Guild Wars 2

Axias asked me in game if Sigil of Paralyzation in record runs vs Lupi is allowed. I told him the community would have to vote on it, and I could asked each guild leader I could find and make a vote, try to organize a big meeting or just make a thread here.

Let’s talk it out…

My personal opinions…

Pros: It allows us to see new things in record runs we never saw before. Keeping Lupi from swiping p2 or aoe life leech in p3 will speed up kill times

Cons: its obviously an unintended functionality and if anet was more on the ball they would patch it quickly.

Pros: it probably wouldn’t really have an effect on the records so no sense in banning something that isn’t a problem.

Cons: we have premptively banned things that arent yet problems like mini pets that are also obviously unintentional game mechanics.

Anyway, those are my thoughts what does the community think?

It could get out of hands fast. I’d be against ( for what’s my opinion is worth).

Quick question, what’s the point of commenting how it would effect a Lupi kill when we already allow the reflect gimping of that fight in record runs?

Using consecrated ground to one shot him (for shame) wasn’t banned because it was a specific thing for a specific boss right? Based on that precedent, I don’t think there’s any way you can justify banning a single specific sigil for a specific boss unless it allowed you to do something silly like do a million damage in 3 seconds.

Hi, I’m also mostly here to mention that oneshooting (why is it called that anyway? I’t not oneshooting…) is the lamest thing ever and should not be allowed in record runs.

For the sigil I don’t see a problem. If anything, timing interrupts and managing defiant stacks makes the fight more interresting.

To be honest, I don’t see a reason why this would be forbidden.

I’m with the other voices above — giving lupibro defiance would have far less impact than allowing wall of reflection tricks.

Allow the sigil of paralyzation. I see nothing wrong with it other than that he’s normally supposed to be immune to cc. It’s a good counter for bad RNG in record runs without bypassing the entire encounter.

I think its fine. I also think 1 shotting is fine. Adding pointless rules because something is considered lame defeats the whole point of a record.

I can understand gemstore consumables because they may not be available to everyone. And map glitching like hell would cause controversy. Im still of the opinion that the current rules are a bit too restrictive. They stopped the jumping over CoE doors and other similar tactics which actually made things quite interesting.

didn’t SC burst him in the middle with no gimmicky strats in their p3?

no need for any change here imo.

spoj.9672:

I think its fine. I also think 1 shotting is fine. Adding pointless rules because something is considered lame defeats the whole point of a record.

I can understand gemstore consumables because they may not be available to everyone. And map glitching like hell would cause controversity. Im still of the opinion that the current rules are a bit too restrictive. They stopped the jumping over CoE doors and other similar tactics which actually made things quite interesting.

I can agree with this. But, with the restrictions currently there, I think it’s lame that some things are allowed while others are not.

I’m ok with exploiting lupi, both with reflects and interrupts, both in pugs and in record runs.

As it’s simple game mechanics, I would allow it. We also interrupt other champs to skip certain moves!

I agree on using sigil of paralyzation , I don’t see it as an exploit but can we vote again on pushing lupi to wall and using reflects to one shot him (guard wall , mesm curtain). I think we should ban it from records and tournaments and I’m pretty sure I’m not the only one who wants that so I think a vote on this would be good o/.

Yes and please also ban using PI on dhuum in gw1.
?!?

Dub.1273:

Yes and please also ban using PI on dhuum in gw1.
?!?

No turtles!

Right! Healing spring is unintended exploit abuse.

Please ban deep freeze its lame. /s

Sounds like most people are for allowing it. unless someone wants to make a convincing case in favor of banning I think there is a general consensus.

kitten dub and his 1-shotting… maybe if you would stop treating Lupi like crap he would give you better RNG

What happens when Anet fixes the sigil? Are we going to wipe records that used it?

You really think they are going to fix it? Its been known for over a year. And it only effects one boss in a meaningful way.

You only wipe records when the times can no longer be realistically beaten. I can’t see how an arah record with that sigil being the only change wouldn’t be beatable.

Reflection is still at top of any Lupi speedkill. I see no problems with using the sigil.

I’m all for allowing it. If you want to burn a sigil on it just to interrupt GL, then that’s a tradeoff that should be allowed.

In my point of view every “working as intended” – skill should get forbidden.
But my opinion probably doesn’t matter.

one of my favorite skills in the game: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Earthbind

My vote is that this sigil should be allowed

My vote is that it shouldn’t be allowed. At least to me, when it says “immune” whenever you try to CC him, he should really be immune.

To add to what I said earlier. Why do we not allow jumping puzzle stuff in runs? Why do we not allow the double wall trick? It’s because it’s pretty obvious that it’s not intended, right? This one seems even more obvious, it says it won’t work, but it does…if the sigil said “will ignore immunities” sure, but it doesn’t.

That said I don’t disagree with spoj’s earlier post of letting things be free game.

Jumping puzzles and other exploits are just not allowed because the gw2 community is kitten when it comes to them. Pretty much every other games main speedrun categories allow for exploiting everything there is.

Exactly. I think people worry far too much about whats intended or not. If somethings unintended the devs should fix it. If they dont then we should be free to use it. After all a speedrun isnt “go as fast as you can within these constraints”. Its simply “go as fast as you can”. The only thing i am against is using third party programs and hacks for obvious reasons. We made compromises with rules because of the publicity we get and we thought it would be better to not have such controversial records. Unfortunately some paths like CoE have become quite boring because of that.

spoj.9672:

I think people worry far too much about whats intended or not. If somethings unintended the devs should fix it. If they dont then we should be free to use it.

And exactly this is the wrong way to think, imo.
Using unintended skills shouldn’t be justified for that reason alone because arenanet needs 2 years to finally fix sth.
Yes we are free to use it but this doesn’t make it better in any way.

You can disagree with it all you like. But being like this makes the gw2 speedclear community a bit of a joke compared to every other game. And as i said some stuff has gotten boring since the restrictive rules. Rules limit innovation. Sometimes they are necessary to foster competition but i really do think people go a bit too far in gw2.

For example there are several portal tactics that i have thought of that would make pretty linear dungeons a lot more exciting. But we cant do them because someone has to jump over a closed door (CoE and TA reference here) before it opens. Because we cant do that the portal is completely useless and tactics are a lot more stale.

Could things like jumping over the door in CoE get you banned? Bannable stuff seems like a pretty good place to draw the line.

I doubt it. Noone was banned when people were doing that for records before the rules changed. And noone was banned for doing the much more obvious arah jumping puzzles in records. Besides the doors are not even an exploit as such. You simply run up the sloped wall and use a leap to get through the gap in the top. You still have to open the door to trigger the next event so its not like anyone has skipped an event. Its purely used for portals and such to shorten the next run for the rest of the group etc.

I stream myself goating around in Arah all the time and have for over a year yet I’ve had devs watch my stream on numerous occasions without any ban threats.

They don’t care as long as you don’t do it for an ingame advantage over other players. For example if you were to skip Lupicus and try to sell the path for profit, they would probably ban you.

spoj.9672:

Rules limit innovation.

That’s not universally true. It could just as validly be argued that limitations encourage creative solutions.

hybrid.5027:

spoj.9672:

Rules limit innovation.

That’s not universally true. It could just as validly be argued that limitations encourage creative solutions.

True to a certain degree. But clearly not so much at the moment.

spoj.9672:

hybrid.5027:

spoj.9672:

Rules limit innovation.

That’s not universally true. It could just as validly be argued that limitations encourage creative solutions.

True to a certain degree. But clearly not so much at the moment.

How do you figure? FGS gets nerfed and records get faster. People start using mesmer portal tricks and double portal tricks in places never done before. This is all creativity. If you think that the well is dry of ways to improve current records I think you are severely mistaken.

I’m not sure why jumping over the door in COE is being held up as some example of amazing creativity and innovation being that we did it in a record run over a year and a half ago. And I fail to see what;s creative about using harpy feathers and hylek poison posts to get around having to put thought into your party composition.

That wasnt because of rules that was because of a change in balance. There would be so many more portal tricks we could do if the rules were revised. People were stuck with an fgs mindset so they didnt think to try portals in the places that are currently being done.

And i agree hylek poison and harpy feathers arent creative. Harpy feathers got nerfed anyway so that wont ever be a major problem ever again. I dont mind the consumable rule. Thats a case of improving the competition for the public and so on. Its the restrictions on minor jumps and door skips that annoys me.

Take sm64 without restrictions as an example. There has developed more new ideas on how to save time than there will ever be in any restricted case.

Restricted ruleset is like doing gw1 records but forbidding glitching enemies, forbidding hos and dc to change terrain, forbid taking quests before reapers attack, forbid basically anything. What would result is a kittenty boring thing that nobody would enjoy doing.

Dub.1273:

Take sm64 without restrictions as an example. There has developed more new ideas on how to save time than there will ever be in any restricted case.

Restricted ruleset is like doing gw1 records but forbidding glitching enemies, forbidding hos and dc to change terrain, forbid taking quests before reapers attack, forbid basically anything. What would result is a kittenty boring thing that nobody would enjoy doing.

The difference is that this was how it was in gw2 and it was so boring and unfun that everyone decided to change it to the current system. What works for one game doesn’t necessarily work for another.

From what I understand the gw1 SC scene refuses to require videos of their records and is satisfied with time stamps on screen shots. I wouldn’t brag about their progressiveness.

hybrid.5027:

Dub.1273:

Take sm64 without restrictions as an example. There has developed more new ideas on how to save time than there will ever be in any restricted case.

Restricted ruleset is like doing gw1 records but forbidding glitching enemies, forbidding hos and dc to change terrain, forbid taking quests before reapers attack, forbid basically anything. What would result is a kittenty boring thing that nobody would enjoy doing.

The difference is that this was how it was in gw2 and it was so boring and unfun that everyone decided to change it to the current system. What works for one game doesn’t necessarily work for another.

From what I understand the gw1 SC scene refuses to require videos of their records and is satisfied with time stamps on screen shots. I wouldn’t brag about their progressiveness.

The scene was so boring and unfun and that’s why it was changed? May I ask in what world you’ve been living in then? The whole thing was first divided into restricted and unrestricted when cryhards stepped up and people wanted to make those happy, showing unexploited runs. Well, greatly worked as even non exploits are seen as evil by those.

And for gw1 records, those started when there have not been a lot of recording software and barely anyone knew about those either. I suggested various times that videos shall now, where using hacks somehow found appreciation became normal, be requested and rules against hacks were made, but stupid moderators just kept approving nevertheless. Gw1 isn’t even closely as active as gw2 now. Back when it was, record competition was a lot heavier than here.

But what this whole thing adds to sigil of paralyzation or in favour of the restricted ruleset is unknown to me anyway. There’s literally no way why restrictions would make the scene more interesting and enhance new ways. When you have an array of 10 numbers and take three out, you now have less possibilities to mix them than you had before.

I think the division of restricted vs. unrestricted runs was one of the best solutions to these sorts of issues.

Unrestricted runs show us what is possible when the rules are thrown out the window and folks go for broke running as fast as they can.

Restricted runs show what is possible using “as-intended” mechanics.

It’s a nice solution to the disputes about these sorts of things. Obviously, we aren’t supposed to interrupt Lupicus, and it’s a bug in the sigil logic that enables this — so, restricted runs shouldn’t allow it. But those who want to use it may still do so in an unrestricted run.

Of course, reflect tricks still trump all.

Just posting to point out that it’s not necessarily cryhards that want the restricted ruleset and records around. I personally find it quite interesting to see clever strategies and tactics used to complete a run quickly without using questionable methods.

Lets look at how active records were prior to restricted rules and how active it was after. People vote with their feet. Barely anyone did records before the restricted rules and after the restricted rules barely anyone ever did an unrestricted run. In fact, the only unrestricted record I ever remember being posted was Keep Running doing a COE path.

If unrestricted rules were so popular and fun why did that format die? Why didn’t all the speed running guilds use it? The fact is it was unpopular and it died because no one was interested in those records and no guild that I am aware of had the least interest in them.

We would have done unrestricted if we had people to compete with. But there was a fault with the unrestricted ruleset. It didnt have the same starting rules as restricted (time starts when you move). Which kind of killed any hope for it. So we just went with where the timing rules made sense and where there was competition.

How popular would anything be if a label of basically “they’re cheating” was tagged to it?

Personally I just like seeing the variety of techniques people can use to complete things, that’s what interests me more than the race for the best time. I think many would agree that fighting to shave a few seconds off using the same strategies isn’t as entertaining as seeing new strategies. Not that this comment is really on topic, just saying.

spoj.9672:

We would have done unrestricted if we had people to compete with. But there was a fault with the unrestricted ruleset. It didnt have the same starting rules as restricted (time starts when you move). Which kind of killed any hope for it. So we just went with where the timing rules made sense and where there was competition.

It’s unrestricted… who cares when the timer starts… just exploit your way to the end and submit your record to be beaten by someone who can walk through walls or w/e.

I’m gonna laugh when unrestricted category gets added and no one uses it.

Most of the people labelling it cheating are the ones that already call restricted runs exploit fests.

The unrestricted ruleset could have been fun if it had timing rules which matched restricted and gw1. But dividing the community between different rulesets doesnt help. Its just a shame the community is so full of BHB’s.

The community approval of the restricted ruleset was nearly unanimous and the popularity is quite well proven. That’s all that really matters.