Guild Wars 2

fixing thread

Longbow…
Well i have one for Cart in SE p3 and for pvp. outside that, mah brotha, your 1handed sword would help a lot more.

I don’t hate rangers because they are bad for min maxing.

I hate rangers because too many of them are using bows.

I’m not bothered by bad dps. I’m bothered by terrible bow ranger dps.

xallever.1874:

Highest DPS in game is 3 eles + 1 warrior + 1 ranger with all the buffs active.

With the ranger DPS-ing higher than a guard on FGS, you can consider ranger in a speed run with these considerations in mind:

• Do you need a stealth?
• Do you need long stability?
• Is aegis rotation core to some of the significant encounters?
• Do you need long reflect uptime?
• Is Mesmer portal extremely useful?

If the answer is no to all of the questions above, I believe Ranger is the best 5th to bring.

Specific example of where to bring a Ranger: CoE p1.

Basically, if the dungeon requires a bit of reflect and Mesmer’s portal isn’t needed, Ranger should be the better choice in terms of DPS compared to a Guard or a Mes.

That’s what I thought too at first. The Frost and Spotter buff is pretty nice. But one you do the math, then you figure out that it break about even.

3 Ele + 1 Warrior + 1 Ranger is about equal to 4 Ele + 1 Warrior. And when you look at Ele and Ranger, I prefer to have more Elementalist. That’s more Frostbow and FGS for one things, but Elementalist can specialise way more than a Ranger can do. 1 Ele can be LH and stack might, while the staff Ele take care of Fury. 1 staff Ele can max their dps, while a another one take care of Vulnerability.

Personnally, at this point this doesn’t change much. I don’t mind play with any profession if they can play it reasonably right. But that show that even with their greatest advantage, the Ranger is at best irrelevant. That show how the profession need a serious revision.

Ele don’t do reflect :>

Iris Ng.9845:

Ele don’t do reflect :>

You casual, nothing is better than an aurashare staff earth camping ele.

Magnetic Aura and Magnetic Wave?

Wow, that reflect duration x.x! And let’s hope that all those ele stack and reflect in time.

Who needs reflect when you have swirling winds + fgs + icebow.

One thing I’ve seen brought up here is that the Pet gets excluded from Might stacking and so forth, and while that is technically true from a base level, I haven’t seen anyone mention Fortifying Bond. Basically, if you Might and Fury stack and the Ranger gets boons, the pet gets stacks of those boons too. Furthermore, it uses the Ranger’s might/boon duration, which means that if you tech 3 or 4 into that line you get 15%-20% duration, which stacks with Rune of Strength for 65% in the case of Might duration.

I’m not sure if Guang’s unlisted calculations factor in 25 might and fury perpetually on the pet, but that may make a difference.

With fortifying bond a ranger is having to use a trait to get boons applied to the pet. Perhaps it isn’t coincidental that the heavy armor classes, the favored dungeon classes, get the full benefit of all boons without using a trait to do so.

spoj.9672:

Who needs reflect when you have swirling winds + fgs + icebow.

Not gonna argue about that
My point is ele does not do everything the ranger does (unlike the previous claim). And we haven’t factored the skill level of this group comp yet to discredit the ranger. Like, I’ve come across some elitist pug that raised eyebrows at the ranger’s reputation while playing ele like crap. Ha!

6/5/0/3/0 is a solid DPS build for ranger. Everything is included in a bigger scheme.

For dungeons like AC, SE, CoE where basically every boss is killed with conjures I’d much rather have 3 eles, 1 ranger, 1 warrior instead of other comps.

Rising Dusk.2408:

I’m not sure if Guang’s unlisted calculations factor in 25 might and fury perpetually on the pet, but that may make a difference.

I don’t know for Guang. But I did the same math and I use full buff possible on the pet and on the ranger. That’s only to put everything in the same level. At the end, I end up with the same result as Guang.

Iris Ng.9845:

My point is ele does not do everything the ranger does (unlike the previous claim). And we haven’t factored the skill level of this group comp yet to discredit the ranger. Like, I’ve come across some elitist pug that raised eyebrows at the ranger’s reputation while playing ele like crap. Ha!

6/5/0/3/0 is a solid DPS build for ranger. Everything is included in a bigger scheme.

I don’t know you point at me or someone else, but I didn’t claim that Ele can do everything a ranger can do. I’m just saying if you look at the number, if you have to choose between an Ele or a Ranger as a 5th party member, the total dps won’t change that much. Personnally, I prefer an Elementalist than a Ranger, but that doesn’t mean that the ranger won,t bring something to the group. Anyway in the end, I don’t really care. As long as everybody do their part and play a decent build, i’m happy

xallever.1874:

Highest DPS in game is 3 eles + 1 warrior + 1 ranger with all the buffs active.

With the ranger DPS-ing higher than a guard on FGS, you can consider ranger in a speed run with these considerations in mind:

• Do you need a stealth?
• Do you need long stability?
• Is aegis rotation core to some of the significant encounters?
• Do you need long reflect uptime?
• Is Mesmer portal extremely useful?

If the answer is no to all of the questions above, I believe Ranger is the best 5th to bring.

Specific example of where to bring a Ranger: CoE p1.

Basically, if the dungeon requires a bit of reflect and Mesmer’s portal isn’t needed, Ranger should be the better choice in terms of DPS compared to a Guard or a Mes.

Engi: More vuln = more party DPS = better net DPS.
Ele: Higher personal DPS = higher party DPS = better net DPS.

If it’s strictly ranger vs. guardian with the ranger playing support or something, it’s a different story, but in general I don’t see ranger being used as a replacement for a support, rather as a raw DPS. I guess Whirling Defense could be used as a WoR backup for specific attacks (i.e. Lupi spray) and the bear, moa, or drake pet can be used to tank certain mobs, if it’s possible to make it take aggro.

Rising Dusk.2408:

One thing I’ve seen brought up here is that the Pet gets excluded from Might stacking and so forth, and while that is technically true from a base level, I haven’t seen anyone mention Fortifying Bond. Basically, if you Might and Fury stack and the Ranger gets boons, the pet gets stacks of those boons too. Furthermore, it uses the Ranger’s might/boon duration, which means that if you tech 3 or 4 into that line you get 15%-20% duration, which stacks with Rune of Strength for 65% in the case of Might duration.

I’m not sure if Guang’s unlisted calculations factor in 25 might and fury perpetually on the pet, but that may make a difference.

I used 25 might and 100% fury. Realistically it’s going to be about 15 might and 20-50% fury though depending on external sources, unless you’ve got a Phalanx warrior with a Warbanner. There’s simply a lack of long-duration fury applications for the pet since Fortifying Bond only gives you 3 seconds base , which isn’t even 4 seconds after boon duration buff. That means you need a fury application every 4 seconds on average.

Even when you assume full buffs on the pet by whatever means, it still scales extremely poorly due to their low base DPS (iirc the feline has a base DPS of about 700, which is really bad). Moreover, they don’t benefit well from buffs due to higher-than-normal base power (reduced marginal effect from might), high crit chance (reduced marginal effect from Fury), and lack of ferocity (reduced marginal effect from fury). A feline with 25 might/fury approximately doubles its damage, versus a player with 25 might/fury, banners, food, traits, etc. who will get something like 5-6x total multipliers.

Stooperdale.3560:

With fortifying bond a ranger is having to use a trait to get boons applied to the pet. Perhaps it isn’t coincidental that the heavy armor classes, the favored dungeon classes, get the full benefit of all boons without using a trait to do so.

It’s a minor trait you get passively when using the meta build, so yeah, there’s really no special investment needed.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

I used 25 might and 100% fury. Realistically it’s going to be about 15 might and 20-50% fury though depending on external sources, unless you’ve got a Phalanx warrior with a Warbanner. There’s simply a lack of long-duration fury applications for the pet since Fortifying Bond only gives you 3 seconds base , which isn’t even 4 seconds after boon duration buff. That means you need a fury application every 4 seconds on average.

Even when you assume full buffs on the pet by whatever means, it still scales extremely poorly due to their low base DPS (iirc the feline has a base DPS of about 700, which is really bad). Moreover, they don’t benefit well from buffs due to higher-than-normal base power (reduced marginal effect from might), high crit chance (reduced marginal effect from Fury), and lack of ferocity (reduced marginal effect from fury). A feline with 25 might/fury approximately doubles its damage, versus a player with 25 might/fury, banners, food, traits, etc. who will get something like 5-6x total multipliers.

That makes sense. I think ultimately you’re probably right, especially when you consider the pragmatic issues a Ranger faces like pet DPS being inconsistent due to AI, Frost Spirit downtime due to it being on CD after a specific encounter, Sword dodge challenges, and so on.

Still, I think the Ranger merits inclusion in specific speed runs if it is being used as an conjured weapon user with a small bit of practical reflection on the side. It isn’t being used for support, but is being used for pseudo-support with good conjured DPS. In this instance, the Ranger is better than a Guardian or Mesmer because of higher damage multipliers (and the pet, which is free DPS on top of the FGS/IB) and also because of the higher uptime Swiftness. Furthermore, it’s better than the Engi because of higher base DPS (in FGS scenarios maintaining 25 vuln isn’t that hard considering you’ve got an ele using FGS) and because the reason you’re even considering the Ranger is due to its reliable reflect, while the Engineer instead has only a 50% chance of getting one throwing Elixir-U.

Beyond that, I disagree with the specific mention in the OP that you should kick them from your groups regardless of what they use. I believe that for a speed clear (a true speed clear), you would tailor the team specifically based on the path you’re clearing. For pubs, which is the context the OP is worded to suggest, a skilled Ranger is still a boon to the group, and is still superior to the average pub, making it a good member to keep. In that vein, I don’t think this thread really tells us anything the pub players or speed clear groups didn’t already know. That said, some parts of it are interesting to discuss regardless, so rock on.

That’s my two cents.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Stooperdale.3560:

With fortifying bond a ranger is having to use a trait to get boons applied to the pet. Perhaps it isn’t coincidental that the heavy armor classes, the favored dungeon classes, get the full benefit of all boons without using a trait to do so.

It’s a minor trait you get passively when using the meta build, so yeah, there’s really no special investment needed.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

I used 25 might and 100% fury. Realistically it’s going to be about 15 might and 20-50% fury though depending on external sources, unless you’ve got a Phalanx warrior with a Warbanner. There’s simply a lack of long-duration fury applications for the pet since Fortifying Bond only gives you 3 seconds base , which isn’t even 4 seconds after boon duration buff. That means you need a fury application every 4 seconds on average.

Even when you assume full buffs on the pet by whatever means, it still scales extremely poorly due to their low base DPS (iirc the feline has a base DPS of about 700, which is really bad). Moreover, they don’t benefit well from buffs due to higher-than-normal base power (reduced marginal effect from might), high crit chance (reduced marginal effect from Fury), and lack of ferocity (reduced marginal effect from fury). A feline with 25 might/fury approximately doubles its damage, versus a player with 25 might/fury, banners, food, traits, etc. who will get something like 5-6x total multipliers.

That makes sense. I think ultimately you’re probably right, especially when you consider the pragmatic issues a Ranger faces like pet DPS being inconsistent due to AI, Frost Spirit downtime due to it being on CD after a specific encounter, Sword dodge challenges, and so on.

Still, I think the Ranger merits inclusion in specific speed runs if it is being used as an conjured weapon user with a small bit of practical reflection on the side. It isn’t being used for support, but is being used for pseudo-support with good conjured DPS. In this instance, the Ranger is better than a Guardian or Mesmer because of higher damage multipliers (and the pet, which is free DPS on top of the FGS/IB) and also because of the higher uptime Swiftness. Furthermore, it’s better than the Engi because of higher base DPS (in FGS scenarios maintaining 25 vuln isn’t that hard considering you’ve got an ele using FGS) and because the reason you’re even considering the Ranger is due to its reliable reflect, while the Engineer instead has only a 50% chance of getting one throwing Elixir-U.

Beyond that, I disagree with the specific mention in the OP that you should kick them from your groups regardless of what they use. I believe that for a speed clear (a true speed clear), you would tailor the team specifically based on the path you’re clearing. For pubs, which is the context the OP is worded to suggest, a skilled Ranger is still a boon to the group, and is still superior to the average pub, making it a good member to keep. In that vein, I don’t think this thread really tells us anything the pub players or speed clear groups didn’t already know. That said, some parts of it are interesting to discuss regardless, so rock on.

That’s my two cents.

The problem is that for a ranger to be worth taking over a guardian, you need a situation where::

1) 5 seconds of reflect is enough.
2) You don’t need aegis, protection, or blind.
3) Whatever you are reflecting can be safely reflected without interrupting your channel to avoid other non-projectile attacks.

Versus engineer:

1) You are already capped on vuln, both with and without FGS.
2) You need to max out damage on Fiery Rush specifically and it’s not important how much damage you’re getting from the non-FGS users otherwise.
3) If you are reflecting anything, it needs to be something that is worth reflecting over just blocking, and is something too fast that an engie can’t reflect with turret shields.

It’s just a very small list of situations.

Cmon guang, just give us an example where an engi is good already.

Ill do it for him. Nightmare tree in TA. But thats the only place.

Engi sucks there, compared to an additional ele.

The vuln on tree is the problem we had in our speedruns (vuln on crit gg). Engi would do better vuln than warrior or thief for the tree. Even with an extra icebow it doesnt improve the kill time that much. Ive witnessed the tree die almost as fast as in our record when having an engi and only 1 ele in the group (simply because the vuln was superior and 2 icebows and a meteor shower is enough). But the engi would be slower for the rest of the dungeon so its pointless taking one.

Well, Guang’s keyboard is sticky now.

Darox.8069:

Well, Guang’s keyboard is sticky now.

I feel dirty.

Dub.1273:

Cmon guang, just give us an example where an engi is good already.

Literally any boss that can’t be FGS’d, or any dungeon where you need stealth that isn’t Arah P3.

Unfortunately everything can be fgs’d or icebowed.

Unfortunately nothing that can’t be fgs’ed would promote taking an engi about an ele. Never. Ever. Nowhere. As for nightmare tree, if running 1 warrior 1 thief 3 eles or 1 warrior 1 thief 1 engi 2 eles, that would still be superior. Simply due to another icebow and metor shower killing tree before engi stacked 10 stacks of vuln.

It doesnt though. The double hit box + no unshakeable means engi insta vuln caps. And the engis aoe seems to be pretty good for the hitbox. If we had tweaked our builds for more non crit vuln then yeah it probably would be better. But the engi is definately very good on the tree. Theres no doubt about that.

Not saying it’s bad, just saying an ele is better.

Dub.1273:

Unfortunately nothing that can’t be fgs’ed would promote taking an engi about an ele. Never. Ever. Nowhere. As for nightmare tree, if running 1 warrior 1 thief 3 eles or 1 warrior 1 thief 1 engi 2 eles, that would still be superior. Simply due to another icebow and metor shower killing tree before engi stacked 10 stacks of vuln.

That would be an absurdly fast kill since engi can get to 10 stacks with just Grenade Barrage > any other Grenade,.

A single OMM will get you 10 stacks, instantly.

You would get 12 stacks from grenade barrage. and 6 from a single grenade throw. Double hit box.

OMM only hits one hit box.

Its all about conjure weapons! (kitten , it’s sad xD)

lordhidetora.3189:

I can’t believe this is an issue, lol.

Why would anyone pick a ranger if they don’t want to use a bow?

And yes, I can play with longbow on warrior, but why would I play bow on warrior when I can play an axe or a greatsword?

Just dodge roll/play smart/micro manage your pets, and avoid all groups that state “zerk only” and “lvl 80 zerk, ping gear,” and…oh…" ‘so and so’ AP needed + ping gear."

I avoid every single group like that..and sometimes, I just join one and start pinging clerics gear.

I love seeing it for CoF…because you know, god forbid it takes me 5 more minutes to do a dungeon. My game time is very valuable, and maybe those 5 minutes that I don’t spend in the dungeon, I will spend farming somewhere else in orr.

give me a break.

the pew pew is strong with this one

but hey, if you’re avoiding the zerk groups, play on and do what you want!

lordhidetora.3189:

maxinion.8396:

lordhidetora.3189:

I can’t believe this is an issue, lol.

Why would anyone pick a ranger if they don’t want to use a bow?

And yes, I can play with longbow on warrior, but why would I play bow on warrior when I can play an axe or a greatsword?

Just dodge roll/play smart/micro manage your pets, and avoid all groups that state “zerk only” and “lvl 80 zerk, ping gear,” and…oh…" ‘so and so’ AP needed + ping gear."

I avoid every single group like that..and sometimes, I just join one and start pinging clerics gear.

I love seeing it for CoF…because you know, god forbid it takes me 5 more minutes to do a dungeon. My game time is very valuable, and maybe those 5 minutes that I don’t spend in the dungeon, I will spend farming somewhere else in orr.

give me a break.

the pew pew is strong with this one

but hey, if you’re avoiding the zerk groups, play on and do what you want!

The pew pew is overwhelming. If I might add, it’s almost to the point where GW2 has just made it’s own sound file for when I use my ranger.

I could also easily take one of my alts…it’s about playing the game and having fun…not running around with a bunch of elitists people that question how you play the game every 5 minutes.

The problem with Elitists is they’re not playing the game the way it was meant to be played, as dictated by me. That’s why I join their LFG-advertised-Zerker only groups and troll them, in the name of defending the right to play how I want.

Come on guys! It’s about having fun and playing the way you want! Unless that way happens to be playing Zerker and seeking out other Zerker-geared players. Then that’s just rude and Elitist.

Hope you do realize it takes 0.5 seconds to click your name and /kick. You’re only wasting your own time.

lordhidetora.3189:

I love seeing it for CoF…because you know, god forbid it takes me 5 more minutes to do a dungeon. My game time is very valuable, and maybe those 5 minutes that I don’t spend in the dungeon, I will spend farming somewhere else in orr.

give me a break.

Reference to AC or CoF [ X ]
Bitter PHIW attitude [ X ]

Dwayna forbid indeed. Five more minutes in CoF is pretty much another CoF.

lordhidetora.3189:

I can’t believe this is an issue, lol.

Why would anyone pick a ranger if they don’t want to use a bow?

[snip]

I melee with my ranger.
I like it more than all my other 8 melee characters. Once you master the 1handed sword you attack and dodge at same time, its beautiful.
Fashion Meta > Meta > PHIW.

lordhidetora.3189:

That’s right, I better play this game like it’s my fulltime job. And by “PHIW,” I am guessing you mean “pew.” If so, pew pew. If not please enlighten me.

PHIW = Play How I Want, not pew pew.

lordhidetora.3189:

Saint.5647:

lordhidetora.3189:

I love seeing it for CoF…because you know, god forbid it takes me 5 more minutes to do a dungeon. My game time is very valuable, and maybe those 5 minutes that I don’t spend in the dungeon, I will spend farming somewhere else in orr.

give me a break.

Reference to AC or CoF [ X ]
Bitter PHIW attitude [ X ]

Dwayna forbid indeed. Five more minutes in CoF is pretty much another CoF.

That’s right, I better play this game like it’s my fulltime job. Edited after reading next post, ty for clarification. I play how I want, and I am effective. I res people, I put out decent damage (not close to the almighty warrior, but enough to help and make a difference), I don’t go around pressing 4 on LB when I see the rest of my party trying to burst something down, I make sure I don’t pull random mobs, and I don’t die on command. This is of course, once in a blue moon when I do dungeons on my ranger, because I’m scared of running into people like OP, even in causal PUGs for dungeons.

I’ve learned to just run them with my ele or guard, and people won’t say anything.

RSLongK.8961:

lordhidetora.3189:

I can’t believe this is an issue, lol.

Why would anyone pick a ranger if they don’t want to use a bow?

[snip]

I melee with my ranger.
I like it more than all my other 8 melee characters. Once you master the 1handed sword you attack and dodge at same time, its beautiful.
Fashion Meta > Meta > PHIW.

I love 1 handed sword on ranger. Honestly I love all weapons on ranger and I use them where I see fit. But, I guess I just like the “pew.”

This obviously doesn’t mean I sit there hitting 5 on longbow and then going back to auto attack when people are stacking in a dungeon.

I would rather have a ranger that knows what he is doing in a dungeon, than have a warrior that facetanks everything he sees with zerker gear and asks to be ressed every fight, or a guardian that spams virtues without having no clue what he is doing.

Why on earth would you put yourself out there trying to troll everyone, only to later fold up and become all defensive, trying to justify your playstyle to the internet? :P

“a guardian that spams virtues without having no clue what he is doing”

A guardian spamming F1 is usually a good thing.

Because when a good player making a good decisions is on par with a bad player making bad ones because one is playing a good class and one is playing a class that sucks, you have a class balance issue.

At this point, warrior DPS is like the baseline acceptable DPS, so yeah, it does pose a problem if you drop too far below it.

I’m under an impression that you consider warrior a class with the highest dps value.

lordhidetora.3189:

TKiller.6829:

I’m under an impression that you consider warrior a class with the highest dps value.

I thought this was the meta everyone compared DPS to.

Warriors have moderate dps. Thieves and Elementalists,and even Guardians in some situations, out dps them.

So if a ranger has even less dps than warrior… It’s really not very good.

lordhidetora.3189:

TKiller.6829:

I’m under an impression that you consider warrior a class with the highest dps value.

I thought this was the meta everyone compared DPS to.

It’s more like the average insofar as you can still say “Well I’m not the best but at least I can do as much as a warrior and the warrior doesn’t totally ruin everything”. Comparing to ele or something would be silly since they’re the best DPS by a wide margin so everyone else just looks bad by comparison.

lordhidetora.3189:

TKiller.6829:

I’m under an impression that you consider warrior a class with the highest dps value.

I thought this was the meta everyone compared DPS to.

No. If we’re referring to “speedruns” and what is “the most optimal” or what is “meta”, Warriors are basically there to provide banner buffs (which are very strong). Their DPS is nothing special.

lordhidetora.3189:

maxinion.8396:

lordhidetora.3189:

TKiller.6829:

I’m under an impression that you consider warrior a class with the highest dps value.

I thought this was the meta everyone compared DPS to.

Warriors have moderate dps. Thieves and Elementalists,and even Guardians in some situations, out dps them.

So if a ranger has even less dps than warrior… It’s really not very good.

After reading a bit on this topic, I will say fair enough.

But I still stand by my point that I would personally rather have a player that plays properly putting up sub-par DPS than one that doesn’t play properly.

This is dangerously close to the Flase Dilemma Falacy – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma . I’m pretty sure no one wants to play with someone who plays improperly. I’m pretty sure no one in the thread argued “I prefer to play with people who play improperly.” What was being argued was:

In the context of running a dungeon efficiently, and based on the development of the dungeon meta from 2013 to 2014 (more Eles instead of more Warriors), is the Ranger (a class that brings lower DPS than most other classes, and whose unique buffs consist of Spotter – which was indirectly nerfed thanks to the Ferocity change – and Frost Spirit) worth bringing over another Profession?

To answer to that question “I’d rather take a good player over a bad one” totally misses the question, entirely.

So based on the op, its due to buffs to other classes that ranger now has the lowest DPS and is useless in dungeons. Massive fail on the power creep by anet i would say.

I’ve never been kicked for being a ranger from a dungeon (and yes, I’ve done plenty of dungeons, solely as my ranger). Honestly, if someone is good with their profession they can deal plenty of DPS no matter what class they are. If someone can’t control their pet, that’s their own problem, not a problem with Rangers in general. Plus, I do plenty of DPS as a zerker frost/spirit ranger, and can easily stack 25 might (atleast for myself) by using Rampage as One and my river drake. ANY class can work well, if you’re getting kicked “for being a ranger” it’s probably just you :P

^ Everything Secret said-
Lack of brainpower is what gets a ranger booted most of the time; That goes for anyone/any class. I Looove my ranger to death, yes I know her faults but I do what I can to overcome what is still wrong with them & I’ve never had any complaints.

What is this “any class can do just as well if played properly” argument?
Truth is that rangers, necros and engis are worse than other professions.
What’s so painful on that, so that people continuously bring up such arguments. Back to gw1 I never see such complaints. Noone ever gets to the idea of arguing that it isn’t paragons, monks, warriors, dervishes and assassins that are not used in uw because of being bad in that content but rather the players playing improperly. Alright, most of those professions have uses in other sc’s or at least in urgoz/deep.