Guild Wars 2

Gee, do you ever talk to your guild leader?

Purple Miku.7032:

Gee, looks like someone’s feeling a little hostile since transferring to NA after getting booted.

No he didn’t get booted, he left because Boryd wouldn’t tell him how to kill Lupicus in 2 seconds.

So seems like some sort of a meeting to discuss rules and inform about gwscr changes might be good?

Wethospu.6437:

So seems like some sort of a meeting to discuss rules and inform about gwscr changes might be good?

I think that would be a safe assumption.

Element Two.7316:

Purple Miku.7032:

Gee, looks like someone’s feeling a little hostile since transferring to NA after getting booted.

No he didn’t get booted, he left because Boryd wouldn’t tell him how to kill Lupicus in 2 seconds.

i never asked bordy how to kill lupicus in 2 seconds. please talk more kitten.

How do you kill lupi in 2 seconds?

http://youtu.be/Q5YpOWZzDzU

spoj.9672:

http://youtu.be/Q5YpOWZzDzU

what is this witchcraft!

how did you get him to reset but still be in phase 2????

Thats what he asked. :P

I think Sandy told me once. I also remember there was a huge discussion on rT whatsapp chat about it.

Wethospu.6437:

So seems like some sort of a meeting to discuss rules

I figured this would happen. Weird how like 3 days ago I said, “I’ll bet there will be a meeting where ‘passionate’ rT members try to dupe the community into scrapping the restricted ruleset and totally destroy the SC community.”

I can already see it now. The destruction of the restricted rule set. Executioners Axes, harpy feathers, tonics, Hylek pots, watchwork portals. Have fun guys.

I would also like to see Snow Crows destroyed.

hybrid.5027:

Executioners Axes, harpy feathers, tonics, Hylek pots, watchwork portals. Have fun guys.

What about bosses not being killed?

Kappa.

hybrid.5027:

Wethospu.6437:

So seems like some sort of a meeting to discuss rules

I figured this would happen. Weird how like 3 days ago I said, “I’ll bet there will be a meeting where ‘passionate’ rT members try to dupe the community into scrapping the restricted ruleset and totally destroy the SC community.”

I can already see it now. The destruction of the restricted rule set. Executioners Axes, harpy feathers, tonics, Hylek pots, watchwork portals. Have fun guys.

Hmm, I thought the discussion was trending towards keeping both rule sets, but making unrestricted runs more competitive by fixing the start time rules. I don’t think there’s any reason to completely do away with the restricted rules.

dlonie.6547:

hybrid.5027:

Wethospu.6437:

So seems like some sort of a meeting to discuss rules

I figured this would happen. Weird how like 3 days ago I said, “I’ll bet there will be a meeting where ‘passionate’ rT members try to dupe the community into scrapping the restricted ruleset and totally destroy the SC community.”

I can already see it now. The destruction of the restricted rule set. Executioners Axes, harpy feathers, tonics, Hylek pots, watchwork portals. Have fun guys.

Hmm, I thought the discussion was trending towards keeping both rule sets, but making unrestricted runs more competitive by fixing the start time rules. I don’t think there’s any reason to completely do away with the restricted rules.

Let’s hope.

I thought it was heading more towards allowing minor jumping puzzles (but still do all objectives) and keeping consumables disallowed. But ok may aswell just add everything else to prove your point and let us know how salty you are.

spoj.9672:

I thought it was heading more towards allowing minor jumping puzzles (but still do all objectives) and keeping consumables disallowed.

How would you feel about leaving JPs (even minor door hops) out of restricted runs, but making unrestricted runs more competitive as proposed earlier?

I’m not sure door hops belong in restricted runs — if a door is supposed to be opened by an event / boss kill, bypassing it before it opens is unintended and thus shouldn’t be allowed.

But if unrestricted runs were made more competitive, we could see these tactics put to use.

Ropechef.6192:

spoj.9672:

http://youtu.be/Q5YpOWZzDzU

what is this witchcraft!

how did you get him to reset but still be in phase 2????

It’s all an illusion. They phased him then let Lupi get regen to heal back to full.

hybrid.5027:

Wethospu.6437:

So seems like some sort of a meeting to discuss rules

I figured this would happen. Weird how like 3 days ago I said, “I’ll bet there will be a meeting where ‘passionate’ rT members try to dupe the community into scrapping the restricted ruleset and totally destroy the SC community.”

I can already see it now. The destruction of the restricted rule set. Executioners Axes, harpy feathers, tonics, Hylek pots, watchwork portals. Have fun guys.

If that’s what a meeting ends up deciding then wouldn’t that mean it’s the more popular option?

I doubt that happens though.

dlonie.6547:

spoj.9672:

I thought it was heading more towards allowing minor jumping puzzles (but still do all objectives) and keeping consumables disallowed.

How would you feel about leaving JPs (even minor door hops) out of restricted runs, but making unrestricted runs more competitive as proposed earlier?

I’m not sure door hops belong in restricted runs — if a door is supposed to be opened by an event / boss kill, bypassing it before it opens is unintended and thus shouldn’t be allowed.

But if unrestricted runs were made more competitive, we could see these tactics put to use.

That would disallow every Arah p3 records of this year I have ever known.

Iris Ng.9845:

dlonie.6547:

spoj.9672:

I thought it was heading more towards allowing minor jumping puzzles (but still do all objectives) and keeping consumables disallowed.

How would you feel about leaving JPs (even minor door hops) out of restricted runs, but making unrestricted runs more competitive as proposed earlier?

I’m not sure door hops belong in restricted runs — if a door is supposed to be opened by an event / boss kill, bypassing it before it opens is unintended and thus shouldn’t be allowed.

But if unrestricted runs were made more competitive, we could see these tactics put to use.

That would disallow every Arah p3 records of this year I have ever known.

Also noone wants a split of rulesets. It didnt work out before. Besides most dungeons have jumping puzzles and door skips which barely make a difference other than allowing some interesting portal tricks/splits. At the moment we have to wait for every door which kills a lot of interesting strategies. Im really not a fan of this follow the linear route and no running ahead because a door hasnt opened yet speedclearing. Its pathetic compared to ac story and gw1 speedclears.

If we allow jumping puzzles and the lot but make a rule which says all intended objectives must be complete. Then we avoid the issue of the p3/p4 jumping puzzle. But we have more flexibility in strats on other paths.

Jerus.4350:

hybrid.5027:

Wethospu.6437:

So seems like some sort of a meeting to discuss rules

I figured this would happen. Weird how like 3 days ago I said, “I’ll bet there will be a meeting where ‘passionate’ rT members try to dupe the community into scrapping the restricted ruleset and totally destroy the SC community.”

I can already see it now. The destruction of the restricted rule set. Executioners Axes, harpy feathers, tonics, Hylek pots, watchwork portals. Have fun guys.

If that’s what a meeting ends up deciding then wouldn’t that mean it’s the more popular option?

Persuasive demagoguery + change for the sake of change has been known to override good sense.

spoj.9672:

I thought it was heading more towards allowing minor jumping puzzles (but still do all objectives) and keeping consumables disallowed. But ok may aswell just add everything else to prove your point and let us know how salty you are.

Let’s destroy the community so you can do a jump over the door COE record or a TA rocket jump over the gate record.

Let me ask something. Do you really think the door jumps in this record should be disallowed? And what about this jump? These are really minor but they open up loads of possibilies for much more interesting strategies. They also save a ton of time without skipping any objectives. I dont see why they should be disallowed. We are being enslaved by the games timegates when not using these. :/

Also i dont see how it destroys the community if all objectives must still be completed.

hybrid.5027:

Jerus.4350:

hybrid.5027:

Wethospu.6437:

So seems like some sort of a meeting to discuss rules

I figured this would happen. Weird how like 3 days ago I said, “I’ll bet there will be a meeting where ‘passionate’ rT members try to dupe the community into scrapping the restricted ruleset and totally destroy the SC community.”

I can already see it now. The destruction of the restricted rule set. Executioners Axes, harpy feathers, tonics, Hylek pots, watchwork portals. Have fun guys.

If that’s what a meeting ends up deciding then wouldn’t that mean it’s the more popular option?

Persuasive demagoguery + change for the sake of change has been known to override good sense.

I think there’s been enough reasonable commentary in this thread to warrant a discussion, not even including the talk about jumping puzzles and unrestricted stuff.

on the Jumping puzzle stuff being allowed, my only concern is when someone tries to submit a record where they teleport through a wall or something. I would like to see some of the JP stuff allowed, but how do you phrase the rule to allow that but not allow teleporting through some broken wall? just seems like an issue that could arise.

Whats wrong with blinking through a wall? If you are completing all objectives it makes little difference how you get to each one. Go watch some gw1 speedclears. :P

Jerus.4350:

hybrid.5027:

Jerus.4350:

hybrid.5027:

Wethospu.6437:

So seems like some sort of a meeting to discuss rules

I figured this would happen. Weird how like 3 days ago I said, “I’ll bet there will be a meeting where ‘passionate’ rT members try to dupe the community into scrapping the restricted ruleset and totally destroy the SC community.”

I can already see it now. The destruction of the restricted rule set. Executioners Axes, harpy feathers, tonics, Hylek pots, watchwork portals. Have fun guys.

If that’s what a meeting ends up deciding then wouldn’t that mean it’s the more popular option?

Persuasive demagoguery + change for the sake of change has been known to override good sense.

I think there’s been enough reasonable commentary in this thread to warrant a discussion, not even including the talk about jumping puzzles and unrestricted stuff.

on the Jumping puzzle stuff being allowed, my only concern is when someone tries to submit a record where they teleport through a wall or something. I would like to see some of the JP stuff allowed, but how do you phrase the rule to allow that but not allow teleporting through some broken wall? just seems like an issue that could arise.

You can blink through the wall to make the orb skip faster without the need of portal/shadowtrap as demonstrated by our friend Anubau.

Edit: Arah p3

spoj.9672:

Whats wrong with blinking through a wall? If you are completing all objectives it makes little difference how you get to each one. Go watch some gw1 speedclears. :P

I guess I can see your point and that it could be interesting. With say the old P2 out of world thing someone could be unlocking the alphard waypoint while others are fighting belka, then meet up for abom, do that, send your guard/mes and maybe an Ele in for Lupi while the rest go and take out alphard.

Could surely be interesting, but I still think the idea of teleporting out of the world is quite lame, may not be the most convincing of arguments but I don’t think it should be allowed. Jumping over top of things, sure, going through walls, naw.

Iris Ng.9845:

Jerus.4350:

hybrid.5027:

Jerus.4350:

hybrid.5027:

Wethospu.6437:

So seems like some sort of a meeting to discuss rules

I figured this would happen. Weird how like 3 days ago I said, “I’ll bet there will be a meeting where ‘passionate’ rT members try to dupe the community into scrapping the restricted ruleset and totally destroy the SC community.”

I can already see it now. The destruction of the restricted rule set. Executioners Axes, harpy feathers, tonics, Hylek pots, watchwork portals. Have fun guys.

If that’s what a meeting ends up deciding then wouldn’t that mean it’s the more popular option?

Persuasive demagoguery + change for the sake of change has been known to override good sense.

I think there’s been enough reasonable commentary in this thread to warrant a discussion, not even including the talk about jumping puzzles and unrestricted stuff.

on the Jumping puzzle stuff being allowed, my only concern is when someone tries to submit a record where they teleport through a wall or something. I would like to see some of the JP stuff allowed, but how do you phrase the rule to allow that but not allow teleporting through some broken wall? just seems like an issue that could arise.

You can blink through the wall to make the orb skip faster without the need of portal/shadowtrap as demonstrated by our friend Anubau.

Edit: Arah p3

Interesting I didn’t notice that.

Exactly. Those splits are what i want to see. They are interesting. Theres definitely a lot more skill involved if you have to split and kill bosses in small groups and the tactics are harder to pull off because everyone has to pull their weight without fail. Some aspects of accomplishing the splits may be lame and exploity. But this is the only game where the speedclearing community seems to care about that (which i think is pretty hilarious and hypocritical). Makes me think most people arent actual speedclearers. :P

spoj.9672:

Exactly. Those splits are what i want to see. They are interesting. Some aspects of accomplishing the splits may be lame and exploity. But this is the only game where the speedclearing community seems to care about that. Makes me think most people arent actual speedclearers. :P

Yeah, I mean I love the what is it 15-20 minute? clear of Ocarina of Time. BUT, it’s more of a situation of “is this what I want to play like” naw not really. I appreciate it but it’s not my cup of tea. I think that’s why 2 categories is our best option. Different strokes for different folks and all. Of course there’s the issue of diminishing competition for either one as people will choose which they want to focus on… so there’s that to think about /shrug.

What I really wish is that there was more freedom of exploration without having to resort to going outside the bounds of normal play. If more dungeons were designed like that it would be great.

Fine, I’ll just make a kitten tool that one shots all mobs in an instance and triggers all cutscenes so I clear the dungeon in 2 seconds. I win.

Tree.3916:

Fine, I’ll just make a kitten tool that one shots all mobs in an instance and triggers all cutscenes so I clear the dungeon in 2 seconds. I win.

I really want to see that “tool”. Sound exciting!

P.S. It’s like the 2 sec Lupi kill and everyone is suddenly all excited.

Tree.3916:

Fine, I’ll just make a kitten tool that one shots all mobs in an instance and triggers all cutscenes so I clear the dungeon in 2 seconds. I win.

Who suggested anything remotely similar to this? :-?

I think spokittenaking the best argument so far. As long as all objectives are completed, allowing JPs does add some interesting new strategies to be used.

Edit: Leaving that kitty there, because this has to be my favorite accidental filter ever. Orig text is: “spoj // is // making”

The downsides I can think of would be more record resets as ANet puts up invis walls. It would also raise the bar for submissions as speedclear groups will need to be able to master the JPs as well, but I personally wouldn’t consider that a drawback.

Obviously some people don’t agree — what are your reasons if you don’t like this idea?

Also, can someone link a video for the orb trick? I’m curious now and my googlekittenis failing me….

Tree.3916:

Fine, I’ll just make a kitten tool that one shots all mobs in an instance and triggers all cutscenes so I clear the dungeon in 2 seconds. I win.

Have you seen the Ocarina of Time speedrun stuff? It’s very interesting. The idea is to push the bounds of the game by finding every little hole in the code. Finding every little trick you can use. It is not about altering the game but besting it fully.

It’s taking the idea of AI manipulation to the next level. It’s not about creating some tool, but using the tools that are available in the best possible way.

Tree.3916:

Fine, I’ll just make a kitten tool that one shots all mobs in an instance and triggers all cutscenes so I clear the dungeon in 2 seconds. I win.

3rd party programs aren’t allowed.

dutchiez.7502:

Tree.3916:

Fine, I’ll just make a kitten tool that one shots all mobs in an instance and triggers all cutscenes so I clear the dungeon in 2 seconds. I win.

3rd party programs aren’t allowed.

Hey man, don’t be imposing unnecessary rules on me. It’s limiting creativity and interesting solutions.

Tree.3916:

dutchiez.7502:

Tree.3916:

Fine, I’ll just make a kitten tool that one shots all mobs in an instance and triggers all cutscenes so I clear the dungeon in 2 seconds. I win.

3rd party programs aren’t allowed.

Hey man, don’t be imposing unnecessary rules on me. It’s limiting creativity and interesting solutions.

Sarcasm aside, can you give a more substantive counter argument? I’m curious what folks think on this, and what their reasoning is.

Tree.3916:

dutchiez.7502:

Tree.3916:

Fine, I’ll just make a kitten tool that one shots all mobs in an instance and triggers all cutscenes so I clear the dungeon in 2 seconds. I win.

3rd party programs aren’t allowed.

Hey man, don’t be imposing unnecessary rules on me. It’s limiting creativity and interesting solutions.

Allowing hacks isn’t the same as allowing things that are achievable through in-game means available to the player without any manipulation of the game by outside programs. It’s a total non-argument.

Sure thing. Whatever makes you sleep at night.

dlonie.6547:

Sarcasm aside, can you give a more substantive counter argument? I’m curious what folks think on this, and what their reasoning is.

Let’s say we do allow jumping over walls. The first time it is done it is a novel strategy and everyone is wowed. After that, it becomes the status quo and we are back to square one as the same strategy is rehashed in subsequent runs. Eliminating “exploit” rules is not going to increase creativity or innovative solutions. Instead it will reinforce stale tactics that MUST be used in order to get a better time.

@dutchiez – So does this mean the DPS meters that are in use are also not allowed?

So much salt. :>

Tree.3916:

Sure thing. Whatever makes you sleep at night.

No shame in admitting you cannot refute an argument.

Tree.3916:

dlonie.6547:

Sarcasm aside, can you give a more substantive counter argument? I’m curious what folks think on this, and what their reasoning is.

Let’s say we do allow jumping over walls. The first time it is done it is a novel strategy and everyone is wowed. After that, it becomes the status quo and we are back to square one as the same strategy is rehashed in subsequent runs. Eliminating “exploit” rules is not going to increase creativity or innovative solutions. Instead it will reinforce stale tactics that MUST be used in order to get a better time.

The same can be said for “no exploit” rules. There will always be a status quo until someone finds a better way, exploits allowed or not.

As much as I love exploiting, I’d vote no to taking advantage of obvious unintentional game mechanics. That includes lupi bombs/interrupts, icebow meteor shower focusing, and clever JP gate jumping. Leave that for unrestricted runs.

Tree.3916:

Sure thing. Whatever makes you sleep at night.

dlonie.6547:

Sarcasm aside, can you give a more substantive counter argument? I’m curious what folks think on this, and what their reasoning is.

Let’s say we do allow jumping over walls. The first time it is done it is a novel strategy and everyone is wowed. After that, it becomes the status quo and we are back to square one as the same strategy is rehashed in subsequent runs. Eliminating “exploit” rules is not going to increase creativity or innovative solutions. Instead it will reinforce stale tactics that MUST be used in order to get a better time.

Like the p3 start, skipping past a door before it closes, right? Yet that one got the ok, but others didn’t.

Consistency just isn’t there is this set of rules, that’s why I feel there should be a discussion about them to nail it down.

I do like the idea of seeing what the fastest people can do unrestricted, but it’s not personally the gameplay I’m after, so there’s that.

And that basically answers dlonie’s question, why not have a free for all? Well because not everyone finds that fun. Rising brought it up earlier, is the goal to find who can do things the absolute fastest? or is it to create a competitive element to the PVE? If it’s a competitive element wouldn’t a larger pool of competitors be good?

We did have an unrestricted records section but it became inactive after some time so it was removed. People attribute that inactivity to specific rules being too lax. (Timing rules) What I don’t understand is why we need to combine the two. Why not just update the unrestricted ruleset to match the restricted ruleset in the areas that are most important (ie. Timing and video proof).

Last i checked speedclearing is to do things as fast as possible. If you want a competative PvE element which appeals to the masses go do DnT’s tournaments. They can always have more conservative rules in those.

I felt pretty dirty inside when we did our TA FW record and it wasnt as fast as it could of been because of a rule saying we couldnt go through one door until it opens.

And this is the best for the community? What consensus do you have that I don’t know about?

I can only say you have lost sight of what speed clearing is and why we do it. But whatever, it shall be discussed in the upcoming meeting.

By the way these are the only rules i have complaints about:

5.) All pathways that are designed to block progress through the path must be opened. You may not have any party member(s) get past blocked passages until the required sequence/dialogue has been completed.

7.) If any party member(s) at any point enter ‘out of bounds’ on a dungeon map, the time will be void.

And I would even be content with unrestricted being an exact copy of restricted the difference being the exclusion of these two rules. Although i imagine others would like some consumable use etc to be allowed.

So if we axe rule 5, what is to prevent the next Arah p4 record starting with an “epic” multiple boss skip?

If it’s wrong to skip these bosses in a record, why is it wrong? Why shouldn’t we allow skipping bosses (and other events), too?

If it’s not wrong to skip them, if there were a dungeon you could literally just exploit to the end and kill the last boss in, would that be allowed?

After all, isn’t it all about doing things as fast as possible? Or is it instead about increasing creativity? Or what? I just don’t see how both ideas are compatible. If it’s about speed, you permit everything, even when it’ll clearly reduce creativity.

I don’t see how the increasing creativity argument is valid, either. It’ll increase it for a short time, and then we’re stuck with the same status quo we are at now. Long run average creativity really doesn’t change much.

As for the suggestion there should be a unified rule set and that ruleset should be unrestricted, I don’t agree. Either the community can support both, or it can’t. If it can, there’s no reason not to have both. If it can’t, why should we go with a ruleset that failed (possibly because of the timer issue, possibly not, we just cannot known for certain) over one that’s demonstrably been quite successful? I’d be all for giving unrestricted another shot alongside restricted, but I just can’t see a good justification to scrap restricted for unrestricted.

For the most part, this seems more like a desire to have dungeons that are highly conducive to split tactics, and thus aren’t nearly as linear as the ones we have now. Changing the rules won’t do much with respect to making extremely linear dungeons less linear. And it seems like some of that desire for splits comes from wanting to see each person having to pull more weight, which could already be accomplished by say, trio records.

If we shift things to hardcore jumping exploits, does ANET’s perception of our community go from whatever it is now to something a lot less favorable?

If you read the rest of the rules it says all objectives and cutscenes must be completed. So p4 skip is covered even with those rules removed.

Most paths are very simple in terms of tactics because of how linear they are. With jumps they become less linear because we can do some objectives out of order or we can send someone ahead to portal or prep the next objective. I dont see why everyone is in support of follow path > kill boss > wait for door > stealth and run > boss > door > skip > boss. Theres no denying CM and AC story are the most interesting dungeons to watch simply because they dont block everyone off from each objective. Dont you want to see the rest of the dungeons completed in similar ways?

Also I think you guys are overestimating some of these “exploits”. Some paths would barely change other than allowing a portal or two.