Guild Wars 2

Since the new loot is influenced by magic find, those who have magic find gear will be the ones benefiting most while actually doing less. This is a huge problem, but easily fixed. Right now MF is a selfish stat, but it can be changed into benefiting the whole group.

Diablo 3 also has magic find and therefore the same problem. What they did (and since removed, don’t know why) was sharing the magic find. So, in a group of 5 if one person has +100% MF and the rest have 0, it would be balanced and everyone would have +20% instead.

I think this would be an interesting fix. This way MF could be valued instead of shunned and groups would actually look for someone with high MF in order to bring that small MF boost to the whole party.

yes, should be shared or removed from dungeons

If I want to get better drops I’m privileged to wear MF armour, it’s simple, don’t tell everyone how to play their game.

So you’re willing to get carried by others in order to get better drops? What a privilege!

I’m not telling you how to play, I’m telling you to stop screwing other people over so you can get better gear. Being selfish is not a privilege, it’s a flaw.

Canoas.8423:

So you’re willing to get carried by others in order to get better drops? What a privilege!

I’m not telling you how to play, I’m telling you to stop screwing other people over so you can get better gear. Being selfish is not a privilege, it’s a flaw.

I thought I left an obvious clue.

haviz.1340:

I thought I left an obvious clue.

I asked a rhetorical question. I know what the answer is.

But I have another suggestion. Let us inspect people’s gear instead. This way no one will want to play with someone with MF and those with MF won’t be able to play with each other since they’re too weak to complete the instance.

There’s no guarantee that those who wear MF gear would be ‘too weak to complete the instance’, especially since the people who use MF to farm for rares are typically running with an otherwise good set of gear and knowledge of game mechanics where ‘losing’ a bonus stat (like Vit or Prec) to Magic Find is probably not as big a deal as you imagine when compared to the ‘average’ person.

That said, MF should provide a bonus to party members in the same instance, like maybe a good 20% or so.

Agreed, share the MF, but if not put an inspect gear option, or remove the stat.

It’s tiring getting the one or two who are selfish in not helping the group but want better loot for themselves

Yes, it shouldn’t work in dungeons, or add inspect feature as people said. It’s not acceptable to do a dungeon that takes over an hour to complete with normal gear and find kittened characters that are simply “leeching” for the most part because no matter what build you use it makes your character much worse therefor increasing that 1h+ probably by half hour or more.

I don’t have anything against people who uses MF gear, but if they want to use it they should make MF gear groups or invite people who is agree with it.

That being said, this doesn’t mean i don’t want people with bad gear in my team, but i don’t want people who probably has good gear using bad one just because they want to make a dungeon sightly more profitable and much slower for the entire party to complete. And yes, it is that bad…it lowers your damage pretty much by 1/3 or even 1/2 in some cases like medium armor.

The problem is not about magic find per say, but how it was implemented. As it stand now you have to give away some of your most important stats to get some magic find, since both magic find gear, runes and else don’t have all the stat you want or need. So imo they should or give magic find item or enhancements more stat choice, or make it a specific stat you add via some extra gem slot or something new to this taste. Imo they should just rework it. It’s obvious they wanted to add some MF in dungeon gear, but their system make it worst imo.

I like the idea of “sharing” your MF stat, but not dividing. If I have 100 MF, I don’t want to only get 20 out of it. I think your party should get a percentage of yours, but you should get your full stat. So that way a critical member of the party might be the “magic find” guy.

In response to the idea that the MF people are “useless members” or “bringing down the party”, that is true if you’re running a fully optimized party. But you don’t need that. I’m currently one of (if not THE) strongest link in my party, and I have full MF gear. Heck, I don’t even have max armor, I’m working on that now. Being skillful, knowing when to dodge, bringing utility in some way to the party is usually more helpful. Just knowing what you’re doing. The fact that you don’t deal MAX damage isn’t that huge of a deal. You’ll slow the run down by a minute or two.

Also, well you can consider it selfish, I have to pay for those runes, and that armor, and those weapons. And some of them are quite expensive. And most MF people have a secondary set if they need it. If things get tough, and they really need to bring their game, they can. In fact, MF doesn’t affect chests. They could be gearing up when fighting the bosses. Though I guess you want boss loot too. :P

Either way, I see it like this. IF and ONLY IF I am the weak link in the party would I ever switch out of my MF gear. Currently, that is not the case. I’m not going to cripple the party on purpose, but I’m not going to purposely get bad loot because of unneccesary elitism either.

Rakuren Kenshou.7689:

The fact that you don’t deal MAX damage isn’t that huge of a deal. You’ll slow the run down by a minute or two.

Also, well you can consider it selfish, I have to pay for those runes, and that armor, and those weapons. And some of them are quite expensive.

By 1 minute or two? That might be the case in the speed runs that take like 15 mins to be completed, but then, put everyone on MF gear and even those 15 min will turn into 30.

No matter how skilled people is, sure to do crappy speed runs the gear doesn’t matter, but on dungeons that take longer than 30 mins or hours to be completed…even having a single player using MF gear is bad and noticable.

And MF gear is not THAT expensive, in fact it’s cheap. Using MF gear in dungeons is very selfish because it doesn’t boost your profit by much considering many mobs can’t be looted and chests ignore MF completely or so it seems.

Btw i have full MF gear, but i know it’s garbage to use it in Dungeons because it makes everyone spend more time doing it and the profit for using MF in a dungeon is pathetic compared with what you get farming fields/events with it.

Rakuren Kenshou.7689:

I like the idea of “sharing” your MF stat, but not dividing. If I have 100 MF, I don’t want to only get 20 out of it. I think your party should get a percentage of yours, but you should get your full stat. So that way a critical member of the party might be the “magic find” guy.

That way everyone would want to be the magic find guy and the problem would persist. Someone in the party is sacrificing damage in order to get more loot than the rest. Why does it have to be you who uses the MF gear? Why not someone else?

I’ve sat and thought about people using MF gear…and can’t really see the issue if their skill holds up? The arguments that only come down to numbers doesn’t really work for a number of reasons.

Let’s say I swapped my guardian’s exotic knight set for full explorer’s (we’ll leave upgrades out of it for now). I’d lose 315 armor. Is that a huge amount? I normally use a hammer. If I used a knight’s shield , with a trait that I forget the name of, that would become a loss of only 74. Let’s assume a mace in my other hand.

I’ve lost minimal toughness, my damage dealing stats haven’t really changed, and I’m healing people with my mace. Are people really going to notice my lack of 74 armor?

Just one example.

Valmarius.4150:

I’ve sat and thought about people using MF gear…and can’t really see the issue if their skill holds up? The arguments that only come down to numbers doesn’t really work for a number of reasons.

Let’s say I swapped my guardian’s exotic knight set for full explorer’s (we’ll leave upgrades out of it for now). I’d lose 315 armor. Is that a huge amount? I normally use a hammer. If I used a knight’s shield , with a trait that I forget the name of, that would become a loss of only 74. Let’s assume a mace in my other hand.

I’ve lost minimal toughness, my damage dealing stats haven’t really changed, and I’m healing people with my mace. Are people really going to notice my lack of 74 armor?

Just one example.

How is it only 74 armor difference? You’d still have 315 more armor had you not changed for MF gear and you were forced to change your skills and weapons. Yes, your damage dealing stats didn’t change, but are you claiming that your damage didn’t change either? you were forced to change your role.

What if everyone did the same? What if each party member changed to a defensive role in order to use MF gear like you are doing? If they did that then you’d barely progress through the instance.

But like I said, maybe the best option is to allow inspect. Pretty much everyone is exotic geared, there’s no gear score like in wow. The only thing inspect would allow us to check is who is being selfish or not.

You are not taking into account the jewerly and runes, so yeah, it’s an huge difference.

Everything is doable with MF gear, but is it the same spending 30 minutes than spending 45 or 1h? Probably the one who has 6h+ to play everyday doesn’t give a crap, but the one who has 1 or 2 hours actually wants to get the most out of their time.

Going full MF set is losing 1071 of one stat. Not much of a difference obviously.

Canoas.8423:

Valmarius.4150:

I’ve sat and thought about people using MF gear…and can’t really see the issue if their skill holds up? The arguments that only come down to numbers doesn’t really work for a number of reasons.

Let’s say I swapped my guardian’s exotic knight set for full explorer’s (we’ll leave upgrades out of it for now). I’d lose 315 armor. Is that a huge amount? I normally use a hammer. If I used a knight’s shield , with a trait that I forget the name of, that would become a loss of only 74. Let’s assume a mace in my other hand.

I’ve lost minimal toughness, my damage dealing stats haven’t really changed, and I’m healing people with my mace. Are people really going to notice my lack of 74 armor?

Just one example.

How is it only 74 armor difference? You’d still have 315 more armor had you not changed for MF gear and you were forced to change your skills and weapons. Yes, your damage dealing stats didn’t change, but are you claiming that your damage didn’t change either? you were forced to change your role.

What if everyone did the same? What if each party member changed to a defensive role in order to use MF gear like you are doing? If they did that then you’d barely progress through the instance.

But like I said, maybe the best option is to allow inspect. Pretty much everyone is exotic geared, there’s no gear score like in wow. The only thing inspect would allow us to check is who is being selfish or not.

I have to point out first, that this is all hypothetical on my part. I don’t even own any MF gear,. But, onwards.

Bear with me, because I’m not too good at explaining things.

The arguments I’m seeing, to me, come down to, and I’m paraphrasing here: ‘People have to be min/maxed or I don’t want them in my group.’ I really can’t see the difference between that and demanding people have exotics only. You want them in a optimum setup, or you don’t want them ay all. It’s ironic people here are always dissing WoW, and then turning around and asking for people in certain gear.

What’s next? Telling people not to eat magic find food, because other food is better for stats?

What I I’d said I normally use mace/focus? Switching to shield would give me pretty much the same damage output in that case. Saying ‘Ah, but you’d have xxx extra toughness if you stuck with your original armor’ is meaningless, -because that toughness never existed in my original build- and it made no difference at all.

I guess, what I’m saying is, taking my example NOONE in the group would notice a lack in my performance swapping focus for shield, and then trading some of that extra toughness for magic find.

Sure, if people are coming in full MF gear, weapons, upgrades etc they’re maybe going to be in for a rough time…although maybe not depending on player/skill/traits,. But all this pitchfork waving is way over the top.

A lot of builds don’t need the third stat. So why not just use MF?

In the fractals, after a certain point the agony damage starts making high vitality less necessary as well, as it’s percentage based damage. So having high VIT for the sake of having high VIT isn’t even viable anymore.

Completely sacrificing a build for MF is probably bad, but adapting around it isn’t.

It really just comes down to elitism. You’re demanding that the players you play with play a certain way and wear certain gear.

I kite like a pro while my phantasms deal out stupid amounts of damage. I don’t need the extra VIT or defense.

I could never argue the fact that I’m less effective than if I was running a perfect build. But I guess I’m just bothered that people demand I be more effective, especially if I’m contributing just as much (if not more) than they are already.

Honestly though, what amount of MF is alright to run? Just accesories? Just armor? Just weapons? Why even bother having the stat if players won’t accept the players who use it, especially with the new increased drops? And further, I haven’t even run into this problem in game. I’ve never seen someone complain about MF gear yet, nor has anyone complained about my contribution during guild play or pick up groups. I’m only hearing this on the forums so far.

Rakuren Kenshou.7689:

And further, I haven’t even run into this problem in game. I’ve never seen someone complain about MF gear yet, nor has anyone complained about my contribution during guild play or pick up groups. I’m only hearing this on the forums so far.

This is actually what got me thinking about it. In a dungeon pug, we had a guy drop an exotic. It was then he told us that he was wearing a lot of MF gear. If he hadn’t have told me, I wouldn’t have noticed. He used his skills to good effect, didn’t keep going down, mobs didn’t take a long time to kill etc. It made literally no difference to our run.

Valmarius.4150:

Rakuren Kenshou.7689:

And further, I haven’t even run into this problem in game. I’ve never seen someone complain about MF gear yet, nor has anyone complained about my contribution during guild play or pick up groups. I’m only hearing this on the forums so far.

This is actually what got me thinking about it. In a dungeon pug, we had a guy drop an exotic. It was then he told us that he was wearing a lot of MF gear. If he hadn’t have told me, I wouldn’t have noticed. He used his skills to good effect, didn’t keep going down, mobs didn’t take a long time to kill etc. It made literally no difference to our run.

Yeah, like I said in an earlier post, it probably adds 1-2 minutes to the run. What I think these players are complaining about is BAD players running MF. And unfortunately, there are going to be bad players in the game. Whether it’s bad internet, bad computer, or just bad hand-eye co-ordination, it’s going to happen. It wouldn’t matter if they were running MF or not. If you can notice the difference, then they likely aren’t going to contribute the level of skill you want either way.

And to touch on the greedy thing…

You know what? I am greedy. I want money. I want to get good drops, then sell them or toss them in the forge. There you go. I admitted it.

Now are you going to admit you are all greedy too? You want to save time, at the expense of me getting loot. You want to take something away from me so that you can save time. Time is money. The difference is that I’m using my time effectively to get money. In fact, currently I’m using my full MF gear in order to make enough money for other sets of gear to give me more options.

If at any point I ever become a liability to my party, I will switch to my full combat gear. Hasn’t happened yet.

Support, something needs to be done about magic find leechers. Either disable magic find in dungeons completly, make it shared equally (20% of the complete magic find value of the group for each player) or make it a seperate stat which doesnt take normal stats away.

So having MF gear is only about the third stat…huh? There are no sigils, there are no runes. Also it’s not only the third stat, your main stats are also lower because MF gear has worse stats, an example is the chests, MF ones have 72 to the highest stat and normal gear has 101.

Sure you probably won’t notice the difference with 1 leecher, but take 5 players with MF gear and let’s see if it’s not noticable. You can also do Dungeons with 3-4 players without any problem by that matter…and in fact the time spent between 3 players with good gear and 5 players with full MF gear probably will be the same if the skill involved is equal.

The thing is that with 1 MFer in your group it won’t make it obvious, take 2 or 3 and you will see the DPS/survivality is much worse and therefor time spent doing a dungeon increases a lot…you don’t need to be a genious to see that.

People who uses MF gear in dungeons should only play with the same kind of people using MF, they would then notice how kitteny it actually is to be in such group, but they should be happy because they all can use that gear to get 20-40s more in a 2h dungeon. Players don’t realize this because usually you get one or two of these leechers at most, it’s quite rare to see 3-5 players on the same group using MF…but i wish that happened more often so Anet had thousand of complaints on the forum whining about this same topic

People should not be forced to play the way they don’t want, but that applies for both sides…you can’t force people to carry leechers just because you can’t tell who is the actual leecher unless you ask for people to link their gear and check the skins one by one (and even then, they could have 2 sets with same skins so you can’t tell).

Sleepy.2647:

People should not be forced to play the way they don’t want, but that applies for both sides…you can’t force people to carry leechers.

You’re completely right.

If I’m in a party with a player who can’t pull his own weight, and isn’t willing to take advice or find a way to pull their own weight (getting into voice chat with us or something), we’ll drop them if necessary to finish the dungeon. So I completely see where you’re coming from. Sort of. Generally we’re nice about it, and don’t call people leechers.

Either way, I’m not a weak link in my party, and someone using MF isn’t by default a weak link either. Bad players are weak links. Are they leechers? Not really, I’m sure they are trying to do well.

So if you want to call me a leecher, that’s fine. It’s possible that I (or someone else using MF) play better than you though. Perhaps we should demand you learn to play better?

I really don’t like this mindset. It’s just so naturally negative of a way to think about how you play a game. Do you want me to be 6 feet tall and have blond hair and blue eyes too?

Rakuren Kenshou.7689:

Either way, I’m not a weak link in my party, and someone using MF isn’t by default a weak link either.

That’s being a leecher want it or not. Bad players are not leechers, people plays better or worse…that’s a fact, but if you are not giving your best without the need of spending anything that’s leeching your party.

Sure you might not be a weak link to your party, but tell your whole party to use full MF gear and let’s see if the party is so efficient
As i said, it’s hardly noticable having 1 “MFer” in the group, take a whole group of MFers and let’s see how well and fast it goes.

There is an huge difference between not having the gear and having it and not using it just because you want better profit on YOURSELF. I would take a new player with green gear adapted to their build over a skilled MFer anytime, if i’m going to carry someone i choose the one who needs it the most.

The thing is still that people should be able to choose, right now there is no choice because people can simply lie and link normal gear when in reality they are using “Leecher” gear.

Sleepy.2647:

Rakuren Kenshou.7689:

Either way, I’m not a weak link in my party, and someone using MF isn’t by default a weak link either.

That’s being a leecher want it or not. Bad players are not leechers, people plays better or worse…that’s a fact, but if you are not giving your best without the need of spending anything that’s leeching your party.

Sure you might not be a weak link to your party, but tell your whole party to use full MF gear and let’s see if the party is so efficient
As i said, it’s hardly noticable having 1 “MFer” in the group, take a whole group of MFers and let’s see how well and fast it goes.

There is an huge difference between not having the gear and having it and not using it just because you want better profit on YOURSELF. I would take a new player with green gear adapted to their build over a skilled MFer anytime, if i’m going to carry someone i choose the one who needs it the most.

The thing is still that people should be able to choose, right now there is no choice because people can simply lie and link normal gear when in reality they are using “Leecher” gear.

/clap

Agreed wholeheartedly. Just try running in a whole mf party, lacking 5355 stat points won’t make a difference right? 1-2 minutes longer.

It’s not even close to a convenient way to run a dungeon for more money, with magic find.As was said, time=money.Well, guess what? If you’ve ran the dungeon with normal gear and used the MF gear to grind events in the time you spared, you’d get a lot more money for your time.
You run with mf gear for cash, yet the increase is so little, that it barely can be called proficient way of making money.

The thing about dungeons is that when you are slow, you slow down 4 other people.You fail – they fail.It’s no longer a single player experience like in events where there’s 50 other guys killing left and right with just a mean stare
You go in there trying to be as good as possible, because you expect others to be so too.That may sound like elitism, but to me it sounds more like common sense.

Sleepy.2647:

Rakuren Kenshou.7689:

Either way, I’m not a weak link in my party, and someone using MF isn’t by default a weak link either.

That’s being a leecher want it or not. Bad players are not leechers, people plays better or worse…that’s a fact, but if you are not giving your best without the need of spending anything that’s leeching your party.

Most of the time bad players are simply not “giving their best”.

Your computer sucks? You’re not doing the best you could. You could buy a new computer.

Your internet sucks? See above.

You can’t dodge or kite properly? You need to spend more time practicing. Time is money. Take a day off work, practice.

They aren’t giving you “their best”.

Do you have facebook open and chatting while playing? Are you on your headset chatting casually with a friend? You’re not giving “your best”.

Are you eating while you’re playing? Are you worried that your girlfriend is going to break up with you? You’re not doing “your best”. You are distracted.

If I could have my MF AND max gear, I would. I don’t play bad on purpose. I want to use MF, and I don’t fail at contributing to my party. I really don’t see how this is a problem. Unless you start refusing people for all the above reasons too, which some people do. And that’s sad, and probably turns a lot of people away from gaming.

Rakuren Kenshou.7689:

Most of the time bad players are simply not “giving their best”.

Your computer sucks? You’re not doing the best you could. You could buy a new computer.

Your internet sucks? See above.

You can’t dodge or kite properly? You need to spend more time practicing. Time is money. Take a day off work, practice.

They aren’t giving you “their best”.

Do you have facebook open and chatting while playing? Are you on your headset chatting casually with a friend? You’re not giving “your best”.

Are you eating while you’re playing? Are you worried that your girlfriend is going to break up with you? You’re not doing “your best”. You are distracted.

If I could have my MF AND max gear, I would. I don’t play bad on purpose. I want to use MF, and I don’t fail at contributing to my party. I really don’t see how this is a problem. Unless you start refusing people for all the above reasons too, which some people do. And that’s sad, and probably turns a lot of people away from gaming.

Your argument makes no sense, people who has a bad computer, can’t dodge or plays worse than you are already giving their best…you however don’t.
There are many forms of leeching, like what you said about playing semi-afk, just like using MF gear is also leeching and being selfish
I noticed you have a hard time facing the truth, but if you are already in a set group who agrees with you leeching a bit why are you so worried? The skill of the player has nothing to do with this topic, using MF gear is much worse than using normal gear so there is no point argueing over this.

@Ivanov
That’s what the leechers don’t understand, it’s not profitable to use MF gear in a dungeon that will slow down everyone included yourself. Sure if you are the only one leeching then it “could” be a bit profitable because it won’t slow down the group by an hour, but if several people in your party do it you will probably be stuck in a party that will spend too much time doing the dungeon for a small profit.

Rakuren Kenshou.7689:

Sleepy.2647:

Rakuren Kenshou.7689:

Either way, I’m not a weak link in my party, and someone using MF isn’t by default a weak link either.

That’s being a leecher want it or not. Bad players are not leechers, people plays better or worse…that’s a fact, but if you are not giving your best without the need of spending anything that’s leeching your party.

Most of the time bad players are simply not “giving their best”.

Your computer sucks? You’re not doing the best you could. You could buy a new computer.

Your internet sucks? See above.

You can’t dodge or kite properly? You need to spend more time practicing. Time is money. Take a day off work, practice.

They aren’t giving you “their best”.

Do you have facebook open and chatting while playing? Are you on your headset chatting casually with a friend? You’re not giving “your best”.

Are you eating while you’re playing? Are you worried that your girlfriend is going to break up with you? You’re not doing “your best”. You are distracted.

If I could have my MF AND max gear, I would. I don’t play bad on purpose. I want to use MF, and I don’t fail at contributing to my party. I really don’t see how this is a problem. Unless you start refusing people for all the above reasons too, which some people do. And that’s sad, and probably turns a lot of people away from gaming.

Well, you are really one of those people that can’t be reasoned with.
I’ll give you the word that describes your behavior: selfish.
Definition : concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself : seeking or concentrating on one’s own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others.

When you are in a team situation, with support playing a major role, you choosing items that not only contribute to you alone, but also lessen your overall performance, that is simply selfish.Dress it with references and pretty words all you like, it changes nothing.

Honestly, I’ve never played in a situation where either…

a) The dungeon wasn’t so easy that it was a cakewalk for every member.
or
b) I didn’t have the highest level equipment among the members of my party.

So I really don’t have enough experience to argue with you about this. I apologize for offending you. I’m not trying to be greedy, and if at some point, I ever hurt the odds of my party in some ways, I will definitely switch over to higher stat gear.

I’m more worried about defending the players who will be discouraged by being called leechers for having certain gear. Like you said, you’re likely not going to change my mind. Only experience will do that. And I’m not going to change your minds either.

So again, I apologize for wasting your time. Just please try to be kind to others, even if they don’t have max gear. You might see them as leechers, but it’s likely they never even realized they were being greedy. Just don’t exclude people from participating in something fun that they are willing to help you do, even if they aren’t “giving it 100%”.

It’s the choice that makes such people greedy.This evening I ran some fractals with guildies, 2 of which had half MF gear.The reason I didn’t say or do anything at the time was simply because those were 78 rares and they just didn’t have any other gear.

If you can run a dungeon with normal gear, yet you choose to slow the run down, by choosing to use a weaker set for personal gain, that is by default greedy.
And, I try to be kind to people.And I succeed….most of the time….

Ivanov.8914:

It’s the choice that makes such people greedy

This.

I guess if it’s a big enough problem for some people, it’s something that should be reviewed at least, so I’ll jump on your side for a bit.

I wonder what the best actual solution is for this. Taking MF out of the equation (by eliminating enemy drops in dungeons and sticking all loot in the chests) would solve the issue, but it would require players to grind for two sets of gear if they wanted MF for PvE.

Having an extra MF bonus on top of regular bonuses could work, but the value of those items would shoot so high up, it would be ridiculous. There would be no reason to ever NOT have those items (kind of like ascended stuff is going to be).

The idea of sharing magic find doesn’t even really solve the issue, because it would still slow the group down some amount. So the first option is probably the best one, and honestly, I wouldn’t mind that so much as a player.

WvW is another story though. Using MF kind of takes away from your “team”, but I’m not sure it’s as big of a deal out there. I see WvW as an extension of PvE where the enemies are just REALLY clever.

I guess another option is having MF be achievement/title based. The more you achieve, the better gear you start to get. Even makes sense in a roleplaying kind of perspective.

Having an armor swap option (much like how you have a weapon swap) would be cool too. Though probably breakable.

I certainly like that they have food and “buffs” for MF too though. Cause I doubt anyone would actually complain that you are eating MF food rather than +power food. I’m not sure if people actually consume food other than MF consistantly.

WOW, I’d just like to point out it’s the selfish that are labeling others as greedy or selfish. All I here is “me…Me…ME!” I should have what you have, no less? How about NO…. Game Snob!

What if someone wanted to join Your party and wasn’t even level 80 yet? Gasp Heaven’s forbid anything like that could happen. Like helping others in a social game is such a bad thing??? When I run a dungeon, I openly invite any level to join my party. Since I’m aware they’re treated like Leper’s by folks like you. You know, like those pesky NEW players that keep Anet happy and in business.

Or, the casual players…. that haven’t the time to level.
Or, the older/younger players without the coordination or reflexes to be as fast.
Or, the actually handicapped people that could have a whole host of reason to not be as “optimized” to play as your Godly self, Super Gamer.

Are you THAT person, when we all go out to dinner, loves everything until it’s time to pay? Then complains and whines non stop about the service. Kinda sounds like it from this whine fest of a thread.

btw… Awesome Adam Savage quote Rakuren Kenshou.7689 I love that one too.

I like the idea of divided and shared MF.
Guy has 100% MF: Entire party has 20%.
Entire party has 100%: Entire party has 100%.

Mostly, I like this idea because it reverses the greed. If you wear your best gear and a dude in your group is toting around MF stuff, you get a portion of it without investment.

KyleQuest.4639:

WOW, I’d just like to point out it’s the selfish that are labeling others as greedy or selfish. All I here is “me…Me…ME!” I should have what you have, no less? How about NO…. Game Snob!

I guess you are offended by the “selfish” label. But how else can we describe magic find stat? It has absolutely ZERO group synergy effects (except if loot splitting is practiced between the said group. Highly unlikely though.)

My issue with magic find is that depending on profession, it can be more of a challenge to build around the stat spread magic find gear has. Then there is the whole breakdown of if said play-style is actually enjoyable for you play. Food helps get round that, so does runes.

If people wanna stack magic find gear that’s fine. I don’t care for the fact that not stacking it means I’ve seen all of 2 worthless exotics drop after all my time playing, or that not having it means that ectos really are hard to get. I accept it and move on though.

I would rather see better loot tables and not have mf, than feel pressured to keep a mf set.

Canoas.8423:

Since the new loot is influenced by magic find, those who have magic find gear will be the ones benefiting most while actually doing less. This is a huge problem, but easily fixed. Right now MF is a selfish stat, but it can be changed into benefiting the whole group.

Diablo 3 also has magic find and therefore the same problem. What they did (and since removed, don’t know why) was sharing the magic find. So, in a group of 5 if one person has +100% MF and the rest have 0, it would be balanced and everyone would have +20% instead.

I think this would be an interesting fix. This way MF could be valued instead of shunned and groups would actually look for someone with high MF in order to bring that small MF boost to the whole party.

Then if one person had 100% therefore everybody gets only 25%……..i would require everybody to be running MF gear, so we all get more…….that would not solve the problem.

It’s not about being min/max or if you can finish a dungeon in MF gear or not.

Your getting extra loot by burdening your team no matter how you try and spin it.

O honestly! This anti-magic find garbage is just getting out of hand now. IF you make magic find shared, what is to stop people from excluding people who don’t have magic find gear? You NOW want inspect feature so you can kick people wearing magic find because you think it is somehow screwing you. But would be perfectly okay with taking these people you have to “carry” if you could also get a slice of their pie? Yet that’s just going to mean that you will inevitably go for the people with the biggest pies! I.e. if magic find was shared, you would want an inspect feature to find the people with magic find gear!

The magic find argument is not about group efficiency. It never has been! It’s about envy! You don’t want the guy next to you coming out of the dungeon with more loot then you! Well tough! We are only given three stats and we all made/will make judgement calls on which three stats we choose to favour. Other’s may agree or disagree with the choices but no one, NO ONE has a right to “share” in stats they had no hand in us obtaining.

And if you can’t tolerate the idea of the guy next to you coming out of the dungeon with more loot then you, then get magic find gear of your own!

Tinni.4351:

O honestly! This anti-magic find garbage is just getting out of hand now. IF you make magic find shared, what is to stop people from excluding people who don’t have magic find gear? You NOW want inspect feature so you can kick people wearing magic find because you think it is somehow screwing you. But would be perfectly okay with taking these people you have to “carry” if you could also get a slice of their pie? Yet that’s just going to mean that you will inevitably go for the people with the biggest pies! I.e. if magic find was shared, you would want an inspect feature to find the people with magic find gear!

The magic find argument is not about group efficiency. It never has been! It’s about envy! You don’t want the guy next to you coming out of the dungeon with more loot then you! Well tough! We are only given three stats and we all made/will make judgement calls on which three stats we choose to favour. Other’s may agree or disagree with the choices but no one, NO ONE has a right to “share” in stats they had no hand in us obtaining.

And if you can’t tolerate the idea of the guy next to you coming out of the dungeon with more loot then you, then get magic find gear of your own!

Then by that argument, ppl who wear mf gear wants to be envied by others? To be honest I don’t give a flying jack about people who get good drops. I am happy for them though. I run dungeons because its fun and the new patches made it more profitable in terms of silver drops. Lodestones from chest are a plus too which are not agumented by mf anyways. But sacrificing mf for stats, the effects are a fact.

I do not mind players who wear MF gear as long as they have another set that they can swap in when the situation gets tough.

I’ve been running with pugs since difficutly 1 and I have very few problems with them until I hit difficulty 20. The players who do not have any survival gear became too obvious and drop like flies whenever they get hit by nearly anything. No amount of skill will enable them to avoid the onslaught and most of these players only survive because they are being carried by “tanks” who grab the aggro of the mobs.

I finally had enough of these players when I went to progress through difficulty 21. The party that I was in consisted of a guardian, 2 necros, a thief, and me as a warrior. The guardian and I both had a set of tank and dps gear which we could swap on demand. the 2 necros wore full MF gear, and the thief wore mixed dps and survival gear.

The problem started when we got into the dredge part where the bombs need to be planted to blast the wall. The guard, thief, and I were wondering why the two necros who were supposed to be a bit tanky were being mowed down by the dredge that spawned after planting some bombs. We did not know each others’ gear yet until one of the necros started linking the amount of loot that he was getting. The guardian confronted the necro when his speculation was correct that the necro was wearing MF gear. The necro said he’d rather wear full MF gear and get more loot than running the dungeon twice for the same amount of loot. The two had some arguements while we’re trying to blast the wall and managed to clear it, but it took a lot longer than usual.

The next stage was the Cliffside. Going our way through, the necros were getting downed a lot and the party started prioritizing to rez them which slowed down the run significantly. We reached the arms seal and that’s where the the fights went uphill. The two necros who wore MF gear got melted in seconds even going with full hp and life force each encounter. The party just couldn’t get past through and finally we plead for the two players who wore MF to swap gear. There wasn’t any response which led me to believe all they had were that MF gear they were wearing. After a few more wipes, we suddenly got booted out of the dungeon and realized the member who was flashing out the loot he obtained earlier who had full MF gear on was the dungeon starter who left. Everyone remaining in the party got pissed because that was the third stage and we were nearly done.

I have a full Exotic crafted set, two sets of exotic weapons(both dual pistols) and exotic shield and rifle for my engineer. I also have a full set of Rare crafted MF gear and currently working on affording a second set that is exotic and will suit me better.

Currently I loose around 10% DPS, due to Rare instead of exotic and other than that I loose around 3k in HP. So how is this really selfish? When I finish my full Exotic MF set I will do as much DPS as currently and be 3k HP shy of my other armor. I still die fewer times than most people in my groups just due to a more careful playstyle. If I find myself dying to often I switch my gear of which I have only done once.

It might be a bit selfish but I put the time and money into crafting my MF gear, putting the money into my Exotic MF gear, why should I share that stat with you for you get to better drops? Is that selfish, sure, but you asking others to share in something you didnt work for is too.

@Tinni and KyleQuest

Do yourselves the favor of rereading just this one page.

Do you know how it looks when at this point you present such arguments?
It’s like when some people are debating over taxes, and you two take a microphone and shout in it “I LOVE CHOCOLATE!”.

There really isn’t anything more to say.Your arguments have been discussed and beaten.And jealousy?Really?The mere fact that you don’t like being slowed down by xxx amount of time just because someone is deliberately slowing the group for loot is jealously?I don’t even…

Just give us inspect feature and problem solved…those who want MF gear will get to group up with MF players…easy fix.

What’s the complain about having inspect feature? That people can’t lie anymore to leech groups? If MF gear is so good then why don’t these kind of players make full MF parties? Oh…right…it’s because it would take them two or three times more time to complete a dungeon.

The argument about people not inviting new players is invalid…because people right now could kick anyone with low achievements anyways…and i’ve yet to see people who really cares about players not having yet full exotic gear. The thing is that any of these new players with green gear proper for their build can support more their party than someone using MF gear with random stats for their build.

So a few cents of me chipping in:
1. Wearing MF gear is not selfish. Its a same choice as wearing full power gear, full precision gear or melee weapon sets only. The complexity of determining that or other build is mathematically superior is imense on its own, without taking out what could or could not be replaced by MF. So the only way to judge would be to run ALL dungeons with ALL class combinations with ALL build variants with at least 2 sets. Come back with your claim that MF corresponds to slower runs when you can prove that statistically for every build.
2. The argument that you are loosing time/efficiency due to having MF is an invalid generalization. Dungeon run does not compose of XXX hp you have to whittle down, and YYY dmg you have to endure/block/dodge. Even if you could prove that on a dps dummy you loose 5-15% overall dps, which obviously is not true for all build variants, that does not have to translate to the same % quicker dungeon. I ll give you a quick numerical example so you can follow:
Two players meet a monster with 900hp. First does 200dmg every second, the other does 180 dmg every second. In your logic, where dungeon has generic XXX hp to be whittled down by your combined stats and dps, first player is more efficient because he has more dps. In real life or in game, due to existance of multiple caps, both are actually equally good, killing each such monster in 5 seconds. 10% dps difference, 0% time difference.
Its easy to directly translate stat loss into time loss because it seems the connection seems simple. It is not, due to complexity of mechanics involved, on more levels then just numerical damage calculations.
3.There is no reason to discriminate between two groups where one does dungeon X minutes faster then the other, in a PUG. You PUG, you accept what it entails, not enforce the group to be your slaves. PERIOD. You want strict control over what other people do, go into a legaly binding contract with them. Sounds extremely silly and elitist when put into context of playing a game for fun.
4. And finally. Anyone with an ounce of brain, should be able to reason out why MF is just a bad stat for any game, and should not have ever been added to a game with personal loot-tables.

1. Wearing MF gear is not selfish.

Of course it is.
You build your toon around a stat that benefits only you, completely not affecting others, consciously bringing less stats that do somehow affect others in a positive way.
You lose out on a major stat that would make you more durable or let you deal more damage – both of which speed up things for everyone – just to bring a stat that might benefit only you.
It’s not down to min/maxing, it’s not down to ‘people with mf can’t complete dungeons’, it’s not down to ’it’s so much slower’. It’s first and foremost about being rude when you consciously drag your party down – and not to test out a new build or something, but because of your own greed, bringing a stat that benefits only you while you could have brought something nice for everyone.

Anyone saying that ‘mf is not selfish’ should take their head out of their kitten and start thinking again.

Being greedy and selfish is the biggest problem i have with people bringing mf to dungeons. I refuse to group up with greedy, selfish and lazy people. I’m fine with rookies, newbies, people not rich enough to buy decent gear, casuals who still need more tokens/gold – no problem, as long as they listen and follow the tactics, aka aren’t rude.
Dragging down party performance, being downed more often, making everything longer – that comes next to simply being a greedy prick, especially that it’s a conscious choice.

I had a fractal group earlier which was the slowest group I have ever been in, I mentioned it and 2 people said they were in mf gear. The amount of stats you give up for mf is huge, and it’s selfish because it makes your group worse for your own benefit.

Then I immediately blocked them so I never have to run with them again, even though most of the time I’m not pugging.

Rogacz.9865:

So a few cents of me chipping in:

Two players meet a monster with 900hp. First does 200dmg every second, the other does 180 dmg every second. In your logic, where dungeon has generic XXX hp to be whittled down by your combined stats and dps, first player is more efficient because he has more dps. In real life or in game, due to existance of multiple caps, both are actually equally good, killing each such monster in 5 seconds. 10% dps difference, 0% time difference.
Its easy to directly translate stat loss into time loss because it seems the connection seems simple. It is not, due to complexity of mechanics involved, on more levels then just numerical damage calculations.

There’s a time difference involved >.> Just because your counting in whole numbers doesn’t mean others aren’t

Edit: Also, on top of that, let’s scales the mobs health to 1800, then 2700… what’s the difference between the two dps now?