 6 months….joined a guild with a casual outlook and now we 1 shot most bosses. I have only to kill the end Boss of each wing to have completed them and that is a huge progression in my book.
So, all the posting in the world isn’t going to change what ANET has done because it works, period. What could change is the mentality of those that advertised in a PUG (pick up group, not static, get it?) to not be so demanding but then again people are allowed to play as they want.
Also, would absolutely LOVE to see dps meters go away, they are toxic to raids. Its been proven over and over that you don’t need uber high dps to succeed so if that’s the case then why bother having a “tool” that mostly serves to call people about on sucking more than someone else? But that’s a whole other post….lol.
So, if what you want is that “system” of easiness, go back to WOW sadly. Otherwise, keep trying, learning, playing and you will get there! If me, a one finger typing clicking old school 56yr old tank from WOW can do these raids, I dare say anyone can!!! And I have fps of 17 most times and ping of 300, so yea, ’nuff said mate. Cheers!

Emperor Palpatine.5329:

what are u talking about? Have you even read my post?

This is what you wrote:

So using this noobs can do their thing, learn the mechanics and join other parties once they have the needed experience for real raiding.

So how will someone who gets experience in the training be able to join normal mode parties? If the barrier for entry in normal mode raids is LI what makes you think that the barrier will disappear if they add a training mode?

Did you even read what you wrote?

@Emperor Palpatine.5329

I’ll add here so as to not make my wall any bigger…lol
The LFR in WOW was driven by Blizzard. They used gear score to put together 5/10 or 25 people for a run. GW2 LFG is player driven, and therefore you will always have restrictions or whatever people want because of that.

Faaris.8013:

In low scaled versions of a raid, green circles at VG could take, let’s say, 5 seconds longer to explode than normal. Next scale, 4 seconds, then 3 and so on. People would naturally learn that the higher the scale, the shorter the amount of time until they explode.

A full scaling effect for green circles? Adding multiple scales in the Raids? As if adding one extra mode wouldn’t be more than enough effort, now you want multiple new scales?

And you are delusional if you think people will learn that way. You even made my argument for me using the Thaumanova lasers example. It’s useless to even deal with those at a lower level since they don’t deal much damage and can be ignored, so the teaching value of it for the higher levels is essentially zero.

Taking someone without any kind of experience is far better than taking people with the wrong kind of experience.

Faaris.8013:

@Feanor: that principle worked well for many console games. I started playing games in the 90’s, and games at that time started easy and got harder and harder the further you proceeded. It’s also how humans learn in other environments. You start speaking/writing with easy sentences, that’s not a habit you keep when learning more about writing.

It’s a valid point, but it is missing the group aspect. You won’t always have the group of 10 players who are all at the same level in their learning progress. In my opinion it will lead to even more wipes and frustration when different players have different habits and fail to match the exact requirements of the modified environment.

Joxer.6024:

Also, would absolutely LOVE to see dps meters go away, they are toxic to raids. Its been proven over and over that you don’t need uber high dps to succeed so if that’s the case then why bother having a “tool” that mostly serves to call people about on sucking more than someone else?

Because I want to know how well I’m doing and I want to become better, okay?. And no, dps meters do not make raids any more toxic. To be honest, I’d much prefer being kicked out because I suck at dps than being kicked out on some arbitrary reason like having 5 LI less than asked or not running the absurdly overpriced top food and hence losing 1-2% of my dps. Get it already – it’s the people who are toxic, not the tools, not the game modes, the people. I fail to understand why so many are having problems grasping such a simple concept.

P.S. Also while high dps is not required to beat the encounter, it does reduce the difficulty and increase the chances of success. Many encounters have various mechanics which can be skipped or reduced by simply having high enough dps. So the tool doesn’t serve me to call others – I’ve never done that, not on a single occasion – but to help me and my group get smoother and more enjoyable experience.

Faaris.8013:

@Feanor: that principle worked well for many console games. I started playing games in the 90’s, and games at that time started easy and got harder and harder the further you proceeded. It’s also how humans learn in other environments. You start speaking/writing with easy sentences, that’s not a habit you keep when learning more about writing.

That’s how Guild Wars 2 works. It starts easy (low level open world PVE), gets tougher (dungeons / low tier fractals), gets even harder (higher tier Fractals), then the ultimate PVE challenge (Raids). Along the way you have easy events, moderately challenging events, and the hardest events possible (like Dragon’s Stand). I don’t see people asking for an easy mode Dragon’s Stand, or an Easy mode Chakk Gerent and so on.

And even within Raids there are easy Raid encounters and hard Raid encounters. Getting progressively harder the further you proceed is exactly how Guild Wars 2 works.

maddoctor.2738:

Faaris.8013:

@Feanor: that principle worked well for many console games. I started playing games in the 90’s, and games at that time started easy and got harder and harder the further you proceeded. It’s also how humans learn in other environments. You start speaking/writing with easy sentences, that’s not a habit you keep when learning more about writing.

That’s how Guild Wars 2 works. It starts easy (low level open world PVE), gets tougher (dungeons / low tier fractals), gets even harder (higher tier Fractals), then the ultimate PVE challenge (Raids). Along the way you have easy events, moderately challenging events, and the hardest events possible (like Dragon’s Stand). I don’t see people asking for an easy mode Dragon’s Stand, or an Easy mode Chakk Gerent and so on.

And even within Raids there are easy Raid encounters and hard Raid encounters. Getting progressively harder the further you proceed is exactly how Guild Wars 2 works.

To be fair Chak Gerent was made considerably easier a while back. Have burned Ogre lane on first burn in the past. Yes it still fails sometimes but that is player error. It is monumentally easier than it used to be. Dragons stand doesn’t need an easy mode. Even with pods coming back up and resetting lanes to get pods down and boss group back up I havent seen it fail in months. Maybe im just lucky with maps. Also not CC’ing until 3rd bite, isialnds being completely devoured it still succeeds.

@ fearnor..
“Get it already – it’s the people who are toxic, not the tools, not the game modes, the people. I fail to understand why so many are having problems grasping such a simple concept.”
yea, with that I do agree.
“So the tool doesn’t serve me to call others – I’ve never done that, not on a single occasion – but to help me and my group get smoother and more enjoyable experience.”
And yea, I wish everyone used them as such. I mean in WOW you got kicked for low dps, period. You go improve and try again. Its just a shame many others cant be like you in that respect.

Join the guild that does training and/or casual raids. No need to invent new systems and overthink things.

Joxer.6024:

@ fearnor..
“Get it already – it’s the people who are toxic, not the tools, not the game modes, the people. I fail to understand why so many are having problems grasping such a simple concept.”
yea, with that I do agree.
“So the tool doesn’t serve me to call others – I’ve never done that, not on a single occasion – but to help me and my group get smoother and more enjoyable experience.”
And yea, I wish everyone used them as such. I mean in WOW you got kicked for low dps, period. You go improve and try again. Its just a shame many others cant be like you in that respect.

Well… what can I say, it’s the people problem again. You just shrug and find others to play with. I get easily triggered by the “dps meters are evil” notion because I’ve seen all the toxicity they are supposed to create before they became a thing.

Raids were not designed to be pugged. So lfg is a terrible place to try and learn raiding.

The best place to learn how to raid is with a group of guild mates. There are lots of guilds recruiting on the forums that offer teaching and training raids. There are also like minded groups of individuals that have no experience but want to raid. Raiding is hard and it will likely take new groups some time to learn how to do it. You have to go through the growing pains like everyone else. You just have to change your mindset and not expect to knock out a raid in the first several tries.

Feanor.2358:

Joxer.6024:

@ fearnor..
“Get it already – it’s the people who are toxic, not the tools, not the game modes, the people. I fail to understand why so many are having problems grasping such a simple concept.”
yea, with that I do agree.
“So the tool doesn’t serve me to call others – I’ve never done that, not on a single occasion – but to help me and my group get smoother and more enjoyable experience.”
And yea, I wish everyone used them as such. I mean in WOW you got kicked for low dps, period. You go improve and try again. Its just a shame many others cant be like you in that respect.

Well… what can I say, it’s the people problem again. You just shrug and find others to play with. I get easily triggered by the “dps meters are evil” notion because I’ve seen all the toxicity they are supposed to create before they became a thing.

I’ve found them to be a double edged sword. They are great for personal improvement but are often used out of context. Take vale guardian. Some players have roles besides damage – green circles, etc. – that take them away from dishing out constant dps or away from group boons.

Solstace.2514:

Feanor.2358:

Joxer.6024:

@ fearnor..
“Get it already – it’s the people who are toxic, not the tools, not the game modes, the people. I fail to understand why so many are having problems grasping such a simple concept.”
yea, with that I do agree.
“So the tool doesn’t serve me to call others – I’ve never done that, not on a single occasion – but to help me and my group get smoother and more enjoyable experience.”
And yea, I wish everyone used them as such. I mean in WOW you got kicked for low dps, period. You go improve and try again. Its just a shame many others cant be like you in that respect.

Well… what can I say, it’s the people problem again. You just shrug and find others to play with. I get easily triggered by the “dps meters are evil” notion because I’ve seen all the toxicity they are supposed to create before they became a thing.

I’ve found them to be a double edged sword. They are great for personal improvement but are often used out of context. Take vale guardian. Some players have roles besides damage – green circles, etc. – that take them away from dishing out constant dps or away from group boons.

DPS meters are great, let me give you my last week example:
I was pugging Gors, on the lfg it was “Gors exp – No updraft” i joined it as a cond reaper, there was another cond reaper on the group.
Ok we go in fail to phase gors at 67, then we fail again at 37, this go on for 5 tries. People get upset, someone is really lying about being exp.
Without meters what would happened? Me and the other reaper would get kicked, because you know, necros are the bottom of dps. (The other reaper on subgroup 1 was top dps by a good margin).
But them i looked at the meter and see my dps is not that great, its lower then my usual and i was doing my rotation nice without going down. So I use another tab of the dps meter that a lot of people forget, the boons duration, and i see that the PS warrior on my subgroup had 8k dps while giving only 10 might, and my chrono had only 30% quickness and 20% alacry uptime in a fight we stick together while doing 1k dps and not distorting last Gors pool.
I dont know if both of them are exp or not, or not doing the rotation right or not having the right gear; It doesnt matter because its an exp run they should know their role, if they had good boon duration and ok DPS it wouldnt matter the build or rotation that their are running.
I point it to the raid leader, he kick both, another PS and Chrono join, and we one shot Gors.
Without DPS meter the reapers would be kicked, and the group would still fail and disband without knowing why. DPS meters are so good for raiding that it should be a in game tool for raids.

Yeah, I call the “DPS meter create an even more toxic environment” a myth by those who fear to get kicked due to abysmal dps. Let’s be real, I pugged a lot since the usage of meters has been allowed and I’ve yet to see a group that kicks players with at least decent dps numbers. I suck at tempest (I’m often #4 in terms of dps from 4 slots) and still pugged successfully while nobody mentioned anything. A solid rotation with missing things here and there is not hard and won’t be any issue to the usual pug. And most of the groups also know that missing dps can be a mistake of warriors, chronos and druids as well + failing of mechanics by others.
The only kicks I have seen and those were justified when I encountered warriors doing 2k dps. That’s literally pressing autoattack and nothing else. Or tempests below 10k dps with horrible gear sets and no clue how to handle their class.

In my daily T4 today I met a power phalanx strength warrior that died (not downstate, complete death) more than 5 times. He was getting carried so hard I haven’t seen for months and when I gave him the advice that it is not the best thing to go ps warrior melee in fractals without excellent knowledge he just answered with and I quote: “This game is about play how you want.” No sign of regret or thankfulness that he got a free T4 fractal reward, not a single notice of being deadweight for the group which he was so heavily. That makes me sad and this is the attitude that makes players setting up requirements to ensure that those people do not get a free ride or prevent the own group from being successful.

Emperor Palpatine.5329:

Side note – I really hope they will implement mounts in the next exp to see all these let’s not change things people with a cracked face. Just for personal enjoyment of course and then come back to me and tell me…OMG it’s never gonna look like WOW because this is GW2. I’s not about WOW for whatever, it;s about making something that works. So what is wow uses similar systems with I proposed? Who cares? Is it working? Use it
And LFG should not change. I only proposed this for noobs that want to learn the mechanics of the game.

Question: What do you want to achieve with this statement? I just ask because most of us raiders really don’t care about mounts. Is your disputable comment for the average GW2 player? If so, wrong subforum.
I would welcome mounts – I always welcome content or things getting into the game as long as the implementation is on a decent level.
Btw. it’s the casual crowd that hates “change” at most. Implementing your system wouldn’t harm raiders per se but like some other posters and me already illustrated, your system doesn’t promise a better status quo afterwards.

So let me just drop some hard math for the DPS junkies here, and everywhere I can.

VG:
22,000,000 hp.
Split 1:
Red = 540,705 HP
Green = 722,579 HP
Blue = 540,705 HP
Split 2:
Red = 540,705 HP
Green = 722,579 HP
Blue = 540,705 HP

total hp to drain: 25,607,978
timer: 8 minutes (480 seconds)
Group dps = HP to drain / Timer
53,349.95416666666… rounding up to 53,350
53,350dps / 10 members = 5,335 personal dps requirement.

Now for those that don’t know, many classes can do this without teammates’ help. My power necro can do 7-8k, for example.
The fact that people are so hung up on dps really irks me. Nobody ever really tries to quantify mechanics, tell anyone else what to look out for, or even give advise for new players.

“Get ascended, learn your rotation, then google it” is the common trend. And it’s really annoying.
I’ve seen masterwork teams clear without hitting enrage. I’ve seen 5 mans do it.
And this is just VG. One of the most organization and mechanics centered bosses (honestly the best to start learning raids with, imo).
Then there are class mechanics that shrug off mechanics entirely. Chronomancers can give their team distortion, so with good timing you ignore every green.
Necros/reapers can shroud tank just about everything in the encounter and laugh.
Most healers can straight up sustain a team through a seeker or two just kind of sitting on everyone…

It’s really, really, really not as hard as everyone says. It’s all a matter of organization and learning.. which so few groups tend to care about doing. Most everyone on these forums is so obsessed with dps that they forget to talk about mechanics.. because DPS is just another way to jank an encounter.

You break gorseval by hitting him hard enough, you skip phases on KC by hitting him hard enough, etc.

Nah, they are not obsessed with dps it’s just common sense that the more dps you bring the easier it is to kill a boss. KC with a good amount of dps in the burn phase = 3 phases in total and not a single more. Gorse no updraft = no need to fly outside and walk around like chicken. VG with enough dps = little field rotation = lesser possibility of mistakes and so on. Similar things on the other bosses.
I’m also a fan of playing mechanics properly while most of my guild mates are dps orientated. In the end you need both and in pugs it’s a matter of fitting together or not.

I think the OP has conflated a bunch of things that relate to mechanics, sociology of groups, psychology of players, and the habits of highly effective (and highly ineffective) players.

It’s always difficult for new players to learn after content has been out for a while. Some veterans want only other veterans, so they don’t have to spend extra time. Some new players expect to be able to jump start to the advanced content (and some can manage it, many cannot). Some veterans get used to doing things one way, when several methods work (and sometimes are superior).

There’s no simple way to change that dynamic, regardless of the awesomeness or terribleness of the in-game tools for getting people together in the same group.

As has always been the case, finding a group of like-minded people works best. That’s why reddit has an entire folder (and discord) devoted to matching people up with other raiders. That’s why many guilds offer training (and many others only train members they have vetted first).

Lots of bad information in that post.

But i’ll humor the notion that, new players need to “learn” and there’s a system that can “group” people for them.

Let’s assume here for a second that automatic sorting of players will solve the issue (I disagree but i’ll entertain it).

How are you going to sort players in this game with no specific “roles” ?
How are you going to determine experience ?

I have in my head a few ways to solve the second, and that is to add a private (player only side) kill tracker per boss. However, this comes with a major problem. You’d only find groups in LFG with similar kill totals to your own. Meaning, nothing changes for the new people as they’d never find groups. Additionally, having a kill total doesn’t mean you’re experienced on the class/role you’re in LFG for.

So now we arrive at the real problem, how do new players learn the raid ?
The same way everyone else did. Group with new players and fail together. Failing is part of the learning process.

@ OnizukaBR.8537 and Vinceman..

Don’t get me wrong, I do agree with what you say in that dps meters can be a good thing. I myself ask our raid leader each week for the “numbers” so I can have a look at my boons uptime and all that. I’m condi PS so outright dps isn’t that important to me as is keeping up the might stacks and such. But when I see 18k + in a fight it does make me happy as I am improving.
Sadly I have seen PUG leaders have a go at someone who wasn’t bad, but was just lower than “the benchmark” and he got flamed and then kicked. That’s where they don’t shine but I reckon its not fair to blame the tool as its the person who did the action.
So yea, used correctly and in a positive way the meters area great “tool”, and should stay as such, a tool, something to help a raid.

Vinceman.4572:

Yeah, I call the “DPS meter create an even more toxic environment” a myth by those who fear to get kicked due to abysmal dps. Let’s be real, I pugged a lot since the usage of meters has been allowed and I’ve yet to see a group that kicks players with at least decent dps numbers. I suck at tempest (I’m often #4 in terms of dps from 4 slots) and still pugged successfully while nobody mentioned anything. A solid rotation with missing things here and there is not hard and won’t be any issue to the usual pug. And most of the groups also know that missing dps can be a mistake of warriors, chronos and druids as well + failing of mechanics by others.
The only kicks I have seen and those were justified when I encountered warriors doing 2k dps. That’s literally pressing autoattack and nothing else. Or tempests below 10k dps with horrible gear sets and no clue how to handle their class.

In my daily T4 today I met a power phalanx strength warrior that died (not downstate, complete death) more than 5 times. He was getting carried so hard I haven’t seen for months and when I gave him the advice that it is not the best thing to go ps warrior melee in fractals without excellent knowledge he just answered with and I quote: “This game is about play how you want.” No sign of regret or thankfulness that he got a free T4 fractal reward, not a single notice of being deadweight for the group which he was so heavily. That makes me sad and this is the attitude that makes players setting up requirements to ensure that those people do not get a free ride or prevent the own group from being successful.

Just ouch. Now I can say first hand I have sucked as cPS but never have I hit under 12k dps, ever. to me 12k is embarrassing enough but if I keep up the might and such it doesn’t sting as bad. And as mentioned I have 17 fps and 300 ping, so yea, I can see your point for sure on those calls. That Warrior in the fract was sadly just one of the few (I hope) that think they don’t need to try. Sorry folks, you do need to show some effort when playing with others. If you want the whole “I play what I want” experience, enjoy running solo.

TexZero.7910:

How are you going to sort players in this game with no specific “roles” ?
How are you going to determine experience ?

I have in my head a few ways to solve the second, and that is to add a private (player only side) kill tracker per boss. However, this comes with a major problem. You’d only find groups in LFG with similar kill totals to your own. Meaning, nothing changes for the new people as they’d never find groups. Additionally, having a kill total doesn’t mean you’re experienced on the class/role you’re in LFG for.

So now we arrive at the real problem, how do new players learn the raid ?
The same way everyone else did. Group with new players and fail together. Failing is part of the learning process.

Yup, that’s how LFR killed raids in WOW (for the most part). The "system’ put you together based on gear score, and guess what…people could cheese their gear scores with lower raids, the LFR version of a heroic raid, buying it, etc. Now, put these people together for an actually raid,but hardly any experience in said fight and you get fail, every time. Just made it so that if you didn’t have a guild you simply stayed away from doing the actual raids, and only did the watered down lesser ones, which got old fast.

So guys maybe we went a bit off the main topic here, by talking about DPS and other things that do not relate to my initial post.
So let me re-cap a bit and get things going into the right direction
Reading all these above post, I can agree that indeed some of the tool that are recommended by you, for new raid players, are valid.
My issue, at the end of the day is not with elitist, with LI ping or any other player related behavior, as that will never be changed by someone.
So I propose a strict analysis based on an idea I will provide below and only for those point we should talk about. Nothing beyond it, just to entertain the idea and see whta + and – it may have.
Idea:
Anet creates a LFT (Looking for Train) mode.
You access it just like you do with LFG. Select the Raid you want to train on and wait in queue until 10 people are selected (it is generated by the system, no human intervention on the way the squad is created).
In order to make it work Anet would have to develop a similar trophy, like the LI, that players will gain by completing these training. If you completed VG in training mode you get 1 and so on. Based on that the system can check what group should you be assigned to.
Actual raid mechanics:
All raid bosses and mechanics are lowered on the damage they cause, however core mechanics stay the same. For in VG for example the green orbs will have the same principle, if they appear because of bad tanking and you don;t have players on them you die.
What will be different is the actual damage that red circles, orbs and other raid specific mechanics will bring. They will still do damage but it will be lowered, as to accommodate a new player. I saw a lot of ideas to change the mechanics of the orbs and such, but I do not agree with that. Just have mechanics the same, except the damage is lower than the actual raid.
So after a player will complete the training she/he will receive a trophy, much like LI and with that the system can assign them to higher and higher groups of training, until the actual training = the raid. At that point it should be good for raid. Once you are done with this you can try your luck with LFG and see what squad will take you. The main difference versus the way of working we have now is that some of the players will actually know what they need to do in the raid and not waste time, generate useless talk or cause unending frustrations.
I propose this way of letting other people study and learn raids because:
- LI ping real issue
- raids mostly done via the guild (not acceptable for everyone)
- PUG = complete fail in most cases
- You start training on LFG and players with no knowledge and no interest in the raid join and you (as a person that wants to learn and gives input) lose time.

So, going back to this, what do you guys think are the major downfalls…but please just stick to this and don;t add other stuff that is not relevant here. If more info regarding this system is needed please ask so I can answer it

Emperor Palpatine.5329:

Select the Raid you want to train on and wait in queue until 10 people are selected (it is generated by the system, no human intervention on the way the squad is created).

Let’s see why this is a problem even for the very first Raid boss (Vale Guardian), heck even before reaching the actual fight itself but the trash mobs.

You need someone with extra toughness (above the others) to tank Vale Guardian
You need enough players with good condition damage to deal with the Red Guardian
You need some reliable form of Boon strip to deal with the Blue Guardian
You need a good mix of ranged and melee characters, so the ranged ones can go to the green circles
You need enough Healers to defeat Vale Guardian
Having a Chrono + Druid + PS Warrior triples the DPS of the team. A team with 2 x Chrono, 2 x Druid, 2 x PS Warrior + 4 random DPS builds deals way more damage than 10 random DPS builds (plus other buffs, heals, survival etc)
Selecting 10 Random players won’t work very well on Vale Guardian.

In order for an automatic system to work they’d need to make sure there is a very distinct idea of Tank/Healer/Damage role so you can pick which one you use and the system can put you in the correct slot. That’s not possible at the moment in Guild Wars 2 as there are no clearly defined roles like that. In other games you decide you play a Tank, many classes can play Tank and they are -mostly- interchangeable. That’s NOT the case in Guild Wars 2.

Once you are done with this you can try your luck with LFG and see what squad will take you.

Why do you believe the LI requirements on LFG will disappear if they add this training? Once you are done with training you will be at square one again, looking for (normal mode) training runs to earn those LIs in order to join faster runs after. Nothing will change regarding the LFG.

OP something you may not be aware of is that raid bosses have very different levels of difficulty from one another.

For example, vg isn’t the easiest boss imo. imo escort is the easiest raid ‘boss’ and then trio, and then mursaat overseer. You may want to try doing those raids first, as they are a good way to get you the introductory experience (using voice coms, using a rotation, understanding your role in a group, and what a group normally looks like).

Once you have those bosses, gorseval, samarog, and kc are a small step up in difficulty.

imo, vg is in the middle in terms of difficulty, many players think it is one of the easiest, but I believe that is only because it is their most experienced fight.

maddoctor.2738:

Emperor Palpatine.5329:

Select the Raid you want to train on and wait in queue until 10 people are selected (it is generated by the system, no human intervention on the way the squad is created).

Let’s see why this is a problem even for the very first Raid boss (Vale Guardian), heck even before reaching the actual fight itself but the trash mobs.

You need someone with extra toughness (above the others) to tank Vale Guardian
You need enough players with good condition damage to deal with the Red Guardian
You need some reliable form of Boon strip to deal with the Blue Guardian
You need a good mix of ranged and melee characters, so the ranged ones can go to the green circles
You need enough Healers to defeat Vale Guardian
Having a Chrono + Druid + PS Warrior triples the DPS of the team. A team with 2 x Chrono, 2 x Druid, 2 x PS Warrior + 4 random DPS builds deals way more damage than 10 random DPS builds (plus other buffs, heals, survival etc)
Selecting 10 Random players won’t work very well on Vale Guardian.

Complete valid points. You are correct here So maybe they might also create these squads based on the specs needed. So get 3 eli, 2 heal etc. Of course you can’t know for sure if the Eli is on the correct build…but than again evein in regular grp u don;t know that unless u check the dps or ping the gear.

In order for an automatic system to work they’d need to make sure there is a very distinct idea of Tank/Healer/Damage role so you can pick which one you use and the system can put you in the correct slot. That’s not possible at the moment in Guild Wars 2 as there are no clearly defined roles like that. In other games you decide you play a Tank, many classes can play Tank and they are -mostly- interchangeable. That’s NOT the case in Guild Wars 2.

True as well. Since the don’t use the holy trinity, on the other hand maybe the tool might have like a select ur role thing (its stretching a bit, I know but as a solution). Like before u go to the queue it can ask you for the role u want to play.

Once you are done with this you can try your luck with LFG and see what squad will take you.

Why do you believe the LI requirements on LFG will disappear if they add this training? Once you are done with training you will be at square one again, looking for (normal mode) training runs to earn those LIs in order to join faster runs after. Nothing will change regarding the LFG.

I don’t think they will go away, however this proposal I want to run by people has the end scope of training new players into the raid mechanic. Can;t change people wanting LI ping…that is still an issue and will always be (if its not LI, its gonna be gear ping bla bla bla). But at least u have the opp to know the mechanics, and to be fair some LFGs will accept u without LI if u know the mecha of the raid.

But I appreciate the nice criticism and the constructive approach u are providing

thrag.9740:

OP something you may not be aware of is that raid bosses have very different levels of difficulty from one another.

I know I know
Actually I am already speaking with some friends and see if we wanna try VG or the escort first. I’ve done both of them, but with experienced pug groups (i was lucky I guess), but sadly never completed – except the VG.

For example, vg isn’t the easiest boss imo. imo escort is the easiest raid ‘boss’ and then trio, and then mursaat overseer. You may want to try doing those raids first, as they are a good way to get you the introductory experience (using voice coms, using a rotation, understanding your role in a group, and what a group normally looks like).

Once you have those bosses, gorseval, samarog, and kc are a small step up in difficulty.

imo, vg is in the middle in terms of difficulty, many players think it is one of the easiest, but I believe that is only because it is their most experienced fight.

I know. Actually this is an issue I raised in one of the raiding guilds I am in. I was “guys why are we doing VG when the mech is harder vs escort?” they replied with WE know the mech of the well :| and half of the grp was composed of noobs with average dps of 2k)) I was surprised we managed to kill him.

VG is actually a rather good introduction to raids. Yes, it is mechanically challenging, but that gives people a good idea what to expect from raids. If you start with Escort you can create unrealistic expectations in new players and when they encounter one of the harder bosses the experience can be too disheartening for them and cause them to quit raiding.