Guild Wars 2

Kagamiku.9731:

…snip

So the short of this is there has not been a justification for a damage nerf…as I saw zero of those questions actually answered.

It’s a “Does a revenant have too much support while having access to relatively high damage with the easiest mechanics to maximize said damage.”

There isn’t anything to argue if you don’t agree with that. I think they do, you obviously don’t.

Maybe this could be remedied if revenant wasn’t such a passive class…I thought Warrior was passive, but rev’s take the cake.

/end

Kagamiku.9731:

Maybe this could be remedied if revenant wasn’t such a passive class…I thought Warrior was passive, but rev’s take the cake.

/end

thats because you dont understand the class. rev isnt passive at all.
and you dont run glint mallyx, you run glint jalis.

NoTrigger.8396:

Kagamiku.9731:

Maybe this could be remedied if revenant wasn’t such a passive class…I thought Warrior was passive, but rev’s take the cake.

/end

thats because you dont understand the class. rev isnt passive at all.
and you dont run glint mallyx, you run glint jalis.

I understand the class perfectly, and yes it is passive. Just because each passive effect also has an active effect doesn’t mean that the class isn’t passive. Healing signet has an active, it’s still a passive skill. The passive is the bread and butter of Rev skills. Literally the only utility skill you use the active of on your rotation is elemental blast because it provides a a bit of extra damage. And Gaze of Darkness in the off chance you need a stun break. A rarity in the first raid wing. But all the the passives are far better than their actives and failing to use the actives would result in a rather minor dps loss.

And you do infact run Malyx, running Jalis doesn’t even make any sense. All Jalis is good for is stability, and you need stability in raids for what exactly? Malyx is highest damage besides shiro and shiro is pointless with a Chronomancer, hence Malyx is used.
http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Herald_-_S/A

deSade.9437:

So, I wanted my condi warrior because we really needed condis and people didn’t wanna play engi, right? Right, so I got commanded to roll vipers with nightmare/diamond+bursting/earth with sini trinkets, right? Right, but I’ve been thinkin’, instead of nightmare runes on burnzurkur, isn’t it better to go zerk runes for the additional condi damage and just go malice sigil+viper amulet… Or something like that.
I don’t know if the meta is changing at an alarming rate, I’m too annoyed and bored to bother searching deep into nerdholes.
I’ll go through another surging-runes-on-mes fiasco (kittenmit Tobi I’ll never forgive you and myself) only if absolutely necessary… Especially if there’s a nerf on the way.

If I recall correctly, Nike did the math for both builds, and he stated that the difference is negligible. So Use whatever floats your boat. Not a fun of zerk runes because condi war has the lowest auto attacks in the game, and also, earth sigil has 1337 bleedz

You want to run jalis over mallyx because it is just way more dps. Arround 7-13k more dps depending on your autohit. You clearly dont know whats jalis can do. The hammers alone are as much dps if not better than the 10% boots + you dont miss autoattacks. I wont click on the metabattle links because the builds there are worse than yours, but I think you should not copy and paste builds that are old and far from optimal

So you’re going to prove me wrong by pulling random numbers and discrediting a site renowned for optimized builds in each game mode?

renowned for optimized builds in each game mode
metabattle

what?

Not only are the builds taken from good players but they’re also rated. That particular build was taken from DnT.

Please explain how the site isn’t reliable?

The build did not change at all in the last 20 days at metabattle
The buildcreator himself Plays Glint/Jalis
I’m not pulling numbers out of my kitten, I just stated that you gain at least one more autohit from taking Jalis which usually hits for about 7-13k.

Why would you gain one more autohit from using Jalis? You don’t attack faster, I don’t understand what you mean. Or are you referring to overall damage gained throughout the duration of Jalis?

Mallyx elite has a casttime while jalis hammers dont.The additional time can be used to hit one more time. You want to use the spinning hammers in jalis

Well then, I guess the meta has changed. Though it shows how insignificant non-auto attack damage is if a 3/4 second cast time is what seperates one stance from doing more than the other.

Kagamiku.9731:

Why would you gain one more autohit from using Jalis? You don’t attack faster, I don’t understand what you mean. Or are you referring to overall damage gained throughout the duration of Jalis?

http://www.sickestguild.com/forum/m/31644179/viewthread/25124131-spirit-vale-dps-herald-guide

^ basic guide on how to be a good rev. Including a video demonstration and explanation on how to do the jalis hammers. (PS Metabattle is bad.)

Also for anyone else who is interested burnzerker is nowhere near 40% more damage than anything else considered ‘meta’, for example Staff Tempest on gorseval comes within ~400 DPS during the entire course of the fight assuming you glide. If you don’t glide then burnzerker begins to pull further and further ahead. If you want proof feel free to waste your own time and run the numbers and tests yourself.

>Activate Facet of Nature (skip this if already activated)
Vengeful Hammers
Legend Swap in the cast time of Vengeful Hammers (this will leave one hammer active in Glint)

Is that some kind of bug? Doesn’t sound intended.

And while admittedly I don’t use my own builds, I still understand the rotation. Didn’t know about the hammer bug/trick though, so thanks for that.

Kagamiku.9731:

Well then, I guess the meta has changed. Though it shows how insignificant non-auto attack damage is if a 3/4 second cast time is what seperates one stance from doing more than the other.

its not just the cast time. hammers are more dps than the stat boost from mallyx, they proc lifeleech trait and heal you + give you 20% damage reduction.

meta hasnt really changed, people are just super late to the party.

and as others have said, dont use metabattle for pve builds.

Dommmmmmmmmm.6984:

Including a video demonstration and explanation on how to do the jalis hammers. (PS Metabattle is bad.)

“Learn how to permanently maintain Vengeful Hammers while in Glint”

i would change that sentence to “learn how to play without using bugs”.
also your guide is missing other rotations/priority lists.

NoTrigger.8396:

Dommmmmmmmmm.6984:

Including a video demonstration and explanation on how to do the jalis hammers. (PS Metabattle is bad.)

“Learn how to permanently maintain Vengeful Hammers while in Glint”

i would change that sentence to “learn how to play without using bugs”.
also your guide is missing other rotations/priority lists.

Quite the argument there, friend.

What’s amazing in this thread is that we’ve got 2 page of people agreeing that the rev damage rotation is to simple but still argue against each other.

The revenant issue only lie in it’s sword. The solution is simple and I’ve seen it a lot in this thread, rebalance sword’s skills in such a way that using sword #2 and #3 in a rotation don’t end up into a dps loss but into a DPS gain. This should be done by slighty lowering the AA coefficient and slightly enhancing skill #2 coefficient so that using sword #2 add a good damage spike when full buffed.

Otherwise, I’m still thinking that burns damage need to be tone down a bit and no, it wouldn’t kick the engineer out of it’s place. Engineer where already top condi damager before the burn buff. The only one that would really suffer from this would be the condi guardian and the nerf could be negated by enhancing a bit the duration of one of it’s burning source (most likely improving virtue of justice passive burn duration from 2 to 3s).

We all know sword is gonna get nerfed anyway for pvp reasons so this is fun and all but lets just agree that the devs don’t care about the result of our Revenant conversation.

#esports

That’s why I stopped posting lol. Roundabout argument.

The auto needs a nerf. Don’t really care if it gets compensated elsewhere or not as rev utility is good enough to keep it in the meta.

spoj.9672:

That’s why I stopped posting lol. Roundabout argument.

The auto needs a nerf. Don’t really care if it gets compensated elsewhere or not as rev utility is good enough to keep it in the meta.

Don’t you think that once they nerf revenant dps down to a certain break-even point, it will be better to just run a mesmer with commander gear to get the 100% boon duration? Maybe it’s better even already, since mesmers dps is so low anyway.
Concernig fury, a single druid can maintain perma fury with the tiger alone, he doesn’t even need to carry a warhorn. Three warriors can maintain perma fury, two would probably be enough with soi.

Lendruil.9061:

spoj.9672:

That’s why I stopped posting lol. Roundabout argument.

The auto needs a nerf. Don’t really care if it gets compensated elsewhere or not as rev utility is good enough to keep it in the meta.

Don’t you think that once they nerf revenant dps down to a certain break-even point, it will be better to just run a mesmer with commander gear to get the 100% boon duration? Maybe it’s better even already, since mesmers dps is so low anyway.
Concernig fury, a single druid can maintain perma fury with the tiger alone, he doesn’t even need to carry a warhorn. Three warriors can maintain perma fury, two would probably be enough with soi.

No other profession can buff boon duration or ferocity. It’s enough for the revenant to be desired.
And this even if revenant wasn’t a beast at CC, had usefull combo and combo field utility… etc.

Not rly the CC can be handled by other professions the ferocity is by far not enough to make it viable. So literally the only thing which makes it viable is the good dps while giving some good support like your mentioned boon duration. If the dps gets bad tho you might aswell swap some pieces to commander on mesmer and get rid of a revenant. Most of the teamcomps are alrdy only using 1rev. The only profession which should get nerfed is condi warrior since its just kittened op. But if you look at the history of nerfes they will either not care, since warrior is bad in pvp, or they will destroy condi war completely which is not that good either tbh. Let’s just hope they find a ballance in nerfing condi war.

Pretty sure commander gear doesnt make up 50% boon duration. And last i checked you dont count each class utility separately. Its the combo of useful things rev brings that will keep it in the meta…

Who needs protection, who needs might with warrior, who needs regen, fury is okayish but can be handled by condi wars/tiger pet of druid. CC is nice but you loose alot of DPS if you go staff and the CC can be handled by other classes aswell for example Headbutt. 50% that’s a quite good and unique buff so that one is good. The DPS is fine but not so good if you AA only also as a power class Tempest is way stronger. There is no combo of usefull things tbh. A good rev would even use only 2 facets in glint to get the trait while being over 50% energy on swap for more DPS.

EDIT: the combo atm is a bit of usefull buffs with good DPS. Without the DPS rev is just to weak.

People keep talking as this is a Berzerker elite spec issue, but it’s not.

It’s rather simple, Burning as a condition is way to good relative to the other conditions like bleed/poison/confusion/torment.

And so, classes with the best burning access also tend to make the best condi classes by far.

Just nerf burning and put some of that damage back into bleeding/poison/confusion/torment.

PvE class DPS balance in this game is still terrible and will continue to be, anyways. They only balance every other 4-6 months and at best they are slight tweaks, because they won’t split PvP/PvE balance.

PvE balance hasn’t even been done for over 3 years, why are people expecting any better now.

Look when zerker builds reigned. The difference between an ele/thief/warrior/engineer and ranger/mesmer/necro were vast. Of the ranger/mesmer/necro trio, only the necro got kind of a fix in their elite specs.

Mesmers and rangers are still kitten DPS classes by comparison, and instead their elite spec pushed them to the niche roles of buffbot and healbot respectively.

Look at classes autoattack DPS differences for kitten’s sake, they’ve done nothing to fix the crappy autoattacks because they won’t split PvE from PvP. Mesmer autos still suck because of pvp whine. Necro axe auto didn’t get buffed to be on par with other classes’s ranged weapons, because of PvP reasons according to Robert Gee.

This game will be a joke of a balance state so long as they refuse to split PvE/PvP, balance autoattack damage numbers, and implement anemic balance tweaks drowned out by tool tip polish on such a long wait between balance patches.

BlackDragon.3752:

Who needs protection, who needs might with warrior, who needs regen, fury is okayish but can be handled by condi wars/tiger pet of druid. CC is nice but you loose alot of DPS if you go staff and the CC can be handled by other classes aswell for example Headbutt. 50% that’s a quite good and unique buff so that one is good. The DPS is fine but not so good if you AA only also as a power class Tempest is way stronger. There is no combo of usefull things tbh. A good rev would even use only 2 facets in glint to get the trait while being over 50% energy on swap for more DPS.

EDIT: the combo atm is a bit of usefull buffs with good DPS. Without the DPS rev is just to weak.

Agreed…the rev haters are just too short sighted and single minded. They are just so focused on finding a way to nerf the class they don’t like. Its illogical to nerf the dps of a class that isn’t doing anywhere near the most dps. Its short sighted and narrow minded to ignore the design of the herald itself…that the facet passives are extremely situational…based on what you already have in the party/raid. You don’t have all the facet passives active at the same time…you turn on what your party/raid is missing. Wasting all your energy on maintaining buffs that are already present is stupid. The only pairing where using FoN (boon duration) is even relevant is when you are grouped with a Chronomancer for perma quickness. That is just as described…a pairing/combination….not available in every group. Not a standalone reason to have a herald in your group. They need to wrap their minds around the fact that individual dps does matter. It matters slightly less for us in the presence of a Chronomancer, but it still matters. It matters more for us and for groups in the absence of a Chronomancer. So this nerf they are crying for…would essentially make us unwanted in any group without a Chronomancer. I know I don’t want to bring sub par dps into a group when I have options for dps that is up to par. I don’t get this logic of crying for a dps nerf for a class not doing top dps…that’s anti logic.

ODB.6891:

BlackDragon.3752:

Who needs protection, who needs might with warrior, who needs regen, fury is okayish but can be handled by condi wars/tiger pet of druid. CC is nice but you loose alot of DPS if you go staff and the CC can be handled by other classes aswell for example Headbutt. 50% that’s a quite good and unique buff so that one is good. The DPS is fine but not so good if you AA only also as a power class Tempest is way stronger. There is no combo of usefull things tbh. A good rev would even use only 2 facets in glint to get the trait while being over 50% energy on swap for more DPS.

EDIT: the combo atm is a bit of usefull buffs with good DPS. Without the DPS rev is just to weak.

Agreed…the rev haters are just too short sighted and single minded. They are just so focused on finding a way to nerf the class they don’t like. Its illogical to nerf the dps of a class that isn’t doing anywhere near the most dps. Its short sighted and narrow minded to ignore the design of the herald itself…that the facet passives are extremely situational…based on what you already have in the party/raid. You don’t have all the facet passives active at the same time…you turn on what your party/raid is missing. Wasting all your energy on maintaining buffs that are already present is stupid. The only pairing where using FoN (boon duration) is even relevant is when you are grouped with a Chronomancer for perma quickness. That is just as described…a pairing/combination….not available in every group. Not a standalone reason to have a herald in your group. They need to wrap their minds around the fact that individual dps does matter. It matters slightly less for us in the presence of a Chronomancer, but it still matters. It matters more for us and for groups in the absence of a Chronomancer. So this nerf they are crying for…would essentially make us unwanted in any group without a Chronomancer. I know I don’t want to bring sub par dps into a group when I have options for dps that is up to par. I don’t get this logic of crying for a dps nerf for a class not doing top dps…that’s anti logic.

Don’t think either burnzerker or herald should have their damage touched.
The raid balance looks pretty good to me.
Some classes could be brought up a bit more and it would be perfect.

Still, kind of wondering about that anti logic you are talking about…

I find it kind of weird that anyone would only consider nerfing something if the class outdoes all other classes in this one aspect. That is so short sighted.

Just as an example (not any classes in particular):

class A: class B:
Damage: 80% Damage: 100%
Defense: 80% Defense: 60%
Healing: 50% Healing: 20%
Utility: 70% Utility: 10%

or something like this

class A: class B:
Damage: 70% Damage: 30%
Defense: 70% Defense: 50%
Healing: 70% Healing: 100%
Utility: 70% Utility: 10%

Is class B supposed to have the damage/healing nerfed because it is the only class in the game that can do that 100%?
I’d consider class A to be much more powerful and maybe in the need of some rebalancing. Maybe that is just me.

Henry.5713:

ODB.6891:

BlackDragon.3752:

Who needs protection, who needs might with warrior, who needs regen, fury is okayish but can be handled by condi wars/tiger pet of druid. CC is nice but you loose alot of DPS if you go staff and the CC can be handled by other classes aswell for example Headbutt. 50% that’s a quite good and unique buff so that one is good. The DPS is fine but not so good if you AA only also as a power class Tempest is way stronger. There is no combo of usefull things tbh. A good rev would even use only 2 facets in glint to get the trait while being over 50% energy on swap for more DPS.

EDIT: the combo atm is a bit of usefull buffs with good DPS. Without the DPS rev is just to weak.

Agreed…the rev haters are just too short sighted and single minded. They are just so focused on finding a way to nerf the class they don’t like. Its illogical to nerf the dps of a class that isn’t doing anywhere near the most dps. Its short sighted and narrow minded to ignore the design of the herald itself…that the facet passives are extremely situational…based on what you already have in the party/raid. You don’t have all the facet passives active at the same time…you turn on what your party/raid is missing. Wasting all your energy on maintaining buffs that are already present is stupid. The only pairing where using FoN (boon duration) is even relevant is when you are grouped with a Chronomancer for perma quickness. That is just as described…a pairing/combination….not available in every group. Not a standalone reason to have a herald in your group. They need to wrap their minds around the fact that individual dps does matter. It matters slightly less for us in the presence of a Chronomancer, but it still matters. It matters more for us and for groups in the absence of a Chronomancer. So this nerf they are crying for…would essentially make us unwanted in any group without a Chronomancer. I know I don’t want to bring sub par dps into a group when I have options for dps that is up to par. I don’t get this logic of crying for a dps nerf for a class not doing top dps…that’s anti logic.

Don’t think either burnzerker or herald should have their damage touched.
The raid balance looks pretty good to me.
Some classes could be brought up a bit more and it would be perfect.

Still, kind of wondering about that anti logic you are talking about…

I find it kind of weird that anyone would only consider nerfing something if the class outdoes all other classes in this one aspect. That is so short sighted.

Just as an example (not any classes in particular):

class A: class B:
Damage: 80% Damage: 100%
Defense: 80% Defense: 60%
Healing: 50% Healing: 20%
Utility: 70% Utility: 10%

or something like this

class A: class B:
Damage: 70% Damage: 30%
Defense: 70% Defense: 50%
Healing: 70% Healing: 100%
Utility: 70% Utility: 10%

Is class B supposed to have the damage/healing nerfed because it is the only class in the game that can do that 100%?
I’d consider class A to be much more powerful and maybe in the need of some rebalancing. Maybe that is just me.

I agree with you that class A appears to be more powerful in both scenarios…primarily because the utility of class B needs to be improved in both scenarios.

ODB.6891:

I agree with you that class A appears to be more powerful in both scenarios…primarily because the utility of class B needs to be improved in both scenarios.

Thanks to competitive PVE records/tournaments we have kinda proven the theory that specialists are better than jack of all trades in regards to min/maxed parties. Engie is the classic 70/70/70/70 class in your example with ele being the low utility 100% dps. Which one proved to be more popular in record runs and tournaments? Ele by far.

NikeEU.7690:

ODB.6891:

I agree with you that class A appears to be more powerful in both scenarios…primarily because the utility of class B needs to be improved in both scenarios.

Thanks to competitive PVE records/tournaments we have kinda proven the theory that specialists are better than jack of all trades in regards to min/maxed parties. Engie is the classic 70/70/70/70 class in your example with ele being the low utility 100% dps. Which one proved to be more popular in record runs and tournaments? Ele by far.

Refreshing boons, best healer in the game, 20 stacks of might, pera fury, aura sharing, infinite fire fields… darn ele’s and their lack of utility!

ZudetGambeous.9573:

NikeEU.7690:

ODB.6891:

I agree with you that class A appears to be more powerful in both scenarios…primarily because the utility of class B needs to be improved in both scenarios.

Thanks to competitive PVE records/tournaments we have kinda proven the theory that specialists are better than jack of all trades in regards to min/maxed parties. Engie is the classic 70/70/70/70 class in your example with ele being the low utility 100% dps. Which one proved to be more popular in record runs and tournaments? Ele by far.

Refreshing boons, best healer in the game, 20 stacks of might, pera fury, aura sharing, infinite fire fields… darn ele’s and their lack of utility!

If your ele is doing all that then they certainly aren’t a dps ele…and gl blasting fire fields now guards want their symbols up, seeds from druids, chrono wells etc etc.

Just like to confirm metabattle is bad.

It’s not worth the time trying to post the current good builds since you’d have to spend dozens of hours arguing with spreadsheet nerds about how their math is wrong, just to get any edits done.

It’s not because they say that your venom share build isn’t optimal that you have to say that metabattle is “bad”. Why would you try to post your build if you think the website is bad

OrionXnAsh.3064:

It’s not because they say that your venom share build isn’t optimal that you have to say that metabattle is “bad”. Why would you try to post your build if you think the website is bad

Venomshare is so 2 months ago. It’s all about the kidney bean necro now.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

NikeEU.7690:

ODB.6891:

I agree with you that class A appears to be more powerful in both scenarios…primarily because the utility of class B needs to be improved in both scenarios.

Thanks to competitive PVE records/tournaments we have kinda proven the theory that specialists are better than jack of all trades in regards to min/maxed parties. Engie is the classic 70/70/70/70 class in your example with ele being the low utility 100% dps. Which one proved to be more popular in record runs and tournaments? Ele by far.

Refreshing boons, best healer in the game, 20 stacks of might, pera fury, aura sharing, infinite fire fields… darn ele’s and their lack of utility!

Best healer? What are you smoking. 20 stacks of might? Revenant and Mesmer already got might and fury covered. Auras beside frost are not that good in PvE, and who needs the infinite fire fields when might is taken care of already.

Ele’s have redundant utility, not exclusive utility like Revenant facets and Assassin’s Presence or Spotter or Empower Allies or Alacrity or Quickness sharing or boon strip or reflection/absorption. Their utility is easily replaced, and if their DPS is ever not the top they’ll just be replaced by the highest DPS class with exclusive utility and without the downside of 10k base hp and light armor.

What’s more, you seem to not realize the fundamental difference between DPS, utility/support, defense, and healing.

Of all those mentioned above, ONLY DPS is never superfluous. You bring only enough utility/healing/defense as needed to not die in the encounter, but after reaching that threshold you maximize DPS. Look at records and optimized runs, they always aim to cut defense to gain offense.

And not just this game. WoW, Wildstar, FFXIV all these games with far superior raiding scenes and encounter design, and it’s the same. Teams look to cut tank/healers and add more DPS, and encourage their healers/tanks to find opportunities to DPS if not equip some DPS off pieces once they get comfortable with the encounter.

In any game where there’s an HP pool that needs to be depleted, the most important element will be damage. Damage reduces kill times, reducing windows of error, pushing difficult phases faster or skipping them altogether. A team that increasingly stacks damage improves its time and encounter experience. A team that cuts on its damage output finds a longer encounter with more chances to be overwhelmed.

On the topic of Herald replacing PS, I don’t think I’ve seen anyone mention Shared Empowerment for might stacking. Although sigil of air is meta, I’ve never been that impressed with it, so I keep two axes for the rev. One with air and one with strength. Food is also easy to swap to bountiful sharpening stones and golden dumplings instead steaks. Food/sigil let you proc SE every~ second instead of every 3 which gets about ~14 might without FoS. With that combo and either signet of inspiration from the mesmer or just an ele fire overload, that’s decent might for the group without a warrior needing to go tactics. Keeping FoS maintained gets you to basically to 25.

While you lose the >50% swap damage, does it seem that far fetched to for this combo to be worth it? Lose sigil of air, revenant food, and empower allies BUT your warrior doesn’t need to take the huge DPS loss of tactics, or maybe just not bring a warrior in that subgroup.

Or even, if a subgroup looks like Chrono, Herald and 3 burnzerkers (hey, I’m on topic), 3 FGJ (with 100 condi dmg bonus) means that fury and ~12 might are covered. Why not maintain FoS instead?

Zenith.7301:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

NikeEU.7690:

ODB.6891:

I agree with you that class A appears to be more powerful in both scenarios…primarily because the utility of class B needs to be improved in both scenarios.

Thanks to competitive PVE records/tournaments we have kinda proven the theory that specialists are better than jack of all trades in regards to min/maxed parties. Engie is the classic 70/70/70/70 class in your example with ele being the low utility 100% dps. Which one proved to be more popular in record runs and tournaments? Ele by far.

Refreshing boons, best healer in the game, 20 stacks of might, pera fury, aura sharing, infinite fire fields… darn ele’s and their lack of utility!

Best healer? What are you smoking. 20 stacks of might? Revenant and Mesmer already got might and fury covered. Auras beside frost are not that good in PvE, and who needs the infinite fire fields when might is taken care of already.

Ele’s have redundant utility, not exclusive utility like Revenant facets and Assassin’s Presence or Spotter or Empower Allies or Alacrity or Quickness sharing or boon strip or reflection/absorption. Their utility is easily replaced, and if their DPS is ever not the top they’ll just be replaced by the highest DPS class with exclusive utility and without the downside of 10k base hp and light armor.

What’s more, you seem to not realize the fundamental difference between DPS, utility/support, defense, and healing.

Of all those mentioned above, ONLY DPS is never superfluous. You bring only enough utility/healing/defense as needed to not die in the encounter, but after reaching that threshold you maximize DPS. Look at records and optimized runs, they always aim to cut defense to gain offense.

And not just this game. WoW, Wildstar, FFXIV all these games with far superior raiding scenes and encounter design, and it’s the same. Teams look to cut tank/healers and add more DPS, and encourage their healers/tanks to find opportunities to DPS if not equip some DPS off pieces once they get comfortable with the encounter.

In any game where there’s an HP pool that needs to be depleted, the most important element will be damage. Damage reduces kill times, reducing windows of error, pushing difficult phases faster or skipping them altogether. A team that increasingly stacks damage improves its time and encounter experience. A team that cuts on its damage output finds a longer encounter with more chances to be overwhelmed.

It’s almost like you didn’t even read what the conversation was about and just wanted to hear yourself type for 10 minutes. lol better luck next time I guess!

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

Although sigil of air is meta, I’ve never been that impressed with it

Adding about 1.5k dps is less impressive than adding unnecessary extra Might stacks? I think people are over-buffing in general, I think if you have a group with a Chronomancer using SOI and golden fried dumplings there is a pretty good chance you have plenty of Might without adding silly things like Sigil of strength.

Or stacking like 3-4 revs when you have 2ps.
??? uai.

NikeEU.7690:

Adding about 1.5k dps is less impressive than adding unnecessary extra Might stacks? I think people are over-buffing in general, I think if you have a group with a Chronomancer using SOI and golden fried dumplings there is a pretty good chance you have plenty of Might without adding silly things like Sigil of strength.

Using golden fried dumblings over seaweed sallad is a much bigger dps loss than sigil of strength over sigil of air though.

The way I interpreted previous commentor was how revenant would fare on providing might alone without any PS warriors. In which case I think sigil of strength is a viable option since there will be times where might will be below 25 even with FoN and SOI from the mesmer.

I mentioned multiple sigils and foods in my inventory because I am conscious of over buffing. I’ll try keep my argument simple: Which situation is better to fill two party slots?

1) Rev+Sigil of Strength with a bunrzerker?
2) Rev +Sigil of Air with a PSEA warrior?

The group loses ~1.5k sigil of air dps and empower allies in 1) but the warrior has much better personal DPS. Given the initial point of this thread is that “burnzerker does 40% more deeps,” I don’t play warrior enough to know where exactly the numbers are, but I’m leaning towards PSEA warriors shouldn’t be brought to raids.

And if there are 3 burnzerkers+herald+chrono, is it worth it to bring FGJ and Deep Strike (150 condi dmg) and have the herald use FoS instead of FoD?

Basically, why are people talking about PSEA at all in raids?

Basically, why are people talking about PSEA at all in raids?

Because there are still people that find funny to have 2 PSEA warrior buffing each other at melee range while player that have to do their job at range (green circle) are virtually naked .

Thanks to competitive PVE records/tournaments we have kinda proven the theory that specialists are better than jack of all trades in regards to min/maxed parties. Engie is the classic 70/70/70/70 class in your example with ele being the low utility 100% dps. Which one proved to be more popular in record runs and tournaments? Ele by far.

If you think that the elementalist is low utility 100% dps then for sure you don’t understand this game at all. With just a shout an ele grant can you : regen, protection, swiftness, vigor, fury, some heal, projectile pretection…etc. That is just for shout. Base line, the elementalist also have fire fields that they use ad nauseum, descent damage, soft and hard cc, blast finisher, debuff… Ele are always tons of utility! Beside, I’m sure that the pvp crew would be hurt by this 100% dps statement since their moto is “We need more damage, we are only viable as bunker and we can’t kill anything!”

If you really have to qualify a profession as a low utility, 100% DPS then you gotta look at thief or necromancer which lack those boons that you disdain this much. Yes those 2 professions are focused on dps with laughable utilities in PvE (outside of the gimmicky stealth which only use is skipping mobs). Does any group want to stack necro or thieve? No.

When you got mechanisms that need your party to split, lacking professions that have the possibility to grant might to each sub group make your global DPS drop by half and it’s the same for the global survivability (regen and protection). Simply put, boons are very important as utility. And being able to overboon is better than lacking boons.

At the moment we got professions that simply dominate due to personnal DPS but also the ability to support their party.
- Burnzerker do not want fury from outside source than themself, it’s a loss of dps for them. Good thing is that with their fury they also grant might.
- Herald do not need to even sweat to support their allies and they got an auto attack which is so strong that using any other skill would be a dps loss.

Mesmers are in a different spot. They provide unique utility that no other class can match and some of these utility are certainly not intended. At the moment they are not used for there ability to bypass some mechanic and that’s an issue.

So yeah, there is a need for a balance patch that address PvE imbalance… (Feel like a joke since this is something that have been said over and over since game launch while Anet strictly balance around PvP)

Dadnir.5038:

If you think that the elementalist is low utility 100% dps then for sure you don’t understand this game at all. With just a shout an ele grant can you : regen, protection, swiftness, vigor, fury, some heal, projectile pretection…etc. That is just for shout. Base line, the elementalist also have fire fields that they use ad nauseum, descent damage, soft and hard cc, blast finisher, debuff… Ele are always tons of utility! Beside, I’m sure that the pvp crew would be hurt by this 100% dps statement since their moto is “We need more damage, we are only viable as bunker and we can’t kill anything!”

If you really have to qualify a profession as a low utility, 100% DPS then you gotta look at thief or necromancer which lack those boons that you disdain this much. Yes those 2 professions are focused on dps with laughable utilities in PvE (outside of the gimmicky stealth which only use is skipping mobs). Does any group want to stack necro or thieve? No.

Tell me, is redundant utility really better than no utility at all? It’s not that the ele gets all this utility for free. Giving the party prot, reg, heals etc. like you described hurts the ele’s dps a lot.

Is there any tempest that do not take Invigorating torrent or Element Bastion ? ->here for the heal/regen/vigor.

I understand that taking Zephyr boon instead of Ferocious wind in Air is a personal DPS loss but if it grant to your teammate some needed boons is this really a DPS loss for your party?

Again taking Elemental shielding over Serrated stone in Earth is a personnal DPS loss but if it prevent one ally from going done don’t you think that this dps loss is ok?

The problem is that you look only at personnal DPS while disregarding group support. Profession that lack support (or have support that is bypassed by the mechanics) have no place in the meta. And that’s what happen to the thief, the necromancer or even in a lesser extent to the guardian. This has been a reality for years already because boons are what make your party sturdy and hard hitting.

Let assume a 30k dps ele, you lose roughly 6-7% dps. which mean that you’ll do 28k dps instead. That ain’t a huge loss at all.

NB.: Now, if you’re gonna break a record it’s better to min-max every boon source as well. But for any lambda group it’s certainly better to have more boons than needed.

Dadnir.5038:

Is there any tempest that do not take Invigorating torrent or Element Bastion ? ->here for the heal/regen/vigor.

I understand that taking Zephyr boon instead of Ferocious wind in Air is a personal DPS loss but if it grant to your teammate some needed boons is this really a DPS loss for your party?

Again taking Elemental shielding over Serrated stone in Earth is a personnal DPS loss but if it prevent one ally from going done don’t you think that this dps loss is ok?

The problem is that you look only at personnal DPS while disregarding group support. Profession that lack support (or have support that is bypassed by the mechanics) have no place in the meta. And that’s what happen to the thief, the necromancer or even in a lesser extent to the guardian. This has been a reality for years already because boons are what make your party sturdy and hard hitting.

Let assume a 30k dps ele, you lose roughly 6-7% dps. which mean that you’ll do 28k dps instead. That ain’t a huge loss at all.

NB.: Now, if you’re gonna break a record it’s better to min-max every boon source as well. But for any lambda group it’s certainly better to have more boons than needed.

You realize that there is a 10% modifier hidden in the master level in tempest? And you also realize that the aura heal only works if you actually trait for aurashare, except for the shout auras? And you shouldn’t even trait earth in the first place as dps tempest. You have the healer for the heals, and in the parties i am running, this one healer is enough to keep the party alive, everything the ele would do as “hybrid-support-dmg” is redundant and just hurts the teams overall dps.

Dadnir.5038:

Is there any tempest that do not take Invigorating torrent or Element Bastion ? ->here for the heal/regen/vigor.

I understand that taking Zephyr boon instead of Ferocious wind in Air is a personal DPS loss but if it grant to your teammate some needed boons is this really a DPS loss for your party?

Again taking Elemental shielding over Serrated stone in Earth is a personnal DPS loss but if it prevent one ally from going done don’t you think that this dps loss is ok?

The problem is that you look only at personnal DPS while disregarding group support. Profession that lack support (or have support that is bypassed by the mechanics) have no place in the meta. And that’s what happen to the thief, the necromancer or even in a lesser extent to the guardian. This has been a reality for years already because boons are what make your party sturdy and hard hitting.

Let assume a 30k dps ele, you lose roughly 6-7% dps. which mean that you’ll do 28k dps instead. That ain’t a huge loss at all.

NB.: Now, if you’re gonna break a record it’s better to min-max every boon source as well. But for any lambda group it’s certainly better to have more boons than needed.

Yeah I don’t take any of the trait or trait line you mentioned, in fact I don’t take defensive trait at all except eye of the storm trait because there is nothing else to take it. I already have competent teammates and a designated healer and dodges to compensate for my mistake. Guess what? People focus on personal dps because most groups have already figured out the roles such as healer/tank. After that it all comes down to personal skill, and since we have dodging and many boons coming for us passively from revenant and ps warrior what could you ask for more?

If you have to rely on vigor/energy sigil/protection for majority of the fight while playing dps role then your positioning and skill level is subpar or maybe you should get better teammates. Gorseval’s retal during his phase? Don’t attack him with ice bow 4 until his breakbar goes fully down or ask your teammates to cc more. Getting killed by Sabetha autos? Again either tell your druid or someone to step away from the group, ask your revenant for protection and learn to position yourself behind the boss. Vale Guardian attack during split? You’ll be pulling both green and blue together anyway so it all comes down to your druid’s awareness.

Group support is already there, in fact having 2 revs when you can have burnzerker can be overkill on fury. The classes you mentioned are doing perfectly fine if you aren’t going for record kill. What you are covering right now shows either lack of your skill, very little understanding of gw2 combat system in pve/raid, and possibly incompetent teammates. While I do agree that there are some situations that favor group dps by sacrificing personal dps such as revenants using staff 5 for breakbars that is very minor and can be addressed through player skill/bringing different professions.

Dadnir.5038:

Is there any tempest that do not take Invigorating torrent or Element Bastion ? ->here for the heal/regen/vigor.

I don’t know any dps or raid tempest (either personally or suggested build from a well known guild) that takes that outside of maybe an over the top tank. So no you’re wrong here.

Dadnir.5038:

I understand that taking Zephyr boon instead of Ferocious wind in Air is a personal DPS loss but if it grant to your teammate some needed boons is this really a DPS loss for your party?

Or you could get those revenants to stop being lazy with the fury and provide it to everyone at minimal cost. Besides its 5s of fury per shout, at most it has a 25% uptime but realistically none as I don’t have the room for it.

Dadnir.5038:

Again taking Elemental shielding over Serrated stone in Earth is a personnal DPS loss but if it prevent one ally from going done don’t you think that this dps loss is ok?

1. There aren’t any modifiers in earth so why are you going into earth?
2. I would rather my allys learn to dodge the very well telegraphed attacks.

Dadnir.5038:

The problem is that you look only at personnal DPS while disregarding group support. Profession that lack support (or have support that is bypassed by the mechanics) have no place in the meta. And that’s what happen to the thief, the necromancer or even in a lesser extent to the guardian. This has been a reality for years already because boons are what make your party sturdy and hard hitting.

Let assume a 30k dps ele, you lose roughly 6-7% dps. which mean that you’ll do 28k dps instead. That ain’t a huge loss at all.

NB.: Now, if you’re gonna break a record it’s better to min-max every boon source as well. But for any lambda group it’s certainly better to have more boons than needed.

Your problem is you’re not looking at it from a team building. I have a PS war so might is covered. I have a rev so that’s fury and most of the vuln covered too. I have a guard in most dungeons and fractals so that’s on the spot healing and aegis/prot covered. In raids I usually have a chrono covering quickness and alacrity boosts and a healer (usually Druid) covering the on the spot heals.

What else do I need other than classes with high dps assuming people are not incompetent and can figure out “stand on the other side to the tank” and “dodge the large attack with the large animation”

Staff ele does exceptional damage on big targets, run an actual dps build (fire: all top, air: bottom, top, top, tempest: top, bottom, bottom) instead of that earth air tempest PvP build and you will see.

You know, it’s kinda cute to see all these random people coming in to tell one of the guys who cleared Vale in less than an hour and part of a cross-game top raiding guild that they don’t understand ele if they think eles are a low utility class.

It’s so adorably but hopelessly clueless. And the lack of official support for metrics has allowed these people to flourish.

Zenith.7301:

You know, it’s kinda cute to see all these random people coming in to tell one of the guys who cleared Vale in less than an hour and part of a cross-game top raiding guild that they don’t understand ele if they think eles are a low utility class.

It’s so adorably but hopelessly clueless. And the lack of official support for metrics has allowed these people to flourish.

Most people aren’t saying ele has low utility, they’re saying the utility that an ele brings is redundant as other classes can do it without sacrificing damage. I know full well an ele can give permenant prot, fury, regen, swiftness and vigor to 5 people. I know it can be a fantastic tank and healer and pretty much face tank most bosses.

What is the need to though when you have a herald that can supply the important aspects of that and boss mechanics which mean most people will very rarely get hit so long as they have good positioning and awareness? Why should the ele sacrifice its dps when other classes can fulfill that role with less loss of personal dps while maintaining their utility?